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Fighting the Flu May Hurt Those Around You
sciencehabit writes "When you've got the flu, it can't hurt to take an aspirin or an ibuprofen to control the fever and make you feel better, right? Wrong, some scientists say. Lowering your body temperature may make the virus replicate faster and increase the risk that you transmit it to others. A new study claims that there are at least 700 extra influenza deaths in the United States every year because people suppress their fever."
You're fucked, but I feel better?
Dude, you are so fucked!
read about it in the last few years after one of my kids had an almost 105 fever one week
human pathogens like the 98.6 body temp and a fever is the body's natural way of fighting these pathogens
the flu virus also likes low humidity which is why people buy humidifiers in the winter time
unless my kid has some crazy high fever i try to avoid giving him tylenol or some other fever reducer as long as possible. usually until its almost time for bed
The histamine response has an actual infection-fighting purpose, so even though it also produces inconvenient/unpleasant side effects (runny nose, sneezing, etc.), it seems like it might not always be a good idea to suppress it.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
That's a pretty easy choice to make...no?
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
but its not in the scope of slashdot crowd - so yeah, its probably news
I think most people use fever lowering drugs to be able to get to work. Best way to infect as many people as you can...
No shit sherlock.
Fever is one of your body's ways to fight infection. When you supress it, you "enable the virus."
But I will take antipyretics when I damn well feel like it. Tough shit if someone else gets sick.
DARWIN, BABY!
1331461 is only semiprime *sigh* Alas - I am just short of 1337.
As much as I like the occasional aspirin or paracetamol, when I have a cold or similar, I try to make a concious effort to raise my body temperature as much as possible to aid in the virus fighting efforts of my body. Seems to work well whenever I do it, even if it is uncomfortable at times. I try to use drugs only as a last resort.
On the other hand, if the weather gets hot, I've been known to pop an aspirin purely to lower my body temperature so I can be somewhat useful and cope.
"If anyone needs me, I'm in the angry dome."
Yes, but sometimes it's over responsive. In this case, allergies. The only true long-term healthy solution to allergies is to physically move somewhere else; even if that means another city/state/country.
Life is not for the lazy.
Considering the population of the USA the percentage of the population killed each year by this is 0.00022300095%. On the other hand deaths for the flu have been as low as 3000 yearly so that's 23.3% of deaths. Still, the number of deaths compared to the population makes it comparable to winning the lottery in any case.
Yes, but sometimes it's over responsive. In this case, allergies. The only true long-term healthy solution to allergies is to physically move somewhere else; even if that means another city/state/country.
Or allergy tolerance shots. I get injected every week with a dose of what I am allergic to, in order to slowly build up my allergen tolerance and lower the amount of drugs I need to control my symptoms. It's to the point where I can now have pets!
And think they work.
With infections, I've always taken the approach of doing only as much symptom-relief as absolutely for my sanity/productivity/safety. Things like fever and coughing are part of the body's immune response, and letting them do their work will result in a faster recovery, so I'll put up with the discomfort and inconvenience.
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
Fevers don't kill people. The immune system isn't that self-destructive. The fear of fevers is a holdover from pandemics like polio where diseases associated with high fevers could kill or cause brain damage. The fever wasn't what caused the problems, but people didn't know better.
I think most people (myself included) take the meds for 'aches and pains' and to sleep. The fever gets suppressed as a byproduct of those meds. If there was some way to take meds to keep the fever without aching joints and a screaming headache that would be fine with me.
If you suppress the symptoms, you're probably going to interact with more people and for a longer time while you're contagious than if you had not suppressed the symptoms and felt miserable enough to stay in bed.
Exactly. For example, if you have a cold, the best medicine is Benadryl. Most of the symptoms of the cold are just an over reaction of your bodies imune system and you're basically having an allergic reaction to the virus. All the other over the counter cold medicines don't work very well and usually get you high as a kite. But the Benadryl almost always clears up my symptoms with nothing more than a little drowsiness.
