Telegraph Contributor Says Coding Is For Exceptionally Dull Weirdos

mikejuk writes "The UK Government is trying to figure out how to teach children to code by changing what is taught in schools. The Telegraph, a leading UK newspaper, has put the other side of the case: Coding is for 'exceptionally dull weirdo(s).' The recent blog post by Willard Foxton is an amazing insight into the world of the non-programming mind. He goes on to say: 'Coding is a niche, mechanical skill, a bit like plumbing or car repair.' So coding is a mechanical skill — I guess he must be thinking of copy typing. 'As a subject, it only appeals to a limited set of people — the aforementioned dull weirdos. There's a reason most startup co-founders are "the charming ideas guy" paired with "the tech genius". It's because if you leave the tech genius on his own he'll start muttering to himself.' Why is it I feel a bout of muttering coming on? 'If a school subject is to be taught to everyone, it needs to have a vital application in everyday life — and that's just not true of coding.' Of course it all depends on what you mean by 'vital application.' The article is reactionary and designed to get people annoyed and posting comments — just over 600 at the moment — but what is worrying is that the viewpoint will ring true with anyone dumb enough not to be able to see the bigger picture. The same attitude extends to all STEM subjects. The next step in the argument is — why teach physics, chemistry, biology, and math (as distinct from arithmetic) to anyone but exceptionally dumb weirdos."

Comments

brace yourself

[Sigvatr]

brace yourself for 1000+ angry comments

Re:brace yourself

[Austrian Anarchy]

brace yourself for 1000+ angry comments

No doubt.

Thing is, everybody does not need to be taught coding, but they really should be at least shown how to use a computer. In the same manner that everybody does not need a mandatory engine building class, though driver's education would be nice along with the basics on how to maintain an automobile. Even that is not mandatory in these parts.

Re:brace yourself

[houstonbofh]

But a thousand useless comments...
You can not stop the ignorant from promoting ignorance.

Re:brace yourself

[Ksevio]

This would be the perfect example where articles could by moderated as "Troll"

Re:brace yourself

[Opportunist]

Not really angry. More disappointed.

This, ladies and gentlemen, is why we don't get any kind of respect in management. Because that's what they see in us: The computerized equivalent of plumbers and bricklayers. The fact that they couldn't wrap their feeble minds around a tenth of what we have to understand intimately doesn't matter. What matters is that we're notoriously bad at marketing. Self-marketing, too.

I guess I'm not the only one who is amazed again and again how simple, trivial concepts can be impossible to grasp for allegedly intelligent people. And of course I consider what I can do fairly trivial because, well, let's be honest, it is. Still, there is an amazingly small subset of the human species that can even begin to understand what I'm actually doing. My move to management was quite an eye opener, and it showed me just HOW much people at the C-Level don't really understand about their company.

But they're good at self marketing. They're great at selling their ability that parallels the feat of being able to eat your lunch without spilling half of it on your tie as the biggest achievement in human history. Because, well, in a nutshell, "management skills" are trivial, at best. I was at first very intimidated by the idea that I should now "manage". Turns out it's not that much different from what you have to do anyway while you actually should be programming, just leave out doing some sensible work and you got it.

And that's simply what it boils down to: Techs are really bad at self marketing. We still mostly rely on getting the job done and getting it done well and hoping that people will notice. Bullshit, people don't care. People only listen to the loudmouth who keeps tooting his own horn.

Re:brace yourself

[Deep Esophagus]

This, ladies and gentlemen, is why we don't get any kind of respect in management. Because that's what they see in us: The computerized equivalent of plumbers and bricklayers. The fact that they couldn't wrap their feeble minds around a tenth of what we have to understand intimately doesn't matter.

And conversely, they have no clue what obstacles we face or why we claim our jobs are difficult. "So, yeah, can you also have it map each email address to the sender's DNA and use the link to record their conversations at home and send them to me sorted by topic? I'll need that by Thursday, or if you can get to it earlier that would be even better. I realize this was just intended to generate order confirmation emails, but it could be so much more if you'd only be willing to put some thought into it!"

Re:brace yourself

[gunzy83]

What you described can be summarized by the Peter Principle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Principle

Re:brace yourself

[epyT-R]

Having a baseline understanding of four function math (for finance), physics (mechanical advantage, kitchen/garage safety, home maintenance), biology (disease prevention, first aid), and even gym class (health fitness), is a requisite for living life even if the student never touches an equation again after high school.

Re:brace yourself

[rolfwind]

I would settle for people learning some more respect for the blue collar jobs amongst us. I suspect the countries with a higher proportion of "dull weirdos" in relation to "idea guys" will be the more prosperous ones in the future. As the old saying goes, genius is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration. Idea guys are great, but they're like the 1% inspiration. Too many of them around, and you have the "too many chiefs, not enough indians" problem rather quickly.

Re:brace yourself

[Anonymous Coward]

by irate plumbers and car mechanics. and the odd programmer.

by luck and work i have a job programming. but the most valuable lesson
i learned on my first real fend-for-myself job, delivering pizzas.
it takes real work and mental effort to do any job and
it is satisfying to do something well. even if it is simple.

so here's to all the people who do. any lazy fucker can be a critic.

capcha: twenty

Re:brace yourself

[biobogonics]

This, ladies and gentlemen, is why we don't get any kind of respect in management. Because that's what they see in us: The computerized equivalent of plumbers and bricklayers.

That's what happened to me today. I got a frantic call from the front desk. "Help, I can't print a recept - on any of 3 printers." Freeze. Deer in the headlights. Not a clue. The document in question was a PDF file displayed within a PDF reader. I quickly tried 2 printers and failed. The obvious solution, at least to me was to save the file to the desktop, then to a USB drive, then sneaker-net it over to my machine and print from there. Rebooted and the problem went away. Would anyone else have thought to save the file and print it elsewhere, no way, not in a million years. It's not just technical knowledge, but a particular way of thinking to solve problems.

I guess I'm not the only one who is amazed again and again how simple, trivial concepts can be impossible to grasp for allegedly intelligent people. And of course I consider what I can do fairly trivial because, well, let's be honest, it is.

I am amazed, in a technical newsgroup, how much trouble some scientists and engineers (I *hope* they are students...) have with simple programming concepts or using command line tools. One poster wrote a small novel to take an input file, extract a selected column of data and write that to an output file. That's a trivial 1 line program in AWK. It's not bad in Fortran, except that often people want to read the entire data file (of unknown length) into an array first instead of processing the input line-by-line. I guess the concept of INPUT-PROCESS-OUTPUT is too difficult. My experience with reading punched cards and generating line-printer reports *must* be worthless....

Re:brace yourself

[ruir]

Not only coders. I worked as a technical consultants for years for a consulting firm. It payed above average, however pure technical consultants (or for that matter, technical subcontractors) were seen as lowly, simply because people in the upper management only understood management and pretty reports. Anyone who didn't migrate to that "stage" didn't get senior state, period. They went so far of their way, even lying in public about technical people that would be promoted to senior state soon, once they got in a multi-million project in their hands for Africa, and were terribly afraid people left during that project.

Re:brace yourself

[roeguard]

Not really angry. More disappointed.

This, ladies and gentlemen, is why we don't get any kind of respect in engineering. Because that's what they see in us: glorified self marketers. The fact that they couldn't wrap their feeble minds around a tenth of what we have to understand intimately doesn't matter. What matters is that we're notoriously bad at coding. Self-marketing, too.

I guess I'm not the only one who is amazed again and again how simple, trivial concepts can be impossible to grasp for allegedly intelligent people. And of course I consider what I can do fairly trivial because, well, let's be honest, it is. Still, there is an amazingly small subset of the human species that can even begin to understand what I'm actually doing. My move to engineering was quite an eye opener, and it showed me just HOW much people in development don't really understand about their company.

But they're good at coding. They're great at selling their ability that parallels the feat of being able to write out a couple lines of gibberish as the biggest achievement in human history. Because, well, in a nutshell, "computer programming skills" are trivial, at best. I was at first very intimidated by the idea that I should now "program". Turns out it's not that much different from what you have to do anyway while you actually should be doing the normal day-to-day work, just leave out communicating that work to others and you got it.

And that's simply what it boils down to: management is really bad at writing code. We still mostly rely on getting the job done and getting it done well and hoping that people will notice. Bullshit, people don't care. People only listen to the loudmouth who keeps tooting his own horn.

If you don't make any effort to appreciate how difficult and important skillful management is, how can you expect understanding from the other side of the aisle? Just because someone is over a team or has the word "manager" in their title doesn't mean they know what they are doing any more than a half of the coders out there -- be honest, at least half the code you read is garbage. It doesn't mean that coding is a trivial skill any more than management is a trivial skill. If anything, it proves the opposite.

Re:brace yourself

[clockwise_music]

I play guitar in a rock band named Toehider - we supported Devin Townsend last month. It rocked.

I've interviewed the guys in Dream Theater, Trivium, Machine Head & Megadeth.

I've found over 300 geocaches, quite a few of them in other countries (Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Singapore, China).

I mix sound at my church, lead one of the bands and play drums in another band. I'm teaching myself piano at the moment.

I've produced video clips for my own music and had them shown on TV. I've performed my own compositions on TV (thanks "Guitar Gods"!)

I've had a few of my songs featured on "The angry video game nerd" episodes and released an album of them on iTunes. I'm working on a second album.

I was interviewed for ABC TV's "Good Game" last year.

I'm writing a few iphone apps at the moment.

I've worked for tiny non-for-profits, huge corporations, energy companies, travel companies, entertainment companies & beer companies (man that one was goooood, free beer thursday and fridays!!).

I regularly drive my wife nuts by constantly picking up a new hobby every 6 months and then moving onto the next one.

I'm still trying to work out how I can live with myself, being so boring. In fact I think I'll just fall asleeeeeeeeep.

And BTW, all of my programming friends are just as interesting. Just like you guys on slashdot. You're ace too. Stay cool, your pal, LB.

Re:brace yourself

[WaywardGeek]

I have to tell a story... yeah... I'm old. My little bother was hot. He couldn't help it, girls just couldn't leave him alone. Someone convinced him to do modeling as a career for a while, but after missing shoots to enter skateboard contests, his modeling career was over. Still, Hallmark's "Hunk" calendar ran him as Mr April two years running.

Anyway, while he was screwing every girl who ever wanted a hot guy, I got my engineering degree. I dated the president of the math club, and spent a night in jail for hacking phone systems. One night during summer break, my brother had something to say to me. He said, "I respect what you're doing." I knew he meant he respects what I'm doing even though any reasonable person would not. I couldn't argue with the guy living every hormone driven teenager's dream, but I thought it was funny. I was preparing to make the world a better place, but I suppose being a girl's dream date counts.

We are geeks. There's something wrong in our minds that makes us happy spending time typing on a keyboard rather than chasing women. When I change the world in concrete measurable ways, the feeling is euphoric, and programming is the way I help change the world.

Re:brace yourself

[hjf]

This, ladies and gentlemen, is why we don't get any kind of respect in management. Because that's what they see in us: The computerized equivalent of plumbers and bricklayers.

no. THIS is why you don't get any respect from management. Because you're a pretentious douche who thinks you're better than anyone else. You think you have a god-given gift, and that the company works solely because of your "coding skills". You think you're better and more important to the company that Betty at accounting. That stupid bimbo that keeps breaking her printer (except betty is a CPA and she went to college and has a degree. She doesn't know how to fix her printer but she's much smarter than you when it comes to taxes, and she can do it a million times faster than you. And better. And she pays less taxes than you, because she's better than you at that). You also think you're better than your retard boss, that idiot, who the fuck does he think he is? He's a "boss" just because he's got an MBA, pfft... joke degrees (except your boss worked his ass of from nothing and now he owns a company. Because he knows a thing or two. And also, he drives a BMW and you drive a used toyota. Gee, if you're so much better than him, how come you don't have your own company?)
And yes, you of course think you're better than a simple bricklayer (except you are a little wuss that wouldn't stand 1 hour of brick laying work. And you'd do it completely wrong). And plumbers? Pfft... you can google how to fix that leaky faucet. How hard can that be? I mean an idiot plumber with his asscrack showing can do it, why can't you? You're a million times smarter than him (except he can design and install all of a house's water system, with no problems, no leaks, and do it in a day, while you will still be googling what kind of pipe is better).

You are not special. You're a part of a company just like that stupid bimbo, just like the idiot boss, and just like the dumb janitor. Except: CPAs, Bosses and janitors have been in companies forever. And companies have worked without computers for centuries.

You know how you get respect from management? By doing your work right. By questioning them, and by not being a smug asshole when you do that. When asking for requirements, work with them, ask exactly what they need. Lead them to where you think their solution should be and see. Then make a small project, talk it over with management again, and only after they've approved that, code it. Ah yes... all of that is boring! It's stupid! You want to code! Release early, release often! WELL NO. Management doesn't appreciate half-baked solutions. They expect things to be working. They don't want a mockup or half the implementation. They want it to work when you present it to them. They are not technical. They don't want to be technical. They couldn't care less about how it works inside. They want it to WORK.

When you get all of that over your head, you'll understand a lot of things. The most important being: you're not as special as you think you are.

(You means "the reader". Not OP. But yeah, also OP in particular)

Re:brace yourself

[narcc]

We are geeks. There's something wrong in our minds that makes us happy spending time typing on a keyboard rather than chasing women.

What a ridiculous negative stereotype. Just because you spent your teens and early 20's behind a keyboard doesn't mean that the rest of us were socially awkward introverted weirdos.

I found plenty of time for girls. I suspect many other "geeks" did as well. It was not an either-or scenario.

What you really want to say is "I had a crummy adolescence, but it's only because I was super-smart!" Which is ... very sad.

Stop spreading that ridiculous myth! Back to your parents basement with you!

Re:brace yourself

[hjf]

He started his comment by calling himself better than bricklayers and plumbers. You can almost guess what the rest of his comment would be after that. And most answers to him were back-patting me-too comments. You can see how "coders" see themselves. But they, sadly, can't see that.

Re:brace yourself

[mark-t]

It's very easy to take something for granted when it's doing what you expect. People notice bugs in software, they don't notice that it's doing what it's supposed to.

This is why I think it's so hard to get respect as a software developer... what we do is often completely invisible to most people.

Re:brace yourself

[ArbitraryName]

The computerized equivalent of plumbers and bricklayers.

Plumbing and masonry are skilled trades. An apprenticeship in either of those trades is a few years, easily the equivalent of a college degree. And that's just to get a journeyman ticket. So, yeah. Programmers are about in line with that.

Re:brace yourself

[wagnerrp]

It's not bad in Fortran, except that often people want to read the entire data file (of unknown length) into an array first instead of processing the input line-by-line.

Well to be fair, Fortran has some pretty funky built in file IO constructs, and if you're doing binary data, the entire array must be read in at once.

Re:brace yourself

[BitZtream]

People who had a crummy adolescence for the reasons you're stating aren't really that smart. If they were, they would have had a much better adolescence.

Just because someone can use a PC doesn't make them smart, if you can't deal with people, they're probably not nearly as smart as they think they are.

Re:brace yourself

[BitZtream]

This, ladies and gentlemen, is why we don't get any kind of respect in management. Because that's what they see in us: The computerized equivalent of plumbers and bricklayers. The fact that they couldn't wrap their feeble minds around a tenth of what we have to understand intimately doesn't matter. What matters is that we're notoriously bad at marketing. Self-marketing, too.

You (and me) aren't really any different than a plumber or mechanic. Programming isn't really all the different than working on cars.

You'll never get any respect because you keep acting like you're more important than you actually are. Programmers are a dime a dozen, if you visit India, you get a 100 for a buck. There are VERY few programmers who are special. Most are absolutely shitty, but non-techies don't realize it, they do realize that these programmers are arrogant pricks however.

Its mind boggling that you think for some reason what you do is special even though millions of others are just as capable of doing it as you are.

Re:brace yourself

[sjames]

Actually, since he was an engineer and now he's management, it seems he DID make that effort and was successful at it (since he's not an ex-manager).

Re:brace yourself

[gstoddart]

What you really want to say is "I had a crummy adolescence, but it's only because I was super-smart!" Which is ... very sad.

Stop spreading that ridiculous myth!

But ... but ... it's the only thing that soothes the crushing existential pain. ;-)

And, for the record, I think it could be a generational thing -- because up through high-school, interest in computers was a very rare thing for all but the highly nerdy, and in university my comp. sci classes to begin with were pretty much made up of the socially awkward introverted weirdos across the board, at least the ones who passed; the rest some how ended up not continuing on. But over the span of a few years I could see differences and see that the classes had a slightly different makeup of people.

But in the early 80s, the people who were geeks, pretty much were the stereotypical archetypes. They hadn't yet invented the jock-geek subspecies I saw come a long much later, and the rocker-geek subspecies was a cultural impossibility at the time.

Believe it or not, for some of us (to varying degrees), that myth wasn't as far from the truth as one might think. Of course, the nerd umbrella also included that one autistic kid in the school, the music geeks, and the fat guy with adenoids. Not all the nerds were into computers -- but the egregious social awkwardness was unmistakable from orbit. ;-)

So, show some care -- for some of us, Breakfast Club is a surprisingly accurate depiction of the social strata in schools in the 80s. Some of us related to that 'myth' more than anything else, even if it is a little cliche. :-P

Re:brace yourself

[theshowmecanuck]

Too many ideas by "idea guys" are just retarded and shouldn't see the light of day.

Re:brace yourself

[Kjella]

I've got a pretty good idea of what I'm doing and programming computers well does require a lot of skill that's borderline autistic in the real world. I'm sure your teachers too did some kind of "How dumb can a computer be?" exercise where you tried instructing the teacher to put jam on a piece of bread and he tried acting as dumb as possible making you Lay. Out. Each. Step. Exactly. Computers are like that and we accept that, you've got nobody to blame but yourself because it did exactly what you told it to. But the rest of the world isn't like that, if coworkers or a dog or a three year old showed the same utter inability to work out the details we'd start wondering if there was something wrong with their intelligence, not ours. If the recipe says a cup of sugar, you don't throw the cup itself in the mix.

The same goes for the ability to anticipate every possible unexpected and improbable circumstance that might occur, normal people might think ahead on what they'd do in a few common or anticipated situations but a computer expects you to Lay. Out. Every. Exception. Exactly. In real life for one you'd never get out get door but even if you did it'd be in full survival gear in case you fell into a sinkhole and you'd still fail because the road was blocked and you didn't plan any alternative routes. For most people most of the time they'll simply cross that bridge when they get to it, there's no need to go all OCD and plan out everything in excruciating detail ahead of time. Yet that's what we have to do because the computer is utterly unable to deal with any situation on its own without instructions.

