Slashdot Mirror
Ask Slashdot: Why So Hard Landing Interviews In Seattle Versus SoCal?
An anonymous reader writes "I have been trying to make the move to the Seattle, WA area. I liked the weather, the nature, the scenery and the tech environment. However, for whatever reason it seems like interviews are hard to come by. As a MS Stack software developer in LA, I barely had to do anything and recruiters always come knocking, either via LinkedIn or from past connections. Not to mention in general I got phone interviews for easily .8 of the positions I applied for. I wanted to finally make the move and fulfill a live long dream to live in Seattle. So I have been applying for positions in the greater Seattle, WA (King County) area. So far the ratio of positions applied to phone interviews is a dismal .1. Which is terrible considering the economy was much worse when I was actively looking for job in LA. Something isn't right because I am still getting offers for interviews here in SoCal, but not much from where I really wanted to be. What could I be doing wrong? Why such a contrast? Is the IT market in Seattle in poor shape? Or may be I just lack the proper connections in a new area? Am I just being screened out immediately for not being local? Or is it the prevalence of bigger corporations vs. smaller startups? And frankly as nice as the city is I can't move unless there's a healthy IT market to thrive by. I hope someone can point me in the right direction."
You seriously like the weather up here? Have you been here anytime other than July - September?
I know a LOT of people that moved here after visiting in the summer... they don't realize what the weather is like most of the time.
#DeleteChrome
MS Stack software developer
I am just taking a stab in the dark here as I don't really know, but maybe there are a lot of "MS Stack software" developers in the home of MS. If they got a ton of them already in town why import more?
I'm hip-shooting, but it could be that as an LA resident, you're experiencing some prejudice. They go months in Seattle with nothing but gray skies and/or rain, and you have to remain productive. The lack of interest could be due to the perceived risk that you might not be able to hack the gloomy weather.
I'm in the same boat, btw. I live in Santa Monica, and I love the weather here. I would prefer to live amoungst Washingtonians if for no other reason than higher quality conversation, but I know I couldn't handle the Seattle weather for long.
I'm guessing using decimal notation is throwing them. Check your resume and make sure it doesn't say that you give an effort ratio of 1.2
I suggest look at the job postings of Amazon, MS and others and see what areas they most desire. I am a CS/ECE grad and in Raleigh and almost once a month I have someone from MS or Amazon ping me about a position. I know for a fact both Amazon and MS love CS programmers, algorithms, distributed computing etc. If those or other similar buzzwords are present in your resume on linkedin or elsewhere, you will get an email soon.
See exhibits (a), (b).
Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
It's kind of different out here. Back in Detroit for interviews, I was normally put in front of a computer and asked to write code. Pretty practical, and I did well. For whatever reason, out here everyone loves the whiteboard, run though a binary tree on a whiteboard, wtf does that have to do what what you are actually going to be doing? Nothing, but Google, Amazon and MS all have you do it, so everyone else copies it. Hard to put you on the spot like that over the phone. Also your timing isn't the best, right before X-mas holidays. PS Why doesn't slashdot like paragraphs?
Absolutely. There's a very low probablility that I'd ever hire someone named "Anonymous Reader".
Actually this really is true. There is a general dislike of people from Cal. They blame people moving in from Cal for the outrageous cost of housing. And they think of people from Cal as being slackers.
We're all full-up on Californians. Stop applying here, stop moving here, and for the love of god, stop building Mexican-villa style buildings everywhere you go. It looks terrible next to an evergreen tree.
There is, in the city of Seattle, a certain company with a legendary history in the world of computing. It has been known as... The Microsoft.
Considering the turnover rate for Microsoft employment, Windows stack developers are probably as common there as waitresses with SAG cards are in LA.
Your problem is that your skills are a rare commodity in LA but common as dirt in Seattle
You're from California. That's the problem.
He's right.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
But as for "Mujib Gandaharik", he goes to the top of the list.
Laughter is the Spackle of the Soul.
Wow. You would think throwing out so many insults, that you would learn how to spell properly and use basic grammar. As it is, you sound like a semi-literate, drooling moron.
It's hard to imagine that a tech company would screen candidates based on area codes these days. I've been living in Seattle for over five years and still have a 415 (San Francisco) area code. I think people tend not to change their phone numbers when moving anymore.