I suppose it is then logical to assume increasing the infection rates of others you contact won't keep you up at night, either.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
Ernest Hemingway
I'm quite sure the larger contributing factor to the flu spreading is people going to work while sick, not a suppressed fever.
Much better approach would be creating a culture in the USA where its OK to stay home when sick.
But of course we can't do that, because SOCIALISM.
That's generally my approach also, but it's possible for the response to be worse than the illness in some cases. For example the response to a cold could develop into bronchitis if you get a lot of post-nasal drip into the lungs, which is probably worse than the cold lingering an extra day or two.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
The only true long-term healthy solution to allergies is to physically move somewhere else; even if that means another city/state/country.
If you cannot train your immune system properly for the environment you live in, yes. However, depending on the source of your allergies, it can be very easy to tame them. If it is a pollen allergy, buy locally grown honey and have a spoonful with breakfast. Some people with dander allergies have them corrected within a week of getting a cat.
For some people, the solution to allergies is to leave the triggers entirely, but for many the allergies are from transitioning between underexposure and overexposure.
It is common knowledge that whenever someone has a fever or flu they wear layers of clothes and/or get under the blankets trying to get some sweat out. We also drink hot milk to help sweating. After a day of rest the person will be able to feel better. Although some may argue that this will will increase the temperature of the brain putting the person in greater risk, a lot of old people still do this because it works. Younger generations now embrace the method of lowering the temperature by butting ice packs. The method was introduced by medical centers here in early 2000. I have tried both methods and one difference is the ice pack method instantly reduces the pain associated with fever/flu. Another thing is I have gone well with the sweating method without taking any medicine but with the ice pack method I had to take some aspirin/paracetamol/ibuprofen.
I read once that you have to get a lot of medicine during one week to kill the virus from your body, or just wait for about seven days. It's the same results!
But nothing sleeping with all of your of blankets to sweat, followed by a nice bath with an everyday hand washing habit and using a surgical mask to work can't help.
People just take a week or 2 fully paid sick leave.
yep, this worked for me. I had bad allergies at a child but they became very mild by the time I was in college.
I brought this up with my physician. Apparently these inconvenient side effects can actually be damaging if you have them long term, while allergens don't cause harm at all (that is the definition of an allergen). Of course, in the case of something that does cause harm, the immune response would be beneficial, but it's hard to tell the difference. In the case of someone with allergies, it's just the fact that in >95% of cases the problem is just allergy and it's beneficial to suppress the reaction.
Nonetheless, you are completely right of course.
I thought they magically prevented you from getting the 'flu? Or maybe they are just a huge cash cow for pharmaceutical companies...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1251562/115m-annual-flu-jab-cost-waste-money.html
"The annual £115million cost of giving flu jabs to the elderly may be a complete waste of money, a major review said yesterday.
The injections fail to prevent deaths or provide the expected health benefits, according to researchers.
They analysed data from 75 studies to determine whether vaccination of older people works."
Here's an idea.. Get sick, stay home! If you wan to medicate at home, knock yourself out. Just don't come to work and avoid going out in public.
Employers should be *actively* looking though their employees and sending home those who are sick. Have a fever? Go home. Don't come back until at least 24 hours w/o a fever. Take your laptop, work from home. Day Care's should have the *same* policy for workers and children, don't come in if you had a fever in the last 24 hours.
I'm serious, this *should* be a matter of law. I know that it won't fix everything, but it sure will slow down a virus if folks would be careful. I live with a person who has a compromised immune system. Getting a virus is a *serious* deal for us and may someday kill them. We have to be extremely careful and I just hate it when I have to deal with people who are obviously ill in public.
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
I got up to 103.1 at which point I figured enough is enough. My mental function was impaired. I brought it back down to 102.5 (with a bath and ibuprofen) where I could think again. But I think letting it get so high helped get rid of it faster instead of my friend (who gave it to me) was constantly medicated and I don't think he ever got above 102.0. He had it for the majority of the week, me, just 3 days.
