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CBS 60 Minutes: NSA Speaks Out On Snowden, Spying
An anonymous reader writes "This week CBS New's 60 Minutes program had a broadcast segment devoted to the NSA, and additional online features. It revealed that the first secret Snowden stole was the test and answers for a technical examination to get a job at NSA. When working at home, Snowden covered his head and screen with a hood so that his girlfriend couldn't see what he was doing. NSA considered the possibility that Snowden left malicious software behind and removed every computer and cable that Snowden had access to from its classified network, costing tens of millions of dollars. Snowden took approximately 1.7 million classified documents. Snowden never approached any of multiple Inspectors General, supervisors, or Congressional oversight committee members about his concerns. Snowden's activity caught the notice of other System Administrators. There were also other interesting details, such as the NSA has a highly competitive intern program for High School students that are given a Top Secret clearance and a chance to break codes that have resisted the efforts of NSA's analysts — some succeed. The NSA is only targeting the communications, as opposed to metadata, of less than 60 Americans. Targeting the actual communications of Americans, rather than metadata, requires a probable cause finding and a specific court order. NSA analysts working with metadata don't have access to the name, and can't listen to the call. The NSA's work is driven by requests for information by other parts of the government, and there are about 31,000 requests. Snowden apparently managed to steal a copy of that document, the 'crown jewels' of the intelligence world. With that information, foreign nations would know what the US does and doesn't know, and how to exploit it."
We know who your friends are we know where your children go to school, keep quiet and it will all be aright......
So it sounds like it will be pro-NSA spin-doctoring from our crony-corporatist media.
The character assassination of Snowden begins.
>Snowden never approached any of multiple Inspectors General, supervisors, or Congressional oversight committee members about his concerns.
Good idea too. Everyone else who did (that we know of) was fired and investigated. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Andrews_Drake
>The NSA is only targeting the communications, as opposed to metadata, of less than 60 Americans. Targeting the actual communications of Americans, rather than metadata, requires a probable cause finding and a specific court order.
We don't believe you, and quit targeting my metadata without a warrant.
So how exactly was he supposed to contact his supervisors if the whole operation is corrupt anyway???? This sounds like NSA BS.
Who in their right mind would believe anything the NSA says? They have lied to everyone about everything.
"The ferrets, they're every where I tell you!"
Could this be more biased in favour of the NSA? I don't think so. It reads as pure propaganda.
The fact is - the NSA, and the US government, has consistently been lying to the American people. Consistently. The Guardian publishes one thing, the US responds, and then the Guardian publishes another clearly indicating how the US government lied. Time and time again. How many times do we have to go over this?
Excuse me while I go take care of my sudden onset nausea...
NSA considered the possibility that Snowden left malicious software behind and removed every computer and cable that Snowden had access to from its classified network, costing tens of millions of dollars.
Because next time I write a virus, I will use it to infect a UTP cable.
PlusFive Slashdot reader for Android. Can post comments.
Does this just seem like the heaviest kind of propaganda on how bad snowden is. the whole thing is just emphasizing how 'horrible' he is and making no mention of how unacceptable Almost all NSA actions are. Its when I post to these articles that I wonder how much slashdot articles get red flagged.
Isn't stealing the answers part of the exam to get into a spy agency?
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Never asked the obvious questions. "If you really aren't storing all our emails and phone calls, then why do you need to build a new $1.5 billion facility to hold exabytes of data storage? Either you're lying or you're guilty of a SERIOUS misappropriation of funds. So which is it?"
The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
Other than lies, lies and more damn lies, what else can NSA come up with ?
No matter how slick or how polished their lies be, NSA's lies are still LIES.
NSA has betrayed America.
NSA has betrayed the Constitution.
NSA is a rogue organization within the government of the United States of America.
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
It's probably true. They only TARGET the data of 60 Americans. The millions of others are just spied on by 'accident'.
Not having access to 60-minutes in the UK, it would seem the main thrust of the NSA's argument is that the system has checks and balances for exactly this sort of situation, and that Snowden should have notified the right people about his findings rather than go public. What it doesn't seem to mention is that these very same people should already have known about this - everyone whose responsibility it was to either refrain from these actions or say "No" when someone else asked if they were allowed had already said "Yes" so I think removing the system's responsibility for self-regulation by public release in that context is exactly the right thing to do.
By trying to paint Snowden's actions as irresponsible by failing to follow the preapproved script for this sort of violation, they are also trying to cover the arses of the self-regulators by claiming ignorance of the matter on their behalf. It's simultaneously a smear-attack on Snowden and an attempt to save the faces of the people he's made like utter f***wits. The logic-fail in this case is that they can't cover up what we already know from their own documents happened, so the ignorance play only makes the self-regulation argument even weaker as, prior to Snowden's releases, it had already comprehensively failed to protect those in it's charge over a long period of time.
I mean, the Fox network sucks at the government teats as much as anybody else.
