Slashdot Mirror
Delta Replacing Flight Manuals with Surface Tablets
Frosty Piss writes "Delta Air Lines plans to buy 11,000 Microsoft Surface 2 tablets for its pilots to replace the heavy bundles of books and maps they haul around now. Delta says the Surface tablets will save it $13 million per year in fuel and other costs. Right now, each pilot carries a 38-pound flight bag with manuals and maps. Other airlines, including American and United, have been buying Apple's iPad for that purpose. One reason Delta picked a Microsoft device was that it's easier to give pilots separate sections for company and personal use, said Steve Dickson, Delta's senior vice president for flight operations. Another reason for picking the Surface tablet is that Delta's training software also runs on the same Windows operating system as the tablets, reducing the need to redo that software for another device, Dickson said."
Here in AMC (Air Mobility Command, USAF) we use the iPad with an OtterBox case. Hope there is a tough case for the Surface, because even is a nice jet like the C-17, these things take a beating.
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
... what could possibly go wrong?
I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
Because I can't imagine them doing this any other wise. As pointed out else where, this is going to take 2 more years. $5.5 mil for iPads, or $13 mil in fuel savings per year. Hmm... Someone help me with the math here.
And in two years, once the Surface 2 gets certified, what happens? Delta is now flying with 2 year old technology... whoopie.
I love the smell of burning paper. Or paper flying all around in a depressurized cabin...
Can you please come up with better arguments next time?
Someone from Microsoft probably performed a few 'favors' for someone from Delta...
Just sayin'
At least someone is buying any. I'd almost feel bad for Microsoft. Almost.
Considering the pilots fought to keep the iPads and didn't want Surface, there's more going on behind the scene here.
http://appleinsider.com/articles/13/09/30/delta-pilots-fought-against-deal-to-replace-ipad-flight-bags-with-microsoft-surface
Now MS has sold 11,023 tablets!
Microsoft tablets, huh? So what happens when the tablet succumbs to the inevitable blue screen of death?
What happens if the aircraft depressurizes?
They attach Charlton Heston to a cable and drop him in from a helicopter.
He wouldn't need any maps or manuals to land that bird.
Surface you said ? They aren't simply replacing the manuals with electronic tablets but with Surfaces ? Dear god.
Blue Sky of Death
Same as all the other electronics in the plane. Nothing.
The skin is a Faraday cage. That is why you've never heard of passengers complaining of that problem and why fly by wire planes don't fall out of the sky.
My understanding* is that many airlines are doing this, and the flight critical standard and emergency check-lists are still kept in hard copy. The material no longer on paper will be things like approach maps for a few hundred airports, and manuals for seldom-adjusted aircraft systems. Should such documents be required but unavailable due to misfunctioning tablets, air traffic controllers and the airline's dispatch centre would be able to assist by radio.
If there is a real pilot in the house, perhaps they could comment further.
* I am a non-pilot with an interest in aviation, so I try to follow such developments via internet news sites.
Quattuor res in hoc mundo sanctae sunt: libri, liberi, libertas et liberalitas.
Why don't they connect the thing directly to the autopilot and save about 350 pounds? And on top of that, they could save even more money on the pilot's salary.
They could also replace the stewardesses with motorized food carts, or even better, just put the tiny bags of peanuts (all three of them) in the seat pockets in front of you.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
Re What happens if the aircraft depressurizes?
In the old days with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Flight_5390 and your guided down.
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/1-1992%20G-BJRT%20Append.pdf
So the loss of tablet computer or charts is understood. The other aspect is keeping the tablet up to date eg. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossair_Flight_3597#Final_report.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
hey, can't you see I'm RTFMing ?
That they've sold more than 10K of them. If they get really lucky, maybe they'll sell 20K - over half way there.
Posting as AC for obvious reasons but I work for a major airline and Microsoft tried to do this exact thing to us. They offered to give them to us for free too but the backlash was too much. It's true the $0 up front makes the ROI reasonable (remember the ROI still includes project cost). The internal push back was enough that MSFT dropped it because they didn't want to impact there $2m++ enterprise agreement when they found out our exec's only wanted iPad's.