Finally normal people don't manage resources like programmers do, if they're cooking dinner they collect the pots and pans and other utensils they need from where ever they were put last and clean them if necessary. Even with managed languages where you don't have to free the memory used, you still need to destroy the objects you create, close the connections you opened, release the locks you've gotten and Manage. Every. Resource. Exactly. Everything must be kept track on in detail and put back in exactly the same place in exactly the same state as you found it. If you had a kitchen managed like a computer I'd say you were suffering from massive OCD, not just having it tidy and keeping things in the usual places. A cooking process doesn't die because one thing is out of place, a computer process does.

Of course you could say that's two different settings that you turn on when you get to work and turn off when you go home, but we're not machines and we can stop caring and be a slob at home but it still changes how we think. A lot of it is simply mental training, because you need to plan out so far ahead in such detail it naturally translates to every other situation you come across in life too. Personally I'd like the ability to live a bit more in the moment, to lose that "big picture" and just live in the here and now and not care so much about tomorrow. There is such a thing as overthinking it and it tends to be a bit of a party pooper, have fun today and worry about the hangover tomorrow. Too much rationality is dull.

Re:brace yourself

[goose-incarnated]

What a stupid story - I spent my youth programming computers, building electronics, "hacking" (whatever the fuck it means now ... it used to mean something very different in my youth) and screwing lots of girls. You've had a sad life, man.

Re:brace yourself

[rastos1]

Are you serious?

In a software company (in opposite to company where the IT department mostly keeps the software running) I'm really the one who's "work makes the company work" and it is really my work that the company is selling and turning into profit.

Betty does not have to do that much thinking when it comes to taxes. Some bureaucrat comes up with a maze or rules and she is good at navigating that maze. And adapt to a change in that maze every few year/months. So what if she went to college and has a degree? Does it prove anything? Most programmers have that too. What she, and many others, can't, in opposite to programmers, is to think for herself. Analyze a problem and come up with a solution. I don't fix the printer by going to a training program for a week and learning how to fix that particular model. I solve it by looking up the blink codes, verifying the connectivity, understanding how a printer works, etc.

Sure "companies have worked without computers for centuries". Go tell a company that it can exist without cars for a week. They can go back to horses if they need some transportation. Let us know how well that works.

My boss did not work his ass off to work up from the bottom. He comes from a family that supplied him with the investment money for the startup and he got lucky by being at the right place at the right time and making the connections. He was able to do that because he is better at self-marketing. On the other hand why would I have to aim for owning the company? Is that a holly grail or something?

I don't claim that I'm a better then a bricklayer or a plumber. I'm not that elitist. I've also seen a number of bricklayers and plumbers that produce a shoddy work. And those that don't are comparatively expensive to me. That's why I fix my own faucet too. Without having any schooling on that. And it does not drip.

Management? I do have their respect. I got unusually lucky. But be sure that mostly they do not "want it to work when you present it to them" and they do not want me to "do my work right". They want it to "sort of work". Yesterday. Under the budget. They don't care how well the code is structured because they can't "sell" that to a customer and they don't get to maintain it 10 years down the road. You don't get to put that in a marketing presentation.

In my opinion, GP is absolutely right. We suck at self-marketing. That's also why the OS made by the programmers for the programmers does not have double digit desktop market penetration.

Re:brace yourself

[Patch86]

You also think you're better than your retard boss, that idiot, who the fuck does he think he is? He's a "boss" just because he's got an MBA, pfft... joke degrees (except your boss worked his ass of from nothing and now he owns a company. Because he knows a thing or two. And also, he drives a BMW and you drive a used toyota. Gee, if you're so much better than him, how come you don't have your own company?

You're just as foolish as the OP, but in the other direction. MY boss didn't work his way up from anything- he's a guy who applied for the job of departmental manager and got given it. The company's CEO didn't work his way up from anything, either- he's an upper-middle class guy, who was born to an upper-middle-class family, who went to a private school followed by a good University, got his degree in business and accounting, got a job as a finance guy in our company, and a few decades later found himself in a position to apply for the top job.

Now I'm not knocking either of them, or any of the others. They do a useful job and they do it well. But don't romanticise it- they're no different from anyone else in the company, including the techies. They learned a skill and do a job, and that's it. They deserve due respect for their skills, but the techies deserve due respect for theirs.

I see the problem all the time. You can have a guy with a masters in computer science and a guy with a masters in law in a room together with a senior manager, and see how they're treated differently. Despite the fact they're both highly trained professionals, the lawyer will get the respect due to an experienced businessman, and the IT consultant will get treated like a greasemonkey. You can even see it when looking at people like senior Enterprise Architects (just about the seniority "peak" for the IT field in my sort of company), and how they aren't treated with quite the same deference as their equivalents from other departments.

Re:brace yourself

[kermidge]

Indeed. I saw the same thing at MSU in East Lansing during the mid to late '60s, then watched the shifts you mentioned over the next few decades.

At the time I attended, the geeks were lumped as "the math-dorm-ADS-crowd". ADS - Alumni Distinguished Scholar scholarship competition and award, dorms because in those years of _in loco parentis_ the first two years had to be lived on campus unless you were married - the geeks mostly didn't object much; math is obvious (no degree yet in computer science), and crowd used ironically. Outward signs include glasses, pocket protectors, and slide rules - oft-times hanging from a belt clip.

And your observation on 'the big lumping together' is spot on. There are some sub-species of geek these days but I expect overall there's still the big lumping to achieve efficiency of disdain.
----
Back then, the distinction we had in our own minds, when it needed to be used, was between computer scientists and data-processing professionals (it was all D.P. then), and maybe hacker - the guys and gals at three in the morning between floors pulling cable as readily as coding over a hiccup in the batch scheduler. Today, it's more by level of abstraction when you get to the programming portion. I think most use it in their own heads even if unawares. (many liberties taken, below...)

There's the program designer - the software architect, project lead, whathaveyou. Takes goal or task and limns it. The big picture part. Goals, tests, milestones, org chart, flow chart, etc. Interfaces management.

The programmer - breaks it on down to modules, subs, the 'what has to happen here' and 'how this fits into'. Points out gotchas.

The coder - yeah. Nuts and bolts. We'd like to presume he can test and validate input and double-check with programmer to avoid gaping barn doors of security problems. He's often the lucky fellow who gets to do the documentation because the programmer can't be bothered with things that are beneath him.

And all three layers of abstraction and in-group societal roles are often right between our own ears. Can be distracting but makes it easy to say, "hey, we could move this over here and save a bunch on inter-process comms" or "y'know, if we took this other approach, we could eliminate this whole section and also streamline the alternative."

Of course, that only works in the old days or for small projects. Anything else can be a right charley-foxtrot no matter what.

Now, for the guy who regards the whole thing the same as plumbing or carpentry... point to the weather app on his phone.

"See this? Tap, and you get a weather report and forecast?"
Yeah.
"Wanna know how they do that?", glance at watch, "In three and a half minutes; impress your friends?"
Yeah, ok.
Then show him - languages, stuff that can be grabbed from sources and tables, what has to be written from scratch, how it all fits in a program on phone, on a server somewhere, a bit on how it's displayed, call up a page of code from anything so he can see how weird and arcane it is... and you're done. [Warning: it really should all be done in the three and a half minutes. Because you said so, and it's also impressive as all get out.]
"Hey, I'm dry, ready for a brew?" get him one, maybe he gets you one, talk about other stuff or move on. Either way, you've done your part to pass on some stuff, get some cred, make _him_ feel in the know and that's huge - and he's a bit more aware and maybe not so ready to be so easily dismissive in future.

Congrats - you've made cross-species contact. And a friendly-wave-in-passing acquaintance down at the local. Networking, man, and good human fun also.

Re:brace yourself

[znrt]

If you don't make any effort to appreciate how difficult and important skillful management is, how can you expect understanding from the other side of the aisle? Just because someone is over a team or has the word "manager" in their title doesn't mean they know what they are doing any more than a half of the coders out there -- be honest, at least half the code you read is garbage. It doesn't mean that coding is a trivial skill any more than management is a trivial skill. If anything, it proves the opposite.

in an ideal world you might be right but it's clear to me that GP speaks from experiencie: if good coders are scarce, good managers are a rarity. so there would be some logic in the assumption that management is more complex/difficult/skill demanding than coding, but then good management almost never happens, actually.

it's a fuzzy profession. you know a good manager when you almost don't notice he's been there for a while, by his mid/long term effects. bad code can be spotted immediately, but bad management takes time to judge and even then it's often tolerated because it's a trust position, failure can't be inequivocally attributed (even in absence of lame excuses or scapegoats which are common) and anyway bad management is the norm (so the replacement won't probably be any better), and even so stuff gets most of the time done somehow anyway, so why bother. that's the perfect soup for incompetents and assholes to bubble naturally up, do the math.

i don't have any problem being a bricklayer for a living, and doing it right. call me dull weirdo now, and get out of the way, i have bricks to lay! :D

Re:brace yourself

[ruir]

And this comment, and being modded to insightful, represents another problem. People see technical people in different light because they evaluate them by the patterns they know. Technical people, well, things people are dumb because they also evaluate them by the patterns they are used to. Management doesn't value technical people also because they rule by what they know or don't know, and because for them everyone are like "Betty" or the janitor, for that matters. I don't know what world you live in, but your Betty makes half the salary of a competent IT guy, and you can find Bettys by the dozens.

Re:brace yourself

[trev.norris]

Heh, thanks for the laugh. I've had plenty of days dealing with managers who put on deadlines without understanding the tech, haven't provided a specification, don't have a planned architecture and ask impatiently "Well, why can't you just do X?" Who also don't understand that more programmers doesn't mean it'll be done faster, and uses us as scapegoats when things don't work but takes all the credit when they do.

At a software company, the programmers are special. Because they're the ones turning the product that gives everyone else a job. I'd say the same thing about any other position at any other business where they're the reason the business exists. You see, we aren't just cogs in a wheel, but MBA driven management has proven to me time and again that we're seen that way. Come back after you've solved a (software level) complex problem or coded a unique solution and known that if you hadn't been there it wouldn't have happened.

Re:brace yourself

[kermidge]

Nice. Some really good comments by the time I got here, but you get the in-a-nutshell award. Last line's a killer. Now, a good critic can separate wheat from chaff, back up with good argument and examples, lead to a bit of learning, but good critics are rare. So I'll take the doers every time.

The "I'm so glad I'm a beta" elitism crap has done much harm. I wonder, is that really so much down to human nature, or more part of the rationale for self-promoting sanctimony?

Re:brace yourself

[luxifr]

People who had a crummy adolescence for the reasons you're stating aren't really that smart. If they were, they would have had a much better adolescence.

yeah, because being smart makes it easy to not get depressed from being marginalized for just being too different to be socially lovable or even acceptable by your peers.
after all it's adolescents especially, who are very reasonable, empathetical beings, which are rarely biased towards trends and who never practice prejudice based on those.
ah, but I think I see your point: If they were smart, they could easily *pretend* to be a better social fit. They could easily just deny who they really are, follow the masses. That suure must make them happy eventually, doesn't it?

You're an idiot!

Re:brace yourself

[Tassach]

Anyone who's worked for a company that uses the Mongolian Hoarde technique of software development can tell you that "not enough Indians" (literally) isn't the problem.

Re:brace yourself

[Anonymous Coward]

Question: Why do we try to make software development a widely available skill? Clearly many people don't want to learn it, and forcing them to learn it anyway just creates negative associations. Later on, these people who don't want to program will still be available to do the job, badly, reducing the quality of software for everybody and lowering the pay for those who want to program and can actually do a good job of it.

I can see the benefit of being able to analyze and structure problems in most non-programming situations, but there are other strategies too and some people simply prefer paying someone else, trial-and-error, hammering away at problems in futility or living with the unsolved problem. To quote Dr. Lexus: "There are plenty 'tards out there living really kick-ass lives." And they like it that way. They think we're the dull ones.

Re:brace yourself

[biobogonics]

Well to be fair, Fortran has some pretty funky built in file IO constructs, and if you're doing binary data, the entire array must be read in at once.

Not modern Fortran. Most compilers now support stream I/O. List directed I/O and internal read-write have been around for a long time.

BTW, part of my job is management of a small business. If I had a business card, it would list my title as JOAT or CCBW (chief cook and bottle washer).

Re:brace yourself

[Infestedkudzu]

90's child : 35 now : one foot in one out of the internet age. If this was 20 years ago I'd give this guys story a lot of credit. I'm curious how a 18 year old now views it. It seems to me that the new generation has plenty of socially awkward programmers and a good number of confident people programming. As someone that spent all his high school time getting laid, I don't think you'll find anyone that is a great programmer and popular as both take a lions share of time to develop. And learning to be cool at 22 isn't the same as 16. But, same goes for coding.

We are geeks. There's something wrong in our minds that makes us happy spending time typing on a keyboard rather than chasing women.

What a ridiculous negative stereotype. Just because you spent your teens and early 20's behind a keyboard doesn't mean that the rest of us were socially awkward introverted weirdos.

I found plenty of time for girls. I suspect many other "geeks" did as well. It was not an either-or scenario.

What you really want to say is "I had a crummy adolescence, but it's only because I was super-smart!" Which is ... very sad.

Stop spreading that ridiculous myth! Back to your parents basement with you!

Re:brace yourself

[Mirvnillith]

I prefer gardening, because it's a more creative profession with less strict "correct" ways of doing things, but a general "feel" of a correct result. And constant attention to details. And the need to return to things others consider "done" to keep them fresh.

Re:brace yourself

[eam]

His eyes will glaze over at 10 seconds.

Re:brace yourself

[Opportunist]

For this, I had an old brass oil lamp on my desk. Usually when someone came with an idea like that I handed it to him with the suggestion to rub it and hope for the best.

Re:brace yourself

[Opportunist]

Not necessarily. The Peter Principle says that everyone gets promoted 'til he is incompetent. But please explain to me the incredible amount of high level management dunces that would not have survived the promotion past middle management if the Peter Principle had been applied to them.

Hell, they would not have left the mail room.

Re:brace yourself

[somersault]

Some might call it sad to think that screwing "lots" of girls is important. Sure, screwing is fun. It is pointless, but satisfying to an extent (because natural selection). Having lots of partners has always seemed to me kind of narcissistic and unnecessary. Saying that others have led a sad life just because they're not slutty is a bit much. What's wrong with him preferring to have a girlfriend rather than lots of random encounters?

Re:brace yourself

[Opportunist]

I'm at C-Level (It's just CISO, I'm only the "tech spook", but it's a C, ok?). So I guess I may dare say I play with the "management boys" today. And when you spend time with them, you start losing any and all respect you might have had at one point.

Maybe with the one noteworthy exception being the CFO, that guy knows his shit and is probably the only reason the rest of our "movers and shakers" didn't shake the company to cinders while moving it past the edge of the abyss. There are times when our product meetings feel a bit like one of the last days in the Führerbunker where Hitler moves about armies that don't exist anymore. Likewise, these people plan how to sell stuff we neither have nor can't possibly produce in any reasonable time. Not to mention that half of their proposals make me go pale, either because of the liability involved or because of the questionable legality of their ideas.

Sorry, but there is no semblance of respect for these goons left anymore. Just thinking that they get about 5-10 times what an actually working person takes home makes me cry.

Re:brace yourself

[FireFury03]

Not really angry. More disappointed.

This, ladies and gentlemen, is why we don't get any kind of respect in management. Because that's what they see in us: The computerized equivalent of plumbers and bricklayers.

I would imagine that the plumbers and bricklayers also get pissed off with this kind of attitude.

Have you ever tried building a wall? Tried doing it as quickly and neatly as a professional bricky? These are all skilled professions that require a lot of training and experience. What makes you think that programmers and engineers should be seen differently to other skilled professionals? Frankly, I find it depressing that *any* skilled professional should be seen the way the "journalist" sees software developers and the way you obviously see other professions.

Re:brace yourself

[Opportunist]

A good manager is easy to spot. Like you say, you don't even know he's there. You notice his presence by your requirements to do your work being met. You notice him by that server being available when you need it, you notice him when your new work place is set up when you arrive at your new location, you notice him when there is no red tape holding you back.

Good management is when you ensure that your people can do their work. Simple as that. You set the goals and you give them the means to reach them. That's pretty much all you have to do, provided you have a good, motivated team that's willing to work. Well, I have the luxury to hand pick my crew and making it a very nice place to work at (since you can do your work instead of getting entangled in red tape, because I'm busy rolling that out of the way), people are quite eager to join our (small but very powerful) team.

I don't need to "supervise", I don't need to breathe down their necks. People are VERY eager to stay up here instead of being shifted back down to programming or administration (which I hear are not soooooo stellar positions to work at). I don't need scapegoats (I got plenty of them, they're sitting around me in pretty much every management meeting. It's interesting how nobody gets any kind of trouble once you can convince a C-Level that it's HIS and ONLY HIS fault some manure hit the propeller).

I need people willing and able to work, to dedicate their working hours to my projects and guess what? I get them.

Re:brace yourself

[Opportunist]

OK, let me rephrase that: (Most) Managers' skills are trivial, at best.

Re:brace yourself

[GospelHead821]

My hunch is that the drive to force more kids to learn programming is a facet of a bigger issue. There's a two-faced problem in the state of college education. One, the supply of college educated people is probably too high. Two, the quality of high-school educated students entering college (or the workforce) is too low. Both devalue the end result of a college education. This initiative to teach more computer programming to high school students is, I think, a recognition that we need to expect more of high school graduates. A program that makes high school graduates marginally more employable and which builds a stronger foundation for a meaningful, rather than remedial, college education, is probably a good thing. On the other hand, I think that policy-makers are still trying to plug holes in a leaky dam rather than devoting serious thought and resources to building better dams.

Re:brace yourself

[Opportunist]

Ever tried making up for a bad guitarist by adding another? Doesn't work that way, and neither does it work in programming or math.

THIS is maybe the best illustration of why adding more manpower isn't always the solution.

I hope I may use that where relevant.

Re:brace yourself

[FireFury03]

Thing is, everybody does not need to be taught coding, but they really should be at least shown how to use a computer. In the same manner that everybody does not need a mandatory engine building class, though driver's education would be nice along with the basics on how to maintain an automobile. Even that is not mandatory in these parts.

Everybody does not need to be taught maths (beyond basic arithmetic), everybody does not need to be taught physics, everybody does not need to be taught metal work, everybody does not need to be taught art, everybody does not need to be taught a second language. And yet, it is mandatory for state schools in the UK to teach all of these things, and more, because having a broad knowledge is generally a good thing even if it isn't directly applicable to your chosen career... and that's even if you've chosen a career - we're talking about teaching some basic coding to 7 year olds, who frankly won't have chosen a career yet so giving them a broad education is even more important.

