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Syrian Gov't Agrees To Russian Chem-Weapon Turnover Plan

CNN reports that at least for now we may be able to set aside the question of whether and under what authority the U.S. should intervene militarily in Syria, a question that's dominated the news for the last few weeks. From the report: "Facing the threat of a U.S. military strike, the country's leaders Tuesday reportedly accepted a Russian proposal to turn over its chemical weapons. ... The development, reported by Syrian state television and Russia's Interfax news agency, came a day after the idea bubbled up in the wake of what appeared to be a gaffe by U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry. It quickly changed the debate in Washington from 'Should the U.S. attack?' to 'Is there a diplomatic way out of this mess?' Syrian Foreign Minister Foreign Minister Walid Moallem said Tuesday his country had agreed to the Russian proposal after what Interfax quoted him as calling 'a very fruitful round of talks' with Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov on Monday. Details of such a transfer have yet to be worked out, such as where the arms would go, who would safeguard them and how the world could be sure Syria had handed over its entire stockpile of chemical weapons."

246 of 362 comments (clear)

  1. Sounds promising by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 2

    I wonder what Assad will get in return. I suppose more tanks is better than continued nerve gas attacks.

    1. Re:Sounds promising by MightyYar · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I wonder if this was his plan all along - a way to keep the West out of his civil war. Do something completely outrageous, seemingly capitulate to a demand that you didn't really want to violate anyway, and then be left off in a better position than you were before you used the chemical weapons. As a bonus, you no longer have to worry about guarding these things against the rebels.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    2. Re:Sounds promising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It does sound promising. But I'd want to see it actually happening, promptly. I'd also be demanding the person responsible for deploying the weapons in Damascus be turned over to the international criminal court if I knew who that person was, or who was in charge of the particular military unit responsible. If Assad himself didn't order it (as he is claiming), fine. Then turn over the person who did.

    3. Re:Sounds promising by Talderas · · Score: 5, Interesting

      On the other hand, the rebels could have pilfered chemical weapons when they took over a Syrian base in Sep 2012 then used the weapons in an attempt to provoke a western response in order to give them an advantage.

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
    4. Re:Sounds promising by h4rr4r · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It is possible that no one in Assad's forces is responsible. This is a multiparty civil war in which it is quite possible that one group has gained access to these weapons to have a plausible way to strike their enemies and blame the attack on another enemy which is their enemy.

    5. Re:Sounds promising by erikkemperman · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'm curious, why do you take this as a confession, on the part of Assad's regime, that they were responsible for the August attacks?

      As far as I know, they have vehemently denied it. Which doesn't mean much, but then again the rebels seem a pretty nasty bunch as well.

      Basically the only ones who claim to know for sure is the US govt -- and now they seem to be less sure of that as before (or maybe they honestly still expected anyone to take their word for it, before being disappointment to find themselves alone in the bomb-first-ask-questions-later camp).

      --
      Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
    6. Re:Sounds promising by Seumas · · Score: 1

      Agreed. It sounds promising. I mean, what could go wrong with giving the Russians chemical weapons when they have a history of not keeping track of anything else that is weaponized, as it is?

      And, hey, getting whatever Assad may or may not have will totally be the solution if it turns out that it was actually the rebels who were using chemical weapons, as has been asserted.

    7. Re:Sounds promising by Seumas · · Score: 1, Informative

      Let's not act like Russia and Syria couldn't have been together on this from the beginning. Russia has proven rather adept at making America come across as the fool we are, recently. Just think back to the fake story about the Brazilian president's plane being ordered to land because of Snowden, by the USA? . . . that never happened, if you listen to the actual audio (which, strangely, no news organization ever bothered to play).

      As an American, I find it all rather amusing. Finally time for us to look as stupid and impotent as we actually are.

    8. Re:Sounds promising by TheCarp · · Score: 2

      > As far as I know, they have vehemently denied it. Which doesn't mean much, but then again
      > the rebels seem a pretty nasty bunch as well

      There is now even another report: http://rt.com/news/chemical-weapons-rebels-captives-632/?utm_source=browser&utm_medium=aplication_chrome&utm_campaign=chrome

      Recently released hostages (reportedly) of the rebels claim to have overheard skype conversations where rebels talk about the attacks as a false flag provocation tactic.

      Is it true? Dunno, did they really overhear conversations? If so, were they really held by the rebels or is this some sort of disinfo aimed at creating the perception of a false flag?

      Beats me, anything is possible. The regime did it is a very simple answer but, we have no way yet to know if it is the right one.

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    9. Re:Sounds promising by Antipater · · Score: 5, Informative

      Human Rights Watch just posted the results of their own analysis. They say it was Assad and not the rebels, mainly because the rebels are not known to have 140mm or 330mm rockets or their associated equipment.

      --
      Everything is better with chainsaws.
    10. Re:Sounds promising by larry+bagina · · Score: 2

      If it was skype, the NSA would know. Right? Maybe they're too busy monitoring my /. posts.

      James Clapper: professional pervert.

      --
      Do you even lift?

      These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

    11. Re:Sounds promising by dbIII · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Or some ruthless bastard that has the weapons could have just used them to win at all costs - no need to look for something complex when there's plenty of simple reasons.

    12. Re: Sounds promising by sumdumass · · Score: 2

      No, the iraq wmd story was a democtat stumping point just a few years before bush wad even elected. Being wrong doesn't make something a lie. Ignoring all the democrats who just years before iraq war who said wmds were or were likely to be in iraq in order to keep some ideology alive is.

    13. Re:Sounds promising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Russia and Syria together on this from the beginning? America makes itself look like a fool for doing nothing but the bidding of Saudi Arabia and Israel in their war against Arab secular states and/Shite Islam.....you should check your facts about that Snowden plane fiasco...first it was the Bolivian presidents plane and second it DID happen....

    14. Re:Sounds promising by interkin3tic · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The first casualty in war is truth. We may never know for CERTAIN that Assad did it. However, it seems unlikely that this was rebels targeting themselves with chemical weapons. For one thing, the rebels are only known by independent groups to have had miniscule amounts of chemical weapons, they never were known to be armed with the attacks that occurred. For another, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to have killed thousands of their own just to try to paint it on Assad.

      Honestly I forget the details that I did read about the attacks, and can't keep Sunni and Shiite apart, but I remember hearing someone explain it and explained why it was much more likely that the chem attacks were Assad rather than the rebels. Again, no certainty, but you're never going to get that even WITH a confession: whoever wins is going to wring a confession from the loser.

    15. Re:Sounds promising by Antipater · · Score: 1

      Well, I'm no rocket expert. But there's a diagram in the linked report of the remnants of the 330mm rocket, and it makes a pretty convincing case that the rocket was loaded with chemical weapons and not with explosives.

      --
      Everything is better with chainsaws.
    16. Re: Sounds promising by erikkemperman · · Score: 1

      Being wrong doesn't make something a lie.

      Oh that's priceless!

      --
      Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
    17. Re:Sounds promising by evilRhino · · Score: 1

      Both Bush administrations lined up international support from multiple countries (false childish cries of "unilateral" notwithstanding...), actually held a public debate, then got UN and Congressional approval.

      Obama in Syria? One fumble after another. Issuing a "red line" that could not be enforced. When that red line was crossed, futz around for weeks. Have the UN, NATO, and everyone else pretty much tell Obama to pound sand. Be about to get his ass handed to him in Congress. Then get snookered by Putin/Assad.

      Just because Obama probably isn't on the level here doesn't mean that going to war in Iraq based on obviously fake evidence was any better, no matter how many people fell for it.

    18. Re:Sounds promising by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      Or the rebels could have been trying to gas the Syrian military with the stolen chemicals but ended up gassing themselves. Never ascribe to mere malice what you can ascribe to malice and stupidity.

    19. Re:Sounds promising by gtall · · Score: 1

      Russia may give him more tanks, but they'd just give them to him anyway if that is in the cards. Assad's problem is that he cannot pay for them, and Russia wants paying now for just about everything. Putin probably realizes the biggest problem with Assad's chem. weap. is that they may not remain Assad's. Last we checked, Russia had its own share of Islamic terrorists to contend with and they'd have no problem using them against Russian civilians. That would make Putin look bad, well, even worse than he currently looks.

      What upsets Putin and China is that the U.S. taking a swing at Syria leads them to think that the U.S. wouldn't mind interfering in their own relations with other countries. Putin has the Soviet Empire he's trying to put back together, and China is busy threatening its neighbors and has every intention of taking Taiwan just as soon as it can get away with it, i.e., with a weakened U.S. that cannot or will not respond.

    20. Re:Sounds promising by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      I'm curious, why do you take this as a confession, on the part of Assad's regime, that they were responsible for the August attacks?

      I think you mistake my speculation for some firm belief. On one side, we have a brutal dictatorship with a history of disregard for human life. On the other, we have leaked and shared intelligence from sources with a very spotty track record. I honestly have no idea what is going on, and you don't either. I'm just having some fun speculating, but I don't think my speculation is too far-fetched.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    21. Re:Sounds promising by gtall · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Lessee, say you are a basic Syrian rebel, maybe with Al Qaeda or not. You get some really fancy chem weapons (and these were upgraded weapons carrying Syrian developed upgrades). Do you (a) kill your own supporters and their women and children thereby antagonizing the lot keeping you in business in the vague hope to draw in the U.S. (recognizing that Assad has used them frequently before and nothing bad happened to him), or (b) knock of a bunch of Syrian soldiers which would gain you battlefield advantage and demoralize Assad's troops. Decisions, decisions...

    22. Re: Sounds promising by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      Even better than this new nickname.

      before bush wad even elected.

      Shut up, you Bush wad.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    23. Re:Sounds promising by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Yup! And you can't even apply Occam's Razor here, because either side could be motivated. It could also be a mistaken release. We mere proles simply don't have enough information... this is all speculation.

      I will say, though, that there are some indications that rockets were used to deliver the chemicals, and the rebels do not seem to have much heavy weaponry.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    24. Re: Sounds promising by techneeks · · Score: 2, Insightful

      you sir are a polarizing fuck. haven't we discussed this enough that there is no difference between Republican and Democrats? they all want the same things, enslave the people and horde as much power as possible. so please take your ignorant rhetoric somewhere else.

    25. Re:Sounds promising by Dishevel · · Score: 2
      With 40 more months of Obama we all know that Taiwan is already gone. I just hope that Obama can learn fast enough and well enough that Iran and North Korea do not go ape shit. I do not think Obama has been a good president. I did not vote for him either time.

      I though do not want to see him fail here. All Americans need Obama to get better quickly and to not fail any further on foreign policy. He needs to step up and Be the leader of the free world. He choose it. Now he needs to step up and do it. He will not be removed from office so he needs to succeed here.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    26. Re:Sounds promising by MightyYar · · Score: 3, Interesting

      For reasons I dont claim to understand a very powerful section of those who hold the power in the USA want a war.

      If Assad goes down, so does Hezbollah. And of course, it puts Iran in a difficult position and gets rid of a Russian ally on NATO's border. But I think Israeli security would be the key benefit they are chasing.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    27. Re:Sounds promising by wmac1 · · Score: 1

      I did not see rebels die. There were all kids and women and civilian.

    28. Re:Sounds promising by sociocapitalist · · Score: 1

      It is possible that no one in Assad's forces is responsible. This is a multiparty civil war in which it is quite possible that one group has gained access to these weapons to have a plausible way to strike their enemies and blame the attack on another enemy which is their enemy.

      It is also possible that there is no civil war at all in Syria and that this is all a big tourism building publicity stunt.

      Not very likely, but possible nonetheless.

      Occam's razor applies.

      --
      blindly antisocialist = antisocial
    29. Re:Sounds promising by HornWumpus · · Score: 2

      Imagine you're a rebel with a camera. Which way would you point it?

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    30. Re:Sounds promising by h4rr4r · · Score: 2

      Let's say you are your basic Sunni/Shia/other nutbag group and you can kill your rivals and blame it on the government you hate, why not?

