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Australia OKs Dumping Dredge Waste In Barrier Reef

An anonymous reader writes "Australia's Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Authority has approved the dumping of 3 million cubic meters of dredge waste in park waters. The decision has been blasted by environmentalists. 'This is a sad day for the reef and anyone who cares about its future,' said WWF Great Barrier Reef campaigner Richard Leck. 'The World Heritage Committee will take a dim view of this decision, which is in direct contravention of one of its recommendations.'"

194 of 277 comments (clear)

  1. Sign the petition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This might help:

    https://www.getup.org.au/campaigns/coal-seam-gas/unesco-great-barrier-reef

    It's absolutely disgraceful that politicians can be so short sighted as to allow this to happen. It makes my blood boil.

    1. Re:Sign the petition by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If the shit was not "Waste" before it was scooped up and moved to another spot, then it's still not "Waste".

      "Dredge waste" is more commonly called "sand". It is not exactly toxic industrial sludge that they are dumping.

    2. Re:Sign the petition by deek · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The conditions require that sediment entering the marine park be reduced by 150 percent over the long term -- a "net benefit" to water quality -- and that $81 million be contributed to reef conservation programs and specific measures observed to protect marine flora and fauna.

      It's important to note the sea floor of the approved disposal area consists of sand, silt and clay and does not contain coral reefs or seagrass beds.

        Hmmm, this decision could actually be a benefit to the reef, not a detraction. I'd hope so, considering the park authority approved it. These are people who love the reef, are tasked with the job of protecting the reef, and are presumably experts in marine ecology and environment. They approved it. I'd say it's a very good chance that they made a good decision.

    3. Re:Sign the petition by Dantoo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Hilarious the way the ultra-green misrepresent this stuff. Boldly lie and keep telling lies and the world just loves to be outraged. I've even seen some US media reporting that the spoils will be dumped on coral!.

      What a load of crap. Simply moving dredge spoil from one place to another and under incredibly strict guidelines. The actual reef is 40 miles away from where this is happening and the local rivers spew far more "spoil" into the area every year from the rainy season. Stupid people believing the shit that comes from the WWF.

       

    4. Re:Sign the petition by Dantoo · · Score: 1

      Nice TROLL!

      Kiwi or Pom btw? ::P

    5. Re:Sign the petition by zaphod777 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      While this is a complex issue, coral health really depends on water clarity and lack of nutrients in the water column. I am mostly worried if this will make the water so murky or even bury the coral. This may be far enough away that it won't make a difference but it needs to be taken into account.

      --
      "Don't Panic!"
    6. Re: Sign the petition by weilawei · · Score: 5, Funny

      There’s no point acting all surprised about it. All the planning charts and demolition orders have been on display in your local planning department in Alpha Centauri for fifty of your Earth years, so you’ve had plenty of time to lodge any formal complaint and it’s far too late to start making a fuss about it now.

    7. Re:Sign the petition by weilawei · · Score: 5, Interesting

      That's known as an appeal to authority. We hear them a lot on /., usually in reference to some policy made "for the children" or "to protect us". Save it for someone who cares. Citations or GTFO and don't make uselessly speculative comments. For example, you could cite WHICH experts approved it, since that would allow us to more easily judge if there's a financial motive or other outstanding bias which should not have factored into their decision, above and beyond their expert status.

    8. Re:Sign the petition by weilawei · · Score: 1

      Replying to myself in terrible form: I know you said "park authority" but this is a US-centric website. Maybe some details on the individuals within this, presumably large and heterogeneous, group that actually used their wisdom to make a decision? That's really what I'm driving at with asking you to cite, in this instance.

    9. Re:Sign the petition by weilawei · · Score: 3, Informative

      The site for the material to be placed is approximately 17 miles away. Where do you get 40? The initial location? Irrelevant. I could scoop it off the moon, and as long as I put it 17 miles from the reef, it'd still be 17 miles away from where "this is happening". I'm not arguing whether it's environmentally sound or not, but I do think that fudging numbers and using them creatively is a bad policy. Try harder next time.

    10. Re:Sign the petition by TapeCutter · · Score: 5, Informative

      In this specific case it's actually sand mixed with fine silt, it's clean but silt is a problem for coral, it needs clear water or it will die from insufficient sunlight. Having said that there is no coral at the dumping site, but there's plenty nearby and oceans have currents and storms that will move it around. It would have been much simpler to sail the barges a bit further out to open water off the continental shelf and dump it in the open ocean, but that would have cost a few more dollars so instead they lobby the feds to gain permission to vandalise the reef.

