Slashdot Mirror
Woman Facing $3,500 Fine For Posting Online Review
sabri writes "Jen Palmer tried to order something from kleargear.com, some sort of cheap ThinkGeek clone. The merchandise never arrived and she wrote a review on ripoffreport.com. Now, kleargear.com is reporting her to credit agencies and sending collectors to fetch $3,500 as part of a clause which did not exist at the alleged time of purchase. 'By email, a person who did not identify him or herself defended the $3500 charge referring again to Kleargear.com's terms of sale. As for Jen being threatened — remove the post or face a fine — the company said that was not blackmail but rather a, "diligent effort to help them avoid [the fine]."' The terms and conditions shouldn't even apply, since the sales transaction was never completed."
Oh Slashdot - you're so edgy. Calm down.
Sent from my ENIAC
That's a good way to lose business.
can't just she go to court for harassment and get rich?
kleargear will soon discover how the internet works.
-- Will program for bandwidth
All this diligent effort to quash her negative review or help them avoid supposed fines - too bad none of that effort couldn't be put to satisfying the customer in the first place or correct their mistake.
Never ever buy anything from kleargear.com. They might ruin your credit for it.
In fact... lets just pop that right into the hosts file right now. Just in case i forget.
Just another shady fly by nite rip off site. Lets get this woman some donations so she can sue the shit out of them.
blacklisting those punks.
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
First, it's not clear a contract was established. And even if it was, unilateral changes generally are unenforceable. And even if it were there when the attempted purchase was attempted, this is an unconscionable contract clause, against public policy (1st amendment, etc) and should be thrown out.
This person's best bet is to dispute the credit reports, counter sue for whatever they can think of to recover legal fees.
If it were me, I'd just send them a letter telling them to go F themselves and I'll see you in court. Bring it. My lawyer, however, would likely wish that I not do that.
Of course, based on the fact that their e-commerce portal looks like something out of 1998, I'd guess that they're not the most heavily-trafficked site.
streisand effect ... Streisand Effect ... STREISAND EFFECT... HOOOO!!!
Which is the whole reason why there's a bad review. Seems Kleargear would want to fix that transaction before spending buttloads on dubious litigation, and win the customer back. But they'll discover how both the Internet AND retail business works soon.
Laughter is the Spackle of the Soul.
Since this is baiting slashdot lawyering, I'll say that they are generally causing her grave stress and have fraudulently claimed debts against her. So I believe she and some lucky lawyer will be able to split the houses of the owners of the site within a few months. That is if they are smart enough to settle and not face felony charges that she can easily bring plus win a lawsuit or two.
You can also reach us by phone or snail mail at:
You should give them a call, let them know what you think.
KLEARGEAR.COM
2885 Sanford Ave SW Suite #19886
Grandville, MI 49418
Se Habla Español
Phone (866) 598-4296
Clearly ThinkGeek has better advertising since I've never heard of DX.com
Occasionally living proof of the Ballmer peak.
Recently I purchased several items from KlearGear.com. Based on their purchase agreement, I can not post negative comments on the Internet about my experience. With that in mind, here is my KlearGear.com review;
" --- "
Thank you,
My studio - www.graylands.ca
for not buying anything at kleargear.com. Thanks!
If it were in any way legal or enforceable it would be in ToS everywhere.
The Streisand effect in full swing: http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/specific_search/kleargear
"We didn't murder that guy. We made a diligent effort to help them avoid a worse fate"
I bet whoever made that statement from Kleargear thinks they're really clever. Once this goes in front of a judge they'll quickly learn - not so much.
dx.com is DealExtreme. Say what you will about ThinkGeek's prices, when you order something from there it ships promptly and ends up at your door shortly thereafter. They also have good customer service. DealExtreme on the other hand has a somewhat more challenged reputation.
I read the internet for the articles.
She needs to go to http://cfpb.gov/ right away and report this. It'll come off her credit reports ~30 days or so later. The Consumer Financial Protection Bureau was setup for exactly this kind of thing.