The only people pushing these shitty Surfaces is the out of touch internal IT management and Microsoft. Pilots, Exec's, internal customers and guests do NOT want these. It's iPad or "Samsung tablets" or nothing.
Oh, the same thing would happen to the tablet as what happens to the rest of the aircraft. Oh! What about the HF radios? What about the VHF radios? What about the radar and ident systems? What about the GPS, and the flight control computers? Oh? The lightning strike hits the metal skin of the aircraft, and continues on through the air. The lightning strike doesn't kill anyone onboard either, and none of their phones. Clearly you never studied Electronics Engineering. Perhaps you think when lightning hits your car, you are safe because of the rubber tires. And in is similar vein, your tablet (or any other electronic device) will magically burn up when the skin of the aircraft gets hit by lightning. Oh Noes. Now there are reasons why any microsoft product is brainlessly stupid for this, but that's another matter.
What happens when a stack of paper is struck my lightning? It burns. A tablet won't survive that either though.
What happens to you when the plane is struck by lightning and you're inside? Nothing. No ones laptop gets fried, none of the cargo gets fried, none of the passengers and none of the planes systems.
de-pressurising? The pressure is only going to go from 77kpa to ~35kpa, depending on the altitude. It's not like a plane is pressurised to sea level.
It's not like that crate of tablets in the cargo hold is going to explode because if it, with no moving parts, what is going to change if the device is powered on? Nothing.
I'd rather not have my plane controlled by anything Microsoft. If you want to save weight, prohibit fatties from flying or charge them more. I'm sorry navigating a multi-ton airplane at 500+mph is hard... but it is. It's just science.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
Pilots have complained that the displays are covered by a fine layer of Arizona desert sand that is virtually impossible to scrub off.
Microsoft would have offered a very sweetheart deal pricewise for this.
From Delta's standpoint it would also have the advantage in that almost nothing runs on it, meaning that people aren't going to muck with it install crap software and malware on the Surface RT is all but unheard of. They also almost certainly would have offered some type of enterprise management tools for the tablets from MS.
Enterprise support for the Ipad is a royal pain at best and tools are quite limited. The app store is oblivious to the concept that a computer could be owned my a company instead of a person. Support issues go far beyond these and their IT department doubtless didn't want to deal with it.
I'm not endorsing the Surface RT and I've certainly gone on the record here about how it's a terrible tablet. I'm just explaining the logic behind the order. They certainly could have made a much better choice than the Surface RT.
My iPad has only locked-up once in three years. The Surface I use for work locks-up several times a week. Do we really want something so unreliable in the cockpit?
Considering they bought the ARM version of the tablet, someone's going to be very disappointed (and probably in a lot of trouble) when they discover that it does not run the same operating system as their training software. At least not unless their training software only runs on an extremely limited number of low-power computers.
Good news is, Microsoft's deception campaign to trick people expecting to run Windows apps into buying their ARM OS is working.
Ahh - well, the plane is a sealed metal tube, right? And the pad is in the sealed metal tube right? What else can we call a sealed metal container.... wait for it.... A Faraday cage. That's right kiddies, If a plane gets hit with lightening, it will charge the skin of the plane, but not induce a current inside of the plane - this is why existing electronics in planes aren't fried. Yes, they are flight qualified, but all the laptops that the punters have in the plane don't get fried, the entertainment system doesn't get fried - basically, lightning isn't a big worry. I'm much more worried about other lightening effects (surface damage, fuel ignition - pretty sorted by now, etc) Now let's talk about depressurization. A computer with rotational media (a hard drive, where air pressure helps float the heads off of the platter) would probably not be too happy about having the air pressure radically change, especially in the downward direction - something about heads plowing little furrows in the disk surface. Similarly, devices that move air to cool their electronics might get a bit warm with the fans blowing a lot less N2 molecules over the heat exchangers. Which of these systems does a pad have? Microsoft may be less than brilliant when it comes to many of their business activities, but I don't even think that Monkey Boy would sign off on a tablet that had either a hard drive or a fan for cooling. So, what's going to be killed by depressurization? If you say the LCD, I'll slap you (lightly) so you'll look up and see the glass cockpit staring you in the face. Better arguments, please.
while trying to find information on the airport just about to land.
