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Fighting the Flu May Hurt Those Around You
sciencehabit writes "When you've got the flu, it can't hurt to take an aspirin or an ibuprofen to control the fever and make you feel better, right? Wrong, some scientists say. Lowering your body temperature may make the virus replicate faster and increase the risk that you transmit it to others. A new study claims that there are at least 700 extra influenza deaths in the United States every year because people suppress their fever."
You're fucked, but I feel better?
Dude, you are so fucked!
read about it in the last few years after one of my kids had an almost 105 fever one week
human pathogens like the 98.6 body temp and a fever is the body's natural way of fighting these pathogens
the flu virus also likes low humidity which is why people buy humidifiers in the winter time
unless my kid has some crazy high fever i try to avoid giving him tylenol or some other fever reducer as long as possible. usually until its almost time for bed
The histamine response has an actual infection-fighting purpose, so even though it also produces inconvenient/unpleasant side effects (runny nose, sneezing, etc.), it seems like it might not always be a good idea to suppress it.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
but its not in the scope of slashdot crowd - so yeah, its probably news
I think most people use fever lowering drugs to be able to get to work. Best way to infect as many people as you can...
No shit sherlock.
Fever is one of your body's ways to fight infection. When you supress it, you "enable the virus."
But I will take antipyretics when I damn well feel like it. Tough shit if someone else gets sick.
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1331461 is only semiprime *sigh* Alas - I am just short of 1337.
As much as I like the occasional aspirin or paracetamol, when I have a cold or similar, I try to make a concious effort to raise my body temperature as much as possible to aid in the virus fighting efforts of my body. Seems to work well whenever I do it, even if it is uncomfortable at times. I try to use drugs only as a last resort.
On the other hand, if the weather gets hot, I've been known to pop an aspirin purely to lower my body temperature so I can be somewhat useful and cope.
"If anyone needs me, I'm in the angry dome."
Yes, but sometimes it's over responsive. In this case, allergies. The only true long-term healthy solution to allergies is to physically move somewhere else; even if that means another city/state/country.
Life is not for the lazy.
Considering the population of the USA the percentage of the population killed each year by this is 0.00022300095%. On the other hand deaths for the flu have been as low as 3000 yearly so that's 23.3% of deaths. Still, the number of deaths compared to the population makes it comparable to winning the lottery in any case.
Yes, but sometimes it's over responsive. In this case, allergies. The only true long-term healthy solution to allergies is to physically move somewhere else; even if that means another city/state/country.
Or allergy tolerance shots. I get injected every week with a dose of what I am allergic to, in order to slowly build up my allergen tolerance and lower the amount of drugs I need to control my symptoms. It's to the point where I can now have pets!
With infections, I've always taken the approach of doing only as much symptom-relief as absolutely for my sanity/productivity/safety. Things like fever and coughing are part of the body's immune response, and letting them do their work will result in a faster recovery, so I'll put up with the discomfort and inconvenience.
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Fevers don't kill people. The immune system isn't that self-destructive. The fear of fevers is a holdover from pandemics like polio where diseases associated with high fevers could kill or cause brain damage. The fever wasn't what caused the problems, but people didn't know better.
I think most people (myself included) take the meds for 'aches and pains' and to sleep. The fever gets suppressed as a byproduct of those meds. If there was some way to take meds to keep the fever without aching joints and a screaming headache that would be fine with me.
If you die from a 99f fever, you best not go outside in the summer. The point is many people suppress almost all fevers and not just the bad ones.
Exactly. For example, if you have a cold, the best medicine is Benadryl. Most of the symptoms of the cold are just an over reaction of your bodies imune system and you're basically having an allergic reaction to the virus. All the other over the counter cold medicines don't work very well and usually get you high as a kite. But the Benadryl almost always clears up my symptoms with nothing more than a little drowsiness.
I suppose it is then logical to assume increasing the infection rates of others you contact won't keep you up at night, either.
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I'm quite sure the larger contributing factor to the flu spreading is people going to work while sick, not a suppressed fever.
Much better approach would be creating a culture in the USA where its OK to stay home when sick.
But of course we can't do that, because SOCIALISM.
That's generally my approach also, but it's possible for the response to be worse than the illness in some cases. For example the response to a cold could develop into bronchitis if you get a lot of post-nasal drip into the lungs, which is probably worse than the cold lingering an extra day or two.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Ok, so it is between ME dying of fever, or someone else.
That's a pretty easy choice to make...no?
Or you could do the right thing, and be considerate of others. Stay home, if you're sick. Take care of yourself; plus don't share your germs/virii/whatever.
