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Oracle Shareholders Vote Against Ellison's Compensation Package (Again)

angry tapir writes "A majority of Oracle shareholders have once again voted against the company's executive pay practices, including for CEO Larry Ellison. The vote at Oracle's annual shareholder meeting is nonbinding, and follows complaints from some large shareholders and their representatives who say Ellison is overpaid compared to his peers. Ellison is paid US$1 in salary, receiving the rest of his pay in stock options. In Oracle's past fiscal year, that totaled $76.9 million. Shareholders voted against Oracle's executive pay practices at last year's meeting as well."

50 of 213 comments (clear)

  1. A bunch of spineless wimps... by RocketRabbit · · Score: 2, Insightful

    They know they don't have any power, so they choose to "vote" in a non-binding resolution. Larry must be really scared now!

    The guy built that company up from a two-bit hole in the wall operation into one of the largest computer empires known to man. He could fairly ask for a billion bucks a year as a salary and he would deserve it all!

    I don't like Oracle and think their products are suck-ass bloatware, but Larry Ellison made that company. He should be able to profit from it to his heart's content! Plus he likes to play with toys all the time. Wouldn't you just say "fuck all" and go sailing for a while if you had billions of dollars in net worth?

    1. Re:A bunch of spineless wimps... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There's that word again ... "need". Who made you judge and gets to decide what Mr Larry "needs"?

    2. Re:A bunch of spineless wimps... by Tridus · · Score: 3, Funny

      Oracle's shareholders agree with him. Damn socialist investment bankers!

      --
      -- "So they told me that using the download page to download something was not something they anticipated." - Bill Gates
    3. Re:A bunch of spineless wimps... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Informative

      No, he shouldn't

      Spoken like a true socialist.

      Or, y'know, somebody familiar with the concept of 'property'. Oracle is a publicly traded company (not that this is always a good idea; but they did it), not some sole proprietor outfit. It sold substantial chunks of itself to assorted third parties, so now they get a say. That's about as far from 'socialism' as you can reasonably get.

      It doesn't matter whether or not the claim that "Larry Ellison made that company" is true or not because he doesn't own most of it. He is a major shareholder(a trifle under 25%, I think); but he gets paid as an employee of a company owned by a collection of people, including himself, not because Oracle is his personal candy jar and he can get paid what he likes.

      He's certainly the most identifiable personality; but charisma is not the foundation of property rights...

    4. Re: A bunch of spineless wimps... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Don't bother using logic and legal talk with a true believer in American Capitalism (TM). Every time an economic issue comes up around here some right wing crank will call anything socialism that isn't 'let the rich do anything they want without restriction, and minor facts like how publicly traded companies are owned and governed don't matter at all.

      I think they get paid a quarter per post or something.

    5. Re:A bunch of spineless wimps... by Will.Woodhull · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Is it okay for Ellison to pay income tax on his $1 per year salary, while taking $77 million a year in stock options that won't be taxed until he decides to exercise them? And even then he has all kinds of discretion in how much tax he will pay, since there are all kinds rollover investments, etc, that he can use. The guy is poster brat for the 1%ers. If you are paying USA income tax, he is screwing you over as well as screwing the other shareholders.

      --
      Will
    6. Re: A bunch of spineless wimps... by cyborg_zx · · Score: 2

      Whereas the economic situation in the US is going just swimmingly of course.

    7. Re:A bunch of spineless wimps... by Will.Woodhull · · Score: 4, Informative

      As an employee, he gets paid $1/yr. This is not about what he is doing as an employee.

      This is about what he is doing as a corporate officer in setting company policies that award himself with $77 million/yr. This is about abusing the corporation so he can diddle the taxman (in the USA all those stock options give him an immediate amount of financial clout that he does not have to pay taxes on until he exercises them. Further, his tax rate at that time will depend on exactly how he structures the transactions that exercise those options).

      But the main point is that this corporate officer is twisting company policy to his personal benefit of $77 million/yr and the majority of owners of the company don't like him screwing around with their investment that way.

