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Ancient Pompeii Diet Consisted of Giraffe and Other "Exotic'" Delicacies

Philip Ross writes "New research into Pompeiians' daily lives is broadening our understanding of this ancient Roman culture, particularly their eating habits, before Mt. Vesuvius brought it all crumbling down nearly 2,000 years ago. Over the past decade, archaeologists excavating a row of building plots discovered remnants of food that would have been widely available and inexpensive in ancient Italy, like grains, fruits, olives, lentils, local fish, nuts and chicken eggs. They also uncovered evidence that Pompeiians enjoyed a variety of exotic foods, some of which would have been imported from outside Italy, including sea urchins, flamingos and even the butchered leg joint of a giraffe."

172 comments

  1. MMMM !! GIRAFE !! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And the donkey is good I hear for the rest !!

    1. Re:MMMM !! GIRAFE !! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Nah, donkey tastes like ass.

    2. Re:MMMM !! GIRAFE !! by Cryacin · · Score: 1

      They probably preferred antelope with cantaloupe.

      --
      Science advances one funeral at a time- Max Planck
    3. Re:MMMM !! GIRAFE !! by flyneye · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This was Pompeii, if they couldn't eat it , they fucked it.
      Ever seen the "hidden" archaeological findings?
      These people didn't have T.V., radio, or internet, but they put on some damn elaborate sex shows.
      It was considered normal to put on a show for your house guests.

      --
      *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
    4. Re:MMMM !! GIRAFE !! by Kohath · · Score: 1, Offtopic
    5. Re:MMMM !! GIRAFE !! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what you're saying is that the destruction of Pompeii was Gods work! Sinners be damned in fire and brimstone!!!

    6. Re:MMMM !! GIRAFE !! by Dahamma · · Score: 1

      You must have had that Chinese Walmart donkey with extra fox meat...

    7. Re:MMMM !! GIRAFE !! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which god? The Christian god was still under construction at that point. This was before Mithra's day, Lupercalia day and Eostre day were converted to Christmas, Valentines day and Easter.

    8. Re:MMMM !! GIRAFE !! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This you know. Pompeiiian are you?

    9. Re:MMMM !! GIRAFE !! by Virtucon · · Score: 1

      It must taste like chicken.

      --
      Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
    10. Re:MMMM !! GIRAFE !! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Giraffes are assholes so they deserve to be eaten occasionally.

    11. Re:MMMM !! GIRAFE !! by _merlin · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It's the Old Testament where the God of the Israelites rains fire and brimstone on wicked cities. That had already been written.

    12. Re:MMMM !! GIRAFE !! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's still doing it, though these days it's phosphorous and shrapnel instead of fire and brimstone.

    13. Re:MMMM !! GIRAFE !! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, you mean the "Old Testament", the fantasy book which borough stories from more ancient culture and added up some more stories to make whole story non-sense

    14. Re:MMMM !! GIRAFE !! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you have seen it, it is not "hidden" duh

    15. Re:MMMM !! GIRAFE !! by alex67500 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, he got tired of Napalm...

    16. Re:MMMM !! GIRAFE !! by flyneye · · Score: 1

      I hid it when I was done, thanks

      --
      *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
    17. Re:MMMM !! GIRAFE !! by flyneye · · Score: 1

      Im saying city planners goofed on the location.

      --
      *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
    18. Re:MMMM !! GIRAFE !! by flyneye · · Score: 2

      Yes , it was before Constantine.
      Elokiim was, is and will always be, didnt you read the manual?

      --
      *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
    19. Re:MMMM !! GIRAFE !! by flyneye · · Score: 1

      Well, a couple cities anyway. I still blame bad city planning. Herculanium, as well.

      --
      *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
    20. Re:MMMM !! GIRAFE !! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Christmas was created as an alternative to Saturnalia.

    21. Re:MMMM !! GIRAFE !! by Optali · · Score: 1

      These scientists didn't read Asterix from what it seems!

      --
      -- 29A the number of the Beast
    22. Re:MMMM !! GIRAFE !! by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      Well, a couple cities anyway. I still blame bad city planning. Herculanium, as well.

      While not defending "not listening to the Earth" in general, at the time there had been no significant volcanic activity in and around Vesuvius for some tens of generations, if not longer. There was no mental image of associating fumaroles and intermittent earthquakes with volcanic activity. Maybe in Indonesia or East Africa, where such things happened more frequently, there are more grounds for criticism, but here I can't really blame the Latins (Samnites, whoever were the local tribe at the time) for ignorance at the time.

      At least, I can't blame them any more than the current authorities for continuing to build Naples (sandwiched between Vesuvius and the Campi Fhlegere eruption centre), or Rome (expanding into the Monte Albano eruption centre). Or San Francisco, Los Angeles, Seattle and Tokyo for that matter.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  2. Typical Roman cuisine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It didn't matter if it tasted good, the point was you were showing off your ability to buy meat from an animal that lived thousands of miles away.

    1. Re:Typical Roman cuisine by interkin3tic · · Score: 3, Informative

      I think you're onto something. TFA says this was in the section of the city that was "non-elite." I guess it's human nature to want to buy silly things to make yourself look like you're higher in society than you actually feel.

      Unrelated question, anyone have a reccomendation for the best fake-diamond studded case for my iphone?

    2. Re:Typical Roman cuisine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

      anyone have a reccomendation for the best fake-diamond studded case for my iphone?

      If you want an iPhone to look good, hollow out a HTC One and jam the iPhone inside.

    3. Re:Typical Roman cuisine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

      Switching to Windows Phone is a better idea.