      This new government has a vindictive ideological grudge against environmental issues, they are also planning to open up 70-something thousand hectares of world heritage forest in Tasmania to logging. Despite the fact that after decades of wrangling, loggers and environment groups agreed on a peace deal last year that included a ban on logging in that forest. Forestry is a major part of Tasmania's economy, nobody on either side of that long and arduous fight wants to reignite the divisive issue except the new federal government.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    11. Re:Sign the petition by weilawei · · Score: 5, Informative

      This is what I get for not running the numbers myself: It's actually 15.5ish miles, but my point stands the same, even more so, if anything.

    12. Re:Sign the petition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No, they are dredging mud around the harbour and then taking into the marine national park (commonly called the Great Barrier Reef) and dumping it. On any day there will be a 20% chance that that fine particles in the water will drift on to the coral itself (which is already under stress from the crown of thorns starfish etc.) All to save money on having to process the mud on land and dump it (as it is too toxic to simply dump on land.) It is of no benefit to the park.

    13. Re:Sign the petition by Joce640k · · Score: 2

      "Dredge waste" is more commonly called "sand". It is not exactly toxic industrial sludge that they are dumping.

      Even so, can't they just drive a bit further out to sea before pressing the "dump" button?

      --
      No sig today...
    14. Re:Sign the petition by quenda · · Score: 5, Funny

      Even so, can't they just drive a bit further out to sea before pressing the "dump" button?

      No, because there is this big reef in the way, that forms a rather great barrier.

    15. Re:Sign the petition by robbak · · Score: 1

      So you want them to dump the spoil closer to the reef???? The great barrier reef is about 75 km off the coast at Bowen, where this development is happening, and you'd need to travel twice that to be outside the boundaries of the marine park.

      --
      Prediction for end of Universe #42: Fencepost error in Quantum_bogosort.cpp
    16. Re:Sign the petition by Mashiki · · Score: 2, Informative

      We see the same thing in Canada, the main perpetrators are the Tides Foundation and the WWF. It's gotten bad enough that they're paying money to native groups in order to create an artificial voice on an issue.

      And before some liberal moonbat starts whining "omg sunnews" just remember, that out of all the other networks in Canada, they were the only one doing a story on it at first. Because natives are a "sensitive issue" here so they don't want to offend them.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    17. Re:Sign the petition by Buchenskjoll · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If the shit was not "Waste" before it was scooped up and moved to another spot, then it's still not "Waste".

      The wrapping around you chocolate bar is not waste, you peel it off, eat the chocolate and it's still not waste?

      You buy a roll of toilet paper, wipe your sorry ass with it and it's still not waste?

      --
      -- Make America hate again!
    18. Re:Sign the petition by sa1lnr · · Score: 1

      Can't be a pom as we say arsehole, not asshole. :)

    19. Re: Sign the petition by Infestedkudzu · · Score: 1

      I never have mod points when i want them +1 funny

    20. Re:Sign the petition by godel_56 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If the shit was not "Waste" before it was scooped up and moved to another spot, then it's still not "Waste".

      "Dredge waste" is more commonly called "sand". It is not exactly toxic industrial sludge that they are dumping.

      Sometimes dredge waste is called "silt" or even "mud".

      Oh well, the Great Barrier reef will be dead in a few decades anyway from rising sea temperatures, some no real harm done.

      /bitter_cynicism

    21. Re:Sign the petition by thegarbz · · Score: 5, Informative

      You mean the park authority headed up by these guys?

      Colour me sceptical that this is such a great benefit to the reef.

    22. Re:Sign the petition by Mr0bvious · · Score: 1

      Australia has not okay'd this, some fsking bureaucratic fsckwits have - but I'm pretty sure most of Australia is pretty pissed about it!
       