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I brought this up with my physician. Apparently these inconvenient side effects can actually be damaging if you have them long term, while allergens don't cause harm at all (that is the definition of an allergen). Of course, in the case of something that does cause harm, the immune response would be beneficial, but it's hard to tell the difference. In the case of someone with allergies, it's just the fact that in >95% of cases the problem is just allergy and it's beneficial to suppress the reaction.
Nonetheless, you are completely right of course.
Here's an idea.. Get sick, stay home! If you wan to medicate at home, knock yourself out. Just don't come to work and avoid going out in public.
Employers should be *actively* looking though their employees and sending home those who are sick. Have a fever? Go home. Don't come back until at least 24 hours w/o a fever. Take your laptop, work from home. Day Care's should have the *same* policy for workers and children, don't come in if you had a fever in the last 24 hours.
I'm serious, this *should* be a matter of law. I know that it won't fix everything, but it sure will slow down a virus if folks would be careful. I live with a person who has a compromised immune system. Getting a virus is a *serious* deal for us and may someday kill them. We have to be extremely careful and I just hate it when I have to deal with people who are obviously ill in public.
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I got up to 103.1 at which point I figured enough is enough. My mental function was impaired. I brought it back down to 102.5 (with a bath and ibuprofen) where I could think again. But I think letting it get so high helped get rid of it faster instead of my friend (who gave it to me) was constantly medicated and I don't think he ever got above 102.0. He had it for the majority of the week, me, just 3 days.
Sure, letting your fever get up there, but at 103 you get cognitive impairment, 104 you begin to get brain damage, 105 brain damage is happening and 108 is death. So Sure let it get high, but not too high.
Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
Actually, it's not an allergic reaction on the virus. Allergic is a reaction if the target would be harmless to the body. But a virus is not, and the reaction is actually necessary. Suppressing the reaction thus means the virus is not attacked at all, or at least it is attacked with a reduced intensity. So while you might feel better with Benadryl, in fact you are in the same camp like the people who suppress the fever -- being sick longer, being contagious longer, and thus prolonging the flu waves.
If you're sick and the doctor hasn't told you to take any medicine then don't take anything! First of all no one should ever take Aspirin or Tylenol, it's a horrible drug, it's destroys your body, second of all, just don't take medicine when you're sick, let your body fight the sickness itself, unless you're told by a medical professional.
Is the fever a side result of the effect of the virus on the organism ? Or is it a way for the organism to fight the virus and eliminate it ? Because we get fevers in most cases of severe infections and I doubt most germs are sensitive to a 3C increase in body temperature... I can still brew beer from anything like 10C to 40C...
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Younger generations now embrace the method of lowering the temperature by butting ice packs... one difference is the ice pack method instantly reduces the pain associated with fever/flu.
Fever/flu has never induced pain in that region for me.
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Okay, fighting the flu may spread it. So does taking public transportation and being around people in general. Also whenever I buy gas I increase the demand for it assisting in rising costs for others Same thing when I purchase groceries too, what about those poor families? I should buy less groceries so prices may go down a bit. My gas and electric bills have the same effect. When I heat my house it increases a demand for these utilities which means my neighbors Will potentially have to pay more as well due to increase in demand. If it's not dramatically affecting people, I'm going to do things to help me survive, and other people will be affected, just as they affect me
Things like coughing, runny nose, and sneezing, are also how your viral infection spreads to other people. Even if you are sick slightly longer, not infecting those around you is still a positive outcome.
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I would rather it be you than me. I will take the aspirin.
With an intact cough reflex you can't get post nasal drip in your lungs. The primary reason you get a bronchitis is 1) you didn't have a bronchitis (inflammation of the bronchioles, the larger airways of the lungs, you had a cough because of the drainage 2) the inflammation was viral and the nasty little proteinacous particle managed to scoot past the upper airway defenses or 3) the viral infection compromised the already compromised lining of the bronchioles (smoke, smoke, smoke that cigarette) and allowed a bacterial infection to set up.
So the post nasal drip scenario isn't a good way to look at.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
They get infected because people suppress their fever and go out and act as if nothing happened.
That's like claiming that antivirus kits cause more infections because people get them, feel safe and then go and act as if nothing could happen to them anymore. These things, like medication, is supposed to be an aid, not a substitute.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
That's fine as long as you take care to avoid spreading your germs around. I see a lot of people who cough into their hands and then immediately touch things. If it gets really bad take some time off work and stay in bed, recover faster. I know it is hard in the US due to ridiculous rules on sickness, but it's better for everyone in the long run.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
This article is brought to you by Benadryl, American's number one cold medication!