I am surprised with the fact that CBS was chosen over Fox network.
I always thought that NSA would choose Fox to be their media anchor. I was wrong.
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
Test and answers to get hired? They are saying he didnt pass on his own (rather, hacked their systems before he got hired in order to get hired) or went from zero to evil the second he was given access and just went all grabby? Or are they saying he planned to open a "work for the nsa now, ask me how" website?
will work for dragon quest localization
So an organization whose existence is predicated on lying, and whose employees, from the top of the food chain to the bottom of the food chain, have done nothing but lie to their country, from the top of the food chain to the bottom of the food chain, goes on a national TV show and says stuff that we are supposed to believe?
Either the NSA is staffed by utter morons, or they think we are the utter morons. There is a huge believability deficit in that agency, and an enormous cognitive disconnect among its leaders. It's yet another federal agency that needs a large funding reduction, and whose leaders need many years of therapy.
"Targeting the actual communications of Americans, rather than metadata, requires a probable cause finding and a specific court order."
Yeah, right.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57589495-38/nsa-spying-flap-extends-to-contents-of-u.s-phone-calls/
Nothing that has been revealed so far shows any wrongdoing. Hell, half the civil libertarians probably wanted to find something to impeach Obama with, that is there whole interest in this.
Having a computer store metadata that you don't try to hide from private companiees just isn't that big of a deal. And it sure doesn't warrant one story a day from Slashdot...
Is that the NSA is now an arm of law enforcement. The new FISA statute requires them to turn over actionable law enforcement intelligence they acquire during lawful FISA spying. That means literally any crime, not just serious violations of national security. If the NSA's spying still was only legally usable against you where your behavior intersects with federal war powers (meaning you're a terrorist, spy or foreign mole) I doubt most people would care.
What the NSA should be doing is lobbying to have that part of FISA not only removed, but replaced with black letter of the law statutory language that unequivocally makes their intelligence inadmissable in a court of law under penalty of tainting every charge prosecutors bring including ones wholly unrelated to what the NSA gathered. This would make the NSA useless to law enforcement and allow them to get back to focusing on supporting the military which was their main reason for being in the first place.
..." steal a copy of that document, the 'crown jewels' of the intelligence world.".
Like the nsa would be a noble org. that has 'crown jewels'. He just copied a part of an evil masterplan, which belong so some people you won't want to mess with.
>> When working at home, Snowden covered his head and screen with a hood so that his girlfriend couldn't see what he was doing.
Did I read correctly that the NSA allows WFH? Maybe I can suggest a solution...
Having a computer store metadata that you don't try to hide from private companiees just isn't that big of a deal.
Giving it to specific private companies or individuals != giving it to the government. The fact that you even try to say that this isn't a big deal shows that you're profoundly ignorant of history and disgustingly naive. Vanish. You don't belong here, scum.
Nothing like a good old-fashioned witch hunt spurred on by the likes of 60 Minutes to start off a Monday morning. Next thing we know, Snowden will be some kind of closeted pervert who likes to kick puppies.
"Joslyn: So the idea here is we’re looking at a sequence of numbers, and we want to determine whether they’re random or not random.
John Miller: How are you approaching that? Can you show me?
Joe: We are looking at this data here and it is a bunch of random numbers on the screen.
John Miller: That looks a tad overwhelming.
Joe: It is."
They are trying to determine if the numbers are random by looking at them on the screen? If this was how they were doing cryptoanalysis at the NSA, we could all sleep better. Of course, as noted above, there's no reason to believe any information provided in an obvious propaganda piece like this one.
Sounds like he was channeling Joseph Smith.
In the balance of power/abuses, I'd still consider the NSA more appropriate than say... the Chinese/Russian equivalent ...
Just look at the modus operandi of the apologists ...
They are actually TRYING VERY HARD to compare an apple to an orange !
RUSSIA and CHINA are NOT democratic countries.
THEIR GOVERNMENTS are RUTHLESS and VERY AUTOCRATIC, and they have the power to PERSECUTE, and even EXECUTE their people WITHOUT REASON.
I am from China. I know what I am talking about !
On the other hand, the United States of America is supposed to be A DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY - where *LAWS* are obeyed, and even the government has to OBEY THE LAWS.
NSA is NOT an apparatus of the Russian nor an apparatus of the Chinese government.
NSA is a branch of the government of the United States of America.
Which means, NSA has the OBLIGATION to operate ACCORDING TO WHAT HAS BEEN CLEARLY STATED IN THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
Has NSA done that ?
Nope.
NSA has VIOLATED the CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA !
Apologist, you are forewarned !
We will hunt you down, no matter where the fuck you are !
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
I remember when 60 minutes weren't lying media whores. You really think "forbes" would like about this?
http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2013/12/16/an-nsa-coworker-remembers-the-real-edward-snowden-a-genius-among-geniuses/
Salut,
Jacques
Having a computer store metadata that you don't try to hide from private companiees just isn't that big of a deal.
