BBC: Amazon Workers Face "Increased Risk of Mental Illness"

Rambo Tribble writes "The BBC is reporting that an investigation into a UK-based Amazon facility has uncovered conditions that experts believe foster mental illness. At the root of the problem seems to be unreasonable performance expectations combined with a fundamentally dehumanizing environment. From the article: 'Amazon said that official safety inspections had not raised any concerns and that an independent expert appointed by the company advised that the picking job is "similar to jobs in many other industries and does not increase the risk of mental and physical illness."'"

Comments

Stick your timers up your ass

[Anonymous Coward]

You have 30 seconds to comply

Re: Stick your timers up your ass

[Anonymous Coward]

Look up the story on the web called "manna" this eerily sounds just like it.

"similar to"

[i kan reed]

Working at hopelessly automated amazon warehouses where you are treated as a physical automaton with no free will is "similar to" working in a traditional warehouse in the same way ozone is "similar to" O2. It's made of roughly the same thing, but isn't exactly good for you.

Re:"similar to"

[jcoy42]

I would argue that very few jobs are actually "good" for you.

But we can't all run around naked in the forest eating nuts and berries.

Quite the conundrum.

Re:"similar to"

[Mr D from 63]

Call me back when they find evidence of actual people with actual mental illness which is actually attributable to the job. Until then its just finger pointing at a big target.

What prompted this investigation? Sounds like a news crew just looking for a story they can call big.

Re:"similar to"

[i kan reed]

That's reasonable to consider, but strong enough correlations say something. Not necessarily causation, but implies a relationship of some kind. Thankfully us plebs are spared the actual p values to make a judgement for ourselves.

Re:"similar to"

[SimonTheSoundMan]

I'm amazed that Amazon use human beings as pickers. I'm surprised it is not all automated.

Take Ocado as an example. 9 people work in each warehouse that is just as big as Amazons that employ thousands in each one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKpyPO76yZ4

Re:"similar to"

[Anonymous Coward]

Occasionally one must have a Mountain Dew.

Re:"similar to"

[K. S. Kyosuke]

Call me back when they find evidence of actual people with actual mental illness which is actually attributable to the job.

What, you're asking for causal attribution in individuals? You're aware that there are huge swathes of medical science where you simply won't get any? Unless you're willing to undergo a premature autopsy, that is. It's quite disingenuous to dismiss the study results for this reason alone.

Re:"similar to"

[war4peace]

Bullshit!
I've done jobs worse than that and I didn't go crazy! GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHAHAHAAAAAAHHHH!
*runs away, hands flailing*

Re:"similar to"

[i kan reed]

They ship all sorts of unwieldy and unusual things. Even a perfectly automated warehouse would need "problem solvers."

Re:"similar to"

[Anonymous Coward]

I worked in a couple of warehouses around 10 years ago, and the work then was certainly "similar" to this description. Even without electronic automation most warehouse jobs are repetitive, it is the nature of menial labor. Imagine a never ending series of boxes coming down a conveyor belt, which must be read and sorted based on destination, then lifted and stacked on the appropriate pallet. For 9 hours, with a 1 hour lunch. It was hard, but it made me in the best shape of my life. It was actually not terribly mentally crushing either, at least nobody was calling me at 4 am on a Saturday to come in to fix the office VPN. I since worked office jobs with passive aggressive bosses that were much more deleterious to my physical and mental health than warehousing. The Amazon warehouse are possibly worse than most, but they honestly sound like par for the course. I worked overnights at a convenience store one summer and that was far more dangerous.

Re:"similar to"

[geek]

Call me back when they find evidence of actual people with actual mental illness which is actually attributable to the job.

What, you're asking for causal attribution in individuals? You're aware that there are huge swathes of medical science where you simply won't get any? Unless you're willing to undergo a premature autopsy, that is. It's quite disingenuous to dismiss the study results for this reason alone.

He isn't talking about "huge swathes of medical science," he's talking about one very narrow one where its very possible and in fact reasonable to get a diagnosis. Since there hasn't been one, it's also reasonable to deduce that the whole thing is a money grab. Not exactly hard to deduce either considering Amazon employees are striking right now in Germany (soon other places in Europe) for higher pay.

Re:"similar to"

[i kan reed]

There are differences. For example, Amazon employees face a zero tolerance policy to talking to each other during work hours. Speak to anyone, lose your job. Now while I'm anti-social as all hell, humans in general aren't, and that's a formula for stress.

Re:"similar to"

[i kan reed]

I know this post is 100% intended as humor, but I'd like to point out that "bad" as in unpleasant, and "bad" as in harmful to mental health aren't necessarily the same.

Re:"similar to"

[cusco]

They're working on that, but the system seems to have trouble with the variety of types of items. Think about the necessity of adapting to handle an iPad, a DVD, a dead-tree bookshelf, and a stuffed platypus all on the same order. For some things robotic systems work well, for others they don't. It will probably be a couple more years before they can roll the robots out on a large scale.

Re:"similar to"

[Anonymous Coward]

Different AC here, but at my old job that policy wasn't needed. You were wearing ear protection on a loud floor, and were being clocked so precisely that a casual conversation was as likely to happen as the owners deciding they had enough money and the entire business now belonged to the workers.

Re:"similar to"

[sjames]

How many bodies do you need for this? Must they be permanently disabled or will it be OK if they recover 80% in a year or two on the dole? How overt do the signs need to be? Must they don their Napoleon hats and bobble their lips in the corner all day or is it enough that if a voice like the one in their headphones says "invade France and slap people with a herring" they do it without question?

It's funny that your deduction doesn't meet the level of proof you demand.

Re:"similar to"

[slew]

Amazon factories are probably no worse than a typical UK call center... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-12691704

Re:"similar to"

[QRDeNameland]

Working at hopelessly automated amazon warehouses where you are treated as a physical automaton with no free will is "similar to" working in a traditional warehouse in the same way ozone is "similar to" O2. It's made of roughly the same thing, but isn't exactly good for you.

My experience as a warehouse worker consists of exactly 4 days from almost 30 years ago. It was a distribution warehouse for a major NJ supermarket chain and reading this article immediately brought me back to that experience.

I was in college and I needed a summer job, as the land surveyor I had worked for the previous summer wasn't hiring. The warehouse job was available and conveniently located so I took it figuring 'how bad can it be?' My recollections:

1) The job was basically to drive a pallet jack up and down endless rows of various products; pick A number of B product, C number of D product, etc.; stack and arrange the boxes so that they didn't all fall off as you continued picking, then bring it to the wrapping machine and finally drop it off in the loading zone. For every pallet you got a computer printout noting the maximum time allotted to fill the pallet. By the end of the fourth day, I was still struggling to get the orders picked in even TWICE the allotted time. It was far and away the suckiest work I ever did.

2) On top of that, the people who worked there were just sad and pathetic. The 'old-timer' union guys looked like they were entirely used up even though none appeared to be past their mid-40s, to a man they all appeared lifeless, joyless, and miserable. Then there were the younger guys, not in the union yet, mullet-headed yokels who *aspired* to be among the 'old-timers' with the blank gaze of death. I was struggling with the idea of tolerating the job for the summer...how one signs up for a lifetime of that...I can't even imagine.

Luckily for me, the evening after that 4th day the surveyor I worked for the previous summer called me and said they had a guy quit and if I still needed a job. I said unequivocally 'Yes!' and called in 'quit' at the warehouse the next morning.

That was a 'traditional' warehouse job, and I can fully relate to how it would affect workers precisely as the article states. I can only imagine how much worse it is now.

Re:"similar to"

[BreakBad]

But we can't all run around naked in the forest eating nuts and berries.

I do this all the time and nobody has sent me a paycheck yet!!!! Fucking monster.com..LIES.

Re:"similar to"

[InsightfulPlusTwo]

I read the article. Some guy worked 2.5 hours of overtime one day and got sore feet. He spoke of "hobbling" so he probably just didn't feel good that day, and he described feeling "absolutely shattered" because of his feet.

According to the article, his average speed for his shift (11 miles in 10.5 hours) works out to about 1 mile an hour. My walking speed is 4.5 miles per hour. I assume that he was simply unused to being on his feet all day or maybe overweight or has badly fitting shoes. The truly ironic fact is that my job involves sitting all day and is way less healthy than his. However, I can understand why he might complain about the sore feet, which would make his job more difficult and less pleasant.

The "mental illness" of the title was just a generic embellishment by some professor. Unfortunately, he didn't specify what characteristics he thought were risky about this job, so I didn't learn very much.

Re:"similar to"

[geek]

How many bodies do you need for this? Must they be permanently disabled or will it be OK if they recover 80% in a year or two on the dole? How overt do the signs need to be? Must they don their Napoleon hats and bobble their lips in the corner all day or is it enough that if a voice like the one in their headphones says "invade France and slap people with a herring" they do it without question?

It's funny that your deduction doesn't meet the level of proof you demand.

How about a simple diagnosis? I didn't know hyperbole was enough to condemn a company of employee abuse but I guess in your narrow little mind an accusation is all thats needed without any fucking evidence.

Re:"similar to"

[i kan reed]

I have the utmost sympathy for the suffering of call center workers. I've read more than enough horror stories. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's equally harmful to mental health(if the relationship here is causative).

Re:"similar to"

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you read it? Of course not. Amazon are profiling people and setting targets. The harder, faster workers are being set increasingly higher targets, despite no reward. Failing to meet your personal target results in being reprimanded despite being one of the most productive workers. Those that are just getting by earn the same income as high performers, but have the benefit of much lower pick-n-pack targets.

Re:"similar to"

[QRDeNameland]

I assume that he was simply unused to being on his feet all day or maybe overweight or has badly fitting shoes.

Or maybe...like many if not the vast majority of warehouses, they have hard concrete floors, which are brutal on the feet. The husband of one of my co-workers' works at Home Depot with the concrete floor, he is slim and in good shape, and has tried every orthopedic shoe solution available and still it's problematic. And I know for me personally, I can walk or hike for hours on end without a problem, but more than 30 minutes in a Home Depot or Costco on the concrete floors and my feet and calves are aching.

Re:"similar to"

[Anonymous Coward]

That's reasonable to consider, but strong enough correlations say something. Not necessarily causation, but implies a relationship of some kind. Thankfully us plebs are spared the actual p values to make a judgement for ourselves.

why don't you stop beating around the bush, and just say what you mean? "correlation does not imply causation, but strong correlation does."

you would be wrong, of course. a strong correlation says, "this is worth investigating," and nothing more.

Re:"similar to"

[Anonymous Coward]

But we can't all run around naked in the forest eating nuts and berries.

We could if we had never allowed power-hungry people to exploit our labor to build industrial society.

Re:"similar to"

[sjames]

I'm not suggesting condemnation, just mitigation. One might HOPE Amazon would be quite willing to make adjustments because it's the right thing to do. Failing that, make sure they know they will be on the hook financially and see if that motivates change. Only then dig deeper and see if any of their practices deserve an outright ban.

Meanwhile, I'm sure plenty of Amazon workers have been diagnosed with something. That is true of any large company and doesn't necessarily mean the company caused it. Unfortunately with mental illness it is usually not possible to determine an exact cause. Sorta like you often have no idea who gave you the miserable cold and even if you are 'pretty sure' it's just a good guess./p.

Re:"similar to"

[i kan reed]

But that isn't what I meant at all? I mean, it just seems like you want an obviously wrong argument you can smugly feel superior to.

Re:"similar to"

[Anonymous Coward]

That's reasonable to consider, but strong enough correlations say something. Not necessarily causation, but implies a relationship of some kind. Thankfully us plebs are spared the actual p values to make a judgement for ourselves.

And don't forget, we eventually do find causation related mechanisms, typically only after we look for them. To look for them, we typically select the most casually related items, and start looking in greater depth for the underlying causes.

Anyone who dismisses a correlation because it is not causation runs a risk of not observing the parts of their world they hold a bias against. Certainly it is not the same level of proof as causation, but correlation serves as an important tool.

Re:"similar to"

[BringsApples]

But we can't all run around naked in the forest eating nuts and berries.

What a statement!
Do you mean that we cannot run?
Do you mean that we cannot be naked?
Do you mean that we cannot eat nuts?
Do you mean that we cannot eat berries?
Oh, no I see what you mean. The forest(s) are not big enough to house us all. Well my friend, that's because of Western culture. It's Western culture that 'we all' cannot do, as this article is trying to point out. The bit about running, being naked, eating nuts and berries is the only thing that can always be done, and by everyone.

Re:"similar to"

[nine-times]

Some of this would hinge on what you consider to be "mental illness". Does the job cause people with perfect mental health (as though there are any of those) to suddenly develop schizophrenia? You're not going to find evidence of that. If someone did suddenly develop schizophrenia, you'd also be able to find other precursors and contributing factors in that person's past. However, stress and emotional trauma can be contributory factors to all kinds of things that may be considered "mental illness".

So the trick is not finding evidence of a particular individual who has suffered due to a job. That's easy. Most jobs cause stress and emotional trauma. The trick is in determining whether the stress and emotional trauma of Amazon jobs somehow cross a line, and reach a level of *unacceptable* stress and emotional trauma. Where do you draw that line?

Re:"similar to"

[i kan reed]

Not just that, but "correlation is not causation" is only true in that those could be correlated due to a secondary cause. The phrase isn't meant to imply a complete lack of connection, just that the connection isn't necessarily the intuitive one.

Re:"similar to"

[Anonymous Coward]

"For example, Amazon employees face a zero tolerance policy to talking to each other during work hours"

Not true at all.