    31. Re:Sounds promising by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Israelis are thinking about Lebanon. Hezbollah won't 'go down', they will continue to get support from Iran. But it will hurt them. Especially if some sort of stability returns to Lebanon.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    32. Re: Sounds promising by dgatwood · · Score: 5, Informative

      Being wrong doesn't make something a lie.

      Oh that's priceless!

      It is, in fact, accurate. A lie is a false statement told knowingly with intent to deceive. A false statement told unknowingly is merely a mistake. Repeating a particularly significant false statement without verifying its truthfulness is a big mistake, of course, and at a certain point, you might even conclude the person is guilty of willful ignorance, at which point it might arguably be considered a lie, but as a general rule, without the intent to deceive, a false statement is not a lie.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    33. Re:Sounds promising by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      The Taiwanese also have a large stock of chemical weapons.

      The Chinese can't afford a war. They will try to get Taiwan, HongKong style.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    34. Re:Sounds promising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm curious, why do you take this as a confession, on the part of Assad's regime, that they were responsible for the August attacks?

      At the end of the day he's still a dumb American liberal that will believe whatever the government says. FYI, he bought the Iraq WMD story too and voted for Obama twice.

      Except the Iraq WMD story was a conservative brainchild, dipshit.

      You fucking brain-dead, pap-regurgitating fucking useless wanker.

      That must be why Bill Clinton bombed Iraq in 1998:

      CLINTON: Good evening.

      Earlier today, I ordered America's armed forces to strike military and security targets in Iraq. They are joined by British forces. Their mission is to attack Iraq's nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs and its military capacity to threaten its neighbors.

      Their purpose is to protect the national interest of the United States, and indeed the interests of people throughout the Middle East and around the world.

      Saddam Hussein must not be allowed to threaten his neighbors or the world with nuclear arms, poison gas or biological weapons. ...

    35. Re:Sounds promising by thomasw_lrd · · Score: 1

      Some people think a war time economy is the best economy. It worked during the Great Depression, right? As long as they can keep writing blank checks to themselves they can amass even more money they can't spend in a lifetime.

    36. Re:Sounds promising by Toad-san · · Score: 1

      You have a very twisted mind. Except .. you may damned well be right!

      If Assad is that clever and devious, he's wasting his talents in that little Third World Middle East country.

    37. Re:Sounds promising by MysteriousPreacher · · Score: 1

      The Chinese can't afford a war. They will try to get Taiwan, HongKong style.

      How did they get Hong Kong?

      --
      -- Using the preview button since 2005
    38. Re:Sounds promising by dkleinsc · · Score: 2

      What's keeping the US out of Assad's civil war (officially at least) is good old uncle Vladimir up in Moscow. This agreements actually gets the US out of a jam, because they were putting themselves into a position where they would both have to attack because otherwise their threats weren't credible, and would have to not attack because it would start a much bigger fight with Russia. Of course, I'm sure there are elements in the US who want to blow something up and would be disappointed in a diplomatic solution.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    39. Re:Sounds promising by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 2

      For reasons I dont claim to understand a very powerful section of those who hold the power in the USA want a war.

      If Assad goes down, so does Hezbollah. And of course, it puts Iran in a difficult position and gets rid of a Russian ally on NATO's border. But I think Israeli security would be the key benefit they are chasing.

      There's an even simpler explanation:

      The Syrian uprising has been going on for a while now; the aggressive US stance happened after what notable event? Ed Snowden's leaks. There's been a global souring against the US intelligence gathering; what the US needs right now is to shift the focus to something else where American Might and Right are unquestionable. Talking about Syria keeps people from talking about intelligence gathering (or at least from talking about it as much). You don't insist on reforming the intelligence system during a time of war.

      Utter speculation, but it fits.

    40. Re:Sounds promising by cayenne8 · · Score: 5, Interesting
      Either way.

      Obama lucked into an "out" for the predicament he put himself in by drawing the 'red lines' without first thinking through the implications if he was ever called on it.

      He is one lucky SOB, that's for sure....an on camera/mike gaffe essentially by Kerry yesterday, turned into a way out for the administration.

      If they will do this and confirm it, then it is likely the best thing that would happen, get the chemical weapons out, destroy them and keep them out of the hands of Asad (if he wins) or out of the terrorist groups if they win out.

      But man, Big O got lucky again on this one, and look, the media coverage on this has dropped the:

      1. IRS scandals

      2. NSA privacy breach scandals

      3. The hunt and loss of Snowden

      4. The upcoming problems and costs assoc. with Obamacare implementation.

      On that last one, he gets another gift, this time from the CBO...saying he can save about $35B or so over the next 10 years, if he also puts off the individual mandate for a year.....and doing that will possibly save Dem. seats up for grabs in 2014.

      He is sure a lucky one....

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    41. Re: Sounds promising by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      Personally, I prefer Bush and Shrub.

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    42. Re:Sounds promising by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Note that "the Rebels" is NOT a single group. It is a multitude of groups, many with competing interests.

      It might not make sense to kill thousands of your own, but tossing some gas into an area controlled by THOSE OTHER rebels and blaming Assad might work for some of those clowns.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    43. Re:Sounds promising by Megane · · Score: 1

      tl;dr: This administration has been like a puppy mill of dogs to wag.

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    44. Re:Sounds promising by erroneus · · Score: 1

      The US uses chemical weapons too. I don't see the big deal. We pepper sovereign nations with depleted uranium and bomb people with white phospher. I'd say that qualifies under the definition of chemical weapons. If not, then certainly under other horrifying definitions.

      In any case, when comparing other humanitarian causes to that of Syria, the ones in Africa are far worse and simply go ignored. I am doubly amazed. I am amazed that the US government can offer the causes they do with a straight face and I am amazed that people seriously buy into it.

    45. Re:Sounds promising by erroneus · · Score: 1

      He doesn't WANT out. Or perhaps the people pulling his strings don't want him out.

    46. Re:Sounds promising by Megane · · Score: 1

      You seem to be of the opinion that there are only two sides to this conflict.

      I see it as likely to be a rebel group thinking "We can gas those infidels we hate over there, and Assad (who we also hate) will get blamed for it. Win, win!"

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    47. Re:Sounds promising by Yomers · · Score: 2

      It all depends on who you believe, we get all information (pro and anti strike) from biased sources, I did not expect anything else from HWR - article is written in classical style, to get emotional response. Check out this link http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/15496841-hostages-piccinin-quirico-heard-syrian-rebels-say-assad-not-responsible-for-chemical-attack.

      It's propaganda war, only thing that we can be sure is that we do not know what really happens there. I think it's more probable that rebels used chemical weapons to frame Assad, just because it makes more sense - they are the loosing side and need US to intervene.

    48. Re:Sounds promising by evilRhino · · Score: 1

      The Iraq war intelligence is obviously fake to everyone, seeing as the man that manufactured it admitted to faking them. http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB234/index.htm There is no evidence that the actions of Bush I or Clinton were based on false evidence.

    49. Re:Sounds promising by Megane · · Score: 1

      How did they get Hong Kong?

      Wasn't it an all-out land invasion in which thousands died? Oh wait.

      GP is either an idiot or actually expects China to lease areas adjacent to Taiwan, wait for the lease to expire, then when the lease expires, it becomes too complicated to return the leased area separately from Taiwan. (And wow, the HK situation was not as simple I thought it was. I thought HK was under the 99 year lease.)

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    50. Re:Sounds promising by LetterRip · · Score: 3, Informative

      Well, I'm no rocket expert. But there's a diagram in the linked report of the remnants of the 330mm rocket, and it makes a pretty convincing case that the rocket was loaded with chemical weapons and not with explosives.

      Jane's did an analysis and basically concluded that the rockets could be chemical, Fuel Air Explosive, or conventional explosive with equal plausibility without any reason to conclude one was more likely than the other. FAE and some conventional explosives can evaporate/dissipate thus the hollow area that humanrights watch is claiming is chemical -can equally likely be the fuel for a fuel air explosive or a conventional explosive.

      http://www.janes.com/article/26414/syrian-military-allegedly-used-makeshift-rockets-in-chemical-attack

    51. Re:Sounds promising by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Peacefully/diplomatically, without destroying the very thing they want to get you dolt.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    52. Re:Sounds promising by ai4px · · Score: 1

      Alex, I'll take A for $100.... kill a handful of my own people with the knowledge that the big bully will come finish the fight for me. Sometimes you have to lose the battle to win the war.

    53. Re:Sounds promising by HaZardman27 · · Score: 1

      When military strikes are on the horizon, I think it's important to consider all options before pulling the trigger.

      --
      Apparently wizard is not a legitimate career path, so I chose programmer instead.
    54. Re:Sounds promising by Yomers · · Score: 1

      Honestly I forget the details that I did read about the attacks, and can't keep Sunni and Shiite apart, but I remember hearing someone explain it and explained why it was much more likely that the chem attacks were Assad rather than the rebels.

      LOL, that is a good example of modern journalism - you do not know why, but somehow you believe it's true, because some smart looking people with serious faces was discussing the issue on TV and came to this conclusion, or maybe your read article in reputable newspaper written by 'doctor of middle-eastern affairs' who surely understand all this Sunni and Shiite relations and stuff like this?

    55. Re:Sounds promising by pnutjam · · Score: 3, Funny

      I'm not sure the liberal would have done this. They seem like good people.

      I'd watch out for the "libtards" though, whatever those are, they sound pretty bad from what I have been reading on here and the Fox news commentary section.

    56. Re:Sounds promising by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      nits make lice..

      Seems to be the operating principle of most totalitarian governments.

    57. Re: Sounds promising by erikkemperman · · Score: 1

      Yes, I suppose you are technically correct. Malice or incompetence, and all that. The problem is though, that incompetence becomes too easy an out if it is basically never challenged and remains unpunished (eg Clapper).

      --
      Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
    58. Re:Sounds promising by schnell · · Score: 3, Funny

      He doesn't WANT out. Or perhaps the people pulling his strings don't want him out.

      Or what about if the people who pull the strings of the people who pull the strings of Obama DO want out? Or what if the gray aliens DON'T want out but the lizard people and Freemasons DO want out? THEN what do the people who pull the strings of the people who pull Obama's strings do? Or maybe the Obama is pulling THEIR strings, and he's ambivalent and letting the lizard people take the fall?

      --
      "95% of all Slashdot .sig quotes are incorrect or completely fabricated." -Benjamin Franklin
    59. Re:Sounds promising by msobkow · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problem is that no matter what chemical weapons were used, the rebels could have gotten not only the weapons, but the launchers from whoever provided them. There are many countries in the world with chemical weapons and launchers for them. Any one of them could, theoretically, have provided the rebels with such arms in order to launch a false-flag attack in hopes the Syrian government would be attacked by the US and others in response.

      There are several theories as to who might have done so that I've read, all of which are as reasonable (at least) as the idea of Assad suicidally using chemical weapons despite the threat of US intervention made long before they were used.

      I don't think anyone knows who used them, except those who used them. And they're not telling.

      I place absolutely zero faith in US "intelligence reports" after their WMD debacle for Iraq.

      --
      I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
    60. Re: Sounds promising by nbauman · · Score: 1, Interesting

      False equivalence. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/29/opinion/krugman-the-centrist-cop-out.html

      The Republicans are worse.

      In addition to everything the Democrats do, the Republicans want to destroy the government, take away your right to abortion, and abandon the poor to die.

    61. Re:Sounds promising by Dishevel · · Score: 1
      They have been playing the long game.

      I am not convinced at all that Obama would risk US casualties for Taiwan. Are you?

      More to the point... Is China?

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    62. Re:Sounds promising by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      You assume my source was making an appeal to authority, and that it was on TV. Neither one of those things are true. I know I was convinced at one point, and admitted I could be wrong.

      If you think admitting you don't know everything is a weakness then please, don't vote in any elections ever.