Even after you've chosen your career, you'll find a broad knowledge to be beneficial. For example, I was helping my fiancée do some statistical analysis a few months back. She's a doctor, so you might say "absolutely no programming experience necessary", and yet as part of her work she had to audit several years' worth of historical data and draw statistical conclusions from it. With no coding knowledge, left to her own devices she would've been spending days manually summing up numbers from stacks of ancient data; on the other hand I spent a few minutes writing some simple python code to do a lot of the analysis for her. All the coding was trivial, but to someone who has never written any code it was impossible - that's the kind of thing that people in all sorts of professions need to be able to do.

Re:brace yourself

[Opportunist]

Odd. But CEOs are entitled to that attitude, even though the average bum could have run the company to the ground and whine for some government bail out. Must be something about that three letter title...

But aside of that, yes, there are many programmers. Many, many horribly BAD programmers. All of which are worse than useless in security. In security, what matters is not that what you create works, what matters is that it cannot be made to work contrary to your intentions. And while this sounds obvious, it's far from it, as you can easily identify by the amount of 0day exploits floating about.

I need one of those few dozen people who can do that. But then again, most companies would need one of the few dozen CEOs that can actually lead a company.

Re:brace yourself

[Opportunist]

Well, I didn't have a teacher. I had a computer. My dad knew nothing about those things back when he bought me my first one, but he know they are "the future" and so I needed one. Still I'm incredibly thankful for that gift.

I caught on pretty quickly. Computers and I work well together, mostly because of my OCD, having to plan EVERY SINGLE POSSIBLE way something could turn out. I hate surprises, and the obsession to have a plan for everything and every kind of possible event sure helped my ability to come up with watertight programs. Process management is something that should be handed to computer geeks as well, it just is something they do by default to every kind of job anyway.

One of my bosses once said in joking that I sure have a process for going to the toilet. I didn't have the heart to tell him that I do.

Re:brace yourself

[VortexCortex]

What you said;

Thing is, everybody does not need to be taught coding,

What I heard:
"Everybody does not need to be taught math, or driving, or history."

In the US, you have a hard time getting by if you don't learn to drive unless you live in specific cities with good public transportation. If you don't know how to code, you really don't know how to operate a computer. Full stop. It's true. BASIC is fucking simple, I've taught groups of 10 year olds, and alternately many other scripting languages -- Today I teach JavaScript to 8 year olds at the civic center. So much of what they do is in a browser now, not knowing how to manipulate that system is a terrible disadvantage. Folks complain all the damn time about bullshit they could write a ten line script to do for themselves if they actually knew how to use a damn computer.

It's just like not learning to drive in an environment where that's pretty much a requirement to function. Driving is life threatening and requires constant vigilance -- Coding is MUCH easier; No, really. It is. Think about it. It's about the same level as algebra. Bonus, if you teach a kid to code, they can apply mathematics to real life. Who in their right mind would teach Mathematics to kids and NOT give them the tiny bit of knowledge required to immediately apply those skills to the real / online world they live in? It's fucking ludicrous, and you are a moron.

Re:brace yourself

[Opportunist]

It's a middle thing. I think of it as some kind of job similar to, say, creating jewelry. There is a big manual component where you shape and form the metal, which is not really creative but simply a matter of bending wire and soldering, but you also have to know where to bend and solder, and you might even have to come up with a design unless someone else did.

Re:brace yourself

[Opportunist]

I was a journalist. I wrote security articles for a local IT paper.

It's nice to inform people about their problems and how they can solve them. But it doesn't really take a genius to do it, even if the topic is actual information and not just some kind of opinion.

Re:brace yourself

[davide marney]

"I'm really the one who's 'work makes the company work' and it is really my work that the company is selling and turning into profit."

You couldn't be more wrong. Try doing your work without someone selling it for you. Try doing your work without someone in the back office making sure that the customers pay for the software sold by sales, so you can get a paycheck on time, like clockwork. Try doing your work without someone orchestrating, adjusting, and aligning your work with everyone else's, so the company actually delivers something the customer is willing to buy. Try doing your work without someone else looking over your work, checking and cross-checking for errors, so customers get delivered a good product that we know will work. Try doing all that without someone making sure you have a table to type on, a chair to sit in, and a functioning bathroom when you need it.

What you need, my friend, is to get out and start a startup company. There you will learn the value of teamwork, I guarantee it.

Re:brace yourself

[goose-incarnated]

Some might call it sad to think that screwing "lots" of girls is important. Sure, screwing is fun. It is pointless, but satisfying to an extent (because natural selection). Having lots of partners has always seemed to me kind of narcissistic and unnecessary. Saying that others have led a sad life just because they're not slutty is a bit much. What's wrong with him preferring to have a girlfriend rather than lots of random encounters?

You misunderstand me - what's sad is having the single-g/friend-only-plus-being-a-geek life and then trying to explain that guys who screw lots of girls are jealous of that.

I'd be equally sad if I said I was a virgin at age 19 and that other guys were jealous of that - it's just stupid.

Re:brace yourself

[RichardJenkins]

Everyone damn well should know the basics of how engines work, though.

Re:brace yourself

[somersault]

I didn't think that he was implying that his brother was jealous at all. I thought he was saying more that he considered him saying "I respect what you're doing" as a type of insult. It implied that nobody else respected the way he was living his life. Which may be true, because today's media and culture glorifies sex for the sake of sex. That's what he found "funny" - that this guy doing nothing but having sex was implying that people shouldn't have anything better to do. Maybe I read it wrongly.

Re:brace yourself

[Opportunist]

OK, maybe it's time to clarify something.

Personally, I have a lot of respect for everyone who can do his job right. Bricklayers are just the stereotypical "menial laborer" around here, so I chose that profession as the picture. And yes, a lot of people look down on bricklayers because, well duh, anyone can stack stones upon each other.

Few of those that claim so have tried, I betcha. I can actually do it (you'd be amazed what kind of jobs I did while getting my degree), but it's not as easy as it sounds. Still, I'm convinced that everyone can learn to do it given time and effort, but that sure does not diminish my respect for people who can do it with great precision and speed.

OTOH I had to learn that this is not the case with programming. This is something that for some odd reason NOT everyone can learn. I pondered for a while and eventually I found out why: There's no "rote" for it. Sure, some people do "rote-programming", repeating something they did before or simply copy/pasting code, but that's got nothing to do with programming. That's actually the WRONG way to do it, if there's something that has been done and that needs to be done again, a library for it should have existed in the first place and you should definitely create one if there is none.

Programming is nothing that you can learn as a repetitive skill. Bricklaying is. You can build a new house exactly the same way you built the last one and the last 100 ones. The essential basic formula does not change. You put stone upon stone, and whether you do it here, there, on another house or at another floor, it does not change.

No such luck with programming. Doing something a second time exactly as you did the first time is pointless. Just copy the program! You cannot learn "by heart" and regurgitate again and again, that doesn't accomplish anything. Code can easily be reproduced and multiplied, there is no sense in doing something the same way twice.

The main difference might eventually be that you needn't understand why you put stone upon stone to create a house, that there is a certain static to heed and that gravity plays a key role, of course you notice it when you ignore them for too long, but understanding them isn't really part of the job. Once you solved a problem, you can apply that knowledge to every other house you'll ever build.

With programming, you have to understand what you're doing. Of course you can apply try and error, which will probably lead to an inferior product, but it is also horribly inefficient since you can't take this experience over to the next problem, you will NEVER face that problem you just wasted hours on again (and if, you'll copy/paste the code, unless you're smart enough to put it in a lib). You won't ever have to solve this problem again. You can always only solve new problems which always require you to come up with new ideas to solve them.

Re:brace yourself

[Rising Ape]

Plumbers and mechanics generally work on things other people have designed. Repair/technician work needs far less thought and understanding than engineering & design does. You can learn how to do mechanic work in fairly little time - I went from not knowing anything about cars to being able to do all my maintenance and repairs (so far) in hardly any time at all. Can I do it as quickly and effectively as a professional mechanic? No. But I can do it, whereas I doubt anyone could learn to design and build a complicated piece of software in such a short time.

Re:brace yourself

[rastos1]

I never said that a company can function without having sales, marketing, accounting, management, ... . But I'm pretty sure they can't make business without me developing the product. They tried once or twice in past and either had to backtrack or I had to develop the product later anyway ;-) .

I don't despise teamwork. Quite the opposite. But my team is the team of IT peers (programmers/designers/admins/DBAs/team leader). You would have to stretch the definition of "my team" too much to include sales, accounting, janitors, ... That would be like including box office cashier in a baseball team. They are nice and important people but not *my team* members. Sorry. They all make the company tick. Sure. No objection to that. I just object to GP's evaluation of an IT person in the company and labeling me as an unimportant cogwheel.

Also the next level of "senior programmer" is not "company owner". I'm not good at it and it involves work that I'm not comfortable with. I have no desire to that.

Re:brace yourself

[kilodelta]

I sort of disagree - teach it to everyone. Most school systems rely heavily on MS Office skills. Which is all fine and good. But teach them a little VBA, it's not difficult. The biggest obstacle is the object model and once you get that you can write quick and dirty code to bend Office to your will.

In fact I had been doing program reviews in local schools and encountered just such a class - they were doing a payroll spreadsheet in Excel. But to get the tax info they had to use a crib sheet. I asked the teacher if they were ever going to discuss formulas in cells, or even use VBA for more advanced functionality.

The answer I got was : "That's computer programming and you need advanced math for that!"

On my written report I quoted and rebutted that saying you need perhaps the first semester of Algebra I and an understand of number systems outside of base 10. Base 2 and Base 16, and just for gigles, Base 8. That's it - that's all you need to know to program in VBA.

I'm told my report shook them up a bit. Good, they need to be shaken and stirred now and then.

Re:brace yourself

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

"The sameattitude extends to all STEM subject. The next step in the argument is — why teach physics, chemistry, biology, and math (as distinct from arithmetic) to anyone but exceptionally dumb weirdos.

"Now get back in your holes and invent nice stuff so the rest of us won't live as we deserve, left to our own devices: animals hunting and gathering and fighting.

Re:brace yourself

[bluefoxlucid]

I find that a grasp of Unix, awk, sed, bash scripting, and python goes a long way. People in Finance and HR complain about the tasks they do taking 3 days... and I look at them messing with data, spend 10 minutes writing an Awk script, run their data through it, and hand it back. This applies all over the place: my minor programming ability (I am not a programmer) enables me to bypass a lot of work.

Re:brace yourself

[TechNeilogy]

I'm a geek, I fit most of the "negative" stereotypes, and you know what: I kind of feel sorry for people who don't. Being a geek has rewards all its own that cool people will never know.

Re: brace yourself

[UnknownSoldier]

Agreed. The price of vanity is high.

Re:brace yourself

[bluefoxlucid]

I keep telling people that the effort to get people educated is fucking backwards, that government loans or government-funded degree college increases social inequality rather than decreasing it. But do they listen? Nooooo, they pull up that fucking Norway comic with the talking silhouette and go, "Look, he says that it makes the poor better off!" without any understanding of things like market forces or speculation.

Because the poor can really judge what's going to be an in-demand career in 4 years and can pick a career now that's going to get them a job then, instead of wind them out on the street with a worthless degree and no useful skills because there's 100,000 jobs and 1,000,000 fresh college grads that can do them. Hell why bother? If you're that good at speculation, just make a mint in the stock market and retire. We should tell these genius speculators to stop being poor!

Re:brace yourself

[leonardluen]

i really don't care if i "change the world", i am in it to rule the world and programming allows me to exert more direct physical control over the world than any other profession.
 

Re:brace yourself

[bluefoxlucid]

My polymath skillset includes playing Go, programming in Sed/Awk/Python/Bash/C, bicycle mechanic shit, and Project Management. Oh and I know like fucking everything about building floors.

I work with a tech guy who became a manager and thinks everyone else is stupid. This is how IT works. Have you ever talked to an accountant? Accountants are viciously retarded. Accountants are fucking stupid as hell. All they do is write a number here... and subtract it from here! Basic math. Now: Let's see you process an end-of-the-year income statement. No? ... Why not? ... wot, that's hard? Bean-counters do it all the time...

Oh. And I studied accounting.

Re:brace yourself

[slashmydots]

Dibs on #1. I'm gonna tear this limey piece of a shit a new ass so maybe he'll stop talking out his current one.

Re:brace yourself

[mrchaotica]

I don't claim that I'm a better then a bricklayer or a plumber. I'm not that elitist. I've also seen a number of bricklayers and plumbers that produce a shoddy work. And those that don't are comparatively expensive to me. That's why I fix my own faucet too. Without having any schooling on that. And it does not drip.

The main thing is that there's a difference between the plumber who fixes your faucet or unclogs your drain and the one who designs the wet wall in a skyscraper, just like there's a difference between the IT guy who fixes the printers and installs drivers and the computer scientist who designs new and interesting algorithms. Most of us -- in any field -- think of ourselves as the "skyscraper" or "interesting algorithm" guy, but think of everybody else as the "fix your faucet" or "install drivers" guy.

Re:brace yourself

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do we try to make software development a widely available skill?

Because we see the world as we are.

We can't imagine not knowing how to program, so we assume that programming must be a critical life skill. It's not, no more so than "drafting legal code," "performing an appendectomy," "building a skyscraper," or "learning the ins and outs of SOX compliance."

Programming is a deeply technical skill which requires many years of study and practice to master in any way - much like surgery, writing laws, building skyscrapers, and learning regulatory ins-and-outs require years of study & practice to master. The only difference is, the barrier to entry for programming is much lower than many of those other activities. But just because the barrier to entry is low doesn't mean it's immediately some "incredibly important skill to have."

Kids should be comfortable with computers, know how to use them, and have some basic literacy for terms and concepts. That's all they "NEED" to know - Driver's Ed for computers is more than adequate for general curriculum. The kids who are INTERESTED in architecture, law, medicine, software engineering, accounting, and other "highly skilled" careers should have the opportunity to take some foundational coursework in the fields they're interested in, but forcing everybody to program really is pointless, and the argument that "everybody can and should learn to program" simply devalues the work we all do in the public's mind - "if any bozo can learn how to do it with a course or two why would anybody want to make a career out of it? It's going to end up being a fucking minimum wage job!"

Re:brace yourself

[Cid Highwind]

It's really not, at least not unless you're going to expand the definition of "coding" to silly lengths that would include trivial stuff like Excel formulas. Those are mainstream job skills, proper coding is a niche skill.

Or to turn it around, if one absolutely must (FULL STOP!) know how to code to operate a computer, then operating a computer is self-evidently not a skill that everyone needs, as can be seen by the number of functioning adults who can't code "hello world" in python.

Re:brace yourself

[Anonymous Coward]

If you don't know how to code, you really don't know how to operate a computer. Full stop.

Good thing you put that full stop in there - we wouldn't know where the bullshit ends otherwise.

Basic computer literacy =/= Learning to program. Stop trying to make the two equivalent, they're not, and they never will be.

You don't need to know how to build a car to drive a car. You don't know how to build a washing machine to use one. You don't have to know how to build an airplane to fly in one. And you don't need to know how to write an operating system to use one.

Re:brace yourself

[akinliat]

No doubt. Thing is, everybody does not need to be taught coding, but they really should be at least shown how to use a computer. In the same manner that everybody does not need a mandatory engine building class, though driver's education would be nice along with the basics on how to maintain an automobile.

It's funny that both you and the TFA mention car repair, because that's the analogy I've always used most with regards to computers and coding. I suppose I've always thought "If you're going to use it, you should at least have some idea how to fix it."

I'm not saying that you should be fixing it, just that you should know how major repairs are done. With cars, this means a working knowledge of the major systems and the likely repairs/replacements. With computers, it really does include coding, at least at some basic level, because code is the only way you really get to look behind the curtain, and it helps eveything else make sense.

Re:brace yourself

[joe_frisch]

I think that one reason that IT fields don't get enough respect is that we lump a very wide range of jobs together. People with minimal training who are doing dull repetitive coding call themselves "computer scientists", or "software engineers". There is nothing to distinguish them in the public mind from the truly exceptional people who are creating real innovations. To people outside of the field they all look the same - they sit in front of a computer typing obscure instructions.

In an attempt at egalitarianism we may have degraded the whole field. In other fields an "engineer" is someone who has a 2 year graduate degree beyond a BS, and then spent several years as a "junior" engineer. A "scientist" has typically 5-10 years of graduate study, and usually a couple years post doctoral work. There are real "computer scientists", and "software engineers" who have a great deal of training and skill, and are capable of doing original work. If we aren't careful about titles though, they are lumped in with a bunch of minimally skilled workers.

To answer the inevitable comment that education isn't important for this - is should be. Would you want to fly in an airplane designed by someone without an engineering degree?

Re:brace yourself

[RailRide]

But please explain to me the incredible amount of high level management dunces that would not have survived the promotion past middle management if the Peter Principle had been applied to them.

That would fall under the Dilbert Principle

---PCJ

Re:brace yourself

[realityimpaired]

I find that a grasp of Unix, awk, sed, bash scripting, and python goes a long way. People in Finance and HR complain about the tasks they do taking 3 days... and I look at them messing with data, spend 10 minutes writing an Awk script, run their data through it, and hand it back. This applies all over the place: my minor programming ability (I am not a programmer) enables me to bypass a lot of work.

You really shouldn't have needed to do that... Yes, awk was the tool you chose to use to manipulate the data, but whichever tool the finance/HR people were using should have had the necessary functions as well. That's not a question of them needing to learn programming, that's a question of them not having bothered to learn the tools they're using for their job.

You do *not* need to learn how to code to use computers. Yes, I have the advantage in that I was exposed to computers/programming when I was 4 years old, but my older brother couldn't be bothered with any of that crap, and he's perfectly capable of using computers to complete his job as well. The amount of coding I do on a day to day basis is nearly zero.

Re:brace yourself

[TangoMargarine]

But be sure that mostly they do not "want it to work when you present it to them" and they do not want me to "do my work right". They want it to "sort of work". Yesterday. Under the budget. They don't care how well the code is structured because they can't "sell" that to a customer and they don't get to maintain it 10 years down the road. You don't get to put that in a marketing presentation.

I think that pretty accurately sums it up. It's kind of a problem nobody has come up with a real solution to yet, eh? I mean, yeah, Agile, but that has its detractors, too.

Re:brace yourself

[Grishnakh]

And that's simply what it boils down to: Techs are really bad at self marketing. We still mostly rely on getting the job done and getting it done well and hoping that people will notice. Bullshit, people don't care. People only listen to the loudmouth who keeps tooting his own horn.