      --
      Will
    8. Re:A bunch of spineless wimps... by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A socialist would believe that all of the workers who contributed to Oracle's success should be allowed to share in the results. A capitalist would believe that all of the investors whose capital made that success possible should share in that success. There are several terms for someone who thinks that the founder should be able to get all of the benefit because he's rich, but none of them are very polite.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    9. Re:A bunch of spineless wimps... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Oh, I'd be the last to argue that he isn't weaseling around (while the 'incentives alignment' theory of stock options is noble, implementation has... encountered assorted complexities under field conditions, to put it politely).

      My point was merely that (ironically enough), the guy who was decrying 'socialism' was actually using a we-worship-rich-guys version of the 'labor theory of value' argument(a socialist classic), while the person he was arguing against was using the (more common among people who describe themselves as 'socialists'; but theoretically quite similar) 'no one man's labor can possibly be worth 24534x another's!' labor theory of value(also a fairly common, as well as fairly direct, implication of the labor theory of value).

      Had Ellison been a midlevel engineer or something, Mr. Capitalism never would have gone with the 'But without Ellison, PRODUCT X would have crashed and burned! He deserves 200 million if he wants it!' argument. Damn employee can take his salary, and like it, and if he think's he's worth more, he can ask for a raise or man up and start his own company...

      The numbers are bigger (owning a little over 20% of Oracle stock is Not Small); but if you want to be a not-socialist, the CEO is still just an employee, working for the shareholders, and he gets the salary market forces command (Har, har, because that's how executive compensation works... In your dreams), and absolutely fuck-all for having 'made this company'. Even if he made it 100%, he only owns 20-odd%, and works for the people who own the rest.

    10. Re:A bunch of spineless wimps... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So how come larry gets to decide that all the people actually doing the work only gets a 1/1000th (or whatever) of what he gets? You think he is forced to take that money?

    11. Re:A bunch of spineless wimps... by Hentes · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't like Oracle and think their products are suck-ass bloatware, but Larry Ellison made that company.

      And then he sold that company to the shareholders. His profit is the money he got for the shares.

    12. Re:A bunch of spineless wimps... by Ash-Fox · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If you are paying USA income tax, he is screwing you over

      He is complying to the law, like people paying the USA income tax. If the law is unfair, then get the law changed.

      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
    13. Re: A bunch of spineless wimps... by Vintermann · · Score: 2

      Talk faster. Sales tax hits the poor hardest because they have to spend their entire income - locally. The billionaire can invest and salt away and simply purchase his yachts in areas where there isn't a sales tax.

      Sales tax is an extremely regressive tax. It is not a good idea.

      --
      xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
    14. Re: A bunch of spineless wimps... by Ash-Fox · · Score: 2

      In the UK, the VAT is mostly 20% on everything purchased, there are a few exceptions like books and food, where they are simply taxed less or not taxed at all. Additionally, they don't confuse the issues by adding taxes after you have elected to buy something, the price you see on the box is the price you pay.

      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
    15. Re:A bunch of spineless wimps... by erikkemperman · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Obama supporters / communists / progressive liberals (same things)

      As I read your post it is at "-1, Insightful". Next we'll see a "+5, Troll" or something.

      Slashdot is getting more confused by the minute. You clearly have no idea what either word "communist" or "progressive liberal" means if you think they are the same or that a typical Obama supporter is either.

      --
      Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
    16. Re:A bunch of spineless wimps... by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 2

      It's funny because Friedman was far from laissez-faire and believed in central control of the money supply.

      "Central control of the money supply" just means he favored central banks like the Federal Reserve and the ECB, not that he though some government bureaucracy should be in control of everybody's money. Friedman recognized that the free market was not perfect, but he recognized it as the best and most efficient system we have available.

      And it's not "laissez-faire" to think that government has no business decided how much people get paid by private companies. It's just common sense capitalism. Not even a socialist idea, it's something only seen in dictatorships and communism. And Friedman was no Marxist.