That being said, I'm graduating soon with a PhD in bioinformatics, have an MS in computer science, and I'm not getting any interviews with large tech companies in the area. Maybe I do need a local phone number...
This! The technical part of most of the companies I've worked for in Seattle were run by Indians that would only hire Indians if they are able to. My last name is Lee so it sounds like it could be Asian even though it is British. I changed my resume to just my initials to hide my common American first and middle name, and I got many more phone interviews. What really helps in the phone screen is to add in a few archaic phrases like maths, do the needful, passing out (graduating), discuss about (can we discuss about the job?), years back (that project was two years back rather than two years ago), or say "do one thing" then mention several things. That will land you an interview in the Seattle area.
But seriously, the five of the last seven start-ups I worked for in Seattle required sixty or more hours per week. Most of them refused to hire white employees because so many refused to work past 7pm or every weekend. That's why it's so hard to even get a phone interview in Seattle if you have an American name.
I've found that same problem before: recruiters look at the place where you currently live, not where you've said you're interested in working. So if I say I live in Los Angeles and am interested in jobs in Seattle, I'd expect to get lots of calls for... Los Angeles. When I switch and use the address of a friend in the area I want jobs in as where I live, suddenly I get calls for the right area. I don't see any way around this as long as the recruiters are ignoring the information in the profile this way.
Supply and demand: people refuse to move to California because the taxes and cost of living are sky-high, so there are more openings that go unfilled.
There is, outside the city of Seattle, a certain company with a legendary history in the world of tech support. It has been known as... ACS, now a Xerox company.
Considering the turnover rate for ACS employment, there's always space answering phones for Verizon Wireless through them.
And half of the people I've worked with in the Internet industry ten years ago passed through their doors in the last five.
Laughter is the Spackle of the Soul.
Most companies prefer local candidates. When they see that you are not local they may be crossing you out. They probably don't even want to pay to bring you up for an interview. You may want to note that you are looking to move at your own expense and like the Seattle area.
It's hard to imagine that a tech company would screen candidates based on area codes these days. I've been living in Seattle for over five years and still have a 415 (San Francisco) area code. I think people tend not to change their phone numbers when moving anymore.
That being said, I'm graduating soon with a PhD in bioinformatics, have an MS in computer science, and I'm not getting any interviews with large tech companies in the area. Maybe I do need a local phone number...
I would bet anything but the real big companies always does. Local hires (and candidates when it comes time to interview) are a lot cheaper. If your cell phone doesn't match where you live, you should indicate where you live on your resume.
The GPs suggestion of pretending to live in Seattle is a bad idea. I've hired LOTS of people over the years, and if anyone ever pulled that, their resume would be round filed no matter how good they might be.
IMO, if he wants to live in Seattle, and wants to find a job there, his best bet is to just move.
he was asking about Seattle. I was trying to be informative - overdressing for interviews here is a no-no
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
I realize it's a weird personal quirk, but I actually prefer gloomy weather to bright sunny days.
It's pretty simple. It's because you aren't there.
Move first. Then look for jobs. If you can't do that - forget it.
Unless you have some very specific and needed skills, you need to already be local. And you won't fool anybody with a PO Box. Companies do not want to make the kind of commitment (if only moral commitment) that would be required, even if they don't pay relocation. It raises the bar for insuring it is a good match, and makes it more difficult for them to let you go if it doesn't work out.
What it boils down to is your location is a complication to prospective employers. Why introduce a complication when (as others have pointed out) there are likely plenty of people with your skills who already live there? Nobody wants to screw around interviewing somebody who might or might not move to Seattle.
If you are currently employed, you find a job before you move. Anything else just shows idiocy.
Remember that the need for Microsoft developers will soon decline, if it has not already done so.
Most devices run Linux.
Mobile phones are dominated by Linux, as are most other mobile devices such as eBooks, and Linux is gaining ground in tables with Android & Chrome O/S. Linux dominates servers: note that essentially all Valve, Dig, and Google servers (I expect that they probably do run the odd Microsoft server, although I have no evidence of this) run Linux - not Microsoft. At least 95% of the top 500 supercomputers run Linux.
More and more companies and organisations are adopting Linux as their primary O/S on the desktop like the French Gendarmerie (http://www.zdnet.com/french-police-move-from-windows-to-ubuntu-linux-7000021479) and the local Government of a region in Spain (https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/community/osor/news/spains-extremadura-starts-switch-40000-government-pcs-open-source).