It's like something I keep telling my wife over and over when she complains about workplace gossip:
People believe what they're told.

It doesn't matter what you tell people; if you tell them that the Grim Reaper himself chased you while you were at some park, they'll believe you just as long as they personally know you. They won't ask questions challenging the veracity of your story, they'll just accept that whatever you claim is real. Likewise, if they run around telling people that you're "hostile" towards them, even if you have no interaction with them at all, they'll believe this and rally to that person's side against you. People believe what they're told. And so it goes with management goons: they tell everyone how important they are, and people believe them.

Re:brace yourself

[kheldan]

"Angry comments"? I've got your angry comment right here: That asshat's entire riff on the subject of programming belongs on 4chan/b/. Does he have any clue that the Internet, his blog, his phone, and so many other things around him that he relies on on a daily basis are the results of the labors of these "exceptionally dumb weirdos" he's so blithely insulting? What a jackass.

Re:brace yourself

[next_ghost]

Coding sucks today because our programming languages and our compilers require more machine understanding than problem solving ability.

And eventually that will change.

But today, the mastering the tools and intricacies is FAR MORE IMPORTANT than actually being able to describe the problem.

And like I said, eventually intuitive problem solving applications will emerge and trump programming languages.

I shouldn't have to know the scope of a variable, whether I want to allocate some memory, how many bytes and whether or not I want it static to solve a problem. But today, our computers aren't actually really that fast either. They just seem fast compared to the snail speed ones of the past. But someday ....

So... you basically want to perfectly speak a foreign language without bothering to learn its grammar and vocabulary. Because that's what programming languages ARE: man-made foreign languages focused on expressing ideas with extreme precision.

Every single brilliant attempt to free programmers from restraints of resource management and abstract programming language constructs ended up as complete and utter failure where doing anything more complicated than adding a few numbers together gives you massive headache. And believe me I've seen lots of such attempts.

Re:brace yourself

[mcgrew]

He said he was old. The world we grew up in is not the same world you grew up in. Our world had no calculators, internet, or cell phones. Our world had three TV channels.

When we were young, being a nerd was the social kiss of death. Egghead, four-eyes (yes, back then few wore glasses; too much reading causes myopia as studies have shown), geek, nerd, all were insults yet true, like calling a homosexual "queer". We are, of course, even more queer than homosexuals because queer means "odd".

If you were seen with a book that wasn't assigned by a teacher you were looked down on. There used to be a big hate at the literate. It was a different world.

Re:brace yourself

[mcgrew]

They hadn't yet invented the jock-geek subspecies I saw come a long much later, and the rocker-geek subspecies was a cultural impossibility at the time.

The "rocker-geek subspecies" was ten years earlier. In the seventies, all one had to do was grow one's hair to be accepted, especially among musicians. We electronic hobbyists were especially welcomed, because we could fix the musicians' broken amplifiers and hook up stereo systems for friends.

In the lats '60s I was turning broken transistor radios into guitar fuzzboxes with about two dollars worth of parts and five minutes time and selling them for fifty, because the music stores wanted $300 for them.

As far as "jock geeks" that's an oxymoron. That's like saying "rich ghetto dweller". Jocks aren't geeks (except for that basketball player with a pHd).

Re:brace yourself

[DiscountBorg(TM)]

I'm not entirely sure the human equation has changed even if the tech has. I've met my fair share of quiet, introverted thinkers over the years and quite frankly this is a human nature thing. Some people are more outgoing than others, some are social butterflies who are busy networking, some like to stay at home and tinker. Some function well in groups, some do not. It's got nothing to do with smarts. People just think differently. It's a shame the thread has to turn smarts into an accusatory contest. Also, that the person you're responding to reacted in such an irate way seems to indicate to me that a nerve was poked: there is still a negative stigma attached to being a nerd that the person wants to overcome. That at least clearly has not changed.

And of course I do agree that the technology situation has changed, computers are ubiquitous now whereas in the 80's my ability to use a computer set me apart from my peers.

Re:brace yourself

[jedidiah]

If you understand coding at the most abstract level, then you understand how a computer works. You don't need to be able to "paint the Mona Lisa" or "build an engine", but you should at least have some grasp of how a key piece of technology works.

More than anything, it will give you some understanding of what a computer is not. That's as generally socially useful as any other "purely academic" subject we force students to learn about.

Re:brace yourself

[david_thornley]

I agree that the two sides tend to denigrate each other's skills. However, one side deals with facts, and knows how hard it is. The other side deals with people, and would have a lot easier time if they actually understood how other people think.

Re:brace yourself

[jedidiah]

The likely problem with the tools available to the finance department is the modern notion of ease of use. It's reduced to the ease of a total idiot to do something simple for the first time. This usually doesn't work well for the an experienced user working with a large data set or a task they do frequently.

"Ease of use" versus "automation".

Also, the relevant Unix tools have probably persisted while generations of other shinier and happier tools have come and gone.

Re:brace yourself

[david_thornley]

People believe what they're told.

I found that fact amazingly useful when I was with M.I.5.

Re:brace yourself

[hjf]

You can also find "coders" by the dozen...

Re:brace yourself

[jedidiah]

> These are all skilled professions that require a lot of training and experience.

Mostly, it requires practice. It's something that you can get competent at by merely repeating a physical process that doesn't require much thought (if any).

That's why a skilled trade is nothing like a profession.

Anyone that conflates programmers with bricklayers clearly hasn't done both of them.

Re:brace yourself

[luxifr]

You again make an assumption, that social ability and intelligence are somehow mutually exclusive.

If you read carefully you will find that you're reading this into it. I merely dissented from the parents claim that being smart has the intrinsic property of getting along just fine with no probability of a "crummy adolescence".

Ah, the mark of the intelligent, social underachiever you so gleefully project on to everyone else, the pointless, baseless personal attack.

Yeah, right. Again: Social overachievers wouldn't be such bullies, would they? Uh, yeah, wait a minute: THEY ARE... more often than not even physical ones. Of course they wouldn't be baseless so, right? Right! Because for some of them this is the way to become popular in the first place. Of course THAT is all just games and play. You may not be an idiot but you sure are an ignorant, smug hypocrite. Oh, and a coward one.

Re:brace yourself

[geekoid]

Not a myth. I see very smart kids get bullied pretty regularly simply becasue they are interested in things above the heads of most the people in their class.

Re:brace yourself

[geekoid]

".. taught maths "
math teaches thinking skills, and the ability to break down complex things. So, yes, everyone needs to learn math.
"everybody does not need to be taught physics"
physics teaches critical thinking as well as practical applications. I've used physics in a non intuitive way to save someones life.

"everybody does not need to be taught art"
teaches a way to discuss subjective material in a rational way.

teaching kids to code teaches logic, engineering, and it helps remove 'magic box' syndrome. The younger they are, the more intuitive using a computer as a tool instead of an application running device.

"python code"
oh, I thought we were talking about real code. I kid. I kid.

Re:brace yourself

[geekoid]

Do we want people who see computers as a application running machine, or as a tool with multiple purposes?

That wasn't turning it around. they was making up a really bad example that doesn't apply.

Re:brace yourself

[fisted]

It seems to me that the new generation has plenty of socially awkward programmers and a good number of confident people programming.

I rather feel we're running low on young programmers.
We have proprietary and closed, ``granny-safe'' platforms left and right, they encourage usage and thinking of it as a magical box, not development and thinking of it as a user-programmable machine.

Want to spawn a generation of programmers? Teach unix in school, instead of how to click your way through MS-Word.

Re:brace yourself

[triffid_98]

Idea guys are great, but they're like the 1% inspiration. Too many of them around, and you have the "too many chiefs, not enough indians" problem rather quickly.

Is that really a problem anymore? The idea guys outsourced our development projects to India years ago.

Re:brace yourself

[bluefoxlucid]

Often times people will get handed a pile of "data" like HTML pages, converted PDF or Word documents, or whatnot. This happens a lot, for example from acquisitions or contracts or whatnot. Verizon hands us shit that does not go into an accounting system regularly, and would be so much nicer if it was in some sort of CSV format.

You WILL encounter situations where people hand you garbage. You WILL encounter situations where a service provider routinely hands you garbage that none of your tools can interpret. It happens all the time.

Re:brace yourself

[Catbeller]

It's a valid, universal observation that geeks tend not to be those dating the girls that don't date geeks. Truth is okay.

There are a few of you geeks who aren't like that - bless you for choosing attractive parents; but stereotypes exist for a reason. Those who are introverted, and/or unattractive, and find fulfillment behind keyboards, aren't extroverts. They are not the same kind of people, tho of course they exist on a spectrum. Introverts = not dating as much, Extrovert = dating more than that.

Thanks be to Aphrodite that women have entered the geekly professions - or have those who have not have gained respect for men in them - or we geek males could have died out by 2050. Female geeks? Whole different story - they rule both worlds.

Re:brace yourself

[triffid_98]

What makes you think building computers is more challenging than wrenching on cars? I'd say it's quite the opposite.

I can say that, because I do both, although my tolerance for "Space Jesus" Dr. Who has pretty much given out.

Re:brace yourself

[Reapy]

I think this may be a factor of the huge increase of computer / phone users in general, followed by all the unappreciated power high level api's give them now a days, it is easy to be visible and vocal about tech without knowing anything about it.

Re:brace yourself

[znrt]

people are eager to stay up here instead of being shifted back down to programming

they don't do programming in your team? what is it that you're actually managing?

anyway, you did a good sum up of what a good manager is up to. if that's you're case, then congratulations.

and getting back to the issue: you're a rarity. i know a few like you. in contrast, i know of a great deal of lousy coders, but i know a great deal of excellent ones too. my point here is that given that good management so exceptional i assume it has a lot to do with very personal aptitudes and character, and thus all "technical" and "professional" considerations about management (from methodolgies to best practices passing through a bunch of mere stereotypes and buzztalk) is irrelevant. as i find most of the "business" approach to building things, not by coincidence. after almost 30 years in business, how someone can still buy into this "we gonna make supah exciting things together" corporate bs is beyond me. and seeing young people being convinced that management is some sort of "more stellar" ocupation that laying bricks just makes me feel sad about society. but, mind you, i'm just an old coder.

Re:brace yourself

[phorm]

Because that's what they see in us: The computerized equivalent of plumbers and bricklayers

What's wrong with that? If employers respected us the way they would a plumber who says "That's a really bad idea, you don't want to do that..." that might not be a bad thing.

Re:brace yourself

[NickGnome]

"When I change the world in concrete measurable ways, the feeling is euphoric"
...

Definitely. When I worked on CAD/CAM/CAE software -- investing both the 1% creativity and that 99% perspiration in 30-hour work sessions -- and then I'd see a family car or sleek-looking sports car, or a power-tool, crane, warhead (and they tore down the wall!), back-hoe, cherry-picker, telephone, skin for a sky-scraper, diesel engine, parts for a ship defense system, toy, or disk drive... designed using our apps, it was a huge kick, especially when some customer's engineer had consulted with you.

Different people see different things as being dull and different things as being interesting or exciting. My chemistry friends don't enjoy the same things as my CS friends, and they don't enjoy the same things as my engineering friends, gardening friends, politics friends, wood-working friends, brick-mason friends, genealogy friends, carpentry friends, car restoring friends, video-gaming friends, camping/hiking friends, medical friends, economics friends, older people, the academics vs. government vs. real world...

For that matter, people in one niche of computer wrangling are quite different from those in other niches. Some relatives whose work is in different areas can barely talk shop. (There are data processing people, data-base people, ERP, networking, content management, statisticians, SCADA, sys admins, contract oversight people...)

But B-school bozos hardly ever seem to have much of a clue -- they get all worked up over some tiny spark you casually throw off, and don't appreciate great break-throughs. They also have no idea what a software developer can do in the blink of an eye while you're working on 3 other things, and what will require an extensive amount of research accompanied by a long series of experiments, consultations...

Re:brace yourself

[mcgrew]

I'm sure your teachers too did some kind of "How dumb can a computer be?" exercise where you tried instructing the teacher to put jam on a piece of bread and he tried acting as dumb as possible making you Lay. Out. Each. Step. Exactly.

The problem is everyone thinking that AI is actually intelligent. The only intelligence in a computer is its engineers' and programmers' intelligence; people called the early tube computers that had less computing power than a hallmark card an "electronic brain."

Stop confusing laymen with terms like "electronic brain" and "artificial intelligence" and stupid memes like "we'll upload our brains to computers in 20 years" because we won't. Computers don't work like that; as you said, it's just logic gates, if a=b then [perform task].

Re:brace yourself

[TrollstonButterbeans]

Awesome! So you think a mathematician or physicist or biologist needs to learn programming too (!!!!) to be able to maximally participate in research!

Wonderful idea ... but guess what ... machines are here to serve man and make things easier! Hardcore researchers should have intuitive and easy to use tools to help with their research. They do have those in Star Trek. If you can't match Star Trek considering all the gizmos we have that Star Trek TOS couldn't imagine --- hand in your "nerd goggles" --- you are disqualified and Wesley Crusher would own you!

Re:brace yourself

[kermidge]

[chuckle] Yeah, could be. But if the guy does say, "yeah, ok" then there's a chance he's interested and not just a conversational "yeah, yeah, already." I figure it's worth a shot.

Re:brace yourself

[rastos1]

Ah. Of course in can replaced. I did not mean to say that the company and world revolves around me. That would be a misunderstanding. What I mean is that the company cannot stay in business if there is nobody making the product that the company wants to sell. Surely company can keep going without me. But the company cannot survive without any IT people whatsoever. Not for a long time anyway ( though SCO is trying to provide a counterexample).

Re-reading the thread it seems that it took the wrong corner somewhere. I'm not talking about my personal importance for my employer. I'm talking about importance of people that understand how the IT works - especially in a company that develops and sells software. Such people are "special" because people that can and do think are "better" then people that do not. People that understand how the product (being sold) works are "better" then people that don't. People that can and do learn for life-time are "better" then those that get by with knowledge gained on a week-long training.

Now of course the word "better" can have different meanings. If the task is "fix the dripping faucet in the kitchen" then yes, a coder is useless. An engineer having an idea how the faucet is constructed is slightly better and a plumber that did it 1000 times is much better. On that task. But IT became so entrenched in our lives, that IT skills are important in many tasks. Including the tasks such as filling the taxes, accounting, marketing, sales, etc. etc. And the IT skills include learning, thinking and understanding complex processes which is useful also outside of IT.

If I still did not get my point across, then it probably means that I suck at self-advertising too ;-)

Re:brace yourself

[FireFury03]

"python code"
oh, I thought we were talking about real code. I kid. I kid.

As I said, most people don't need vastly in depth coding abilities, but some basic stuff is often helpful. The example I gave was a trivial bit of code (and yes, I used python - did I mention it was *trivial*?) which saved a lot of time, yet the person doing the job didn't know how to write that code because they had zero experience of writing code. Teach people at school how to code and the majority aren't going to be able to write a new operating system or a new word processor, nor do they need to - what they are going to be able to do is write trivial bits of code to make their every day jobs easier, and that is why we should be teaching this stuff.

Re:brace yourself

[Cid Highwind]

My example isn't "bad" just because you don't like the conclusion.

Define what "coding" means to you. There are two possible categories that definition can fall into: One so over-broad that it's meaningless but that includes nearly everyone, and one that fits what other people mean when they say "coding" but excludes a vast majority of reasonably happy competent people who hold jobs where 90% of their work day is spent using a computer.

Re:brace yourself

[tingentleman]

These things are NOT mutually exclusive. I'm a full time developer and still run the tech companies I set-up. But I also spent 5 years in my 20s being a rock-star, touring, releasing albums, doing TV, getting in the charts. It was fun, yes - but I ALSO love coding. Please don't force stereotypes on anybody.

Re:brace yourself

[cavebison]

> Because that's what they see in us: The computerized equivalent of plumbers and bricklayers.

That's ridiculous - a plumbing mistake doesn't lose a company millions of dollars or potentially kill people. If you come across an attitude like that, it's because you're working for an idiot. Devaluing developers is self-sabotage for a company, as sure as devaluing any other important employee category like legal or even marketing. Good managers know this.

The problem is with devs ourselves - unlike doctors and lawyers - yes even marketers - who are well aware they provide valuable skills to a company, we generally don't have the image and self-confidence to command respect. We have an IMAGE PROBLEM, that's all. Luckily we're not distrusted, like politicians and lawyers, but we're not taken seriously either.

Re:brace yourself

[MooseMiester]

You are exactly right, and the same argument applies to the War on Poverty and the War on Drugs.

Since the days of LBJ we've spent untold trillions and trillions of dollars "eradicating poverty" and surprise the poverty rate hasn't improved one bit. What we have done is make being poor more comfortable, reducing the number of poor folks who really want to succeed.

And yet your mode liberal howls and wails that my statement proves I want poor people to starve and die, and the REAL solution is to shovel ever increasing buckets of money at the problem. After 50 years of hard evidence - THIS DOES NOT WORK.

So we need to force everyone to get a college degree. No, we don't. And if we do, we'll end up dumbing down everybody else, because we'll be forced to teach college to the lowest common denominator - something that is already happening! What's being taught at the college level TODAY was being taught at the High School level when I was in High School in the 1970's -- all because the government created a system were student test scores were used to dole out funding. No Child Left Behind means Every Child an equal idiot.

When, I wonder, will the social engineering types learn to think rationally and figure this out... I'll be long gone before that happens.

Re:brace yourself

[bluefoxlucid]

I didn't really expect anyone to agree, since it takes pages and pages of justification and a fair grasp on economics to get it. Also most people can't distinguish between "lazie-faire capitalism" and "let's make it uncomfortable to engage in poor behavior," which is why our actions are between "do nothing" and "actively force a socialist ideal".

Re:brace yourself

[MooseMiester]

There are a few people on SlashDot that are over the age of 30, have control of their emotions, and are not easily influenced by propaganda.

I get so tired of hearing "THE NARRATIVE" parroted over and over by people who refuse to compare what has actually happened as result of the ideas within certain parts of with "THE NARRATIVE" being implemented. Then again, I live near Detroit, it's easy to see this first hand.

And when you try to discuss things with them in a calm, rational way, you get "Demonize your opponent" and it quickly becomes hopeless.

Kudo's to you Sir, keep it up!

