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Target Confirms Point-of-Sale Malware Was Used In Attack

wiredmikey writes "According to Target Chairman and CEO Gregg Steinhafel, point-of-sale (POS) malware was used in the recent attack that compromised millions of credit and debit card account numbers of customers across the country. Steinfhafel told CNBC's Becky Quick in an interview that malware was used in attacks that compromised the company's point of sale registers. According to a report from Reuters, Target and Neiman Marcus may not be alone, as other popular U.S. retailers may have been breached during the busy the holiday shopping season. According sources who spoke to Reuters, attackers used RAM scraper, or Memory parser malware to steal sensitive data from Target and other retail victims. Visa issued alerts about attacks utilizing these types of malware in April 2013 and again in August 2013. Memory parser malware targets payment card data being processed 'in the clear' (unencrypted) in a system's random access memory (RAM). 'The malware is configured to hook into a payment application binary responsible for processing payment transactions and extracts the systems memory for full track data,' Visa explained in a security advisory."

250 comments

  1. Malware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But was that malware also responsible for a first post?

  2. Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by ackthpt · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There's any number of ways their POS system could have been done securely, but somewhere a decision must have been made on costs, in regard to paring them down, which resulted in something about as secure as an intranet of unprotected Windows XP computers exposed to the internet. No isolated network, no encryption, dependence upon commodity *cough* Windows *cough* operating system, etc.

    I'm sure it all looked great, until this happened, then they get 200% more wise.

    Seems everywhere I go these cheap systems are in place and the malware may already be chugging along for years without detection.

    --

    A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    1. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by Stormy+Dragon · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Really, the card companies ought to be black boxing the readers, so that the POS system never has access to unencrypted transaction information to begin with. They really only need to know if the transaction was approved.

      They already do this for small retailers (those little card reader/tape dispenser thingies sitting next to the register). They need to start forcing a similar system on the big retailers.

    2. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by Penguinisto · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Seriously? Unless they radically alter how these things are built and networked, all it would take is one disgruntled cashier (or one willing to accept a percent of the take) + one register that isn't quite visible from the cameras + one appropriately-loaded USB stick (or similar device).

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    3. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by lgw · · Score: 2

      ATM number keyboards are special: they never let a PIN into the RAM of the ATM, only a slated hash of the PIN. (Most of them are also horribly flawed in that they also have a "normal" mode, allowing a hacked ATM to display a UI to harvest PINs in that mode. Sigh.)

      Use this same technique for card readers: the magstripe reader doesn't ever put the raw bits on the wire, only a salted hash of those bits, so that's all that's available to a RAM scraper.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    4. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by i.r.id10t · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm sure it all looked great, until this happened, then they get 200% more wise.

      Experience is learning from mistakes you make

      Wisdom is learning from the mistakes other people make

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
    5. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by houstonbofh · · Score: 2

      Not to mention that most of the popular POS systems run on XP, and still will for long after Microsoft has abandon it.

    6. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yes, I'm not sure why the unencrypted card stripe data needs to be anywhere except in the little black box (LBB) that swipes the card and the bank's computer.

      The interface between the cash register and LBB could/should be.
            I need this much money.
               
          Ok, here's the confirmation number.

    7. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by aviators99 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      In 2015, EMV becomes required in the US. Those retailers who don't black box their card readers will be 100% liable for fraud at their point-of-sale (including stolen cards).

    8. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by roc97007 · · Score: 2

      Windows XP? If only. I haven't seen a Target POS machine reboot, but the ones I've seen in other stores display the Windows 98 splash screen.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    9. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I'm very surprised that Target thinks that every register in every store was infected. Just getting them all running the same malware is a major feat. And how did this POS malware get ahold of the 70 million "guest" records that weren't on the POS devices?

    10. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by TWiTfan · · Score: 0

      Yeah, but upgrading the system costs money, which cuts into executive bonuses. And the CEO was REALLY wanting that mansion in the Alps this year.

      --
      The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
    11. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It is still much cheaper for these companies to offer "protection" and re-imburse card holders than to be proactive about security past a certain point.

      Until this changes (someone brings down the entire system, exposing *everything*), the companies will continue to operate as usual.

    12. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by udachny · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I build and support retail management systems, supply chain management, CRM, ERP for retailers, for suppliers, for shipping, logistics and such. The simplest way to use a bank terminal is NOT to connect it to a POS in the first place. But this means lack of integration and possible errors by a POS operator, if for example they have to indicate in the POS system whether the it was a cash or a card transaction, etc. We provide our own Linux based solutions for all parts of the business management, including integrated, linux based POS, but again, the way we integrate it, the POS doesn't even get to see the bank terminal information, it sends the total amount to the terminal and expects a confirmation or a rejection back from it, it doesn't operate the terminal, it is not even possible for the POS to know what is happening between the customer and the terminal. From my POV it is bad form to allow POS to know anything that the terminal does beyond final status of the transaction.

    13. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's any number of ways their POS system could have been done securely

      "Secure systems" don't exists, there's nothing, no hardware, no software that is 100% secure, at this point, people should be aware that, sooner or later, that anything they choose to trust WILL BE succesfully attacked by someone. You could build your systems aiming for the strongest security, but you'll never be 100% safe.
      That being said, they probably didn't build their systems thinking on client's security, that's for sure.

    14. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by MobyDisk · · Score: 2

      There isn't much we can do until there is end-to-end encryption in the purchasing process. The POS device should never even know your pin or credit card number.

    15. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by catfood · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's because they're not paying the full costs of the damage they allow through poor security practices. If they reimbursed you and me a millions of other people for our time and effort to clean up their mess, it wouldn't be cheaper than solving the problem.

    16. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by y86 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I'm sure it all looked great, until this happened, then they get 200% more wise.

      Seems everywhere I go these cheap systems are in place and the malware may already be chugging along for years without detection.

      I worked for a MAJOR retailer that was involved with a credit card crisis. The only reason the registers didn't get raped was the fact they ran linux. The actual POS servers ran Windows 2000 so that is what got cracked. Management was working hard to get away from these solid state linux computers for the "cost savings" in administration of the Windows platform. I can tell you that a multipurpose platform is not appropriate for a specialized task.

    17. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I bet Target and these companies all use the same POS vendor.

    18. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      ATM keypads don't generate hashes of your pin. They hold a cryptographic key that is dervied form another key from the network and then use the resulting key to encrypt your pin entry, but you are correct. Those keys and your pin number are held in memory on the pin pad.

    19. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by jeffmeden · · Score: 2

      DOOM is one of the most ported pieces of software in history, so it's only natural...

      http://www.techdigest.tv/2013/10/10_gadgets_that.html

    20. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Just not-picking, but EMV is not a requirement, but if a retailer doesnt have EMV capable POS/ATM readers and your bank does, then the retailer is liable for the fraud. If the retailer has EMv and the bank doesn', then the bank is liable for the fraud.

      Also, the deadline varies by acquiring network.

    21. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by omnichad · · Score: 1

      I think the problem is that the card terminals the banks issue aren't that great from a UI standpoint, and big businesses want to design that hardware, too. Target actually has a great UI as far as button sizes and ease of use. They should rethink integrating them at that level, but it's much harder to make their own black box. I think they'll have to look into that now.

    22. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which explains why POS is "point of sale" as well as "piece of shit".

    23. Re: Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Nope. But they all offshored their IT to India.

    24. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by afidel · · Score: 1

      Wow, smartcards are finally going to become standard, I had one for 2004 to 2009 and the chip was only used twice because there were essentially zero POS readers that supported the chips and the home reader for online banking required IE for an ActiveX control which I felt probably made it less secure than entering my password with an alternative browser.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    25. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by sunderland56 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      This.

      For the attack to happen the way Target says, there must be two MAJOR flaws in their network:

        - the POS machines must be accepting software updates from the network - to allow the attackers to download their firmware;

        - the POS machines must be able to connect to an arbitrary server not on the Target network - to allow the POS machines to transmit the collected data.

      There is no valid reason for either of these. Need to update firmware? Have the IT guy at each store do it manually. And, install a decent firewall so that random machines inside your store can't talk to the outside world. (This will both prevent security breaches, *and* stop the employees in the photo department from surfing the web when they're supposed to be working).

    26. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by DickBreath · · Score: 5, Informative

      > the card companies ought to be black boxing the readers, so that the POS system never has access to unencrypted transaction information

      You're on the right track. Keep going! Don't stop yet.

      How about black boxing the cards?!!!

      AKA, Smart Cards. The card itself has a complete computer running Java just like the SIM card in your GSM phone. The computer on the smart card is black boxed. That computer has a private certificate. When transactions are signed by the processor in the card itself, the certificate chain can be verified that the certificate within the smart card is genuine and signed the transaction. Attempting to learn the secret data within the smart card destroys the data, or at least is extremely expensive -- and would only compromise that card making the attack not economically attractive.

      --

      I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
    27. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by Tharkkun · · Score: 1

      Pretty sure they are using Windows 7. At least the ones in MN.

    28. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by afidel · · Score: 1

      Support for XP embedded runs longer than XP, and other than smalltime operations POS systems should be running XPe, though it's still only supported through January 30, 2017. PCI DSS will force the replacement of any XPe systems with Windows Embedded POSReady 2009 which is supported through 2024 or Windows Embedded POSReady 7 which is supported through 2026.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    29. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by Mashdar · · Score: 0

      I assume by "smartcard" you mean RFID. I took a razor blade to two of my credit cards, cutting out embedded chips, because I didn't want it to be read from inside my wallet....

    30. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by Havokmon · · Score: 2

      Yes, I'm not sure why the unencrypted card stripe data needs to be anywhere except in the little black box (LBB) that swipes the card and the bank's computer.

      The interface between the cash register and LBB could/should be.

      What bank? Here is the basic process:
      User (swipe)-> Merchant (dial)-> Front-End Processor (T1) -> card issuer.

      At least the first 6 digits need to be unencrypted so the transaction attempt can be routed to the correct bank. Of course, with terminals accepting Amex (15 digits), and proprietary cards - it's probably not even that easy.

      As it is, (though I've been out of the biz for 5 years), there are no terminals that encrypt the transaction end to end. The front-ends only accept unencrypted data (via encrypted transmission).

      --
      "I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
    31. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by Mashiki · · Score: 2

      What is it with people and thinking that a smartcard = RFID? And it seems to be mainly americans who should know better, damn it this is /. not a chan or reddit. But it sure seems to be devolving into both.

      Here, let the learning begin.
      Smartcard
      RFID

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    32. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by DigitAl56K · · Score: 1

      I worked for a MAJOR retailer that was involved with a credit card crisis. The only reason the registers didn't get raped was the fact they ran linux. The actual POS servers ran Windows 2000 so that is what got cracked.

      I know this is Slashdot, but that's a bit ridiculous, isn't it? Linux exploits are not exactly impossible to come by, and someone only need acquire one of these devices to start looking for them. The reason the registers didn't get hacked was because the information that they wanted was on the POS system. If there are millions of dollars that can be taken, and someone wants to take them, they're going to find a way whether it's Linux/Windows/Whatever else, so long at the POS network isn't secured.

      Or are you suggesting the RAM on a Linux POS would be invulnerable to scraping once an exploit was used?

    33. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by girlintraining · · Score: 4, Interesting

      In 2015, EMV becomes required in the US. Those retailers who don't black box their card readers will be 100% liable for fraud at their point-of-sale (including stolen cards).

      Retailers are 100% liable today. And that's the problem!

      EMV offers no additional protection whatsoever in a card present scenario unless the customer is required to enter a PIN. Which as you know.. convenience blah blah, speed blah, reasons. And nobody will. Even "einstein" level smart chips are useless without a PIN. What EMV was designed to do is reverse the precident that banks are responsible for bearing the costs of fraud unless the customer can be proven to have been negligent. All EMV is, is an attempt by the industry to dial things back to the way they were pre-2009 -- which was where they could claim the systems were perfect and infallible, therefore all liability is with the customer. It took an act of Congress, also known as the FSA, to override the courts and provide relief to the customers.It's taken a lot of work on the down-low getting key positions in the Senate filled by sympathetic Republicans, but behold! EMV: Now the courts and congress can be fully aligned in their desire to screw over the customer. It's motto might as well be Enter your PIN: Assume full liability.

