Slashdot Mirror
London Tube Cleaners Don't Want Fingerprint Clock-in
Bismillah writes "Biometrics is hot stuff, not just for Apple but cleaning companies like the UK division of Denmark's IIS which tidies the London Underground railway network. However, the cleaners aren't happy about having to clock in and out with biometric fingerprint sensors, and are taking industrial action to stop the practice."
When I worked in a NOC for a major bank, we had full hand scanners, explosives sniffers and video records to endure when we clocked in. That was fifteen years ago. Just be happy you have a job.
I wouldn't want to touch anything down there barehanded either.
"A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head."
Not the kind of place I'd want to stick my finger either.
The only "civil liberty" it attacks is the ability to fraudulently sign in for someone else. This is how unions get a bad name. Bio-metrics are used for time card validation on many places and it is neither "draconian" nor "an attack on civil liberties".
The article then goes on to talk about biometric authentication on mobile devices which has nothing to do with biometric time card sign ins. This is another sensationalistic piece which brings together unrelated information in an attempt to make a big splash.
These people do actual work with their hands, they are not chair faggots sitting in an office sipping Nespressos. Their fingerprints must be full of cracks and chemical burns anyways, how can you be sure it'll work?
The only "civil liberty" it attacks is the ability to fraudulently sign in for someone else.
Says another of Big Brother's useful idiots.
Don't be wimps. Get the model number of the equipment, research how it works, and circumvent. The hard part is keeping the circumvention from management, unless they are participants. I enjoy modern tech. Old school tech like video cameras are tricky. It always raises suspicion when employees are clocking in wearing gorilla masks. One position I had used special encrypted key chain tokens to open the doors, which also clocked you in. Nice, but after a few weeks of trials I found the encryption was not so tough. I could copy other IDs as they walked by in the pub. It was as difficult as those smart cards they use instead of quarters at the laundry. I had $2,000 on my laundry card to make sure it didn't run out.
Don't be wimps. Get the model number of the equipment, research how it works, and circumvent. The hard part is keeping the circumvention from management, unless they are participants. I enjoy modern tech. Old school tech like video cameras are tricky. It always raises suspicion when employees are clocking in wearing gorilla masks. One position I had used special encrypted key chain tokens to open the doors, which also clocked you in. Nice, but after a few weeks of trials I found the encryption was not so tough. I could copy other IDs as they walked by in the pub. It was as difficult as those smart cards they use instead of quarters at the laundry. I had $2,000 on my laundry card to make sure it didn't run out.
Just because it's easy to steal doesn't mean it's okay.
The tube cleaners are refusing to go down in the tub station at midnight (because it's so dangerous).
I'm currently undecided if this is a good thing or not. On one hand, I'm against technology for the sake of technology. Using computers and touch screens because they are new and fancy is stupid when a pen and paper will do. It's one thing to have biometrics in clean areas like banks and office buildings, it's another to have then in maintenance areas. How long before they start to fail and workers are not getting paid because they can't clock in due to dirt and grease build up.
On the other hand, They have really failed to outline how their civil liberties are being attacked. To what extent can someones thumbprint be abused and how will this affect workers and their rights. None of that was even attempted to be explained.
To anyone saying that the workers just want to fraudulently sign in for someone else and abuse the system needs to try again and come up with a real argument. The assumption that workers just want to screw over employers is elitist and is a part of the same poor logic of "If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about." It completely side steps the real issues and disguises the technology as only hurting the bad people. While I don't deny that fraud probably happens, there is no way that fraud is the sole reason for rejection of biometrics. Give real reasons for it, not made up reasons for why the are against it.
AKA "Going on strike"..........
"The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
Uhm, no. This is the Peter Principle:
I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
This is exactly where technology like this will be deployed. They will say you know what it is just a slight inconvenience to the menial tube workers. Then eventually the government and other employers will hand out some no bid contract to some corporation to install these in all places as self identification methods. This technology must be fervently resisted before it is too late. If you don't believe me, just look at the how the TSA is expanding operations from airports to rail stations, highways, and bus depots.
This will cost money and will eventually fail. That is control and humiliation for the sake of it.
Should have this happen in North Korea, you would have considered it differently.
In our local transport system here in france, some stupid bureaucrates have decided we must "validate" our card altrough our money has been taken out of our banking account the month before ! It required a costly system, no doubt, paid twice its real value. But you have no garantee there will have a train.
Money for control, no money for service.
What does it mean, "appended to the end of comments you post"
I wouldn't want to touch the same biometric surface because I don't know where that finger has been.
On an iPhone, probably only a few people would touch the sensor, but a reader used by a wide population, no thanks, not unless I can wash my hands afterwards.