- signed, an Amazon warehouse employee

Re:"similar to"

[geek]

I'm not suggesting condemnation, just mitigation. One might HOPE Amazon would be quite willing to make adjustments because it's the right thing to do.

Based on what evidence? You want a company to make a major adjustment in working conditions because you can't help yourself from fucking whining about them? Prove it or shut the fuck up.

Re:"similar to"

[Dishevel]

You realize that you still can go hunting and foraging. Things are nice but do we really need electricity, chlorine, bleach, antibiotics, painkillers easy access to a wide variety of food, do we really need to collect and have access to vast amounts of human knowledge?

No. We do not.

But I want them. Them and a new PS4. I like working for a living.

Re:"similar to"

[Anonymous Coward]

Just look what it did to Bezos. QED.

Re:"similar to"

[Dishevel]

I'm not suggesting condemnation, just mitigation. One might HOPE Amazon would be quite willing to make adjustments because it's the right thing to do. Failing that, make sure they know they will be on the hook financially and see if that motivates change. Only then dig deeper and see if any of their practices deserve an outright ban.

Meanwhile, I'm sure plenty of Amazon workers have been diagnosed with something. That is true of any large company and doesn't necessarily mean the company caused it. Unfortunately with mental illness it is usually not possible to determine an exact cause. Sorta like you often have no idea who gave you the miserable cold and even if you are 'pretty sure' it's just a good guess./p.

Sooo. You are saying threaten them first and if they don't make life all roses for all the people working there then look to see if you can actually pin something on them?

Cool story bro.

Re:"similar to"

[Dishevel]

I do not think he will "shut the fuck up". Rarely do the stupid not take over a discussion.

Re:"similar to"

[Anonymous Coward]

naked...on the couch...playing video games

Re:"similar to"

[Anonymous Coward]

fake dichotomy, yours.
and I see a problem with the article itself, maybe we are swapping cause and effect. If you decide, or are forced by circumstances, to work at amazon under those condition, chances are you are not in the top two thirds of the smartest persons.
Having said that, i never shopped at amazon because a guy who patents one click to buy can't be a good person. Turned out exactly as I expected.

Re:"similar to"

[war4peace]

What do you mean "intended as humor"??? GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHAHAHAAAAAAHHHH!
*runs away, hands flailing*

Re:"similar to"

[danlip]

To go hunting and foraging you need to own the land or have the permission of someone who does. Even on public lands such activities would be restricted. You might get away with breaking the rules for a long time, but that doesn't mean it's allowed. Owning land requires money which requires some job other than hunting and foraging. Also there is absolutely no way that this planet can support 7 billion people (or even 1 billion) via hunting and foraging.

Re:"similar to"

[danlip]

The article also mentioned the constant automated negative feedback from the scanner. I would think that would be hard to take too, and not the same as other warehouse jobs.

Re:"similar to"

[Dishevel]

Yop. The reason most people are alive is due to the very "problems" the parent AC I replied to posted.

Stupid people blindly hate capitalism, profit motive and freedom. They just want to be cared for with no effort on their part.

Give me my EBT card and STFU.

Re:"similar to"

[i kan reed]

Oh, well, I really wish I hadn't been modded up for something I read on the internet then. Makes me feel bad.

Re:"similar to"

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

Follow the money -- look for lawyers pushing this. Or politicians looking for a kickback. Once ypu've broken your feet in, which can take a few weeks, all day is no problem.

Follow. The. Money. We need super-reporters to dig into that.

Re:"similar to"

[sjames]

I'm trying, but you keep talking!

Just make them absolutely liable as I suggest. If they're really so sure there's nothing to it, then they can do nothing and all's well.

Re:"similar to"

[InsightfulPlusTwo]

Good point. We have a concrete floor in our warehouse as well, but I don't spend much time there.

Re:"similar to"

[sjames]

No, I'm saying put them on notice that they will be held fully accountable if there turns out to be something to this report. That will encourage them tio make damned sure it's really not an issue. If it's actually not, they can just do nothing and it's all just fine.

You weren't thinking of shifting the burden of responsibility for their actions onto the public, were you?

Re:"similar to"

[Nimey]

If only we had never domesticated cereals and vegetables, thereby allowing more people to survive to adulthood.

Re:"similar to"

[Dishevel]

Proof of wrongdoing is on the accuser. You do not need to prove yourself innocent.

Re:"similar to"

[newcastlejon]

What prompted this investigation? Sounds like a news crew just looking for a story they can call big.

Sounds to me like someone just re-discovered the Whitehall Study.

Re:"similar to"

[sjames]

Where did I say otherwise?

But note that in civil liability, the standard is preponderance of the evidence.

Re:"similar to"

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is your obvious bullshit walking speed relevant at all? Do you walk at 4.5 mph for 10 hours a day?

Re:"similar to"

[chromas]

I do this all the time and nobody has sent me a paycheck yet!!!! Fucking monster.com..LIES

You should have rolled the Dice.

Re:"similar to"

[Dishevel]

No, I'm saying put them on notice that they will be held fully accountable if there turns out to be something to this report. That will encourage them tio make damned sure it's really not an issue. If it's actually not, they can just do nothing and it's all just fine.

You weren't thinking of shifting the burden of responsibility for their actions onto the public, were you?

That sounds a lot like you want the burden of them not doing something wrong to be on them.

Re:"similar to"

[Anonymous Coward]

"It's totally true"

--Signed someone who got fired for fucking around all day, after 2 months of repeated warnings and a performance improvement plan.

Re:"similar to"

[sjames]

Yes, absolutely everyone has the responsibility to not do anything wrong, including corporations.

Re:"similar to"

[Anonymous Coward]

I wish more places would implement this. Some of us are introverts and find the distraction from actual work (for social banter) to be draining. I'm at work to pay my bills, not to make friends. Very few of my co-workers share my interests--that's why it's important to have friends outside of work. Not everyone can get a job with all-like minded people, a fantastic boss, and so forth. But virtually everyone is expected to be sociable and want to discuss football or some such nonsense, even when it simply wastes time. There are things called breaks. And if you have a quota, and you're exceeding it, sure, go ahead and talk. But I shouldn't be forced to chit chat, thus forcing my rate of work to be higher to meet the quota.

Re:"similar to"

[ffflala]

Amazon employees face a zero tolerance policy to talking to each other during work hours. Speak to anyone, lose your job.

Well that just seems like it would shut the warehouse down in a hurry.

First, one guy talks. "Man my legs are killing me!"
"You're fired!" says his supervisor... who is now going to get fired for talking on the job.
"You there, talking supervisor, you're fired for talking when you fired that guy!" And now *that* guy is next, and up it goes until Jeff Bezos finds himself out of a job.

I'm surprised it hasn't happened already.

Re:"similar to"

[Dishevel]

What are they doing wrong?

Or are you just getting all geared up on rumors and demanding action from a company that (As far as we know) has done nothing wrong?

Oh, wait. I get it. They are a corporation. Therefore they must be evil and doing shit wrong. It just needs to be found.

Go occupy someones house.

Re:"similar to"

[sjames]

I find it interesting that you are so horrified that a legal entity might have a responsibility to make sure they're not causing harm. Even moreso that you find it horrible that I might suggest they be held responsible if they do cause harm.

It's just sad that you cannot understand that being made fully aware of that potential liability in hope they will take great care with the well-being of their employees is some great wrong.

Re:"similar to"

[Anonymous Coward]

How about you waltz over the the Target next door and get some insoles, or would that grueling 300 yard walk across asphalt be just too much for you?

Re:"similar to"

[Dishevel]

They are causing no harm that anyone can prove. They offer jobs. People take them. You are the one that wants them to "Mitigate" harm that no one has proved that they are doing. How would you like them to do that? Is it your opinion that anytime anyone thinks that the company may be causing harm with no proof that the company should respond by changing all kinds of stuff or be threatened?

That might work. Of course costs will skyrocket as competitors and people who just do not like companies start flinging far fetched ideas. But those costs can me mitigated by lowering labor costs and raising the price of all the things people are buying.

A few poor people losing their jobs won't hurt much. The rich can pay a little more with no notice of it what so ever. The poorer people might be hurt. Of course we could charge people more money for things if they have more money. For those of us with no money things could be free. Then the poor will not be impacted by the higher prices and all will be fair.

Re:"similar to"

[jcoy42]

Actually, there's the concept of Natural Law to consider. You may find this interesting.

But not everyone can do it.

Re:"similar to"

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah man. You aren't kidding. I work at walmart in the tire and lube express, and I used to wear these cheap steel-toed boots. God damn, from walking around that massive store all day, it actually made my knees ache because of the crappy arch support of my boots. I use a nice pair of walking/outdoor sneakers. Well, not too nice because getting fricking bead seal on them stains them perma-black, but good enough.

Concrete is a bitch if there isn't proper support.

Re:"similar to"

[sjames]

They are causing no harm that anyone can prove.

Then they should have no problem with full responsibility. End of story.

Re:"similar to"

[Anonymous Coward]

Try insoles, they worked the best for me. But yes, concrete floors suck, especially if you have steel-toed boots on. My solution in the end was to get another job.

Re:"similar to"

[Anonymous Coward]

How about 20 odd years, there was a hermit in the woods of Maine, he would regularly plunder from campsites unseen.

The police officer that arrested him was the first person he had spoken to in decades.

Re:"similar to"

[garyoa1]

On the other hand, Obama proposed free health care (single payer plan) and everyone screamed socialism. So we ended up with Obamacare. Go figger.

Re:"similar to"

[Anonymous Coward]

A box, a smaller box, a larger box and another box? Oh, the diversity!

Re:"similar to"

[rsilvergun]

Yeah, but rarely is the question asked: is it worth it? Is making this many lives horrible worth what we're getting out of it? Most of us /.ers are in the 'haves' category though, so we're likely to say 'yes'. Occasionally somebody spares a thought for kids making toys in China or the dead garment workers in Indonesia, but then along comes the next year and we move on.

I don't really think we should live in a world were people live that desperate and frantic. But then again what can I really do about it?

Re:"similar to"

[rsilvergun]

Oh, bonus points for /. if you can resist the obvious "...is are children learning' follow up to my post.

Re:"similar to"

[rsilvergun]

Here you go.

Right now the people in the UK have enough of a social safety net (subsidized health care and education, enough money to afford beer and tv, etc) to maintain a bit more sanity, but their Conservative party wants that stuff taken away because you can't dream when your every waking minute isn't a constant, terrified struggle for survival.

Re: "similar to"

[Anonymous Coward]

So let the robots go get all of the random shit and bring it all to one location for the picker to figure out how to package them together and get it sent. Saves all kinds of time since robots can move quicker, and avoids the "mental illness" allegedly induced by a lot of walking.

Re:"similar to"

[ElectricTurtle]

Because there is no such thing as "free" anything. Being forced to pay taxes to pay for somebody else's healthcare is socialism, and it's not less socialism because you get healthcare you might not have needed or wanted too.

Re:"similar to"

[ElectricTurtle]

It'll only cause most the of the world population to die, so please, get on that immediately.

Re:"similar to"

[Anonymous Coward]

I looked up "hunting" and "foraging" in the dictionary, and neither was defied as being necessarily legal.

CAPTCHA: "refuted" (so there)

Re:"similar to"

[Anonymous Coward]

There's an incorrect premise in capitalist markets to asset-strip employees in order to improve competitiveness. The net result is capital flows to non-workers either through social welfare systems, through usury (rent-seeking), or through scams propagated by government resulting usurpation of capital formation leading to inevitable economic collapse. Economic collapse being defined as the inability of government to collect tax revenue's nor print debts, and the general impoverishment of the body politique.

When people are owned, at first they think like cattle which leads to more abuse. Then as prisoners, they stop dreaming and, subsequently, stop feeling.

To Steal, one must fillfully suspend belief in the concept of property; to suspend belief in property, one must suspend belief in the concept of property of self. That one owns one-self. As the sin continues, Both the slave accepts they are a slave and the master accepts they are the master, but both lose their ability to own themselves.

To Abuse, one must willfully suspend belief in the concept of respect and in doing so, suspends belief in the concept of self-respect.

The rulers, unable to control themselves begin abusing their livestock, and unable to respect themselves, abuse themselves along with their livestock.

Entropy eventually exhausts itself; nobody cares about living, and that's when the killing starts.

I'd cite historic examples, and there are many, but nobody ever recollects that as the reason why things happened.

God really hates sinners; it would afflict them with a disease that only takes a few actions to start and utterly destroys them in the end, without ever letting them feel the disease, know of it's presence, or fully understand it when it was pointed out to them. That is what the essence of Sin is.

One white lie becomes many. If you are willing to lie for someone, you're willing to lie to someone; if you're willing to lie for yourself, you are willing to lie to yourself. To Lie one must willfully suspend belief in reality, and in doing so, suspends belief in themselves. Pathological liars eventually lose track of reality, and at that point, they are Fucked.

Mexico just had an uprising where a few thousand local people organized and shot up the government and drug gangs. China's been having issues with crowds of people hunting down and killing fleeing managers and executives. Don't think for a second 100 foxconn employee's ready to jump the building aren't also willing to slit managements throats, literally, and don't think for a second people in an amazon warehouse aren't willing to kill the managers and completely trash the place if pushed too far.

Mental Health professionals exist to explain to pathological liars too far down the rabbit hole why common decency is necessary, but to someone with common decency, no explanation is required.

That is the natural order, accept it, understand it, cheat it at your own peril.

Re:"similar to"

[Anonymous Coward]

This exact same situation is happening at the USPS with the "City Carrier Assistant" position.

Management tries to find people who will work fast, and then piles more and more work on them. Pretty soon they are skipping lunch and breaks, while doing 13 hours of work in 8 hours. The person usually either gets into an accident and gets fired or gets sick of the insanity and quits.