      Also... I don't know what you think "black box" means, but merely separating the card swiper from the cashier's hands is not "black box" in IT; and that's all EMV does. In IT, black box means that the entire interface is subsumed into an external device, not networked, and not user-programmable, and it provides a pass/fail signal or similar. Retail will never, ever, go for this. Your name and zip code is embedded in the card; that's valuable marketing data. They're not going to reduce transactions to what would essentially be anonymous... this is just common sense.

      So I'm going to have to slap on the cliche "Citation Needed" onto your assertion. EMV has but one purpose -- to deprive consumers of any recourse to fraud in a card-present scenario, and to reduce liability to the banks in a CNP scenario as well. Fraud is a multi-billion dollar industry, and businesses like fixed costs. Everything about card transactions is a fixed cost to the bank, except for fraud. Make the customer responsible, and now everything is nice and orderly.

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    34. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by afidel · · Score: 1

      Exactly, looks pretty much like a full sized SIM card pad near one edge of the credit card.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    35. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by thaylin · · Score: 1

      Or maybe it is because the exploits they were using were made specifically for Windows, and not Linux . If the entire system was Linux it may have been harder all around to get the data.

      --
      When you cant win, ad hominem.
    36. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by JamieIanMacgregor · · Score: 1

      so could a customer plug in a device to the POS system which provides a confirmation no matter what data it's given?

    37. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by aviators99 · · Score: 2

      Clearly you have a good understanding of the issues with EMV.

      I was only talking about the "black box" nature and liability shift of EMV (in the context of TFA and the GP).

      The EMV (chip and pin) box handles encryption completely within the box, thus making it a "black box" in the way the GP was talking about. TFA talks about using memory scanner malware to read card data (and assumingly PII). The black box nature of the EMV box mitigates this threat very well, unless the manufacturer does something really stupid like running XP Embedded or something like that. But more likely this box is running some RTOS or an OS that can not easily have malware injected into it.

      The POS systems that currently read credit cards using USB card reading apparatus are extremely vulnerable, which is the point of TFA. Going to EMV takes the card/PIN encryption out of the realm of this particular vulnerability. Note that in the Target exploit, only encrypted PIN codes were harvested. That's because the encryption of debit card PIN codes is done via a separate "black box" PIN pad. So I don't think that there is any question that moving the encryption outside of the retail POS itself is a net gain to security and privacy. It also reduces skimming itself by having the card in the hands of the merchant staff much less, if at all.

      As far as the liability shift, here's a citation:
      http://www.firstdata.com/downloads/thought-leadership/EMV_US.pdf

    38. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by Fnord666 · · Score: 1

      Wow, smartcards are finally going to become standard, I had one for 2004 to 2009 and the chip was only used twice because there were essentially zero POS readers that supported the chips and the home reader for online banking required IE for an ActiveX control which I felt probably made it less secure than entering my password with an alternative browser.

      AMEX Blue by any chance?

      --
      'The tyrant will always find pretext for his tyranny.' - Aesop's Fables
    39. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by aviators99 · · Score: 1

      Note that in the Target exploit, only encrypted PIN codes were harvested.

      I may have written that a bit awkwardly. What I meant that the PIN codes that were harvested were all encrypted; not that only PIN codes were harvested.

    40. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you shop at Target a lot, you may have noticed that over the last 6 months or so, they rolled out new card readers at many of their stores (at least in Minneapolis, I suppose this might not be a national thing). As a point of reference, the old ones were red and Target branded, while the new ones are shiny, black and look just like every other card swipe machine on the planet.

      I had assumed that a firmware update to the swipe machine was the most likely culprit.

    41. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...There is no valid reason for either of these. Need to update firmware? Have the IT guy at each store do it manually...

      "IT guy at each store." Ha. Ha ha ha. Heheheheh! Funny!

    42. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by ShaunC · · Score: 2

      Need to update firmware? Have the IT guy at each store do it manually.

      Ha, ha, ha. An IT guy for each store? Where is the CEO's bonus supposed to come from if they're spending money on employees like that?

      --
      Thanks to the War on Drugs, it's easier to buy meth than it is to buy cold medicine!
    43. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by Fnord666 · · Score: 2

      Experience is learning from mistakes you make

      I thought experience was something that you get right after you need it.

      --
      'The tyrant will always find pretext for his tyranny.' - Aesop's Fables
    44. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by khellendros1984 · · Score: 1

      I assume that by "smartcard" they mean "smartcard", which is an often non-wireless technology in near-ubiquitous use throughout Europe for credit card authentication.

      --
      It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
    45. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by afidel · · Score: 1

      Nope, Visa card from Chase Manhattan and then one or two from BoA after they bought that particular line of cards from JP Morgan Chase. BoA eventually dropped the smartcard feature as an offering (probably due to cost and lack of POS adoption).

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    46. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      all it would take is one disgruntled cashier (or one willing to accept a percent of the take)

      Or one employee who reads slashdot and thinks you're doing the company or your government a favor by revealing sloppy security practices.

    47. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by DigitAl56K · · Score: 2

      Or maybe it is because the exploits they were using were made specifically for Windows, and not Linux .

      You miss the point entirely. Of course they were exploits made for Windows. They were targetting Windows-based devices. They didn't attack the devices because they ran Windows. They attacked them because they wanted the data. They would have attacked them if they had ran Linux, too.

      If the entire system was Linux it may have been harder all around to get the data.

      Why, because Linux is magic? They would need to find just one exploit that let's them get enough privileges to read the memory. That exploit could be in Linux, that exploit could be in the POS software that runs on Linux.

      I'm no Windows CE fanboy, believe me, but Linux doesn't make this problem go away via voodoo. This should be a story about securing their POS network, IDS, systems monitoring, how payment devices and the code that runs on them is verified, etc.

    48. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by J-1000 · · Score: 1

      For many businesses, there needs to be a way to queue transactions in cases where the credit processor is unavailable. Otherwise a simple internet outage will shut down your business. Are there readers that can do this? If not, the black box setup isn't going to work well in a lot of cases.

    49. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by jader3rd · · Score: 4, Informative

      Need to update firmware? Have the IT guy at each store do it manually.

      Wait, what? That's exactly the opposite of how a large shop runs their operations. You create an image that you want applied to all machines that match a certain profile, and then let the machines do the updates at a preconfigured time.

    50. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by DarkOx · · Score: 1

      I know right, I wish we could get a success rate that high on our legitimate patching efforts!

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    51. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm very surprised that Target thinks that every register in every store was infected. Just getting them all running the same malware is a major feat. And how did this POS malware get ahold of the 70 million "guest" records that weren't on the POS devices?

      A lot of retail POS systems rely on a thin client setup, with a main server in the backroom which is actually handling the transactions. Malware tends to tear through those types of network clusters like wildfire.

    52. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And good training is gained through considering exploit possibilities, simulating such exploits, and then defending against them ahead of time so that we can avoid these 'accidents'.

      Somebody else on here had the great idea of keeping these machines boxed in a Target network & needing manual updates instead of a network update. Sounds good to me.

    53. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by Spillman · · Score: 2, Informative

      the card number couldnt be hashed because the merchant's EFt processor routes the transaction to the cardholder's bank by using the BIN number which is the first 6 (usually) digits of the card nymber. the rest of the track 2 data could not be hashed either since it is used to calculate your pin by your bank.

      You might be interested in reading:

      ISO 8583

      and also, How pin checking generally works

      --
      sig?
    54. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by ackthpt · · Score: 1

      Or maybe it is because the exploits they were using were made specifically for Windows, and not Linux .

      You miss the point entirely. Of course they were exploits made for Windows. They were targetting Windows-based devices. They didn't attack the devices because they ran Windows. They attacked them because they wanted the data. They would have attacked them if they had ran Linux, too.

      If the entire system was Linux it may have been harder all around to get the data.

      Why, because Linux is magic? They would need to find just one exploit that let's them get enough privileges to read the memory. That exploit could be in Linux, that exploit could be in the POS software that runs on Linux.

      I'm no Windows CE fanboy, believe me, but Linux doesn't make this problem go away via voodoo. This should be a story about securing their POS network, IDS, systems monitoring, how payment devices and the code that runs on them is verified, etc.

      The big plus with Linux is the hacker needs to know more about the architecture of a POS station or server. Linux runs on many processors, so you can't just compile something and expect it to run at all. Windows runs on x86-anything, so you compile once and you're good to go.

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    55. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by Streetlight · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure whether the OS makes any difference, but I'm not an expert. The thing is, it seems to me, that in the US, the magnetic stripe on credit cards contains all it's information unencrypted and maybe in plain text. Even if the POS encrypts the data when the card is swiped, for a very short time the unencrypted data stays unencrypted and that's where it can be intercepted. The first step we need is to reissue all credit cards with encrypted information, update the POS terminals and anything else along the confirmation path to be able to handle that encrypted data. The other option might be to adopt the non-US system: use an RFID with encrypted data requiring entry of a pin in the POS terminal. This would be more expensive requiring new more expensive credit cards and POS hardware. It's unacceptable to just say that its less expensive to deal with the fall out than rebuild the credit card system. No one seems to consider the major inconvenience of those end users who have to deal with credit card fraud. Been there, done that. It's not fun.

      --
      In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell
    56. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by _merlin · · Score: 1

      I can tell you that a multipurpose platform is not appropriate for a specialized task.

      So how does Linux magically help? It's a "multi-purpose platform" if I ever saw one - trying to get into everything from embedded devices to routers to smartphones to web servers to desktops.

    57. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by IamTheRealMike · · Score: 1

      EMV offers no additional protection whatsoever in a card present scenario unless the customer is required to enter a PIN. Which as you know.. convenience blah blah, speed blah, reasons. And nobody will.

      You realize that hundreds of millions of people around the world routinely type in PIN numbers for every transaction, right? I've typed in a PIN for every card payment I've made for years, as have all my friends and family. We're not dead yet. I fail to see why Americans are somehow unable to deal with this when everyone else can.

      Anyway, you don't seem to understand how EMV rollouts work. People are not given a choice about PIN authentication. You do it, often into a portable device that is a bit like a specialised mobile phone but with a PIN pad, card slot, display and 3G connection that the waitress brought over to your table. The banks insist on it and so do the merchants. It takes about as much time as signing with a pen does.

    58. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by gman003 · · Score: 1

      I work as a programmer with various POS devices and other card readers on a regular basis, as the software I develop for integrates with many different devices. So for once I actually know what the fuck I'm talking about.

      Out of all the ones we currently use, the highest-quality by far is the one that uses an IBM terminal running Windows 7. It is also easily the most expensive. It's regular desktop Windows, but it's configured for automatic updates is about as secure as you can expect a Windows device to be. These do, in our case at least, require a direct internet connection, but they're pretty hardened out of the box because they were expected to be hooked up to the internet. I do not know how they transmit CC data, but for our integration at least communications are done over standard HTTPS (HTTP is still supported by our side, being phased out once we make sure no customers accidentally set HTTP).

      Meanwhile, the absolute worst is a piece of rubbish that continues to use 486 processors after they were discontinued, and runs an old version of Windows CE, with their main application apparently being written in Visual Basic. They talk to an on-site Windows server, which is usually set up and configured by someone with minimal training beyond this specific application (on our test server, they turned off the firewall completely rather than opening only select ports). They also transmit transaction data in the clear - we force our customers to use a VPN to connect to us if they insist on using these, as it is so highly insecure. These are also by far the cheapest POS we support, and is the only one I've seen at other stores. I won't name names for obvious reasons, but a regex that would match their name would likely match the vendor of their OS as well, if you catch my drift.

      It's not that they're cheaping out on the hardware - they're skimping on salaries, hiring whoever has a night-school certification for setting up the systems and not bothering to make sure anything's secured. It's like those SCADA systems that still have their default three-character password - failure of setup, not necessarily of hardware.

    59. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by Stormy+Dragon · · Score: 1

      Target may want to queue transactions, but so what? Why should Visa put its sensitive business data at the mercy of Target's IT security just because it makes things more convenient for Target? Target needs Visa a lot more than Visa needs Target.

    60. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by Stormy+Dragon · · Score: 1

      I don't know what you think "black box" means

      In this case I mean a device that provides the retailer with only the information they actually need to know (transaction approved/not approved) without exposing other sensitive information in an unecrypted fashion. Basically the credit processor should assume that the POS systems are compromised and handle the transcation appropriately rather than depending on a third party to protect their sensitive business data properly.

    61. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anyway, you don't seem to understand how EMV rollouts work. People are not given a choice about PIN authentication. You do it, often into a portable device that is a bit like a specialised mobile phone but with a PIN pad, card slot, display and 3G connection that the waitress brought over to your table. The banks insist on it and so do the merchants. It takes about as much time as signing with a pen does.

