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US Spying Costs Boeing Military Jet Deal With Brazil
An anonymous reader writes with this excerpt from a Reuters report shedding light on one consequence of increasing knowledge of the extent of U.S. government spying: "Brazil awarded a $4.5 billion contract to Saab AB on Wednesday to replace its aging fleet of fighter jets, a surprise coup for the Swedish company after news of U.S. spying on Brazilians helped derail Boeing's chances for the deal. ... The timing of the announcement, after more than a decade of off-and-on negotiations, appeared to catch the companies involved by surprise. Even Juniti Saito, Brazil's top air force commander, said on Wednesday that he only heard of the decision a day earlier in a meeting with President Dilma Rousseff. Until earlier this year, Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet had been considered the front runner. But revelations of spying by the U.S. National Security Agency in Brazil, including personal communication by Rousseff, led Brazil to believe it could not trust a U.S. company."
Seems fair. The US government does the same to Chinese companies for the same reason.
You made the correct choice, Brazil! For more than one reason.
It's about time something like that happened. Now if only all European countries showed the same level of responsibility, maybe the USA would learn to treat their "friends" better.
Maybe the Saab is a better deal anyway, their latest plane is a newer design, and more agile.
Plus, if I were them, I'd be worried that the USA would insert a backdoor in the avionics that allows the plane to be remote controlled by the USA.
If they are procuring them with the hope of surviving any sort of even brief conflict with the US, they will be sadly disappointed no matter who they buy their jets from. A more troubling backdoor would be a listening post on each jet that scoops up data on to a drive in a secret compartment, which can then be downloaded by a CIA/NSA agent pretending to be a Boeing service tech.
I wouldn't expect them to get into a direct conflict with the USA, but if they were in a conflict that the USA didn't want them to be in, or if they were interfering in a covert USA operation, the USA could ground their jets or enforce a "no fly" zone purely in software.
Just for info : they have decided for the better plane.
The JAS SuperGrippen (Grippen NG) has a much larger ferry and combat range (twice as much as the F/A18), is a lot faster (Mach 2.2, even faster than the F35), more agile AND cheaper both in initial costs and per flight hour. It's comparable to the Eurofighter. Except that the JAS 39 NG has the much better radar.
It has a bit lower weapon payload, though (5.3 metric ton (JAS39) vs 6 metric ton (F/A18)). But for the cost of one american plane, you can buy two JAS39 and thus have air superiority.
NSA has been good to US companies in the past, sometimes it fails. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Examples_of_industrial_espionage
The USA will eventually find itself alone, and without allies. And it's not just the spying, it's the drone attacks on soil with countries we are not at war with. Recently we blew up a wedding party in Yemen, killing over 13 which I'm sure included women and children. But oh no, we're not evil. We're the good guys. Uh huh.
Little by little, we are making enemies of the world, and until we change our ways, less and les of the world is going to want to do business with us because we have shown we're not trustworthy.
And to the poster who blames a 4.5 billion dollar loss on the economy to Ed Snowden, screw you. All Snowden did was CONFIRM what everyone knew already, but just couldn't prove. He will be shown to be a hero, this decade's Cindy Sheehan.
We are in the wrong, but people who wrap themselves in the flag are unwilling to admit it. And until we learn to act a little more humble, we're going to see more of this. We're making the typical over-exaggerated gestures of a failed empire. And as things get worse here, we're trying to take the rest of the world down with us.
If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
If that is their worry, then buying any NATO countries produce would not help them. AFAIK The SAAB Gripens use American engines, avionics and components. Apart from the airframe and the final country of assembly (and some local parts), they are not really making much a difference as far trust of the hardware goes.
If that was the real worry, then you'd have to buy someone elses (probably Russian), but they went out of the race a while ago.
This is not just a response to the NSA leaks. Everyone spies, we all know that.
The problem is American exceptionalism. No, not because we think that (every nation does), but because we can't shut up about it. The image we project is of spoiled kids, arrogant and rotten to the core. We shove our defensiveness in everyone's faces, and that makes America a very bad salesperson. We are the tight-ass at Macy's who thinks his feces doesn't stink, and won't even pay you any attention because you have the wrong shoes. No on wants to deal with that.
This isn't about who has the best warplanes. This is diplomacy. This is business. This is about saving face and national egos. It's about time we learned a little finesse in this area. It's something the Chinese do exceptionally well.
"The NSA problem ruined it for the Americans," a Brazilian government source said on condition of anonymity.
A U.S. source close to the negotiations said that whatever intelligence the spying had delivered for the American government was unlikely to outweigh the commercial cost of the revelations.
"Was that worth 4 billion dollars?" the source asked.
We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
Just for info : they have decided for the better plane.
You forget the Rafale which is by far superior to the Gripen.
See Switzerland: they also have chosen the Gripen for political and price reason, even if it doesn't meet the military requirements!
End of page 2:
The Gripen has been rated unsatisfactory in the accomplishment for Air-to-Air and Strike missions.
The Gripen obtained the 3rd rank in the evaluation of the effectiveness.