      --
      Never happened. True story.
    23. Re:Sign the petition by DarkOx · · Score: 2

      Sounds awful like "I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today" to me. I American politics by the time Tuesday rolls around it's renamed some sort of "cliff" and the payment is further deferred. The plan sounds like it could be good for the reef but I think the protect the reef lobby has good reason to be suspicious

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    24. Re:Sign the petition by flyneye · · Score: 2

      Yeah, damn that sucks, imagine them polluting the ocean with dirt from the ocean! The least they could do is clean it first.
      We could get lots of volunteers to clean the dirt and place it carefully where it could sustain an underwater garden and recycle this filthy dirt into something useful.
      If there arent enough volunteers we can always get all the lobotomies from the mental health center to help.
      If God had wanted dirt at the bottom of the ocean, he wouldve put it there. If God had wanted fish to swim in dirty water, he would let them poop in it!
      Something MUST be done! Someone must act! There isnt time to think! SPEND SOME MONEY for Gods sake before its too late. Send some money or Ill shoot this dog! Somebody care PLEEEEAASSEE!

      --
      *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
    25. Re:Sign the petition by aurizon · · Score: 5, Interesting

      A lot depends on the amount of 'fines', very fine particles or clays that float in the water column and can drift for miles. These fines can coat the coral animal (which is busy filtering particles from the water column and eating the organic ones,) If the floating feed changes from 50% organic to 2% organic, the animals internal systems might become fatigued from dumping waste and not getting enough energy to fuel this waste separation - the animal starves.

      They might have to place water curtains to constrain the fines, which can only be done in low current areas, or add some flocculating agent to speed-settle the fines.
      The good thing is the Aussies claim they will make sure there are no wide ranging fines to foul corals - will they be right? What will happen with a cyclonic storm? Cyclonic storm happen a few times in the year and they fill the water column with waste fines - which the coral deal with - perhaps because storm fines also have organic content. Perhaps the way to assist the coral animal is to add a little extra fine food to 'pay' for the extra work the coral animal has to perform in processing useless fines.?

    26. Re: Sign the petition by fractoid · · Score: 1

      They were on display...

      In the bottom of a locked filing cabinet...

      Stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying beware of the leopard!

      --
      Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
    27. Re:Sign the petition by Pav · · Score: 1

      You're an idiot. My brother is a builder, and must be ultra careful to control sediment flow from his building sites. This is because the reef was dying, studies were done, and it was realised increased sediment runoff from clearing, agriculture, cities etc... was killing the reef. We were much more careful about this kind of thing, but apparently these days that's all greeny bullsh*t, and we're back to carefree shovelling.

    28. Re:Sign the petition by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      But why is the reef the only place to dump it? Is there not some nearby land-based use for large quantities of sand?

    29. Re:Sign the petition by wagnerrp · · Score: 1

      Despite the fact that after decades of wrangling, loggers and environment groups agreed on a peace deal last year that included a ban on logging in that forest.

      Peace deal? You make it sound as if they were causing physical harm to each other.

    30. Re:Sign the petition by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      The conditions require that sediment entering the marine park be reduced by 150 percent over the long term

      Wonder how they intend to manage that - first stop 100% of the sediments entering the park, then work on that last 50%?

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    31. Re:Sign the petition by LoRdTAW · · Score: 1

      He got his units or conversion math backwards. 25 miles is about 40km. Your factor of 17 is also off, the conversion factor for miles to km is 0.62.

    32. Re: Sign the petition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      There is no coral where they are dumping it, it's going 20km from the reef but still in the marine park area. the area where it is going does not even have any seagrass and is basically the same sand as what will be dumped on it.

    33. Re:Sign the petition by musmax · · Score: 1

      Not all violence is committed against humans.

    34. Re:Sign the petition by dywolf · · Score: 1

      you have no clue what you are talking about

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    35. Re:Sign the petition by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Perhaps the way to assist the coral animal is to add a little extra fine food to 'pay' for the extra work the coral animal has to perform in processing useless fines.?

      And then that will end up being chicken processing waste... like what goes into many fish farms

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    36. Re:Sign the petition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Is this paper edited by toddlers? I'm not a liberal moonbat - hell, I've never heard of this cockamamie paper before you linked it - but I do expect journalistic endeavors to be written in comprehensible English when billed as such.

    37. Re:Sign the petition by fatphil · · Score: 1

      So that scrapie can jump to another species...

      --
      Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
    38. Re:Sign the petition by aurizon · · Score: 2

      Well, I think chicken processing waste would have too much blood, cellular contents etc, and might well contribute to a bacterial or dinoflagellate bloom (red tide = toxic).
      Finely ground crab shells, shrimp shells and even ground cellulosic waste that had energy content the coral polyps could digest and use would provide energy to process excess inert fines.