    4. Re:Typical Roman cuisine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Maybe it was marketed as a height enhancement aid for males.

      Haha, I'm glad that nobody nowadays would fall for that kind of a scam!

    5. Re:Typical Roman cuisine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

      That would at least protect it from getting stolen. I hear thieves in some areas actually return Android phones if they accidentally steal them.

    6. Re:Typical Roman cuisine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pfft, a case for your iphone? It's only extravagant if it's for an outmoded or completely superfluous piece of kit. I'm saving up for this puppy.

    7. Re:Typical Roman cuisine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only a better idea for Microsoft's profits.. They're not very good phones for normal people to use.

    8. Re:Typical Roman cuisine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Switching to Windows Phone is a better idea.

      "Better idea" than what? Self-immolation? Seppuku? Voting Republican?

    9. Re:Typical Roman cuisine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OP: I hear thieves in some areas actually return Android phones if they accidentally steal them.

      IDC: Android hit 81.0% smartphone share in Q3 2013, iOS fell to 12.9%
      Venturebeat: Android’s share of global device sales growing 14-times faster than iOS
      IBT: Android Powers 81 Percent Of All Smartphones Shipped Worldwide In Q3 As iOS Market Share Drops

      I'm guessing by "some areas" you mean mental institutions?

    10. Re:Typical Roman cuisine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It didn't matter if it tasted good, the point was you were showing off your ability to buy meat from an animal that lived thousands of miles away.

      I'd just serve chicken and say it was giraffe. Same for Komodo dragon. White meat for lizards. Dark meat for other terrestrials and bay seal. Same for whale.

      The key to pulling this off is to over cook it. Most folks think endangered species has tough meat so make sure to keep that chicken on a bit too long.

      You may want to carve it or press it with a cookie cutter to make it look like it came from the animal - McDonald's does this all the time.

    11. Re:Typical Roman cuisine by icebike · · Score: 1

      It didn't matter if it tasted good, the point was you were showing off your ability to buy meat from an animal that lived thousands of miles away.

      No refrigeration.

      So if there was a butchered leg joint, chances are that is all there really was. Just a souvenir joint, perhaps for bone carving.
      Seems unlikely you would butcher and salt a Giraffe, AND take the bones with you. Too heavy. No food value.

      Its not like you can capture one, and walk it to Pompeii. You've got a thousand miles to transport the meat, and the only way
      that happens is dry it and salt it. So it seems as likely it was a hunters Roman soldier's souvenir or a trade good as a food
      article. Probably his wife made him throw it out when it began to stink.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    12. Re:Typical Roman cuisine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    13. Re:Typical Roman cuisine by Nidi62 · · Score: 4, Informative

      It didn't matter if it tasted good, the point was you were showing off your ability to buy meat from an animal that lived thousands of miles away.

      No refrigeration.

      So if there was a butchered leg joint, chances are that is all there really was. Just a souvenir joint, perhaps for bone carving. Seems unlikely you would butcher and salt a Giraffe, AND take the bones with you. Too heavy. No food value.

      Well, you could just, you know, bring captured live animals back with you to sell as a delicacy or for use as a pet/in the arena. Simply google "giraffes in the coliseum" and the very first hit has a list of exotic animals shown in the Coliseum, as well as documents in a particular festival where 19 giraffes were killed. So if a giraffe bone made it to Pompeii, it was very likely alive when it got there.

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    14. Re:Typical Roman cuisine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Here, I'll summarise:

      [RDF Off] USA /= World [RDF On]

    15. Re:Typical Roman cuisine by immaterial · · Score: 5, Informative

      It is important to note that in ancient Roman times, many species that are now confined to sub-Saharan Africa were living in North Africa (and some all the way into Greece) because of the wetter climate. This includes elephants, lions, and giraffes. These "exotic" animals weren't as far away as it seems.

    16. Re:Typical Roman cuisine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

      After the mistrust I go through during a day of trying to use Windows, always wondering who's using all the memory, what's tying up the CPU, wondering what viruses and hostile code I may get by just visiting a website, I kind of think of Microsoft like a public toilet.

      The boss loves the idea he can get cheap software, and seems to think he can solve any problem about stolen data with a call to his lawyer. For me personally, its like having to take a bad road to work during a bad fog, where all sorts of DRM and trolling take place - a place where I cannot trust anyone's true identity, but failing to honor some demand by some business can result in all sorts of punitive action. I feel I am being coerced into signing legal agreements without being allowed to read them. These agreements are not enforced by men with guns, but the cold machinations of a central processing unit executing instructions given to it by an entity I am not allowed to verify.

      In my mind, Microsoft has sold themselves into prostitution, getting into bed with whatever special interest that pays their fee. They carry all the diseases to prove it, and the doctors get even richer selling me all sorts of pills that may or may not relieve the distress of visiting the wrong whore.

      I realize Microsoft is the Language of Business. In order to make myself valuable to the business-man, I have to tolerate this lack of robustness and accountability. The business-man does not see how I need to reboot my machine daily to recover my memory and free up CPU cycles from only God knows what scripts got launched yet I have no control over. I know nothing is confidential in my machine. I have a cheap WalMart laptop I use exclusively for web browsing and research, as know its going to get dirty. I use a toilet brush to clean the toilet too. I object to having the toilet brush on my dining table; and also object to having Microsoft products around where anything confidential is being discussed. I feel as uncomfortable doing banking with this kind of technology as conducting my financial business in a dark alley. Even if I have to hire private security, which also have histories of co-operating with the bad guys.