      Sounds like it's you who doesn't understand. You're correct that "people" (as in the people paying for their purchase with a card) aren't given a choice. However, the banks who issue the cards are given a choice, and the vast majority of them in the US have chosen to not use PIN authentication. Of all the EMV cards issued by US banks and credit unions, only about two of them are Chip and PIN; the rest are Chip and Signature. So maybe the bank you use insists on a PIN, but most of them here don't.

    62. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      BoA eventually dropped the smartcard feature as an offering (probably due to cost and lack of POS adoption).

      No, most Bank of America cards are available with the chip. View the list of all cards, then click the "More filters" link at the left, and one of the options you can check is "Chip Cards". I count 14 chip cards out of 21 total.

    63. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by matthewv789 · · Score: 2

      Indeed. But if you read the case study linked from here, you'll see that a major Target initiative over the past decade has been centralizing all of their internal systems, from inventory to pharmacy to in-store security to point-of-sale, into a single physical server per store running Microsoft Server 2008 and Hyper-V virtualization. Furthermore, the virtualization, OSes (some are AIX) and applications are all maintained and updated centrally, not by anyone physically in each store. (Target employs local contractors for in-store installation and maintenance.)

      Thus, anyone who is able to access the central source for updates could compromise every IT function running in all Target stores.

    64. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by JamieIanMacgregor · · Score: 1

      Thank you, correct answer.

    65. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by 14erCleaner · · Score: 1
      What the CEO really said was

      We eliminated the malware in the access point

      Which is completely different than "POS malware" - note he said the access point. I'm still betting this is an inside job, and one of their central billing computers had a little extra code in it that was sending the info across the net to some holding site.

      --
      Have you read my blog lately?
    66. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by afidel · · Score: 0

      tap to pay != smartcard
      tap to pay = RFID == lower security
      smartcard ==better security

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    67. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      There are other such systems like "Verified by Visa" as well. These are attempts to push the burden of proof for fraud to the consumer instead of the credit/processing company.

      Never sign up for those things and avoid at all costs.

    68. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have been working in the smartcard field for decades. We have attempted to push these systems and without fail (US) companies reject them as too expensive. Even though the fraud savings are proven to be more than the upfront costs. Companies reject the idea of losing money for even a single quarter... Gotta keep those stockholders happy.

      Good luck.

    69. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, experience is simply your time on the clock, wisdom is knowledge and learning from mistakes.

      Oh, and you are a fucking idiot.

    70. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Target and Neiman Marcus may not be alone, as other popular U.S. retailers may have been breached during the busy the holiday shopping season.

      Now how is it these companies can hold out and not immediately notifying the press to report when there hacked and there's no criminal liability against the company? Or by deploying emails, even using an "an emergency" home web page on there sites, you go on and the first thing you see is a clear cut single page warning about a hack, then a button to go to the stores usual web site, even mailing people or putting a warning on there flyers, from the mail, or in newspapers warning of this?

      I wonder how much the credit card companies get from such a hack, there's more then likely some loophole in the system/laws/regulations that helps them to make out off from this. They to should to have some type of immediate warning system for there costumers, or a better system that you suggested, it seems they would have learned by now.

    71. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      It's a "multi-purpose platform" if I ever saw one

      It's not a anything. There's a number of different distros, and when you install one you can generally choose the components you want and leave out the ones you don't.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    72. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by _merlin · · Score: 1

      It's not a anything. There's a number of different distros, and when you install one you can generally choose the components you want and leave out the ones you don't.

      There's still a minimum set of components you'll need to build a POS system, and if they're attacking your POS system they'll target one of them. Same applies to Windows anyway - you can strip Windows Embedded down pretty effectively, as they do to make the setup that Xbox games run.

    73. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by Solandri · · Score: 1

      For the attack to happen the way Target says, there must be two MAJOR flaws in their network:
      - the POS machines must be accepting software updates from the network - to allow the attackers to download their firmware;
      - the POS machines must be able to connect to an arbitrary server not on the Target network - to allow the POS machines to transmit the collected data.
      There is no valid reason for either of these.

      Just because you want it to not be possible doesn't mean it isn't possible. Worms can spread themselves to other POS machines without going through the regular update channels or a server. Even if you're firewalled and air-gapped, all it takes is one corrupt employee to introduce the worm to the internal network. Care to guess how many Target employees have that level of access to their POS network?

      The best protection I can think of is a physical write-protect switch which needs to be flipped before you can modify the software running on the POS. And even that is vulnerable to a corrupt employee modifying a legit firmware update so it carries the malware.

    74. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's because American businesses were cheap and decided that it was too expensive to switch to EMV the second it was available. Just like why Americans stubbornly cling to Imperial measurements, and various other obsolete standards.

      The Magnetic strip cards need to die. NOW. This is just the next volley in the credit card skimming wars, and won't end until EMV (Chip+pin) is is everywhere.

      But I'll tell you right now, and you can go find videos of it. EMV is no more secure from card-condoms/emulators and the Visa+Mastercard companies know it. Likewise with PayPass/NFC payments. There is absolutely nothing stopping someone from skimming the card numbers using NFC.

      What needs to happen is to stop using the "magnetic stripe" numbers, altogether, thus breaking the US bank/debit/credit card system. Since I don't see this happening, I'd expect another revision to EMV that requires the EMV process to actually bypass the retailer and push a purchase verification message to the user's smartphone to verify the cost. No secret price switches then, and skimming becomes useless since you can deny the payment instantly.

    75. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by fuzzywig · · Score: 1
      EMV/Chip&PIN is used extensively throughout Europe.

      You walk up, the clerk scans your purchases, you jam your card into the reader, wait a moment for it to be read, then type in your PIN and press enter. The clerk gets a message saying 'Payment accepted' and off you go.

      I don't see any reasons why this can't work in the USA if it works everywhere else.

    76. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by BVis · · Score: 1

      I don't see any reasons why this can't work in the USA if it works everywhere else.

      Because of the expense involved in replacing the current terminals with chip and pin-compatible models. Since nothing happens in this country if nobody can make a buck, and replacing these systems improves security, but decreases the bottom line, nobody will do it.

      --
      Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
    77. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by neokushan · · Score: 1

      It pretty much is exactly that. In fact, some of them are even called USIM's.

      --
      +1 IDisagreeSoHeMustBeATrollOrAnAstroturferOrAShill
    78. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by afidel · · Score: 1

      Actually after doing some research it turns out that some of the contactless cards actually contain a smart chip which does encrypted transactions rather than merely holding a copy of the magnetic stripe data in an easier to steal form, the problem is that as a consumer I have no way to know which type of chip is in any given card. Visa is phasing out MCD contactless cards but merchants have to support them through next year so I can guess that no new ones are being issued but without an advanced RFID scanner setup who knows?

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    79. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by neokushan · · Score: 2

      tap to pay = RFID == lower security

      Can we not spread bullshit and FUD on /. please?

      The "tap to pay" interface is linked directly to the smart card. There are some protocol differences to handle the faster nature of the transaction, but it's still EMV, it's still just as secure as the chip itself, it's just contactless.

      Even if the terminal itself was compromised and you could read the chip directly, you won't get anything useful from it. Sure, you'll get track2 data (i.e. the magstripe information) but it's useless for EMV as an EMV transaction has several layers of security. Encryption, hashing, cryptograms, essentially there's no way to replay a transaction even if you capture every bit of data from it. In EMV, the terminal isn't trusted, it just acts as an intermediary between card and host. Both the card AND the host can decide to decline a transaction. The card, at any point, can force a terminal to go online if it's not satisfied with the terminal (and will occasionally do so just for the sake of it, because certain floor limits have been hit) and if the terminal doesn't do this, the transaction is cancelled.
      AT BEST, a criminal could remotely pass through your card's APDU's wirelessly to another transmitter to perform a fraudulent transaction but contactless payments are limited by a maximum spend (usually something like $15 or $20) and will often still require your PIN to proceed.

      Your scaremongering isn't helping anyone, it's just causing people to stick with magstripe which is so insecure it's utterly laughable.

      --
      +1 IDisagreeSoHeMustBeATrollOrAnAstroturferOrAShill
    80. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by neokushan · · Score: 1

      This isn't a fault of EMV or chip technology, it's a fault of the banks and their attitude towards security.

      However in those instances, you still cannot clone a card (Unlike magstripe, which can be cloned trivially). While PIN makes it much more secure, there's still a huge benefit from moving to EMV. I.e. things like this target hack wouldn't have been possible under EMV cards, PIN or no PIN.

      --
      +1 IDisagreeSoHeMustBeATrollOrAnAstroturferOrAShill
    81. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by neokushan · · Score: 1

      That is essentially how EMV works. Transactions can be done offline, but the card can override the terminal and force it online (to the host) to proceed. Cards will do this for a whole number of reasons, making it difficult to predict. Data is cryptographically signed between card and host, so the terminal cannot tamper with it without voiding the whole transaction.

      If the card demands to go online and the terminal does not, it doesn't fall back, it just fails.

      --
      +1 IDisagreeSoHeMustBeATrollOrAnAstroturferOrAShill
    82. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by neokushan · · Score: 1

      Until there's a shift in liability that means merchants are suddenly liable for card fraud. Suddenly spending a couple of thousand on a new terminal is more cost effective than dealing with thousands in fraud every month.

      And it just so happens that's what's happening, with the liability shift beginning next year. There's currently a scramble behind the scenes to get everyone up to scratch before then. It's going to be messy, there's going to be casualties but like it or not, it's happening.

      --
      +1 IDisagreeSoHeMustBeATrollOrAnAstroturferOrAShill
    83. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by neokushan · · Score: 1

      Retailers are 100% liable today. And that's the problem!

      No they're not. Retailers pay a % of the transaction for "anti-fraud" measures, as part of the interchange fee.

      --
      +1 IDisagreeSoHeMustBeATrollOrAnAstroturferOrAShill
    84. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by BVis · · Score: 1

      This implies that those who make those decisions are capable of looking at it from that point of view. Fraud *might* not happen, so let's assume it won't, whereas those new terminals *definitely* will cost money RIGHT NOW, so they can't do it.

      --
      Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
    85. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by neokushan · · Score: 1

      Good for them, they'll end up pissing away more money than it costs to replace the terminal. Their loss. If people aren't capable of managing long term business expenses, that's not my or your issue.

      --
      +1 IDisagreeSoHeMustBeATrollOrAnAstroturferOrAShill
    86. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When did "tap to pay" come into the discussion? I thought we were talking about smartcards, and how most of Bank of America's current cards have them, contrary to your claim that "BoA eventually dropped the smartcard feature". While some cards also have "tap to pay", that's unrelated, and not what the discussion was about at all.

    87. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by Mashdar · · Score: 1

      It does not appear to be widely deployed in the USA. Looking at the pictures, I think I've seen one before, but I'm not even sure where. (My mother has an ecclectic collection of credit cards, so probably there.)

      The only thing I've ever had in my credit card was an RFID chip embedded between the laminated layers of plastic. With consumers calling everything "smart" these days, I figured that "smartcard" was just a trendy new term for something old. :)

      As long as it's not wireless, I'm for it. All of this don't-take-your-train-card-out-of-your-wallet stuff annoys me. (Especially if you have a seperate card for work.)

    88. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why, because Linux is magic?

      No because it a more coherent and secure design and implementation....not perfect, but better....way better.

    89. Re:Cheap architecture + short cuts = DOOM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seriously? Unless they radically alter how these things are built and networked, all it would take is one disgruntled cashier (or one willing to accept a percent of the take) + one register that isn't quite visible from the cameras + one appropriately-loaded USB stick (or similar device).

      Exactly. I've worked for Smart Source staffing agency where I would go in and update the POS and I could've easily download a malicious program. They never did a background check on me either. This goes for a lot of IT staffing companies like Barrister. Too many stores in different states makes it impossible for them to hire IT staff in house, so they contract it out to these staffing agencies.

  3. Somebody should be by soon by cold+fjord · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Somebody should be by soon to defend the l33t crackers involved in this. Can't wait to read it....

    "We did you a service, now you know." Of course they won't give up anything they managed to steal.

    Brace yourself for new laws.

    --
    much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    1. Re:Somebody should be by soon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Brace yourself for new laws.

      There is no need for new laws.

      There IS, however, a need to pay with cash, at Target and any other
      store which uses poor security procedures.