Sure, letting your fever get up there, but at 103 you get cognitive impairment, 104 you begin to get brain damage, 105 brain damage is happening and 108 is death. So Sure let it get high, but not too high.
Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
Actually, it's not an allergic reaction on the virus. Allergic is a reaction if the target would be harmless to the body. But a virus is not, and the reaction is actually necessary. Suppressing the reaction thus means the virus is not attacked at all, or at least it is attacked with a reduced intensity. So while you might feel better with Benadryl, in fact you are in the same camp like the people who suppress the fever -- being sick longer, being contagious longer, and thus prolonging the flu waves.
I have heard this claim repeatedly and no-one has cited any plausible mechanism of action. Bees collect very little wind-borne pollen, the type to which people are typically allergic. Allergens also vary over time of year; there's no guarantee the honey you are eating was produced by bees at the same time that the allergen was present; in fact, it's somewhat unlikely unless you're eating honey that was produced exactly a year ago.
If you're sick and the doctor hasn't told you to take any medicine then don't take anything! First of all no one should ever take Aspirin or Tylenol, it's a horrible drug, it's destroys your body, second of all, just don't take medicine when you're sick, let your body fight the sickness itself, unless you're told by a medical professional.
Is the fever a side result of the effect of the virus on the organism ? Or is it a way for the organism to fight the virus and eliminate it ? Because we get fevers in most cases of severe infections and I doubt most germs are sensitive to a 3C increase in body temperature... I can still brew beer from anything like 10C to 40C...
Non-Linux Penguins ?
Okay, fighting the flu may spread it. So does taking public transportation and being around people in general. Also whenever I buy gas I increase the demand for it assisting in rising costs for others Same thing when I purchase groceries too, what about those poor families? I should buy less groceries so prices may go down a bit. My gas and electric bills have the same effect. When I heat my house it increases a demand for these utilities which means my neighbors Will potentially have to pay more as well due to increase in demand. If it's not dramatically affecting people, I'm going to do things to help me survive, and other people will be affected, just as they affect me
When I feel "something" coming on I take as hot a bath as I can tolerate for as long as I can tolerate, then quickly dry off, put on sweats and climb under a stack of blankets and sleep (drugs help with the sleep part sometimes).
My feeling is if my body thinks a higher temperature will kill the bad things I'll help as much as I can. The hardest part is finding something hardcopy to read in the tub so i don't risk dropping electronics in the water.
This usually has a positive impact. If not hey, at least I got a hot bath and some sleep.
Things like coughing, runny nose, and sneezing, are also how your viral infection spreads to other people. Even if you are sick slightly longer, not infecting those around you is still a positive outcome.
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Tragedy Of The Commons
I would rather it be you than me. I will take the aspirin.
With an intact cough reflex you can't get post nasal drip in your lungs. The primary reason you get a bronchitis is 1) you didn't have a bronchitis (inflammation of the bronchioles, the larger airways of the lungs, you had a cough because of the drainage 2) the inflammation was viral and the nasty little proteinacous particle managed to scoot past the upper airway defenses or 3) the viral infection compromised the already compromised lining of the bronchioles (smoke, smoke, smoke that cigarette) and allowed a bacterial infection to set up.
So the post nasal drip scenario isn't a good way to look at.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
They get infected because people suppress their fever and go out and act as if nothing happened.
That's like claiming that antivirus kits cause more infections because people get them, feel safe and then go and act as if nothing could happen to them anymore. These things, like medication, is supposed to be an aid, not a substitute.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
That's fine as long as you take care to avoid spreading your germs around. I see a lot of people who cough into their hands and then immediately touch things. If it gets really bad take some time off work and stay in bed, recover faster. I know it is hard in the US due to ridiculous rules on sickness, but it's better for everyone in the long run.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
This article is brought to you by Benadryl, American's number one cold medication!