Actually many people do try to hide them from private companies. But even if this statement was entirely true, there is a big difference between what a corporation can do with the metadata vs what the government can do. Last time I checked, Google isn't able to send out a drone to extrajudicially kill a US citizen.
"The NSA is only targeting the communications, as opposed to metadata, of less than 60 Americans." - yeah right...
I believe that was Snowden's point, and the central theme of my standatd complaint in these threads -- that this is just a procedural "you ought to get permission" thing which, of course, a G. Gordon Liddy type agent, who's really working for some political bigwig, could simply ignore the rules and listen in to the conversations of political opponents. Even "just the metadata", connecting politicians to each other, planners, and donors, could be exploited.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
he forgot to say in 1917.
The NSA is only targeting the communications, as opposed to metadata, of less than 60 Americans
Note the multiple qualifiers here: communications, of Americans. They capture metadata for every other Americans, and voice data for the rest of the world.
Snowden's activity caught the notice of other System Administrators
And they did nothing about it until Snowden has fled to Hong Kong. Good to see my tax dollars being spent on those government employees with full pensions and top secret clearance.
NSA considered the possibility that Snowden left malicious software behind and removed every computer and cable that Snowden had access to from its classified network, costing tens of millions of dollars
Sometimes when watching their foes (or more likely, their fellow citizens), they forgot to look out for their own kind. Expenses well deserved.
The NSA's work is driven by requests for information by other parts of the government
How can we know that this is true? There are multiple gag orders preventing companies from disclosing those requests, and the NSA has not been forthcoming in those either. Say what you want, NSA, I'll choose to believe it when I see the evidence of it.
Regardless of CBS' political leanings, you'd have thought that the idea of CBS using John Miller, an ex-employee of the director of National Intelligence, and someone touted to be in the running for a top NYPD intelligence job, to be the interviewer would have stunk to high heaven. There was no criticism, no pushback and no attempt to suggest that the NSA has been doing anything wrong. Holy crickey ... did the NSA simply script this and hand it to CBS?
DaveyJJ
Clear signal that they are still lying. The director of the NSA had no problem nor consequences for lying to the congress, and Obama had no problem lying to the people multiple times. And you are trusting everything to people that intentionally is lying to you, and trying at all cost to catch the person that could inform you what the truth behind all those lies?
The LOVEINT scandal is one of the perfect examples of how that statement is patently bullshit. Unless they're going to claim that the FISA court is giving out LOVEINT warrants now.
[Amber is being introduced to the audience as a special guest 'runner'] ...Later, she cheated on College exams. Then she had sexual relations with three, sometimes even four men within a single year. Then came Mad Dog Ben Richards, her *Confederate*, her LOVER!
Phil Hiton:
Amber: That's a lie!
Damon Killian: Let's reunite these two lovebirds!
[audience cheers]
Damon Killian: [Amber is sent down to the game zone]
"
Accidental Espionage Division
This episode of 60 minutes was brought to you by NSA
All of those things would be good qualities for someone working at the NSA had he simply kept his mouth shut. But since he publicly embarrassed the agency they now need to assassinate his character. Once they start poisoning the well, their good little parrots will simply carry the meme on until Snowden becomes tantamount to the Devil.
Bashing Snowden only puts them in a position of incompetence and carelessness.
Him being able to cheat on the test, accessing stuff he shouldn't be and walking away with who knows how much data and them having to throw away machines that cost tens of millions (come on!) only means that the all mighty NSA, the legendary agency that thrived on the image of being the pinnacle of national security is as incompetent and careless about how they spent public money as any governmental agency out there.
Am I missing something?
Curiously yours, crip.
Snowden never approached any of multiple Inspectors General, supervisors, or Congressional oversight committee members about his concerns.
Ya, because he'd rather spend the rest of his life a fugitive, essentially exiled from his home country and family under fear of rotting in solitary confinement in a military prison without charge. He'd rather do this than simply follow the perfectly effective checks and balances this completely innocent organization is government by.
How stupid do they think we are?
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Information theory tells us that everybody in the world is within roughly six degrees of separation of everyone else. I suspect that if you collected data within two or three degrees of separation from 60 people, you'd cover nearly the entire (*) over-18 population of the U.S., so long as you choose the right 60 people.
(*) Except for the actual terrorist types, who mostly don't associate with anybody but themselves.
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
Who believes anything the NSA says anymore?
I honestly believe the only way forward is to encrypt ALL of our communications from here on. HTTP, SMS, email, voice, everything! Give them so much encrypted data they don't know where to look and what to decrypt. Even with their awesome hardware and unknown capabilities, surely it's an easy task to drown them in exabytes of encrypted data.