    2. Re:Somebody should be by soon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      There IS, however, a need to pay with cash, at Target and any other store which uses poor security procedures.

      They don't advertise their poor security practices. Should we just ask the cashier?

    3. Re:Somebody should be by soon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Brace yourself for new laws.

      There is no need for new laws.

      There IS, however, a need to pay with cash, at Target and any other store which uses poor security procedures.

      Don't know how this is in the US, but where I live the credit card companies would cover all fraud. As long as you use credit card and not debit card you are good.

    4. Re:Somebody should be by soon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, the hackers here got some actual money out of it, so they're not going to blab on twitter about how they totes did it for the lulz.

    5. Re:Somebody should be by soon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the US, both credit and debit transactions are protected from fraud, although the customer is in theory responsible for the first $50. The last two times I had a debit cart stolen, my credit union waved that $50 thing; your mileage may vary.

    6. Re:Somebody should be by soon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > There is no need for new laws.

      when has that ever been an impediment to the creation of new laws in the past?

    7. Re:Somebody should be by soon by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      IIRC "Lulzsec" did both. Hacktivism publicly and money secretly.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    8. Re: Somebody should be by soon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Debit cards and Credit cards have vastly different protections.

      Credit card fraud.? Ok we will reverse the transactions and canel and reissue you another card.

      Debit card fraud? Here fill out this form and in 6-9 weeks after we investigate maybe we will refund your money back into your bank account (hint your account is already zeroed, hope no bills are due in the next month)... Oh and you will probably want to close out your existing account and open a new one.

      Debit cards should only be used for one thing, getting cash out of an ATM. Even that they are dangerous to carry around with you, kind of like carrying your bank balance around in cash on you.

    9. Re: Somebody should be by soon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Debit cards and Credit cards have vastly different protections.

      Credit card fraud.? Ok we will reverse the transactions and canel and reissue you another card.

      Debit card fraud? Here fill out this form and in 6-9 weeks after we investigate maybe we will refund your money back into your bank account (hint your account is already zeroed, hope no bills are due in the next month)... Oh and you will probably want to close out your existing account and open a new one.

      Debit cards should only be used for one thing, getting cash out of an ATM. Even that they are dangerous to carry around with you, kind of like carrying your bank balance around in cash on you.

      This! If I hadn't already commented above I would have spent one of the mod points I actually do have on this post.

  4. CASH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's the only answer to limit exposure to mass fraud.

    1. Re:CASH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's the only answer to limit exposure to mass fraud.

      Yeah, because there were no fraud before electronic transactions.. Last report I saw (admittedly around a year ago), old style "manual" money fraud (counterfeit, impersonating, etc.) was still estimated to exceed electronic fraud by order of magnitude.

    2. Re:CASH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure. However, if you use cash, the thieves a) will never, ever be able to draw against your debit and credit cards because a vulnerability at the retail level, b) won't have access to any meaningful quantity of your personal information. The same cannot be said of credit and debit.

      Indeed, as a cash customer of a hacked retailer, the very worst the criminals can do to you is to get is anonymous aggregate information, or perhaps your purchasing history if you use a club card or something along those lines. In other words, not terribly valuable stuff, other than to a retailer.

      The liability on old style money fraud is largely borne on the seller, not on individual customers. You could argue the buyer ultimately pays, but it's an infinitesimal amount compared to the damage one impersonator can do to you on a personal level, once they have all of your info. And consider this a bonus: with cash, you can't spend money you don't have in your hand right then and there, which forces you to either plan ahead, or to save up. That's a great way to not get into the credit card debt treadmill.

    3. Re:CASH by RabidReindeer · · Score: 1

      It's the only answer to limit exposure to mass fraud.

      Yeah, because there were no fraud before electronic transactions.. Last report I saw (admittedly around a year ago), old style "manual" money fraud (counterfeit, impersonating, etc.) was still estimated to exceed electronic fraud by order of magnitude.

      The difference is in Efficiency. A counterfeiter can only attack a limited number of victims due to the physical requirement to pass the actual cash. A one-off identity thief is likewise limited.

      But when you can harvest millions of identities in one operation, it can potentially impact the entire economy and at a minimum put a major hurt on the invaded business.

      But dealing with cash can get you on government watchlists.

  5. POS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Those piece of shit registers..

    1. Re:POS by SleazyRidr · · Score: 1

      I've been reading through the comments and finding that both uses of the acronym are appropriate for most of the occurrences.

  6. What they bought with said data.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ..an amazon prime subscription here. What have you [unlucky ones] had to phone the fraud department about?

    1. Re:What they bought with said data.. by i.r.id10t · · Score: 1

      Nothing - they called us (Visa branded gas card). Sent a new card automatically, called ot let us know why our current card wasn't good any more, the fact that someone tried to run a $1500 purchase on it an hour ago, and that a new card was in the mail.

      Kinda impressive as far as customer service goes in my opinion.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
    2. Re:What they bought with said data.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ..an amazon prime subscription here. What have you [unlucky ones] had to phone the fraud department about?

      Damn that's seriously stupid thief. You buy actual goods and gift cards with stolen credit cards.. Or better, you sell the data to some stupid people.

    3. Re:What they bought with said data.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hmm what I wrote can be read different ways, I phoned in a fraud case just last night over an amazon subscription charge. Better? I was curious if anyone else got stuck with something and what it was.

    4. Re:What they bought with said data.. by hawguy · · Score: 1

      ..an amazon prime subscription here. What have you [unlucky ones] had to phone the fraud department about?

      Damn that's seriously stupid thief. You buy actual goods and gift cards with stolen credit cards.. Or better, you sell the data to some stupid people.

      Why not buy an amazon prime subscription if it saves him money? The card thief likely wants to ship as many packages as possible as quickly as possible to whoever is fencing or forwarding the goods for him, so an Amazon Prime membership might make sense to get the $3.99 one-day shipping.

  7. Cash only economy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Once enough of these flaws of electronic currency exchange are exposed, people will begin the slow march back to a cash only economy. Spectacular displays of insecurity will serve to highlight just how insecure the current system is, with low bidder technology and programmers who simply do not understand security. The cancer will eat the current systems from within and large domination bills and precious metals will become the law of the land. Currently, I keep at least $1000 dollars in cash with me at all times.

    1. Re:Cash only economy by houstonbofh · · Score: 1

      Currently, I keep at least $1000 dollars in cash with me at all times.

      Where do you live? ;)
      However, no one yet has a method for taking cash over the phone or internet. It could end up being cash and Bitcoin, or cash and something else, but cash does not solve all problems.

    2. Re:Cash only economy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a delicate balance; you fear corporations (by their tracking and by their poor security) so you carry lots of cash more than you fear getting mugged. Until you get mugged. Put extra cash in a safe at home (or use ATMs more often) and only walk around with the most you could spend in one day. Refill when you put your wallet in your pocket/purse. Going to the store for a bigger purchase? Put more money in your wallet. Keep extra cash in a money pouch in your sock or in a money belt for impulse buys. This actually helps you spend less, too.

    3. Re:Cash only economy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Mmm...Will you be walking down any dark alleys in the near future? I'd love to discuss your methods in person, you see...

    4. Re:Cash only economy by jythie · · Score: 2

      And that is why it is unlikely there will be some big (or slow) revolution to go cash based. All the methods of handling your money have advantages, disadvantages, emotional attachments, and probabilities associated with them, with each person or demographic group weighing them differently.

    5. Re:Cash only economy by alen · · Score: 4, Insightful

      let's see
      in the 80's when soldiers would get paid in cash or real paper checks they would get robbed outside the army base gates on their way to the bank. direct deposit solved that issue

      used to be that people kept cash at home. but if your home burns down or you are robbed or whatever, you lose all your money. with CC's you dispute charges and don't lose a dime

    6. Re:Cash only economy by JeffAtl · · Score: 1

      Better not let cops know that you carry that much cash with you or it will get seized.

    7. Re:Cash only economy by mlts · · Score: 2

      The people who have been pushing gold and silver on us for a while have said the same thing. However, there are a few problems with that:

      1: If someone even got an inkling that someone was carrying a large amount of cash for a purchase, they likely would be mugged. Someone nearby seeing someone at McDonalds having a large wad in their wallet might make them a prime target. The reason why muggings are down is because it is a lot harder to make any useful money from a pile of credit cards. It can be done, but it is easily traced.

      2: Fundamentally, our currency exchange system is working. It just needs a cryptographic overhaul, work with tokenization, and separation of duties. That way, it would require attacking individual registers physically instead of pushing code from remote, and even then, the "black box" that one inputs a PIN from would be isolated, so one might get a hashed, encrypted value, and that's it.

      3: Physical cash is slower. I can make a purchase online in seconds. To do the same thing in paper bills would take days to weeks.

    8. Re:Cash only economy by mythosaz · · Score: 3, Interesting

      ...then they better start patting down everyone entering or exiting casinos.

      As a degenerate gambler and poker player (two different things), I've regularly got plenty of cash on me, and it's never, ever, been a problem. Thousands of people show up to the WSOP every year and pay for buy-ins in cash. Every poker forum gets the same question asked to it ever year before the WSOP, "How do I bring 10-20k in cash with me to the WSOP?" ...and the same answer gets given every year. If you don't want to just wire your entry fee to the tournament cage (or your bankroll to a casino host), or you plan on just playing cash games, call your bank, tell them you're going to withdraw a bunch of cash - so they can have a bunch on hand - then take it with you to the event. If someone says, "Hey's what's all this cash," you say, "I'm a poker player." Works for thousands of us every time.

      Of course, I don't wander crack alleys with it, so, YMMV.

    9. Re:Cash only economy by omnichad · · Score: 1

      Right. With credit cards, you're basically getting free insurance paid for by people who keep loads of interest-bearing debt.

    10. Re:Cash only economy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just free insurance? You're getting ripped off. I get a 2% deduction on every single purchase with mine, on top of the insurance.

    11. Re:Cash only economy by JeffAtl · · Score: 2

      Of course cops outside of casinos wouldn't do that as it would destroy the local economy. I'm referring to getting pulled over at a traffic stop.

      If you get pulled over and a cop finds out that you are carrying $10-20k, there is a likely chance it will get seized. Just google "cash seized on way to buy car". Boats, planes, homes can be substituted for "car".

    12. Re:Cash only economy by mythosaz · · Score: 2

      I'm not sure what you mean by "likely a chance."

      It's certainly not likely that it'll get seized, but of course there's a chance -- it happens.

      I did your Google search, and the first article I read referenced The New Yorker as its source. Reading it, I got:

      The officers found the couple’s cash and a marbled-glass pipe that Boatright said was a gift for her sister-in-law, and escorted them across town to the police station.

      I'm not a fan of broad asset seizures for drug busts, but it wasn't carrying cash that got these two in trouble. It was putting cash in the same container as their pot-smoking equipment. The officers allege the smell of drugs, claim the couple was smoking, but didn't find any pot in the bust.

      The moral of the story is that police are certainly overzealous in the use of forfeiture items to line their pockets and supplement their budgets, but they're not just out seizing cash from people, and carrying cash in and of itself isn't "likely" to get it seized.

    13. Re:Cash only economy by SacredNaCl · · Score: 1

      The reason muggings are down is because most states got serious about prosecuting muggers with rather nasty penalties. 10 year MANDATORY sentence in most states, tack on another 3 for armed criminal action, and the top end is life without the possibility of parole with an average of 23 years handed out. Plus prosecutors still have the option of going federal with any gun crime to tack on 5 years of federal time.

      Muggers and armed robbers typically have a very short career.

      --
      Freedom is merely privilege extended unless enjoyed by one and all.
    14. Re:Cash only economy by Chuck+Chunder · · Score: 1

      Right. With credit cards, you're basically getting free insurance paid for by people who keep loads of interest-bearing debt.

      Don't be silly. That money stays with the financial institutions involved. Any money that needs to be refunded due to fraud comes from the merchants who accepted the card (with a hefty fee attached too).

      --
      Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
    15. Re:Cash only economy by mjwx · · Score: 1

      let's see
      in the 80's when soldiers would get paid in cash or real paper checks they would get robbed outside the army base gates on their way to the bank. direct deposit solved that issue

      used to be that people kept cash at home. but if your home burns down or you are robbed or whatever, you lose all your money. with CC's you dispute charges and don't lose a dime

      Except the 3% or so the bank charges the merchant for accepting your card.