Seriously though it's not that brilliant, just the best that they trust you with.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Nothing more than a little drowsiness? Benadryl impairs driving performance more than being drunk. Use a 2nd generation antihistamine like fexofenadine or loratidine.
There's little reason to use diphenhydramine for much of anything these days. Want an antihistamine? Use loratidine. Want to fall asleep? Use doxylamine. Want an anti-emetic? Smoke some pot.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
However, neoliberalism requires that you turn up to work because the only metric they care to use is whether your arse is in the chair.
In murrika it's even worse: you aren't allowed sick days off unless you take them as leave, of which you get f-k all.
If someone takes medicine to lower a fever but stays at home until he/she is better then nobody else gets the flu. Yet people who get sick feel compelled to go to work because of work ethics or pressure from employers, and they expose everyone who is on the train/bus with them, or in the line at Starbucks. Surely the message should not be "if you take asprin you're killing people", but "stay home until you're better"!
DEATH is a side effect of some of these products. Why? Because out of a million people, anything can happen.
The virus, unless very specific, will fare MUCH WORSE than you with high temperatures. That high temperature may take YOU out, but it WILL NOT give the vitus any advantage in taking you out.
When sick, if I have a fever I only deal with it if it gets any higher than 101F. That way the fever does what it's supposed to and I avoid delerium and death. This was the advice my Doctor gave for my children and I figure if It's good enough for a toddler it's good enough for me.
You mean your body has evolved a somewhat effective defense against germ replication and stopping that response also stops the defense?
What a concept!
when I was looking at a box of Advil and saw the "fever reducer" line, but it seemed extremely obvious to me. The purpose of a fever is to attack the harmful organism invading your system...wouldn't reducing the fever impact that? It's a catch-22 in some cases, if the fever gets to the point of nearly killing you itself.
sure it would be true if you still went outside and talked with others while you were sick.... generally speaking, if you are so sick that you need to take medicine to feel better, you would be in your room all day. your chances of coming into contact with someone else while you are taking the medicine(and still have the flu) are slim to none.
So seemingly innocent misuse of pills to feel better, kills more people in the US than mass gun shootings?
Like they say: If you don't take anything for a cold it will last 7 days, but if you take some medicine it will be gone in a week!
Medical professionals have been saying for sometime now that you need to let a fever run it's course. To give an idea how much things have changed I once brought my child into the emergency room for a fever of 105.
I was then made to sign a piece of paper saying that I would not do so again for a temperature that low. Mind you this was the first time I had ever brought my child into the emergency room for a fever. Here's something from the Mayo clinic saying not to even take tyenol below a fever of 102
http://www.mayoclinic.org/dise...
http://pediatrics.aappublicati...
That's 700 people who probably already had a compromised health. These statistics never say how many would have kicked the bucket the following week due to a Rhinovirus, liver failure, etc.
To the authors of the study: don't feed me a line of BS about how many lives could be saved by non-use of Flu medications, unless you're going to prove how many lives were actually saved. Your study is being tossed in the trash can, where it deserves to be.
I'm going to carry on as I always have. Goodbye!
"Things like fever and coughing are part of the body's immune response,"
But not necessarily effective ones. If your lungs are irritated, you cough, whether or not there is something that needs to be expelled. Worse, extensive coughing can cause irritation, which leads to even more coughing.
If you are coughing up mucus, take an expectorant to decrease the viscosity of said mucus (e.g. bromhexine, acetylcysteine) and make the coughing more effective.
If it's a nonproductive dry cough, you should don't hesitate to take an anti-tussitive (cough suppressant), e.g. codeine, noscapine, dextromethorfan.
There's also a theory that common cold symptoms are an allergic reaction that's best suppressed with 1st-generation antihistamines. At least, runny nose and coughing don't expel the virus which is multiplying IN YOUR BODY CELLS.
Disclaimer: I am not an M.D..
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I guess Obamacare will make aspirin illegal now as a preventative action.
That's the least of it. It will destroy our civilization and lead to Stalinism. I know that's true because I've read it on right-wing web sites.