Re:brace yourself

[volmtech]

I was, it was sad, and no one was jealous of me. I had to put an engagement ring on my first girlfriends finger before we had sex. Before then I had no luck with girls, even my date for senior prom flung open the car door and bolted into her house as soon as I pulled back into her parents driveway. I muddled through a first marriage but my second wife and I will calibrate our 28th anniversary in two weeks. She's an artist and can barely work the TV remote. She needs me :)

Re:brace yourself

[Tyler Durden]

Hmmm, "social underachiever". I kind of like the sound of that. "Why no, I don't suck at social situations. I'd be great at it if I tried really hard. I'm just what you'd call a 'social underachiever.' Yeah, that's the ticket!'"

I should start using that. :)

Re:brace yourself

[WaywardGeek]

I completely agree. I didn't want to say anything like "I got the last laugh" in my story. I love my brother like a brother, so there's no laughing. However, I working in a job I thoroughly enjoy where I make very decent money, and my family is wonderful. I wish things had worked out as well for my awesome little brother, but everyone is who they are in the end. I'm a big geek, and better off for it.

Re:brace yourself

[Joining Yet Again]

To be a geek with "time for girls" is to be a pacifist with "time for war".

Re:brace yourself

[Joining Yet Again]

So you play in a band, you tinker with programming, and you've done a few routine jobs.

Gotta say, you are good at bigging up the average.

Re:brace yourself

[TechNeilogy]

It's not strictly a question of "easy." I consider the inside of a car engine a realm of dark, arcane mystery that I will never penetrate. However, cars are not "geeky" (at least the way most people approach them). To be a real geek you have to yearn after the abstract over the concrete -- logic that can run without hardware, etc., even if what results is some really cool hardware. A mechanic, on the other hand -- and I do *not* use the term "mechanic" perjoratively -- is enamored of the concrete, the feel of metal on metal. And that's the "geek" difference -- abstract more than concrete -- rather than difficulty.

Re:brace yourself

[Opportunist]

If you didn't know that before you turned to the spooks, I can't imagine that you enjoyed your stay there...

Re:brace yourself

[Opportunist]

The simple reason is that I didn't come out of some BA bullshit course and get now tossed into the game with a couple people "under" me, I come from right the other end, I WAS one of those people "under" me for a long time, in a different company, before I switched jobs.

My team here is responsible for IT security, internal and external, as well as incident management and avoidance, and a few select areas of risk management (we ain't that big a company, a lot of jobs usually held by dedicated personnel are shared amongst others). So yes, programming is part of the job description, but it is only a very small subset of it, and mostly limited to quickly throwing together tools that you need. Mostly it takes a very special kind of person to do it right, with a lot of talents, and the ability and willingness to work strange hours.

The simple way to do it right is to realize that you're not important as the manager. The people working in your team are. Of course, on the organization diagram they're working for you, you're setting the goals and milestones and they're reaching them, but in fact, you're working for them. You have the "power" to give them what they need and cannot get by themselves. They cannot tell HR that they need more people, but you can. They cannot tell finance that they need more money, but you can. They cannot grab and shake the idiot from Hardware-resources that gave away the server they needed to some markedroid who just happens to be some kind of idiot nephew of someone I don't care about, but I can! And while there are times when I really envy them (because they can actually do, ya know, WORK instead of sitting around and having to bicker with managers that act more like little spoiled brats who want a bigger office 'cause the other one got a bigger car when you just want some tools to make money for the company that cost a fraction of the spoiled brats' toys), my job is to enable them to do theirs.

Nobody needs a manager to stand there and look important or give pep talks. If you want to "pep" your techs, make sure to order pizza at least once a week and let the energy drinks never run dry. Yeah, I know it's a stereotype, but it actually works, at least as long as you manage to convey the message that it's out of appreciation and not as some patronizing pat on the shoulder.

Actually meaning it definitely helps getting that message across, btw.

Don't feed the trolls

[Anonymous Coward]

C'mon slashdot, aren't you better than this?

Re:Don't feed the trolls

[zwarte piet]

You must be new here.

The same for you

[Anonymous Coward]

I imagine writing news editorials all day is only for exceptionally dull weirdo's as well. At least when my work is done there is something useful to come out of it.

Re:The same for you

[Anonymous Coward]

Why does "weirdos" take an apostrophe for the plural, but not "editorials"? Or heaven forbid "news"?

Re:The same for you

[antdude]

We're all weirdos. We're /. weirdos too!

Hey!

[JThaddeus]

I resemble that!

Re:Hey!

[QuasiEvil]

Woohoo! I've always wanted somebody to notice my exceptional dullness and weirdness, and finally someone has. Now I'm somebody again!

Re:Hey!

[RileyBryan]

My job is dull, and it makes me weird. I feel as though having even the most basic understanding of logic seems to make me completely alienated from the 90% of the world who consists of idiots who write worthless turds of "journalism", or other non-producing careers. Enjoy your meaningless, pathetic, existence, you piece of useless crap journalists. I hope some slashdotter automates your job, tomorrow.

Re:Hey!

[Nephandus]

"If you want to imagine the future imagine" the worse parts of Idiocracy and the Borg. We provide the technology. They'll provide the teaming masses of idiots to drown us all out, either by silencing/shunning or by making sure we play along, while we service them.

Don't kid yourself. We're not inheriting anything. The politicos already won. They're prepared to harass, assault, and kill, and they can get away with it. We just give them better tools.

Dull Weirdo Here

[watice]

I would venture to say newspapers like the Telegraph are for exceptionally dull weirdos. Everyone else uses twitter & the web.

Re:Dull Weirdo Here

[Austrian Anarchy]

I would venture to say newspapers like the Telegraph are for exceptionally dull weirdos. Everyone else uses twitter & the web.

But they are on the web. That is why they posted such a silly story.

Re:Dull Weirdo Here

[Anonymous Coward]

I would venture to say newspapers like the Telegraph are for exceptionally dull weirdos. Everyone else uses twitter & the web.

A dull weirdo is someone who sees science, math and computing and isn't in awe of it, hungry to know more. I pity anyone who lives their life without any curiosity about the world around them. It makes the world a very small place when all you care about is writing crap articles in a blog and how many scheckles you've accumulated.

Re:Dull Weirdo Here

[Opportunist]

Well, you can be curious about learning, about information, about knowledge...

Or you can read the Telegraph, of course.

Re: Dull Weirdo Here

[SpaceCracker]

I would venture to say newspapers like the Telegraph are for exceptionally dull weirdos. Everyone else uses twitter & the web.
"Exceptionally dull weirdos" use /. where stuff matters.
Telegraph and such are old news stuck in the 20th century.

Re: Dull Weirdo Here

[SpaceCracker]

//hey, posting from mobile (firefox on samsung s3 android) removed the 'qoute' tags I put around the qoute.

Re:Dull Weirdo Here

[AmiMoJo]

The most disturbing part is that people actually pay money just to be trolled by this guy.

Re:Dull Weirdo Here

[Opportunist]

I'd have a comeback, but I have to ask first: Is Fox News only available on cable or free on the airwaves as well?

Re:Dull Weirdo Here

[Rising Ape]

Any average, ordinary person would be put to sleep if you started describing what you do for a living. If a programmer has even an once of social skills, they learn to not talk about their job with the average Joe.

That's true of most jobs. How many people want to hear about the details of accountancy, plumbing, corporate law or secretarial work, for example?

Re:Dull Weirdo Here

[T.E.D.]

I would venture to say newspapers like the Telegraph are for exceptionally dull weirdos. Everyone else uses twitter & the web.

I disagree, Telegraph readers aren't nearly interesting enough to qualify as "weirdos".

I know how to...

[MouseTheLuckyDog]

Change gthe oil in my car, add radiator fluid, fix a tire. I also know how to unclog a drain.

So if coding is so routine, then everyone should know how to do.

PS: A lot of effort has been made to allow the masses to code. COBOL, VB/VBA come to mind. If it is so mechanical why the effort?

Re:I know how to...

[girlintraining]

So if coding is so routine, then everyone should know how to do.

I love how this asshole is saying code has no practical value, and yet the only reason said asshole has a job is because someone coded the OS, web server, browser, the routers and switches, and the website itself that he's posting from to claim this.

The thing about society is that every job is important. We need janitors as much as we need CEOs. We need specialist labor as much as general. I mean, we entered a new age in human history -- the Information Age, because most of us are now specialists of one kind or another. This dinosaur is still living in the Industrial Age where you only needed a few schmoot people, and the rest you could (sometimes literally) just feed into the machines.

Re:I know how to...

[aliquis]

Also if coding is unimportant the stock market really got it all very wrong.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=AAPL
http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=MSFT
http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=GOOG ..
http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=ORCL ..
http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=NTDOY
http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=EA

Maybe he think so but the coding isn't all that irrelevant to those companies

Re:I know how to...

[iamgnat]

Change gthe oil in my car, add radiator fluid, fix a tire. I also know how to unclog a drain.

There was a day when those things were difficult and specialized but the tools have been made easier to use and more common over time. The same will happen with programming (and has been happening since the first program was written).

So if coding is so routine, then everyone should know how to do.

PS: A lot of effort has been made to allow the masses to code. COBOL, VB/VBA come to mind. If it is so mechanical why the effort?

There is a difference between framing a wall in an otherwise finished house and framing the house itself. There is a difference between changing your oil and rebuilding your engine. Just because some tasks in a job really are (or should be) simple enough that anyone with a clue and the inclination can do it doesn't mean that there isn't still room for the specialists and more experienced non-specialists to do the heavy lifting.

That doesn't mean that everyone can or should code, but that doesn't mean people should fear writing a little bit of it when they find a need just like they shouldn't fear patching a hole in their drywall.

The only reason the equivalent of changing your oil isn't routine in coding is that people believe it's some mystical thing that they can't do. When it's really simple for them to "paint the walls" without having to "build the whole house" they'll do it (even if the rest of us professionals have an aneurysm over the drips and splatters). They just need the simple tools and understanding which starts with education.

Re:I know how to...

[tommeke100]

> We need janitors as much as we need CEOs
I don't agree. We need janitors way more.

Re:I know how to...

[dragon-file]

> We need janitors as much as we need CEOs I don't agree. We need janitors way more.

If only I had mod points for your statement sir. +1 TooTrue

Re:I know how to...

[serviscope_minor]

I love how this asshole is saying code has no practical value, and yet the only reason said asshole has a job is because someone coded the OS, web server, browser, the routers and switches, and the website itself that he's posting from to claim this.

It's worse than that, he also says:

subject is to be taught to everyone, it needs to have a vital application in everyday life

I for one would not want to live in that world. In his world:

We should teach exactly enough English to allow th filling of forms required to receive government services. Nothing more. No reading for pleasure, since that's not vital.

Enough maths to add up a grocery bill. Nothing more interesting than that since it's ont vital (not even needed for taxes in the UK since that's mostly done automatically). Certainly nothing interesting like patterns, puzzles and so on.

No art. Not all jobs are art, ergo it's not vital.

Sports. People don't need to exercise. Sure they can actually be fun (not at school...) and makes you live longer, but not vital. Most people without ecercise will survive to about retirement age.

Science. The study of the natural world is not vital since it's possible to live without having any basic understanding of the world. Ignore doing it for the interest since being interested is not vital.

Making things. Not vital, since not everyone will hae a job doing that. Never mind if it is fun. Fun is not required.

Music. The rock and roll is for weiro long haired people. Definitely not music.

Geography. Leaving the mother/fatherland is not vital. We don't need to know about the funny places those immigrants come from. Besides, I only know enough English to read the Daily Mail so I know immingrants are bad. Definitely no geography.

History. Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it. Nevertheless it's not 100% vital that you don't repeat it, so we can cut that too.

Foreign languages. See geography.

Classics. See some combination of foreign languages art, music, gorgraphy and history.

Cooking. Limited to eating microwave meals. Nothing else is vital.

Civics. Well, clearly people survive just fine knowing bugger all about that.

Etc.

The world he proposes is exceptionally dull. I, for one, do not want to be a part of his world.

Re:I know how to...

[zwarte piet]

Yes, every job is important. I think he means that knowledge about coding is something the MAJORITY of children will have little use for later in life, so he'd rather have children learn about something more universally useful at school. The ones that really want it will learn it anyway. Teaching coding to teachers might be problematic also. (although I feel that every teacher should be comfortable with boolean logic instead of sending the wise asses to the principal)

Troll feeding time, I guess.

[bmo]

The article is reactionary and designed to get people annoyed and posting comments

So it's flamebait and clickbait? So why post it here? There are plenty of dolts like him and we don't have to respond to them all. Don't feed the troll.

--
BMO

Re:Troll feeding time, I guess.

[drhank1980]

But this is Slashdot, NOBODY is going to actually RTFA.

Re:Troll feeding time, I guess.

[arkhan_jg]

Because it's a major article (it was near the top of the list of most-read articles on the telegraph site when I saw it yesterday) in a major serious newspaper read an awful lot by the right-wing management class in the UK. Ironically, it's also the paper read by many members of the (governing in coalition) Tory party, who are the ones who had the plan to revamp IT teaching to be more than 'this is how Microsoft Office works'.

It might be a troll article, but it IS how a lot of people think. So if you want insight into how British management think of coders, and IT guys in general, then there you are. We're a bunch of dull, weirdo tradesmen with a fungible skill. And that's why IT is being shat on from a great height in many companies, because we don't have some loudmouth 'ideas' guy, aka a suitable MBA type in their view, making us do useful stuff instead of muttering in a corner.

So if you're in IT, and you have a clueless dept head (some are good, some are crap, management has both types), then you need to basically become your own promoter and 'ideas' guy, in order to liaise with management and shape what they want (assuming they know what they want to achieve, which is not always the case) into something realistic and actually achievable, while making them think it was their idea.

Re:Troll feeding time, I guess.

[gweihir]

Oops, I did it wrong! Sorry....

And OP-ED journalism

[noobermin]

...should be left to self-absorbed narcissists?

In any case, RTFA, I think I'd need to see the policy he is critizing to judge it, but it does sound a bit ambitious especially for the age group he claims it's for.

Nonetheless, he's a ignorant ingrate.

Re:And OP-ED journalism

[Anonymous Coward]

it's just lip service for the illiterate subscribers to whom the telegraph is being read to, you know, those who grow up to be the ideas guys.

it's not the ideas guy who is vital for the startup to be honest. everyone has ideas. it's not the ideas part of him which is vital but the ability to generate money with the idea even prior to the idea being executed - financing. some even do it without having the coder...

and maybe the field is in such a slump in UK that coders actually do come to fix his computer parts for him, which would make his plumber analogy apt. they say there's always good money in plumbing though and the same paper is reporting about eastern european laborers taking uk jobs, so maybe, maybe, they should teach it if they don't want to lose their jobs.

Applies to any field

[manu0601]

The criticism applies to any field. In order to get good at something, most people need to work on it to acquire skills and knowledge.History? Dull and weirdos. Philosophy? Dull and weirdos. Sport? Dull and weirdos. And so on.

Re: Applies to any field

[JWW]

Except perhaps for writing editorials. That appears to require no discern able skills at all...

Re: Applies to any field

[manu0601]

I am sure one can write editorials without talking about stuff one knows nothing about...

Excellent

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, steer more people away from my profession. Job security, ba-by!

I agree with:

[the_skywise]

"if the subject is to be taught to everyone, it needs to have a vital application in everyday life"

Coding isn't for everybody and I think this great race to turn every kid into a programmer because that will magickly make 'em smart is overblown.

Somehow "we" had no idea how to use computers because none of us were programmers first and instead had such things as segas and nintendos and had no idea how to use them... or learn the complexity of computer operating so much to be able to use a joystick with 8 button analog controls, two thumbsticks and an anacrhonistic D-pad...

None of that prepared us for touchscreen usage...

NONE!

To think if only I had been taught programming first.. I could USE all of that stuff!!!

Re:I agree with:

[nctritech]

In all honesty, I wish they made it possible to control a computer UI with a game control pad. Then again, I'm one of the dull weirdos who used to love the Trackpoint back in the day (where they exist now, they're just "pointing sticks" and no one knows how to use them). While I'm speaking of game controllers being used to manipulate a GUI... GEOS 1.2, anyone?

Re:I agree with:

[Nemyst]

It's not about "turning every kid into a programmer", it's about exposing them to as many things as possible. This is how they can form opinions on what they want to do with their life, it's how they find hobbies and passions, it's how they learn. The more varied we can get education, the better.

Re:I agree with:

[Patch86]

I don't know about your professional life, but mine would be MUCH improved if all the non-techies I deal with every day had a passing, rudimentary understanding of what programming actually is.

You wouldn't casually ask your mechanic, when taking your car in for a service, if he could just make your car electric instead of petrol. You wouldn't ask your plumber, when fixing a leaky sink, if he could just turn it into a jacuzzi while he's at it. But business people will frequently ask, from programmers carrying out routine development, if they can just add a colossally complex new product database to a webform "while we're at it". That's more or less the definition of "scope creep", and it's killed almost as many projects I've experienced as I've actually seen finished. And to be clear, I'm not expecting them to know how to do it themselves- just to understand the consequences of features they ask for.

If our business people had that basic level of understanding, more of our projects would complete successfully, more quickly, more cheaply, saving our company millions.

Re:I agree with:

[serviscope_minor]

"if the subject is to be taught to everyone, it needs to have a vital application in everyday life"

You agree with that???

That actually leaves nothing at all. Nothing is vital in everyday life for everyone. You can actually survive being fnuctionally illiterate and with no ability to add numbers (in the UK, for example, tax is done for you in almost all cases). An understanding of maths, English, science, history, geography, languages, art, music, civics, debating, how to build or fix things, how to cook. None of them are vital.

It's not even vital in everyday life to know how to tie your laces since you can buy slip on or velcro shoes.

I do agree with one point

[rsilvergun]

sinking millions into teaching every kid to code is a waste. Better to focus on math, which is the hard part of programming. Stringing together for loops isn't rocket science. That said, it does require a certain amount of skill, and I'm sure companies are tired of paying for that skill. This new push to get everyone coding is really just a bunch of rich $@$#s trying to get cheaper programmers on the public dime :(.

Re:I do agree with one point

[turbidostato]

"Better to focus on math, which is the hard part of programming."

There you have an argument. I'm not saying a good one, but an argument: let's use programming as a way to reach to math.

On the other hand, coding is a way of expression. Arguably, coding makes you more expressive, in ways neither natural language nor maths can allow being kindof a middle ground between them.

Re:I do agree with one point

[darkwing_bmf]

"Better to focus on math, which is the hard part of programming."

How about focusing on logic? That's the real key to programming. Well, that and reading instruction manuals.

Re:I do agree with one point

[ruir]

I have no idea why they don't sink billions to make every kid a doctor or a rocket scientist. Asides from the sarcasm, sinking money in education is a well-known loophole to feed money to certain organisations that go hand-in-hand with power, namely the Catholic Church in strong Catholic countries like Spain and Portugal.