      In my personal life, about the last thing I want to buy with my OWN money is anything to do with Microsoft, whether it be Microsoft phone, or some sort of Microsoft stuff in my car. I like dependable tools. A professional mountaineer is likely to scoff about carabiners purchased at the dollar store. I am scoffing for the very same reason. Damn thing is apt to fail. However, looking at it from a business point of view, if I could get the mountaineer to work for me, had him sign away all liability I had in the matter, I could save money by having him use the dollar store carabiners.

      As far as I am concerned, Microsoft is business-grade software, sold to executives. Its not the kind of tool you would try to sell to a mechanic.

      I will post this rant AC. This has been my experience in this manner. I am sorely disappointed that this charade of trying to build a trustworthy computing platform as gone on for so long and we are still without a truly viable and trustworthy operating system.

    17. Re:Typical Roman cuisine by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 1

      I'm saving up for this puppy.

      Liberace? Is that you?

    18. Re:Typical Roman cuisine by Rob+the+Bold · · Score: 0

      Switching to Windows Phone is a better idea.

      . . . Which you've stuffed into the iPhone that you've stuffed into the hollowed-out HTC One.

      Romans put Turducken to shame.

      --
      I am not a crackpot.
    19. Re:Typical Roman cuisine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Read a history book. The city of Rome, which is quite close to Pompeii, had a little building called the Coliseum (although it was not the only arena in the Empire, I don't think exotic animals would be as common in smaller cities). The Roman Empire was huge, rich and powerful. Because of the extent they entered in contact with other cultures and animals that were not common in Rome. Some of these animals were brought back to be shown in the Coliseum, sometimes in huge (and expensive) battles to the death. From the Wikipedia:

      The Colosseum was used to host gladiatorial shows as well as a variety of other events. The shows, called munera, were always given by private individuals rather than the state. They had a strong religious element but were also demonstrations of power and family prestige, and were immensely popular with the population. Another popular type of show was the animal hunt, or venatio. This utilized a great variety of wild beasts, mainly imported from Africa and the Middle East, and included creatures such as rhinoceros, hippopotamuses, elephants, giraffes, aurochs, wisents, Barbary lions, panthers, leopards, bears, Caspian tigers, crocodiles and ostriches. Battles and hunts were often staged amid elaborate sets with movable trees and buildings. Such events were occasionally on a huge scale; Trajan is said to have celebrated his victories in Dacia in 107 with contests involving 11,000 animals and 10,000 gladiators over the course of 123 days.

      Probably the giraffes were more for show, as I don't think they are much fun in battle.

    20. Re:Typical Roman cuisine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I kind of think of Microsoft like a public toilet.

      You mostly use them to surreptitiously cruise for dudes? I hear there's apps for every platform for that.

    21. Re:Typical Roman cuisine by MightyYar · · Score: 2

      Yeah, I have one of those 80% Android phones. I bought it because it was cheap. Apple has nothing to worry about.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    22. Re:Typical Roman cuisine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Read a history book.

      Take your own advice. Random web pages are not history books. Pliny the Elder (perhaps you've heard of him, he wrote basically the first encyclopedia and was killed during the destruction of Pompeii) wrote about giraffes in his Naturalis Historia. They were absolutely not common. The first one was brought by Caesar in 46 BC and only a handful were ever seen after. The first to be killed was by Commodus in the late 2nd century AD, after Pliny's death. Philip the Arab was said to have killed ten giraffes to celebrate the millennium of Rome's founding (written about in Historia Augusta, whose veracity is questionable). That's pretty much the extent of mentions of giraffes in Roman Italy.

    23. Re:Typical Roman cuisine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Throw the Christians to the giraffes

    24. Re:Typical Roman cuisine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you were that rich, you'd be going to visit those places and eating it fresh instead of getting it when it's nearly rotten

    25. Re:Typical Roman cuisine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wikipedia is not a random web page (and you as an AC *are* a random web commenter giving uncited facts about giraffes, though I won't contest them).

      Nobody said giraffes were common in Italy. They said there were occasionally live giraffes brought in. And we have evidence of giraffe remains in the drain of a restaurant, alongside sea urchins and shellfish also not native to Italy.

      A giraffe import wouldn't be cheap. Actually I'd be interested in a sort of economic analysis of what it *would* cost relative to other things available to Roman wealth (as opposed to knee-jerk plausibility assessments) -- certainly they cannot have been butchering all that many imported giraffes, but could the local economy at the time of Pompeii's fall support, say, a giraffe a week? A giraffe a decade? Once ever? Only a random souvenir, as an ancestor post asserted? I don't know.

    26. Re:Typical Roman cuisine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Giraffes would be brought by boat from around Kenya, up to a Red Sea port, taken east across the desert to Apollonopolis, and then north on the Nile, and then across the Mediterranean.

      I know they transported live elephants, it shouldn't be much more trouble.

    27. Re: Typical Roman cuisine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Basically the whole Pompeii was a summerhouse center for super-wealthy Romans. Sure, some regular folks lived there too and they probably got bad parts of any excess meat cheaply in a sort of "trickle-down" style.

    28. Re:Typical Roman cuisine by crimson+tsunami · · Score: 0

      Arent Iphones really fat though?

    29. Re:Typical Roman cuisine by bytesex · · Score: 1

      Lions roamed the mountains northern Greece/Thrace until some time in 1400's, if I recall correctly. In fact, they had a presence in the entire 'arc' around the eastern mediteranean. Hercules wore a lion's skin.

      --
      Religion is what happens when nature strikes and groupthink goes wrong.
    30. Re:Typical Roman cuisine by lxs · · Score: 5, Funny

      That's pretty much the extent of mentions of giraffes in Roman Italy.