As a developer, I've taken the first step (shameless plug coming up). Awaaz is a Android plugin that automatically takes over any outgoing calls, and assuming the other party also has it installed, it will establish a direct P2P connection over the Internet and encrypt all communications using 256-bit AES. The symmetric key is exchanged using 2048-bit RSA, and new public and private keys are generated every single time, thus theoretically making decryption impossible. I encourage everyone to use it!
sorry, here's the 2006 link:
http://yahoo.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-10-nsa_x.htm
From TFA:
The National Security Agency has been secretly collecting the phone call records of tens of millions of Americans, using data provided by AT&T, Verizon and BellSouth, people with direct knowledge of the arrangement told USA TODAY.
Thank you Dave Raggett
Snowden should decrypt and releaes *everything* so that we can get on with the 2nd American revolution.
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
Did you notice that they implicitly admitted to storing all of the conversations and emails? They just said that their systems prevented the analysts from accessing more unless it was approved. That implies *everything* is scooped up. There have been other implicit admissions like "We have to save everything so it will be available if we ever need it" while at the same time saying "We're not looking at everything".
Nothing I read in TFA excuses the government for the PATRIOT ACT...
That's where this all started, the Patriot Act.
Snowden was a dupe. He was manipulated and now has ruined his life. His actions were like a fruit tree with alot of leaves....
Where many leaves of language are around fruit of meaning below will not be found.
The leaves/language suck the energy and life from the fruit/meaning of the information.
America ***needed*** a privacy wake-up call, but Snowden, Greenwald, and the NSA people, and yes even Obama are *all* to blame for this fucking fiasco.
I think Snowden is a **fucking idiot** but I don't wish hurt on him at all! I am concerned for him...I hope he can get his head out of his ass and eventually come home.
Thank you Dave Raggett
NSA considered the possibility that Snowden left malicious software behind and removed every computer and cable that Snowden had access to from its classified network, costing tens of millions of dollars.
The fact that they think such an attack could take place and that their best defense would be to take every piece of equipment that could be tainted and kill it with fire tells me that the NSA's IDS systems are extremely weak, its NIDS especially. I think this is the first bit of news that compromises security at the NSA, and they admitted it willingly. Sounds like the NSA is VASTLY better at attack than defense, which apparently consists of carefully screening everything that's allowed on their network (down to their TEMPEST-proof HQ) and then crossing their fingers.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
No, seriously - can anyone offer a reason why we should believe what they say?
PHEM - party like it's 1997-2003!
Not at all. Plenty of geeky backdoors that could be installed without touching the hard drives: Embed backdoors in the BIOS, or for super bonus points in the CPU microcode (should theoretically be possible on at least some CPUs). Normal looking network cables can hide embedded monitoring circuitry. Heck, there's could even be wireless network penetration/backdoor hardware installed in that normal-looking power strip. And that's just hobbiest-level stuff. If you start getting real cloak-and-dagger then you need to start wondering if all those microchips on your computer's motherboard are still the originals.
Also, it makes a great excuse for a hardware upgrade. It's not like you can't just migrate that suspect hardware into the honeypot networks.
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
You have got to be kidding. NSA specifically targeted an American company and copied their inter-data-center traffic for surveillance purposes, thereby stealing the personal information and papers and effects of millions of US citizens. You try that and let me know how prison treats you -- it's prohibited from both a civil rights and constitutional standpoint. It's a criminal act.
Snowden has shown the incompetance of the NSA. Not only did he betray their trust and make off with millions of incriminating documents. He showed their entire selection process flawed and insecure apparently. If I got this straight, he hacked and stole their exame so that he could qualify for entrance into the NSA.
Well if Snowden is just a stupid twit as the NSA likes to put forth, then anyone could of done this, and the NSA is in really sore shape.
First, I'll say I think what Snowden did was quite patriotic. Second, my god! The NSA is made to look like a bunch of incompetent boobs. The NSA let a Dell services contractor working on Microsoft sharepoint systems have access to all their most coveted secrets. And when their dear leader allegedly tried to resign over the issue, his superiors told him he couldn't have possibly have done anything to stop the genius Dell services contractor.
Well, we now know who is working for the NSA on global monitoring, don't we?
And it won't matter (though I at least appreciate that you're calling out the false assumptions). Have you read through the commentary on this thread? There's no trust anymore. Just about everyone posting on this forum thread has lost trust in the US government, and ultimately, in each other. Each comment builds upon the paranoia of the previous, and I find myself wondering--what's the end result? A world without trust? If we can't trust our government, then we can't trust each other. And if we can't trust each other, what then? What kind of world is that, where we're so paranoid about corruption and about those in power that we don't allow anyone to be in power? That's not enlightened anarchy, that's the fall of civilization right there.
Here's to hot beer, cold women, and Glaswegian kisses for all.
The BIOS attack mentioned in the article was really telling about how the spin machine works: To Quote:
This is the BIOS system which starts most computers. The attack would have been disguised as a request for a software update. If the user agreed, the virus would’ve infected the computer.
John Miller: So, this basically would have gone into the system that starts up the computer, runs the systems, tells it what to do.
Debora Plunkett: That's right.