Fuck Ajit Pai
Please, oh please(!), try this shit with me. I really need the money and wiping you off the internet would not only be profitable, but highly satisfying as well. Love, AC
And those of us with real names and addresses should admit that we do not actually have the resources to fight a court battle with a company, regardless of how right we might be.
If everything is as described, sure, the woman has been mistreated. But on the other hand, she's using Ripoff Report. Slashdot has done an article about a case involving Ripoff Report before, and they themselves absolutely refuse to remove even false information, and then charge people money to dispute it. It's at least as bad as the company she's fighting.
Look it up. Here, I'll help you. Read the very links described here: "She contacted Ripoffreport.com to ask that the post be removed but Ripoffreport.com won't let her without paying $2000 she says."
Or go read some of the comments in the earlier article describing how Ripoff Report behaves. http://yro.slashdot.org/story/10/12/29/1929228/court-rules-website-doesnt-have-to-remove-defamatory-comments
Such abusive actions on the part of a merchant whereby they involve credit agencies could violate the Fair Credit Reporting Act. Statutory and punitive penalties may apply. It all depends on the appropriate characterization of the customer/merchant relationship, if the merchant is considered a creditor, and the permissibility of the merchant filing a report to the credit bureaus under the circumstances.
Don't forget an earlier story where a court ruled that Zappos Terms of Service Agreement was invalid because it "didn't force customers to click through to it."
The Streisand Effect is not a rule. It's a rarity. For every story that gets attention this way, there are millions that do not.
When I see a post on Slashdot about censorship backfiring, without fail, someone will blurt out "Streisand Effect" as if it is an inevitable thing that happens when censorship occurs on the Internet.
The trouble here is that assuming this is a rule and not a rare edge case brings with it the danger of promoting the idea that censorship is not able to occur on the Internet. ...as if it is inherently censor-proof. The sad thing is, censorship is very real. The stories that allow us to cry "ha ha Streisand Effect" are the exception. They are interesting and attention worthy, or simply lucky.
I'm glad when the effect occurs, but don't kid yourself.
A fine is a monetary penalty assessed by a legitimate authority. What clear gear is threatening to do is to commit fraud against the customer they failed to serve.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
ripoffreport is known to be a scam. people post complaints and then you get charged to have them removed. They must be selling your IP address or something to the vendor. Its the only way she can get found out.
note to self: use a proxy whenever I post complaints about a company online so they can't find me. done.
Sounds like someone needs to make a few calls and see if they have Battletoads in stock
Am I the only one wondering how in the fuck some random company was able to just make up a charge out of thin air and then destroy her credit over it?
In Soviet Russia, dot slashes YOU!
While I have absolutely no sympathy for all the hate that the keangear asshats will get from this, I just wish that ripoffreport.com would get their share of it. Did you know that if you pay them money, they will happily turn all the negative reports about your business into positive? They call it "Corporate Advocacy Program", but the real name of it should be "blackmail and extortion". Absolutely anyone can post anything about any business, be it true or a complete lie, and the business owner has absolutely no way for defending themselves. Except if you pay ripoffreport.com a few hundred bucks and then all negative reports go away. And they even claim that they will help place the newly positive reviews "at the top of search engines", whatever the hell that means. See, they do it to benefit the consumer and to assure the complete satisfaction, and not at all to blackmail small businesses and extort money from them:
http://www.ripoffreport.com/CorporateAdvocacyProgram/Change-Report-From-Negative-To-Positive.aspx
I do know a lawyer friend who's looking for some good unusual marketing...
You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
Their phone number is (866) 598-4296. They will pay for the call for you to call them and tell them what you think.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
Do you realize that credit reporting agencies are 'regulated' and that means absolutely nothing?
All that smoke and mirrors they put out about checking your credit report, and fixing errors, doesn't really happen. It is there ONLY so the consumer thinks credit reporting is fair. The fact is the credit reporting agency 1) makes more money from you 2) ignores your request to fix items. Why should they care? You CAN NOT sue them. Bet you didn't know that did you? Only a state's attorney Generals can sue a credit reporting agency. That is part of the deal they got to support fair credit laws in the first place. Like just about everything else in this country lately, they had a huge lobbying effort to exclude themselves from lawsuits, took all your representatives to steak and lobster dinner, and called it something that sounded like it was made to protect the consumer. IT IS NOT!