Based on flight test results, the Rafale is the candidate which fulfil all Swiss Air Force requirements and ended with the best score recommended as new fighter for the Swiss Air Force.
I live in Brazil and you couln't be more wrong. We have a consolidated democracy and will elect a new president in 2014 (and governors), it's that simple. Yes, we do have a massive income distribution program, but it's not used politically as much as it have could been.
I guarantee you that our "friends" spy on us, especially for economic information. The problem I have with the NSA is that they spy on American citizens. It is THEIR JOB to spy on foreign citizens and governments.
Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
The fact that the military didn't even know about this snap-decision (after TEN YEARS of "on again, off again" negotiations) shows that Dilma Rousseff is simply stomping her little feet angrily at the US. The US/Brazil relationship has always been touchy - Brazil is hypersensitive, and the US *was* overbearing and arrogant.
Ms Rousseff is either acting or stupid. Let's be absolutely candid: Brazil is NOT a first-world country. I would imagine that *any* first-world security agency that has wanted to spy on Brazil HAS been spying on Brazil. Frankly, the only people not spying on Brazil would be anyone who doesn't give a shit about Brazil, and for Ms Rousseff (or anyone with a brain) to not recognize that is simply ignorant or in denial.
She has public constituencies to salve, and is merely making political capital out of the always-useful-bogeyman, the US. That they decided on SAAB in such a snap decision suggests to me, in fact, that they'd qualified either vendor to their own standards, and were just waiting for the bribes/'compensations' to rise to the level that finally justified selecting one vendor or the other.
-Styopa
they have source to the avionics, the radar etc.
it is normal procedure to buy it so that you as the buyer have the source, at least finland does even for the hornets(the smaller non-super) and there has been domestic modifications to the fw. certainly the swedes do for the components they buy from usa and code sharing has been a part of their negotiation tactics.
and last time I checked, Sweden wasn't a NATO country and has no intention of being one either. norway is and that's how norway was pressured into buying f35's and not gripens(the leaked cables reveal all about it)... the 3rd country in the race was france and they are a nato country.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
There have been recent rumours about Brazil again considering the russian PAK-FA project.
F-18 E/F (aka super hornet) mainly differs from C/D varians (normal hornet) in size. It's the same air frame with increased size, enabling it to carry more load.
It's reason for existence is in the cancelled naval F-22 variant, which meant that US Navy needed replacement for F-14s quickly. F-18 C/D didn't have the size to carry enough fuel for the maritime patrol tasks, so size was increased in E/F variant, which enabled it to carry more fuel and weapons.
Calling it a "whole new beast" is a bold faced lie. It's the same airframe that was enlarged with minor evolutionary upgrades at best.
SAAB has made many concessions over the transfer of technology. I wonder how it will work out. Plus they propose to "make" them in Brazil. I wonder how much it will cost them since embraer has to outsource the assembly of many of their planes in Europe to be cost efficient.
The Gripen has many parts which are originated from the USA. The volvo engine used by current Gripens is a modified general electrics one. No small part of their electronics is American too. Besides, the Gripen NG now exists only on paper. It has short range and carry little ordinance. Best contender wasn't the F18 but the Dassault Rafale. Except in the US press of course. The French were ready to make a technology tranfer the americans would have never accepted, with good reasons. The Brazilians and the French already cooperate closely on Brazil's future nuclear submarines and that was supposed to seal a military alliance between the two countries. Sarkozy had even agreed to buy some Brazilian tranports France doesn't need to sweeten the deal.
And everyone who is even slightly interested in defense matters know the everyone which has the means spy on everyone. The Brazilian military knew this like the others Snowden or no Snowden.
The ones who rage and are really surprised now are the French, no the US.
The main source of despots in Latin America has been US, which used despots to keep countries in severe poverty while it's multinationals shipped profits to US.
"Bolivarian socialism" has evolved to prevent this exploitation, and succeeded in increasing quality of life in the region significantly. Obviously at the cost of profits for multinationals.
Ah yes, that report, written by Dassault themselves, even in the face of Gripen curbstomping Rafale in red flag excercises, and Gripen proving that it was better at strike missions in Libya.
Basically, Dassault has such a foothold in the Swiss Air Force that they can write the requirements and testing specs to favour Dassault. It's like trying to sell Gripen or Typhoon to the US or Russian Air Forces.....
In the Case of the Swiss, they had indeed noted the Rafale and the Eurofighter favourably, stating the Gripen was not only weaker but also below their minimal requirements. It has flunked the exams.
Still, they chose the Gripen. Why ? Simple, Eurofigher is partially German, Rafale is French and both Germany and France have heavily pressured the Swiss to reform their beloved banking system so EU citizen can't elude their taxes with a Swiss account.
The Gripen choice was the retaliation.
US Spying Costs Boeing a Brazilian Dollars
Actually, there are three groups of people: those who know how to count,and those who don't. I know what group I belong to.
And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
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Think about this - will the US build in a kill switch into those planes? They can control drones on the other side of the world, why not a fighter plane? Can we trust that those planes don't communicate with a US base and let them know where it is, what's being said and done inside?