Seriously though it's not that brilliant, just the best that they trust you with.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Or you could do the right thing, and be considerate of others. Stay home, if you're sick. Take care of yourself; plus don't share your germs/virii/whatever.
Yes. This. STAY HOME. Only sneeze on people you don't like.
The other problem, not a part of this particular experiment is that for many viral infections (not sure about influenza specifically) you are most contagious just before the outbreak of major symptoms. You don't feel especially well, but you're not really 'sick' so you do go out and mingle with the rest of the world, dropping viral particles on every local surface and setting up a new chain of life for the microscopic annoyance.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
Nothing more than a little drowsiness? Benadryl impairs driving performance more than being drunk. Use a 2nd generation antihistamine like fexofenadine or loratidine.
There's little reason to use diphenhydramine for much of anything these days. Want an antihistamine? Use loratidine. Want to fall asleep? Use doxylamine. Want an anti-emetic? Smoke some pot.
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If someone takes medicine to lower a fever but stays at home until he/she is better then nobody else gets the flu. Yet people who get sick feel compelled to go to work because of work ethics or pressure from employers, and they expose everyone who is on the train/bus with them, or in the line at Starbucks. Surely the message should not be "if you take asprin you're killing people", but "stay home until you're better"!
When sick, if I have a fever I only deal with it if it gets any higher than 101F. That way the fever does what it's supposed to and I avoid delerium and death. This was the advice my Doctor gave for my children and I figure if It's good enough for a toddler it's good enough for me.
sure it would be true if you still went outside and talked with others while you were sick.... generally speaking, if you are so sick that you need to take medicine to feel better, you would be in your room all day. your chances of coming into contact with someone else while you are taking the medicine(and still have the flu) are slim to none.
This isn't tragedy of the commons, it's ignorance of the biological facts causing people to make irrational choices.
Fevers are part of your immune response. Taking medicine to reduce your fever so you will feel better is always counter productive to becoming healthy (the only exception being if the fever itself is so extreme it poses a separate health rick with is exceedingly rare). Unfortunately too many people don't pay attention in middle school biology so they think fevers are bad (because they feel bad) and try to medicate them away.
So seemingly innocent misuse of pills to feel better, kills more people in the US than mass gun shootings?
Medical professionals have been saying for sometime now that you need to let a fever run it's course. To give an idea how much things have changed I once brought my child into the emergency room for a fever of 105.
I was then made to sign a piece of paper saying that I would not do so again for a temperature that low. Mind you this was the first time I had ever brought my child into the emergency room for a fever. Here's something from the Mayo clinic saying not to even take tyenol below a fever of 102
http://www.mayoclinic.org/dise...
http://pediatrics.aappublicati...
That's 700 people who probably already had a compromised health. These statistics never say how many would have kicked the bucket the following week due to a Rhinovirus, liver failure, etc.
To the authors of the study: don't feed me a line of BS about how many lives could be saved by non-use of Flu medications, unless you're going to prove how many lives were actually saved. Your study is being tossed in the trash can, where it deserves to be.
I'm going to carry on as I always have. Goodbye!
"Things like fever and coughing are part of the body's immune response,"
But not necessarily effective ones. If your lungs are irritated, you cough, whether or not there is something that needs to be expelled. Worse, extensive coughing can cause irritation, which leads to even more coughing.
If you are coughing up mucus, take an expectorant to decrease the viscosity of said mucus (e.g. bromhexine, acetylcysteine) and make the coughing more effective.
If it's a nonproductive dry cough, you should don't hesitate to take an anti-tussitive (cough suppressant), e.g. codeine, noscapine, dextromethorfan.
There's also a theory that common cold symptoms are an allergic reaction that's best suppressed with 1st-generation antihistamines. At least, runny nose and coughing don't expel the virus which is multiplying IN YOUR BODY CELLS.
Disclaimer: I am not an M.D..
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I guess Obamacare will make aspirin illegal now as a preventative action.
That's the least of it. It will destroy our civilization and lead to Stalinism. I know that's true because I've read it on right-wing web sites.
Yes, but sometimes it's over responsive. In this case, allergies. The only true long-term healthy solution to allergies is to physically move somewhere else; even if that means another city/state/country.
That's actually not true. People who tend to be allergic will develop allergies to their new environment in less than five years. It's an immune system response.
When I'm in the middle of a severe cold, I often don't mind being a bit drowsy --- I'm generally planning on spending time in bed, rather than one the road, anyway. The sedative effects of diphenhydramine are often a welcome benefit for getting through the "rest and plenty of fluids" stage. Outside of emergency situations, why are you driving around while sick anyway? To share the joy of sickness with your pals at work?
thats more than all the people who've been shot by "crazy" spree shooters in the past 3 decades.