At home we have 2 Linux workstations (3, if you count my old development box I normally keep powered down), 2 Linux laptops, 2 Android phones, an Apple desktop, and an iPhone - for 2 adults and a teenager. Note no Microsoft boxen.
So for professional reasons, you should at least be investigating moving your skill base to Linux!
Given your alternative, that Taco Bell hacienda style isn't *that* bad.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
I think companies don't want to bother interviewing and recruiting for someone who's not local. If offered the job, chances are that you'll not actually follow-through with the relocation. I know when we go looking, and we get someone from out of town, they almost always drop out of the running, or can't move in the time-frame required.
It's a chicken and egg thing. Potential employees don't want to move till they get a job. Employers don't want to hire anyone not local.
I've lived in Seattle since 1996 (and 5 years in the '80s) and getting interviews as a techie here has ALWAYS sucked. At times I've had over 200 resumes out and gotten two or three interviews out of it. The OP's experience is not atypical.
"Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
I agree with not lying about where you live, but finding a job ahead of time should not be that difficult. Vacation and visit, send lots of emails and most importantly be HONEST about what your plans are. Moving without a job, as the AC points out is a bad idea.
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
I moved country (from Australia to New Zealand) and it was the best thing I ever did.
I want to move again (now to SoCal or the Bay Area but visa issues yay) and am really looking forward to it.
People SHOULD move and experience life in a new area. Especially in a different country where possible.
You can tell how powerful someone is by the magnitude of the crime they can commit and be able to get away with.
If you are currently employed, you find a job before you move. Anything else just shows idiocy.
If you want to live somewhere bad enough you just move, plain and simple.
What shows idiocy is complaining about something and never doing it.
You'll never get anywhere in life without taking chances.
Please consider reapplying after...
So only hipster douchebags need apply?
That's how I like it. The sun just causes cancer and makes you wrinkle. That said,
Three guys are camping, one from Washington, one from Kentucky, and one from California. They're sitting around chatting when the guy from Kentucky pulls out a bottle of whiskey, takes a big swig, corks it, throws it in the air, whips out a pistol, and shoots the bottle before it hits the ground.
He then turns to his slightly shocked companions and says "no worries -- we got lots of good whiskey where I'm from."
The Californian then does the same thing with a bottle of wine -- takes a swig of wine, corks the bottle, tosses it, and shoots it before it hits the ground, remarking "no worries -- where I'm from, we've got lots of good wine."
The guy from Washington pulls out a bottle of Hales, pops the top, drinks it all, carefully sets the bottle down so it doesn't break, and shoots the Californian dead. The guy from Kentucky is shocked, but the Washingtonian says "no worries, where I'm from we have lots of Californians, but I really do need to recycle this bottle."
What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
You should move here to Phoenix, AZ. Blue skies maybe 340 days of the year.
Before Global Warming/Climate Change...
F'ing hot but everywhere has good AC, cold beer and most houses have swimming pools.
Now/After Global Warming
F'ing hot but everywhere has good AC, cold beer and most houses have swimming pools.
Years ago I was in Seattle and had a greater Washington mailing address and Area code. I was getting no responses. After that I changed to a 206 cell and gave a friends mailing address off Cap Hill. It made a huge difference. Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal
Microsoft has been kicking the finest programmers they can recruit from around the world off their local Redmond/Bellevue porch at a rate of 10% of their employee population per year, every year for over a decade. Naturally that leads to a local surplus of people with those skills because they tend to not move far if they can avoid it.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
Is pants ok? Or do you cool Seattle-dudes go full caveman?
that's a good question - a lot of people wear skirts actually, but that's a choice.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
That's unfortunate, because most bay area companies will pay moving expenses. I actually won't work for a company that doesn't, even if I don't need to move to work for it - it's an indication, to me, of other things that could be wrong.
MS Stack software developer
says it all. I almost stopped reading at that. MS stack is going bye-bye. And if there's one thing that is *not* lacking in *Seatle* it's MS 'talent'.
Try this: Advertise yourself as a Linux stack guy of same skill level, and look how many interviews you get with that. I'd bet measurably more.
Good luck.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
I just moved from Seattle to Phoenix, strangely enough it was because my job in Seattle ended and I couldn't get another job. The tech market for interviewees sucks in Seattle, I knew about the job closing for 6 months and still couldn't find a job there. So in a lark I applied to a job in Phoenix/Chandler. Had a phone call from them in 2 hours, an on-site scheduled 2 hours later. Call the day after the interview saying they're getting an offer together.