John Miller: --and basically turned it into a cinderblock.
Debora Plunkett: A brick.
John Miller: And after that, there wouldn't be much you could do with that computer.
Debora Plunkett: That's right. Think about the impact of that across the entire globe. It could literally take down the U.S. economy.
First off, a BIOS attack? Really? Welcome to the 1980's!
Secondly, Request for software update to attack BIOS? Have you tried to update your BIOS? It aint that easy and any bios made since the late 80's has safeguards to prevent BIOS updates in the way that's described.
Thirdly, to brick enough computers to ruin the US economy using a bios update would be practically impossible. Never mind that such an attack would have to target people stupid enough to apply updates to systems in locked server rooms. Good luck with that!
Finally, this whole article just demonstrated how they just don't 'get it'. They collect data on you and your loved ones but they don't "look" at it because "that" would be illegal. And if they get caught well then it's "their PR" which is bad, not their actions.
And surely hacking the answers to cheat on a test to be a spy surely qualifies you for the job by default?
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.
You and I pay about $5 for a ethernet cable off of Newegg.com, the government pays $150 for that same 6ft cable.
So that $10 million works out to a whopping dozen computer systems at government purchase rates.
NSA is only targeting 60 Americans.....TRUE....
That is, only 60 Americans are currently targeted for clandestine assasination. The rest are all being monitored. One must be mindful of the terminology. ;-)
Public opinion will turn on a hairpin when there is a serious teror attack - not the script-kiddie type we saw just a few months ago in Boston.
Wow. Talk about desperate damage control. But it's pathetic. If this was all true, and they knew so much about Snowden ahead of time, then this makes them look even worse. It clearly smacks of smearing Snowden to try to take the heat off of them, while also trying to downplay all of the rather scary things Snowden has revealed that they do, rather than trying to actually improve the situation. Talk about childish. I remember Pravda being vilified for less than the NSA is trying to do, and if they were clearly evil then I guess it's obvious where the NSA stands too.
How many acres of hard drives would it take to store everyone's cellphone conversations?
The determined Real Programmer can write Fortran programs in any language.
yeah, I mean, if you filter out the bots and log-in users double posting as AC's...you're still right
but the end of the quotation above has the answer to the string of questions you posed after it...
see, you're right that our civilization is like a plane headed for a mountain...but the answer is *interpersonal*
human to human we can restore trust in each other...if you think about it, young people, the 'sext' generation, have already shown that they have adapted their morals *interpersonally* to accomidate a bad choice on snapchat...it's the older generation that keeps the 'ruin' of civiliation via loss of trust alive
geeks and nerds and techies of all stripes will fall right in line when/if they encounter a positive environment that they respect
but that's far from a given...but thanks for your comment! kinda proves me right ;)
Thank you Dave Raggett
I don't even bother with them anymore. And when the NSA says they're not targeting you what they really mean is we're storing all you communications and we just promise not to look unless you do something we deem suspicious. These guys have been caught lying way too many times.
I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
and half the claims are contradicted by the information on the documents snowden stole.
>Snowden never approached any of multiple Inspectors General, supervisors, or Congressional oversight committee members about his concerns.
really, what do you think would have happened to him if he did?
at minimum he would be fired, and harrassed for the rest of his life.
They literally get away with crime on a routine basis. They have satellites that can track and watch us in our homes, and remotely tap communications signals and perhaps even thought and brainwaves directly. They target and set people up, with no way to know how they obtained their data or that they were even involved. This means we have no protections from our own government, and they misuse their power. They misused it against me, warrantlessly spied on me during a major US Department of Justice investigation, and took over my life in order to cover this shit up.
I experience daily abuses from government agents, gang stalking, and have severe brain and bodily injuries from physical attacks and torture that occurred. The link to my story and the unique blend of surveillance I was targeted with is here: http://www.oregonstatehospital.net/d/russelltice-nsarnmebl.html
NSA Whistleblower Russell Tice has also repeatedly claimed they were monitoring more than metadata, but also contents of communications, including recording telephone calls of law abiding citizens with no court oversight or order. He personally targeted people like Senator Obama, Senator Feinstein, General Patraeous, .. lawyers, judges, journalists, activists, and more. He also did some of this through space capability, which the NSA hasn't even been defending against, and there is virtually no way to monitor or protect from. Bill Binney and Russell Tice repeatedly say this is going on, including in this PBS interview from August 2013: http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/08/nsa-whistleblowers-nsa-collects-word-for-word-every-domestic-communication.html
Russell Tice makes similar claims on MSNBC and Abby Martin/rt in the videos on the first link I provided.
I trust that our whistleblowers were right, and our government is lying to the public, spreading misinformation in order to make their operations seem less abusive and less suspect than they really are. They are keeping the American people in the dark in order to prevent us from making truly informed decisions about their operations. They may be sitting on the fact that everyone is being spied on, no one is immune, and hundreds of targets have been murdered, raped, tortured, and experimented on in some way. If push come to shove, our government chooses to disown us, and take matters into its' own hands in secret with no due process.
why would they replace the network cables? Why would they make such a big deal about replacing the cables?