      Its the perfect scam, get you (the consumer) addicted to using credit, then charge the merchant for accepting it. The merchant cant say no because you (the credit addled) get uppity and make a scene. Welcome to the false economy of credit cards

      Only an absolute idiot believes that banks do things for free, anything for free.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  8. Inside job? by BringsApples · · Score: 5, Interesting
    All quotes from TFA:

    "Smaller breaches on at least three other well-known U.S. retailers took place and were conducted using similar techniques as the one on Target," Reuters reported, citing sources familiar with the attacks. "Those breaches have yet to come to light...

    What the hell, why not? I had to cancel one of my family debit cards because of Target, do I now have to cancel my other one from an unnamed store?

    After gaining access to a merchant’s network, attackers can install memory-parsing malware on register systems or backend processing servers to extract magnetic-stripe data as it moves through the through the payment process.

    How are they gaining access to Target's network? Maybe it's from the ever-famous wireless network that's in all Target stores, and is prone to attacks, based purely on it's password policy (changes automatically once a month - or doesn't at all - I hear)

    “The malware is configured to hook into a payment application binary responsible for processing payment transactions and extracts the systems memory for full track data,” Visa explained in a security advisory.

    Again, how did they not only get into the system, but how'd they know the executable binary that was running? I mean, this isn't something that was done in one day, it had to be a collective goal for more than one person.

    Visa first warned about these types of attacks targeting grocery merchants, but said merchant segment is vulnerable. According to Visa, these types memory parser malware attacks have been found only targeting Windows-based operating systems.

    This one is my favorite. Why any retailer is running Windows on a POS PC is beyond anyone that knows how computers work. It should be illegal.

    In March 2013, new malware was found targeting point-of-sale (POS) systems and ATMs and was behind the theft of payment card information from several US banks. Called "Dump Memory Grabber", the malware scans the memory of point-of-sale systems and ATMs looking for credit card data.

    And how the shit does one gain access to an ATM's RAM?

    All in all, I feel that this must have been an inside job of some kind. Not just a Target employee, but a Target employee(s) and someone who has access to ATMs inner-workings.

    --
    Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.
    1. Re:Inside job? by houstonbofh · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This one is my favorite. Why any retailer is running Windows on a POS PC is beyond anyone that knows how computers work. It should be illegal.

      GEtting PCI compliance certification is not cheap, and you need it if you want integrated payment. So far, not a lot of open source POS systems are lining up to pay for certification...

    2. Re:Inside job? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, there are a lot of underemployed individuals. Maybe some disgruntled tech workers that were let go and got hired on at Target decided to go for it. Likely easier then we realize, especially for someone who knows about atm and pos systems.

    3. Re:Inside job? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Never, ever, use a debit card for anything. Use a credit card and pay it off. Stolen credit cards can cause you headaches, stolen debit cards can ruin your life.

    4. Re:Inside job? by EMG+at+MU · · Score: 1

      Visa first warned about these types of attacks targeting grocery merchants, but said merchant segment is vulnerable. According to Visa, these types memory parser malware attacks have been found only targeting Windows-based operating systems.

      This one is my favorite. Why any retailer is running Windows on a POS PC is beyond anyone that knows how computers work. It should be illegal.

      Um...everyone uses Windows on POS PCs. Usually a customized WinXP embedded install. Windows devs are cheap, and a lot of the POS app work is outsourced to places it seems are more comfortable with windows.

      Retailers aren't tech companies. There is usually a small group of IT people who are part POS engineers, part vendor management. Most retailers rely on vendors or other companies to provide them with complete systems and support/installation services.

    5. Re:Inside job? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, I'd reverse this a bit and carry a prepaid credit card that you can easily refill. That way if your "credit" card gets snatched, your risk is only what you currently have in the account. You can do the same thing by keeping a small checking account with a debit card and limit your account balance to what you can afford to loose. Then if the card is stolen, call the bank right after transferring your full balance out.

      Your point is well taken though. A debit card connected directly to your checking account is a huge risk, especially if it is your main way to pay bills and has links to your savings. NEVER link your checking account to your savings where the bank can automatically transfer funds. A debit card is also usually a key to getting access online to your account.

    6. Re:Inside job? by Reibisch · · Score: 2

      This one is my favorite. Why any retailer is running Windows on a POS PC is beyond anyone that knows how computers work. It should be illegal.

      So you're saying that you're a security by obscurity advocate then.

      Not running on an embedded Windows installation might seem like a safe bet, but as TFA mentions, this vector had to do with processing the payments in the clear -- simply running another OS doesn't necessarily give you that for free.

    7. Re:Inside job? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd like to add that this is not always the fault of Windows. Smart people who know what they are doing can provide a secure Windows NT solution. Wannabe administrators make insecure systems period, end of story. They use Windows for a variety of reasons but the bottom line is this: If they had to use Linux then they would go Ubuntu, KDE, or whatever holds their hand through the muck. They would build an insecure Linux network and still get compromised.

    8. Re:Inside job? by BringsApples · · Score: 1

      You have a very good point. However, the bank where I do banking seems to be very good about returning funds if I tell them about fraudulent charges. I just have to fill out a form. They get with the place where whatever product(s) was purchased, and they work out some agreement. 9 times out of 10, the 'store' can tell that the purchaser was not who they claimed to be, but it has to be brought to their attention.

      --
      Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.
    9. Re:Inside job? by rmstar · · Score: 1

      GEtting PCI compliance certification is not cheap, and you need it if you want integrated payment. So far, not a lot of open source POS systems are lining up to pay for certification...

      Oh I get it. You run a POS software on a POS operating system on a POS hardware? And that's why the system stinks!!

    10. Re:Inside job? by tgd · · Score: 1

      This one is my favorite. Why any retailer is running Windows on a POS PC is beyond anyone that knows how computers work. It should be illegal.

      GEtting PCI compliance certification is not cheap, and you need it if you want integrated payment. So far, not a lot of open source POS systems are lining up to pay for certification...

      Once you've crossed the "root" security boundary, its just as easy to access the raw memory in Linux as it is in Windows.

      And its not hard to elevate to those rights on either platform. Vulnerabilities exist on everything.

    11. Re:Inside job? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This one is my favorite. Why any retailer is running Windows on a POS PC is beyond anyone that knows how computers work. It should be illegal.

      GEtting PCI compliance certification is not cheap, and you need it if you want integrated payment. So far, not a lot of open source POS systems are lining up to pay for certification...

      Well (I know many Slashdotters won't like what I'm about to say) there is, or was, SCO. It's not open-source, but it _is_ an open platform, and it's quite a bit more resistant to malware and viruses, if configured half-ass decently.

    12. Re:Inside job? by omnichad · · Score: 1

      but how'd they know the executable binary that was running?

      It was scanning the RAM. They didn't need to know what binary. They were likely just looking for credit card data using the luhn algorithm against ALL of the RAM for any string of 15 or 16 digits. With a hit, they can widen the net and grab all of track 1 and track 2 data. RAM is very fast.

      To gain access to the RAM, you only need a privilege escalation exploit.

    13. Re:Inside job? by DickBreath · · Score: 1

      Since SCO sues their own customers if their customers run any Linux and don't have a SCOsource license, it would be stupid to become a customer of SCO.

      --

      I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
    14. Re:Inside job? by BringsApples · · Score: 1

      You sound like you know a good bit more about this than I. If you don't mind my asking, do you feel that something of this magnitude was an inside job?

      --
      Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.
    15. Re:Inside job? by cdrudge · · Score: 1

      Stolen credit cards can cause you headaches, stolen debit cards can ruin your life.

      Get a better bank/credit union.

      I've had issues with my Visa debit card several times over the years. I've never once had an issue where funds were not immediately deposited into my account on a provisional basis during the investigation of the transaction(s). It was a hassle while the bank sent out a new card when the old card was deactivated to prevent further further transactions, but hardly life ruining.

    16. Re:Inside job? by bloodhawk · · Score: 1

      How is a prepaid card better in any way? You have moved the liability from the credit card company to yourself. If your card gets stolen and used before you can stop it tjem it is YOUR money that is lost. In the case of a credit card the liability stays with the credit card company and at most you may be inconvenienced.. With a prepaid even if you eventually get your money back it is still YOUR money that is lost.

    17. Re:Inside job? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This one is my favorite. Why any retailer is running Windows on a POS PC is beyond anyone that knows how computers work. It should be illegal.
       
      If I can prove to you that the same can be done on your precious Linux will you promise to never post again and never buy anything again? After all, "inside job" = root access. I bet you it could be done with the greatest of ease...

    18. Re:Inside job? by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      I take it you've never seen an ATM blue screen and reboot with the NT4 splash screen.

    19. Re:Inside job? by BringsApples · · Score: 1

      Actually no, I haven't. But how do you access the OS? Surely there's a need for a keyboard, that plugs into some internal port, accessible only by opening the ATM. Right? Maybe I'm being naive. Do you know?

      --
      Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.
    20. Re:Inside job? by omnichad · · Score: 1

      It probably was, but it could have been social engineering. If you put on a red polo and khakis, they'll probably let you walk anywhere in a retail store without thinking.

      I once made the mistake of wearing a blue polo to Best Buy and the employees said hi and asked when I started.

    21. Re:Inside job? by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      No clue, but I remember seeing an ATM in a bluescreen reboot loop in 2006. I'm betting the manufacturers haven't upgraded their base OS too much since then.

    22. Re:Inside job? by BringsApples · · Score: 1

      Hell I hope so. 2006 was 8 years ago. Then again, I figured that they'd be running some Unix variant, so what do I know.

      --
      Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.
    23. Re:Inside job? by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      But remember, I saw a Windows NT4 splash screen in 2006. That was the heyday of Windows XP and Server2003, and Vista was fast becoming a reality.

    24. Re:Inside job? by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      And NT4 was EOL Dec31st 2004 (originally scheduled for same date 2003).

    25. Re:Inside job? by DarkOx · · Score: 1

      Do you want to rely on the good graces of your bank to take care of you or do you want the law on your side for certain. The best advice is don't use a debit card; use credit and pay it off.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    26. Re:Inside job? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Once you've crossed the "root" security boundary, its just as easy to access the raw memory in Linux as it is in Windows.

      One of these things is not like the other!

  9. Testing Methodology vs Cost Effectiveness. by pillageplunder · · Score: 1

    For Retailers and Credit card providers both, it appears their ability to understand the validity of robust security testing and practices revolves around cost. Not having to pay any perceived penalty due to a data breach means these corporate types can assign a relatively low risk to data breaches. Low risk usually means low test efforts as well. And this is what we as consumers appear to be satisfied with. I'm more of the opinion that if you have a data breach, it should cost you as a company X dollars per person affected...and start X somewhere above 5 figures. Each person would get that payout. How serious then would corporations take data security?

    --
    "Work is the curse of the drinking class" Oscar Wilde
    1. Re: Testing Methodology vs Cost Effectiveness. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually they are on the hook for all losses by consumers and can be fined $10,000 per lost consumer piece of data (no whether or not its enforced it a different thing).

      It's not a small fine they are looking at.

    2. Re:Testing Methodology vs Cost Effectiveness. by omnichad · · Score: 1

      and start X somewhere above 5 figures. Each person would get that payout. How serious then would corporations take data security?

      What businesses would be left? $10,000 x 70,000,000 puts Target out of business. And overall, I'd rather see them survive than Wal-Mart.

    3. Re:Testing Methodology vs Cost Effectiveness. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah of course, because this hasnt cost Target anything.

  10. Which online retailer paid for the hack? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just wondering.

    1. Re:Which online retailer paid for the hack? by hcs_$reboot · · Score: 1

      They should put the RIAA and all their huge means on this. That's a more interesting challenge compared to their regular cd copier.

      --
      Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
  11. Target Confirms Point-of-Sale Malware Was Used In by danielpauldavis · · Score: 1

    Only shop at $0.99 stores because even thieves know those customers haven't any money to steal.

    --
    Cranky educator.
  12. Well, then. by roc97007 · · Score: 2

    > [...] that malware was used in attacks that compromised the company's point of sale registers.

    See?? There is still a market for Windows 98 programmers!

    --
    Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
  13. PCI DSS? by EMG+at+MU · · Score: 1

    PCI-DSS was created to hold merchants to some kind of security standards. There are huge fines if your payment processing system isn't compliant.