      It is said that "Hamburgers" were a staple of 20th century life. However surviving records of that time offer scant evidence. Tarantino the Younger mentions "one tasty [ham]burger" in only one surviving scene in his Magnum Opus a Tale of Pulp In fact a different document the Quest for the White Castle shows to what lengths the heroes Harold and Kumar have to go to get their hands on one of these so called "hamburgers"

      Let's face it, hamburgers were a rare delicacy reserved for the rich and powerful of the time as this fresco clearly shows.

    31. Re:Typical Roman cuisine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Romans didn't have vacations. Travel was done for trade or war. Maybe family visits for those from the provinces.

    32. Re:Typical Roman cuisine by DrXym · · Score: 1

      Who says the animal lived thousands of miles away? Every modern zoo seems to have some giraffes so clearly they're not the hardest animal to rear and I assume Romans would have the capability and incentive to do so if there was a market for the meat.

    33. Re:Typical Roman cuisine by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      Look at a map some day, Ok?

      Sure, you'd best look at a map. After all it was impossible for Hannibal to march an entire army including war elephants through the Pyrenees then through the Alps right?

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    34. Re:Typical Roman cuisine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Switching to Windows Phone is a better idea."

      Just the contrary.

      Use a diamond studded iPhone if you want to get robbed,

      Use a Windows one if you don't, diamonds don't matter.

    35. Re:Typical Roman cuisine by usuallylost · · Score: 1

      I have to wonder whether that fair would have been considered all that elite. The upper class Romans were very prone to holding gladiatorial events where they pitted various wild animals against the gladiators. I wouldn’t be at all surprised to find out that the animals that lost ended up in the cook pots of the less affluent.

    36. Re:Typical Roman cuisine by gravis777 · · Score: 1

      Yes, but this still has me wondering. Meat spoils pretty fast if it is not refrigerated. Maybe they had ice ships or something and only transported in the winter, or maybe they had farms where they raised exotic animals for food supplies. Even if these animals were in Northern Africa, it would take a few days to cross the Mediterranian with wind / oars, and then it would have to have been transported over land or the Nile through Africa to the port in Africa, so it would be spoiled by the time they reached Pompeii

      Unless the ancient Italians knew about drying meats. Giraffe jearkey anyone?

      Actually, I wonder if maybe they trapped the animals, shipped them, and then slaughtered them at their destination. This would keep you from having spoilage.

    37. Re:Typical Roman cuisine by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      And I've never seen a hamburger grazing in a field. Just pointing out that sometimes meat and animal are referred to by different names, so there might be no records of Romans eating camel leopards, but plenty of records of them eating spotted steak.

    38. Re:Typical Roman cuisine by iMadeGhostzilla · · Score: 1

      The novel "Pompeii", FWIW, contains a scene describing exactly that -- a former slave who became rich treats the local nobility to some disgusting "delicacies" from rare and expensive animals, just to show off his new status.

    39. Re:Typical Roman cuisine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm guessing by "some areas" you mean mental institutions?

      Actually, by "some areas", I mean "whoosh".

    40. Re:Typical Roman cuisine by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 1
      Indeed, grindr also runs on Linux.

      But, he probably was thinking about the sorry state of public toilets on French Motorways...

    41. Re:Typical Roman cuisine by nytes · · Score: 1

      You may want to carve it or press it with a cookie cutter to make it look like it came from the animal - McDonald's does this all the time.

      I tried that, but I couldn't get anyone at the table to believe that spotted owl meat looks like little Santa Clauses.

      --
      -- I have monkeys in my pants.
    42. Re:Typical Roman cuisine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Look, I don't really care what your kink is so long as you keep it between yourself and your friends but if I see you in a seifuku I'm gonna have to vote Republican!

    43. Re:Typical Roman cuisine by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      TFA says this was in the section of the city that was "non-elite."

      Probably more to the point is that Pompeii itself was a fairly nondescript little town in a minor province. It's like finding giraffe on the menu in a diner in Peroria (or wherever it is where you should "see how it plays in P......").

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    44. Re:Typical Roman cuisine by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      "Better idea" than what? Self-immolation? Seppuku? Voting Republican?

      There are important differences between these?

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    45. Re:Typical Roman cuisine by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      a height enhancement aid for males.

      The Roman approach to height enhancement for males was to cut the other males off at the knee.

      Subtlety was never their strong point.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  3. maybe its good... by Connie_Lingus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    i don't know why people here are assuming it doesn't taste good...we really have no idea. ...and let's not forget, different cultures have radically different preferences in taste.

    it only takes one example, the Asian fondness for the to-our-western-palettes-horrific fruit Durian, to make this point.

    --
    never bring a twinkie to a food fight.
    1. Re:maybe its good... by Trepidity · · Score: 1

      we really have no idea

      Surely what giraffe meat tastes like is still known to mankind; it's not like they're extinct or anything...

    2. Re:maybe its good... by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      we really have no idea

      Surely what giraffe meat tastes like is still known to mankind; it's not like they're extinct or anything...

      We're not done eating them yet. Anyone for seconds? ;)

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    3. Re:maybe its good... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      maybe it's good ...we really have no idea.

      Don't be silly. Giraffe isn't on the endangered list. In South Africa and Botswana it's quite easy to get Giraffe, Hippo, Lion, and quite a few other "exotic" meats.

    4. Re:maybe its good... by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      I just googled for giraffe meat and I found quite a few people talking about eating it though I didn't find anywhere listing current prices and stock.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    5. Re:maybe its good... by Connie_Lingus · · Score: 1

      lol...yeah but who holds that knowledge?

      perhaps this is new area for Google.