Well, that's exactly the skill set they were looking for. No wonder he passed.
Have gnu, will travel.
not entirely true, I watch the nightly shows from the 3 majors almost every night, not all of each episode but I flip back and forth between CNN MSNBC and foxnews almost every night just to compare notes. The news shows tend to call out obama on all 3 networks, the primetime lineup, the opinion shows, it seems fox will call out obama if it rains too much, CNN will call out obama when things are so blatant they dont have a choice and MSNBC rarely calls out obama on anything, I mean chris mathews gets a boner just thinking about obama.
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
From other parts of the government. This is how bureaucracies weasel around the rules. The NSA is only investigating 60 US persons. Everything else is fulfilling data requests made by other organizations, from the FBI to the IRS. Ask these organizations and they can say, "We aren't spying on anyone."
I would expect the NSA to have copies of 31,000 properly signed FISA warrants on file justifying their services. Of course, the exception claimed would be a US person 'communicating' with a foreign entity, revealed by their link analysis. I wonder how many 419 scams are set up as a pretense to demonstrate overseas communications.
Have gnu, will travel.
"The NSA is only targeting the communications, as opposed to metadata, of less than 60 Americans." - yeah right...
"When I poured gasoline into the anthill and then dropped a match on it, I was only _targeting_ less than 60 of the ants."
but privacy is the culprit here. The NSA can go rogue because they have way too much privacy of a certain type, the "it never happened" type privacy, not the "no one knows what we are now talking about " privacy.
They can plan and plot in a dark so dark no one can ever know what was said. That has to go. Every single they do, speak, write , everywhere they go, every access to every computer system anyone there ever avails themselves of has to be memorialized into an incorruptible audit trail which can "replayed" and otherwise analyzed by investigative authorities given the proper authorization to do so.
To start with the premise that "we don't need this surveillance" is to concede the argument before it's even begun.
You can't win an argument starting with a false picture of reality. We DO need this level of surveillance. We DO need these systems and we will need them even more going forward. That is a highly unpleasant fact about reality. We need new thinking here.
So how do we stop an agency with that much assymetrical information from leveraging it into domestic political or global economic power and thus consuming on the one had our democracy and on the other our legitimacy as a world power?
The answer is to make it impossible to abuse the system AND ALSO get away with it, both.
The people in charge there now need to be moved out. People like Binney and Drake and Snowden - all true patriots- who KNOW how this technology can and is abused need to be put into positions of power. The old guard would never ever permit that , even to the point of staging a coup d'tat . Obama needs his own, legitimate, Sunday Night Massacre (Nixon 1973) there and he needs to move all at once and very suddenly with a clear vision of how that agency is going to be going forward.
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. We need the NSA and what it does. We need more of the same from the NSA in fact. But we need the contingency of ironclad transparency into the organization also.
If you take the long view, it was predictable even obvious that the individuals who "came of age" in the NSA during the digital revolution would attempt to leverage their newly invented and secret powers into an position of untouchability and engage in lawlessness. These guys have a god complex the size of a mountain, and they can have and will continue to demonize, including in their own minds, anyone who opposes their personal vision of what their careers and lives are all about, what their mission is and the best way to achieve that mission.
No point in picking their psychology apart, the point is they need to be relieved of duty and also we need to implement totalitarian-level of accounting within the organization that any lawbreaker will fear, even as we continue to spy as we have been, pushing the technological limits of what can be uncovered on our very real enemies.
sorry...
text should read: "I'd love to get a contract working for the NSA"
Thank you Dave Raggett
My sympathies that your day is so dull it's worth spending your time calling out perfectly comprehensible mistakes. Not to be rude, but given your apparent dissatisfaction perhaps there are aspects of your own life that would be more profitable to spend that time considering?
Or maybe you simply find any mention of Hobbits inherently entertaining, in which case please carry on. Hobbits.
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
So he broke into a secure environment, serruptitiously obtained confidential and/or classified information, and used his take to successfully gain a competive advantage over his peers? And somehow this makes him unsuitable for employment at the NSA?
I guess it's a good thing he wasn't a state sponsored spy... I mean, just imagine what would happen if there were multiple powerful nations with "cyber armies" that wanted at that data and the gall to infiltrate and spy on the USA / NSA. Why, all that data would just be ripe for the taking, like a huge single point of failure. The NSA would be a huge threat to national security. I mean, wow, Snowden was a contractor; Just imagine if he had been a really bad guy trained in computer exploitation and given a big budget to buy any zero-day exploit on the black market he needed? Wow, scary stuff NSA. I guess they'll be shutting down now that the biggest threat to national security has been identified as the NSA itself... right?