USPS has the most toxic work environment of any job I have encountered. Being a psychopath is the sole credential needed for a management position.

Re:"similar to"

[PDX]

I worked at Walmart during the Phantom Menace Promotion in 1999. There hadn't been a Lucas STAR WARS film in 16 years. To describe the Toy Department as a war zone would be an understatement. There was a backlog of merchandise we weren't allowed to place on the shelves until the embargo date lifted. Walmart likes to have only 3 to 5 percent of total inventory in the back on the shelves. Everything from JarJar masks to cups in seasonal had to remain behind the swivel doors out of sight. The sheer number of boxes clogged the usual inventory system. Small boxes with action figures were hiding regular merchandise that needed to go on the main floor.
I only lasted 2 months at Walmart. The graveyard shift work left me with a permanent sleep disorder. On a positive note I did lose twenty pounds.

Re:"similar to"

[Dishevel]

It takes a "special" kind of person to think that healthcare is free.

Re:"similar to"

[Anonymous Coward]

This is exactly like the story manna. Look it up on the interwebs...

Re:"similar to"

[Anonymous Coward]

except, as I read it -- this wasn't a study. Somee BBC rufus went "undercover" and got a job at amazon,
then whined because walking 11 miles was hard on his feet. Then some prof said "this is bad".
I see no actual "study" no data, not science, just opinions.

Re: "similar to"

[Anonymous Coward]

Also had the same order selector job you described, cept we didnt use an automated wrapper. Their baseline performance is so hard to obtain they can only retain 1 person per training course on average.

Union fellas were LTOs for the most part and got all the good schedules.

Warehouse jobs like order selecting are incredibly brutal, and if Amazon pays as little as ive heard, its no wonder you hear so much stuff about them.

If anyone is into warehouse jobs, dont bother with amazon, kroger pays out 13.50 to start with direct hire

Re:"similar to"

[KlomDark]

Take your dog whistling and get the fuck out of here, loser.

Re:"similar to"

[gagol]

You can spit out crap all you want, single payer healthcare in Canada, actually allows you to consult the doctor you want, not the ones listed as covered by your "land of the free" insurer, get as many opinions as you like, and all of it for much less per person than you guy are paying in private healthcare down there. You all have to get insurance anyway, why not get together and get a real bargain for once? I feel much more free in my "socialist" system than under your "free enterprise all profits to the rich" system. Bonus point, poor people here don't die of cancer out of being poor, they can get productive once again after the fact. Healthy population is not a burden, it is an asset, and it is the right thing to do. But catering to the rich elite is the american dream I guess...

Re:"similar to"

[Anonymous Coward]

Why can't we run around naked eating nuts and berries? The robots are taking over anyway. "unreasonable performance expectations combined with a fundamentally dehumanizing environment"? Who needs that? I vote for nuts and berries.

Re:"similar to"

[Anonymous Coward]

Also there is absolutely no way that this planet can support 7 billion people (or even 1 billion) via hunting and foraging.

That's the beauty of this plan.

Re:"similar to"

[kwbauer]

So. not a single Canadian has ever used any health care facility in the US because the Canadian ones were too backed up? Your system almost handles the base load but you (your country) use the US system as a fallback quite regularly.

Re:"similar to"

[TheLink]

You all stupid? Where do you think the money comes from to treat the poor in ERs? The poor? They have no money, so you still pay for them!

Except you pay in very inefficient and expensive ways - the poor queuing at ERs till they get sick enough to treat, or committing crimes to get into prison to get healthcare ( http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/02/on-purposely-getting-arrested-to-get-life-saving-surgery/273282/ http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/08/27/2535201/sick-oregon-man-robs-bank-dollar-health-care-jail/ ). You also pay if one day you need ER treatment and don't get it because too many ERs have closed down: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/18/health/18hospital.html

So unless you are willing to euthanize the poor and sick, "single payer public health care" is the rational self-serving route for at least the "middle/upper class". It's still expensive but it provably costs less (just look at other countries). The elite class of course live in a different world - they may have their own doctors and pay proportionately less in taxes.

It should be frigging obvious taxes and other public money are ALREADY paying for the poor. But because of the many stupid AND selfish AND greedy people in the USA, you get some monstrosity of Obamacare. No poor sick person needs 1000 different health plans to choose from. You should automatically be covered by one public plan. If you don't want the public plan (or it doesn't cover your needs) you can go with whatever private plan you can afford.

Re:"similar to"

[gagol]

Some very rich people get treated in the US, but I bet there are much more US citizens impersonnating canadians to get free health care than the opposite.

Re:"similar to"

[gagol]

Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_(PPP)_per_capita

Re:"similar to"

[Anonymous Coward]

A guy with a handle like "BreakBad" can't figure out to make some bucks on the side? Come on man, just a quick sudo cook.

Re:"similar to"

[poopdeville]

Correlation + proposed mechanism = scientific theory.

Re:"similar to"

[Anonymous Coward]

No, "correlation is not causation" implies also the possibility of a complete lack of connection. The correlation could be just a random outcome of a specific set of data.

P.S.
Sorry for my english

Re:"similar to"

[advocate_one]

Not exactly hard to deduce either considering Amazon employees are striking right now in Germany (soon other places in Europe) for higher pay.

Best time to strike, right before the Christmass rush... such a pity that the neighbouring Amazon units are picking up the German demand though...

Re: "similar to"

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, how did a report about potential health problems at a facility in a country (Wales) which has healthcare which is free at the point of treatment for all (i.e. the NHS in the UK, which Wales was part of last time I looked), end up being talked about in terms of the US' nonexistent public health system?

I watched the programme (aired last night on the BBC here in the UK) and found it a bit rich. The main problem seemed to be that Amazon hires like 15000 temporary workers at this plant and sure they work them a little harder than might be considered reasonable. But the guy who was working there clearly had a brain and needed something more from his job rather than running around like pacman all day picking boxes. Was he a student and was his expectation of work a little high (this is a hardcore manual job and Amazon did say that to him at the start)? This is temporary work remember. We all did bad jobs at one point in our lives and hey hopefully he will get a better one soon.

The programme itself seemed to be an excuse for bashing corporates for being not quite on the money when it comes to observing the spirit of the law (this time around health and safety not tax) rather than the letter of the law. I.e screwing their workforce because they can.

Maybe we need some better laws here. Both in the UK to sort worker expoitation and in the US to get a health system everyone agrees on.

Amazon will just comply to whatever the government tells them.

Re:"similar to"

[jandersen]

Owning land requires money which requires some job other than hunting and foraging

Up to a point, old chap. The privileged few that own the vast majority of land have rarely had their hands out of their pockets, except to hold a cocktail.

Also there is absolutely no way that this planet can support 7 billion people (or even 1 billion) via hunting and foraging

Depends on what you forage for. If you'll settle for insects and grass, then who knows?

Re:"similar to"

[Pino Grigio]

+1 excellent summary of the situation.

Re:"similar to"

[Anonymous Coward]

And "this is worth investigating" is something. Which is what he said.

Re:"similar to"

[Dr_Barnowl]

Yeah, when I did warehouse work, that was the worst aspect of it, and it really did mess with the balance of my mind ; the tedium (this was in the era of the tape Walkman, so it was a toss up between whether your music collection or your battery would run out in the first half of your shift) was terrible.

I ended up coping by walking around singing comedy songs and show tunes ; my co-workers thought I was nuts, and I probably was by the end of 6 weeks of it.

If I was doing it these days I'd be getting every educational book and podcast I could onto my MP3 player.

Re:"similar to"

[Anonymous Coward]

According to the article, his average speed for his shift (11 miles in 10.5 hours) works out to about 1 mile an hour. My walking speed is 4.5 miles per hour.

Your walking speed might be 4,5 miles an hour, but you're doing that 10+ hours while lifting heavy things and working hard.

Re:"similar to"

[Anonymous Coward]

He might want to try some liquid-filled insoles e.g. http://sole-mates.eu/ ...they at the very least reduce the impact of the foot hitting the floor, aside from the other claims for improving circulation etc.

I've used them in a similar work environment (hospital) and had good results.

Re:"similar to"

[Xest]

I actually watched the associated documentary last night and can say it's a bit of everything.

Part of it was simply just whiny workers and union reps who work simply averse to doing the type of job they found themselves doing. For this I have little sympathy and would have to side with Amazon here. It was the classic union story of wanting lots of money for doing fuck all work. According to the worker undercover and whining he was getting over £8 an hour which is about 20 - 25% more than minimum wage and it worked out to about £17k - £18k a year which is well below the national average, but pretty good for a menial job requiring no qualifications. This is about what some bottom of the run IT support staff get that are at least required to be able to perform some diagnostics and have at least a level of IT competence that would require a few years of learning about IT, networks and so forth even if not formal learning - especially in the low income area where the warehouse in question was situated (where hence cost of living is also much much lower meaning a lower salary gets you more than elsewhere).

Part of it annoyed me, I knew Amazon pays no real taxes in the UK because it uses it's subsidiaries to avoid those responsibilities but I wasn't aware parts of the UK such as Wales and Scotland are outright subsidising their existence here meaning it's actually a net cost to the tax payer to have them here, especially when you consider the burden of bad health their premises are genuinely causing some staff on the NHS, which all wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for the fact that in subsidising them we're also destroying competition by allowing them to offer cheaper goods which puts indigenous businesses out of business. Something needs to be done here, the whole setup with Amazon is detrimental to competition and detrimental to our country.

But then there was the last part of it, the part where it was clear cut that Amazon was breaking the law. Lights going out in the factory regularly forcing workers to work in the dark, this was a blatant breach of health and safety law and they need to be pulled up on this. The second clear breach was that they were giving staff disciplinaries for going home ill, even if it was work caused illness such as a bad back for lifting heavy goods. This is also out and out illegal, you can only discipline someone for faking illness or self-caused illness (i.e. hangover from drinking too much) not for genuine illness, and most definitely not for work related injuries - on the contrary, in the latter case the employee should be getting compensated if they ask for it, not disciplined.

So it was a mixed bag, some of it was Panorama being typically full of shit as it normally always is, some of it was up for debate depending on your political views such as whether it's better to pay a company to be able to employ people even if that means other people going out of business, and some of it was Amazon unquestionably breaking employment law.

But make of it what you will, the bulk of the documentary focussed on Panorama talking shit and listening to lazy shirkers whining about having to actually work.

I'm personally not keen on Amazon, I think they're anti-competitive and immoral when it comes to things like tax hence why the revelation that not only do they dodge tax but accept public subsidy makes me sick. But despite that I think they deserve some defence here, whilst some of the documentary exposed illegality, much of it was simply unfair criticism.

Re:"similar to"

[Goose In Orbit]

I take it you pay no taxes at all then?

After all, you wouldn't want some of it spent on... you know... other people, would you?

Re:"similar to"

[GameboyRMH]

Sounds like "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need."

Re:"similar to"

[Anonymous Coward]

Only if you believe in the man made laws that govern this. If you can't physically defend your resource then anyone can take it whenever they feel like it.

There are no laws other than those in the mind of the beholder.

Re:"similar to"

[Anonymous Coward]

But that isn't what I meant at all? I mean, it just seems like you want an obviously wrong argument you can smugly feel superior to.

of course you did. it's right here in black and white (emphasis mine):

That's reasonable to consider, but strong enough correlations say something. Not necessarily causation, but implies a relationship of some kind.

what is a relationship, if not causation? if there's no causation, there's no relationship... of any kind.

Re:"similar to"

[Anonymous Coward]

And "this is worth investigating" is something. Which is what he said.

no. what he said was:

Not necessarily causation, but implies a relationship of some kind.

it's right there in his very next sentence. this doesn't look like "this is worth investigating" to me. it looks like a confused mess of wanting to pay lip-service to science while still wanting to make unproven assumptions. when two things are related, then one has caused the other. when one has not caused the other, there is no relationship.. of any kind.

or... maybe they're brothers?

Re:"similar to"

[i kan reed]

Here's an old classic:
Murders go up with ice cream sales. The relationship here is that both go up in the summer. Neither necessarily causes the other, but a factor relates to both.

Re:"similar to"

[Reziac]

Maybe it says that Amazon's hiring practices tend to select for mentally unstable people. ;)

Re: "similar to"

[Anonymous Coward]

Lol! So true! XD

Re:"similar to"

[volmtech]

Actually, domesticating cattle was worse. They turn coarse vegetation we can't eat into meat and motive power. The horse collar increased food production even more. Of course, the internal combustion engine was the worst thing ever developed.

Re:"similar to"

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you happen to work at Amazon? You seem mentally distressed. ;)

Re:"similar to"

[Stuarticus]

It takes a special kind of person to think people should die because they can't afford a doctor.

Re:"similar to"

[Dishevel]

They don't die. They go deep into debt.

You just keep telling yourself that "Health Insurance" and Health Care" are the same thing. Even though they are not. If the government wants to open special hospitals and offer free care they are more than welcome too. Just stop fucking with my Health Insurance to do it. They will not do that though. Because the costs could not be hidden and blamed on others. The cost of offering "Free" healthcare to anyone who wants it would be way to visible.

Give to charity you will feel better. It works better as well. Just stop thinking that you are a better person than me because you are more willing to steal other peoples money than I am.

Re:"similar to"

[Stuarticus]

Your wild accusations are an amusing insight into your personality defects. I already pay for plenty of people's real health care because I live in a sane country that recognises the value of looking after it's citizens, I also have the option of paying for health insurance if I wish. Plenty people die from lack of health care rather than simply going into debt, either because they wait too long because they are worried about costs or because they can't get decent treatment. Your attitude borders on psychopathy.