      Obviously, we do not want to add one problem onto another, so some research into the ramifications of the inert plume and a potential feeding additive to sustain the polyps to see if it can be done.
      I see they say they will dump far from the coral areas, have they made any studies of plum migration via currents? Will they stop dumping when a cyclonic storm is gathering? These cyclones thrash to to 10 meters very thoroughly and stir up natural fines - how does the coral deal with these natural fines? Can they find a maximum amount of man made fines the polyps can live with? and make rules and enforce them to save the corals?
      There are many questions that need answering before we dump these fines.

    39. Re:Sign the petition by dywolf · · Score: 1

      people forget that coral is a very low energy animal, being one that's evolved to exist in what is essentially an aquatic desert as far as filter feeders are concerned: low caloric content, low nutrient content, etc etc. coral leads an existence very similar to that of desert dwelling plants that can take hundred and thousands of years to grow in very marginal conditions that can be upset quite easily.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    40. Re:Sign the petition by dywolf · · Score: 1

      and?
      its a bloody big ocean.
      they arent hurting for space or options.

      so naturally they pick the most ecologically sensitive location?!
      it really does seem malicious in a sense.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    41. Re:Sign the petition by dywolf · · Score: 1

      the coral exists because the local rivers around there have these things called mangroves, that are one of the best natural filters on earth, such that they actually spew very little spoil into the open sea, especially compared to other river systems which dont have mangroves or similar natural filters.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    42. Re:Sign the petition by aurizon · · Score: 1

      Yes, no need for thermal heat, not mobile = de factor low energy, still they whip those cilia around

    43. Re:Sign the petition by dywolf · · Score: 1

      basically you dont know what you're talking about, and the only one boldly lying, is you.

      the coral exists because the local rivers around there have these things called mangroves, that are one of the best natural filters on earth, such that they actually spew very little spoil into the open sea, especially compared to other river systems which dont have mangroves or similar natural filters.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    44. Re:Sign the petition by tomhath · · Score: 1

      We hear them a lot on /., usually in reference to some policy made "for the children" or "to protect us". Save it for someone who cares.

      Interesting response, because the protesters are doing exactly that by using the reef as an excuse to hide their true agenda, which is an attempt by Global Warming Alarmists to block the export of an evil fossil fuel (coal) for use in India.

      FTFA:

      The decision follows the government giving the green light to a major coal port expansion for India's Adani Group on the reef coast

    45. Re:Sign the petition by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      Then I suggest you don't come to Canada, or travel to Europe. Where we use forms of English, not used in the US. Oh and I'd skip Singapore while you're at it.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    46. Re: Sign the petition by BESTouff · · Score: 1

      The problem I see is that fines will darken the water, and coral has a symbiotic algae that obviously needs sunlight to survive and feed its host. No light = dead coral.

    47. Re:Sign the petition by deek · · Score: 1

      The accused are not the head of the park authority. Russell Reichelt is the head, a research scientist with a PHD in marine science.

      Accusations for two of the board members does not mean they're actually guilty. The two members are a minority within the board. It's good that there is an inquiry into possible conflict of interest, though.

      81 million dollars _will_ make quite a difference to reef conservations programs, whereas dumping dredged waste far from a reef area _may possibly_ affect the reef. Though apparently history shows that previous dumps have had no effect on reef water quality.

      Honestly, the whole reaction to this decision reeks of scare tactics. When someone resorts to such tactics, I get quite sceptical of their side of the argument, essentially achieving the exact opposite of what they intend. Since I'm not very knowledgeable of the situation, I cannot comment authoritatively on whether this decision will benefit the reef. My instinct is that it is a positive decision, though.

    48. Re:Sign the petition by thoughtlover · · Score: 1

      Sometimes dredge waste is called "silt" or even "mud".

      Oh well, the Great Barrier reef will be dead in a few decades anyway from rising sea temperatures, some no real harm done.

      /bitter_cynicism

      The real harm is the lowering of the pH. NOAA says the ocean is responsible for nearly 50% of the oxygen on this planet where others say it's up to 80%. Regardless, it's been belching CO2 back into the atmosphere instead of processing it in warmer areas near the equator. Too much CO2 and carbonic acid forms and the ocean gets more acidic. Bad for zooplankton, invertebrates and fish, but good for jellyfish and bacteria. As of 2005, there were something like 170 known dead zones around the world. We're losing the greatest diversity we will never know.