Error reading flash drive
Abort, Retry, Ignore?_
So they training software provider had already ported their product to RT. Does the .Net ARM desktop route work with enterprise side-loading keys?
Never mind two decades, the friggin air force has bombers in active service that were built in the 1950s.
An airplane doesn't need to play the newest version of angry birds, it needs to avoid injesting large birds.
It's not like they run Windows, so they're overrun with viruses if they aren't updated weekly. Oh shit.
Where do I find these? Local landfill?
In other words, think long and hard about having Steve Dickson make purchasing decisions for your company in the future....
I hope these work out a lot better than the Microsoft mobile scanners that we use on the ramp and in cargo to track bags/cargo. I'm 30 yards from the damn wireless transmitter and I lose signal at least once a day. Inside a giant warehouse. But yeah, I imagine they went with Microsoft tablets because most of the other computer systems Delta uses is Microsoft, so it streamlines things. However, over the past 6 months or so they have started to give out iPhones as company issued phones to managers and supervisors in the headquarters, but the ones on the ramp and other areas still use Blackberries.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
The pilot keeps his personal stuff on his tablet running windows, eh? Now there's a nice pathway for a virus... one that modifies the electronic manuals to display wrong flight paths or instructions for necessary maintenance.
Why hijack a plane when Mr. terrorist can sit back in his chair and hijack the tablet, causing the same damage?
These things should never be on a public network, and never have personal information or applications place on them.
nothing, nothing at all would happen cause its not hitting the freaking tablet and there are entire systems on board to take care of such an event
You prefer maybe an Apple device built with a totally-compelling user interface?
Microsoft Dick Wet 2013 RT vs. Microsoft Vista vs. Microsoft Blow Job .NET 2003
Siri: I didnt understand that....
Here's another lacking just as much, leading to a different conclusion. In 2006 Mac OS X 10.4 was the most recent version of OS X and it would run magnificently on an iMac from 1999 meanwhile Windows Vista was the most recent version of Windows and it would barely run on the hardware of 2005.
You're talking about forward compatibility of the hardware, which is a different topic altogether.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
so they can't just buy the el-cheapo $800 surface, they need the $1400 surface pro. may as well buy a laptop at that pricepoint.
Remember kids, if you're not paying for the service, YOU ARE THE PRODUCT THAT IS BEING SOLD.
As part of the deal, a new port of Microsoft Combat Flight Simulator will be released for Surface 2
"Ladies and gentlemen, this is your captain speaking. Sorry about the rough ride, and the attendants will assist you back into your seats, but I had Adolf Galland on my tail and couldn't shake him..."
Sir, the plane is not responding!
What does the flight manual say to do?
Nothing! But, the Autopilot said to "Sit on the damn tablet and rotate" before it stopped talking to me!
So in case of flight emergency the flight crew will have the speed of windows search to find the correct procedures. I feel safer already...
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
Wow. I didnt know Delta was using Windows RT internally for all those years .......
Looks like M$ is in panic mode and giving surfaces away for free just to get some PR and traction.
Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck.
Solution: carry 3 or 4 for extra redundency?
That's about equal really because my map and books run out of batteries all the time. Don't even get me started on how often the flash memory in them fails or that I drop it and it shatters.
Isn't this fairly common at this point? As I recall, both SAS and Norwegian have already been on the "digital flight documents" system for some time and they are hardly alone.
So what's new?
Right now, they have to fly with both the tablet and the physical books until the device is approved.
In case of emergency, they have to use the OFFICIAL books and not software version.
Luckily, all they have to do is retarget their VB apps for the Windows RT runtime...right? RIght? Isn't that what the rep said?
Anyone? Anyone?
As the main advantage cited is compatibility with existing training software, we can probably rule out Windows RT. The Pros I can understand, they are basically just conventional PCs in tablet form factor.