Re:"similar to"

[Dishevel]

People die because they made a bad choice. The care is there. Theft is theft. Is it suddenly ok because the big bully on the block wants to take your money?

Because taxes are taken and not given it is the responsibility of a government to only take what is needed. To take fairly. Once that care is removed from the equation there are problems. Greece, Spain, France are all suffering because the people are too dependent upon its government. The government meant well each time it handed out a new entitlement. But over time people want more and more done for them and do less and less for themselves.

This is not a good thing. I give to charities that offer hand ups. Not hand outs. I am of service to my community. I take care of my family. These are good things that need to not be drummed out of the public mind. You can say that they are not, but you would be wrong.

The people of the US are the most charitable people in the world. Those that identify as more conservative give a larger percentage of their wealth and time to charities. Those that argue that governments need to do more give less. They feel really good about it though.

I am so glad that you started right out showing everyone how superior you are to me. Since that is how you will continue to feel good about yourself go right ahead. Continue on your path. You have every right to feel good about yourself for what you want to make those around you do.

Re:"similar to"

[Stuarticus]

What a load of horse shit, why don't you share what charities you give to and how much? A more self obsessed pile of bile I have rarely seen. I am pleased you feel that I am superior to you, but I do wonder how you reached that conclusion from what I typed.

Re:"similar to"

[Stuarticus]

I also completely fail to see how you can possibly claim healing someone with a broken bone or suffering from cancer can possibly be construed as a "hand out" rather than a "hand up", would you be so kind as to try and explain the logic there?

Re:"similar to"

[Dishevel]

Again. I really appreciate the way you show your humanity and good will. It is really nice to know that certain segments of the population like to personally attack those they do not agree with. The cool part though is how those are the very same people that preach tolerance and loving everyone equally.

You are one of those people, right? Everyone must be tolerant of every life style there is. And if you do not agree we will destroy you.

As for what charities I give to ... I give to a local program that helps drug addicted women with children and I give to a well known religious organization that helps people in need and during disasters. I am not a member of that religion but I do appreciate their work. I think they do a lot of good. I do not give large amounts of money. I give what I can afford and still have some fun and provide for my family. There are many that give more and there are people that give to a higher pain threshold than I do.

But you just go on with your life hating those who think differently than you do all the while screaming for tolerance. We do find it amusing.

Re:"similar to"

[Dishevel]

I do not believe I have ever said that.

Could you please point me to that quote?

Re:"similar to"

[Anonymous Coward]

How about my workplace? 55 hours a week with no breaks, and that kind of overtime could be increased with no notice. That proof enough for you?

Amazon brutal, but not a convenient liberal cause

[Anonymous Coward]

This Thanksgiving I am going to hear from all of my pro-union family members about how evil Walmart (my employer) is, and how they treat their employees. All the while comparing books they are reading on their Kindles and shopping for Kindle Fires for their kids.

Liberals are so awesomely hypocritical.

The bourgeoisie creates its own gravediggers

[For a Free Internet]

Workers of the world, unite! You have nothing to lose but your chains!

Re:The bourgeoisie creates its own gravediggers

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, they are 'free' to go right now. We'll just replace them with robots anyhow

Re:The bourgeoisie creates its own gravediggers

[Archangel Michael]

"Workers of the world, unite! You have nothing to lose but your chains! (and employment)"

One thing that Liberals fail to note, is that increasingly all the jobs they champion with "unions", are the ones slowly being replaced by Robots, that work cheaper and longer without whining. And when all the jobs are automated, they will wonder what happened.

Right now, the only real job is to know something a computer sucks at knowing, or where robots don't function well. Both these lists are getting smaller daily.

So, go get your PhD in "Liberal Studies" with a "Feminism" minor, and then go find a job at Burger King while complaining it isn't a living wage. You've produced a useless product and now you're complaining it cannot earn a decent living. Econ 101.

Re:The bourgeoisie creates its own gravediggers

[Anonymous Coward]

I got my PhD in physics (and am higher in the hierarchy of command than my computers, rather than the other way around). I'm still going to complain about mistreatment of my fellow human beings, being abused by a system that systematically denies a decent living to all despite abundance of resources to do so. Sorry, it's not just the Liberal Studies Feminist PhDs who can see what a pile of shit Capitalism is for humankind. Here, you can even read Albert Einstein's own explicit support for socialism over capitalism if you insist on only listening to the opinions of people with "worthwhile" academic credentials.

Re:The bourgeoisie creates its own gravediggers

[guevera]

With the benefits accruing entirely to the owners of capital (except for a few crumbs given to the managers and techs who enable the process). Hence the need for the workers of the world to unite -- so we can get our fair share of the world's resources. Hopefully this can be accomplished through conventional political means, otherwise it's going to get awfully bloody.

Re:The bourgeoisie creates its own gravediggers

[0123456]

Hence the need for the workers of the world to unite -- so we can get our fair share of the world's resources.

Uh, but how are 'THE WORKERS OF THE WORLD' going unite when all the work is done by robots?

Hopefully this can be accomplished through conventional political means, otherwise it's going to get awfully bloody.

Yeah, there are few things the left love more than mass murder.

Re:The bourgeoisie creates its own gravediggers

[lgw]

With the benefits accruing entirely to the owners of capital.

Well, except for the benefits accruing to everyone who shops at Amazon., who vastly outnumber Amazon employees.

except for a few crumbs given to the managers and techs who enable the process

Amazon pays it's software develops quite well, or at least they made the recent "top 20 average salaries" list in that recent /. article.

You, too can be an owner of capital, of course. Right now, you can own one share of Amazon for just $375.91, including a vote on how much to pay warehouse workers, and the hope that maybe one day you'll get a dividend of some sort. Most Americans are "the owners of capital" these days, as more than half of us own stock directly, or indirectly through a pension plan.

But workers get most of the money, really. Total wages in the US for one year (~13T) are fairly close to the total value of all stocks (~19T). If all dividends paid by all companies were divided evenly among the workers, we'd average less than a 3% pay raise. Include all profits, some of which are quite legitimately being used to grow businesses, and it's still less than a 10% raise.

Yep: collectively the "owners of capital" are getting about 10% of what the employees get in salary. Does that surprise you?

Re:The bourgeoisie creates its own gravediggers

[Anonymous Coward]

The ironic thing is the lowest paid jobs are going to be the hardest to automate, at least for the next few decades. Everyone goes on about self-driving cars, but robots are a bit useless at looking after children or elderly people, construction, cleaning and anything which requires actual face to face contact (i.e. almost everyone hates supermarket self-service tills). Machines may assist in many of these positions but at the end we're still going to need enormous quantities of good old humans to make sure the comfortable classes aren't drowning in shit or being beat to death by gangs of starving peasants.

Plus those geeks of a smug persuasion may have noticed how governments all over the world are pushing for younger and younger kids to learn programming as well as pushing for more immigrant IT workers. In a few years average programmers will get about as much of a wage premium as average 'word processor operators', so am betting many of them will be quite bitter.

Re:The bourgeoisie creates its own gravediggers

[ElectricTurtle]

Listening to a physicist on economics or politics makes as much sense as listening to an economist or politician on physics. I'm sure you'd be happy to have a random Capitol Hill denizen set up the next experiment to create a singularity. Oh, you wouldn't? Well then you and ol' Einstein can STFU about things you haven't fully studied. I find the life's work of people like Milton Friedman and Friedrich von Hayek a lot more compelling, well-reasoned, and well-supported.

Re:The bourgeoisie creates its own gravediggers

[cas2000]

You, too can be an owner of capital, of course. Right now, you can own one share of Amazon for just $375.91,

and at the US minimum wage of $7.25/hour, you'd only have to work 51.84 hours in order to own that one share (not including brokerage fees, or any survival requirements like food, shelter, transport to/from work, paying bills etc. also ignoring the fact that you likely couldn't buy a single share of amazon or anything else).

see, *anyone* can benefit from capitalism!!!! yay! the system works!!!

you too can own an insignificantly tiny chunk of a mega-corporation and start identifying with the capitalist owner classes. don't forget to vote for pollies promising to lower taxes and eliminate regulation (as if there's any other choice on offer, haha) while slashing social programs that might help you survive.

woops! last quarter's profits were less than expected, so your $375 share is now worth only $350. And Amazon's management have decided to earn their multi-million dollar bonuses by artificially boosting the next quarter's figures by sacking you and thousands of other peons. But look on the bright side, you have a a whole share of amazon all to yourself, that's now worth only slightly less than you paid for it, and it'll probably recover to $370 or even more soon. hooray!

Re:The bourgeoisie creates its own gravediggers

[Anonymous Coward]

Friedman and Hayek are extremist kooks... no serious economist takes those clowns seriously. Even Marx has more weight in economics than those imbeciles.

Re:The bourgeoisie creates its own gravediggers

[lgw]

I don't understand your point. Very few people are born wealthy, and at least in America most wealthy people accumulate whatever wealth they have over their lifetimes. I grew up in a trailer park in hillbilly country, but now I'm approaching independently wealthy, precisely by saving and investing part of my income. It's not easy to get enough to live on (I've lived on half my take-home pay for 15 years now), but it is fairly easy to get 1 per-capita share of all publically-traded companies, as that's less than 2 year's median income.

Seriously - if you can save 2 years median income you have "your fair share" of the means of production. That's no even close to enough to live on because there just isn't that much corporate profit. About $10 goes to salary for every $1 that goes to owners. Massive injustice?

And Amazon's management isn't bonused that way. You'll generally only find that sort of thing at failing companies. Amazon's skilled workers get paid quite well, it's only the unskilled workers that are paid poorly. Massive injustice? Sorry, you don't get paid for breathing: if you want more money, learn to do something that society values more.

Re:The bourgeoisie creates its own gravediggers

[zsau]

We're already getting "our fair share of the world's resources"—and then some. Haven't you noticed that we are killing the world we depend on for life?

Where would we be without experts?

[jamesl]

A BBC investigation into a UK-based Amazon warehouse has found conditions that a stress expert said could cause "mental and physical illness".

Well, that settles it.

Re:Where would we be without experts?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't want to believe this, so I'm going to make "expert" sound like it's a bad thing even though I have no real argument

Re:Where would we be without experts?

[jythie]

Who needs to bash 'experts' when we have 'BBC investigation'. Parts of the BBC do some great reporting, but most of it is tabloid level irresponsible.

Re:Where would we be without experts?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well I just bought stuff from Amazon so I have to absolve my guilt somehow!

Haha! No, I bought stuff from Amazon Canada, which I'm sarcastically certain is much better.

Re:Where would we be without experts?

[war4peace]

It all boils down to UK natives whining that "it's hard" and refusing to do it unless they're paid extra. Then, some Romanians, Poles, Bulgarians come in, get the same jobs for 70% of the initial wage the UK natives were whining about and work harder and are happier with 0% insanity. This, in turn, fuels more whining from the UK natives who yell that "foreigners got our jobs, boooo!!!"

Meanwhile, the world spins round and the Universe doesn't give a flying fuck.

Re:Where would we be without experts?

[jythie]

I don't know, I see a lot of conservative garbage come out of their reporting too.....

Re:Where would we be without experts?

[Anonymous Coward]

Cue the anti-American propaganda.

Amazon warehouses lower SAN score, while TESCO warehouses are "good".

Re:Where would we be without experts?

[0123456]

I don't know, I see a lot of conservative garbage come out of their reporting too.....

I guess you could argue that the British left are really now the conservatives, because they're the ones trying to conserve bloated government and a massive, inefficient welfare state in a world where decades of socialism is driving the nation into bankruptcy.

Re:Where would we be without experts?

[0123456]

Then, some Romanians, Poles, Bulgarians come in, get the same jobs for 70% of the initial wage the UK natives were whining about and work harder and are happier with 0% insanity.

That's because they're getting paid ten times as much as a doctor would in their own country for doing menial work, and can save enough in a few years to go home and set themselves up for life.

If 'Lazy Britons' could earn $1,000,000 a year for fifteen hour days cleaning offices in Poland, they'd be out there with a big smile on their face eager to do as many hours as they could.

Re:Where would we be without experts?

[Anonymous Coward]

Parts of the BBC do some great reporting, but most of it is tabloid level irresponsible.

As an American, I'll tell you, the BBC has nothing on CNN, FOX, MSNBC, et al when it comes to 'tabloid level irresponsible'.
I'm not sure if there is a credible news organization left on the planet. The BBC is at least still tying to be one.

Re:Where would we be without experts?

[Anonymous Coward]

No it isn't. The BBC is full of Oxbridge-educated upper middle-class types & their kids. Some may be lefties but only in a wooly 'lets be nice to the gays' sort of way, however many of its top names and power-brokers are typical right-wingers (Andrew Neil, Jeremy Clarkson, Chris Patten, Michael Portillo). Sure the Daily Mail and other cretinous rags will insist the BBC is a heaving mass of Communists, but the Daily Mail is perhaps the worst excuse for a newspaper since the Sunday Sport. I would concur that the BBC have a fair few liberal dramatists, but this is probably because right-wing entertainment really doesn't sell with a general audience (don't recall everyone rushing out to make Atlas Shrugged a big hit...)

Re:Where would we be without experts?

[Anonymous Coward]

Meanwhile in the non-socialist US they just spend all their money on wars, nuclear weapons, Homeland Security, subsidies to multi-national corporations and then... moan about the cost of food stamps.

Re:Where would we be without experts?

[0123456]

Where's the non-socialist US?

Re:Where would we be without experts?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ha ha good one. Of course the grass is greener in GB when you look from Bucharest. Why don't you sell everything and move there? You will be king ( like your prince Charles with the dream house in Transylvania).