    Details aren't really that clear, but do we know if Target was in violation of the requirements? Or is this a case of PCI-DSS compliance not guaranteeing security? From what I remember of PCI-DSS, it was a good start but not comprehensive. It seemed more focused on preventing someone from swapping out a legitimate credit card processing device with a compromised one, preventing snooping on the local network, and avoiding having normal unsecured POS devices do credit processing. This attack was at Target's corporate processing core it seems so I don't even know if PCI-DSS applies.

    1. Re:PCI DSS? by operagost · · Score: 1

      I assure you that PCI DSS is quite comprehensive. Any system in a LAN that touches cardholder data is normally in scope. Any system that stores cardholder data is especially restricted and monitored.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
  14. They were not in PCI-DSS compliance. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Card Readers they used should have been encrypted making all sensitive data only decipherable to the processor. There would have been no data "in the clear" even if they were RAM Scraping.

    1. Re:They were not in PCI-DSS compliance. by MobyDisk · · Score: 2

      The Card Readers they used should have been encrypted making all sensitive data only decipherable to the processor.

      It sounds like it was encrypted, and the malware was on the processor.

      There would have been no data "in the clear" even if they were RAM Scraping.

      The article claimed it had to be decrypted in memory in order to process it. I think this is a fundamental limitation of the credit system.

    2. Re:They were not in PCI-DSS compliance. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      See this: Computing Arbitrary Functions of Encrypted Data

      http://crypto.stanford.edu/craig/easy-fhe.pdf

    3. Re:They were not in PCI-DSS compliance. by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

      That's cutting edge theoretical computer science, not something you find in a POS machine.

    4. Re:They were not in PCI-DSS compliance. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The transaction doesn't have to be decrypted until it reaches the processor. That doesn't happen at the store level. This happens to POS systems when they don't know what they are doing or Target was trying to purposefully store the data. If you grab an encrypted USB card reader and have it output to a text file it is already encrypted. It doesn't have to be processed in any way.

  15. Re: 3rd world countries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The US of A I expect

  16. Re: 3rd world countries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    haha! That never happens... if it does then it's done by individuals or groups you immigrated here from 3rd world countries.

  17. Yes. Inside job without a doubt. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    I worked on POS systems back in the late 90s - so, keep in mind my knowledge is not recent - no really, retailers move at a snails pace when it comes to technology.

    First, this was an inside job. POS systems are too stupid to connect to the Internet.

    Second, back in my day, the register was a very dumb PC (DOS with an extender and later moved to Windows - yeah, I know). Network security NEVER entered the picture because it is a closed system: POS->Store server->Local/Main office over leased lines or VPN on the internet. The servers were slow shit. All they need to do is record sales data.

    In other words, IF the POS servers were in fact connected to the Internet so that crackers could get it, then someone really really really screwed up because there was absolutely no reasons to do so. Too slow.

    And if these servers WERE connected to the Internet, all the crackers would see is unencrypted transaction data: CC #s, exp dates, amounts, what was bought, names, and all the other data collected by the POS computer. Yeah, wide open - because it was thought that no one outside the store would ever see it.

    Retailing, in general, is a VERY competitive business with razor thin margins. Go to your finance website of choice and compare Walmart's,Target's,Sear's or whoever's operating margins with any other industry's company - Pharma is my favoriate comparison: try Bristol Meyers Sqibb (BMY). So, they take THE cheapest way out every time.

    1. Re:Yes. Inside job without a doubt. by mythosaz · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's much, much more likely that hackers penetrated the network by other means, and then, once inside the network, compromised the POS systems -- which could then report back to the intermediary system, which could report out (or be repeatedly accessed from outside).

      It's unlikely that the POS systems themselves reached out to the internet. That would have been noticed far, far too easily.

    2. Re:Yes. Inside job without a doubt. by RabidReindeer · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It's much, much more likely that hackers penetrated the network by other means, and then, once inside the network, compromised the POS systems -- which could then report back to the intermediary system, which could report out (or be repeatedly accessed from outside).

      It's unlikely that the POS systems themselves reached out to the internet. That would have been noticed far, far too easily.

      I'm not so sure. I happen to know of a certain well-known vendor of POS systems that is A) sloppy about a lot of things. B) pushing more and more of people's business onto their servers in their cloud. If their customer is also getting Lower Prices Everyday on their IT, so much the easier.

      And I do suspect the Cloud. Because infecting store-local systems in enough physical locations to capture 70 million or more accounts would be very labor-intensive. It's far easier to infect the Mothership and let it corrupt the local systems.

    3. Re:Yes. Inside job without a doubt. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      That's how it used to be.
      These days, they usually have the same type of in-house network, often the POS terminals are just repackaged PC gear in a custom shell/case. Sometimes they run them as terminals, sometimes are a locked-down client with a custom OS. These do not, as you mention, have any internet access.
      But the main server will have some kind of connection, in order to upload transaction data and do inventory synchs with Warehousing. And it's cheaper to do that over the internet via VPN tunnel than it is to buy up actual point to point circuits. And well hell, let's offer free Wi-Fi as well! and even though generally those networks are kept segregated, it means there are a lot more scenarios for exploits to happen. So if you can get some malware to push out to the store servers, you very easily might not need to infect the client workstations at all. And in turn, you might find a way to ride into the network from the clients.

    4. Re:Yes. Inside job without a doubt. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First, this was an inside job. POS systems are too stupid to connect to the Internet.

      From Visa's bulletin on the malware:

      Ensure any automatic updates from third-parties are validated. This means performing a checksum on the updates
      prior to deploying on the POS systems. Merchants should work with their POS vendors to obtain signatures/hash
      values in order to perform this checksum validation.

      Network Security
      Review your firewall configuration and ensure only allowed ports, services and IP addresses are communicating with
      your network. This is especially critical on outbound (e.g., egress) firewall rules, where compromised entities allow
      ports to communicate to any IP on the Internet. Hackers will leverage this misconfiguration to exfiltrate data to their IP
      address.
      Segregate the payment processing network from other non-payment processing networks.
      Apply access controls lists (ACLs) on the router configuration to limit unauthorized traffic to the payment processing
      networks.
      Create strict ACLs segmenting public facing systems and backend database systems that house payment card data.
      Review systems that have direct connectivity or access to the payment processing environment and ensure systems
      are secure

      Sure sounds like Visa thinks POS systems will be on the network. And that they'll get automatic updates.

      Automatic updates are really the only way this thing makes any sense at all.

    5. Re:Yes. Inside job without a doubt. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All of this points to the POS terminal itself being compromised. Full track data from the credit card was compromised. Full track data is not allowed to be stored or transmitted. This points to something in the POS terminal - which are produced not by Target or any of the other retailer.

      Consider the magnitude of the breach. At least two and likely more major retailers. The commonality is the POS terminals. If the firmware of the POS could be compromised at the manufacturer - or possibly a peripheral device driver (USB serial and/or USB Net) - could be compromised that would do it. That is easier than breaching multiple networks all the way to the POS terminal to do this. Likely this was sitting quiescent for a goodly period of time waiting for the holiday shopping period when they simply weren't going to shut down taking credit cards even with knowledge of a breach.

      Sounds like this is very likely a much much larger issue than is being publicized. And it's only after the holiday shopping season that the information is really coming out. Personally, I'd say a few 10s of $Millions of fraud loss would have been acceptable over the $ Billions of holiday spending that could have been at risk.

      I personally wouldn't trust any POS credit card terminal about now.

    6. Re:Yes. Inside job without a doubt. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I say that a compromised POS terminal could have reached out to the internet. ICMP comes to mind as an innocuous protocol. Just make the packets big enough to contain the full track credit card data. About everyone allows ICMP type 8. (That is ping, by the way).

    7. Re:Yes. Inside job without a doubt. by mjwx · · Score: 2

      I worked on POS systems back in the late 90s - so, keep in mind my knowledge is not recent - no really, retailers move at a snails pace when it comes to technology.

      First, this was an inside job. POS systems are too stupid to connect to the Internet.

      I think your info's a little out of date. Most stores run embedded Windows XP on their Point Of Sale equipment (Althouth the other meaning of POS is perfectly suitable here). It's trivial to connect them to the internet. But all you really have to do is connect them to a network (which you have to for EFT to work, let alone connecting back to the mainframe that runs the POS back end) which then makes them vulnerable to a worm from a single infected computer. Not that I disagree that this is an inside job, it's still the most likely explanation even if the staff member was working for someone else.

      Also, because banks charge per EFTPOS terminal, a lot of stores will have all electronic transactions done by a single computer in store and all other terminals will be slaved to that computer, when you pay $30 per EFTPOS terminal per month, with 15 checkouts that adds up to a bit ($5400 per year) and as you said, retail operates on razor thin margins.

      Working on point of sale systems in 2010's has scared me out of using my card in store. Cash is safer as ATM's are much harder to break into.
       

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    8. Re:Yes. Inside job without a doubt. by BVis · · Score: 1

      Full track data is not allowed to be stored or transmitted.

      It might not be allowed, but it happens. All the time. Lazy programmers and/or retarded business systems that require all this data for no good reason other than that's how they've always done it lead to all kinds of shit being stored, including CVV data which is a HUGE no-no. I've seen this with my own eyes.

      --
      Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
  18. Quick fix for the POS POS machines ... by bizitch · · Score: 1

    Assuming these POS POS machines suck when it comes to security ... why not

    - Install them on their own VLAN in stores
    - Deny the VLAN internet access

    Simple n'est–ce pas?

    --
    ---- "Logoff! That cookie shit makes me nervous!" - A. Soprano
    1. Re:Quick fix for the POS POS machines ... by paulzeye · · Score: 2

      Needs to be a little more complex. Any easy way around your measure would be to have a compromised jump box somewhere else on Target's network. POS machines send data to jump box, jump box uploads it to internet. Access to the POS VLAN needs to be tightly controlled- but then you need to pull logs of some of them, put patches and updates on them, authenticate users, after a while your VLAN has lots of holes in it.

    2. Re:Quick fix for the POS POS machines ... by m6ack · · Score: 1

      ... why not

      - Install them on their own VLAN in stores - Deny the VLAN internet access

      An insider (private "security" or janitor) could yet attach an infection device to the private network (which is a likely infection vector in any case). The only "simple" solution leveraging XP that I can envision is one where each and every POS is physically isolated from the network via a very locked down BSD or Linux machine (Pi's?).

    3. Re:Quick fix for the POS POS machines ... by citizenr · · Score: 1

      you forgot:

      3:???
      4:profit

      where 3 is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VLAN_hopping

      --
      Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck.
    4. Re:Quick fix for the POS POS machines ... by bizitch · · Score: 1

      True -

      I understand there would be more to lock down - but it doesn't sound like they had isolated the POS at all

      --
      ---- "Logoff! That cookie shit makes me nervous!" - A. Soprano
  19. Surely they mean "*outgoing* CEO"...? by jeffb+(2.718) · · Score: 2

    I must be having some rendering issue in my browser. No matter how many articles I read mentioning "Target Chairman and CEO Gregg Steinhafel", I can never make out the word "outgoing" in front of the title. Not even "embattled". It must be a browser problem. I can imagine some weird bug that would cause such words to be rendered as hidden text; I can't imagine a world where a CEO would emerge unscathed from a screw-up of this magnitude. Right?

    1. Re:Surely they mean "*outgoing* CEO"...? by i.r.id10t · · Score: 1

      Well, the blink tag has be deprecated for a while...

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
    2. Re:Surely they mean "*outgoing* CEO"...? by game+kid · · Score: 1

      Don't worry, Steinhafel is already making speeches about his victimization and firing scapegoa^W^W^W^W^W^W^W^WShowing Leadership and Getting To The Bottom Of This.

      You know, like that Christie guy.

      --
      You can hold down the "B" button for continuous firing.
    3. Re:Surely they mean "*outgoing* CEO"...? by omnichad · · Score: 1

      CEO doesn't work in IT. No reason to believe he was presented with enough details to even take the blame. Besides, this security failure attacks what was once standard practice. Attacks are getting more sophisticated.

      Firing everyone who is even remotely involved is just going to delay the company's recovery.

  20. Got email from Target offering free credit monitor by m00sh · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I got an e-mail from Target offering me free credit monitoring.

    Yeah, they leaked my name, address, credit card number etc and now they want me to sign up for credit monitoring with them. Just input your social security number and answer a few questions ...

    We have been hearing about how Target figures out if you're pregnant before your family does. They have been doing all sorts of data mining on people.