    63. Re:Sounds promising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "They say it was Assad and not the rebels"

      The clear-cut sides you can see in Hollywood productions and militaristic propaganda the US is spewing out these days is seldom to be found in the real world. The question "who did it, Assad or the rebels" misses the whole reality on the ground: a sectarian civil war where neither side is righteous or well organized.

      Damascus' control over it's own military is tenuous at best and it well may be that 2nd rank Alawite leaders are struggling in the background to seize power from Assad, while fighting alongside him against the Sunni. I believe the chemical incident was such an event - there was no order from Assad who clearly understands the fragility of his diplomatic position, yet leaders on the ground independently decided that any means are justified in what they consider a 'just cause', murdering as much Sunni as possible.

      The only potential for military intervention is a peace keeping mission, a forced cease fire and disarmament and a transitional government. Taking the side of anyone in this madness is a recipe for a humanitarian disaster. Of course, no one realy wants such a mission, the involved powers simply desire their own dog to win and improve their own possition in the area.

    64. Re: Sounds promising by White+Jesus · · Score: 1

      Or maybe the government is lying to go to war *again*--just like they have been constantly and consistently since(at least) Vietnam?

    65. Re:Sounds promising by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

      I believe that if one listens clearly, that the general that did the dirty deed will be fired, maybe Sirian style? Basically, Assad threw one of his generals under the bus. Which means Assad gets to keep his air force and artillery just a little bit longer.

      I can't help but wonder if the bears at Port Tartus have good enough, and enough gas masks just in case a siren sounds?

    66. Re: Sounds promising by HornWumpus · · Score: 2

      So was it malice or incompetence that had you calling out only one of many people who were wrong?

      Seeing as it was the only the political party you hate, I'm going with malice.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    67. Re:Sounds promising by MysteriousPreacher · · Score: 1

      That's why I asked. The Hong Kong situation was very different, but I agree that it will most likely be a peaceful reunion.

      --
      -- Using the preview button since 2005
    68. Re:Sounds promising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      If you look at the map of Syria, what you see is that all Assad has left is a crescent-shaped piece in the northwest of the country between Damascus and Aleppo. The only link between them is a highway, and the rebels were threatening to cut that highway link. The chemical attack was precisely targeted to push the rebels back from that highway so Assad could continue to maintain lines of supply and maneuver between Damascus and Aleppo. The attack also reopened the highway between Damascus and the airport.

      Occam's Razor applies here: from a military standpoint, it makes perfect sense for the Assad regime to have made this carefully-targeted attack; from a military standpoint, it makes no sense for the rebels to make the attack at this place given that it is where they were about to sever the last link between Assad's two remaining strongpoints and keep him cut off from the airport.

      The map is here, and this one tracks well with maps from multiple other sources. Aleppo is north and off the map, but you can see the highway leading to it; the airport is off the map to the southeast and you can see the road leading to it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ghouta_chemical_attack_map.svg

    69. Re: Sounds promising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Vietnam? Try World War I. Google the Zimmerman telegram.

    70. Re:Sounds promising by Guppy · · Score: 1

      Basically the only ones who claim to know for sure is the US govt

      Russian govt as well -- if they don't have Syrian communications thoroughly compromised at this point, then Putin needs to shoot whoever is in charge of the job.

      Of course, what their government chooses to say to the rest of the world is an entirely different matter from what they know, and this goes for any of the major global powers.

    71. Re: Sounds promising by Gryle · · Score: 1

      Unless I'm misremembering, the Zimmerman telegram was real. I think, dear AC, you are confusing the Zimmerman telegram with the USS Maine incident prior to the Spanish-American war.

      --
      Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not entirely sure about the universe - Einstein
    72. Re:Sounds promising by stdarg · · Score: 1

      The Taiwanese also have a large stock of chemical weapons.

      Well shit maybe Obama will bomb Taiwan for the Chinese.

    73. Re:Sounds promising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Or some ruthless bastard that has the weapons could have just used them to win at all costs - no need to look for something complex when there's plenty of simple reasons.

      The problem with that statement is that Assad was winning. When Hezbollah entered the battle (likely at the behest of Iran), it freed up some of Assad's units and he could concentrate more of his forces. He still controls over 60% of the population, all the major ports, has better conventional weapons, more firepower and his units are organized around a common command structure, none of which can be said about the rebels and they were losing. He had no reason to use the chemical weapons, and doing so would only invite a US strike as Obama basically said.

      On the other hand, the rebels who were losing, have likely captured some chemical weapons, and are about 25-30% composed of ideological driven jihadist fighters who have an ends-justifies-the-means mentality know, thanks to Obama, that if it appears the Syrian Government used chemical weapons, they'd attack him.

      Sure, no one has evidence either way, so you can only go on intuition. The three key features are motive, ability, and a willingness to use the weapons. Assad had the ability, was likely willing to use them, but had no motive to do so as it would invite a response counter to his interests. The rebels on the other hand had motive, have the willingness, and quite possibly have the ability.

    74. Re:Sounds promising by Dishevel · · Score: 1
      You can feel that way all you want AC. The fact is that till this Buffoon came into office it was in fact true.

      The US led the world. So take your Western European ass and spend your time fixing Greece, Spain and France. Keep them from going under and ... Fuck You.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    75. Re:Sounds promising by shia84 · · Score: 1

      Since it would be patently stupid for the Syrian regime to deploy chemical weapons given the current situation, and we can agree that Assad is somewhat intelligent (regardless of him being an asshole), wouldn't Occam's Razor dictate that the CIA had clandestine agents deploy the weapons against the Syrians in order to facilitate a strike?
      They have the intelligence, agents, capability and most of all motivation. It's against some foreign population, which has been shown they don't really care about. At a very convenient point in time for the USA.

      The CIA or Mossad are the most likely candidate, so that would actually be the simplest explanation, no?

      </DevilsAdvocate>

    76. Re:Sounds promising by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      He doesn't WANT out. Or perhaps the people pulling his strings don't want him out.

      I said "an out"....not just out.

      That means he found a way out of the hole he dug for himself, with his toothless threats.

      I meant he stumbled upon a possible way to accomplish something in spite of himself, I think on TV they called it pulling a Homer (Simpson).

      :)

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    77. Re:Sounds promising by igny · · Score: 1

      From what I read in Russian analytics reports, rebels are unlikely to have this done independently from their Saudi supporters. Moreover by simple logic of "who would have benefited the most from the chemical attack", one can easily conclude that the Saudi intelligence forces were likely to be involved. The Saudi either directly helped the rebels to deploy and use the chemical weapons, or bribed some traitors in Syrian forces to pull the trigger. A few million dollars would surely do the trick. A few million dollars could easily make rebels gas themselves too.

      What's Saudi interest in here? They clearly tried to manipulate US to attack Syria and as a result endanger upcoming US-Iranian talks. Both Iran and Syria would lose in case of the US attack, and Israel together with Saudi Arabia would benefit the most.

      --
      In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is. - Yogi Berra
    78. Re:Sounds promising by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      He was already winning. He's also not an idiot, and was aware of Obama's ultimatum. Why play a highly risky gamble to only slightly improve your already high chances for success, when the losing bid is literally losing everything?

    79. Re:Sounds promising by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Are you saying that Obama now owes a big one to Putin? Or maybe that he has already committed to pay?

    80. Re:Sounds promising by geekoid · · Score: 1

      except we have the orders, we have the training, we have them donning masks.

      Other than those facts you might have something!

      You aren't.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    81. Re:Sounds promising by geekoid · · Score: 1

      1) Not the office of the presidency. - Also as soon as it turned out it was a few people acting on their own in order to prioritize based on an influx of a political NFP applications. JSYN, it turns out they do this when ever their is any sudden infulx of a type of political NFP applications.
      It's actually a good use of resources. So, no real scandal. Naturally Fox immediately told every one the truth once they found out about it..oh wait.

      2) SA privacy is still on going. And it's been going on far longer than Obama, or Bush even. That said, over 100,000,000 legal searches and 22,000 searches that range from questionable to outright illegal. SO I tiny percentage. Oh, and the NSA tells the court of any misuses, and they take disciplinary actions. Hmm.

      3) Hunt? yeah, a warrant issued, some police action. For someone who broke the law.

      4) Obamacare - I wish we could smack people upside the head that talk about it and haven't read it. Anyways, ultimately it will be a savings.
      Not the healthcare plan I want, but a lot better the what we have now.

      He isn't lucky, we just have a bunch of people making shit up and over blowing everything and it doesn't pan out.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    82. Re:Sounds promising by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Wasn't toothless. The people by and large said 'woah', lets talk about this one and he did that.
      Like the previous president should have done, and hopefully the next one will do.

      It is funny watching Pub make up reason not to do this one they fly directly into the face of what they said for Iraq.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    83. Re:Sounds promising by geekoid · · Score: 1

      no. They have a ton of data vetted by international groups.
      This isn't 'Our CIA says 'x' so all you you in the international community must be wrong..whats that, you want to see the evidence? well mummble mummbly bomb.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    84. Re: Sounds promising by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Perhaps, but when your false statement leads to the death of 100,000 people, 500,000... who knows... don't you think you should at least be *investigated* as to whether you knowingly lied or not?

      I fully agree with you on that point. I strongly suspect that many of those folks involved did, in fact, lie. It is not an absolute given, though. They could merely have been grossly incompetent.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    85. Re:Sounds promising by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      You do realize the republicans supported Clinton bombing Iraq and that we had troops and expenditures specifically allocated to Iraq before we went to war with them right?

      What I'm getting at is that Iraq is/was in an entirely different league then Syria and they should not ever be compared for political purposes because they are so vastly different. What one group said for Iraq is completely irrelevant to Syria. It's like saying those it was funny watching them make up reasons why they didn't want to eat egg rolls at a greasy gas station along the highway when they ate them and sushi at Chang's last year.

    86. Re: Sounds promising by ganjadude · · Score: 1, Interesting

      destroy the government that is spying on all of us?? I call that a good thing

      take away your right to abortion? frankly if that is something that you base your vote on, you are an idiot anyway as that is not something that is a major voting issue, if you vote for or against someone based on abortion, you are a selfish prick.

      abandon the poor to die? citation please. and no im not looking for "cutting food stamps" or "want to push grandma over a cliff" bullshit that is normally used.

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    87. Re:Sounds promising by Mashiki · · Score: 2

      Hey remember the Bosnian civil war? You know the bosian muslims there shelled their own with chemical weapons as a pretext to get the west involved. He's not stupid, though he can be ruthless just like his father was. But there's no point in using chemical weapons to win, when you can use conventional weapons.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    88. Re:Sounds promising by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      However, it seems unlikely that this was rebels targeting themselves with chemical weapons.

      More likely than using chemical weapons when you're winning as opposed to last year when you were losing, in your capital city right next to your own forces? The same day that chemical weapons inspectors arrive? When a military power that has either bombed or bombed and occupied half a dozen Muslim countries has been shouting for six months that it would really really like to bomb you as well?

      Seems legit.

    89. Re:Sounds promising by elucido · · Score: 1

      The US uses chemical weapons too. I don't see the big deal. We pepper sovereign nations with depleted uranium and bomb people with white phospher. I'd say that qualifies under the definition of chemical weapons. If not, then certainly under other horrifying definitions.

      In any case, when comparing other humanitarian causes to that of Syria, the ones in Africa are far worse and simply go ignored. I am doubly amazed. I am amazed that the US government can offer the causes they do with a straight face and I am amazed that people seriously buy into it.

      When the US uses chemical weapons on you, then its a big deal?

    90. Re: Sounds promising by tsotha · · Score: 1

      It's also true.

    91. Re:Sounds promising by tsotha · · Score: 1

      The Russians already have more than twenty thousand tons of chemical weapons. Nothing they get from Syria is going to change the situation in Russia.

    92. Re:Sounds promising by dbIII · · Score: 1

      We don't know for sure who "he" is yet so we don't know if "He was already winning".