Re:Where would we be without experts?

[war4peace]

Sadly, world doesn't work that way. Welcome to Real Life.

Point is: if someone else can live where you live and work for less money, doing something you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole (pun not intended) for the same wage, well then, it's not really their fault, is it?

Re:Where would we be without experts?

[0123456]

No it isn't. The BBC is full of Oxbridge-educated upper middle-class types & their kids.

Yeah. Trendy lefties.

Re:Where would we be without experts?

[mythosaz]

This happens.

Plenty of people in the US pack up and move to somewhere in Central America or Southeast Asia where they take the dollar and speak English and retire like kings.

Re:Where would we be without experts?

[Anonymous Coward]

>...where decades of socialism is driving the nation into bankruptcy

Do you even know what the word 'socialism' means? Because it really doesn't seem like it. For your info, the last time the UK had an even vaguely socialist government was in the 1970s.

Re:Where would we be without experts?

[Anonymous Coward]

Just did some research, and it seems that Polish Doctors' salaries are between 2000 and 5000 euros per month. Now, not stellar by any means, but if you think that Amazon warehouse workers are pulling in 20000 per month in the UK, disregarding the cost of living between the 2 countries, I would suggest that you either do some research or stop exaggerating so much.

Re:Where would we be without experts?

[gagol]

Look for "under cover boss" tv show, they had a show done on amazon. I do not want that job, so much I would prefer to live off SS than work there.

Re:Where would we be without experts?

[gagol]

I don't know about the BBC, but here in Canada, if it was not for TV investigation shows, we would have trouble deterring corruption in politics.

Re:Where would we be without experts?

[Builder]

That's a race to the bottom though. Because they are happy to live 6 to a 2-bed house and do nothing but work for 5 years means that we all should. No family for you - the Romanians don't have one until they go back to Romania. No sports for you - the Polish don't need them, so why should you? No discretionary spending for you - the Lithuanians just save.

So now the whole country is living like that, then what happens? Well, no discretionary spending because you can't afford it means many business close. And those staff are now competing for your jobs at an even lower rate, but they're happy to live with 8 people in a 2-bed house. And so the race continues...

Re:Where would we be without experts?

[Xest]

The income disparity exists, but isn't anywhere near that large. The poles really do just have a far better work ethic than the Britons they're competing with at that level. It's not because of reward, it's about aspirations - the Brits just want an easy ride and free money for nothing. The polish want to work hard and make something of their lives and go somewhere.

It's often cited that our benefits society is what draws immigrants over, but that's false - they come over for the opportunities, not the free ride. It's in fact our benefits society that gives the laziest in society an entitlement attitude that makes them feel they shouldn't have to work and should get everything for free with little to no effort. The problem here isn't immigration, it's the laziest natives in our society who use immigration as their scapegoat when people dare to ask why they don't get off their arses, exploit one of the many free training programs available to them, work hard, and make something of themselves.

Re:Where would we be without experts?

[war4peace]

Actually, they live pretty decently with what other Brits would consider "too low" of a wage. Yes, that means no plasma 50" TVs, no going out to the pub every day and no expensive trips to exotic tourist destinations, but apart from that, they can definitely rent a two-room flat alone and afford normal food just like everyone else.

Re:Where would we be without experts?

[Builder]

> they can definitely rent a two-room flat alone and afford normal food just like everyone else.

Maybe where you are, but not where I am. Many people I know in full time employment cannot afford to rent a 2 bed flat. And that's regardless of where they're from.

Most of the tradesmen I work with these days are EU migrants come to London. Some of them are quite successful and have good lives, but many others really work hard to get by and do not have what I'd consider to be a life worth living. But they acknowledge that they're just doing it for half a decade or so and then plan to move home. Plans range from outright retirement, to starting a family and a business with the seed money from here.

Re:Amazon brutal, but not a convenient liberal cau

[Rob the Bold]

This Thanksgiving I am going to hear from all of my pro-union family members about how evil Walmart (my employer) is, and how they treat their employees. All the while comparing books they are reading on their Kindles and shopping for Kindle Fires for their kids.

Liberals are so awesomely hypocritical.

So we trade families for Thanksgiving. You can have my awesomely hypocritical conservative in-laws instead.

Re:Amazon brutal, but not a convenient liberal cau

[Anonymous Coward]

Generalizations aren't going to do much. Some conservatives are much the same.

Total Crap

[Anonymous Coward]

This is total crap. Mental Illness? Seriously? The BBC needs to get a life.

Re:Total Crap

[beelsebob]

Ah right, illness that you can't see manifest on the surface is not illness at all, right?

Re:Total Crap

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey Bezos, How's it going? Got enough H1B slaves yet?

Re:Total Crap

[SimonTheSoundMan]

I wouldn't class stress or depression as a mental illness, it is a physical one.

AC, at least the BBC have the balls to do this, unlike other commercial broadcasters.

Re:Total Crap

[Anonymous Coward]

yes I could see the headlines of Fox or CNN,

Amazon workers work hard.

or

Workers of Amazon are working hard.

modern society causes mental illness

[Anonymous Coward]

humans haven't evolved to live in communities larger than 100-150 people, we lack the capacity to recognize people outside our immediate social circle as human and instead treat them like objects and obstacles

interacting with strangers is inherently stressful due to uncertainty and the vast majority of people the average person interacts with every day is a stranger

unfortunately going back to the "correct" lifestyle of small, disconnected communities would require a disaster on the scale of an extinction level event

Re:Welcome to a world run by Republicans

[genner]

This is the type of life they want for all of us.

YEah......the UK is just a bastion of republican ideals........

Re:Amazon brutal, but not a convenient liberal cau

[i kan reed]

Oh, is your employer the one that held a food drive for you because you wouldn't have enough food for thanksgiving with the shitty pay you get, or was that a different wal-mart?

Also, I don't own a kindle, and I'm aware of, and try to avoid the modern slavery in electronics production.

Re:Amazon brutal, but not a convenient liberal cau

[Anonymous Coward]

It's hard to organize the everyman's anger into collective action (what it takes to end things like Walmart's and Amazon's mistreatment of workers) towards multiple targets at the same time. Wouldn't it be nice, though, if there were a way for workers themselves to organize, so it didn't take a media campaign for them to get better treatment?

Re:Amazon brutal, but not a convenient liberal cau

[Shakrai]

Why would you two trade families when you can get married and have the worst of both worlds at the same time?

Re:Welcome to a world run by Republicans

[Anonymous Coward]

Amazon is a USA company. Why try to defend them by repeating the lie that they aren't?

Re:Amazon brutal, but not a convenient liberal cau

[bennomatic]

Liberals are so awesomely hypocritical.

I can't decide whether to respond, "...says the AC" or, "...how the heck did this turn into a liberal vs. conservative issue?"

11 Miles a shift?

[jddeluxe]

I once accidentally worked for the US Postal Service for a year and a half and my job involved walking that much every shift; I must say that I was probably at my best physical shape of my life outside of military service...

Re:11 Miles a shift?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's actually common in the last generation of semiconductor fabs as well, employees walk 10-15 miles per 12 hours. The current generation of 12 inch fabs have robot tracks to each tool, far less walking, far less employees.

Re:11 Miles a shift?

[dysmal]

Having worked in a warehouse before, the physical toll of WALKING on a concrete industrial floor can be bad. My back, feet, and knees were in bad shape after about 9 months. You need to wear proper foot attire but most people working these jobs don't learn that until it's too late. Brand new athletic shoes were "flat" after 2 months yet they looked like they were in mint condition. There's a reason why they have the padded safety mats anywhere that people tend to stand in one place for hours on end. Look under the feet of your checker at your grocery store! I don't doubt the job is mindless and can be torture for someone who has independent thought but to say that someone is at risk of "increased mental illness" is garbage. The plight of the Amazon.com workers is nothing new. Amazon isn't treating their workers drastically different than other warehouse/shipping companies. They're just getting picked on because they're the biggest (like Apple getting attacked for the child labor at their suppliers). If we as a people want this situation to change, then we as a people need to stop clicking on "express shipping" and be patient.

Re:11 Miles a shift?

[Anonymous Coward]

Walking around outdoors through a wide stretch of neighborhoods, however, might be a bit less mind-destroying than trudging through an endless maze of grim industrial warehouse. I like my walks outside getting from place to place --- but I doubt Amazon's warehouses are anywhere near as pleasant for a stroll as even the less scenic neighborhoods on a postal route.

Re:11 Miles a shift?

[Njovich]

I once accidentally worked for the US Postal Service for a year and a half

Accidentally? How did that work? Did you think it was a sysadmin job when they were talking about mail delivery system?

Re:11 Miles a shift?

[the eric conspiracy]

That sort of physical activity wouldn't bother me when I was in my 20's or 30's. In fact I had a supervisory job where I had to walk a lot when I was in my late 20's.

Now that I'm a few decades older I still do 3 miles in an hour on a treadmill at the gym a few times a week. Not sure I could do 11 miles every day right now but I could probably work up to it.

The 33 second timer thing though would get pretty damn annoying. I think personal control and freedom to make decisions on a job are really what separates menial from not, much less than the physical activity.

In fact I am surprised they don't have people going 'postal' as a result.

Re:11 Miles a shift?

[Anonymous Coward]

"...outside of military service..."

Being in the military is a service to no one.

Re:11 Miles a shift?

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

I once accidentally worked for the US Postal Service for a year and a half

Accidentally? How did that work? Did you think it was a sysadmin job when they were talking about mail delivery system?

He just means he has been collecting pay checks from the USPS for decades, but accidentally, in spite of himself, without really meaning to, inadvertently, he performed some activities that turned out to be working.

Re:11 Miles a shift?

[Pinky's Brain]

No, if we as a people want to fix this we have to force it on each other through government ... tragedy of the commons and all.

Re:11 Miles a shift?

[jddeluxe]

"Accidently" = Was trying to get an IT job, but was told they only "hired from within". Took a non-IT job, but found that most of the IT positions were "filled" by General Foremen and higher friends/girlfriends who actually did nothing...

Re:11 Miles a shift?

[FlyHelicopters]

I buy a ton of stuff from Amazon, I of course have Prime, but most of the time I switch from 2 day shipping to standard shipping, I just don't need most stuff that fast. There are exceptions, but I'm happy with standard shipping most times.

I actually wouldn't mind the option at checkout to pay 50 cents more to give the worker who packs my item a bonus.

Re:11 Miles a shift?

[Anonymous Coward]

Being in the military is a service to no one.

If it ever comes down to a ground war, contact your local commanders and ask them if there's a sector they've decided to give up on. Move there.

Re:11 Miles a shift?

[slew]

Having worked in a warehouse before, the physical toll of WALKING on a concrete industrial floor can be bad. My back, feet, and knees were in bad shape after about 9 months. You need to wear proper foot attire but most people working these jobs don't learn that until it's too late. Brand new athletic shoes were "flat" after 2 months yet they looked like they were in mint condition.

Having worked a warehouse before, I can tell you that one problem is finding a pair of remotely comfortable osha compliant steel-toed shoes. Anything remotely similar to athletic shoes with inserts would have been a godsend.

Re:11 Miles a shift?

[Anonymous Coward]

I worked in an Amazon.com warehouse in the United States (Pennsylvania) as a packer. I was the last human, usually, to see items before the customer service, and Q.A. was certainly part of my job. Walking miles a day however, was not; I stood at the same packing bench for 9 hours a day.

Our policy was to wear sneakers. In fact, I think they specifically told us not to wear steel-toed shoes.

However, I can confirm that they did have unreasonable expectations. I remember when they would show me charts and tables of my packing summary statistics, and kept telling me I had to increase my rate. I already was putting in all my effort to pace myself. However, studying my peers, I did notice that box packing is a subtle art which probably takes years to master. They assembled and packed boxes like a knife cutting butter!

Re:11 Miles a shift?

[afidel]

Get a decent pair of redwings or keens and put in sorabathane insoles, I put a pair in my hiking boots at the recommendation of the owners daughter who basically lives outdoors half the year and they worked so well that after 127 miles in 7 days my feet still felt good. She apologized about selling me $25 insoles for $250 boots but after that first trip I went back to thank her.

Re:11 Miles a shift?

[slew]

Our policy was to wear sneakers. In fact, I think they specifically told us not to wear steel-toed shoes.

I'm just guessing, but it's probably because if as part of the required written employer hazard assessment of workplace safety, they made the determination you need some sort of PPE (personal protective equiment), then they would be on the hook for communicating the hazards, training the employees on the proper use of the PPE, monitoring their use, and depending on the type of PPE potentially paying for it.

By not officially considering it a hazard of your job that heavy things might drop on your feet, if they told you to wear safety shoes, they would probably get into trouble for telling you to do this and not training you and monitoring it... Of course in the warehouse I was working, I was occasionally operating a fork-lift and those forks are really heavy (and not permanently attached to the vehicle either) so they required safety shoes. Although it wasn't required by law*** (apparently safety shoes one of the PPEs exempt from the OSHA reimbursement requirement), if we brought in a reciept for the shoes, they would let us expense it up to $50... As you might imagine, the safety shoe training was kind of a joke.

***1910.132(h)(2) The employer is not required to pay for non-specialty safety-toe protective footwear (including steel-toe shoes or steel-toe boots) and non-specialty prescription safety eyewear, provided that the employer permits such items to be worn off the job-site.

Re:11 Miles a shift?

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

Take it cool buddy. I was just joking. I know lots of people start out on positions way below their standing to get a foot in, or to stay with a spouse etc. For example Penna turnpike jobs always open in the most desolate spots in the Appalachia, pushing snow in Tuscorara Tunnels or something. Then in three months they transfer you to suburb of Philadelphia and open another job in Tuscorara Tunnels. Them's the breaks.