    I suspect what is leaked is just not the name, address and credit card info on their subscribers. What if they have a profile on each of their customers that is also leaked? What if they compiled all sorts of data about their customers from various sources, like relationships, employment field, estimated incomes and other bits of info from the credit history? What if all that was leaked?

  21. Re:NSA-level shit by jeffmeden · · Score: 2

    These Russian hackers know their shit.. almost as good as the NSA.

    There's a good case to be made for the NSA to go after them at this point.

    Who's against the NSA now??

    Ah, er, if it were actually the NSA that engaged in protecting against/pursuing/prosecuting these types of things, then yes not as many people would be "Against" them. Alas, they don't (and make no promises to) do anything of the sort. Continuing to snoop on unsuspecting people around the world? That IS in their wheelhouse.

  22. Why not thin clients using PCoIP or RDP? by kriston · · Score: 2

    Why are they not using thin clients like VMware, Citrix, with PCoIP? I recently visited a Bob's furniture store and all their POS terminals were thin clients using either RDP, Citrix, or bus virtualization protocols like PCoIP. Same with the terminals at all the centers at another firm.

    With the current generation thin clients, particularly the nifty PCoIP ones, local performance is very attainable even though it isn't really needed for POS terminals. VMware has offered PCoIP since 2008 and Amazon has just released their implementation.

    I think Target deserves what they got for having POS terminals that are allowed to be locally modified in any way.

    --

    Kriston

    1. Re:Why not thin clients using PCoIP or RDP? by Charliemopps · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I'm curious, if you find security so important, why the hell do you have a link in your sig that directs people to pictures of your entire family? As much as I'm sure we're all thrilled to see your daughters piano recital I can't imagine I'd ever put pics of my kids on the net like that. I guess that's up to you but the slashdot crowd is not who I'd want having every intimate detail of my home life. I'm pretty sure your link would let me steal your identity a lot quicker than any data they got from target.

    2. Re:Why not thin clients using PCoIP or RDP? by kriston · · Score: 1

      It just goes to show you how much you think you know about security, which is quite a tiny bit.

      --

      Kriston

    3. Re:Why not thin clients using PCoIP or RDP? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I found your troll verbose. When trolling someone posting family pictures, just type "your kids are HAWT" and post.

  23. Re:NSA-level shit by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

    Who's against the NSA now??

    ME

  24. POS by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 3, Insightful

    They were quite psychic when selecting this particular acronym.

  25. use bitcoin by h00manist · · Score: 1

    they should have used bitcoin in the stores.

    --
    Build your own energy sources from scratch. http://otherpower.com/
    1. Re:use bitcoin by DickBreath · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Maybe instead, there is something Target should NOT have used in their store POS systems.

      http://www.microsoft.com/casestudies/Case_Study_Detail.aspx?CaseStudyID=4000009407

      --

      I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
    2. Re:use bitcoin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      They're trying to pull it. Here's the text:-

      4-page Case Study
      Posted: 3/17/2011
      Rate This Evidence:
      [Click on the stars to rate this case study] [Click on the stars to rate this case study] [Click on the stars to rate this case study] [Click on the stars to rate this case study] [Click on the stars to rate this case study]
      Target Corporation Large Retailer Relies on a Virtual Solution to Deliver Optimal Shopping Experience

      With its attractive stores offering trendy merchandise at affordable prices, Target changed how consumers think about discount shopping. To help Target deliver on its “Expect More. Pay Less.” brand promise, Target chooses reliable, scalable, and cost-effective technology. That’s why the company is deploying Windows Server 2008 Datacenter and its Hyper-V virtualization technology to retire 8,650 servers and implement a two-servers-per-store policy. By 2012, Target’s entire store server infrastructure will be running on Hyper-V, which will support a total of 15,000 virtual machines running mission-critical applications. Target also deployed Microsoft System Center data center solutions to manage more than 300,000 endpoints across its retail network. With its Microsoft Virtualization solution, the company will save millions of dollars in hardware, electrical, and maintenance costs.
      Situation
      The first Target store opened in 1962 in the Minneapolis suburb of Roseville, Minnesota, with a focus on convenient shopping at competitive discount prices. Today, Target remains committed to providing guests with the right merchandise mix—from everyday commodities and grocery offerings to trend-right home and apparel lines—at outstanding value. Target continually reinvents its stores, including layout, presentation, and merchandise assortment, to create an engaging shopping experience.

      *
      * It’s not hyperbole to suggest that most of our guest shopping experiences are affected by our Microsoft Virtualization solution. That’s a good thing for Target, and it’s a good thing for our guests. *

      Brad Thompson
      Director, Infrastructure Engineering, Target
      *
      To continue offering merchandise at appealing prices, Target looks for ways to control its operating costs. Consequently, the company’s IT department, called Target Technology Services, chooses technology that’s cost-effective and delivers real business value. “Target Technology Services is considered a strategic enabler for just about everything we do in retail strategy,” says Brad Thompson, Director of Infrastructure Engineering at Target. “That said, we are still a cost center, and so we are always looking to drive down costs where possible, as long as we meet the requirements of our guests, our application development teams, and our business partners.“

      Amy Reilly, Spokesperson for Target, points out that technology also underlies the customer experience at each Target store: “When our guests come into our stores, they have a certain expectation of their experience. They expect clean, wide aisles and to find what they need and check out quickly because they lead busy lives. So reliability in our technology, including our POS [point-of-sale] and replenishment applications, is very important to helping us deliver on our ‘Expect More. Pay Less.’ brand promise.”
      Distributed IT Infrastructure
      Target has a highly distributed IT infrastructure with more than 300,000 endpoints, including servers, computers, POS registers, kiosks, and mobile devices dispersed among its 1,755 retail stores. Except for centralized authentication, domain name resolution, and endpoint monitoring services, each retail store functions as an autonomous unit. “Every one of our stores has its own control room, with its own network and compute capacity inside the store,” says Thompson. “So if you think of our infrastructure across all those stores, we have to get very crea

  26. it gets worse. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    First, target has NOT wiped and re-installed. As such, there are Trojans waiting to come alive and look for other malware to install.
    but it gets better. Everybody is missing the fact that all of the companies having this malware offshore their IT. What is happening is that Indians are paid $8-10k, and are then offered 100-200k to release the malware. Of course they do it. They are set up for life and do not hurt their peers.

    this will continue as long as American companies are dumb enough to offshore.

  27. girlintraining? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Where is girlintraining when you need her? I came here after her previous commentary on having worked at Target, to see if any of this matches her experience. I wanted an insider's take. Uh, oh. Was she "disappeared" after commenting?

    1. Re:girlintraining? by DocSavage64109 · · Score: 1

      It's pretty obvious that the NSA disappeared her.

  28. Re:Got email from Target offering free credit moni by Rob+the+Bold · · Score: 2

    I got an e-mail from Target offering me free credit monitoring.

    Yeah, they leaked my name, address, credit card number etc and now they want me to sign up for credit monitoring with them. Just input your social security number and answer a few questions ...

    Surely, they aren't offering to sign you up with their roll-your-own credit-monitoring system, right? (Because I wouldn't go for that either.) Last time I had a credit card possibly compromised, the retailer at fault gave me a free one year subscription to Equifax's credit monitoring service. I got a coupon code from the retailer, but all the interaction was with the credit bureau.

    (For the sake of closure on that anecdote, nothing weird happened over the following year.)

    --
    I am not a crackpot.
  29. Target Hasn't Confirmed Shit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is the third, of what is likely to be dozens, of incestuously self referencing blog posts and "news" articles all reverberating the same assumptions, supposition, and lack of factual detail.

    They got the credit card data from the point of sale(PoS), where the data is entered. Duh, we knew that. It was malware. We pretty much knew that too, it sorta goes without saying. But, they still haven't actually said what the malware was or did exactly. Though fluffy the reports do pontificate cluelessly about "RAM scrapers" which Visa already warned about. Except that Visa's warnings were for Windows systems and Target uses Linux PoS systems. So, again, we don't really know shit.

    So, despite this article's claims of confirmation, here's what we still don't know:

    1. How the malware got in or was installed.
    2. When the breach first occurred.
    3. The specific nature of the malware and which specific system it targeted.
    4. The full extent of what was taken.
    5. Who did it.

    What else have I missed?

  30. Re:NSA-level shit by RabidReindeer · · Score: 1

    These Russian hackers know their shit.. almost as good as the NSA.

    There's a good case to be made for the NSA to go after them at this point.

    Who's against the NSA now??

    Ah, er, if it were actually the NSA that engaged in protecting against/pursuing/prosecuting these types of things, then yes not as many people would be "Against" them. Alas, they don't (and make no promises to) do anything of the sort. Continuing to snoop on unsuspecting people around the world? That IS in their wheelhouse.

    I certainly hope they're snooping on unsuspecting people. Otherwise they're not likely to get much useful data.

    Say, rather, that they're snooping on far more people than they can reasonably justift as suspects. And on people who are supposed to be completely beyond their jurisdiction.

  31. Re:Got email from Target offering free credit moni by m00sh · · Score: 2

    Surely, they aren't offering to sign you up with their roll-your-own credit-monitoring system, right? (Because I wouldn't go for that either.) Last time I had a credit card possibly compromised, the retailer at fault gave me a free one year subscription to Equifax's credit monitoring service. I got a coupon code from the retailer, but all the interaction was with the credit bureau.

    (For the sake of closure on that anecdote, nothing weird happened over the following year.)

    Yes, it is through Equifax they say.

    The website is here. https://creditmonitoring.target.com/

  32. Re:Target Confirms Point-of-Sale Malware Was Used by omnichad · · Score: 1

    Only shop at $0.99 stores

    What do you eat? Canned tuna and generic oreos?

  33. uh, don't use Windows based POS systems? by swschrad · · Score: 2

    all the bad boys know the ins and outs of Windows APIs. read the Visa alert, it's only Windows registers that get fooled and compromised.

    this is one of those things where using commodity software in any stripe is probably not advised. like, for instance, cars. airplanes. hope to God not nuclear reactors.

    embedded Windows is a freakin' end of civilization waiting for the right malware...

    --
    if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
    1. Re:uh, don't use Windows based POS systems? by cheater512 · · Score: 1

      Well technically the Linux APIs are even more well known. You even get the source code for them!

      The difference is the difficulty to get the malware on, and for the malware to access the sensitive parts.
      Linux actually has restrictions in place which are extremely difficult to get past while Windows leaves everything open.

  34. PCI Is Cheap And STUPID! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    Getting PCI compliance certification is not cheap, and you need it if you want integrated payment. So far, not a lot of open source POS systems are lining up to pay for certification...

    False! It's dirt cheap, just a couple hundred dollars. You filled out an application, paid a fee, and got an enhanced port scan. How exactly does your shiny new(annually renewed) PCI DSS compliance accreditation protect ANYTHING? PCI compliance testing does nothing beyond proving that you at least installed a consumer grade router/firewall between your card reader, card data storage, and the internet. Litterally nothing between your card data and the internet beyond a 10 year old $50 Linksys router.

    But, God forbid your SMTP server utilize weak cyphers, cause that'll fail you right there! Does it matter that no-fucking-body is using TLS to exchange SMTP email? Nope! But, if you get your SMTP TLS fixed, your Linksys firewall will be fully PCI DSS compliant! Give me a fucking break.

    But, here's the kicker, IT WILL NEVER BE FIXED. If PCI demanded and enforced real security, it would be FAR to prohibitively expensive for most retailers, especially small shops, to be able to satisfy the requirements. This would cut into the card industries profits. So, they will always make gestures like PCI DSS, but they will never be strong enough to be effective because that would damage Visa's profits.

    Remember, boys and girls, this entire debacle costs Visa NOTHING! False charges are olled back and the merchant eats the cost of the fraudulent charges. Your credit card number gets stolen and is used fraudulently to buy lunch at some small restaurant? The restaurant gets the chargeback and eats the loss. Your card number gets used to buy some eBay stuff, same thing happens to the sap that was trying to make a buck on eBay. They lose their goods and their money.

    1. Re:PCI Is Cheap And STUPID! by houstonbofh · · Score: 4, Insightful

      False! It's dirt cheap, just a couple hundred dollars. You filled out an application, paid a fee, and got an enhanced port scan.

      That is PCI compliance for a network, not an application. If you have an application that allows credit card swipes, and goes to a clearing house, it needs to be certified as well, and that ain't cheap.

      How exactly does your shiny new(annually renewed) PCI DSS compliance accreditation protect ANYTHING? PCI compliance testing does nothing beyond proving that you at least installed a consumer grade router/firewall between your card reader, card data storage, and the internet.