If you go through the trouble of writing them to correct something, they just send you a generic letter; "We do not understand your request." Since you can not sue, that is the end of it.
So the root of this problem is both the slimey business, but as much the slimey credit reporting agencies that make it a viable business model. Experian will even sell social securrity numbers to crooks now to make money;
http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/10/25/experian_data_broker_social_security_numbers_sold_to_identity_thieves.html
slashdot troll = you make a compelling argument I do not like the implications of.
Some nobody of a company wants to assess an illegal fine and reports it's non-payment and the agencies automatically accept it as fact and ding her credit report? Libel also includes untrue things you print with reckless disregard for the truth, not just things you know are untrue.
I ordered hundreds of dollars of equipment from dx.com/dealextreme.com over the years.
The absolute worst things that's happened to me is that something was out of stock, and they credited me for my order.
Say what you want about ordering things on the slow boat from China, but DX, overall, has pretty good customer service -- especially for a company that'll send you a $2.97 butane torch (filled with butane!) from Asia, shipping included.
http://dx.com/p/jet-1300-c-butane-lighter-1320
My cigars thank them.
only a COURT OF LAW has the legal authority to impose a "fine". What this is, is tantamount to extortion. If she paid money (ie it left her account), and didn't receive the goods, then she has every fucking right to complain! My advice (IAAL, IANYL): take this upstart company to the fucking cleaners in a private criminal prosecution. Obtain the judgement in favour (this is open and fucking shut!) and use that to sue for punitive damages (NO LIMIT!)
Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
Only the government can punish people. Civil courts strike down punitive (punishing) clauses in contracts. In court, it would be unenforceable. Also violates her 1st Amendment rights. kleargear's case has humiliating fail written all over it.
On the other hand, if the suit is clearly profitable once you win, any reasonably smart lawyer will do it for you without any previous payment in exchange of a good percentage of the loot, I mean, the punitive damages... ;-)
If the money is good, the lawyer can even pay any fees for you (again, in exchange of a good percentage of the earnings).
Lisias@Earth.SolarSystem.OrionArm.MilkyWay.Local.Virgo.Universe.org
ALL TV infomercials are ripoffs. ALL telemarketers are ripoffs and ALL email marketing are ripoffs.
I think I can't but agree :(
A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
I used to purchase a bunch of stuff from DX. I quit because their shipping was frequently so slow that I didn't need what was ordered by the time it got here. My longest wait was 4 months for items that said they were in stock the entire 4 months. Everything I ordered did come in. It just took forever to get here.
They're trying to enforce "a clause which did not exist at the alleged time of purchase" on a "transaction was never completed"?
That sounds pretty close to fraud.
And people who don't understand their consumer rights and the point of a contract being "fair" in law often cave because they are told by the other party (who has an interest in lying) that there's nothing they can do about it.
Hint: You probably bought on credit card. You report it. If the credit card company pulls that shit, you take them to court.
Sure, it's a hassle, but you're in the right legally to stomp on that kind of shit.
Crush that website w.o. mercy. Kill them all.
I ordered hundreds of dollars of equipment from dx.com/dealextreme.com over the years.
The absolute worst things that's happened to me is that something was out of stock, and they credited me for my order.
Say what you want about ordering things on the slow boat from China, but DX, overall, has pretty good customer service -- especially for a company that'll send you a $2.97 butane torch (filled with butane!) from Asia, shipping included.
http://dx.com/p/jet-1300-c-butane-lighter-1320
My cigars thank them.
I really like how Lighters are listed in the Toy section.
This is clearly illegal.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
Editors, would you exercise some kind of fucking diligence here?