Re:11 Miles a shift?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't doubt the job is mindless and can be torture for someone who has independent thought but to say that someone is at risk of "increased mental illness" is garbage.

No, it's the other way around. If you really have independent thought, non-mentally-taxing jobs are a blessing. You get to daydream about whatever you want while you work!

Re:11 Miles a shift?

[dysmal]

Go tell someone making $11/hour working 3-4 days a week (24-32 hours a week) to buy Red Wings. That'll go over like a fart in church on Easter Sunday!

Re:11 Miles a shift?

[Dr_Barnowl]

It's the Vime's Boots Paradox - you have to spend money to save money, but if you don't have the money you can't. It's more expensive being poor.

I got sick of buying cheap dress shoes for around the £40 mark because I'm a big guy (with small feet, so extra pressure on the soles) and walk hard, so the soles wear through in about 6 months. Even if you have them resoled, that costs around £20 depending on where you get it done. But I need a pair of smart shoes for the office.

So I finally went back to what I used to do in my youth when I was a medical student walking the wards ; bought a pair of high quality military boots from a domestic bootmaker. They're smart enough to wear to the office, much more comfortable than dress shoes, keep my feet dry regardless of the conditions, and I expect them to last me at least 5 years. They cost £130, so they're a significant outlay, but I'm going to save money by the end of the second year, and they are just all round better than dress shoes. The only disadvantage is that I can't tell when it's a wet day from the water seeping through the soles...

Balancing Act?

[Anonymous Coward]

What is the correct balance between societies desire and expectations of highly automated system's (virtual and physical) behavior and outputs and the real social need for low-skilled positions? As we move towards better working conditions for some, the stark contrast between the "old" way of working, however much we improve it and the standard "perks" of more modern positions, is there anyway that we could measure that doesn't result in "dehumanizing conditions"?

What is the replacement for these positions that doesn't have the same end result? How can you possibly make packing boxes, something that common sense shows is going to go away quickly, any more "human" when they are surrounded by large automated machinery?

I don't think we have even begun to talk about this, and IMO it's at the core of most of the labor conversations that are going on. Personally I would love a 6 month work year. It would give me 5 months of full-time training/learning and 1 month of vacation and I believe would allow me to be more focused those other 6 months. As much as I don't like the modern US organized labor organizations, the idea that as we increase productivity through automation, the ability to share the rewards of automation through shorter work hours I think should be revisited. Perhaps in those 6 months off you could work for a plucky startup? Go volunteer? Teach? Etc. People want to be productive and do things they enjoy, I think that is how we could solve at least one aspect of the issue; making the end results more humanizing.

Re:Balancing Act?

[Andrewkov]

Any gains in efficiency never result in less work or more vacation time... it results in layoffs and cost cutting to be more competitive and increase margins, which in turn forces other companies to do the same thing. Combine that with globalization, it's a race to the bottom.

BOZOS for BEZOS!

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

Hell comes to your house, one box at a time!

Obvious counterargument

[dkleinsc]

Amazon: BBC employees have increased incidence of mental illness.

(Thing is, they're probably both right)

Remind anyone of Manna?

[GameboyRMH]

The gear they're using sounds like a very primitive precursor to the headsets from Manna...which are already very close to completely possible. Just some Google Glass units and the rest is software (where the difficulty lies, in object recognition of course).

Re:Remind anyone of Manna?

[Jeng]

Yes, that was my first thought when reading the article.

And since you did not provide a link here is one for people wondering what we are talking about.

http://marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm

Re:Remind anyone of Manna?

[Anonymous Coward]

If the republicans get their way, "where it will be heading" is going to be more like that remote controlled cockroach kit. Except they wont be plugging it into cockroaches...

Re:Remind anyone of Manna?

[OzPeter]

Yes, that was my first thought when reading the article.

And since you did not provide a link here is one for people wondering what we are talking about.

http://marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm

just started reading from that link and then I found this paragraph in the story:

Ultimately, you would expect that there would be riots across America. But the people could not riot. The terrorist scares at the beginning of the century had caused a number of important changes. Eventually, there were video security cameras and microphones covering and recording nearly every square inch of public space in America. There were taps on all phone conversations and Internet messages sniffing for terrorist clues. If anyone thought about starting a protest rally or a riot, or discussed any form of civil disobedience with anyone else, he was branded a terrorist and preemptively put in jail. Combine that with robotic security forces, and riots are impossible.

Re: Remind anyone of Manna?

[Anonymous Coward]

if the gop gets there way jails / prisons sill filled people who need to see a doctor

Re:Remind anyone of Manna?

[Dr_Barnowl]

Manna is already completely possible and has been for some time - you don't need Glass, or object recognition, because the human provides the object recognition and "robot arms". You just need a wireless terminal of any kind, and these have been practical and available for at least a decade. The hard part is the software.

These systems are already Manna 1.0 - they order the worker around, the worker signals to the system that the work is being done, one difference being that they push buttons and read screens rather than listen and speak to the headset. Another difference is that the systems are not being used to instruct workers through the more complex tasks like burger preparation or the correct way to clean the restroom. The hardware is already more advanced than the Manna hardware of just an audio headset - the addition of a screen makes for a more reliable. high-bandwidth channel of information to the human component.

The only reason that Manna 2.0 systems are not in effect is that getting people to agree on a standard protocol for employee data and hiring and firing is difficult (and people don't currently see the need). It's only a matter of time before some startup decides to implement it - you're not going to get it from internal corporate projects because the middle management who run the project will quickly sink anything that could replace them. Likewise for a standard protocol for bidding on goods and services.

Re:Remind anyone of Manna?

[GameboyRMH]

The only reason that Manna 2.0 systems are not in effect is that getting people to agree on a standard protocol for employee data and hiring and firing is difficult (and people don't currently see the need). It's only a matter of time before some startup decides to implement it - you're not going to get it from internal corporate projects because the middle management who run the project will quickly sink anything that could replace them. Likewise for a standard protocol for bidding on goods and services.

I think this is one of the easiest parts, the data stores are already in place on HR blacklist sharing services. With an API or at worst a scraper script, the data on them would become machine-readable. Or a new service could be set up very easily.

Look at all the "social media dashboard" mobile apps that connect to multiple proprietary services, they are just as complex.

Re:Amazon brutal, but not a convenient liberal cau

[beelsebob]

It turned into a liberal vs conservative issue because those who aren't in favour of workers not being made ill by their work needed a way to justify that, and therefore did their best to associate it with what's commonly seen as an extreme, and slightly insane political affiliation. They then burned this straw political affiliation man at the steak to demonstrate how dumb it was to support the idea of workers not being made ill by their work.

Re:Amazon brutal, but not a convenient liberal cau

[Pinky's Brain]

Problem is that robots are already waiting in the wings ... Amazon pickers have only a couple years of job left as it is (unless minimum wage craters faster than robots get cheaper, at third world wages they can outcompete robots for a few years longer ... hard to see who will be left to consume though). If they unionise robots will take over faster.

Re:Amazon brutal, but not a convenient liberal cau

[koelpien]

There's an overworked/overstressed Amazon worker delivering books to my Kindle?

The alternative

[Anonymous Coward]

Either accept this or give up the jobs to robots

Re:Amazon brutal, but not a convenient liberal cau

[jythie]

At least one generalization is probably true... a lot of people are hypocritical jerks. As are horses.

Re:Amazon brutal, but not a convenient liberal cau

[Anonymous Coward]

They run really, really fast, hence the stress.

Most adults are mentally ill

[Anonymous Coward]

Some are just better able to keep a lid on it than others

Re:Most adults are mentally ill

[gagol]

To be in complete mental health means having every mental illness at the exact same level. Uneven repartition is the illness.

Vote here

[Anonymous Coward]

RU Kidding?
This new slashdot format sucks the big one.

The root of the problem

[Anonymous Coward]

unreasonable performance expectations combined with a fundamentally dehumanizing environment

I don't work for Amazon, so why are they describing my job?

Oh Look

[Anonymous Coward]

Another country of people who feel entitled to not perform at there jobs. Would it help if we gave everyone a pat on the shoulder, and a little trophy just for trying to so your job?

Get over yourselves. You're nothing special!

Re:Oh Look

[Anonymous Coward]

You just did, without a hint of irony or self-awareness, the very thing that you (falsely) accused others of doing.

You don't have to be crazy to work here

[Anonymous Coward]

But it helps.

mod parent up

[mekkab]

In-Laws: because we're not happy unless you're not happy.

Cute article to generate anger at big bad Amazon

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it a great job? Probably not. It the job physically demanding? You betcha. Is it a mental challenge? Not really. Is it dehumanizing? Puhleeez.....

I am guessing the "reporter" already had a conclusion and simply did what it took to prove his point of view. Heck, in high school I worked in a warehouse. It was hot and sweaty work with a very regimented schedule. The pay was lousy but it got me some spending money. As another poster said, it was great exercise. Not everyone it cut out for warehouse work and softies like the reporter should stick to sitting at home playing Candy Crush Saga.

Re:Amazon brutal, but not a convenient liberal cau

[Anonymous Coward]

And then they eat the steak, well-cooked by the straw-fueled flames.

Re:Amazon brutal, but not a convenient liberal cau

[Anonymous Coward]

If robots unionize we have bigger problems than filling jobs for pickers

The truth is...

[Anonymous Coward]

Working in general causes mental illness. Nobody should have to work, we should just be given what we want and stay stress free for our entire lives.

Re:The truth is...

[gagol]

The sad part is we have nothing but politics and lobbies working against this utopia RIGHT NOW.

Let's just replace pickers with robots...

[Mysticalfruit]

The entire warehouse is already a big Kiva robot cluster... Now use something like a "Baxter" bot to do the picking. ta-da. One baxter bot costs 22k a year. Once you got the kinks worked out you could have a whole army of the things and have a couple humans running around just trouble shooting when things don't go as planned.

Re:Let's just replace pickers with robots...

[0123456]

At which point, the BBC will be printing articles about how awful it is that Amazon are sacking all their workers and replacing them with robots.

While supporting the left-wing government that encouraged British companies to shut down their factories in the UK, sell the land for condos, and move the work to cheaper locations in Eastern Europe. And blaming Thatcher. Right on!

Re:Let's just replace pickers with robots...

[Anonymous Coward]

If you think the BBC supports the "left-wing," you're out of your mind. Their reporting --- like all the mainstream media outlets --- goes far out of its way to give right-wing propaganda talking points a "fair hearing" against facts and responsible journalism. The BBC is a typical "balanced" news source, giving right-wing fluff pieces, unchallenged corporate PR, and mindless Capitalist slogans equal priority with factual journalism. Strong, articulate leftists are rarely to never given a platform to speak at all --- at best, you'll hear leftist speech watered down to second-hand re-phrasings by a journalist, followed by a "balancing" straight from a corporate PR mouthpiece.

Re:Let's just replace pickers with robots...

[Anonymous Coward]

To be fair Thatcher tripled unemployment, introduced student loans, sold nationalised industries off for peanuts (and no, the service isn't better or cheaper, See: BT, British Gas etc.), allowed foreign companies to take over much of what was left, treated whole swathes of the country like shit, allowed councils to sell off school playing fields to property developers and, well, created that whole property-owning landlord monster class who is still fucking over the masses & means a typical house the size of a matchbox in the UK costs more than a middle-class home in the US.

And while we're at it she presided over a cover-up concerning Hillsborough, a cover-up over police actions during the Miner's Strike and was best pals with England's most famous TV presenting paedophile rapist - Jimmy Savile (actually demanding he should be Knighted by the Queen).

There's a lot more that can be said about Mrs T. Sure, she didn't outsource to Eastern Europe (no one did then - Cold War and all that). However, she was meant to be 'tough' on immigration while the inner-cities filled up with all manner of immigrants. Yeah, I know many down South still love her, but much of the rest of the country see her as someone who did more to kill the social fabric of Britain than the Germans in WW2.

As for the BBC, you do know many of its top staff are Conservative supporters don't you? Since the coalition got in the BBC has bent over backwards to push a right-wing agenda (including those numerous God-awful 'Oh look at all the benefit scroungers' documentaries). They also appear to act as a job agency for failed Tory MPs who litter its programmes. The BBC is and always has been the Establishment. Sad really.

Re:Let's just replace pickers with robots...

[0123456]

If you think the BBC is balanced, you're a raving lefty.

Re:Let's just replace pickers with robots...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, an organisation run by posh people and full of Tory MPs that appears to devote half of its political output to bashing poor people and praising multinational corporations just screams fucking left-wing, doesn't it?

Re:Let's just replace pickers with robots...

[sjames]

Ideally, we replace all workers with robots and spread the wealth around. That will require a few changes if it's going to work out.

The alternative is an eventual hellworld where a few at the top have their every desire met and the rest live only for the day they can tear everything down and start over (unless they're exterminated).

Re:Let's just replace pickers with robots...

[wonkey_monkey]

If you think people who think the BBC is balanced are raving lefties, you're a right-wing lunatic.

Meaningless soundbites FTW!

Re:Let's just replace pickers with robots...

[Mysticalfruit]

You have to ask yourself a question... what does hell sound like?

Standing in one place all day as a procession of kiva robots shuttles in front of you, you picking off the right thing, putting it into a box, repeat for hours.
If there's a hell, this is it. I can't imagine a more droll and tedious existence.

Vs.

Troubleshooting issues with robots such as gripper and item identification.
Doing repairs on those parts you can repair, such as grippers, cameras, etc.
Watching how the robots do a task and making improvements in accuracy, speed, etc.