      It also shows that you exercised due diligence in securing your network, and prevents you from being sued for gross negligence. You don't need real security if you can show that you had some and therefore can't be sued.

  35. Re:NSA-level shit by NatasRevol · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    They have no idea who to target, so they literally target the whole world.

    If the NSA was any good, they would have seen this attack coming.

    The utter failure speaks of their competence.

    --
    There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
  36. heh, all oursourced at the stores by swschrad · · Score: 3, Informative

    the link is interesting reading. click it.

    --
    if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
    1. Re:heh, all oursourced at the stores by Nyder · · Score: 1

      This one too. http://www.meatspin.com/

      That link made me dizzy.

      --
      Be seeing you...
  37. Idiots by Sable+Drakon · · Score: 1

    This is yet another reason why nobody should be using Windows for their point of sale systems.

    --
    The Amarri pray for god, the Caldari pray for profit. the Gallente pray for peace, but the Minmatar pray their ships hol
  38. Re:NSA-level shit by Dishevel · · Score: 1

    Who's against the NSA now??

    Me.

    --
    Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
  39. Re:NSA-level shit by Old97 · · Score: 2

    The NSA is an intelligence gathering agency; they are not law enforcement. They have no jurisdictional boundaries to their operations. As a U.S. government agency they are supposed to have to observe some niceties insofar as operating in the U.S. and targeting U.S. citizens what with the Constitution and all. Their failure to always do that is where they've gone wrong. And, as you've indicated, they've probably collected so much information that its getting in the way of useful intelligence analysis. Too much can be worse than not enough. The other fun fact is that they and their allied agencies in other countries seemed to get around some restrictions by letting the "foreigners" do the spying on the domestics for them and then exchanging what they collected.

    --
    Very often, people confuse simple with simplistic. The nuance is lost on most. - Clement Mok
  40. Re: Target Confirms Point-of-Sale Malware Was Used by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Food is different. Virtually nobody buys food with cash. They use credit, debit, food stamps, or check.

  41. Re:NSA-level shit by Aaden42 · · Score: 1

    Actually, given how much work the NSA put into SELinux, and the fact that had Target run their POS systems on Linux with full SELinux lock down instead of on wide-open Windows, it’s unlikely an attack like this would have been possible.

    Sounds like the NSA could have been our saviors here. Shame Target had to go and foul up NSA’s big chance.

    Or something . . .

  42. Why the hell not, indeed. by pcwhalen · · Score: 1

    Under various state laws, companies that hold personal private information have a responsibility to notify people when that information is no longer in their control.

    Some are statutory periods of time, like 60 days. Others are more nebulous. ("As soon as possible reasonably practicable.")

    The longer they wait to report, the more liable to make themselves under the laws.

    --
    Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain with all your metadata.
  43. Maybe DOOM was not from swiping POS by pcwhalen · · Score: 2

    70 million names, addresses, emails, and other personal information data sets we're also stolen.

    I'm not sure, but I don't think black boxes at credit card terminals would have solved that problem.

    I think Target was data mining, and their database got hacked.

    --
    Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain with all your metadata.
  44. Re:NSA-level shit by dave562 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This is where the "fusion centers" are supposed to come into play. The NSA is not law enforcement, but the FBI is (was) and so are other Federal and State agencies. As others have pointed out, the NSA should have seen this. They have taps in all of the backbone routers. Surely they have a decent algorithm that highlights data going to (Eastern Europe, China, etc). We know that they are analyzing plain text and decrypting SSL/TLS when plain text is not available.

    They should absolutely have a map of legitimate financial networks, payment authorization data flows, etc. Anything outside of that known universe should be flagged and investigated. They are already doing this to combat money laundering, and to enforce the economic sanctions that the State Department and other Federal agencies enact.

    The reality is that the NSA is not all about protecting our economy or predicting crime. They are there to uncover and crush any opposition to the government. Sure, they "cannot" catch these massive frauds, or pay attention to intelligence about terrorists planning on blowing up marathons. But trust you me, as soon as any of us start talking about armed insurrection or forcefully removing Senators, we will quickly figure out that the NSA has no problem acting upon what they want to act upon.

  45. Re:NSA-level shit by Streetlight · · Score: 1

    Exactly. The other day, IIRC, in a routine traffic stop some guy in the midwest USA was found to have 40 bombs, enough "stuff" to make more bombs, two long guns and two pistols. I don't think the NSA let the cops know about this guy. I haven't heard any more about this but one wonders where this guy was going and what was to be done with what he had in his vehicle. Probably not for some fireworks demonstration.

    --
    In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell
  46. And how did this pass PCI-DSS & PA-DSS? by ducomputergeek · · Score: 1

    Seriously. At my last company we wrote point of sale software just as PA-DSS certification was coming into play and we got our software PA-DSS certified. One of the things the QSA is supposed to test is that things like the PIN are stored encrypted in RAM. Eventually we encouraged all our customers to use the Ingentico PIN pads which they customer used and should contain encryption from the processor and run the transaction without our software ever seeing any card data. Just a transaction id and amount...

    I remember this because this situation expressly came up in a project meeting when one of the young programmers questioned why it had to be encrypted in RAM. I then showed him a program that could dump and even search the contents of RAM. He wasn't aware that such a thing existed. Although I was rather shocked at how little about operating systems and hardware young CS graduates knew these days. Of course I cam from the systems admin side...so...

    --
    "The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
  47. DSG / PCWorld -uk by zacherynuk · · Score: 1

    When I asked in PCWorld around 30 months ago why they weren't using the chip and pin on their tills, the cashier told me it was because it had been compromised - at source - and had been swiping customer details. At that time I had to sign for my purchase (Which is the UK is very unusual over the past 10 years or so)

    I never did find any evidence or news article for what he said, but their tills now still use a separate card payment system from a UK bank rather than the one adjoined to their EPOS system.

  48. Re:NSA-level shit by RabidReindeer · · Score: 2

    The NSA is an intelligence gathering agency; they are not law enforcement. They have no jurisdictional boundaries to their operations. As a U.S. government agency they are supposed to have to observe some niceties insofar as operating in the U.S. and targeting U.S. citizens what with the Constitution and all. Their failure to always do that is where they've gone wrong. And, as you've indicated, they've probably collected so much information that its getting in the way of useful intelligence analysis. Too much can be worse than not enough. The other fun fact is that they and their allied agencies in other countries seemed to get around some restrictions by letting the "foreigners" do the spying on the domestics for them and then exchanging what they collected.

    Some of us don't consider the 4th Amendment to be a "nicety". That's what warrants are for.

  49. Judgment vs. Experience...Re:Cheap architecture + by Fubari · · Score: 1
    An old poster of computer quotes (lost many office moves ago) phrased it like this:

    Judgement comes from experience.
    Experience comes from poor judgment.
    --Robert E. Lee

  50. Re:NSA-level shit by Old97 · · Score: 0

    Whooooosh!

    --
    Very often, people confuse simple with simplistic. The nuance is lost on most. - Clement Mok
  51. Our opinions don't matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    While there definitely some things that Target did wrong that opened themselves up, and lots of posters have suggested mitigation ideas, none if it matters to Target. They are not going out of business because of this, and their sales haven't dropped year-over-year. Aside from some minor collateral expense and PR, this sort of breach is no big deal for them. There's little reason for them to improve security besides benefitting from the good press that will surely come their way when they do so.

  52. what do you mean, "unsuspecting" people? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ah, but you couldn't realistically say that the people are unsuspecting now, after all these revelations, can you?
    You must mean: "continuing to violate one or more amendments in the constitution it has sworn to uphold..."

  53. Related by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Dominos Pizza has been storing employee and customer data in plain text for years. I even put up a fuss about it. Their reply was "it was designed this way".

  54. you have to let it in first by samantha · · Score: 1

    There has to be some exploit allowing the malware into the POS device before it can read anything from memory. But I am sure some pointy-haired genius will soon call add a "Sprint" to encrypt everything even in computer memory and registers.

  55. Linux, Linix everywhere by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just because its running linux, doesnt mean its safe... Commonsense "should" prevail, but saving money & profits trump common sense.

  56. Re:Got email from Target offering free credit moni by 14erCleaner · · Score: 1

    VISA just sent us new cards and cancelled our old ones. They didn't specify exactly why, but I shop at Target.

    That email "from Target" might be a phish. Careful...

    --
    Have you read my blog lately?
  57. That's why PHBs demand 2-year-old $100 routers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Clearly they're "five times newer" and "twice as good".

  58. Target POS ran Linux by HalAtWork · · Score: 1

    The Target POS machines were running Linux

  59. Spy Vs Spy On US Turf by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Looks like NSA went on a 'Boy Scout' mission proof-of-concept.

    Since the Administration of Harry S. Truman and up to the Obama Junta the "Spy" Agencies of the USA, CIA and NSA, have been locked in a come-what-may kill-all struggle for spying supremacy.

    It's 'Natural.' CIA = Human Tech and 'Penatration' whereas NSA = Electronic Tech and 'Infiltration.'

    Now a new player arrives in the 'mix.' "Infiltration Penetration" or 'IP' is NSA's new game on the board.

    Target, low-brough' retailer whose 'clientele' and head-deep in debt -- no excess cash at all, All debt and drowning in it.

    Neman Marcus, 'high-brough' retailer whose 'clientele' are head and shoulders above the 'grunge' and have loads of excess cash to party with. Ah -- loads of excess cash to unload from them! Good!

    A certain situation dear to the President portends high: Obamacare is in need of cash to survive!

    'White Knight' NSA to the rescue!

    NSA will present Obama with a hoard of cash from the Neman Marcus exploit to save Obamacare's ass!

    Obama will kiss the Director of the National Security Agency.

    In Obama's stoner mind, "National Security" = "Social Security." "Social Security" need money! "National Security" has money. A Deal Made In Heaven.

    Obama will offer a marijuana bong and a cocaine enema to Alexander, and Alexander will do a "Gerald Ford" in asking, "what is these?"

    Ha ha }:-)

  60. Confirmed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes, Target uses Verifone POS terminals running Linux

  61. Not quite by webheaded · · Score: 1

    What he's describing is something that works with their POS without allowing the computer to actually process the transaction or see card data. We have that product at my company as well. I don't do that stuff anymore, but I did help with that project originally and it was a cool idea. ECRi was where the thing plugging into the register is the entire credit card machine and it simply passes back an approval to the POS without any actual card data making it there. It's a hell of a lot more secure than using a PIN pad.

    If you think about it, there's basically no reason at all they need to process the actual card with their computers. The POS exists to ring up totals and keep track of things. It does not need to take any part in the actual authorization of the card...that's how shit like THIS happens.

    --
    "Those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - BenF
    1. Re:Not quite by omnichad · · Score: 1

      You're right - they don't need to use the POS for that. But when rolling their own pin pads, they are being lazy and just making it a dumb terminal instead of a black box - because they're not really hardware people. They're most likely embedded Windows people.

  62. Game? by antdude · · Score: 1

    I 3 id Software's DOOM! [grin]

    --
    Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
  63. POS by Bugamn · · Score: 1

    What to expect of something that was called Piece Of Shit?

  64. You can put the trojan on the little stripe by pebear · · Score: 1

    The thieves are making up credit and debit cards with the Trojan that activate when their fake cards are being swiped at the POS. I wouldn't be surprised if all the stores have not been compromised. That is why I did all my shopping from home. Not that, is any more secure but from this exploit I'm sure it is. The problem with credit cards here in the US is that you don't know if the scanner has been compromised, if the PC/POS system has been compromised or if you are at a restaurant and you hand the wait staff the card you don't know what they are doing with your card in the back room. I say use cash, on payday you take out 2 or 3 hundred dollars to shop with and use that.

    --
    Paul E. Bahre
  65. If the POS System Is Cracked .. by Toad-san · · Score: 1

    and if the PINs are not stored at Target (as they insist) but are decrypted and processed at the credit card hardware at the POS ..

    Does this mean the malware on the POS systems and ATMs are monitoring and reporting the PIN decryption and processing? Now isn't THAT precious!

    It also means that Target's encouraging words, "Oh, we never see or store the decrypted PINs, so they couldn't have been stolen from US!" isn't saying the PINs weren't stolen.

    Can anyone explain this so a simple mind can grasp the extent of the threat? Or shall I just go back to pure cash transactions, and credit cards, debit cards, online shopping and transactions be damned?