      --
      No sig for you! Come back one year!
    49. Re: Sign the petition by stub667 · · Score: 1

      Funny? Insightful. We knew what would happen, and Australia voted them in anyway.

    50. Re: Sign the petition by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      Stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying beware of the leopard!

      Yes, how DID Douglas Adams know about Apple's OS naming policies in the early 1980s?

      And to think, we're only 39 versions away from the Ultimate Kernel. That'll make it ... about year 2460 for the end of computing?

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  2. By reef... by LordLucless · · Score: 5, Informative

    And by "reef", they mean a patch of silt 25km away from the actual reef.

    --
    Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    1. Re:By reef... by mjwx · · Score: 5, Informative

      And by "reef", they mean a patch of silt 25km away from the actual reef.

      You do know that 25 KM is not a long distance, it's only 17 miles if you're not competent with metric measurements.

      25 KM will easily be covered by currents.

      The federal Australian government is also attempting to have the old growth forests in Tasmania de-listed as a world heritage area so they can log there.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    2. Re:By reef... by Nutria · · Score: 1

      25 KM will easily be covered by currents.

      Implying that the current flows from the dump site towards the reef?

      --
      "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
    3. Re:By reef... by LordLucless · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You do know that if I said I was dumping a million tonnes of rubble on your house, and then actually dumped it 25km away, your house wouldn't be crushed, right? If the currents are able to move silt from the dump site to the reef, then they are already doing so - nothing's being dumped that isn't already there.

      As for Tasmania, almost 50% of the entire state is currently world heritage listed. I don't think de-listing a fraction of a percent of that is going to cause much damage.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    4. Re:By reef... by mjwx · · Score: 5, Insightful

      25 KM will easily be covered by currents.

      Implying that the current flows from the dump site towards the reef?

      Implying that things in the water will only go one way?

      Along with currents you also have sea life and humans that will also move detritus quite easily.

      You might not be familiar with water, but things dumped in the water (especially particulate matter like silt) rarely stays where you dump it.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    5. Re:By reef... by mjwx · · Score: 2

      You do know that if I said I was dumping a million tonnes of rubble on your house, and then actually dumped it 25km away, your house wouldn't be crushed, right?

      Only a tiny amount of the crap you dump needs to get to my house in order for it to be damaged and become unliveable.

      There's a good reason they don't dump a million tonnes of rubble near residential zones. the dust kicked up alone would play havoc with local residents.

      As for Tasmania, almost 50% of the entire state is currently world heritage listed. I don't think de-listing a fraction of a percent of that is going to cause much damage.

      Again, there are good reasons for this. There isn't another environment like Tasmania in the world. But developing sustainable forestry is hard and cutting down old growth is easy. No point in even trying sustainable forestry (not like we're running out of old growth now are we).

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    6. Re:By reef... by NoNonAlphaCharsHere · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And by "reef", they mean a patch of silt 25km away from the actual reef.

      And Deepwater Horizon was 77km (48 miles) from shore. This just in: ocean currents move stuff around.

    7. Re:By reef... by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 2

      The federal Australian government is also attempting to have the old growth forests in Tasmania de-listed as a world heritage area so they can log there.

      If anyone wants to see how gorgeous Tasmania is, check out the Willem Dafoe movie "The Hunter" - the landscapes are stunning.

      http://www.imdb.com/title/tt17...

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    8. Re:By reef... by LordLucless · · Score: 3, Interesting

      There's a good reason they don't dump a million tonnes of rubble near residential zones. the dust kicked up alone would play havoc with local residents.

      For how long? You might get a couple of dusty days until it all settles down again. Hardly a national emergency. The reason they don't dump tonnes of rubble in residential zones is because the land is more valuable as real estate than a dumping ground, and millions of tonnes of rubble takes up a whole lotta space.

      But developing sustainable forestry is hard and cutting down old growth is easy. No point in even trying sustainable forestry (not like we're running out of old growth now are we).

      They've got plenty of sustainable forestry. But you can't scale up an industry if there's nowhere for it to scale out to - you need cleared land to plant the sustainable-growth forest. I'd have no problem with Tasmania limiting their own industry, if they weren't getting subsidised by the other states to keep them above water while they did it (Tasmania gets about twice the GST revenue, per capita, as most other states - NT being the exception).

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    9. Re:By reef... by hawguy · · Score: 3, Funny

      You do know that 25 KM is not a long distance, it's only 17 miles if you're not competent with metric measurements.
       