      There are plenty of ways to criticize Friedman's ideas, but mischaracterizing his beliefs is wrong.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    17. Re:A bunch of spineless wimps... by h4rr4r · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It is a public company, not a private venture. The owners, the stockholders, should make those decisions.

    18. Re:A bunch of spineless wimps... by ausekilis · · Score: 2

      But the main point is that this corporate officer is twisting company policy to his personal benefit of $77 million/yr and the majority of owners of the company don't like him screwing around with their investment that way.

      What? A CEO abusing the system to get more pay? Say it isn't so. Who would ever do that? Certainly no one as saintly as Steve Jobs?

    19. Re: A bunch of spineless wimps... by h4rr4r · · Score: 2

      He would buy the island outside the USA and the yacht at the island. Thus avoiding all taxation.

      A flat sales tax is a regressive scheme and one in which the rich can avoid nearly all taxation.

    20. Re:A bunch of spineless wimps... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There's that word again ... "need". Who made you judge and gets to decide what Mr Larry "needs"?

      Don't get all pedantic. "Nobody needs all that money" is in the sense of the law of diminishing returns. Once you've got $20B, does one more billion either way have any discernible impact on lifestyle, behavior, or provision for progeny? Does the cash still represent the same reward for performance as to us mere mortals?

      As to who gets to decide what Larry "needs," I'd say it's probably the investors who put up the capital to bankroll his little operation. They're the ones who own Oracle, and last I heard, a company's owners have the privilege of setting employee compensation.

      No question, the guy's done great things, but a company is a team effort. Is his contribution, out there on a catamaran in the Bay, really more than 1000 of the architects actually making Oracle the product it is? Or more than 2000 of the people explaining in one-on-one conversations just exactly what makes it worth so damn much money? Oracle's owners have apparently come to the conclusion that they're not getting their money's worth out of Mr Ellison.

    21. Re:A bunch of spineless wimps... by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Nobody needs that much cash, and nobody deserves that much cash. It's not like he did everything himself.

      First, as long as he's spending it in volume, no one should care. The issue with wealthy people is they like to collect it and hold on to it and be on boards of directors to ensure they never lose it. If he's blowing it on islands and boats and fast cars, he's a great contributor. His money is up for grabs to anyone who wants to work for it. This is a great situation.

      Second, we're not talking about taking his compensation and giving it to employees. We're talking about the shareholders not liking how much of the profits HE is getting. Shareholders are always the least valuable contibutors to any company. They are parasites, parasites with control, but parasites. Employees of a company are perfectly ok with 0 profit: salaries are paid. But investors are not happy with that, they will cut heads and salaries as much as possible to maximize that profit number. Taking money away from them, goes back to my first point: it's a good thing when the person doing the taking is spending it.

      Thirdly, if people like him do not exist, then no one will try. Ellison, Gates, Jobs all exist as the motivator for business types to do something other than drink and screw. As role models go, he's doing fine.

    22. Re:A bunch of spineless wimps... by Xicor · · Score: 2

      capitalism. while i agree with you that he probably doesnt earn 77million dollars a year... he also probably doesnt earn anywhere near close to that. that being said, capitalism dictates that the people at the top make all the money.

    23. Re:A bunch of spineless wimps... by BradMajors · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Capital gains are taxed at a much lower rate than that on salaries.

    24. Re:A bunch of spineless wimps... by microbox · · Score: 2

      If the law is unfair, then get the law changed.

      With the current political climate: good luck with that. You have the "JOB CREATOR" defenders (sorry, I meant FREEDOM) who will do everything they can to give tax breaks to the very rich, and cry about how the media is just biased against them, and that everyone should pay less tax anyway, because tax cuts just magically pay for themselves in hughly unrealistic economic growth that is just waiting to explode when the government just shuts down the IRS.

      Then you get a bunch of billionaires running "grassroots" conservative websites, encouraging alternative realities, to gum up government so they can continue to underpay and pollute, and the party faithful will tear around the country claiming to be victims of tyranny, and for some reason they think they are rebels.