No-one wants a windows RT machien though. If you gave me one, I'd ebay it - and when it didn't sell, strip it down for parts.
Hey the pilots could get supervisory control over the planes Ada and/or Scada systems giving them technology at their fingertips that is above and beyond what the aircraft normally offers and avoiding an expensive systems upgrade. Security would be a major concern though.
Sure they'll work fine on the surface, it's when they get in the air I'd begin to worry.
Artificial intelligence is the study of how to make real computers act like the ones in the movies.
Because most Delta pilots already have an ipad with all the other things they need. I have two friends that fly for delta and have been using the ipad in the cockpit for over 2 years now.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
The Windows store is almost empty - less distractions for the users (pilots!).
They might also get a special custom tailored version of Windows that doesn't allow installing apps.
OTOH, it's quite dangerous as well, pilots may fall asleep of boredom ;)
Windows RT is Windows 8 compiled for ARM, more or less. It will be a lot less effort to port it to RT than it would be for iOS.
In 1993, I was working on a NASA project to make electronic documents the norm for flight operations - space, airplanes, mechanics, flight controllers, everyone. Our $3M project paid for itself after a few shuttle flights - just in the lack of paper to be carried into orbit.
Boeing was interested in using this for their manuals.
There are issues with not having paper and it takes a little effort and belief to make the switch-over. Flight controllers rejected the solution and were using paper again in about 2 yrs. I think the space station and shuttle used it for many years - they probably still do. In a cockpit, things are tight and having access to seldom-used documents on a pad, is probably find, but replacing daily use documents probably is NOT the best use.
I switched to ePub, html, and PDF documents about 15 yrs ago. I always strip any DRM, but honor the intent of the license. My tablet (Android) has 200+ books and reference items on it. I am not thrilled with the viewing programs available. Each seems more interesting in tracking my reading than anything else.
HTML is the best format - cross-platform, enough layout control, but not too much. Handles images nicely. Allows font scaling easily - text wraps automatically.
Epub a close 2nd - PDF is the worst.
The purpose of the documents matters. Occassional reference and I'm happy for pilots to have - critical checklists .. not so much.
now that the pilot's flight manuals run on batteries? Can be destroyed by dropping it? Is vulnerable to coffee spills?
The Sounder and Seahawks just Signed Delta as their flight provider, Paul Allen has been known to use one deal to strike another... http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=43&item=2109 maybe that is why they went Surface..
New meaning for Blue screen of death in 3...2...1...
Didn't Microsoft drop support for 16-bit apps under Win7? Or was it earlier?
As in, your actual old 32-bit application will run fine. But the 16-bit installer won't work anymore so you have to install it on another older (WinXP) machine and try to copy everything over, files and registry entries included. Classic Microsoft "compatibility".
Anyone ever heard of the pallet bug where all the colors are off? Try running StarCraft on Win7! There are workarounds, manual registry hacks, third party open-source kludges to fix Microsoft's bugs. But this compatibility is a joke.
So...do they have to turn these things off for takeoffs and landings?
Kinda defeats the purpose...
"Please make sure your electronic devices are powered off during take off and landing."
I mean, they're dangerous (!), so pilots can't use them during critical flight time. Right?
I know, we're about to have this restriction reset thanks to hindsight and sanity.
What could go wrong?
That brings the grand total of Surface tablets sold to 11,001.
They're obviously corrupt, buying the cheaper and better device... Sounds like the Apple police need to teach them a lesson about the dangers of ignoring the cartel...
MS DOS 6.22 tablet? Cool!
As a lifelong Microsoft hater, I have to admit that I love Windows 8, especially on a tablet for too many reasons to list. Yes, I have mastered virtually every OS since PC-DOS and have extensive experience with both iOS and Android tablets. Bottom line is that Win 8 works with damn near anything and MS deserves credit. I invite you to flame on.
Pilots usually know pretty well where they are going to be flying ahead of time. I know that I would always have backup paper with me for the usual trips. Don't worry about the 38 lbs. It is on wheels.
...they don't have to worry about anyone stealing them, since there is almost no market for them.
make imaginary.friends COUNT=100 VISIBLE=false