      Google Meat ;)

      --
      never bring a twinkie to a food fight.
    6. Re:maybe its good... by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      it only takes one example, the Asian fondness for the to-our-western-palettes-horrific fruit Durian, to make this point.

      While durian smells terrible, the taste isn't that bad. A better example is a balut.

    7. Re:maybe its good... by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      Giraffe stock? Is that like Chicken stock?

    8. Re:maybe its good... by Nikker · · Score: 5, Funny

      Yes, but it comes in a much taller jar.

      --
      A loop, by its nature, continues. If that didn't make sense, start reading this sentence again.
    9. Re:maybe its good... by Mr.+Firewall · · Score: 1

      While durian smells terrible, the taste isn't that bad.

      I remember hearing the same thing about pussy, as a young man

      --
      In times of universal deceit, telling the truth gets you modded -1 Troll
    10. Re:maybe its good... by ArbitraryName · · Score: 1

      i don't know why people here are assuming it doesn't taste good...we really have no idea.

      Of course "we" have an idea. Giraffe meat is eaten in parts of Africa

    11. Re:maybe its good... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed. Many cultures have no taste whatsoever.

    12. Re:maybe its good... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Durian is delicious, it just smells bad.
      It would be popular in the west with good marketing.

    13. Re:maybe its good... by Phroggy · · Score: 1

      we really have no idea

      Surely what giraffe meat tastes like is still known to mankind; it's not like they're extinct or anything...

      As is so often the case, those of us posting here on Slashdot have no idea. Of course someone does, but we don't.

      --
      $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
      $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
    14. Re:maybe its good... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't worry, someday you'll get to debunk that one personally.

    15. Re:maybe its good... by Ozoner · · Score: 1

      Durian smells bad, but tastes wonderful

    16. Re:maybe its good... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Durian smells bad, but tastes wonderful

      It smells bad and tastes worse: I've had the "pleasure" of trying it...

    17. Re:maybe its good... by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      The problem with durian isnt how it hits your palette, its how it hits your nose.

    18. Re:maybe its good... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am an asian but I have never smelled nor tasted Durian. Stop stereotyping! It should mainly consumed by Chinese and/or South-east asians as far as I know.

    19. Re:maybe its good... by rts008 · · Score: 1

      I think you win with that gem!

      Well done! (the comment-not the giraffe-I would prefer mine rare)

      --
      Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
    20. Re:maybe its good... by jd2112 · · Score: 1

      Yes, but it comes in a much taller jar.

      With an extremely long neck.

      --
      Any insufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.
    21. Re:maybe its good... by jalopezp · · Score: 2

      The question was on quora not long ago. One guy said it tasted somewhere between beef and turkey, another said chicken but this may have been a joke. It's kind of hard to find online, but this place, giraffine, sells their meat, milk and fur. They also say it tastes like horse but more tender: lean and intense.

    22. Re:maybe its good... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do not google "meat" without the family safe feature turned on.

    23. Re:maybe its good... by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      Well, I've tried durian once. It was the worst thing I've ever tasted.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    24. Re:maybe its good... by cthulhu11 · · Score: 1

      I'm with AC on this -- I find both the smell and the taste revolting. Curiously, the raw people I've encountered are roughly 50/50 on loving/hating the stuff.

    25. Re:maybe its good... by Dabido · · Score: 1

      I have to agree. I'd assume flamingo would taste like chicken and giraffe probably tastes like water buffalo/cows. I think the Chinese and Japanese eat sea urchins to this day, so that isn't nec. too exotic except by western standards.

      I grew up in Malaysia from 4yo to 7yo, and didn't have a problem with durian. My father used to bring home lots of different fruits etc that were available in Malaysia that are not available in Australia. I think durian might be worse for grown ups, but like a lot of foods, if you start a child on it young enough they grow to like it (acquitted rase) if they don't like it to begin with. I don't mind durian flavoured lollies (Had some in Indonesia) but when I tried durian flavoured ice cream in Malaysia last time I was there it didn't work for me.

      --
      Sure enough, the cow costume was hanging up next to the superhero outfit and sailors uniform. (S,Spud)
  4. Some Things Are Still in the Stores Today by IonOtter · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Garum liquamen is still in the stores today, still doing the same things it did for the ancient Greeks and Romans. We know it as "fish sauce", with one of the most well-known names being Viet Huong 3 Crabs Fish Sauce.

    --
    [End Of Line]
    1. Re:Some Things Are Still in the Stores Today by Horshu · · Score: 1

      Not quite the same as the Roman recipe. Try Colatura for something closer to the real thing.

    2. Re:Some Things Are Still in the Stores Today by dbIII · · Score: 2

      I was once laughed at for checking the "best before" date on a bottle of fish sauce. It's already gone off.

    3. Re:Some Things Are Still in the Stores Today by camperdave · · Score: 1

      Meh. As far as I'm concerned, fish sauce is off the moment it's made, no matter what it says on the bottle.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    4. Re:Some Things Are Still in the Stores Today by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Both probably reasonably approximate sauces the Romans consumed. Garum and Liquamen recipes varied widely (indeed, at some point sin history, the two were considered interchangeable, while at other times, they were considered distinct products).

      There was no "real thing," only a range of salty fermented fish sauces.

    5. Re:Some Things Are Still in the Stores Today by whoever57 · · Score: 1

      Let me award you a "whoosh".

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    6. Re:Some Things Are Still in the Stores Today by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He's just way past his best before date, just like me :).

    7. Re:Some Things Are Still in the Stores Today by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Garum takes just a few days to make. Asian fish sauce is typically made over much longer periods.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    8. Re:Some Things Are Still in the Stores Today by Dynedain · · Score: 1

      Or Worcestershire sauce.