Their data is obviously 100% secure so I don't really see any problems. Cleaning companies are famous for their rigid IT infrastructure, since their operational margin is huge and they have tons of cash to spend. There is also no market for hundreds (thousands?) of fingerprints with matching names and other personal data on a black market. So what could possibly go wrong?
"Biometrics is hot stuff"
Really? When I worked at a major supermarket chain, they were using fingerprint scanners for clocking on/off. That was 2004 and I doubt they were early adopters.
This technology is not new.
Where is moderation: -1 False?
When I worked at part-time job at the local Woolworths deli as a young, pimply faced 15 year old we clocked in and out with our fingerprints... in 1995. The future is, well... 18 years ago I guess.
Care to cite any studies or article where this has happened? Otherwise it is pure conjecture on your part.
Cant one make a wax mould, pour in silicone, then just pass it round like a clock in card anyway?
Just be happy you have a phone.
This is exactly what Apple want you to think.
FTFY
Why the protests??. Aah, right, so you want to be able to get your buddy check in for you just incase your a bit late.. mmhm.
Now if they had a 3D printer, some gel and a latent finger print. They could make a finger with some hollywood technigues of making prosthetics. http://www.tgdaily.com/mobility-brief/79776-iphone-5s-haters-heres-how-you-steal-a-fingerprint having fun beating the system.
But this isn't a solution. Even if it works for a bit it will be gamed almost immediately to the point of being useless. Oh, except to the people who are paid millions to install and support the new system.
Every secured environment I've worked in they've given me a badge to the door. If they cared to further scrutinize, sometimes there was biometrics but often times that was optional. In every case I could get by with no badge and no biometrics by showing my ID to the guard.
The guard, or in this case, the employee supervisor, is what is missing here.
The problem they're apparently trying to fix with technology is that they're so disconnected from their employees that nobody in management ever even sees these people, or if they do they look on them as a nameless, faceless trash worker.
That's purely a social and structural issue of their company.
Standing by stuff like "slipper slope" and "You last statement" isn't much of an accomplishment.
ISS.
But ... with a fingerprint sensor at a work entry point there is one less union worker checking people in.
And unions want to be just like government work, where no job is ever eliminated.
There's a bunch of problems with "clocking in as someone else"
1) If there's a disaster and they need to know "who are we searching for", time card records are a good source
2) There are wage and hour laws designed to prevent employer abuse of employees (e.g. overtime rules). Allowing one person to clock in as another opens the door to abuse: (you take my shift or I'll report that you were doing drugs in the restroom on break) (I don't care if you've got to get home, and I'm not paying overtime, clock in as Joe Blow for second shift)
3) Insurance rates and payments (worker's comp, unemployment) are set by number of hours worked/dollars paid.
4) Liability issues with "were you at work when you received this injury"
5) Safety issues with working hours (OK, now that you've driven that bus as John Doe for 8 hours and you've hit your max duty hour limit, you can sign is a Richard Roe and do another shift)
Yes, many employers have inflexible policies on work shifts, either out of inertia or bad management. But perturbing the record keeping to work around it is a bad solution. Fix the underlying problem, don't band aid it.
At my current job I don't know if I place the fingerprint everyday or just hack the database.
Db accessible remotely via windows network share in a access protected password DB, it's clear I'm the only tech guy here.
Probably the reason they don't want fingerprint scanners is that its too easy for officials to get a clean print when the commit a crime or felony. I'm sure that the scanners are somehow tied in the law enforcement system...
I'm being serious here: what is the down side to someone having your fingerprint on file? Can they steal your identity? Access your bank account? Break into your home? I would argue if you answer 'Yes' to any of those, then those things aren't actually safe.
Why don't we just agree that fingerprints shouldn't be used for important things. For example...whenever I sign up to a forum that I'll post to once or twice...the password is almost always a word, all lower case, no symbols or numbers. Just a word. Why? Because I don't care if someone hacks that forum account. What're they gonna do...deface it?
Same for this fingerprint system. What're they gonna do? Clock me in so that I get paid when I'm not working? (Also...that's how the system will be gamed...and it's the employer's problem to fix not mine). Personally I'd be more worried about someone clocking me OUT.
I see a lot of doom and gloom here so I want an actual reason why fingerprint scanners are a bad idea, without some crazy-ass tinfoil hat logic where the government gets your fingerprint and extorts a confession from you for a crime you didn't do.