      And only 15.5 miles if you are competent with Metric to English conversions.

    10. Re:By reef... by quenda · · Score: 2

      The Marine Park is 345,000 square km - the size of Germany!
      I'm sure they can find somewhere suitable.

    11. Re:By reef... by swillden · · Score: 1

      There's a good reason they don't dump a million tonnes of rubble near residential zones.

      Sure they do. There are lots of places where there are landfills right next to residential areas.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    12. Re:By reef... by LordLucless · · Score: 3, Informative

      And 3 million cubic tons of debris won't have impact? Seeing as how it's waste materials and full of toxins, and waters have currents and such, it could potentially do a lot of damage. Yeah yeah, it's dredge materials they are dumping. That means it's full of runoff and shit you surely would not want in your garden.

      It's stuff they dug up from the seabed, which they're dumping onto the seabed. It's silt, sand and clay, and it's processed to remove any incidental toxic matter before it's dumped.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    13. Re:By reef... by spongman · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Given that matter is significantly more mobile in water it's more like dumping a million tons of crap 25 meters from your house. You'd be ok with that, would you?

    14. Re:By reef... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The "dredge" doesn't just magically appear on the bottom of the ocean. It falls down in clouds of material, which affects the water quality for marine life in the area.
      Even when it is in a pile on the floor, it's a very loose pile, easily blown around by currents or storm surges. The coral is already stressed from temperature changes and other issues such as predators. It won't take much to reach a non-recoverable tipping point.

    15. Re:By reef... by Luckyo · · Score: 4, Informative

      I'm getting the feeling that it is you who are unfamiliar with water. Whatever it takes, it dilutes to minuscule particles very quickly. Only solid stuff that does not degrade in salt water quickly such as certain types of plastic gets noticeable, and that just gets stuffed inside one of the ocean's great gyros which are trashed with plastic anyway.

      Otherwise you're going to have to conduct a costly chemical analysis looking for particles to notice it. As an example, a motherload of all dumps was taken in the Baltic after WW2, we're talking chemical weapons, biological weapons, explosives, chemical waste on massive scale. The basin has minimal flow into the ocean. Tdoay it's still clean enough that people can swim in it, it's full of fish that is safe to eat (as much as overfishing allows) and so on.

      And here you're whining about an area size of a Germany in the middle of the biggest ocean on the planet and about other people not having a clue about water? Really?

    16. Re:By reef... by Dan+B. · · Score: 1

      It's actually 25km off the coast, not 25km from the reef. And by that, it means a dump site between the coast and the reef, not the ocean and off the continental shelf.

      The sludge will increase the turbidity of the inner reef waters (cloudiness from the amount of suspended solids) and will carry well beyond the dump site. It's not toxic waste, but it is not pristine white sand either. The real problem though is the volume of the dump; 3 million m3 is a lot of material to spread over the sea floor.

      Here are some slightly more neutral (less left/right winged) views
      http://www.businessinsider.com...

      --
      Dan. -- So what if it's spelt wrong, nobody's perfect
    17. Re:By reef... by viperidaenz · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Could that be why they are dumping at a site where silt normally settles?

    18. Re:By reef... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Deepwater Horizon involved oil which floats, not heavy dredging spoil which by definition does not. Sure, currents move sediment on the ocean floor around, but not much. And bear in mind that the GBR region already has any number of major rivers flowing into it which dump millions of tons of sediment into the area every year; sediment which, moreover, is full of agricultural chemicals and fertilizer. When you see a picture of the GBR it's inevitably of high grade coral surrounded by brilliant aquatic fauna. What you don't see is that 99.99% of the region is not reef, it's just normal continental shelf, an area the size of Germany (as someone else said). The occasional dredging operation or ship hitting the bottom in the GBR region are near irrelevant. They are just high profile trivialities for environmentalists to grasp and use to excite the general public. The real threats to the GBR are global warming and farm runoff.

    19. Re:By reef... by LordLucless · · Score: 2

      It's also about 25km from the reef (the green in this image). It's located at about the midpoint between the port and the reef, at 25km each way.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    20. Re:By reef... by alvinrod · · Score: 4, Informative
      According to the government's own environmental impact report there isn't any anticipated impact. From the report:

      Impact of dredging at the new berth will be very limited as the volume to be dredged is very small, and the duration of work (two weeks) is minimal. Studies at the proposed offshore disposal site also reveal that past disposal has had no discernible long term effects. No significant level of contaminants has been found in the dredging areas, from coal or other material spillage, and dredge spoil is therefore considered suitable for unconfined ocean disposal. Coastal processes do not contribute to silting of the berths or the approach channel.