    93. Re:Sounds promising by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      I meant Assad. I very much doubt that a low-level commander could give such an order and have it actually followed... and even if he did, his head would be offered on a spike within a day by actual authorities.

    94. Re:Sounds promising by dbIII · · Score: 1

      We don't really know for sure it was Assad either although it's likely.

    95. Re:Sounds promising by gottabeme · · Score: 2

      4) Obamacare - I wish we could smack people upside the head that talk about it and haven't read it. Anyways, ultimately it will be a savings.
      Not the healthcare plan I want, but a lot better the what we have now.

      You mean like the people who voted for it? And aren't you one of those people, too? Or have you read all of its thousands of pages?

      Please explain to me how putting people out of work and forcing people to give up existing health insurance--which is happening right now, before the program even goes into effect--will ultimately be a savings.

      Even the congressmen who introduced the bill have said it's like an out-of-control train wreck! I suppose you know better than they do?

      --
      "Those who consume the bulk of goods are those who make them. We must never forget this secret of our prosperity."
    96. Re: Sounds promising by erikkemperman · · Score: 1

      Sorry HornWumpus, I realize this story is quite old now but only just noticed you had replied.

      So, just in case you get notifications... I'm honestly not sure what you mean by me "calling out". Do you mean the fact I mentioned Clapper as an example? I'm not even sure what his political affiliation is, but you are of course right; examples abound on both sides.

      Or did you rather mean my earlier post citing sumdumass (sic) above? I am also unaware of his preference, although his post was attacking Democrats so I guess you could take my reply as, therefore, somehow disparaging Republicans... But that only makes sense if you insist that we live in a binary world where everyone is 100% left or right, progressive or conservative, Democrat or Republican -- regardless of a specific topic at hand. I personally think that that is not very helpful, but I also see that much discussion of US politics is polarized to this alarming extent.

      Also, I am not sure how you got the idea that there is only one political party I "hate" -- disregarding for a moment that that is much too strong a word for my emotions toward any political party anywhere (save perhaps the white supremacists in South Africa in the 80s, or the religious fundamentalists in places like Tehran or Jerusalem).

      For what it is worth, I personally feel that both US parties are rather far to the right of my beliefs. So, for the record, I might agree that the Democratic party is slightly less hateworthy than the Republicans, but only just.

      --
      Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
    97. Re: Sounds promising by nbauman · · Score: 1

      abandon the poor to die? citation please. and no im not looking for "cutting food stamps" or "want to push grandma over a cliff" bullshit that is normally used.

      http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118781024289705455.html

    98. Re:Sounds promising by Gavagai80 · · Score: 1

      Even if the act was by government forces, that doesn't establish who actually ordered it. Government commanders at the front feeling they're about to lose may try something desperate like chemical weapons to save themselves without authorization. And if there's one thing that's obvious in Syria, it's that Assad does not have control of things-- that's why there's a civil war in the first place.

      --
      This space intentionally left blank
    99. Re:Sounds promising by erroneus · · Score: 1

      Oh okay... just poison.

    100. Re:Sounds promising by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Which Iraqi WMD story?

      Hussein had chemical weapons around 1990, and used them. This is pretty well established.

      Come 2003, the Republican administration claimed he had chemical weapons, on no good evidence. Lots of other people thought the Bush administration knew something they didn't. The US invaded Iraq, on dubious legal grounds, and didn't find the WMDs Bush had claimed. FWIW, an Iraqi official who defected to us claimed that Hussein had destroyed his stockpiles in the 90s, which is at least plausible. Hussein got some political benefits out of appearing to defy the West, quite likely without the possible embarrassment of them being found. A CIA unclassified publication at the time emphasized that Hussein might have WMD capability quite soon, but made no claims about current availability. (I read it online, and don't really remember any details about it.)

      Powell's "It Worked For Me" talks about his frustration at not having his own crack at the facts before his UN speech. I happened to pick it up as an audiobook, and could hear his tone of voice change as he read about it. Powell claims that his briefing from the administration was basically a lawyers' brief, intended to persuade without necessarily being accurate.

      The 2003 WMD story was a conservative fabrication, made plausible by the fact that it relied on earlier truth.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    101. Re:Sounds promising by bhiestand · · Score: 1

      I was taking you seriously until you said "know, thanks to Obama, that if it appears the Syrian Government used chemical weapons, they'd attack him."

      You mean Barrack Hussein Obama? The Muslim Kenyan Communist Jihadi? The Destroyer of Cute Kittens, White Woman Impregnator, and Overall Scariest Black Man Evar? Get over it.

      --
      SWM seeks new sig for a brief fling
    102. Re:Sounds promising by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      The definition of a chemical weapon is a weapon used because of toxicity. Plenty of weapons are incidentally poisonous, but as long as they're chosen for other reasons they don't count. War is a brutal business, and the laws of war can go only so far and still have some effect. Trying to ban weapons that are toxic would be useless, while banning weapons chosen for poison properties does some good. All weapons are horrifying to some extent, and that's not a good basis for banning something.

      Depleted uranium and white phosphorus have other useful properties, and depleted uranium is so expensive nobody would use it as a poison. (Ever priced it on eBay? Really expensive.)

      And, yes, the US doesn't really care about the suffering of others far away unless there's some geopolitical, strategic, or economic angle. This isn't a US thing, though. Lots of horrible things have gone on without international intervention.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    103. Re:Sounds promising by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      China's banking system is a mess. Huge nonperforming loan portfolios to children of the standing committee. Unbelievable real estate bubble. Perhaps Taiwan will save their asses when it collapses. Then again, most likely not.

      In any case nothing is going to happen between Taiwan and Mainland China until after things get very interesting indeed. I expect a capitalist revolution in China, in my lifetime.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  2. Or loudly, works too. by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

    "Speak softly and carry a big stick."

    --
    (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    1. Re:Or loudly, works too. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Once again proving that the US plays checkers while the Russians play chess.

    2. Re:Or loudly, works too. by SJHillman · · Score: 1

      Yes, but in Russian Chess, you do not capture your opponents pieces. You unload a light machine gun onto the chess board.

    3. Re:Or loudly, works too. by sycodon · · Score: 1

      Seems the Rodeo Clown had it right the entire time.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    4. Re:Or loudly, works too. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      > The US plays handegg, the Russians play chess. I'm sure you all know how the chess club stacks up against the football team.

      Yup, the football team are a bunch of overdeveloped bullies who peak in their teens and dominate their peers for a few years, then spend the rest of their lives drinking to compensate for their the inevitable slow downward slide into insignificance.

      The chess team are miserable in high school but then go to university, and thereafter enjoy successful careers and lives.

  3. I thought they denied having chemical weapons? by Trepidity · · Score: 1

    What are they negotiating the turn-over of, from their perspective?

    1. Re:I thought they denied having chemical weapons? by h4rr4r · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Nope, they admit to having them. They admit to having facilities to make them. They only deny having used them in this conflict.

    2. Re:I thought they denied having chemical weapons? by Arker · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You thought wrong.

      Syria has chemical weapons, and has declined to sign the chemical weapons treaty, so they have every right to keep them. What they have denied (quite credibly) is having *used* them.

      --
      =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
      Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
    3. Re:I thought they denied having chemical weapons? by idji · · Score: 1

      They have not denied having them, they have denied using them

    4. Re:I thought they denied having chemical weapons? by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      People throw the word "right" around too liberally. Rights are determined by others, or by a higher standard. At an international level, a country's "rights" are determined by others in the global playing field.

    5. Re:I thought they denied having chemical weapons? by skids · · Score: 1

      However, they have not declared them (which means enumerating them) to any external authority. Just to be specific.

    6. Re:I thought they denied having chemical weapons? by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Sure, but since they signed no treaties they are not bound too. The perks of having a country.

    7. Re:I thought they denied having chemical weapons? by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      If all countries but one agree that sarin is no longer allowed, that one country no longer has a right to sarin. It really doesnt matter what that one country thinks if it cannot defend its "right".

    8. Re:I thought they denied having chemical weapons? by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Sovereignty is determined by one's ability to maintain authority in an area. In a lot of cases this is determined by international politics, not by some arbitrary right.

    9. Re:I thought they denied having chemical weapons? by tinkerton · · Score: 1

      Quote from the OPCW:

      Syria is not a party to the Chemical Weapons Convention, but it is a party to the Geneva (Protocol) of 1925 which prohibits the use of chemical and biological weapons. So they have a clear obligation not to use chemical weapons in any circumstances.â

    10. Re:I thought they denied having chemical weapons? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Yes, they have an obligation to not use them - but not to "declare and enumerate" them.

    11. Re:I thought they denied having chemical weapons? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      It's not just one. The list is pretty short, actually, but one name on it is the one that will stop any attempts to pursue this line of reasoning in American politics at least: Israel.

    12. Re:I thought they denied having chemical weapons? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      look up the term "sovereignty".

      NO sovereign state (read country here) is under the rule of any other state unless it either first agrees to give up some or all sovereignty or it is taken from them (presumably by force). Until any of those happen, any country has the right to do anything it damn well pleases, including owning and possessing chemical or biological weapons.

      Most developed countries have Sarin or the capabilities to create it at a moments notice. This is generally kept as a defensive measure that will only be used should another country attack and use it.

    13. Re:I thought they denied having chemical weapons? by tsotha · · Score: 1

      No. Other people don't determine your rights. They only determine whether or not you'll be able to exercise your rights.

    14. Re:I thought they denied having chemical weapons? by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      I know what sovereignty is, and it depends in large part on ones ability to enforce it.

      any country has the right to do anything it damn well pleases

      Unless you are talking about "rights given by god", you are talking about a subjective thing that is absolutely defined in relation to other powers. The "rights" that Syria have depend on its relationship with the rest of the world, and are certainly not absolute.

      If you are saying "a right is something that it would be immoral for someone else to violate", perhaps we have something to work with-- but again, unless you are going with "morality given by god" (and Im not aware of the Bible speaking on morality in international relations), you are left with another arbitrary measure defined by people.

    15. Re:I thought they denied having chemical weapons? by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Do tell, where do rights at an international level come from?

    16. Re:I thought they denied having chemical weapons? by bhiestand · · Score: 1

      They have never denied having them. They just denied using them until recently. Just as the U.S. has them as well.

      Syria has repeatedly denied having chemical weapons. And when they haven't denied it, they haven't acknowledged it, either.

      2003
      2013

      --
      SWM seeks new sig for a brief fling
    17. Re:I thought they denied having chemical weapons? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      I know what sovereignty is, and it depends in large part on ones ability to enforce it.

      Not enforce but retain or keep it.

      Unless you are talking about "rights given by god", you are talking about a subjective thing that is absolutely defined in relation to other powers. The "rights" that Syria have depend on its relationship with the rest of the world, and are certainly not absolute.

      It doesn't matter who or what gave the rights to who. Sovereignty means you the sovereign (as in the country) gets to decide. They even have a right to take from other countries if they can or until someone takes their sovereignty from them. That's what is means to be sovereign- you decide for yourself and unless someone takes your sovereignty or parts of it away or you surrender it or parts of it, you get to decide at will.

      If you are saying "a right is something that it would be immoral for someone else to violate", perhaps we have something to work with-- but again, unless you are going with "morality given by god" (and Im not aware of the Bible speaking on morality in international relations), you are left with another arbitrary measure defined by people.

      It would be as immoral as taking their car or home from them.. Some cases you can justify that to the effect it wouldn't be immoral at all. Most cases, you cannot.

      Arbitrary is the point. They are a sovereign nation and decide for themselves however they want and when they decide they need to. No one can impose something on them unless they agree to it or we force them to follow our will. If they decide wrong (as in something we disagree with), we either need to convince them it is wrong and they need to surrender that part of sovereignty (sign a treaty) or we need to take it (presumably by force) from them.

  4. you have to kill people POLITELY by Joining+Yet+Again · · Score: 1, Troll

    This is Western rules of war! Pain and suffering must only be of a certain TYPE!