      As a conservative, I support tax reform, and I appreciate that most liberals want a fairer and simpler tax system. The political incentives are set for the GOP to simply cry about tyranny whilst fighting for Larry Ellison's carried interest tax break.

      --

      Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
    25. Re:A bunch of spineless wimps... by SeattleGameboy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It gets worse. Larry BORROWS against his stock option so that he does not even have to pay for the 15% tax. This is while he spends hundreds of millions on a yacht race. There is a reason why Larry is the prime candidate for the biggest a-hole in the world.

    26. Re: A bunch of spineless wimps... by 0123456 · · Score: 2

      Additionally, they don't confuse the issues by adding taxes after you have elected to buy something, the price you see on the box is the price you pay.

      That is 'confusing the issue', because people don't realize how much tax they're paying on everything they buy.

    27. Re:A bunch of spineless wimps... by HornWumpus · · Score: 2

      Near monopoly? In what?

      There are many other competing relational databases (MS-SQL, DB2, Postgres etc etc).

      There are many competing ERP suckblobs (SAP etc).

      Even Oracle marketing has peers. Though many are in prison.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    28. Re: A bunch of spineless wimps... by HornWumpus · · Score: 2

      As opposed to eurotrash who 'know America' because they've been to ether LA or NY.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  2. Why? by rsmith-mac · · Score: 2, Interesting

    While TFA provides a good summary of the vote, it does a terrible reason of explaining why the shareholders voted as they did.

    So why are the shareholders against Larry's compensation package? The use of stock options means that Larry only gets paid if the company is doing well; or rather more specifically if the company's shares are doing well, which is all the shareholders are going to care about in the first place. At 4.6B shares the company is big enough that Larry's compensation isn't going to meaningfully dilute the value of shares. And switching to traditional compensation packages would eat into Oracle's profits.

    What am I missing here? For a company that's doing well, this seems like the perfect way to pay Larry. What is it the shareholders would rather do, and why would it be any better?

    1. Re:Why? by smittyoneeach · · Score: 2

      More importantly, if companies don't launder the money through the CEO, how will the the bicycle of political influence be pedaled?

      --
      Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
    2. Re:Why? by fatphil · · Score: 2

      > And switching to traditional compensation packages would eat into Oracle's profits.

      Only if he were to get a nett 76 million via that mechanism. Maybe the shareholders think that he doesn't deserve to be compensated anything like that amount?

      --
      Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
    3. Re:Why? by hairyfish · · Score: 4, Funny

      The bicycle of political influence? You really just said that?

    4. Re:Why? by TFAFalcon · · Score: 2

      For every stock that he gets, the value of stockholder stocks is diluted - they own a lesser % of the company. Why shouldn't they complain about that?

      If stock options were 'free' for the stockholders, then why doesn't every worker get a few million dollar's worth of them?

    5. Re:Why? by Luckyo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      He's good, but not worth the pay he's receiving.

      Just because plumber does a good job, doesn't mean he's worth tens of millions a year. Just because CEO does a good job, doesn't mean that he's worth 76.9 million USD.

    6. Re:Why? by Richard_at_work · · Score: 2

      That depends on how the stock is issued - from a non-issued pool (has 100% of Oracle shares already been issued publicly, or did the company retain a pool) or through a new issue? If the former, no dilution happens.

    7. Re:Why? by mysidia · · Score: 2

      The use of stock options means that Larry only gets paid if the company is doing well; or rather more specifically if the company's shares are doing well

      Well exactly... the company doesn't have to do well in the long term Just its shares. Providing an executive options, means that the exec is going to be focused on trying to maximize short term share price increase, at the potential cost of tens of billions in long-term opportunity, for the company.

      And switching to traditional compensation packages would eat into Oracle's profits.

      Using the options-based compensation eats into shareholder's equity interests, with regards to the company's current profit and future profit, forever.

    8. Re:Why? by adolf · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Your analogy is backwards.

      Most plumbers don't work for, much less run, companies that have annual revenue measured in billions of dollars.

      Indeed, I'd wager that most plumbers take home a far greater share (on a percentage basis) of the company's revenue than does Ellison.