      --
      I'm out of my mind right now, but feel free to leave a message.....
    9. Re:Some Things Are Still in the Stores Today by IonOtter · · Score: 1

      Technically, you're correct. The researchers only had a few days in which to do it in a plastic bucket. Not exactly safe, either.

      According to records, garum was also made in large, clay jugs, just ilke the Asian sauce. The very best sauce was allowed to age for as long as 8 months, sometimes longer.

      The neat thing, is you got lots of stuff out of a single jar. The stuff off the very top was light a fine, rich amber, and commanded the highest prices. Further down, it was darker and got a good price. The glop at the bottom would be strained to get the next best liquid, and then returned to the jar and salt water added for another soaking to get yet more sauce out of the glop. Finally, the glop was sold to the lower classes to mix with their porridge and chick peas.

      --
      [End Of Line]
  5. The Asterix comics were right! by dbIII · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Romans eating Giraffe (with honey?) was mentioned in at least one of them.

    1. Re:The Asterix comics were right! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was thinking exactly the same! There was some mention of "stuffed giraffe neck" in one of them.

  6. exotic by belmolis · · Score: 4, Informative

    Sea urchins aren't exotic for Italy. They may be considered an exotic food in North America, but they're indigenous to the Mediterranean and eaten in the region.

    1. Re:exotic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sea urchins aren't exotic for Italy.

      That's right. I'm sure there were plenty of poor children living by the sea.

      I've never ate one myself, but I hear they taste like chicken.

    2. Re:exotic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is also pretty common in Asia, particular Japan where it part of a sushi meal.
      http://www.sushifaq.com/sushi-sashimi-info/sushi-item-profiles/sushi-items-uni-sea-urchin/

    3. Re:exotic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks. I was gonna say the same.

    4. Re:exotic by forand · · Score: 1

      Sea urchins are very common on the coast of Northern California. It is pretty much only eaten by fishermen and at Japanese restaurants though. Regardless, I suspect that the point of the article was that sea urchins aren't native to the sea immediately surrounding Pompeii. While it is likely Giraffes were walked from Africa, taking a barrel of sea water and sea urchins even 100 miles in a ox cart would still be considered just as exotic.

    5. Re:exotic by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "I suspect that the point of the article was that sea urchins aren't native to the sea immediately surrounding Pompeii"

      And they would be wrong. Basically there's no place all along Mediterranean coast where you can't find sea urchins.

    6. Re:exotic by ruir · · Score: 1

      Sea urchins exist in the atlantic and in the pacific too. The thing is that only in the mediterranean people eat them; although I remember picking them up in the beach in my childhood to use them as bait for fishing.

  7. wolf's nipples chips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    wolf's nipples chips.

    1. Re:wolf's nipples chips by DexterIsADog · · Score: 2

      Imagine over-frying the nipples in the fryolator and having to throw out the batch, while a nipple-less wolf stares accusingly at you.

      Maybe he nudges the legless frog in the wheel next to him and rolls his eyes.

  8. Re:HATE Endangered Species Platter! by Nidi62 · · Score: 2

    At least these animals were dying for a decent purpose: someone's meal. Exotic animals from Africa and Asia were often brought in to the Roman Empire for the simple purpose of being killed in the arena for sport. Of course, the Romans had no concept of "endangered species", nor is it likely that the giraffe was in fact endangered at that point in history(at least, not endangered by humans). And really, your rant makes no sense. It's not as if the tourists to Pompeii are standing around chowing down on roast giraffe legs or smoked tiger ribs. Should we stop eating cows or chickens, animals in abundance now, because they MAY be endangered 2000 years from now?

    --
    The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
  9. IAAL(AAA) (i am a lawyer and an archaeologist) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    And I've worked at Pompeii. Not sure where Ellis go the idea that there was ever a "traditional vision of some mass of hapless lemmings - scrounging for whatever they can pinch from the side of a street." Pompeii has long been known from both epigraphic and archaeological evidence to have been a prosperous seaside town and popular destination for well off Romans.

    That different restaurants and tabernae catered to various social strata comes as absolutely no surprise, especially given the fact that habitations in the site range from modest shacks to villas resplendent with sculpture, virtuoso frescoes, and fantastic mosaics. Given wealthy Romans' well-known penchant for exotic delicacies, the presence of giraffe, etc. shocks absolutely no one.

    1. Re:IAAL(AAA) (i am a lawyer and an archaeologist) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Hmm. On one hand we have a random anonymous dude on the internet making grandiose claims. On the other we have a PhD archaeologist regarded as a pioneer in fieldwork who heads up the Pompeii project.

      Gotta say I'm torn here.

    2. Re:IAAL(AAA) (i am a lawyer and an archaeologist) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nowadays it seems researchers aren't that reliable - too often they are ust hyping stuff up or even trolling just to get more funding - and not so concerned about uncovering the truth (if they uncovered the whole truth too soon, they would need to find something else to do and get funding for).

      Thus a random slashdot AC might actually be more believable than a random PhD researcher of today, especially if the AC's claims can be verified to have some basis in fact.

  10. About that giraffe by gargleblast · · Score: 4, Funny

    About that giraffe leg:

    "I'll have the large horse leg meal please."

    "Would you like to go supersize for an extra denarius?"

    "Err - yeah. Supersize me."

    1. Re:About that giraffe by Anne_Nonymous · · Score: 2

      Giraffe - gives new meaning to the term "haute cuisine".

    2. Re:About that giraffe by Rufty · · Score: 2

      Roast giraffe - that's a tall order.