    BUY LOCKHEED. BUY BOEING.

    1. Re:you have to kill people POLITELY by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      The aversion to poisoning is not a Western tendency. Poison is the tool of the bad guy in stories from all over the globe. We seem to have an innate distaste for it.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    2. Re:you have to kill people POLITELY by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      I would have said, buy Raytheon, maker of the cruise missiles, but now, if this is settled, their stock will plummet. Peace is not good for their business.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    3. Re:you have to kill people POLITELY by LordLimecat · · Score: 2

      The idea behind the chemical weapon aversion AFAIK is that unlike bullets-- which are great on a battlefield-- chemical weapons have a tendency to be at least as damaging to the civilian populations as they are to the military, and often moreso.

      That is why many countries agreed to stop using them; waging war isnt going to stop, but we can try to prevent them from being Pyrrhic in all situations.

    4. Re:you have to kill people POLITELY by fliptout · · Score: 1

      No no- bacon flavor would make it palatable for Americans.

      --
      A witty saying proves you are wittier than the next guy.
    5. Re:you have to kill people POLITELY by Krojack · · Score: 4, Funny

      Bacon bombs? Sure you can drop a few on my house but I don't think the middle east would like them that much.

    6. Re:you have to kill people POLITELY by Aonghus142000 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually chemical weapons are much more damaging to civilians than they are to the military. A chemical weapons attack will degrade a military unit's effectiveness (although it tends to degrade both sides equally,) but beyond the odd slow or unlucky soldier, it is unlikely to cause more than a handful of casualties.

      Civilian populations, OTOH, tend to lack the protective gear and training in using it necessary to exist in a chemical environment. Not having a gas mask during a chemical attack is a bad way to be.

    7. Re:you have to kill people POLITELY by Megane · · Score: 1

      Jim Jones used grape Flavor-Aid.

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    8. Re:you have to kill people POLITELY by gagol · · Score: 1
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War#Iraqi_civilian_casualties

      It seems the US army is the biggest terrorist these days.

      --
      Tomorrow is another day...
    9. Re:you have to kill people POLITELY by MysteriousPreacher · · Score: 1

      Sure, if US forces as a matter of standard practice had been specifically targeting civillian non-combatants or if they have been reckless in preventing unnecessary deaths.

      --
      -- Using the preview button since 2005
    10. Re:you have to kill people POLITELY by msobkow · · Score: 1

      Somehow I doubt the common front-line soldier or rebel in Syria carries a gas mask, much less the anti-neurotoxin "pens" that are required for something like Sarin.

      --
      I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
    11. Re:you have to kill people POLITELY by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Exactly this.
      Smart bombs from 40000ft targeting specific enemies - brave, noble pilots.
      Suicide bombing innocent civilians attempting to influence a government or government policy- evil and cowardly terrrrists.

      There, FIFY.

    12. Re:you have to kill people POLITELY by runeghost · · Score: 1

      Unless it's the U.S. using it on plant life (that just might happen to have people in, near, or making a living from it) - then poison is just fine.

    13. Re:you have to kill people POLITELY by tsotha · · Score: 1

      Chemical weapons don't get used much because they're not very practical on the battlefield. How effective they are depends on too many factors beyond your control. You can't even be sure how long it will be before you can occupy the land you just gassed.

  5. Better then another war by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    First they protect a whistle-blower, then they work on getting chemical weapons out of Syria without causing hundreds of thousands of collateral casualties. Yet again Russia is working toward the moral high ground. If they just let up on homosexuals then my cold war anti-communism schooling will begin to unravel.

    1. Re:Better then another war by adisakp · · Score: 1

      While that seems to be the current spin on this, just a few days ago, everyone was reporting that it was Kerry that first mentioned this as an option -- Russia just ran with it once they had the chance. Not that it changes anything...I'm glad it seems to be working out in some sort of peaceful way.

      It's worth noting that Assad is basically in Putin's pocket since Russia supplies Syria with a large number of it's armaments. Syria is a good customer / proxy / puppet and it's in Putin's interest to have a peaceful resolution which leaves Assad in power.

    2. Re:Better then another war by larry+bagina · · Score: 1

      Kerry? The ass clown seems to be having a contest with Biden to see who can say the dumbest thing. Every time he or BH O'bama says something about Syria, the spinsters have to issue an update claiming they didn't say what they just said. Especially fun is when they contradict all their previous statements about Iraq.

      --
      Do you even lift?

      These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

    3. Re:Better then another war by interkin3tic · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Keep in mind they vetoed any multilateral UN action to keep the peace in Syria. Russia's involvement is no more humanitarian than the US's involvement.

      Good post on this subject from reddit yesterday. And by "good post" I mean "I have ABSOLUTELY no idea if it's right or not, but it sounds convincing????"

    4. Re:Better then another war by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      While that seems to be the current spin on this, just a few days ago, everyone was reporting that it was Kerry that first mentioned this as an option -- Russia just ran with it once they had the chance.

      Kerry mentioned it as a joke: it was an off-hand answer to the question "What would stop a confrontation with Syria?" It was said in a "Yeah, right, like THAT'D happen!" way.

      Russia ran with it because a) it actually helps the situation b) it makes Kerry and the US look particularly stupid.

      The interesting thing is that the US apparently never considered diplomacy as a course of action. Shoot first, ask questions later?

    5. Re:Better then another war by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      My point was that Russia (and China) kept the UN from intervening sooner and preventing thousands and thousands of deaths, because of fossil fuel interests.

    6. Re:Better then another war by Deflagro · · Score: 1

      Not to mention the oil pipeline that plans to supply Russia with energy via Turkish borders.

      --
      Der Tod ist der einzige Weg hier raus!
    7. Re:Better then another war by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Keep in mind they vetoed any multilateral UN action to keep the peace in Syria.

      They vetoed calling out the United States and Israel for arming and funding jihadist ethnic-cleansing organ-eating rebels, and Saudi Arabia and Qatar for doing the same plus sending in foreign fighters?

      Wow, missed that news.

    8. Re:Better then another war by bloodhawk · · Score: 1

      While I don't condone Russia or china's actions. UN intervention TRIGGERS more violence and death, it is rarely an avenue for preventing death. A UN intervention means firing missiles from the safety of ships and jets while thousands of innocent victims are collateral damage.

    9. Re:Better then another war by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      I don't think fossil fuel interest had anything to do with it. It is a civil war and should be determined by the people of the country not the UN. Quite a few people of Syria support Assad or fear what would replace him too much to support the rebels.

      If the same thing happened in the US or Russia or England or anywhere, would you like the UN stepping in and removing a government from power so the ultra conservatives could take over? replace ultra conservatives with any political bend you want. The point is, it's up to the people to decide, not the UN.

    10. Re:Better then another war by interkin3tic · · Score: 1
      I think you misunderstood me. I'm saying Russia's motivations for keeping the UN from intervening or getting rid of Assad had to do with their natural gas monopoly. The civil war itself, you're right, not fossil fuel related.

      >If the same thing happened in the US or Russia or England or anywhere, would you like the UN stepping in and removing a government from power so the ultra conservatives could take over? replace ultra conservatives with any political bend you want. The point is, it's up to the people to decide, not the UN.

      The UN would have become involved once Assad started killing civilians. So I wouldn't want the UN to replace Obama, unless he started ordering the army to start bombing us, in which case yes, I definitely would want the UN to replace the government.

    11. Re:Better then another war by bhiestand · · Score: 1

      I don't think fossil fuel interest had anything to do with it. It is a civil war and should be determined by the people of the country not the UN.

      Your argument is perfectly valid, but it is worth pointing out that some countries are heavily involved in training, supplying, and supporting one side of the fight.

      Russia is conducting a full court press to prevent Assad from losing, not to prevent outside influence. They aren't trying to prevent Iranian or Chinese involvement, just American.

      --
      SWM seeks new sig for a brief fling
    12. Re:Better then another war by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      I think you misunderstood me. I'm saying Russia's motivations for keeping the UN from intervening or getting rid of Assad had to do with their natural gas monopoly. The civil war itself, you're right, not fossil fuel related.

      Yes, I did misunderstand you.

  6. Taken to school by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's hard to see how this isn't a huge win for Putin. Russia gains even more influence in Syria for stopping a US attack. Obama looks weak and indecisive.

    Of course the biggest winner is Syria, which doesn't get bombed. And odds are, they'll get their chem weapons back once the story dies down.

    1. Re:Taken to school by Kartu · · Score: 2

      US had 2 suggestions:

      1) what Syria agreed to (initially Russians refused saying "it's Syria's right to have them"
      2) To act together and guard these weapons in case of a bigger mess later

      It's not such a big win for Putin, since giving up chemical weapons just not to get your ass beaten by US
      IS a big deal and could later be applied to other countries, e.g. Iran.

    2. Re:Taken to school by SJHillman · · Score: 1

      Look at the headlines. "Russia brokers a deal..." "Syrian Gov't Agrees to Russian Deal". Russian this, Russian that. It doesn't matter if Narnia was actually behind the deal, it only matters who gets all the headlines when it comes to who gets to claim the win.

    3. Re:Taken to school by localman57 · · Score: 1

      Plus, the Russians and the Chinese win because we don't set a precedent of having one country take unilateral action when a country decides it's anything-goes on protesters/rebels. Both the Russians and the Chinese want to keep their ability to pull a Tienamen Square without external interference, as long as they can bork things up in the Security council. Neither of them want to see more Kosovo type stuff.

    4. Re:Taken to school by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Realpolitik doesn't play out in headlines. Headlines are for the idiots who take things at face value.

      This means the Syrian civil war will continue.

      I think we and Russia are on the same side. We both want the Sunnis and Sheia to continue their 1300 year old war.

      We just need to trick Iran into invading Iraq and we're golden.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    5. Re:Taken to school by gtall · · Score: 1

      Wow, influence in Syria, that's just worth its weight in gold isn't it. Supporting an Alawite government despised by 80% of its pop. which are Sunni is going make it big friends in the mid-east. Maybe they are doing it because Iran and their lapdogs Hezbollah are so dear to their hearts.

    6. Re:Taken to school by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      US had 2 suggestions:

      1) what Syria agreed to (initially Russians refused saying "it's Syria's right to have them"

      No, they didn't, that's just 11th Dimensional Chess nonsense to give Obama all the credit no matter what the facts actually are. Obama's only spent the last year and a half making it very very clear that he really really wants to bomb Assad.

    7. Re:Taken to school by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Russia does have a problem with Sunni extremism on its own soil (Chechnya, more recently Tatarstan etc - it's spreading). It does not have any problem with Shiites.

    8. Re:Taken to school by Kartu · · Score: 1

      Russia also brokered deal with Miloshevich, when NATO was bombing the hell out of that country, which was again, technically aggression of NATO block vs independent country, Serbia. (there were again no UN sanctions)

      Hardly a win.

    9. Re:Taken to school by Kartu · · Score: 1

      Could be, could be...
      But I doubt it is a coincidence that whenever there is a conflict with some 30 year old regime, Mr Putin is always on the dictators side.

    10. Re:Taken to school by Kartu · · Score: 1

      Kerry has openly talked (in London) about Assad's giving up chemical weapons would stop the attack.

    11. Re:Taken to school by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      One thing does not preclude the other. Of course, part of Putin's play in supporting Assad is to reinforce the notion of sovereignty and "internal affairs" as absolute, since he would very much like to play his card himself. But the geopolitical aspect is also there - Russia could have a lot to gain from a long-term partnership with Iran, and doubly so if Iran becomes a regional superpower. At the same time, if it would diminish the power (and hence coffers) of KSA and other Sunni states, this would significantly cut into the sources of funding of various Salafi insurgents operating directly on Russian soil, or in regions where it has a strong presence and vested interests (e.g. Central Asian ex-USSR republics).