I wonder if congress is going to make a big campaign about this like they do banning guns.
Small doses of what harms you in order to build up the body's ability to resist? That's the original idea behind homeopathic medicine, you know.
If you read books from the early days of homeopathy many of them make vastly more sense - and are more evidence based than other medical books of the same time period. How homeopathy got twisted into the current basket of nutcake I do not really know... but I suspect most of their best ideas got adopted into allopathic medicine, and not vice-versa. Just a suspicion, though - I've read a lot of old books but I have not studied the transition. Today any homeopath with that treated patients according to reason and science would be considered a heretic, because the label's been thoroughly discredited mimetically.
Most people can't afford to be out sick for a week or more.
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so since you have spread the infection for one day, before you were showing symptoms, you might as well go ahead and spread it for several more days afterwards?
horsehockey. one day worth of germs 3 days worth of germs.
stay at home when you are sick.
because that is the temperature for their optimum growth, derf. higher temperatures = slower growth rate. (for the vast majority of germs that you have to worry about infecting you)
Because its better to die of the symptoms. Yes. Those stupid XIXth century people who invented these drugs knew nothing about it.
So they should move somewhere else every 5 years.
People who go to work sick (even with stuff like flu) because they are stubborn are way more dangerous than just the meds (though the meds helps these people with their stubbornness)
That's why people should take the medicine when the fever is dangerously hot, not simply because it's uncomfortable. Reducing a fever is going to help the infection. Reducing a not-dangerous fever is entirely counter-productive. Your point?
When all else fails, Benedryl does the trick....
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Well, it appears that I was wrong. My information came from a book on children's health that we were reading. I don't have it handy, or I would give the citation and quote the passage.
I do believe that the book is correct in that a normal fever (up to 105) without other complications won't hurt you. That pretty much agrees with the references you cited. The book also stated that a "fever" above 105 is generally caused by external overheating, not the body itself, which is contradicted by the citations. However, all sources seem to agree that temperatures above 105 are a problem.
Also, back to the context of the article, the flu should not cause a fever that is medically dangerous, so lowering the fever and allowing the disease to spread further is a lose-lose proposition. That said, I dispute that people, for the most part, are taking medications to lower the fever, but instead to treat other symptoms (with the fever lowering being a side-effect) so that they can go to work. Going to work when you're going to spread a disease is a bad idea.
Of course, when they get the vaccine right for the flu strain, only people who want to get the flu have to worry about it.
..how refuse to take medicine for just a friggin' flu, and just tough it out, were right all along, eh?
So take the ibuprofen and stay home.
Have you ever had the flu? Body/joint aches and headaches are a common (and, IME, usually the most debilitating) symptom.
Not necessarily. I developed allergies as a teenager. To this day, when I return to the area of the country where I lived at the time, I get immediate and severe hay fever. When I return to the Northeast, where I've lived since I graduated from college, I have no issues, even in Spring.
Since I got a Roku with Plex thats all I do anyway, Works for me.
Slightly off topic, but have you ever checked out the ingredients for the NyQuil sleep aid, ZzzQuil? It's just Benadryl.
Hmm, when the outside temperature is below zero, keeping the windows open doesn't seem like that great of a strategy.
And it was a bear. I ran a fever for nearly a week, and overall it took a good 2 weeks before I really felt 100%. The doctors gave me some horse pills (very large pills that were antibiotics to prevent bronchitis from turning into pneumonia) - you look at the things and wonder whether you can swallow the thing without choking.
All Germs come from Germany. That's why they're called Germs.
It's the other way around: There are many germs in Germany. That's why it's called Germany
Well, if you're a child, you probably shouldn't take aspirin for a fever.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pu...
My other sig is extremely clever...
Because infecting your whole family is okay? Not everyone lives alone, under a bridge.
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Don't fight it, prevent it. Vitamin D supplementation during winter is cheap and efficient.
We are supposed to get sick.. it keeps us healthy! Fuck this bullshit someone please smack all the germaphobe fools in the gob and tell em to shut the hell up!
Aspirin raises body temperature to fight infection. Source: my Polish pharmacist brother in law
They produce honey for the entire time there are flowers, and if the pollen is in the air, so are the bees. The honey you get in a jar has also been mixed, it's not like they give you individual honeycomb cells.
He tried to kill me with a forklift!
You have no idea what you are talking about.
Please, no one take this advice.