Embraer and SAAB has a history of collaboration and this is one of the key points of the deal. Embraer will be assembling these aircraft and they will be involved in future evolution of the aircraft. This spirit of collaboration between Sweden and Brasil is something that the US couldn't offer.
- Henrik
- when the Shadows descend -
On the contrary, my point is that everyone the bully thinks is in the former group is actually in the latter. Once the bully weakens, his former "friends" will inevitably betray him.
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
[...], and Gripen proving that it was better at strike missions in Libya.
Err... no.
In Libya the Gripen has only been used for recognition, not for strike.
Why ? Political choice, so they do not risk to kill civilians, and here Carl Bildt said the Gripen was not suitable for strike (which is BS, but an excuse for not to strike).
About Dassault writing the report, I'm interested in anything backing this idea (fact,quotes,...). To me it doesn't look like so.
This might change some of Boeing's thinking with regard to relocating their commercial operations. Back when I worked there (before McDonald Douglas took over), Boeing Commercial Aircraft was largely a stand alone enterprise. In fact, there was some talk about spinning off the military and aerospace divisions. That changed after the merger and some of the recent reorganizations have combined commercial and military aircraft engineering groups.
But if the rest of the world perceives Boeing as being a tool of the USA's political/military complex, they might want to reconsider tainting their successful commercial jet business with that reputation. The F/A-18 deal is lost. But the company will really be up a creek if they start losing commercial sales as well.
Have gnu, will travel.
Grippen WAS the frontrunner in the beggining. The technicians from the brazilian airforce always said the grippen was better (for some reasons I don't really know).
In the last government, the french Rafale was the frontrunner. The reasons were not technical, but political: to get close to france and, maybe, get a chair at the UN backed by France.
Then the president of Brazil changed (Lula -> Dilma) and the odds changed too. The f-18 was, then, the frontrunner with the new president. But after the NSA shit, things changed back again.
The FAB (Brazilian air force) always wanted the Gripen. It was not a snap decision; it was the government finally realising it is better to be a junior partner than a minor customer.
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Amongst our many groups are such diverse elements as those who know how to count, those who don't, those with a ruthless dedidcation to the pope and ... I'll come in again.
Saying "I don't trust US-Based stuff" could be technical, but its more likely a means to punish the US... "making sure the chickens come home to roost"
Punishing the US which is about the ONLY THING that has any hope of real change - if big US corporations start losing deals because of the shenanigans form the NSA, they'll start throwing their weight around and the politicians will listen.
The Digital Sorceress
The official mission was recon, but their RoE didn't preclude strikes, if there was a pressing need.
2 times, 39's simultaneously engaged and destroyed multiple ground targets, and at least 3 other times they provided the target data to Rafale's(Too bad 39's have to run with reduced datalink capacity to interface with NATO planes, including the Rafale)
As for Dassault involvement, they are issuing bearer bonds to Swiss politicians, Dassault "consultants" are working as personal advisors to at least 3 defense ministry officials, and are also suspects in the brewing indian bribery scandal regarding the Rafale procurement. Keep in mind, SAAB and the Swedish government have sidestepped BAE for the Swiss procurement, because BAE is too corrupt, and Dassault has an operational record just as dirty as that of BAE, Boeing and Lockheed-Martin, with the belgian scandal being just one of them.
When general Gygax made a revised statement of operational capacity after 2010, when Gripen NG showed off the planned abilities, there was an immediate lobbying blitz and further bearer bonds thrown in the direction of parliament and defense ministry.
In fact, Dassault are still pushing the 2006-2008 evaluations to the swiss parliament, completely ignoring the post-2010 evaluations. They even willfully broke the rules of the tender by attempting to renegotiate after the bidding timeframe was closed.
The unchecked spying without oversight is now leading to huge damage to the US economy. It's no wonder that IT companies like Microsoft, Google, and Apple etc.. want reform in the NSA because they stand to lose a huge amount of worldwide business after the Snowden revelation fallout. Countries don't trust the US or US based companies now and they will look elsewhere for their IT and hardware needs as evidenced by the loss of the 4.5 billion contract mentioned in this article. I'm from Canada and IT companies I work with are now trying to minimize their exposure to US software and hardware and I'm sure it's the same in other countries.
All of these are minor evolutionary upgrades. Most of ones you listed can be summed up under "bigger aircraft" (more payload hardpoints, more fuel, bigger wing surface...) Avionics upgrades have been retroactively applied to C/D models.
Scale. Pervasiveness.
Funny how you survillance state apologists are always talking "gosh, everyone does this" but never talk about how New Zealand has tapped Obama's personal cell phone, or how Romania is monitoring every phone call and email sent by every American citizen. You don't because you can't.
Arguing that because Bumfuckistan has an intelligence agency, budget $3 million USD, so all things are equal is as asinine as saying that Canada has an army and a navy so it's equal with the United States. Nevermind the fact that the U.S. spends more than the rest of the world combined.