    12. Re:Taken to school by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      With open sarcasm, after the proposal was already made. Give us your weapons in a week and maybe we wont bomb you.

    13. Re:Taken to school by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      The shites will keep the Sunnis busy.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    14. Re:Taken to school by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      The way it works right now, actually, is that e.g. Chechen Salafi insurgents use Syria (and Libya) as a training ground - they send people there, and a lot of them die, but those that return know what a real full-scale war is like. When a sufficient number of them accumulates, Russia is risking getting the same thing in its own backyard. I don't think anyone in the government wants that.

    15. Re:Taken to school by vandamme · · Score: 1

      Maybe they're playing bad cop-good cop. BHO got his peace prize, and they decided it was Putin's turn. Bottom line, USA gets out of a jam, Assad gets dissed without getting his ass kicked, Putin's still a pal of Syria.

    16. Re:Taken to school by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      What? Their has been an on and off, full on war in Chechnya for 15 years now.

      Chechen Mohammedans have controlled a mountain valley, who's name escapes me, for a decade..

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    17. Re:Taken to school by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      There has not been a "full on war" in Chechnya since 2000. The local insurgents don't control any cities or even villages - they do hang out in the mountains (and in no particular place - they do have bases, but they get found and destroyed every now and then), and mostly do hit & run attacks on police checkpoints, or just blow some shit up in the cities. But there's nothing there like what's happening in Syria, or like what was happening in Chechnya in 1994-96 or 1999-2000.

      OTOH, the scope of their operations hasn't been just Chechnya for a long time now - they have since proclaimed the "Caucasian Emirate" that dispenses with national boundaries and proclaims the unity of all Muslims "under the yoke of Russian kaffirs". They didn't even bother to define the boundaries for that, other than it's wherever Dar al-Islam is. So now all Caucasian republics are affected to some extent, and Dagestan is in fact seeing more trouble than Chechnya.

      Still, this is all rather low-scale. The fear is that it will fan out into another full-scale conflict, if they get the money and the time to organize something like another "Islamic International Peacekeeping Brigade".

  7. "...for very small definitions of 'plan'" by Shoten · · Score: 1

    I wouldn't say that they have agreed to a plan. A plan is something with details and some notion of how, in this case, they are going to effectively assert and trust that all weapons and precursors have been handed over (when most of it all is mobile, so that they can be moved around and hidden more easily). It would have details about how you either secure everything in place...in the middle of a war zone...or how you safely move them (again, through a war zone) to be destroyed elsewhere. It bears pointing out that the destruction of chemical weapon stockpiles at the Rocky Mountain Arsenal was a horrifically difficult and lengthy undertaking, and that was in the midst of a safe, secure and highly industrialized nation. There is no way anyone has come up with an acceptable plan in so short a timeframe as this; I've read that there has been some planning around how to seize and secure (with armed forces) some of the chemical warfare assets should the need and opportunity arise, but that's a very different animal than what is being discussed here, as that is predicated by a general cessation of the civil war currently under way.

    What Syria has agreed to is a concept, not a plan. And even then they may only be banking on the idea that coming up with a true plan to accomplish the stated objectives will be next to impossible, just to buy themselves more time and perhaps even get the notion of military strikes to die out altogether.

    --

    For your security, this post has been encrypted with ROT-13, twice.
  8. How to be sure by booch · · Score: 2

    Have them agree to be bombed if they are found to have any remaining chemical weapons after the turn-over.

    --
    Software sucks. Open Source sucks less.
    1. Re:How to be sure by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      The general assembly is worse then useless.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  9. It's a Stalling Tactic by localman57 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think it's important to remember how Assad played Kofi Annan for a chump for weeks near the beginning of this conflict. The whole time, he kept everybody talking, dangling the bait of a peaceful solution- some compromise - while he was using tanks on protesters that were overwhelmingly peaceful, and at worst lightly armed and totally disorganized.

    He may well be doing the same thing now. He has masterfully played the hand he was dealt with delays, and a gradual escalation of tactics and brutality, essentially boiling the frog of public opinion to avoid any one escalation that yields a response. Dictators for decades will study this. I watched the interview last night with Charlie Rose, and I'm pretty convinced that Putin is probably the only major world leader who'd have a chance against this guy in a poker game.

    1. Re:It's a Stalling Tactic by sribe · · Score: 4, Insightful

      He may well be doing the same thing now.

      The same thing, maybe. But to Vladimir Putin, not Kofi Annan, so I would not expect the same result ;-)

    2. Re:It's a Stalling Tactic by peter.kingsbury · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Stalin had nothing to do with it. This was purely Putin's doing.

    3. Re:It's a Stalling Tactic by fredrated · · Score: 2

      So what is your conclusion: that he should be the next President of the United States?

    4. Re:It's a Stalling Tactic by localman57 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      My conclusion is that if he's a better poker player than us, then we shouldn't play poker with him. We either don't play any game, or choose one that plays to our strengths.

      Just because you acknowledge someone's capacities, it doesn't mean that you admire them. To the contrary, my whole point is that we have to understand how he's gotten this far, if we want to have any shot at a positive result.

    5. Re:It's a Stalling Tactic by phantomfive · · Score: 2

      The difference is, Putin and Assad are on the same team. Putin is happy to help Assad stall and delay.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  10. Re:Fr0sty Bin laden p1ss by oztiks · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Oh John Kerry you really botched that one didn't you LOL!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUJTarxfZ6M

  11. LOL by IamTheRealMike · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I want to high five the reporter that asked that question. Holy shit. A single question be a single reporter possibly changing the course of an entire war. Not every day you see that.

  12. no brainer by spirit_fingers · · Score: 4, Insightful

    When considering a response to the use of poison gas in Syria, the U.S. has several choices available to it.

    1. Do nothing. This is the least desirable option for most Americans, whether or not they believe we should bomb. A majority prefer some kind of response.

    2. Assuming that gas was used on Assad's orders, punish him by dropping bombs on something important to him, but being careful not to hurt him so badly that his regime fails and Al Qaeda-backed forces assume power.

    3. Resolve the situation diplomatically. Use third parties to pressure Assad to turn over his chemical weapons arsenal to international control.

    A strong case can be made that options 1 and 2 are the least likely to achieve a desirable outcome. That leaves option 3, which as of last Monday has a real chance of happening. The most reasonable course of action appears to be laid out before us. The time is now for Obama to think out of the box, have the courage to reconsider his strategy and show the world that he really did deserve his Nobel Peace Prize.

    1. Re:no brainer by Gryle · · Score: 1

      Citation?

      --
      Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not entirely sure about the universe - Einstein
    2. Re:no brainer by msobkow · · Score: 1

      If he's planning to blame that blowhard, Kerry, then maybe...

      --
      I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
    3. Re:no brainer by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Have you considered that this is Obama's strategy?

      Have you considered that 11th Dimensional chess has never been anything more than wishful Obamabot thinking?

    4. Re:no brainer by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      How are you going to implement "capture Assad anyway"?

      Also, I have to note that your notion of justice seems to exclude some crucial elements, such as due process. Do you know beyond a reasonable doubt that government forces were responsible for the attack? If yes, then do you also know beyond a reasonable doubt that Assad is responsible for it - i.e. either ordered it, or allowed it to proceed in full knowledge that it would happen?

    5. Re:no brainer by tsotha · · Score: 1

      The third option is really a mirage. Even if Assad was willing to do everything above-board it would take six months to hammer out the details, and by then the facts on the ground will be radically different.

    6. Re:no brainer by ai4px · · Score: 1

      Ok, go with 3... Assad turns over *his* chemical weapons. How do you get the rebels to turn over the ones the stole last year?

  13. Re:Oh no! the US must find another reason to attac by SJHillman · · Score: 1

    That's easy. Putin will be having sex with fully armed and operational chemical weapons. It's sort of what he does. No PR machine needed.

  14. Re:So now what's the new conspiracy theory? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    A couple weeks ago, all the anti-U.S. people on Slashdot said that Syria had no chemical weapons

    They said no such thing. The fact that Syria has chemical weapons was never in doubt.

  15. Re:So now what's the new conspiracy theory? by GargamelSpaceman · · Score: 1

    Why is not wanting to go to war in Syria considered anti-US? More than half the house of representatives seem to not want to go to war in Syria.

    Nobody knows what happened, for sure, or who used the weapons, Assad, or the Rebels, but I actually don't care. It shouldn't involve the US's military.

    And because I don't think anyone who wasn't there knows who did what, and even if someone did, because I have no way of vetting their investigations/spin, I have to go with what was my first guess based on who stands to gain. I think likely some Syrian govt. CW depot was captured by the Rebels, or someone in the Syrian military with access to CW, defected to the Rebels, or a Rebel sympathizer in the Syrian military who had not defected officially fired the CW in order to get the US and pals to intervene on the Rebel's behalf.

    It only makes sense that the Rebels bombed themselves.

    The US shouldn't be anyone's tool.

    Also - Syria under Assad is in the US's interest. Having Assad there as a threat gives the US leverage over Saudi Arabia and others in the area who open the oil spigots whenever the US calls because the US is important in protecting themselves from the Assad/Iraq/Iran axis. Assad/Iraq/Iran, aren't the buddies of the US, which means the US isn't liable in a P.R. way for any damage they do, but they could only do real damage with US complicity. This makes them the US's mafia muscle in the area. If the US got rid of Assad, it would be like icing it's own hitman.

    Who will pay for protection without the muscle?

    And Europe wants a pipeline from SA through Syria so it isn't as dependent on Russian oil. And SA wants the added customers in Europe which BTW would help it thumb it's nose at the US.

    How is getting rid of Assad good for the US again?

    --
    ...
  16. Re:So now what's the new conspiracy theory? by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

    A couple weeks ago, all the anti-U.S. people on Slashdot said that Syria had no chemical weapons

    [citation needed]

    From what I've seen, nobody's saying they don't have chemical weapons - the point of contention is whether or not it was the Syrian government who used chemical weapons in the attacks, because A) there's evidence that indicates it was actually some rebel group (probably Al Queda) who did it, and B) the US government is not a credible source in this regard, especially when they want to start the fight before evidence is process, all the while claiming that their rationale for war is classified Super Cereal Secret Squirrel.

    --
    An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
  17. Re:lol by Antipater · · Score: 1

    Syria has never denied having chemical weapons. They have repeatedly and quite openly stated that they have them. What they denied was USING them on their own people.

    --
    Everything is better with chainsaws.
  18. Mm, chemical weapon turnovers by neminem · · Score: 1

    Sounds like the Whizzo Chocolate Company is expanding into pastries?

  19. Re:lol by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

    Did I fall asleep for a week? When did the Syrian government claim they had no chemical weapons?

    I think, perhaps, you're confusing the terms "have" and "used."

    --
    An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
  20. Re:So now what's the new conspiracy theory? by DeathToBill · · Score: 2

    I don't think anyone outside fruitcake-land (though God knows there are enough of them) seriously thought that Syria didn't have chemical weapons. What has been the subject of ferocious debate is whether Syria has used chemical weapons.

    So far the evidence is unclear, IMO. There have been six alleged incidents. Five of them were relatively small and not very well documented and it would be very hard to say from the direct evidence presented who carried out the attacks, if they happened at all.

    The sixth attack, in Ghouta, on 21 August, is rather a different matter. Video footage which can be fairly reliably linked to the attack shows a large scale rocket attack, hundreds of dead and injured people and the attack definitely happened in the course of a Syrian Army attack. So either someone sneaked into the Syrian Army lines with a rocket launcher (more likely a number of them) and fired a series of rockets into the same area the army was already bombarding, or the rockets were launched by the Syrian Army.

    The first theory is not entirely incredible. The fighting seems to have been in urban areas with lots of civilians around, so it would perhaps be possible, with a bit of luck and a lot of planning, to get the necessary equipment to the right place for a rebel group to launch this sort of attack. The usual objection to this sort of 'false flag' attack is that it involves a group attacking their own people, but this is not necessarily the case in Syria - the rebels are very disparate and some groups probably hate each other as much as they hate the government. The motive could even be simple revenge on another rebel group, though if that were the case then it seems unlikely that they would try to make the army look responsible.