Re:I do agree with one point

[rve]

I agree. Arguing that every kid should learn to code is no different from arguing that every kid should learn to drive or every kid should learn the basics of orthodontic surgery. Both are very useful skills that could help them land a high paying job.

Re:I do agree with one point

[Ihlosi]

Better to focus on math, which is the hard part of programming.

The hard part of programming is breaking down a large task into smaller subtasks that are both easy to understand by (other!) programmers and can be done efficiently by the available hardware.

Re:I do agree with one point

[Yaztromo]

Better to focus on math, which is the hard part of programming.

Perhaps in mathematical topics such as mathematical logic, recursive definitions, automata theory, graph theory, algorithms, Turing machines, computability theory, or complexity theory?

Yaz

Re:I do agree with one point

[Alioth]

The thing is you don't have to sink huge amounts of money into it.

The problem is with schools (at least around here) is that what they teach as "IT" and "computer literacy" is in fact nothing of the sort - they are just teaching office skills, not really any different to how my mother was taught to touch type and to use shorthand.

This is then compounded by the schools going out of their way and spending quite a lot of resources **actively blocking** children who are curious about how computers work actually experimenting and learning how they work. A teenager in 2013 has fewer opportunities today to learn how to program at school in their own time than I did in 1989. My school in the late 80s didn't teach programming, but they did encourage you to use the computer room and learn for yourself if you were interested in that sort of thing. The schools today don't do that, they actually actively go out of their way to prevent kids from learning about how computers work. I find it grotesque that in 2013 kids have fewer opportunities to learn to program than I did in 1989.

Re:I do agree with one point

[Alioth]

Why not use computing to teach maths? Especially for the students who seem to enjoy doing that. Mathematics to many is a pretty dry subject and it's also pretty abstract. In the late 80s our computer room at school had no real rules except "you must not play any computer game that you didn't write yourself".

Many students who got bored in maths learned *properly* about trigonometry, algebra, quadratic functions, linear transformations and the like because of their curiosity with computers and their attempts to write a game, programming gave them the motivation to learn these things.

Re:I do agree with one point

[mpe]

The problem is with schools (at least around here) is that what they teach as "IT" and "computer literacy" is in fact nothing of the sort - they are just teaching office skills, not really any different to how my mother was taught to touch type and to use shorthand.

The modern version is possibly more limited. Since the older version wasn't restricted to using one model of typewriter...

Re:I do agree with one point

[darkwing_bmf]

I had plenty of undergrad courses. But I started programming before all of that. Those courses can help make you a better programmer but they are by no means required for a programming course in middle or high school.

The great part about starting early is it opens a doorway. A student can start with basic knowledge of programming (e.g. flow charts, if-then statements, loops) and a personal goal (e.g. create a game) and be motivated enough to learn enough of the rest on their own (assuming they have a computer and either Internet access or relevant books). Self motivated learning is itself enough to warrant teaching programming at a young age.

Great flame bait

[Bottle Washer]

There are a lot of names people can use to describe programmers ( I am one ) but exceptionally dull weirdos made me smile because of its obvious trolling. It is amazing how many people will get angry at him when really it is more comical than anything.

Re:Great flame bait

[gweihir]

Indeed. I am programmer, designer, architect, evaluator, educator, consultant, researcher. This guy does not have what it takes to even begin to criticize or understand what I do.

Oh crap...

[CyberSnyder]

I was just thinking about 15 minutes ago that I had a very enjoyable day doing some real coding.

You need to consider the author.

[Dzimas]

Listen, the guy who wrote this blog piece for the Telegraph didn't grow up to become a doctor,engineer, astronaut, scientist or programmer. He writes op-ed pieces for a newspaper. According to LinkedIn, he holds an LLB in law, then pursued an MSc in Business Entrepreneurship and followed up with a brief tenure as a music festival coordinator, PR agency account exec and finally became a freelance TV presenter and magazine editor. It might just be that he considers technically gifted individuals to be "exceptionally dull weirdos" simply because he doesn't understand what they're saying.

Re:You need to consider the author.

[benjfowler]

Reads like he's a privileged tool. Must be a fucking bore himself.

Rich

[Horshu]

Coming from a professional panty-sniffer.

Where would we be ...

[kawabago]

Where would we be without idiots like this to make us feel smart? The same place but feeling less smart.

now we know why

[Anonymous Coward]

Now we know why Britain is a fading world power.......

are we in the dark ages?

[mov_eax_eax]

a lot of people can benefit from a little coding background, I met a girl, not dull at all, that program textile patterns, a lot of financial people could program a few lines and save a lot of excel madness, many scientists that can prove or disprove hypotheses, biologists banging his heads to process the sheer raw data, contemporary musicians and artists that should know how to program to make their performances.

Sure kids will hate programming the same way most of the kids hate their math lessons, or their sexual education, or the arts program. But teach to everyone programming even with bad teachers, bad curriculum will bring a new breed of innovations and make the life happier to all of us.

Re:are we in the dark ages?

[Opportunist]

I, for one, enjoyed my sex educat... oh, you mean at school.

Never mind, then.

Can't do without excellent coders

[wvmarle]

Interestingly he mentions:

There's a reason most startup co-founders are "the charming ideas guy" paired with "the tech genius".

Of course, there is a reason for that. And it's not that programmers are dull weirdo's. That one statement totally undermines anything negative he has to say about coders. The guy with charming ideas is nothing without a genius coder to implement them. And the coder indeed needs the ideas guy to suggest what he's going to code, and how it's going to look like. One can't do without the other, and so it goes in so many fields of work.

Of course there is no need to make just everyone a skilled coder. I'd like to see schools teach at least the basics of coding, so kids know the existence of the field and what it's used for, but no need for more than that, unless the kid wants it.

And for being "dull weirdo's"? Well one thing what makes a good coder is the ability to concentrate deeply and focus on single subjects for a prolonged period of time. And that's exactly the quality that makes those people "dull" (thinking of just a single subject) and "weirdo" (being able to close one off from the outside world) in the eyes of people that do not have that specific quality.

Re:Can't do without excellent coders

[timeOday]

The guy with charming ideas is nothing without a genius coder to implement them. And the coder indeed needs the ideas guy to suggest what he's going to code, and how it's going to look like. One can't do without the other, and so it goes in so many fields of work.

Sure, but in the end, the face man (let's call him "Jobs") is going to be a billionaire, whereas the coder ("Woz", if you will) is going to go a few years making $80K at the company he co-founded, and then get fired by Jobs to make way for dozens of other younger, cheaper Wozzes.

Re:Can't do without excellent coders

[wwalker]

The guy with charming ideas is nothing without a genius coder to implement them. And the coder indeed needs the ideas guy to suggest what he's going to code, and how it's going to look like. One can't do without the other, and so it goes in so many fields of work.

Um, no. Ideas are dime a dozen. The key word there is "charming". You need a schmoozer/promoter to make an idea popular, and being a charismatic leader does help. Plus, most "tech geniuses" are antisocial, often because they find it mind-numbingly boring to do the necessary steps to make any venture successful past implementing an idea. But tech people can be as creative and full of ideas as anyone else. We just lose interest right after we get it up and running, and move on to the next idea. :)

Re:Can't do without excellent coders

[girlintraining]

Sure, but in the end, the face man (let's call him "Jobs") is going to be a billionaire, whereas the coder ("Woz", if you will) is going to go a few years making $80K at the company he co-founded, and then get fired by Jobs to make way for dozens of other younger, cheaper Wozzes.

It is fortunate then that the Wozzes of the world are not so easily discouraged. Jobs' legacy is that he became rich at the expense of so many others, lived a life of vanity and turtleneck sweaters, and then bargained with the devil to gain a few more years of that life when sickness came for him, arranging secret operations that skirted the law. He was hated by all who worked for him, and his empire is already starting to crumble, and he hasn't been in the ground pushing daisies for all that long either.

But Woz... He helped to kick off the start of the information age. That's something he can tell his children, and his children's children. It is something that those who care about history will remember. But even if they don't, even if history forgets the name Steve Wozniac, he contributed something that genuinely was for the betterment of all mankind.

And that's why the Wozzes of the world get up every day, brush their teeth, comb their hair back, put on their work shoes, and drive the long road into work; They don't care about recognition, they care about contribution. So it has been with all the truly great people down through history. And that is why what Jobs built is already crumbling -- it was just a effigy to his own greatness -- while what Woz built, the personal computer, has lifted over a billion people into the information age already and dramatically altered the course of human history. Apple will eventually die; but the personal computer -- I think that will live on for a very, very long time.

Re:Can't do without excellent coders

[durrr]

"the charming ideas guy" is a derogatory term in my book. It represents the hopeless idiot that have his idea of the new facebook/WoW/sliced bread and looks for someone to work for free to help him make it.

The cooperation will last approximately a week because the idea guys doesn't have a clue about any technical detail or the process required to fulfil a fraction of his ideas.

And there's like a billion of these morons.

What drives tech progress is competence and ideas.

Re:Can't do without excellent coders

[wvmarle]

Please correct me if I'm wrong but I thought Bill Gates was one of the main coders at Microsoft in its start-up phase, the main product of the company has always been software. Steve Jobs on the other hand was staring a hardware business, and hardware has always remained their main product, though of course they also developed their own software to operate it.

Re:Can't do without excellent coders

[u38cg]

Woz wasn't fired. He left of his own volition, and is still an Apple employee and still draws a salary.

Re:Can't do without excellent coders

[benjfowler]

Mod parent up. "Ideas people" suck.

Re:Can't do without excellent coders

[spiritplumber]

No, sorry. If I do something, I want the recognition. Case in point, OpenROV.

Re:Can't do without excellent coders

[interval1066]

Villifying a dead man, nice. Look, I respect you, and I agree with what you say, most of the time, but now that man is dead, and all the grousing about him now is wankerism to an extreme degree, sigifying nothing. And I'm no Apple fan boy, trust me. But it took Jobs to get pc's in consumers hands, and there's no complaints against the man you can make to change that. Give the man that legacy.

Re:Can't do without excellent coders

[david_thornley]

Actually, Jobs wasn't the only one putting computers into the hands of consumers. The TRS-80 and Commodore Pet came out a few months later, and they weren't (as far as I can tell) motivated by Apple. Jobs did a lot of very significant work, but he was in the front of the first wave of home computers that didn't need to be soldered largely by accident.

Re:Can't do without excellent coders

[girlintraining]

Villifying a dead man, nice. Look, I respect you, and I agree with what you say, most of the time, but now that man is dead, and all the grousing about him now is wankerism to an extreme degree, sigifying nothing.

I guess since Hitler's dead now too, we can't call him a bastard either...

Relax, it's the Daily Telegraph

[Anonymous Coward]

A British right wing troll-ish paper for people who get apopleptic if someone didn't stand in the street waving a union jack flag on the queen's birthday......

But as they have felt the need to label us techies who are building the modern world as "exceptionally dull weirdos", let me introduce you to the paper's owners, a pair of reclusive twins who own a private island outside British tax jurisdiction, and you can make up your own minds : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_and_Frederick_Barclay#Controversies

They should learn it

[Samuel Dravis]

At least in my job -- call center management -- people need to learn how to use spreadsheets effectively, as well as simple coding techniques (for scripting). It is endlessly useful to me that I can do those things. I've personally automated a lot of our current systems and saved endless man-hours.

Re:They should learn it

[l0n3s0m3phr34k]

must be nice. At my job, whenever I script something, I never tell anyone for fear of (again) being told that it's "not approved" and "against policy". A few days ago I had a ticket to add 50+ to a cisco wireless guest system, mainly because no one else wanted to touch it because they only know how to do it by hand. Dumping the CVS took a few seconds, it too way longer to replicate 50 tickets and change each name by hand and individually close them all...and don't even get me started about our HPSM that doesn't even allow ctrl-z "undo", is both a ticketing system and a knowledge base (and therefor sucks at both), failes to do it's "case exchange" with other systems at least 20% of the time...

Re:Yes, why indeed, teach STEM to children?

[MildlyTangy]

How did you type your post? Did you have to dictate what you wanted to say to somebody who can type the words out? Since nothing you ever learnt in "gradeschool" ( im presuming primary school here ) was ever useful in your (miserable by the sounds of it) life, how on Earth did you get along in life without ever having to read and write? ( you know, that thing you had to do in 'gradeschool' using a "pencil" and "paper" when learning how to write and read ) Seriously, your entire argument fell flat at that point, I didnt bother reading it any further after that debacle.

Certainly not the only one

[Anonymous Coward]

Do recall that the selling point of offshoring programming was that it was a low skill job (and therefore dull, and so on), best left to cheap dullards in low wage countries. Apparently this was entirely the right decision and no programming happens whatsoever in the "first" world, at all, any longer.

Re:Certainly not the only one

[Opportunist]

Considering the quality of certain newspapers, I can only assume that they did the same to journalism...

Understanding

[EmperorOfCanada]

I find many people who have an "artistic" background simply don't understand us technical types. This lack of understanding seems to frustrate them. I think that technically minded people don't mind not knowing the details of other technical areas, as they know that they could learn them if they cared to. But for artistic types they see technical stuff as a dark art. This leads to a huge source of frustration when they have to step into our area such as working a ticket kiosk, their laptops, their home router, the dashboard in their cars, or write articles about things like thorium reactors.

After a while they start to think that the various bad interface designs are a conspiracy against them; this is only compounded when a technical type reaches over and helps them with a flick of a single switch, and when asked why couldn't it have been designed better it becomes obvious that the technical person is hunting for a way to not say, "They assumed that you had at least a double digit IQ." and then it becomes hatred.

Another source of frustration is the implied knowledge that the world could get by with far far fewer artists but not with far fewer engineers. It might be a less colourful world but the engines of civilization need engineers.

Re:Understanding

[Krishnoid]

But for artistic types they see technical stuff as a dark art.

If it was an art, wouldn't they have some grasp of it? If you know about computing and electrical engineering, you can explain how things work down to the electron level. Someone else performing the same actions on a computer can produce identical results.

Art, on the other hand, never produces the same results from different people, and you can't step someone through things in the same way you do things, and yet artists have individual styles that carry through their pieces. Why isnt that considered a dark art?

Re:Understanding

[kidchameleon]

This is a rather uninformed post regarding the field of computer programming. I don't mean to disrespect you, but I implore you to a) do a little more research and b) open your mind. As an "artistic" type myself, I have found that it has only helped me in the field of software development. After all, a system is an abstraction of a process, or series of processes, that represent a real world problem to be solved. The nature of that abstraction is manifested in its objects and their implementations and properties. These things aren't tangible; not in the sense of concrete or steel anyway. Yet they are every bit the result of a creative approach. I've been developing since 1986, yet I received a degree in architecture; a hightly "artistic" endeavor to say the least. Throughout the years, I have found more similarities than differences in these two fields. Surely one can make a concrete box with a roof on it (like Wal Mart). Similarly, one can make a program that "works" (like a program that updates databases). But the real beauty of software should lie not only in its function, but its form. Does it inspire the users who interact with it? Has it solved a problem elegantly? I agree with the importance of technical aspects present in programming. However, to assume that engineering is only a technical endeavor or that artists only provide a "colorful world" is to miss a major facet of our field.

Re:Understanding

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with you, if only for the fact that I'm quite involved in electronics, am not artistic at all, and programming is almost a brick wall for me. It seems very abstract and difficult for me to grasp. I feel like I would understand much more if I was more creative-artistic and not so..... oh, I don't know what I am. I don't think programming is mainly technical in nature at all, it's an art form.

Re:Understanding

[EmperorOfCanada]

You are correct. I am referring to the perception of many artistic types, especially literary types; so I agree and would state that good programmers are technicians whereas great programmers are artists. If anything it is the patterns within this art that allow us to fluently use a device that we have never seen before that was handed to us by someone who was unable to even turn it on. We all know that rebooting solves so many problems and can even hazard guesses as to what is happening but still proceed with the incantation of reboot everything.

But where non-technical people start to get suspicious is when we start to combine different knowledge areas. I was at a person's house when they spilled pop into their keyboard which stopped working. So I immediately unplugged it and ran it under a tap, then swung it around my head, then poured rubbing alcohol into it, then swung it around my head a bit more, then put it into a garbage bag with a half box of cheap rice, and then told them to leave it there overnight. They thought that I had gone quite mad.

I explained that even getting the pop out would not be enough because the sugar would concentrate and gum up the keys plus the phosphoric acid would probably do a number on the circuits over the next few days, plus the solution would conduct electricity, while the water would wash away the pop, and the alcohol would displace the water, not rust the circuits, and evaporate more quickly, the rice would then speed up the evaporation of any water that was left behind.

They were incredulous that a programmer could know so much electronics, physics and chemistry.

The next day it was with smug satisfaction that when they plugged the keyboard back in that it didn't work. I came by knowing that it should and found that they had plugged it into the network port. It worked plus it was cleaner than ever.

The saying that any technology sufficiently advanced will appear to be magic seems to apply now to a fair chunk of the population. We technical types are working with magic; dark and powerful magic; hence the dark arts.

Re:Understanding

[jmhobrien]

I agree with most of what you are saying, however... interfaces designed by coders are usually awful.

Re:Understanding

[Drishmung]

Plus ça change... I recommend C P Snow's The Two Cultures from 1959!

A good many times I have been present at gatherings of people who, by the standards of the traditional culture, are thought highly educated and who have with considerable gusto been expressing their incredulity at the illiteracy of scientists. Once or twice I have been provoked and have asked the company how many of them could describe the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The response was cold: it was also negative. Yet I was asking something which is the scientific equivalent of: Have you read a work of Shakespeare’s?

I now believe that if I had asked an even simpler question — such as, What do you mean by mass, or acceleration, which is the scientific equivalent of saying, Can you read? — not more than one in ten of the highly educated would have felt that I was speaking the same language. So the great edifice of modern physics goes up, and the majority of the cleverest people in the western world have about as much insight into it as their neolithic ancestors would have had.

Note however the valid criticism of the essay (see the wikipedia entry).

And personally, I want artists and engineers thanks. I prefer my engines to be beautiful---most especially my engines of mass destruction :)

Re:Understanding

[DNS-and-BIND]

I was all set to make a comment right before you said "architecture", which is the ONE FIELD that has long been considered the crossroads between art and science. Your perspective is skewed.

Re:Understanding

[mpe]

After a while they start to think that the various bad interface designs are a conspiracy against them; this is only compounded when a technical type reaches over and helps them with a flick of a single switch, and when asked why couldn't it have been designed better it becomes obvious that the technical person is hunting for a way to not say, "They assumed that you had at least a double digit IQ." and then it becomes hatred.