Now, first task is semi-unskilled and the latter are more highly skilled.

All I can say is, tough shit.

Re:Amazon brutal, but not a convenient liberal cau

[bennomatic]

I'm confused. Could you please make a car metaphor?

Re:Amazon brutal, but not a convenient liberal cau

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd like to agree with you. but there were so many double nagatives I couldn't work out what side you were actually on. Well done, or stop it. One or the other.

Re:Amazon brutal, but not a convenient liberal cau

[CraftyJack]

Thanksgiving: It's like the /. comments, but with turkey.

Re:Amazon brutal, but not a convenient liberal cau

[Shakrai]

Thanksgiving: It's like the /. comments, but with turkey and alcohol.

Fixed it for you.

Re:Amazon brutal, but not a convenient liberal cau

[geek]

It turned into a liberal vs conservative issue because those who aren't in favour of workers not being made ill by their work needed a way to justify that, and therefore did their best to associate it with what's commonly seen as an extreme, and slightly insane political affiliation. They then burned this straw political affiliation man at the steak to demonstrate how dumb it was to support the idea of workers not being made ill by their work.

Can you show me who got ill at this Amazon warehouse please? Oh yeah, you can't because no one has..........

Remember kids...

[bra1n]

STAY IN SCHOOL!

Re:Remember kids...

[Anonymous Coward]

... to add insult to injury, when you find yourself competing with all the other higher education graduates for a brutal mindless dehumanizing job that barely keeps food on the table.

Re:Remember kids...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, if you stay in school not only can work a shitty dehumanizing job but you'll also be $30,000 in debt! Awesome!

Today's Tautology

[carlhirsch]

Dehumanizing Work Is Dehumanizing.

Re:Amazon brutal, but not a convenient liberal cau

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't decide whether to respond, "...says the AC" or, "...how the heck did this turn into a liberal vs. conservative issue?"

The former makes no sense, in light of the fact that there's nothing ironic or hypocritical about the grandparent post being made anonymously.

The latter, on the other hand, is a valid point. So go with that one.

i worked one day at a barnes and noble facility

[Anonymous Coward]

byzantine mess of conveyor belts dropping an endless deluge of packages at you that must be scanned and packed on pallets, fuckers didn't even give a lunch break but since i was part of a temp crew of mostly undocumented mexicans they probably figured no one would dare complain. i didn't complain i just never went back. i've worked in warehouses for furniture companies and unloading trucks full of wooden desks is a better gig that working in one of these online retailers facilities. if amazon is anything like barnes and noble, then yeah, working there for more than a week or two will probably break you down, hell, i only lasted a day.

My warehouse experience sucked too

[istartedi]

I never worked for Amazon, but I worked at a much smaller warehouse that handled fragile items. Our mode of work was nowhere near as brutal as what they're describing. The warehouse was about the size of a large gymnasium. We picked, then packed so that broke up the monotony. Looking for irregular but functional items was also fun. These were randomly given free to employees at various times. That was about the only real perk. A lot of other things sucked. The management just didn't have a lot of respect for the employees. It was all about "discipline" and I left over a dispute involving working straight through lunch. I think it flew just under the labor law radar there. There was a trash compactor there that broke a guy's arm allegedly, and they just welded that stupid thing back together. The lack of respect probably ran both ways. One of the guys slid on some boxes and used it as a pretext for disability. I saw the guy. He looked fine to me.

I only did it for a few months, then did a few more jobs and went back to school.

Anyway, as sucky as the job was this Amazon thing sounds like the pits. In a small warehouse you're always in conversational contact with another human being, or close by. You're not alone too much. It sounds like these pickers are just listening to a machine and running through a football-sized warehouse all the time. It doesn't sound like they get a chance to pack, sweep, clean, or do other stuff that could break up the monotony and allow them to socialize while working.

A company as smart as Amazon could find a way to solve these problems; but I think the solution will be to simply have pick-bots do the work and fire the employees. I have mixed emotions about that. Crappy minimum-wage jobs have a purpose sometimes. If you're not going crazy as a picker and day-dreaming about something else, schlepping back to the flat and commiserating with your buds about a crappy job, then what are you doing?

Re:My warehouse experience sucked too

[FlyHelicopters]

The way we have "employed" people for decades is coming to an end. Robotics is going to change this.

Amazon is working on fully automated warehouses, McDonalds is working on automatic burger making machines, etc.

At some point, there will just not be anything for millions of people to do, machines will do it all.

We will need to figure out another way to distribute resources at some point, having a job won't be it forever.

Re:My warehouse experience sucked too

[Anonymous Coward]

We could make robots to distribute the resources.

Re:My warehouse experience sucked too

[jeffmflanagan]

>We will need to figure out another way to distribute resources at some point, having a job won't be it forever.

The Republicans are going to push back hard against that idea. Having a society that doesn't keep wage costs low and concentrate wealth is considered evil in the right-wing bubble, and they're not going to change until they're the one's suffering.

We've seen the right-wing empathy deficit over and over again. They don't break from supporting toxic policies until their own families are harmed by the policy, and maybe not even then since they've merged evangelical Christianity and the conservative movement, leading them to believe that they're doing the work of a sky-fairy.

Re:My warehouse experience sucked too

[FlyHelicopters]

I'm a Republican, but I think the Republican leadership sold out, I'd fire the lot of them.

Frankly, I don't think the Democrat leadership is any better. The ideals of the Democratic party aren't evil, just some of the ways in which their leaders want to put them into place.

Both sides have good and bad ideas, neither side should have complete control.

The fact is, any government that doesn't provide for the people isn't going to last. People need to eat, need safety, need their general welfare provided for. Too many extreme right wing people believe that government should just let people fail. The mistake with that is that if too many fail, the government will go down with them.

Frankly, if the rich and powerful are going to hold most of the wealthy along with the means of production (in the form of automated factories), then perhaps the rich and powerful should also provide a basic income to everyone. I'm not in the 1%, but I'm in the top 5% of income in the US, so I say this as someone who would be doing the providing.

There is only one catch, one that many people won't like. In return for a monthly basic income and money for food, there must be a population control in there, or people will sit at home and make babies at an impressive rate. So perhaps a $3,000 a month basic income in return for having only one child, with the income being reduced by $500 a month for each additional child. If you can afford it, have all the kids you want, but having more kids shouldn't be making you more money, it should be costing you more money.

Birth control, of course, would be free.

Thoughts?

Re:My warehouse experience sucked too

[narcc]

This sounds familiar.

You don't happen to know a fellow named Ned Ludd do you?

Re:My warehouse experience sucked too

[mythosaz]

There was a trash compactor there that broke a guy's arm allegedly, and they just welded that stupid thing back together.

Welding that guy's arm back together must have been pretty awesome to watch.

Re:My warehouse experience sucked too

[Anonymous Coward]

Welding that guy's arm back together must have been pretty awesome to watch.

He was lucky. It only broke his arm. If it had hit him in the head, he might have lost the ability to infer things from context.

Re:My warehouse experience sucked too

[chris_mahan]

You're pretty close to describing communist China.

Re:My warehouse experience sucked too

[FlyHelicopters]

The difference is that in Communist China, I can't start any business I want without asking permission first.

I can do that here, and I have done that... Anyone who wants to get ahead, more power to them.

If you have another idea, I'm happy to listen, but frankly I find it disgusting that we have hungry and homeless people in the same country that can build a 250 ship Navy and field a worldwide military that spends more than everyone else on Earth combined.

If we can do that, we should not have hungry people.

I don't claim to know all the solutions, frankly others probably have better ideas.

Slavery was once acceptable, today it is considered horrible. What will it take to make hungry people unacceptable? What will it take to consider treating our fellow human beings with anything less than compassion?

I know the world isn't perfect, but I think if we can afford the other things, we can afford to try.

Re:My warehouse experience sucked too

[istartedi]

There's a big problem with punishing people for having children after the fact. The Nth child didn't do anything to deserve growing up in a poorer home. That's why we actually subsidize the Nth child.

If you want to reduce population, look to the countries where it's declining. I don't claim to be any kind of an expert on this kind of thing, but they seem to have some common factors. They tend to be advanced consumer nations where the culture encourages longer education. That seems to delay entry into the workforce, which delays household stability, which discourages people from having children. Of course birth control helps; but you have to have an incentive to use it.

Instead of fining people for having children, you could reward them for avoiding the first child. Each year without a child, the stipend goes up by some percentage. Some people would use this to save up, create a stable home, and bear children. By the time they did that though they will have chewed up some of their fertile years.

Might as well push automation to it's max

[Piata]

Sooner or later humanity will have to deal with the looming "work crisis" so we might as well get this revolution started. One of the big gains of automation should be removing the mudane and insanity inducing tasks required. Sadly the reality seems to be more people ending up in call centers and retail but I don't see how this is sustainable. What's the point in giant mega malls or telemarketers when everyone is too poor to afford anything?

The floor is going to fallout sooner or later so might as well rush the process along.

Re:Might as well push automation to it's max

[Neuronwelder]

Problem is: The people who do have the money are not about to give it up and spread the wealth around.

Re:Might as well push automation to it's max

[gagol]

Long term benefits would be good for them, avoiding a revolution is priceless.

Re:Amazon brutal, but not a convenient liberal cau

[Anonymous Coward]

You're missing out. slashdot goes well a nice Chianti

Re:Amazon brutal, but not a convenient liberal cau

[sjames]

I thought that was right wingers and homosexuals..

As opposed....

[BreakBad]

"unreasonable performance expectations combined with a fundamentally dehumanizing environment." ..... to all the other terrific work environments the UK has to offer.

Re:Amazon brutal, but not a convenient liberal cau

[FlyHelicopters]

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2012/03/19/amazon-com-buys-kiva-systems-for-775-million/

Amazon is working on it, it is just a matter of time.

Re:Amazon brutal, but not a convenient liberal cau

[Unordained]

Yes, it's really amazing we haven't yet declared ourselves mentally ill, for putting people first. I mean, really -- minimum wages? Food and shelter? Safety regulations? Non-discrimination in the workplace? Civil rights? Healthcare? Are we nuts?!?

Re:Amazon brutal, but not a convenient liberal cau

[Jawnn]

No, it's always been a liberal vs conservative issue, because liberals passionately hate anything that's successful without the government being involved.

[citation needed]
Take your time. We'll wait...
/sarcasm

Plus

[Anonymous Coward]

The people who can't get better jobs usually can't get better jobs because they're at higher risk for mental illness from other factors.

I Was a Warehouse Wage Slave, By Mac McClelland,

[Anonymous Coward]

I Was a Warehouse Wage Slave, By Mac McClelland, March/April 2012 Issue, Mother Jones.

"My brief, backbreaking, rage-inducing, low-paying, dildo-packing time inside the online-shipping machine."

Re:Amazon brutal, but not a convenient liberal cau

[Anonymous Coward]

I parsed his double negatives and found that he's a damn liberal!

Bukowski's "Post Office"?

[sugapablo]

Sounds like the novel by Charles Bukowski, "Post Office". But it also sounds like the author/complainer is a bit of a pussy. Sorry. There will always be crappy jobs. Many much worse than this.

11 miles a day

[maroberts]

I think the risks of sitting sedentary at a desk are far worse than doing 1 mile in an hour during each shift

Re:Amazon brutal, but not a convenient liberal cau

[QRDeNameland]

Even worse, the 'political affiliation' portion of said straw man is 100% bullshit, for even more Ewwwwyness.

So what

[SDrag0n]

I worked at a factory for 9 years. It sucked. A lot of people were "lifers" and would be there their entire life. In the warehouse we had a job almost exactly like that.

In a 12 hour shift you would walk around a giant stretch of belts and racks and throw things weighing between 2-40 pounds a piece on a moving belt. I would only throw things on the belt that had a LED indicator next to them with a number because *shock and fucking awe here* that was what was ordered. It was ridiculously hot in the summer (no air conditioning and the belt system was about 30 feet off the ground and heat rises), you walked several miles over the course of the shift in steel toes.

I didn't really like it because it tore up my feet but some people actually preferred to do that most nights. I didn't like working there at all so I put in a lot of effort outside of work and got a job in databases which I love. My point being: boo hoo. If you can't handle it, grow a pair or find a different job. I'm sure the special reporter snowflake felt very dehumanized because no one cares about you very much unless you show you are going to be around for a while and he obviously probably wasn't.

Re:So what

[Nimey]

My point being: boo hoo. If you can't handle it, grow a pair or find a different job.

^^^ privileged white man spotted. Not everyone's able to switch jobs, especially in a down economy, especially if they have dependents.

Re:So what

[Anonymous Coward]

I've done crap like that for 4 years (after 4 years as a tech, my employer started making me do factory work too, so I was there 8 years), but I wouldn't be so hard on the folks there. Yes, I know what you mean about the 'lifers', but I had some friends there and I feel kinda sorry for them. If you don't have money or an education, your future is pretty likely to suck due to something like that.

Thankfully I had a little money and an education, so I got the hell out of there once people started hiring again. I can't say the same for everyone, though.

Re:So what

[SuperKendall]

Did you read the part where he worked hard to study databases so he could get a different job?

Privilege comes with effort. It's not really a secret, and anyone can do it.

Re:So what

[Nimey]

He had the privilege of having the opportunity to study after hours. Not everyone's got that privilege, e.g. people with small children or those who have to work two or three jobs to get by.

Granted there are people who have that opportunity but waste it, but not everyone's got even that.

Re:So what

[Dr_Barnowl]

Bullshit. Are the only person on earth who's not read this yet?