    All in all, it seems pretty likely that the attack at Ghouta, at least, was real and was carried out by the Syrian Army. But how anyone can "know" the truth of that in this situation is beyond me.

    --
    Slashdot - News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters, in ISO-8859-1 Has just realised that beta makes this signature redundant
  21. This'll be interesting: by Hartree · · Score: 2

    Securing chemical weapons sites in a civil war zone where people shoot at UN inspectors.

    Now, there's some interesting logistics.

    Add to that the possibility that some has already been stolen and at least one of the sites is under regular rebel attack.

    So, we have a "red line" comment that had unintended consequences. That's now followed by an offhand comment by the Secretary of State that had unintended consequences, and the two just might cancel the worst of each other's damage out.

    Ike Eisenhower once said: "I'll take a lucky general over a smart general."

    I think it goes double for national leaders and diplomats.

    1. Re:This'll be interesting: by Hartree · · Score: 1

      There are many things that I suspect, but don't have enough evidence of to directly say.

      The speed of Lavrov picking up on what Kerry said was very convenient. I suspect this was a proposal that the Russians had mentioned before (and was rejected) that was put back in play. If the Russians pursue it, it gets Obama out of a position where either attacking or backing down in the face of a failed vote in congress were unpalatable. If not, no one notices.

  22. Re:LOL by Antipater · · Score: 3, Informative
    The NBC article on this includes this line, though:

    In a further development, a spokesman for Vladimir Putin said the Russian president had discussed the weapons handover plan with Obama at last week’s G-20 summit.

    So according to Russia, at least, this didn't come out of nowhere. It's been planned for a little bit. The reporter may have even been a planted question, a trial balloon for the official announcement.

    --
    Everything is better with chainsaws.
  23. Re:So now what's the new conspiracy theory? by dbIII · · Score: 1

    Why do you think these people are the "anti-US" crowd?
    It's in the best interests of the US to stay out since it's a loss both ways - a vile regime which the US and Israel dislike but the US has some history with and rebels that are most certainly no friends of the US and have connections with terrorist groups that have killed US Marines and others. Which dog to pick in the fight? That mad, bad and dangerous regime that was so handy with "extreme rendition" when US agencies wanted to pretend someone else was doing the torture, or a bunch that include people that chant "Death to America"?

  24. Re:Fr0sty Bin laden p1ss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    What are you on about? Obama is an international hero for getting Putan to agree to the plan by having Kerry pretend he was going rogue. Obama's a super genius!

  25. Re:Missing Option by darkstar949 · · Score: 1

    Sure, except for the fact that nobody has been able to explain how the rebels managed to get their hands on chemical weapons in order to launch the attack. Short of manufacturing them they would have had to have gotten them from a Syrian storehouse that fell into their hands in which case it makes sense for the Syrian government to want to wash their hands free of them.

  26. Cold War II by Nidi62 · · Score: 1

    Of course Syria agreed to the Russian proposal. Russia and Syria are huge allies, and Russia has had bases (not sure if they still do) there in the past. In all likelihood, Putin spoke to Assad and negotiated all of this out before he announced his plan, to make sure Assad would agree to it. Think about it: this agreement hurts the image of the US by making them look militaristic and warlike, makes Russia look good, and ensures that Assad stays in power (and makes him look reasonable). Assad doesn't care if he loses his chemical stockpile: he can kill the rebels just fine using guns, and if he keeps the issue murky enough it can never proved whether or not he actually used the chemical weapons. He loses the strategic protection afforded by possessing a stockpile of chemical weapons, but he has Russia as a strategic partner to back him up if things ever get bad. It is a win-win for both Russia and Syria, and a net loss for the US (though probably not as bad had the US taken unilateral action in Syria).

    The Cold War really is ratcheting back up. Assad's just the tool, his ultimate goal is to stay in power: as long as that happens, he wins. Russia's goal is to make the US look bad as much as possible (this, Snowden, etc), which bolsters their image both domestically as well as internationally (this would lead to increased arms exports, economic opportunities, and of course political influence). This is all a game: the US uses Syria to divert attention away from domestic issues like the NSA spying while Russia uses the increased attention to basically play the US and make out like the good guy.

    --
    The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
  27. It looks and smells like 1939 Gleiwitz provocation by boorack · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I don't think Assad actually did such suicidal step. He might be quite brutal dictator but he and his regime certainly have self preservation instinct. Otherwise he would be overthrown long time ago. My suspicion is that this horrible act was actually done by rebels^H^H^H^H^Hal-Quaeda as act of desperation. Assad regime that has strong motive to avoid such thing at all costs. It was clearly winning this war since taking over Qusair in June this year. Assad army was basically mopping up remaining rebel groups. Carla de Ponte, UN chief inspector digging through Syria CW issues said all things indicate rebels are behind August attack in Damascus, pretty much the same as in Aleppo case, April this year. But (surprise! surprise!) - since she said that, approx. two weeks ago, all mentions of UN Syria inspection magically disappeared from US mainstream media ! And even now, when Russians basically did 'check mate' to US administration, virtually everyone in the sane world is against intervention (except for Israel, Saudi Arabia and some EU politicians paying lip service to their US masters^H^H^H^H^Hcounterparts but passively resisting), Kerry and friends are still in warmongering binge, indicating his 'ultimatum' Syria accepted was "rhetorical". Overthrowing table after getting check-mate doesn't look good.

    My take is this: United States is desperately trying to do a regime change in Syria, regardless of human costs. They basically don't give a crap about civilian casualties and if you don't believe, ask some Libyans how are they since being "liberated" (there are still full fledged atrocities and cleansings in Libya with thousands upon thousands civilian casualties, yet your lovely corporate media "forgot" reporting about this - which is expected, by the way). CW issue was a convenient pretext, yet as it just has fallen apart, your Noble Prize War Monger In Chief will invent another pretext soon. Expect more drastic provocations. Like, for example, rebels attacking targets in Israel, shooting sarin shells from Syria territory and Israel immediately bombing the hell out of Damascus before rest of the world gets aware what's going on (so no diplomacy will be possible to derail invasion plan).

  28. Wall Street by mr.mctibbs · · Score: 1

    Are you wondering why on Earth Obama would think it's a good idea to bomb Syria, when Libya was such a disaster? I'll give you a hint: both countries are non-members of the WTO, with state-owned banking systems. So is Iran.

    http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/making_the_world_safe_for_banksters_syria_in_the_cross-hairs_20130905/

    The people who financed Obama's elections -- and who are the only folks for whom he's been a good president -- are the ones who have the most to gain by regime change in Syria.

  29. Re:It looks and smells like 1939 Gleiwitz provocat by MightyYar · · Score: 1

    My suspicion is that this horrible act was actually done by rebels

    I agree that - given the tiny bit of information we are working with - that is also a reasonable possibility.

    --
    W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
  30. Good Alibi by bmearns · · Score: 1

    I'm concerned primarily with the last point:

    ...how the world could be sure Syria had handed over its entire stockpile

    If Assad makes a big show of turning over his stockpile, but manages to hang onto some anyway, he'll have a good alibi if another attack occurs.

    --
    Slashdot is not a game, Slashdot is not a game. Crap, I just lost points.
    1. Re:Good Alibi by gox · · Score: 1

      We are not talking about nuclear weapons here. Manufacturing chemical weapons from scratch isn't hard. This move is more or less symbolic.

      In all likelihood, the allies saw that this would turn into a huge disaster and decided to step back. Asking Syria to hand over the weapons and making them comply will make them look successful and mature, Russia's involvement as the "facilitator" puts it in a very advantageous position, while Assad establishes the right to continue doing what he was doing. All players are happy, rest is clueless.

    2. Re:Good Alibi by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      It depends on how exactly this is implemented. If it's a one-off thing, then you're right, it's largely pointless other than symbolism. But if the UN (and specifically UNSC nations) gets a permanent mandate to conduct inspections and monitor compliance now and in the future, that's a very different thing. Though that would go beyond the scope of CWC, it would be nice to have this as a precedent that we can then hopefully expand to other countries, as well.

  31. meh by sociocapitalist · · Score: 1

    Russia most likely sold them the chemical weapons in the first place.

    Probably offered them a discount on the next batch of biological weapons or something if they go along with this time wasting (deliberately) measure.

    Win / win for Russia and a Win for Assad in that he gets the ROW off his ass for awhile and can keep beating on his civilians.

    --
    blindly antisocialist = antisocial
    1. Re:meh by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      The kind of chemical weapons used so far are pretty easy to manufacture locally.

      As for civilians, you do realize that for many of them the choice is basically whether they want to be gassed or have their head sawed off slowly with a knife? Did you see the YouTube clips that rebels themselves shoot of their executions? The cannibal FSA commander?

    2. Re:meh by sociocapitalist · · Score: 1

      The kind of chemical weapons used so far are pretty easy to manufacture locally.

      As for civilians, you do realize that for many of them the choice is basically whether they want to be gassed or have their head sawed off slowly with a knife? Did you see the YouTube clips that rebels themselves shoot of their executions? The cannibal FSA commander?

      Okay but Russia sells them most of the rest of their weaponry -

      Agreed for the civilians. It's a lose / lose for them at the moment.

      --
      blindly antisocialist = antisocial
  32. Great point. but there is more. by bussdriver · · Score: 1

    See the PNAC document, written before Bush Jr got into office. It outlines some of the reasons and all their plans to conquer the middle east. We've been following that plan since 2000 when Bush got into office. I practically memorized it.

    Whomever is in charge - it's not us... because both parties are following the plans. Afghanistan was #1 on the list (yes, years before 9/11,) Iraq #2 and Syria was #3. We even started to build to invade fairly early into Iraq but some deals were made... So now for some reason we've decided the deal is off and we'll go back to our original plans. Iran is #4. You'd think we'd be pushing harder on Iran... but you just watch after Syria meets our demands (which is not WMD) the Iran situation will get much worse.

    What surprises me is that these plans are so old and despite the world changing we are basically following the same plans (true, the motives haven't changed.) North Korea is #5 on the list; it was pre-nuclear so I wonder after we level Iran if they'll keep with the plan and just how they'll pull it off.

  33. WWIII Kickstarter! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful
  34. Re:So now what's the new conspiracy theory? by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

    Duh. It's a great situation for America. We maintain the stalemate. Discreetly supplying whichever side is losing at the moment with enough weapons to restore balance. See also Iran/Iraq war of the 1980s.

    --
    John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  35. Good cop, bad cop? by whitroth · · Score: 1

    I'm wondering if the reported strong disagreement between Obama and Putin at the G20 was after private talks where they decided to play bad cop/good cop....

                    mark

  36. Re:LOL by BlackSupra · · Score: 5, Informative

    http://www.mediaite.com/tv/is-cbs-reporter-margaret-brennan-responsible-for-current-proposal-on-syria/

    Is CBS Reporter Margaret Brennan Responsible for Current Proposal on Syria?
    by Andrew Kirell | 12:09 pm, September 10th, 2013 VIDEO
      It was one of those moments for which every journalist strives. A simple question posed to a public figure led to a major shift in policy.

    When CBS correspondent Margaret Brennan asked Secretary of State John Kerry if there is anything Bashar al-Assad‘s Syrian regime could do or offer that would stop a U.S. military strike, she likely did not expect for Kerry to respond with the “hypothetical” heard ’round the world.

    “He could turn over every single bit of his chemical weapons to the international community in the next week,” Kerry responded, seemingly in jest. “Turn it over, all of it, without delay, and allow a full and total accounting for that. But he isn’t about to do it, and it can’t be done, obviously.”

    Obviously it can’t be done and is not worth considering, right? After all, the State Department clarified that his statement was a “hypothetical.” Except, later that day, Kerry’s off-the-cuff remark became the foundation for a major Russian proposal: Assad hands over his chemical weapons stockpile to the international community and the U.S. military strikes.