Guys, be more creative:
"We're only targeting fulltext of 60 Americans" = "We have 60 full-time-equivalent analysts (3 shifts) targeting Americans. Each human can only target one person at a time, computers do pre-targeting so humans only need to listen to one minute of speech to make a snap judgement"
Result 60*1440*365 = 30 million Americans are targeted per year
-- I was raised on the command line, bitch
Nothing that has been revealed so far shows any wrongdoing.
That is simply false. There are discussions about whether it was illegal, or immoral, or merely procedural. But the original leak was at the very least wrongdoing. Perhaps, in all the hubub, we have forgotten what Snowden originally leaked? Let's go back to the beginning.
The NSA submitted a single request to wiretap all Americans for (6 months? 1 year? what was it?). The reason they specified was approximately "because it might become part of a future investigation. We won't know until we listen." That request, and the approval by the FISA court, violates both the FISA and the US Constitution. There are lots of articles by lawyers - including former FISC lawyers - who agree that it was unconstitutional.
The 4th amendment of the US Constitution states:
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
The NSAs request to FISA did not describe a probable cause. Therefore, the court should not have granted the warrant. The fact that the NSA even submitted it is wrongdoing. The court granting it was wrongdoing. The fact that people either forgot this, or think it is okay, is frightening.
But in the months since that release, we have been inundated with so much dirty NSA laundry that I think the perspective has been lost. If anythnig, Snowden's subsequent releases have put the NSA and FISC's actions into perspective. Maybe, we are all thinking, that if it is really okay to tap foreign embassies and presidents, then maybe violating court procedures isn't such a big deal?
Also, remember back in the day when people in power were afraid to interviewed by 60 minutes. Do we have any real journalism like this anymore? And how do I support this journalism?
-- I was raised on the command line, bitch
It never looked good for Snowden, but this only makes things worse. He not only decided to harm the country for the benefit of hostile countries, his ethics don't point to a person of honorable or patriotic conduct. His ethics point to a person that cannot be trusted with secrets, a clearance, or employment with anything close to national security. He's no longer someone that just couldn't take the stress of working with national secrets, but someone whose purpose is anti-American.
For what is alleged of the NSA, I sure see a lot of lies and deception from the "journalists" and "lawyers" protecting and hiding Snowden from justice. The NSA at this point is more open for talking about what it does versus the obfuscation surrounding Snowden. Modbombing me won't change that.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
One possibility I have not seen discussed is whether the Intelligence Community is actually directing this whole Snowden-NSA revelation thing. Spying has much in common with effective magic: the art of directing attention elsewhere is crucial. What are we NOT paying attention to because of these revelations? Why do we believe the content of any particular Snowden release? As many have pointed out, why should believe anything the NSA says publicly? Easy answer, you shouldn't.
There's no sense in being precise when you don't even know what you're talking about. -- John von Neumann
And we all viewed that youtube when Rep. Alan Grayson attempted to question the inspector general of the entire Federal Reserve System, and the swine, even though she was then sitting on both her hands, kept repeating should still couldn't find her butt!
The "LIVEINT" "scandal" is the result of 1 (one) employee per year out of ~ 40,000 losing control and spying on a love interest. It isn't policy, it isn't approved of. The person so involved gets disciplined or fired. I think your post is disingenuous to suggest otherwise.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Yes, but if you actually key off of the terrorists, what does that do to the map? Make it much smaller I would expect, and your answer indicates. The terrorists will be the ones tending to talk to other terrorists, and that is what they are looking for.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Does anyone actually believe any of this drivel?
If they are not using the data, then why are they collecting it? It's probably the simplest question that brings the whole altruistic big brother theory to its knees (and proceeds to shoot an arrow into it).
I can not, and will not believe that an agency that is designed around exploiting secrets has my best interests in mind. Which is why they are *NOT* supposed to operate on our soil. They can not have the best interests of those they collect information on, since the whole purpose of the information is for their interests.
Huzzah!
http://yro.slashdot.org/story/13/12/16/1946235/judge-nsa-phone-program-likely-unconstitutional
This may be a simplistic view but as part of my concervative christian upbringing, I was taught to tell the truth. I think it should always be ok to tell the truth (certainly shouldn't have to flee the country for doing so). I realize that is at odds with the classified system, but, I also thing the classified system has over stepped it's bounds.
I understand that in engineering the exact specs needs to be classified ( how far away we can detect something, how accurate our guns are, exact mechnism for breaking a code...), but unless it immediatly endagers lives, you should be able to talk about what the US does.
If it was that much of a problem, the knowledge of what the NSA was doing, then we shouldn't have been doing it. Of course the NSA wanted that information, I want to bang the chick in the cubical next to me. But, I couldn't look my wife in the eye next day, and tell her what I had been doing, so- I leave my wedding ring on, and do an honest job.
The danger is that there's no way to know whether they picked those 60 or the other 60, and there's very little oversight to ensure that they always limit their surveillance to the 60 terrorists and not the 60 well-connected random citizens.