      --
      Red to red, black to black. Switch it on, but stand well back.
  11. Meat from the Roman Games by jonze · · Score: 5, Informative

    Any Roman city with self esteem had an arena for gladiator games. Part of these was the mass slaughter of 'exotic' animals. Not just predators such as Lions and Tigers but Flamingo's, Giraf's, Anteloupes and the like. In fact, the capture and import of these animals was big business and Rome emptied entire regions of its wildlife. Lions, for instance, are still extinct in Syria as a result of the capture and transport of Lions to the arena's of Rome. Quite a bit of the meat from these games found it's way to the market and was even given to the poor to show the generosity of the games organizers.

    1. Re:Meat from the Roman Games by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As did Pompeii

    2. Re:Meat from the Roman Games by bluegutang · · Score: 1

      Not just predators such as Lions and Tigers but Flamingo's, Giraf's, Anteloupes and the like.

      You seem to be knowledgeable about history, but I hope you never teach English.

    3. Re:Meat from the Roman Games by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lions, for instance, are still extinct in Syria

      Still? Ok, ok, so you wait for some hundred years and extinct species pop up again? Man, I like your parallel universe, dinosaur burgers must taste great.

    4. Re:Meat from the Roman Games by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed. Did you see how he spells his own name?

    5. Re:Meat from the Roman Games by hawkfish · · Score: 1

      Not just predators such as Lions and Tigers but Flamingo's, Giraf's, Anteloupes and the like.

      You seem to be knowledgeable about history, but I hope you never teach English.

      Not to mention cooking...

      --
      You will not drink with us, but you would taste our steel? - Walter Matthau, The Pirates
  12. We don't serve no giraffe here! by BringsApples · · Score: 1

    According to Ellis, this was the first giraffe bone ever found during an archaeological excavation of ancient Roman Italy.

    What if that one piece of bone was a part of a funny advertizement that hung just outside the door? "We don't sell no giraffe here!"

    Seriously though, why would they speculate that it was something that was eaten, if they only found one?

    --
    Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.
    1. Re:We don't serve no giraffe here! by Rob+the+Bold · · Score: 1

      Seriously though, why would they speculate that it was something that was eaten, if they only found one?

      Because they ate all the rest, of course. . .

      --
      I am not a crackpot.
    2. Re:We don't serve no giraffe here! by ArbitraryName · · Score: 1

      Seriously though, why would they speculate that it was something that was eaten, if they only found one?

      Because it was butchered and in kitchen garbage.

  13. Wow you guys are tards. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Do you have ANY way of relating to the world and its history besides through windows-bashing or other discussions of gadgets? And ners are supposed to be smart.

    1. Re:Wow you guys are tards. by Dutchmaan · · Score: 1

      You will have to forgive my lack of intelligence on the matter, but what are "ners" and how do they relate to the intelligent narrative of the world and its history? Please explain with gadgetry references so that my feeble mind can grasp this child like concept.

    2. Re: Wow you guys are tards. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sorry, the correct answer is 'the moops'. Also, don't taunt the bubble boy.

    3. Re:Wow you guys are tards. by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      I dunno, do car analogies count as discussions of gadgets?

      I'd also argue that knowing your audience and communicating on their terms is a better approach than not.

  14. what ??? by giampy · · Score: 3, Informative

    ... I hear they taste like chicken.

    WHAT ??? Sea urchins taste like chicken ?? No way!! If you have to find a comparison perhaps caviar is the closer (but still far) one, since you basically eat the eggs of the female urchin.

    In any case sea urchins are more of a delicacy or condiment at best, not a consistent source of proteins. If anything because finding them, fishing them (and opening them) requires some dedicated manual effort, which is not easy to scale or automate.

    --
    We learn from history that we learn nothing from history - Tom Veneziano
    1. Re: what ??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sea urchins - urchin - poor raggedly dressed chilren. Sea urchin - child living by the sea. See?

    2. Re:what ??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whoosh!

    3. Re:what ??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Time I tried sea urchin (in Greece, decades ago) the look and taste of it reminded me of kiwi fruit more than anything else.

  15. Otters' noses by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Larks' tongues. Wrens' livers. Chaffinch brains. Jaguars' earlobes. Wolf nipple chips. Get 'em while they're hot. They're lovely. Dromedary pretzels, only half a denar. Tuscany fried bats.

    BRIAN: Larks' tongues. Otters' noses. Ocelot spleens.

    REG: Got any nuts?

    BRIAN: I haven't got any nuts. Sorry. I've got wrens' livers, badgers' spleens--

    REG: No, no, no.

    BRIAN: Otters' noses?

    REG: I don't want any of that Roman rubbish.

    JUDITH: Why don't you sell proper food?

    BRIAN: Proper food?

    REG: Yeah, not those rich imperialist tit-bits.

    BRIAN: Well, don't blame me. I didn't ask to sell this stuff.

    REG: All right. Bag of otters' noses, then.

  16. Why not? Giraffe is Kosher by mi · · Score: 3, Informative

    If the history's first FDA-like authority approved of giraffe even for the Chosen, why should we be surprised, the unenlightened pagans ate it?

    What is interesting in the article is that the Romans possessed the technology — and the economy — to bring such exotics foods into Italy from thousands of miles away in a manner, that, while possibly expensive, was still affordable for the citizenry.

    But we've known of such achievements for ages — Romans, for example, have largely stopped growing wheat in Italy long before Julius Caesar. Because it was cheaper to bring stuff over from Africa. (This made Egypt the place of strategic importance in the later civil wars.)