Why poor peoples bad decisions make perfect sense

There are (many) people out there who have no fallback, no slack, constantly skating the line between soul-crushing poverty and homelessness. As the article puts it - sure, you can pull yourself up by your bootstraps. If you can afford bootstraps. It's easy to condemn these people for vices like smoking or drinking but really, would you be without your little vices? And would you retain your sanity for long without them?

You're a low-ID slashdotter. It's overwhelmingly likely that you are a middle aged white guy who's worked in tech most of his life. You had the luxury of a youth where you were not struggling to find enough food to eat and had the time to noodle around with computers or whatever you probably make your living at now.

I'm certainly in the same boat - I too have no real conception of what poverty is like. I remember my parents being cautious with money, and my grandfather helping out to buy my first computer, but I've only seen the shadows on the wall cast by this kind of life when dealing with patients in various clinics and hospital wards. I have some inkling of how tired they must feel, having worked 80-hour weeks as a junior doctor, but that was at a time when I was earning a solid wage and living in a rent-free apartment provided by my employer. I have some inkling of how money being tight feels, having lived through a period when I could quadruple my disposable income and afford an extra beer a week by spending £0.50 less per day on lunch, but I was still eating well and sleeping under my own roof.

Even now I know that if my cushy government job is scrapped and I'm out of work, I have enough skills and contacts and smarts to be earning a comfortable living again within a month or two, and enough savings to last until I am. I have a vast amount of "capital" built up in terms of experience and training and knowledge, and robust health nurtured by a lifetime of being able to afford to eat reasonably healthily. And if the worst comes to the worst, I have parents who own their own house and would be happy to put me up, an ex-wife who earns more than me and would probably support me (we don't get on as spouses any more, but the woman is a compassionate saint), etc, etc, etc.

If I believed in God, I'd have someone to thank every day for the vast privilege of being me.

Ranting like this at you is exactly what I needed, by the way. I've been feeling rather down and lonely since my marriage broke up, but this adds a most welcome measure of perspective. So thank you for the stimulus.

Re:So what

[SDrag0n]

Way to throw out some racist bullshit. Am I white and male, sure. Am I privileged? Not particularly anymore than others in Indiana. I worked that crap job for 9 years, and I would have kept working it as long as necessary to support my family. Sorry I wasn't able to pick where I was born and my race so I could have the privilege of being unprivileged.

Re:So what

[SDrag0n]

I don't know why I took the bait in my previous reply (A bit of a rough morning I suppose). The point I wanted to make in the original post and did poorly at is this: The guy seems to feel dehumanized that he got a scanner which told him what to do and had an expected minimum rate at which to work. I don't know the specifics of Amazon, but in warehouses this is standard. You don't sit down and have a conversation over each item that needs to get shipped, you go get it and ship it out. While having an expected rate isn't always exciting, especially if you are feeling sick etc., typically the software telling you what to get is having you move around in some kind of efficient manner.

At the warehouse I was at, the system knew where I was (based off the last location I scanned) and would send me to my next location based on priority and proximity. What I'm suggesting is that nothing abnormal is going on. I'm sure hundreds of thousands of people around the globe work in similar positions. While it's not intellectually stimulating, I don't know if I would consider it dehumanizing.

Re:So what

[Anonymous Coward]

Nobody is forcing them to breed. Why make it my problem?

Re:So what

[Anonymous Coward]

Privilege comes with effort. It's not really a secret, and anyone can do it.

Utter self-righteous bullshit. If you were any more full of shit, you'd be seconds away from being flushed.

I worked hard to get my Bachelor's degree. You have no fucking idea how hard I worked - I burned out about 6 times.

I have a severe learning disability. It renders office work completely unsuitable for me. Also, retail, and anything involving aperwork.Can't work from plans, can't read a map.

Can't do it well enough to keep a job that requires it. If I put something down and I don't verbalise where it is, I forget it in approximately 50% of cases. Anosognosia is extremely prevelant with my disability, so it could be a much higher number than that. Can't see "the big picture," can't read people - can't tell jokes or sarcasm from seriousness, can't tell when someone's suggesting something subtly. Can't tell when someone's amused, or someone's upset. Can't recall complex directions or messages (complex being say 5 steps), can get lost a few blocks from home. Did I close that window? Is the door locked? Heater off?

I'm sure you can imagine how any job interviews go for me, but just in case you can't:

Interviewer: So, do you have anything you need to tell me about?
Me: Yes. I'm required by law to tell you that I have a learning disability. I did manage to get my Degree, though, so I'm sure I've managed to deal with it.
Interviewer: Oh, I'm sorry, but we've wasted your time: you don't have enough experience.
Me: I've been doing this kind of work for a few years now, and I check every box in your advertisement, plus the ones we discussed earlier.
Interviewer: That's true, however, you don't fill (some new crap that wasn't mentioned before)

I've had more than a few interviews like that, and in one of them I knew they guy they hired in place of me - if they didn't hire me because of a lack of experience, then they shouldn't have hired him: he had never even held a job.

After a while, you start to get the idea that these people are breaking human rights law, and acting in a discriminatory fashion. No amount of hard work can fix that.

Before I submit this message, I want to be very clear here: I worked extremely hard to get my Bachelor's degree, and I can't get a single job with it. Nobody is interested in hiring someone with a disability.

Re:So what

[Anonymous Coward]

Nobody's making it your problem, dipshit. How come you can spell correctly, but you're too stupid to realise that it's not your problem? I guess that means your stupidity has made you our problem.

Let's have a look at what the GP said:

Not everyone's got that privilege, e.g. people with small children or those who have to work two or three jobs to get by.

Wow. The GP has even used e.g., which is abbreviated from the Latin exempli gratia, meaning "for example."

There is a phrase that goes something like "it is better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open your mouth and confirm it." It's a shame you didn't post from a logged in account, so we could all associate a name with how fucking stupid you are.

Re:Amazon brutal, but not a convenient liberal cau

[lgw]

Bah, that's only the old folks. Keep up with the times: we all hate pedophiles now, conservative and liberal alike!

Re:Amazon brutal, but not a convenient liberal cau

[Anonymous Coward]

>No, it's always been a liberal vs conservative issue, because liberals passionately hate anything that's successful without the government being involved.

Conservatives believe everything the fat stinky guy tells them on the radio.

Now that that's out can we act like tech people are mostly intelligent and capable of reason on here?

Re:Amazon brutal, but not a convenient liberal cau

[fredrated]

"My liberal family members are hypocrites, therefore all liberals are hypocrites"
Your conservative reasoning is awesome.

Re:Amazon brutal, but not a convenient liberal cau

[0123456]

Minimum wages, if set above the market wage, just put the poorest out of work, or into illegal work below the minimum wage, because they can no longer do anything worth paying for.

Re:Amazon brutal, but not a convenient liberal cau

[Anonymous Coward]

...and fava beans?

Re:Amazon brutal, but not a convenient liberal cau

[Unordained]

Really? Because I'm pretty sure the standard conservative argument is that if you create an obstacle, people will always "find a way", and in fact you should purposefully do so. Don't give them food or shelter, and they'll magically educate and empower themselves.

Re:Amazon brutal, but not a convenient liberal cau

[CraftyJack]

Thanksgiving: It's like the /. comments, but with turkey and alcohol.

Fixed it for you.

Not even alcohol can fix it. Not even alcohol.

Re:But!!!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't understand the logic of your point. No one is saying unemployment is great, they're saying you shouldn't treat fellow human beings like crap. If you boss announced tomorrow you'd be working for minimum wage would you go 'awesome, at least its a job!' or immediately resign and go somewhere that treats you better?

Just like Manna

[omtinez]

I actually interviewed for a position at Amazon HQ in Seattle that worked on the software that "guides" the warehouse workers through the maze. I can't disclose details, but it sounded an awful lot like the story that has been posted several times here already: http://marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm

PD: I didn't get the position and, looking back at it, I'm glad

Re:Amazon brutal, but not a convenient liberal cau

[0123456]

Really? Because I'm pretty sure the standard conservative argument is that if you create an obstacle, people will always "find a way", and in fact you should purposefully do so.

Maybe you could try dealing with real people, and not just making them up in your head.

Re:Amazon brutal, but not a convenient liberal cau

[Anonymous Coward]

If unemployed nerds start Stuxnetting the robot's control servers Amazon might end up with exploding warehouses or bosses being skewered on the end of thrashing robot arms.

Crybabies

[nurb432]

Millions have worked on assembly lines ( and similar jobs ) for generations and they did just fine.

Sounds like more of the 'me me me' crap. Fire their ass.

Never seen anything like that.

[luis_a_espinal]

I assume that he was simply unused to being on his feet all day or maybe overweight or has badly fitting shoes.

Or maybe...like many if not the vast majority of warehouses, they have hard concrete floors, which are brutal on the feet. The husband of one of my co-workers' works at Home Depot with the concrete floor, he is slim and in good shape, and has tried every orthopedic shoe solution available and still it's problematic. And I know for me personally, I can walk or hike for hours on end without a problem, but more than 30 minutes in a Home Depot or Costco on the concrete floors and my feet and calves are aching.

I worked at the Home Depot for two years, and I never got what you described. I never met one HD worker who complained about chronic foot pain due to hard concrete floors. I trust this observation because we, Home Depot workers always complained about other physical things: like dust from the Building Materials and Flooring departments. Back pains (the company gave us elastic back braces to help with lifting heavy stuff). Incredibly rude customers. Getting our fingers smashed when carrying tiles or concrete blocks or whatever.

We came in all shapes and sizes, male and female. We even had a joke, that whenever we finished our day, we would have been "Home Depot'ed" (beat up to crap by work.) But I never heard people complaining about chronic foot pain from walking 8+ hours on the concrete floor.

I'm not saying that what you describe is false. But it is not something that I ever experienced, or witnessed, when I worked at a Home Depot store.

Re:Never seen anything like that.

[Anonymous Coward]

Lucky. My partner works on concrete floors all day. She limps all night.

I just spent the day painting a set, on concrete floors, and now my feet and ankles are killing me.

Not to worry droids.

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to worry because Amazon is working on replacing all human workers with robots. When these people lose their jobs they won't have to worry about the job stress anymore. Welcome to the rain forest.

Working at the BBC

[Anonymous Coward]

is an effect of severe mental illness.

What's The Problem?

[Greyfox]

Can't they just have another beer?

Robots?

[Anonymous Coward]

---
"We are machines, we are robots, we plug our scanner in, we're holding it, but we might as well be plugging it into ourselves", he said.

"We don't think for ourselves, maybe they don't trust us to think for ourselves as human beings, I don't know."
---

So why doesn't Amazon just use robots in their warehouse in the first place? Warehouses with product-moving robots are nothing new. I would guess that you can probably store stuff higher up and more efficiently with robots to pick them in a safer manner, too.

WHAT?!?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's an out right lie!!! I've been working at amazon for years and the pink elephant who lives in my closet assures me I am completely sane.

Increase

[manu0601]

Amazon workers are expected to always improve over their previous performances. That sounds like the perfect recipe for burn out.

Doesn't this describe most people's work?

[Anonymous Coward]

" unreasonable performance expectations combined with a fundamentally dehumanizing environment."

Perhaps this describes what's wrong with our world and why we might not be getting better.

Boo Hoo

[Anonymous Coward]

Try working in a call centre where your primary function is a corporate punch bag for angry customers

Re:Amazon brutal, but not a convenient liberal cau

[Xest]

Which is interesting because this documentary revealed that Amazon were getting paid tens of millions to build some of the UK warehouses to create jobs.

So what happens if those jobs are automated? does the tax payer get their money back?

Of course I don't blame Amazon, the councils/governments in question were utter fools for subsidising a company as big as Amazon including building roads explicitly for them and are getting what they deserve, but I'm intrigued all the same.

Re:Amazon brutal, but not a convenient liberal cau

[Xest]

Um, in this case the government is involved. The documentary revealed that Amazon had been paid £10 million by the Scottish government and £8 million by the Welsh assembly to build two of the warehouses in question.

Amazon is successful in large part precisely because it has been receiving government subsidy and has also been allowed to continue avoiding it's corporation tax obligations.

My job promotes mental illness

[Anonymous Coward]

And I mean that quite literally. It makes them into managers!

Re:Amazon brutal, but not a convenient liberal cau

[Shakrai]

avoid the modern slavery in electronics production.

Good luck with that. :)

This is about Amazon jobs

[ToddInSF]

Not the job in a warehouse at some other company you had, years ago.

Comments here are lacking the details of this specific issue.

I know people who've worked for Amazon. The shifts are long, the breaks are useless because the walking to the break area eats up half your break time. The pay for the toll the job does doesn't compensate for the the physical wear on your body, and the job is a classic dead-end job.

And Amazon is a perfect example of an evil monopoly that got that way buy brutally undercutting competition to the point of putting them out of business. Accomplished by Amazon securing political favors and payoffs.

Instead of looking at Amazon policies, which are nothing to be proud of or an advocate of, people here are relating irrelevant experiences with this company. It's not the same thing. Look at where Amazon's major US facilities are, where there aren't any jobs and there's high unemployment in "right to work" states where workers are treated like shit, and disposable.

Then decide if you really want to do business with Amazon, or encourage your friends and relatives to do business with them. Amazon COULD make those jobs significantly less horrible, but there is no motivation to do so, because here in the US we make excuses for, and accept that workers are disposable and abuseable, and that executives "earn" their bloated salaries by doing so.

It's disgusting and it's everyone's fault for permitting it.

Re:Welcome to a world run by Republicans

[genner]

Amazon is a USA company. Why try to defend them by repeating the lie that they aren't?

If they do business in the UK they follow UK laws. Republicans get no say in the matter.