Ripoffreport is a random soundboard for anything. For example: a search for the word "meth":
Jenny muniz Jenevieve muniz Crystal meth addict. thief. con. burnt down her mothers house. las vegas Nevada
Apple Unlimited owned by Dave Apple Manipulative crystal meth addict sexually harasses employees and takes advantage of employees...and gets away with it Virginia Beach Virginia
FRANKIE LEE DEAVER DEAVER, FRANKIE LEE SCAM ARTIST !!! METH HEAD !!!! ADDICT !!!! CHRONIC JAILBIRD !!!! ANDERSON Missouri
Follow the link to kutv. It mentions Ripoffreport asking a 2000 dollar fee to remove her feedback? An important point missing from the summary. Is this true? If so, why is this mentioned but not mentioned in Techdirt's article or otherwise followed up?
Isn't there a legitimate mechanism to be used when Kleargear, a company that tries too hard to be geeky, is alleged to lie to credit agencies? Kleargear seems to be a bit iffy. They plaster their site in "verified by x" badges. Buysafe? What the fuck is that? I don't know, but for some reason I'm reassured that this hitherto unknown company guarantees this site is inspected and monitored. They have a TRUSTe seal! Wow, they've promised to abide by security policies that'll most likely never be inspected. TRUSTe means fuck all positive. Oh, but wait. They carry a badge from inc.com! Meh, it's the LinkedIn of companies. I'm a professor at MIT, and I have a 14" dick. If you believe that then TRUSTe probably means something to you.
tl;dr: Kleargear is at best a company that protests far too much. Ripoffreport is as good a source of information as YouTube comments. Slashdot editors don't bother following any links,and Slashdot is somewhere between The Weekly World News and Heat magazine.
-- Using the preview button since 2005
I just loved this part of the original article:
"But Jen says she was not always so defiant. After receiving the threat she says she was terrified. She contacted Ripoffreport.com to ask that the post be removed but Ripoffreport.com won't let her without paying $2000 she says."
Someone hurry up and write a ripoff report at rippoffreport.com!
In UK, Distance Selling law stipulates that the time period for return begins when you receive the item, not when they declare it shipped.
"Wait. Something's happening. It's opening up! My God, it's full of apricots!"
shares an address with the address on Kleargear.com, so it would be simple to put her name on their site. Google Maps for that address doesn't list Kleargear as being there at all. Nice....
The credit agencies are going to hit the roof. They are regulated. Unilateral debts which is a fine, are clear cut violations of their terms of service. They are definitely going to revoke kleargear.com's membership and may go much further than that.
I've worked towards on on-and-off. Sort of like a better email but for any sort of data...
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
As long as you satisfy all of the natural instincts that your cat has
My natural instincts tell me that bacon slathered in gravy and topped with cheese is delicious. My natural instinct says "I'd hit it" about eight times a day. My natural instinct is to punch that asshole square in the mouth.
I have a brain capable of rational thought, though, so I eat vegetables, sleep with my wife, and refrain from hitting people.
I hope you're not so cruel as indulge all of your cat's natural instincts.
"attempting to obtain money upon a false and fraudulent pretense", an offence under the criminal code, 380(1)(a), 6 month to 2 years, or just possibly extortion, 253(1.3), good for 14 years. Consult a detective, not a lawyer.
The burden of proof is higher than a suit, but the consequences for the criminal are much more appropriate (:-))
--dave
davecb@spamcop.net
How do you report someone to the credit bureaus without a ssn?
Did they open a line of credit with this website? Otherwise how did they get this lady's ssn?
Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
From a PR puff piece a year or so ago. http://www.prweb.com/releases/2012/4/prweb9444835.htm
So the President of the company is "Lee Gersten".
The pr guy on the puff piece is Rob Key pr@kleargear.com .
...or being allowed to file [presumably false] credit reports. Likewise, need small claims court action on false credit reports.
Speak for yourself, I only light my cigars with whale oil.
http://www.kleargear.com/complaint-grenade-cup-12716.html
Failure to deliver is breach of contract.
Thus... At the time of the bad review I cannot believe
the contract was in effect especially if there was
communication with customer service to correct
the problem.
The Contract specifies a penalty so four times
that penalty plus legal fees.
Good thing I am not an attorney.
Defamation of character and anything else that
results from them contacting credit companies
and attempting to attach you banking.
Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.