Nothing more than a little drowsiness? Benadryl impairs driving performance more than being drunk. Use a 2nd generation antihistamine like fexofenadine or loratidine.
There's little reason to use diphenhydramine for much of anything these days. Want an antihistamine? Use loratidine. Want to fall asleep? Use doxylamine. Want an anti-emetic? Smoke some pot.
Or try one of the first gen antihistamines from a different family than diphenhydramine. Alkylamines not only have fewer sedative effects than other first gen's, they also often stimulate the central nervous system (aka anti-sedative).
Yes the later gen antihistamines are more awesome as daily use for allergies, but if you just need to temporarily kick a cold's but the first gen ones can often be better (provide relief sooner and provide stronger relief)
Yes, but sometimes it's over responsive. In this case, allergies. The only true long-term healthy solution to allergies is to physically move somewhere else; even if that means another city/state/country.
That's actually not true. People who tend to be allergic will develop allergies to their new environment in less than five years. It's an immune system response.
When I'm in the middle of a severe cold, I often don't mind being a bit drowsy --- I'm generally planning on spending time in bed, rather than one the road, anyway. The sedative effects of diphenhydramine are often a welcome benefit for getting through the "rest and plenty of fluids" stage. Outside of emergency situations, why are you driving around while sick anyway? To share the joy of sickness with your pals at work?
thats more than all the people who've been shot by "crazy" spree shooters in the past 3 decades.
I wonder if congress is going to make a big campaign about this like they do banning guns.
Small doses of what harms you in order to build up the body's ability to resist? That's the original idea behind homeopathic medicine, you know.
If you read books from the early days of homeopathy many of them make vastly more sense - and are more evidence based than other medical books of the same time period. How homeopathy got twisted into the current basket of nutcake I do not really know... but I suspect most of their best ideas got adopted into allopathic medicine, and not vice-versa. Just a suspicion, though - I've read a lot of old books but I have not studied the transition. Today any homeopath with that treated patients according to reason and science would be considered a heretic, because the label's been thoroughly discredited mimetically.
Most people can't afford to be out sick for a week or more.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
Which is why you should stay at home when you're sick.
so since you have spread the infection for one day, before you were showing symptoms, you might as well go ahead and spread it for several more days afterwards?
horsehockey. one day worth of germs 3 days worth of germs.
stay at home when you are sick.
In which case, why bother with suppressing symptoms? Give your boss a big, sloppy, snotty handshake to congratulate him on running such an efficient workplace, without commie fripperies like "sick leave."
because that is the temperature for their optimum growth, derf. higher temperatures = slower growth rate. (for the vast majority of germs that you have to worry about infecting you)
Just get your flu shot you jerks. It's the best deal in medicine. Just get your shot every year, and you can stay out of this foolishness.
I'm not saying that epidemiology is not an inclination of the nerd, but our social inability dismisses the moral dilemma of treating illness symptoms when they affect our human vicinity (which is empty). Why aren't basement dwelling mold and their dangers more promptly reported in this site?
Why the hell would you take PAINKILLERS against the flu?
So they should move somewhere else every 5 years.
My internal thermostat doesn't work properly. It's from being born premature, and has never worked well. I've had temps up to 113 F, and 105 last week when I had the flu. Icewater baths/submersion (which I was subjected to as a kid) feel like being dipped in fire, by the way. No brain damage here that anyone has ever noticed. My "normal" temp does vary though, depending on my health, my diet, and the environment. Generally I run between 96 and 99 degrees F.
People who go to work sick (even with stuff like flu) because they are stubborn are way more dangerous than just the meds (though the meds helps these people with their stubbornness)
Keep your windows open. This will allow the virus to escape outside through very powerful diffusion forces which will keep the inside viral concentration gradient much lower reducing the spread of the disease and enabling the virus in your body to escape more rapidly outside since the concentration gradient in your environment is much lower. It helps a lot.
When all else fails, Benedryl does the trick....