You could also use the workers Mobiles and a series of QR codes to verify that the workers are "in motion"
on 16092013 @ 09:00 Bob Smythe tagged QR code number 956D-12F3 (set Bob Smythe to On Shift) ... ...
on 16092013 @ 09:15 Bob Smythe tagged 956D-12M0 (east 5 Gents )
on 16092013 @ 12:15 Bob Smythe tagged 956D-12EE (exit portal set Bob Smythe to LUNCH)
on 16092013 @ 12:45 Bob Smythe tagged 956D-12EE (exit portal set Bob Smythe to On Shift)
on 16092013 @ 17:00 Bob Smythe tagged 956D-12F3 (set Bob Smythe to Off Shift)
do they really think that fingerprint scanners will work well with folks that regularly work with some of the nastiest Chems around??
How many of the worker still HAVE readable fingerprints??
(oh btw gloves can/do fail and even if they don't just waving a broom around does nasty things to your fingertips)
Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
How is the scanning of a fingerprint to clock in and out of work a violation of civil liberties, exactly?
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
So I've been fingerprinted about 6 times in my life, for various things ranging from employment/background checks/FINRA to weapons permits. I also use handscanners at datacenters and office buildings (which utilize some sort of scan of the shape of the back of my hand). Are my prints/biometrics stored somewhere? For the hand scanner, obviously some sort of representation of my hand is indeed stored on an in-house server. As for ink fingerprints or scanned fingerprints I've done over the years being stored-- don't know... don't care. I've never been "harassed" in any way shape or form due to this. I don't ever expect to BE harassed in any way shape or form. Of course, if I engage in some sort of criminal activity, I would care. Am I afraid of being falsely accused? Of course not. Am I just an apathetic naive simpleton, who by not caring has forfeited some sort of "civil rights" that will allow others to somehow be abused based on my "precedent". Seriously doubt it, but of course I'll be accused of that at least anyway. Oh well. And I sometimes make faces at surveillance cameras too, but don't really care either that they are "watching" me walk down a public street. Of course, if the expense of installing and using these systems was justified by them actually PREVENTING crimes, well....
Some industries used to have piece-work: you'd get paid a certain amount per part completed, assuming the majority of your parts were good (happened in electronics, clothing, etc.). Mechanized production tends to make this infeasible, these days, though.
Glad you admitted the "slippery slope" basis. Like all "slipper slope" arguments this one is an informal fallacy. You last statement would be considered a "red herring", another informal fallacy, as the TSA has nothing to do with Underground cleaner time sheets.
Your statements have two equivocations.
One: an informal fallacy is not necessarily a fallacy or, if you prefer the proper term for what has happened, a fallacy fallacy. Assuming there is an argumentative error when there is only a structural one(in this case only potentially).
Two: equivocating the TSA and underground cleaner time sheets. The original comparison, when analyzed charitably (something that is well known to be mandatory in formal logic) is how technology pressed into service in one marginal area for organizational advantage will eventually spread to cover larger areas. Another example, the internet. Once for academics and DoD people to communicate more effectively, the internet has now spread to the entire planet within one lifetime.
Essentially his argument is cogent and yours is not even valid.
I used to work at a super market that introduced a fingerprint system to clock on & off, and I ran into a much more immediate and serious issue - the majority of the time the scanner just could not read my fingerprints and I wouldn't get paid correctly as a result! A couple of other workers had similar issues, but I was by far the worst affected. I've also had similar issues with other finger print systems - when I used someone's laptop that could show an image of my fingerprints, we saw that there were huge missing sections in the middle. It also delayed my entry into Hawaii (fortunately their finger print system seems much better - it just took it a bit longer than usual to read my finger print). For a while at the supermarket this was OK as I couldn't even register in the system and was able to keep using the old system, but eventually management insisted that I had to register because they wanted to get rid of the old system. So, one shift instead of doing any work I had to stay with one of the office girls trying to register my fingerprints over and over until it finally managed to read one. You can guess what happened next - I wasn't able to use the old system and every single time I came into work or left I would have to try over and over for the damn thing to recognise me - and quite often it just wouldn't - leading to me not getting paid properly. If it managed to recognise me clocking on but couldn't recognise me clocking off the system would assume I worked for three hours (the legal minimum shift), even though I typically worked a five or more hour shift. It also meant that I would often delay the night manager from going home since I was the night-fill captain and we were supposed to leave together after everyone else (they had previously had a problem with a night manager who did their "shopping" after everyone else had gone home). When I couldn't clock on or off I ended up having to manually fill out a time sheet and get it signed by a manager and hand it to one of the office girls - only problem was they went home hours before I did (I was the night-fill captain, remember?) so I couldn't hand it to them in person at the end of my shift and half the time the sheet would go unnoticed by the office girl in the morning. It was a real nightmare and just one of the reasons I'm glad that I no longer work there.