The job turned out to be about 2 levels above what I was applying for in Seattle. Love the weather here and don't regret leaving Seattle at all. They actually appreciate 15+ years of software engineering experience here. In Seattle all they seemed to care about was big O notation, not what you can actually do.
Software Engineer & Writer of Military Science Fiction and Fantasy Blog: petermwright.com Twitter: WrightPeterM
1. Be honest about your address and intentions. If someone applies to my "local applicants only" job with an address in CA I don't even bother to read the resume. However, if you mention in your introduction email (cover letter?) that you want to move to the area and plan to be making a trip up in the next couple of weeks ("to visit some friends", "for a couple of interviews", whatever), I'll give your resume the same consideration as I would to a local candidate. I might even fast-track a phone screen if you look good, so I can schedule an interview to take advantage of that time you'd be here. Do your best to make your trip description emphasize how serious you are about looking for a job in the area -- it will bypass the concern a lot of small companies have paying to fly you into town for an interview (not worth it with so many great local candidates), and should hopefully prevent you from sounding presumptuous about expecting an interview.
2. Find some good recruiters. I don't know a single tech worker who enjoys dealing with recruiters (most put off the same vibe as the stereotypical used car salesman) but there are a lot of VC-funded startups that hire exclusively through recruiting firms. Reach out to big guys like greythorn and volt, and do some searching on linkedin and other sites for smaller firms (which often have much more interesting work). Reaching out directly to them will help you get the message across that you want to move, and in turn they will help convince the hiring manager that you're worth talking to despite currently being out of state.
3. You mentioned Seattle and MS in the same description. Be aware that there is a giant invisible line down the middle of Lake Washington. Though there is some MS stuff (at least on the web side of things, which is what I know best) in Seattle, there is a lot more of it on the East Side (Bellevue, Redmond) closer to Microsoft itself.
4. It may help to get a local phone number, but honestly if you mark your non-206 number as "cell" and direct eyes toward your email address, I can't think how it would hurt your chances. FWIW, unless asked on a job application form at a big company, I'm not sure I've ever given my phone number out to a prospective employer until asked for it in order to schedule a phone screen.
5. Yes, there really are that many good candidates in the area. You're competing with locals who are more readily available for interviews or followup interviews, so you need to stand out more than they do. And it's not just about weighing the costs of bringing a non-local candidate in for an interview -- I personally hate giving video interviews and will do everything I can to avoid them (I get so much more out of the interview if I can actually interact with a candidate; after all, personality-fit is as important as technical competence).
6. On the other hand, there really are a lot of good jobs here, too (Amazon's hiring spree high pay has made it a pretty competitive market, too). Consider broadening your skill set. I know there is often a wide cultural gap between the kinds of devs who focus on MS vs Linux, but if I'm just looking for a good developer/engineer rather than a language expert, I'll be much more interested in you if your resume has more than just the one stack (Ruby+dotNet, dotNet+Java, etc). You could also take this as a "don't complain about picky companies if you're limiting yourself to a single technology subset".
7. Be willing to work contracts. Microsoft itself is well-known for preferring to hire people through staffing agencies (corp-to-corp contract) rather than through direct hiring, and they're not alone among the larger companies. The staffing company becomes your employer while you work the contract (avoid 1099 contracts unless you fully understand the tax implications), and you don't have to feel too bad if you leave for a better gig a few months into the contract.
Anyway, I hope this helps someone.
Do you really need reason for beer? Wingman Brewers
You haven't said anything about *what* kind of company you want to work for? Established? Startup? Tech? Non-Tech?
There are half a dozen fortune 500 companies that are *not* regular old tech companies that are either head quartered or have major operations within 20 miles of downtown Seattle. Many of these companies have huge IT departments running their ecommerce sites or internal systems (think Nordstrom's, Costco, Starbucks, Expeditors, PACCAR, Boeing). And that doesn't count a dozen or so other major regional companies such as the local hospital systems and insurers. Many of these companies have a multitude of openings and often times opportunities for quick advancement because Amazon and several other local companies have hired away many of their employees over the last 2 - 3 years by throwing gobs of money at them.
Also as several people have noted the unemployment rate in Seattle is low but not so low that people will pay for your relocations, unless your skills are phenomenal.