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Well, it appears that I was wrong. My information came from a book on children's health that we were reading. I don't have it handy, or I would give the citation and quote the passage.
I do believe that the book is correct in that a normal fever (up to 105) without other complications won't hurt you. That pretty much agrees with the references you cited. The book also stated that a "fever" above 105 is generally caused by external overheating, not the body itself, which is contradicted by the citations. However, all sources seem to agree that temperatures above 105 are a problem.
Also, back to the context of the article, the flu should not cause a fever that is medically dangerous, so lowering the fever and allowing the disease to spread further is a lose-lose proposition. That said, I dispute that people, for the most part, are taking medications to lower the fever, but instead to treat other symptoms (with the fever lowering being a side-effect) so that they can go to work. Going to work when you're going to spread a disease is a bad idea.
Of course, when they get the vaccine right for the flu strain, only people who want to get the flu have to worry about it.
..how refuse to take medicine for just a friggin' flu, and just tough it out, were right all along, eh?
to fight any illness: sleep.
I recommend taking any off-the-shelf sleeping aid, sleep in a recliner so that you are somewhat upright rather than lying flat, and cover up with a blanket. Your body will heal itself.
The only thing you need to be concerned about is that you are eating and drinking enough fluids to combat nutrition loss and dehydration.
Not necessarily. I developed allergies as a teenager. To this day, when I return to the area of the country where I lived at the time, I get immediate and severe hay fever. When I return to the Northeast, where I've lived since I graduated from college, I have no issues, even in Spring.
Slightly off topic, but have you ever checked out the ingredients for the NyQuil sleep aid, ZzzQuil? It's just Benadryl.
And it was a bear. I ran a fever for nearly a week, and overall it took a good 2 weeks before I really felt 100%. The doctors gave me some horse pills (very large pills that were antibiotics to prevent bronchitis from turning into pneumonia) - you look at the things and wonder whether you can swallow the thing without choking.
All Germs come from Germany. That's why they're called Germs.
It's the other way around: There are many germs in Germany. That's why it's called Germany
-40 is the same in both C and F.
Since -1 * x = x * (-1)
We can infer that 40 is the same in both C and F.
Not sure why the grand-poster has a normal body temperature slightly below the setting in my refrigerator, but hey to each his own.
It's a fantastic deliriant.
Well, if you're a child, you probably shouldn't take aspirin for a fever.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pu...
My other sig is extremely clever...
Because infecting your whole family is okay? Not everyone lives alone, under a bridge.
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Don't fight it, prevent it. Vitamin D supplementation during winter is cheap and efficient.
We are supposed to get sick.. it keeps us healthy! Fuck this bullshit someone please smack all the germaphobe fools in the gob and tell em to shut the hell up!
Aspirin raises body temperature to fight infection.
Source: my Polish pharmacist brother in law
Aspirin raises body temperature to fight infection. Source: my Polish pharmacist brother in law
You have no idea what you are talking about.
Please, no one take this advice.
But what about the excess deaths, brain damage (with economic consequences of the same) that result from prolonged elevated fevers??
Most people have the wrong idea about a fever. Our bodies naturally raise their temperature when they are attacked by pathogens, for a very good reason! This reaction has evolved over millions of years to protect us, because most pathogens (viruses and fungi in particular) cannot reproduce themselves as efficiently at higher temperatures.
If you are sick and have a fever of 102 or less, your best course of action is to go to bed, drink lots of water or other nourishing fluids, and let it run its course. By lowering the fever, you are not only endangering your family and friends (as the article notes) but you will stay sick and miserable longer!!!
The only time you should use an antipyretic (i.e. ibuprofen, aspirin, willow bark) is if you absolutely have to keep functioning in spite of a low fever, or if you have a fever of 103 or more. That is getting up toward the danger zone that could do permanent damage to your brain, and it is important to restrain your body's over-reaction. But go see a doctor right away in that case, because if your immune system is aroused enough to raise your body temperature to a dangerous level then you may have something very serious.