    Hours later, President Obama conceded to NBC News that this new Russian proposal-via-offhand-Kerry-remark could represent “a significant breakthrough,” signaling a shift in U.S. policy from trying to obtain congressional approval for military strikes to a U.N. Security Council resolution involving the overturning of chemical weapons.

    While major questions remain as to whether Syria could realistically hand over chemical weapons stockpiles while in the midst of a bloody civil war; or whether this proposal represents a stalling by all sides until the next Assad “red line”-crossing; this much is clear: A single question from a tough-minded journalist provoked a bumbling remark from a major policy official — a remark that has, for the time being, significantly altered the course of this ongoing tension and effectively delayed the use of American military assets against the Syrian regime.

    Take note, aspiring journalists.

    Watch Brennan’s history-making exchange with Kerry below, as captured raw by CNBC:

  37. hmm... by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

    So Obama and John Kerry basically make off the cuff remarks that get us into this entire situation. So we're to believe their unwitting idiots? This seems a lot like GW Bush's tactic of looking like a bumpkin to distract people from whatever unpopular thing he was doing. Is there anything going on right now that they'd want to distract us from? Like... the NSA? The Budget? The Economy? Come on, does anyone really think they give 2 shits about Syria? Or a better question, why do they care more about Syria than the Congo... where a hell of a lot more people are being killed.

  38. Re:It looks and smells like 1939 Gleiwitz provocat by phantomfive · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That doesn't make sense either, if Obama wanted to attack Syria, he more excuse to do so than he did in Libya, because the war has bled over into our ally country of NATO (Turkey). There is no real good way to explain the actions of the Obama administration. Overall the actions of the administration seem misdirected and incompetent.

    Which is the worst part of the entire situation. Even if you favor getting rid of Assad, do you really want an incompetent administration to go around flinging a giant weapon? It's like the Iraq war, I fully opposed the Iraq war, but even then, I'm willing to admit that if Bush 1 or Clinton had been engaging that war, it would have gone off a lot better.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  39. Re:Missing Option by aevan · · Score: 1

    Isreal could stand to gain...but depending which rebel faction would rise to the top afterwords, it could be a loss. A nice western-puppet though...

  40. Re:Russian gays have rights by Khashishi · · Score: 2

    Interesting definition of full rights.

  41. Re:Fr0sty Bin laden p1ss by JoshRosenbaum · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I saw an article today that suggests that this may have actually came up at the G20:

    http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/09/10/20416189-obama-agrees-to-un-discussion-of-russia-proposal-on-syria-chemical-weapons?lite

    In a further development, a spokesman for Putin said the Russian president had discussed the weapons handover plan with Obama at last week’s G-20 summit.

  42. Regime is not stupid either by mrops · · Score: 2

    What I don't get is that when rebels had momentum, they did not use chemical weapons. Now that the rebels are losing ground and the Asad military machine is winning and gaining grounds, they go ahead and use chemical agents.

    Personally, it doesn't add up. IMO, the most to gain with this show was actually the rebels. Nonetheless, politics played by Putin and Asad turned this into an advantage, once they hand over the weapons, the regime can crush the rebellion in the most brutal way followed by negotiating a peace on their terms (we can hope can't we).

    Personally, I would support the devil I know, i.e. the Asad regime. The other devil have significant extremist elements, aka al-qaeda.

    1. Re:Regime is not stupid either by TheCarp · · Score: 1

      Dude the weapons were used against rebel held areas.

      The allegation is not just that the rebels (not that they are a single group, there are a few) used chemical weapons, but that they used them on civilians in areas that they held to make it look like the regime did it.

      If they want eventual US or other western nation backing (or at least good relations) then not using the chemical weapons while winning is very smart and makes perfect sense. (We also wouldn't know when they were aquired)

      However, while losing, and in need of international aid, a false flag attack like this does, after a fashion, make perfect sense. This doesn't mean it was, I am skeptical too, but, its not an impossible scenario.

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    2. Re:Regime is not stupid either by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 2

      Have you considered that it may be one group of rebels - in particular, the one that does not want good relations with the West or its long-term backing, like, say, al-Nusra - using it against an area controlled by a different group (seems to be FSA from the reports that I've seen) with which they are known to have tensions that have already escalated into some minor clashes elsewhere?

    3. Re:Regime is not stupid either by TheCarp · · Score: 1

      That too is a possibility. I guess the next question is, which rebels were holding those people; if any at all, and what groups are they aligned with?

      Rebel on rebel, and leaving the regime holding the bag would be a pretty interesting move. Multiparty conflicts can make your head spin. Then you have to wonder, did they directly get chemical weapons and stockpile them, or do they have agents within the Syrian army with access to them?

      There really are more questions than answers.

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
  43. Re:Why the U.S. wants to bomb syria by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

    You were alive in '45? Idiot.

    --
    John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  44. Re:So now what's the new conspiracy theory? by bossk538 · · Score: 1

    Why does everyone assume that the rebels are hostile to the US? I mean the FSA, and obviously not al Qaeda or MB franchises like al Nusra.

  45. I hope Obama and Biden win!!! by Vinegar+Joe · · Score: 1
    --
    "The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
  46. "Non-military" doesn't necessarily mean "Peaceful" by Guppy · · Score: 1

    Peacefully/diplomatically

    There is a gap the size of the Formosan Straight between "non-military" and "peaceful", and everyone involved knows that the Superweapon that will be deployed in the upcoming conflict is Money.

    As far as I can tell, the KMT's main plan is to play for time and hope the PRC becomes more democratic as it develops, while developing tourism and cultural exchange with the general public of the Mainland. This reduces the risk of an open conflict and has allowed for a diplomatic "cease-fire" (where the PRC has slowed -- but not stopped -- its efforts to diplomatically isolate Taiwan and exclude it from international organizations). On the downside, the strategy also puts Taiwan in ever-increasing danger of being economically absorbed, and the PRC knows and takes advantage of this.

    The DPP's strategy seems to favor edging towards an independent identity, going just far enough each time to trigger the PRC into counter-productive retaliations that alarm the international community, and reduce already-low opinion of the PRC government both domestically and abroad. Seeing as how the PRC usually takes the bait, it's a dangerous game with a lot of potential economic consequences. It also causes big political headaches for the US, which in principle supports Taiwan, but probably would like to pay as little of an economic and military cost as possible in doing so.

  47. Politeness is important, even when killing by Guppy · · Score: 1

    The idea behind the chemical weapon aversion AFAIK is that unlike bullets-- which are great on a battlefield-- chemical weapons have a tendency to be at least as damaging to the civilian populations as they are to the military, and often moreso.

    More like the problem that it turns warfare into an exercise in Pest Control. Quite literally -- nerve gas is just pesticide tuned for the human nervous system.

    The idealized version of warfare is one which you have a conflict that ends with 1 Army functional, 1 Army broken, and 2 Civilian populations relatively intact. In practice it doesn't happen quite that way, but our International Conventions are intended to try to keep it as close as possible to this ideal.

    With Chemical Warfare taken to its extreme, the outcome is a war in which you end up with 2 opposing Armies remaining, but each with zero Civilian populations left to defend.

    1. Re:Politeness is important, even when killing by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      The idealized version of warfare is the one that doesn't happen. This whole idea of "fighting right" goes back to the romanticized European notions of a fair fight where two sides, one of which has some real grievance with another, duel honorably following a rigid set of rules. The problem is that this very approach presupposes that such fights are a valid way to resolve disputes; and we have since decided (quite rightly so) that, no, they are not. So the only kinds of wars that we have at this point where either or both sides fight to win / achieve their goals, not for the sake of honor or some such.

  48. Can't have your Cake and Eat it too by Guppy · · Score: 1

    That's the choice really. We recently had a leader who was all about pouring out a Bajillion Dollars on desert sand, to look Strong and Decisive.

    Now all we have to do is put up with one willing to look "weak and indecisive" to save us a Bajillion Dollars on another patch of desert sand. I don't have a problem with that.

  49. Re:LOL by igny · · Score: 1

    Russians might be saying this just to play nice and let Obama with Kerry keep their face.

    --
    In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is. - Yogi Berra
  50. Re:It looks and smells like 1939 Gleiwitz provocat by msobkow · · Score: 1

    Why? Many reasons.

    To reduce support for Hezbollah.

    To drive up oil prices now that they're producing more and even thinking of exporting oil.

    To take out one of the few nations that isn't part of the international banking cartel.

    To "improve security" for Israel.

    To take away one of Russia's last "partners" on the international stage. I might be remembering wrong, but I think Russia was using Syria for air bases in a similar fashion to US-Turkey.

    Need I go on?

    --
    I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
  51. Why blunder ? by giorgist · · Score: 1

    Why is such a great question " what action by Assad could possibly prevent an attack?" be considered a blunder ?

    It is a standard and classic question to test if somebody is honest in the reasoning.

    "What will it take to change your mind ?"

    If somebody answers "nothing" you know they don't believe in their words

  52. It's a Selective Storyline by Uberbah · · Score: 1

    The whole time, he kept everybody talking, dangling the bait of a peaceful solution- some compromise - while he was using tanks on protesters that were overwhelmingly peaceful, and at worst lightly armed and totally disorganized.

    And while Saudi Arabia and the United States have been supplying money and weapons to the "opposition", of which Al Queda makes up a powerful faction, including guys who cut the hearts out of enemy soldiers and munch on them.

    I watched the interview last night with Charlie Rose

    Then you saw him make perfectly reasonable points, like why would he use chemical weapons right next to his own troops the day weapons inspectors arrive, or why the American's aren't thundering over Israel's WMD arsenal while they're at it. You know, since they're the one regional power that has indisputably used chemical weapons, when they dumped phosphorus on Gaza.

  53. Re:Missing Option by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

    Many options here.

    1. Manufacture them (sarin is not hard to make). It's actually the delivery system that's the trickier part of this.

    2. Get them from Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar or any other state that has discreetly supplied rebels with weapons so far.

    1+2. Manufacture sarin locally and get the delivery system from one of the listed countries.

    3. From an overrun Syrian army storehouse, as you have rightly pointed out.

    4. Smuggled from Iraq or Libya.

  54. Re:Missing Option by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

    I would assume that any deal that'll be brokered would include the rebels - i.e. they would have to permit inspectors and enforcers on their territory, as well. We'll see if they sign up for that or not.

  55. Re:So now what's the new conspiracy theory? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

    I don't think anyone outside fruitcake-land (though God knows there are enough of them) seriously thought that Syria didn't have chemical weapons.

    I don't think you need to account for any exceptions, actually. I mean, Syria did not sign the Chemical Weapons Convention for a reason, and that was not exactly a secret.

  56. chemical weapons stockpile by manu0601 · · Score: 1

    That would not help Russia getting rid of their chemical weapon stockpile, something they agreed to do in a convention from 1992 on the possession of chemical weapons (The 1925 convention bans the use but not the creation and possession). But this is not a big problem, since US is also late on this agenda, with a lot of remaining chemical weapons that should already have been discarded.

  57. Re:So now what's the new conspiracy theory? by dbIII · · Score: 1

    Because some of them are associated with the attempted attack on the US embassy in Syria a few years ago.

  58. Like the U.S. abides by terrywirth5 · · Score: 1

    Hypocrisy defined. What about the U.S. chemical weapons policy? http://www.monbiot.com/2013/09/09/obamas-rogue-state/

  59. Re:LOL by lzm_ · · Score: 1

    Definitely.

    I also believe the reporter asking that question was planted. I believe that the US wanted a way to save face, perhaps because they understood that Russia and other nations is not going to "let this one slip".

    You can even see the way Kerry responds, and how he adds "but that's not going to happen, obviously" and body language etc.

    USA wanted to save face so they are not shown as weak. Afterwards they also went out to say that it was a mistake etc. It's obvious.