      One could draw from this the conclusion that Ellison is underpaid compared to most plumbers, but that would be absurd.

      Hence, your analogy is useless.

    9. Re:Why? by Required+Snark · · Score: 5, Informative
      Right. I don't know about Ellison specifically, but the shares are usually granted at a discount, so there is a significant boost in real value. Plus there are tax advantages that he accrues, so he is effectively getting an even larger compensation package.

      Plus it's not Ellison's company, it's the shareholders company. If shareholders think he is overpaid that should have some impact. If he disagrees, he can just quit, right? (That's the bullshit line that used to justify treating workers like shit, so it feels really good to use on a prick like Ellison.)

      What this really shows is that corporate governance is broken. The board doesn't work for the shareholders, they are at the beck and call of the CEO. He puts them on the board, they make huge amounts for the little work they do, and so they do whatever the CEO wants. They are a rubber stamp. This is a lot closer to feudalism then real capitalism. The workers are serfs, the shareholders are not much better off, and the lords who run the show take everything they can lay their hands on. Welcome to non-capitalist, not a democracy 21st America.

      --
      Why is Snark Required?
    10. Re:Why? by locofungus · · Score: 2

      What am I missing here? For a company that's doing well, this seems like the perfect way to pay Larry.

      His share options are almost certainly offered way below par.

      If the shares are $33 and he gets 2M @ $3 then that's a theoretical gain of $60M when he exercises.

      A 10% fall in the value of the company means he "only" gets $54M instead - while the investors who bought $2M at $33 lose $6M

      I'm not 100% sure of the UK regulations but I think for share options schemes of this size (there are tax exemptions for some cases but I think the cap is £30000) you would be taxed as income on the gain when you exercised the options. (For gains of this size, 50% rather than 28% CGT)

      For the US I think it's different and it's a way of avoiding income tax with fairly minimal risk.

      The UK sees share option schemes like this as just another form of income, albeit deferred and not guaranteed - so the UK defers the income tax to the point where the gain is actually made.

      --
      God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = -@B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light.
    11. Re:Why? by Richard_at_work · · Score: 2

      If they come from a company retained pool, that company retained pool would be an asset on the companies balance sheet. So taking it from there lowers the company's value by 76M

      From the Oracle financial report, last page:

      Stock-based compensation expenses: We have excluded the effect of stock-based compensation expenses from our non-GAAP
      operating expenses and net income measures. Although stock-based compensation is a key incentive offered to our employees, and we
      believe such compensation contributed to the revenues earned during the periods presented and also believe it will contribute to the
      generation of future period revenues, we continue to evaluate our business performance excluding stock-based compensation expenses.
      Stock-based compensation expenses will recur in future periods

      http://www.oracle.com/us/corporate/investor-relations/financials/q1fy14-detailed-financials-2016793.pdf

      However, they are detailed in the Stock Holding Pattern filings, which show as of September 2013 74.98% of the company is held by the company, and 25.02% of the company is held publicly (which is an increase of 0.01 percentage points since June 2013).

      http://www.oracle.com/us/industries/financial-services/share-holding-pattern-sep2013-2031438.pdf

    12. Re:Why? by tgd · · Score: 2

      Although the shareholders have the right to sell their shares, but obviously they don't want to do that.

      Absolutely. Ellison's pay is the board of directors responsibility and call to make, not the shareholders. They can vote for the board members they want to represent them, and vote with their wallet if they don't like it. That's how the market works.

      The irony is, of course, that the people complaining about it *wouldn't* sell their shares over it, because they're making too much money on it.

    13. Re: Why? by MysteriousPreacher · · Score: 2

      It's a good metaphor, but really not sufficient. I want to know how the kittens of deferred tax liabilities will be weaned?

      --
      -- Using the preview button since 2005
  3. Two Presidents by bobthesungeek76036 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I've always wondered why Oracle has two presidents as well. Having worked for the Big-O I can atest that it is two companies in one. Sales is just an enabler for the real money maker: support and services. So even though Oracle has two presidents (Mark Hurd - sales, Safra Catz - services), there's only one big dog on the porch and believe me it's Safra...