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    1. Re:Why not? Giraffe is Kosher by DerekLyons · · Score: 2

      Romans, for example, have largely stopped growing wheat in Italy long before Julius Caesar. Because it was cheaper to bring stuff over from Africa.

      Well, it's not *quite* as simple as that. They didn't stop growing wheat because it was cheap to bring it in from Africa - the patricians (nobles) who owned the land switched from wheat to grapes because there was more profit in wine than in flour. Then, to keep the plebs from rioting, they voted in the senate to have the goverment subsidize shipments of wheat from Africa.

    2. Re:Why not? Giraffe is Kosher by mi · · Score: 1

      They didn't stop growing wheat because it was cheap to bring it in from Africa - the patricians (nobles) who owned the land switched from wheat to grapes because there was more profit in wine than in flour. Then, to keep the plebs from rioting, they voted in the senate to have the goverment subsidize shipments of wheat from Africa.

      Which boils down to exactly (and *quite*) what I wrote — that bringing wheat from Egypt (and Sicily) was cheaper, than growing it locally.

      Who exactly did the growing is irrelevant although your attempt to insert the class warfare aspect is noted — and discarded with prejudice.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    3. Re:Why not? Giraffe is Kosher by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      Which boils down to exactly (and *quite*) what I wrote â" that bringing wheat from Egypt (and Sicily) was cheaper, than growing it locally.

      Not on any planet where both of us are speaking English or in any reality where you have an IQ above room temperature.
       

      your attempt to insert the class warfare aspect is noted â" and discarded with prejudice

      Discarding facts with prejudice? That's not a good sign generally.

    4. Re:Why not? Giraffe is Kosher by mi · · Score: 1

      Discarding facts with prejudice? That's not a good sign generally.

      Discarding irrelevant facts is a good thing — and a good sign for a discussion.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    5. Re:Why not? Giraffe is Kosher by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      These facts are very relevant, because they're the reason why the situation arose. And they are facts, which aren't subject to discussion.

  17. Roman Food Importing Logistics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why not just make 'em walk? They've got long enough legs.

  18. Re:HATE Endangered Species Platter! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Pff they were missing out they should have tried the Galapagos tortoise that's some good eats

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4k-l1HLj9Nk

  19. Giraffe? by Tablizer · · Score: 2

    That's a tall order.

  20. Re:HATE Endangered Species Platter! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Bro calm down it's just a bunch of animals. It's not like they are people.

  21. Camel - Leopards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Several centuries before the Romans, the Greeks named the giraffe "Camelopardalis" due to the belief that it was the offspring of a camel and a leopard. This name is retained to this day for the constellation of The Giraffe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camelopardalis).

    While there weren't wild giraffes wandering around Greece or Asia Minor in antiquity, there certainly were in north Africa, and so through trade, the Greeks were familiar enough with giraffes to assign them a Greek name (rather than borrow, say, a local Nubian or Carthaginian word for it), but ignorant of their mating habits. Perhaps they had only ever seen adult specimens...or maybe just skins.

    Whatever the truth, I've no doubt a giraffe dish in either the Greek or Roman style would be delicious.

  22. Hannibal by swb · · Score: 1

    Hannibal brought elephants into continental Europe.

    True, elephants to this day have a history of being used as draft animals, but he also brought them farther and under more difficult circumstances (war with Rome).

    Pompeii is in the southern part of the Italian peninsula and it doesn't seem unreasonable that giraffes could have been brought as livestock from Africa. Roman Carthage was an important city in the Roman empire and likely would have attracted all manner of exotic trade from Africa.

  23. Not complete truth by aurora1600 · · Score: 1

    They used to f...k Giraffe before eating them, proof try image search 'secret museum naples'

  24. Life of Brian by BlackSabbath · · Score: 1

    Ocelot spleens. Jaguar earlobes. Wolf nipple chips. Get 'em while they're hot, they're lovely.

  25. Re:HATE Endangered Species Platter! by jalopezp · · Score: 1

    Giraffes aren't endangered. It's like you don't actually care.

  26. You can buy endangered species steaks? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ..."Carnivore Restaurant" and other ESP restaurants encourage bushmeat trading. I hope a volcano erupts on top of them...

    Tell us where!! (and how much...)

  27. What are dellcacles? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hmmm?

  28. Yee-hah! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In Pompeii, when you walked into a bar and ordered a 'long neck', you actually got a long neck!

  29. "...brought it all crumbling down..." by EkriirkE · · Score: 1

    I thought the distinction behind Pompeii was that it, for the most part, did NOT come crumbling down.

    --
    from 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
    to 45 2F 6E 40 3C DF 10 71 4E 41 DF AA 25 7D 31 3F
  30. And the Lord did grin... by khelms · · Score: 1

    and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals and fruit bats and...

  31. Sea urchins by kbahey · · Score: 1

    Sea urchins, really the ovaries with roe in them, are still eaten in the Mediterranean. This applies to Alexandria in Egypt, and shared by today's Greeks, Italians and (I think) the south of France. They are eaten fresh with some lime juice squeezed on them.

  32. Re:HATE Endangered Species Platter! by painandgreed · · Score: 1

    No, not someone's meal. Someone's amusing. Or do you really think giraffe was a significant part of Rome feeding?

    I think you will find that the meat of all the animals killed in the arenas were sold or given away for food. This is usually the case and still the case for bull fights in Mexico and vacation hunting trips in South America by rich Americans. You'll also find that most animal sacrifices throughout history were also eaten. Once dedicated to the god, they were then eaten with small amount, usually inedible things anyway, being burnt at the altar. Any possible food was usually too precious to waste.

  33. Shall I carve? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Leg or breast or neck or neck or neck or neck or neck?