Assuming that the "technical type" isn't silently cursing the user interface... Also what type of person usually designs user interfaces?

Re:Understanding

[khallow]

Computing sciences is simply applied Mathematics and THAT my friend... is art, not science.

Science is not science. Got it.

Re:Understanding

[khallow]

What about music? Sculpture? Painting? Even theater and cinema? All of those are in the crossroads

What of them? I don't see any of them in the "crossroads". Architecture requires considerable appreciation of engineering or people die.

so arguably

Anything is arguable.

Re:Understanding

[ChuckDivine]

I must step in here and make a few comments because I am both a tech person and an artist. How did that happen? When I was graduating from Rutgers with a degree in physics, my parents gave me a nice 35 mm camera outfit. A decade later the Princeton Ballet was paying me for my ballet photos. Photography has always been an important hobby of mine. It has also helped me in important ways at work. It has helped me to develop an artistic side that communicates better than too many tech people. It also helps me to understand society -- both the larger one and the tech one -- better than most.

Let me point people to my Flickr site where I am known as Chuck Divine. There are over 40,000 images there. My Science Fiction Art has gotten me attention in Washington, DC art circles.

I eventually got into IT, partly because I was good at it, partly because I liked doing it and partly because I could make a decent living at it. My career has taken me to all sorts of places -- including NASA. At NASA where I saw some good people doing good work -- and some screwing up so badly that it caused major accidents like that which happened to the Space Shuttle Columbia. Do check out the report of the Columbia Accident Investigation Board. It is a well done analysis of a tech organization that needs significant reform.

I have also gotten involved in the STEM problem. Some of us are calling it the STEAM problem. The A stands for the Arts. It seems that scientists and engineers with an artistic side are more productive in their tech field than people without that side. They also work better with other people, tech and not tech. Some years ago I wrote a public policy paper titled Aerospace Workforce Issues that gets into this topic in some depth.

Let me finish by telling people here that people who know me describe me as bright, friendly and a bit shy and quiet -- most of the time.

That's more than enough for now. I hope I have been able to get some tech people to consider opening their minds a bit.

Re:Understanding

[EmperorOfCanada]

I know a guy who did his architecture thesis on the problem of most architects being only artists and not engineers. There is a famous story attributed to many architects where a couple had a fancy house designed by a famous architect and it leaked horribly. So they called him to the house and with the plans on a table near a huge puddle on the marble floor out asked him to fix it. So he folded the plans into a paper boat and floated it on the puddle saying, I am an artist not a contractor.

Re:Understanding

[EmperorOfCanada]

I think that 3D printing is going to get interesting in that it will potentially allow an engineer to design a part, then hand it over to an artist and have the 3D software restrain the artist with certain parameters such as size, stress, mass, materials, etc. But then the artist can take, say, a very pedestrian looking hinge and make it a work of art all the while not increasing the cost or reducing the functionality.

Then the artist can hand it back to the engineer who will double check that the functionality has not been compromised.

The key to all this being that 3D printing a flatish surface that is 3 cubic inches will be nearly the same cost as printing a patterned or otherwise more intricate surface that is also 3 cubic inches.

I would love to have a technically minded on staff artist to make everything I build more beautiful.

But if during a plague I had the choice between having a population of vaccine experts and a population of poets I know which I would prefer. But a healthy society ideally can manage to support both.

Flamebait perhaps, but largely true

[Anonymous Coward]

FTFA:

"Coding is a niche, mechanical skill, a bit like plumbing or car repair."
Correct.

As a subject, it only appeals to a limited set of people – the aforementioned dull weirdos.
Correct. Same goes for Accounting, Plumbing, Car repair, etc etc

There’s a reason most startup co-founders are “the charming ideas guy” paired with “the tech genius”. It’s because if you leave the tech genius on his own he’ll start muttering to himself.
Correct.

Trying to pretend that coding is the right skill for everyone is utter nonsense – for most people, it’s exponentially less useful than the basic level of IT literacy most people still lack...
Correct.

However, the new curriculum that Jack likes so much wrongly thinks that teaching everyone to code is the answer
Correct.

If a school subject is to be taught to everyone, it needs to have a vital application in everyday life...
Correct, and...
and that’s just not true of coding.
Correct.

  it doesn't begin to compare with basic maths, spelling or reading
Correct.

Most of the Slashdot readership is more "computer literate" than most, but that does not mean the whole world should be. I just plain is not necessary. The only part of programming that could be useful to most young minds is the concepts behind breaking down a problem into manageble parts and solving those one at a time. That's a "philosophy" and it requires no coding.

So while the author of the article may have intended to start a bit of a flamewar, at least he had some solid ground to stand on.

My take

[Tablizer]

Well, as an exceptionally dull weirdo......he's right.

- EDW

Initiate Flame Thrower

[Greyfox]

Hmm. Journalism Degree. Work for minimum wage (or less) for your entire career. Waiters make more money than you. CS degree, sixty grand a year right out of school, most of them will be making at least six digits long before the end of their career. I enjoy being an exceptionally dull weirdo. How's journalism treating you?

Re:Initiate Flame Thrower

[c0lo]

Hmm. Journalism Degree. Work for minimum wage (or less) for your entire career. Waiters make more money than you. CS degree, sixty grand a year right out of school, most of them will be making at least six digits long before the end of their career. I enjoy being an exceptionally dull weirdo. How's journalism treating you?

Well, think what if all non-weirdos would be able to code as dull-weirdos do? Would you still bet on the 6 digits wages?

Re:Initiate Flame Thrower

[benjfowler]

Journalism is for the rich. They typically force interns to work for free -- and only the rich can afford to pay for their kids to work for nothing for months of years on end.

Because journalism is full of rich-arses, they sympathise with the class interests of the rich. Should anybody be surprised?

Coding is vital to everyday life ...

[MacTO]

Much like mathematics, our society has a tendency to treat computer programming as something exceptional. At best, it is treated as the domain of the very bright. At worse, the people who are passionate about it are seen as weirdos. That is a huge problem.

Even though people can muddle through life without these skills, they could do a lot better if they had those skills. Take the simple matter of money. As an individual, programming (and math) can help you save money. As a business person, programming (and math) can help you run a business more efficiently. This is the case because these skills are extremely useful in decision making processes. Programming can help you obtain and process large amounts of data in ways that prepackaged software wonâ(TM)t. Mathematics will help you find ways to optimize outcomes.

The problem is that a lot of people simply donâ(TM)t understand that. They would rather use their instinctive responses, or rules of thumb (which are often untrue) than actually analyze a problem. The origins of that attitude are likely due to a lack of education: they either missed the motivation behind what they are learning, or they are dismissive of it because they failed to learn the skills. And yes, that needs to be overcome.

Re:Coding is vital to everyday life ...

[slew]

Coding may be valuable to some people's life, but given the number of people who successfully "muddled" through their lives w/o these skills, I think statistically (or perhaps in the actuarial sense) I would have an issue with a blanket statement like this is a vital skill...

Certainly knowing math can help you run a business or save money, but you don't really have to know any "coding" skills to get a feeling for numbers and use prepackaged software (e.g, hack up a spreadsheet) to get answers that are "good-enough" so you can spend your time practicing your most valuable skills (be it plumbing, or neuro-surgery) instead of coding/hacking up a program in java or C++ (or visual basic)...

Coding, like any valuable skill, take a bit of talent and practice. But is not key skill (unlike math and english), just because it's useful.

As a stupid example, when your toilet flapper valve wears out, it might be valuable and save you a few buck to know a bit of theory about this so you can go down to the hardware store and replace it yourself and save a few bucks, but as we know there are certainly people who call a plumber in this situation (and probably get ripped off). Although the /. crowd might look down on them too, they mostly manage to muddle through life (some of them earning more than we will ever see in our lifetimes). You might argue that learning the general in-and-outs of how a toilet works to make this kind of repair is actually plumbing, but it's really more akin to learning a common math-trick or discovering the excel compound interest function vs learning coding (and it certainly won't make you a master plumber, no more than knowing how to hack a program makes you a coder or even a professional software engineer).

Coders are the mechanics/machinists of the modern age. Highly technical, dedicated to their craft, important part of the industrial/economic engine, spawned a generation of amateurs that tinkered (usually with their cars) some of which were inspired to grow up to be professionals. But still not a vital skill for everyone.

Happy to be a dull weirdo

[Anonymous Coward]

I make 3-4x the average income, probably 4-5x what a newspaper columnist makes. I get to travel for my job: India, Japan, Czech Republic, Switzerland, Belgium, and England this year alone. I like the work I do.

And on top of all that there's the hookers and blow.

Re:Happy to be a dull weirdo

[Anonymous Coward]

Ahh, but you'll never master creative writing, which is an essential skill for anyone who wants to succeed in life.

who the F cares?

[csumpi]

who the F cares about what some telegraph contributor says? not my shirt, not gonna wear it. (alt tab back to visual studio)

Coding has no vital application to every-day life

[Arancaytar]

Unlike solving integrals, analyzing Shakespeare's sonnets and knowing the difference between ionic and covalent bonds.

Coding is a niche, mechanical skill?

[Culture20]

Coding is a creative process, closer to painting or writing.

Re:Coding is a niche, mechanical skill?

[c0lo]

Coding is a creative process, closer to painting or writing.

For me lately is like carving. You know? Getting out the unnecessary and let only the beautiful lines speak for themselves.

Re:Coding is a niche, mechanical skill?

[moschner]

The problem is that coding is treated as a STEM course instead of the langauge course that it is.

Coding should be treated more like a language class than a science class. Yes there is some math involved, but the amount needed varies greatly depending on the language used and desired outcome.

If schools looked at programing like a language, they might see more people choosing to code. Start with a single coding language and work from there. Think of it like trying to first teach someone to read and understand English or Spanish. Learn to read code written in a language, then learn to write it. Follow a process similar to that of child learning their alphabet then words and sentences and eventually going on from there. It takes time to go from learning your ABC''s to write poetry or a novel. For many it will take that same amount of time to learn to code.

Teach a single language as the core language, and then have other coding languages be available to learn much like other languages are now in schools. I would suggest Cobol as it is used in a large number of businesses, has many dialects and variations for covering various programing concepts, and more importantly the syntax was designed so that non-programmers could read and understand the code.

Part of the problem is that we are trying to teach "coding" instead of teaching a language that will allow people to code.

Re:Coding is a niche, mechanical skill?

[Culture20]

If schools looked at programing like a language, they might see more people choosing to code.

If schools treated programming the same way they treat foreign languages, we'd get mandatory programming classes where students can choose from imperative, functional, logical, or machine language tracks (but everyone would take imperative languages, and machine languages would be treated like Latin).

And "Telegraph Contributing"...

[turrican]

And "Telegraph Contributing"... is for... exceptionally self-aggrandizing idiots?

Ivory tower attitude

[techno-vampire]

This is exactly the type of blather I'd expect from academics, especially from those who've never had to learn anything about science and/or math in a college-level class. They don't understand it, they don't see any reason why they should understand it and they don't think that anything outside of their narrow specialty is at all important to anybody in the world, but they look down at everybody who isn't fascinated by the the most minute aspects of whatever navel-gazing "discipline" they've decided to make their life's work. Most of them know little if anything that could possibly be of the slightest use to anybody who isn't part of academentia, and they think that this makes them better than everybody else. Some of the posters here have called him a troll, but he isn't; a troll takes an extreme position to get other people to over-react, but this man really believes that what he's writing is true.

Re:Ivory tower attitude

[Nemyst]

Except he's quite far from an academic. Academics tend to have a modicum of common sense and won't insult other academics for no apparent reason. Remember, many academics could run circles around your coding/physics/mathematics/ skills. The entire point of academia is what you seem to dislike: honing one particular skill to the very apex of its field, be it literature, mathematics, computer science, theology or whatever else. It's an important part of our society, as at this point our pool of knowledge is so large that we can't reasonably expect most people (or heck, most academics) to understand enough in multiple disciplines that they can actually do breakthroughs. It takes years of learning in a particular subset of a field to be able to move the field along.

It's not because you haven't noticed the influence of academia that it isn't there. You may simply have to look a bit further.

Re:Ivory tower attitude

[techno-vampire]

The entire point of academia is what you seem to dislike: honing one particular skill to the very apex of its field...

You misunderstand me. Honing one particular skill can be a fine thing, but looking down your nose at anybody who's not interested in whatever it is you've specialized in, especially when whatever they're interested in has practical applications, is one of the uglier forms of snobbery.

This, ladies and gentlemen

[Swampash]

Is the state of Slashdot in 2013. Posting troll articles for ad impressions and clickbait.

Re:This, ladies and gentlemen

[tftp]

Fear not, nobody is going to click to RTFA. Slashdot's readers don't need to read someone's opinion (that is also wrong, of course.) Every reader has his own opinion. Slashdot's value is in discussion on a given subject. If the subject is sufficiently presented in the summary, that's all that is needed for a lively debate.

The UK had it all

[AHuxley]

With the BASIC, BBC computer literacy project hardware and software. So many where been offered that once in a generation access to emerging tech.
It seems the US did *something* to ensure an uptake of their educational brands at a competitive price.
The UK computing is now the plaything of expensive US brands, the NSA and junk encryption.
With UK end users simply tapping, pressing and consuming US products and apps.
Higher education teaching UK generations how to use junk US encryption and been locked into a life of expensive US programming software.
The exceptionally dull weirdos could have saved many in the UK from global snooping with more secure domestic code.
The UK had a vibrant cassette and code magazine marketplace with very skilled computer entrepreneurs.
My advice for any UK IT press story is to look into who activily slowed/sold out the UK computer market and let the US in for free.

Re:The UK had it all

[Alioth]

The UK had it all but I don;t think there was a "conspiracy" to help let US brands (or any other brands) in - don't ascribe to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

The real tragedy is this. Although in the late 80s our school offered no courses in computing, it did have a computer lab, and anyone who showed even a slight interest was more than encouraged to come in during break times, free periods, after school and play with the machines (an econet network of BBC Micros). The only real rule was no games - unless you wrote the game. There were quite a few kids who spent much of their free time tinkering with the computers - teaching themselves, and in the process learning more things too, such as learning maths in a fun and rewarding way (writing a computer game will often mean you have to make practical use of all those things that come up in maths lessons - trigonometry, matrices, vectors, algebra, that kind of thing).

Now in 2013 most schools don't have a computer lab like that. Oh, they have plenty of computers but they are all locked down hard and students are actively blocked from self-directed computer learning.

It is grotesque than in 2013 students are offered less opportunity to learn computing than I was in the late 1980s. There really is no excuse for it.

Re:The UK had it all

[AHuxley]

I was thinking back to the US/Japan chip and OS trade 'deals'/war in the mid to late 1980's to early 1990's. Wondering if the UK got the same special US political treatments? Recall how Japan was emerging with RAM, CPU and even some OS export options and then 'nothing'.

Re:Economy in Shitter

[foobar bazbot]

This is just one more reason these dumpfkofen have an economy worse than the US.

Dummkopfen, sie dummkopf!

(Yes, I'm quite sure I used the wrong second-person pronoun. Y'know, Germany, English used to have more than one of those, too, but we got rid of the extras 'cause they're STUPID! Get with the program, already.)

Actually, his job is at risk.

[Ungrounded Lightning]

... the only reason said asshole has a job is because someone coded the [infrastructure] that he's posting from to claim this.

Actually, the Telegraph is an old line newspaper.

Granted it's one of the few that has established a strong Web presence. But, like other old-line papers, it's having serious business model problems, as the readership abandons mainstream "news is really infotainment-like art product" operations for actual reporting of information on the Internet.

So those coders have created the juggernaut that is crashing his opportunities for employment.

I read his posting as sour grapes, taking a swipe at the people he sees as a threat.

False dichotomy

[michaelmalak]

Why is the ability to think logically the opposite of being socially persuasive?

It's not, and in the trivium of classical education, rhetoric follows logic and grammar.

What if the world were filled with citizens who each combined the best of Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak? There would be a lot fewer nerds in the basement grousing about social inequity (and instead doing something about it), and a lot more politicians who would be able to foresee the unforeseen consequences of Obamacare. The current power brokers would be threatened. Thus, no real education is made available in the public schools.

News?

[coffbr01]

Every day I interact with "tradespeople," beit fabricators, metal spinners, or HVAC specialists. I'm a software engineer by trade. The line between making things and taking credit for their success/failure can be a blessing or a curse for my kind. Let's hope that software engineering continues to be an in-demand skill, especially for those whose projects fail.

There's more than one definition of "dull".

[mr_mischief]

There's more than one definition of "dull". Perhaps he doesn't mean "dull" as in "dullard" or a stupid person. Perhaps he means "dull" as in unexciting and uninteresting. Being boring and poorly social is true of some programmers, but it's true of some people in lots of useful professions.

Re:Yes, why indeed, teach STEM to children?

[LurkerXXX]

Grade school is what those of us in the U.S. usually call grades 1-6 (sometimes 1-5, 6 somtimes gets mixed into middle school, also know as junior high, usually grades 7-8, with 9-12 being high school).

There are folks out there who learned to read and write at home before grade school, so that's not always a use for grade school for some of us.

About Willard Foxton

[TwineLogic]

How do we cut this hostile bugger out of the loop? Can we modify the GPL so that he can't use that software anymore? Please, RMS?

Life skills are never a waste.

[arthurpaliden]

Back in the day, well at lest up to the mid 1970 our schools taught wood working and metal working in grades 6,7, and 8 because these were life skills. You learned how to build and fix things.

Obligatory Bloom County

[ulatekh]

"How would you like to wake up one morning and find your credit rating slashed?"

Seriously...this guy is gonna get hAx0r3d something bad for that bit of mouthing off.

that is why i left the uk

[Anonymous Coward]

the attitudes in that article are very prevalent in the UK, I left 22 years ago, and now live in Canada. Canada and the US do not share this childish prejudice and are as a consequence much more successful societies,

This again?

[dbIII]

If a school subject is to be taught to everyone, it needs to have a vital application in everyday life

That sort of idiocy is why they only taught the girls how to type when I went to school.

Jealousy

[giorgist]

As it works out, the "jocks" end up in jobs that are like filling supermarket bags. The "nerds" not only have amazingly interesting jobs, but in their personal lives actually are the ones that do the extreme sports, the travel, the arts. There is this mindset that people can either be creative or analytical. The reason this idea exists is because most people that think this are neither. So most people read about fashion or follow sport but do nothing in their lives. These people need bread and circuses. The rest Live life with a capital L. Good coders among them explore the world in a badly lit basement if they have to. Let the rest watch fox news upstairs.