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
You forgot these possibilities:
WE ALL forgot to do what any rational Slashdot audience would do, abandon thread for a moment to set up a Boolean decision tree and NSA morality geek code so that further discussion becomes logically precise, generally incomprehensible to outsiders and confusing in whole new ways.. so from this little sub-thread so far we have
Prefix: NSASnowJob:
thouHastSinned+-: Did the NSA do something wrong?
IseeSaidTheBlindMan+-: Did anyone notice?
deweyDefeatsTruman+-: Did anyone report it?
whoIsJohnGalt+-: Did anything change?
area51+-: Did someone make shit up?
texasSuicide+-: Did someone die mysteriously?
itWasTheDogThatFarted+-: Does everyone do it (no big fucking deal)?
[[NSA:SnowJob::]] We intend to begin on the first of February unrestricted submarine warfare [thouHastSinned+++] We shall endeavor in spite of this to keep the United States of America neutral. [IseeSaidTheBlindMan++++] In the event of this not succeeding, we make Mexico a proposal of alliance on the following basis: [deweyDefeatsTruman++] make war together [whoIsJohnGalt++++] make peace together [Snoden=texasSuicide----] You will inform the President of the above most secretly as soon as the outbreak of war with the United States of America is certain [no excuse itWasTheDogThatFarted--] and add the suggestion that he should, on his own initiative, invite Japan to immediate adherence and at the same time mediate between Japan and ourselves. [credibility zero area51----] Signed, ZIMMERMANN.
<blink>down the rabbit hole</blink>
Finally someone who gets it, and +1 for funnies.
Drugs running low? It seems your psychosis has kicked in again...
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
I guess this is the literal truth. That they record or are preparing to record the communications of some 300 million other Americans is a pure accident, nothing "targeted" about it at all! After all, sweeping general surveillance is never targeted and that is the whole point.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Like the playwrights did with Madame Butterfly converted it to Miss Saigon, I bet fifty years from now someone will convert Les Miserables to a Snowden milieu.
What part does the Bishop play in showing initial kindess?
Although he stole more than a loaf of bread.
Instead of sneaking over the walls of Paris, the protagonist makes into the Moscow airport.
But who plays the young girl?
Does NSA or the Justice Dept. play Javert?
Tracy Johnson
Old fashioned text games hosted below:
http://empire.openmpe.com/
BT
Since Mr Obama has demonstrated on multiple occasions what comes out of his mouth in public is not necessarily factual, why should any of us think any other part of this administration is doing anything else? If you know your Boss is lying to others inside and outside of your organization, when asked about it what would you do? Your ethics may say you need to tell the truth, but your Bank account might persuade you to do differently. Our current administration keeps coming up with these rogue-individuals or groups. There are no rogues, they are following the lead of those above them in the food-chain. As the saying goes "The truth will set you free"! When used in context with our current leaders it becomes "The truth will get you prison time if it comes out". Our Congress went after a major-league Baseball Pitcher for lying to Congress, because that is a Federal Crime. But, when it is done by the President or anyone in his administration they have no stomach to do anything about it. I have not seen a representative of this administration do anything but lie and obfuscate to Congress, and nothing is being done about it.
How does it help "foreign nations" to know how much the U.S. is or is not spying on its own citizens? How can foreign nations "exploit" a lack of domestic spying? How can foreign nations even "exploit" knowledge about international spying by the U.S. government?
What a backwards comment. Ed Snowden didn't release this information to harm the U.S., he did it to inform U.S. citizens about what their tax dollars were buying without their knowledge. This is stuff citizens should have a right to know.
If World War III were going on, you might have a point about keeping spying ops secret. But in peacetime (and this is peacetime, notwithstanding a couple of US-lead skirmishes), there should be less spying and much more transparency.
The NSA's reach apparently reaches to Slashdot. The top level paragraph is remarkably less than neutral and appears spin-doctored. To all of you NSA / NWO pukes reading this - realize that real patriotic Americans hate you and will oppose you down to the dying breath. That is all.
What is the value of the NSA?
They openly lie (badly) to Congress. Who would believe them in a closed briefing?
They can be penetrated by a random contractor. How many foreign agents are in there all the time, copying anything worth having and sending it home?
Are they supposed to be a disinformation channel?
That spin might just work, but how about reducing their budget to match?
Sending all NSA staff to Gitmo would probably remove most foreign agents from US soil. And show an equal respect for the constitution.
--
Metadata equals surveillance; always remember that. -- Bruce Schneier
great, we now have a new hidden cost to being hacked. not only do we have to format our hard drives and reinstall, but it seems we also have to throw away all our cables and buy all new ones.
how come we're just now learning this? I bet all my cables have been infected, many times over. I feel so unclean even using them right now.
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
If he could have been sure they could be trusted..He *might* have gone to those "inspectors generals or ocersight commitees" But the very info he had showed that nobody in the administration could be.. so that statement didn't wash.. and,, 60 people? Gimme a break!