    --
    Karma: Bad
    1. Re:Two Presidents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      So Hurd isn't that important? I Gnu it!

  4. Re: If they really meant it, they'd sell their sto by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If they had a binding referendum, people might get the idea that shareholders own the company or something. We can't have that. They might want to do stuff that billionaires don't like.

  5. Somewhat disappointed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Maybe /. has grown up, or is it just me, but...

    Not even a single joke about shareholders shocked by the size of Larry's packgage? How come?

  6. Re:Stock options are the right way to pay CEOs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

    Maybe. But it depends on the "discount" the options are given. If I get 2 million shares, currently priced at $33, for $3 a piece, I can nearly bankrupt the company and walk away with a salary that in one year outranks any member of the middle-class's lifetime earnings. Furthermore, your one year holding scheme only means that I now take my stock-option, wait around a year, then pump up the 5th quarter, dump my options, and still make a pretty penny after the stock crashes and I exercise my options on the flailing stock the next year.

    This is where you're falling short. The problem is not paying a CEO purely in stock options. The problem is that the CEO's have restructured it so that there's no longer an incentive to build a long term, stable plan for a company. Also, here in the US, stock options are an exceptionally clever way to get at minimum an awesome discount on your taxes and at best no taxes at all should you structure the transactions correctly under the right circumstances.

    Because I'm sure we'll differ on the opinion of taxes and the "value of labor" for a CEO, I'll skip that and just focus on where we seem to both be red-blooded American-style Capitalists: fiscally incentivizing your CEO to do an exceptional job. In case you decide to go off on a tangent, the amounts here are merely for demonstration. Feel free to sub in $10 million or whatever amount you feel is necessary. I'm not arguing scale here, just mechanics.

    I'm all for stock options. Oh look you, you're a CEO. I narrowly discount some shares of stock and effectively say, "You get $500,000 a year in 10% discounted stock options. The price is locked in at 10% off the price at the beginning of the fiscal year. At the end of the year, the option is exercised and you get actual shares of stock."

    This has a two fold effect. In essence, if your CEO for whatever reason doesn't have a stash of cash to make it until he has actual stock to sale, he can use the options as collateral and get a line of credit. So you've sort-of paid up front and a fiscally responsible adult (is your CEO fiscally responsible?) will know how to make those options work for her in the interim.

    This provides the incentive. If the stock tanks, they get substantially less money than $500,000 that year. If the stock soars, you get a good net-gain and an even larger discount in absolute terms (hence an even larger net-gain) for the next year.

    You've paid in stock so the government is no longer interested in closing your tax loopholes and exempting your options from your cushy cap-gains rate because they realize a more steady stream of revenue this way. If the CEO pumps up your company and sells out at the end of the year, your board of investors should do a better job finding a CEO who is going to stick around for a while. Meanwhile, you're probably in a better position to attract a better CEO who can get the ship righted before the raze-and-burn tactics of the previous CEO festers.

  7. Finally! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    I don't like Oracle and think their products are suck-ass bloatware, but Larry Ellison made that company.

    And then he sold that company to the shareholders. His profit is the money he got for the shares.

    Finally, someone who understands!

    And it's sad that the above comments turned it into a Capitalist/Socialist thing.

    What we're seeing is your typical corporate CEO strategy - outlandish pay for mediocre performance. And I think that's the REAL issue here.

    And folks, remember stock options DO NOT GET TAXED LIKE REGULAR INCOME. So, he's paying close to zero tax on this and differing gains - maybe forever by moving them offshore. This billionaire is getting a sweet sweet deal on the middle class' back.

    Go look at your pay stubs or at at that check you send to the IRS every quarter my fellow small businessmen and ask yourself, "Why am I not getting that same deal?"

  8. $78.9 million? by coofercat · · Score: 2

    Pff! I wouldn't get out of bed for that. No wonder they're complaining it's not enough ;-)