He got one thing right

[Krishnoid]

Trying to pretend that coding is the right skill for everyone is utter nonsense – for most people, it’s exponentially less useful than the basic level of IT literacy most people still lack. As far as I’m concerned, this is the real IT crisis that needs addressing.

I expected this year's school leavers, born in 1995, and having never lived without the internet, to be brilliant with computers. Now I know better. Working with them, I've found that the opposite is often true. Many lack basic computer literacy – the “have you tried turning it off and on again?” stuff – because the education system has let them down so badly.

Considering how many programmers fail FizzBuzz, his point about the education system failing people on basic IT literacy is relevant.

Re:Yes, why indeed, teach STEM to children?

[Narcocide]

Yea actually. Everything I needed to learn to type that post I learned either before gradeschool, or on my own in my free time, or later in private courses I paid for out of pocket as an adult. I learned typing playing zork on a commodore 64. Besides all that you evidently missed the clear sarcasm in my statement, evidence that your own trust in your reading comprehension skills and likely whatever else you learned (or thought you learned) in gradeschool is quite misplaced.

Code is running the world

[Kazoo the Clown]

Well, that code controls your car, your TV, all communications, Financial transactions, most military weaponry, prints your newspaper and runs your business. You should be kissing that weird dull coders a**...

Hmmm

[Sulik]

The fewer people know how to code, the more valuable good coders are... Just sayin'

As a programmer...

[duke_cheetah2003]

I agree. I'm a dumb weirdo. Programming is all I know. I have no social skills what so ever, so I agree.

And proud of it!

[Anonymous Coward]

I considered being a newspaper reporter for a while but I know I couldn't cope with that level of ethical and moral responsibility and write what the people want to read at the same time ;)

Completely missing the point

[beaverdownunder]

Learning to code teaches children valuable logic and conceptualisation skills. Algorithms are the most straight-forward and unambiguous way to demonstrate a number of extremely useful real-world concepts.

The intention is not that every child will grow up to be a programmer (although there may be a few prodigies who would have been undiscovered had they not been introduced to coding early.) The intention is that the skills introduced and nurtured by learning to code will help the child in other areas in adolescence and adulthood -- decision making, problem solving, logistics.

These principles can be taught as part of other disciplines, such as mechanics, but coding is far less messy, and requires virtually no resources. You can build an 'engine' without needing oil or gasoline; you can demonstrate interactions without risking chemical accidents; you can 'dissect' an algorithm without needing to purchase hundreds of pickled toads.

To fail to see the advantages in teaching children to code is pure ignorance.

Depends on the type of coding

[Aereus]

I think it really depends on WHAT you're coding. Yes, there are extremely technical and dry programming situations. (Assembly programming, industrial automation, etc) But then you have things related to web application/intranet application design that I consider a far more organic experience. Taking it even further, you get into game design and systems development, which can be fairly artistic in a sense.

As others have mentioned though: The great thing about learning to program, is it's great for teaching logic, problem-solving, etc. At least half my time programming or more is just figuring out how/the best way to even accomplish the goal.

Coding is the Latin of the 21st century

[Max_W]

as it understood all over the flying round rock.

driving metaphore

[Max_W]

A driver studies how car works, what to do in emergency, how to provide first aide, etc. Theoretically it is possible to drive without such a knowledge, but a professional driver does need it,

He's just envious

[greggster]

because wierdos we: get to wear flip-flops at work / free food / company stock / get up after the sun rises / understand how to code / etc..

Access vs. Requirement

[mattington]

There has been some discussion about similar issues here in China; the college entrance exam has recently reduced the total score for English on the test and increased the weight of Chinese. Disregarding the name-calling, I think there is some similarity in the topics.

I support the changes in China simply because I think that most people are wasting their time learning English here. For the small part of the population who ends up using it, it could be very valuable. But for the vast majority, it is a waste of time.

I think the talk about programming is similar, I think what we should offer is access, but that certainly doesn't mean everyone should learn it. In fact, for a vast majority, learning programming will be frustrating and offer very little value to their life. However for those who do use it, learning from a young age and having resources to explore that will be invaluable.

There is a whole other discussion here about what should be the baseline for a well-rounded education. Does some understanding of algorithms play a part of that? I think it should. But do we need to teach everyone programming? Probably not.

Coming from a journalist...

[mwvdlee]

Progammer: sitting behind a computer most part of the day, typing, learning, designing, creating.
Journalist: sitting behind a computer most part of the day, typing, looking up facts, copying.
Troll; sitting behind a computer most part of the day, typing, learning how to piss off people, creating new ways to piss off people.

It's no wonder this journalist turned troll; it's much more interresting work.

Re:Mechanics and Plumbers Are More Valuable Too

[mwvdlee]

A good manager is dumber than his employees; you have to be a pretty bad manager to hire dumb employees.

From exceptionally dull weirdos

[SmallFurryCreature]

Come on, be honest. I have been in software developer for over a decade and I yet got to meet the first normal well rounded human being. And it takes a weirdo to regonize one. How about a lead developer who only whispers? A developer who worked in the server room because he couldn't stand working in the same office with other people? A born again Christian working for a porn company. Female co-workers who complain about sexism in the office then hand me their bra during a company team building excersise to create the longest chain of clothes? Guys which such bitter hatred of women that they resent any female co-workers being hired despite being drowned in work claiming that women are taking mens job when the company has a dozen positions open for years. I am not even talking about the people who can't get in the office before 12 or who have facial ticks or to who the concept of cleaning up their own cups is totally alien. I am good at my job and I enjoy it but lets no pretend your average developer is a normal human being. And to any who protest? Remember, "I think thou does protest to much". The office is a place you go to remind yourself that 99% of humanity should not breed. Or even breath.

My usual reaction to posts like this

[SmallFurryCreature]

Me thinks thou doht protest to much.

Well ...

[cascadingstylesheet]

... there is a kind of coding that can be dumb and mechanical. And naturally, all the finest business methodologies encourage that, so that the lowest cost sweatshop coder can be plugged interchangeably into the spot.

But yeah, it's flamebait. Though how many coders have equally as thoughtlessly trashed the marketing types? When it's not your field, it's easy to misunderstand and denigrate it.

Reflects on the writer

[benjfowler]

Remember that the ruling classes in the UK are wealthy, blonde, blue-blooded, old-money jocks who either work in the City or in "media" (the smart ones), or join the Army (the dumb ones). Typically the entitled tossers who created the 2008 financial crisis through their ego and sense of self-entitlement, and then are outraged that we don't worship them as the John Galt titans they imagine themselves to be.

Feral rich idiots. Treat this story with the distain that it deserves.

Re:Economy in Shitter

[MrKaos]

This is just one more reason these dumpfkofen have an economy worse than the US.

Dummkopfen, sie dummkopf!

(Yes, I'm quite sure I used the wrong second-person pronoun. Y'know, Germany, English used to have more than one of those, too, but we got rid of the extras 'cause they're STUPID! Get with the program, already.)

You're actually using the wrong plural as well, it should be Dummköpfe.

I'm sure we can all appreciate the irony of a German grammar Nazi.

It isn't just about coding...

[dinther]

The resistance to exact sciences has been increasing over the last decades as people become more new age fuzz heads.
Rather then putting in the hard yards yourself, it is far easier to ridicule those that do and feel good.

That is just the thing. People used to say "I think that..."" now they say "I feel that..." A subtle difference, the latter does not have to provide a reason for their argument. It is a feeling after all.

There really is no need among this audience to point out how stupid this is. I blame education and the way it had become a socialist brainwash exercise in nihilist subjects where everyone get's a prize. Especially those that are liked.

Stick with science, resistance will increase but so will your pay check.

There is some truth to it

[msobkow]

Back in university, it was mentioned in one of my classes that there is a 90/10 split between two personality types, and that 90% of programmers fall into the 10%. Ditto engineers, mathematicians, etc.

We are, by definition, weird.

Re:Yes, why indeed, teach STEM to children?

[Bucky24]

Pretty sure OP was being sarcastic...

Does anyone actually remember school?

[rasmusbr]

Does anyone remember how school was?

The teacher that I had from age 10 to 12 was closing in on retirement and had taught thousands of students. She once told me I was one of the 5% (or whatever, can't remember her wording) most talented math students she had had. I dreaded math class. My teacher was not surprised. For all I know most of the other top 5% students dreaded it too.

Don't get me wrong, I loved using math to figure out the answer to interesting questions. I'd do that on a Saturday if I happened to think of something. But that's not math class. Math class is a long march through a problem set that's been designed so that 99% of students will be able to march through 50% of the problems in the designated time. It's a boring, strenuous exercise is drudgery. It's also good for you, of course, because it teaches you about hard intellectual work and about putting in an effort even when you don't really want to. Those are very useful skills and should be taught, in moderation.

So what about programming? Well, programming would basically be a second math class. It would be a set of coding exercises designed so that 99% of students could march through 50% of the exercises in the designated time. You know the nerdy kid who spends his Saturday morning coding? He would probably dread programming class.

Maybe math teachers should be required to teach super basic algorithms like
x=1
x=2*x
x=2*x ...
That might be a useful and interesting break from the march through the problem set.

Teaching basic software engineering to all students? Please don't.

Actually now that I think of it, here is how it would play out: The nerdy kid would solve the coding problems, then he would make several different variations of the solutions be renaming variables and changing the order of some of the lines of code and then he would email different solutions to his classmates (so that it looks like they'd been made by different students) in exchange for less bullying.

Ah the Telegraph

[DrXym]

It's not surprising that the Telegraph has chosen to denigrate software developers. That's all the Telegraph does these days - troll for hits by spouting drivel about science, climate change, immigrants, the EU, and other topics that push buttons in their readers. Invariably these opinion pieces are written from a position of extreme ignorance. Look at James Delingpole and Christopher Booker as prime practitioners of this art but they're not alone.

The best course of action is to treat the Telegraph like the Daily Mail. Assume by default that their opinion on anything is outright wrong or a total fabrication from start to finish to support their agenda. It's easier that way.

Don't worry, this is a paper for twits

[SeanDS]

The Telegraph is a conservative paper that longs for the days of Thatcher's 80s. They are probably still reeling from the removal of Latin and Greek lessons from schools, so any change to the curriculum that involves a subject less than a thousand years old is considered improper and worthy of insult. I wouldn't be too concerned about this article. The people that matter realise how important coding is to the nation, and they don't expect that everyone will be writing their own blogging platforms after a few years of tuition in school. It's about the mindframe that programming forces you into - it's good for problem solving abilities, and ushers in more technically minded youngsters. Win win. Don't listen to the idiots that don't see their own lack of technical competancy as a weakness but rather as a righteous, high brow statement of their upper class status. Look at how they compare coders to plumbers. These are the iProduct users of our time, who need every bit of their technology made ultra-simple due to their own ignorance.

This is excellent..

[Phoeniyx]

We can look forward to another generation of mediocrity from the UK! More job security for the rest of us! Keep it up Telegraph!!

And blogging for a newspaper...

[wonkey_monkey]

...is apparently for obnoxious douchebags.

fwiw

[buddyglass]

I develop software for a living, have two degrees in this stuff, and agree with the idea that for something to be taught as a required subject in school it should be broadly applicable. I'm not sure computer programming qualifies.

Eh...

[Elminster Aumar]

It really depends on the respective persons being viewed.

To commoditize concentration.

[pupsocket]

More most branches of engineering, successful coding reflects the talent-times-concentration of a small team.

The result reflects the intensity and inspiration a small number of people summoned to their minds.

Billing by the hour, paying in salary, creating standard paygrades merely apply a fantasy of process to something that happens in much more interesting form.

It's possible that some of what I've done in my life counts as coding, but I have no experience to match the performances of people I've hired to code. The value of what they deliver exceeds the copyright of a hit song, and so I have tried to get contracts that create a common goal of making something excellent, payable tomorrow if it's done.

I don't recommend this approach. You have no idea what investment bankers will do to kill it.

How quaint!

[UnknownSoldier]

Considering it is named after an obsolete device from last century that computers made obsolete I find the comment to be quaint.

What we are really upset by

[sabbede]

Lets face it, the part that really bothers us all is that he called us DULL.

I think we all realize that we are weirdos. And I think we all revel in that.

But we are far too weird to be dull damnit!

I'm off to Rapture

[Buckles21]

It's opinions like these which make me want to go live in a city under the sea, and see how humanity survives without 'dull weirdos' keeping the lights on.

Well, teading handwriting is a bad idea, too!

[jasonhutchens7173]

Here's my (tongue-in-cheek) response to that: https://medium.com/learn-to-code/34c62f023142

Egos

[Princeofcups]

The day that coders don't believe that they are something special is the day that hell freezes over. Sorry folks, coding is a skill like any other. Maybe it's time to stop belittling the auto mechanics and brick layers out there, and accept that you are comrades in labor. You just don't have to get as dirty.

Meh

[computational super]

Call me an exceptionally dull weirdo all you like, as long as I'm a well-paid exceptionally dull weirdo.

CP Snow, On the Two Cultures

[whitroth]

In the late fifties, well-known essayist CP Snow gave a speech, which he rewrote into an essay, called "On the Two Cultures". The two he was speaking about were the liberal arts and the sciences. One point he made was that he knew a good number of scientists/engineers who could quote Shakespeare chapter and verse... but not a single liberal arts major who could even give the simplified version of the Three Laws of Thermodynamics.

It's only gotten worse. The folks in charge have, overwhelmingly, never taken a hard course in their lives, esp. in science or math. They think handwaving overrides the laws of the universe... and they look at anyone who actually *knows* something, or even is interested in something that's not Approved As Cool by some PR hack, is to be looked down on. They are, of course, the ones who were the "popular kids" in class... and haven't grown at all. The rest of us... four eyes? geeks? wonks? nurds? How many denigrating names have they come up with, and I, for one, am heartily sick of it.

You might notice what the popular kids have done to our economy.....

Oh, and for those who have "reclaimed" geek, sorry, I know where the word comes from: carnival slang, for the usually retarded guy who made his living in the freak show, usually billed as the Wild Man of Borneo or some such, and bit the heads off live chickens (for real). Now, Newt Gingrich, who served his first wife divorce papers while she was in the hospital for chemo, or Ron Paul, who couldn't be bothered to pay his senior campaign staff last year enough, or provide healthcare for them, who let one of his senior staffers *die* because he had no healthcare... they're geeks.

                      mark

"Dull Wierdo Jobs" are the valuable ones

[m6ack]

The thing is, dear author... The ability to automate one's work by computer (scripting, coding, etc.) is now truly an absolute essential if one is to compete in any valuable job today. In the work that I do in device testing. Where we used to do a lot of hands-on work in measuring "stuff" on our devices, now we automate that work. There is also a cascading effect... Such automation gives us reams of data that again must now have some automated method of culling it for more in-depth analysis.

If a person is truly computer illiterate, I don't recommend hiring them at my place of business any more. Additionally, there are people from outside our country that are prepped for this work and will take and "do jobs that natives won’t do" (tilting hat -- slightly askew -- to Dubya). The jobs of the future -- especially the valuable ones -- require computer literacy.

Wait a second...

[rk]

I've been called "dull" by an English guy named "Willard"? The very idea of an English guy named Willard makes me want to take a nap.

Dear Willard,

[OneAhead]

It looks like you just publicly stepped, no, stomped on the big sore toe of a demographic that has the capability of making your online life hell. I hope you thought that one through. Any last words before going off the grid?

I decided to switch majors because of dullness

[Nyder]

I was taking Accounting classes, because I actually sort of found accounting fun, but quickly I realized in the 2nt semester that accounting was fucking boring and dull as all hell. And if I continued down this course, I was going to kill myself before I graduated.

So I swapped to taking computer programming classes, which sucked because they didn't offer C, just Pascal (late 80's, shame on them) and I knew C was the future.

I'm not a dull person. Weird, sure, I can accept that, but I found programming to be challenging and not boring. I've done a lot of work and by far, programming wasn't the dullest or boring (washing dishes, that is boring. Cleaning a fish factory is boring).

But one man's boring is another man's contentment.

Gammas Rule!

[Randym]

For the dull and weird in all of us....

Re: "coders"

[NickGnome]

I'd been doing tech support, programming and sys an work for a couple years before I heard a bodyshopper drop the term "coders". He was very proud of himself, bragging to a contract over-seer, that he did all of the design and assigned small, rote tasks to "coders".
...

I never visited his shop, and have never seen it done that way in any of the outfits I've worked. Sure, we had mathematicians, various kinds of mechanical engineers, electrical/electronics engineers, statisticians... but those were specialties in our collaborations.

Re: weirdos

[NickGnome]

weirdo -- one who is weird, one assigned a task or quest
...

weird -- Middle English wird, werd, from Old English wyrd akin to Old Norse urthr fate (as in required to fulfill a function or complete a quest), Middle English worthen from Old English weorthan to become, weorth worthy, of a specified value akin to Old High German werdan to become and werd worthy, worth... of, relating to, or dealing with fate or the Fates (the Weird Sisters), or the super-natural; magical; unearthly; mysterious; of an extraordinary character; fantastic

Sounds good, to me.

Re: "coders"

[kermidge]

Lucky you.

I've been trying to remember some of the want-ads from late-Sixties into the Seventies. IIRC, this was around the time you started seeing things such as systems analyst, programmer-analyst, but most were for programmer. On the bulk civil service tests where they had, say, levels one through three, in the description for the lowest level they'd say something like 'writes programming code according to [the guy above you] specification' or some such. A friend started there, then worked up to section head about a decade later. I asked him what it was like; he said it was mind-numbing, in addition to the daily quota for number of lines of code. It was considered to be barely up from data entry or keypunch - except managers grudgingly allowed as how one had to think a little bit.

"LET THERE BE LIGHT!"

[bobvious]

Folks who can create worlds in little boxes don't sound too much like a dull weirdos to me... especially if they let me play in their worlds.

The tech of computers not just the code

[rhyous]

My brother built a computer for a guy who just graduated college with a degree in Computer Science. This was back in about 2001. He had dial-up internet and wanted to upgrade to DSL, but he had chosen to get the motherboard without the onboard NIC because it was cheaper. So he needed a network card. I had an extra one, so doing my brother a favor, I took it to him. I handed the NIC to him and he gave me a dear in headlights look and started stammering. I got the pleasure of teaching this Computer Scientist how to install a PCI NIC into his desktop. Such a simple task. Shameful that you can get a degree in computer science without knowing much about computers. I think his degree taught him to write java code and that was pretty much it. Ironically, this person was an "exceptionally dull weirdo" but was exactly the opposite of someone who should become a software developer.

Re:Mechanics and Plumbers Are More Valuable Too

[MooseMiester]

Not at all. Dumb managers hire dumb people because all they care about is not looking bad. Smart managers hire smart people, because they care about results.