      It sounds like this isn't the first time they've dumped there and that those prior events have not had any noticeable negative effects and that they've tested what's going to be dumped there to ensure that there aren't any contaminants. It's starting to appear as though this is just a lot of environmentalists throwing a fit for no good reason.

    21. Re:By reef... by Dutchmaan · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "After all, what's just "a little bit more" gonna do..."
      Next time: "After all, what's just "a little bit more" gonna do..."
      Next time: "After all, what's just "a little bit more" gonna do..."
      Next time: "After all, what's just "a little bit more" gonna do..."
      Next time: "After all, what's just "a little bit more" gonna do..."
      Next time: "After all, what's just "a little bit more" gonna do..."

    22. Re:By reef... by LordLucless · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Would you feel 100% comfortable if a coal-fire power plant would be build 25km upwind from your home? And that's not a very fair comparison because water is a lot more dense than air and more than often less than 1km deep.

      Do coal plants blow silt and sand now? This is the main reason all the stink about this annoys me. What's happening is that a few million tonnes of sand and silt are being moved from point A to point B (when point B already consists entirely of sand and silt). And the the Green groups and people like Get Up post images of clownfish and coral reefs, with captions about "DUMPING TOXIC SLUDGE ON THEIR HOME!".

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    23. Re:By reef... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The fact that you use a word like "toxins" as if it has any real meaning shows that you don't have the slightest fucking clue what you're talking about. Maybe you should just shut up and let the smart people handle things.

    24. Re:By reef... by Harlequin80 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Why is this modded insightful?

      It is being sucked up out of the shipping channel and harbour (ie off the ocean floor) and then being transport basically no distance and put back down in the main area silt builds up. Also current flows are AWAY from the reef.

      This will have orders of magnitude less impact than the floods we have do.

    25. Re:By reef... by MrKaos · · Score: 2

      You might not be familiar with water, but things dumped in the water (especially particulate matter like silt) rarely stays where you dump it.

      No, that's not right. Tidal movements in that part of the world are 7-10 METRES, which means a humungous amount of water is moving in those areas - which is why the coral lives there in the first place.

      It's pretty amazing to walk on the sea bed that you were swimming over the day before.

      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
    26. Re:By reef... by Andhesaidtome · · Score: 2

      WTF is a cubic ton? Contrary to what the enviro-warrior propagandists would have you think, this is not an evil coal waste product. It is dredge spoil from the ocean floor, the like of which has been dredged and dumped from every medium/deep water port along the coast. The only reason this is getting airplay is because the dredging is to expand a coal loading port, not a commercial fishing or leisure craft port. They couldn't get enough traction to stop the ships navigating through the reef to they are going after the next softest target.

    27. Re:By reef... by ChunderDownunder · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Or, you know, Americans could just adapt when they come to visit.

      Lots of scary things in Australia - the metric system, driving on the left, dunnies that flush the opposite direction, 240V AC, summer in February etc.

    28. Re:By reef... by dwywit · · Score: 1

      'Taint in the middle of the pacific. Hint: search for "great barrier reef marine park" on google maps.

      It's also a rather fragile ecosystem that's already under pressure - some natural, some man-made.

      OTOH, dredging spoil (mostly mud and sand) is *already* in the water, they're only moving it from the harbours/estuaries further out. There *might* be problem with nutrient load.

      --
      They sentenced me to twenty years of boredom
    29. Re:By reef... by GeoSanDiego · · Score: 1

      Newsflash: The sea floor is spacious. Very very spacious.

    30. Re:By reef... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You do know that logging old-growth forests responsibly is a GOOD thing for the forest.. right?

    31. Re:By reef... by Zibodiz · · Score: 1

      ...a cube measuring 1 ton per side.

      Huh? Methinks you're confusing measurements of weight and length.
      A cubic ton is a relative measurement; it's essentially like saying "40 cubic feet of timber from the average trees in the average forest weighs 1 ton, so instead of weighing all of our timber, we'll just sell it by the cubic foot instead, and call it 1/40th of a ton." It's a sloppy, approximating measurement method.

    32. Re:By reef... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

      The current government wasn't in power when the report in question was written: it dates from 2007. Which parts of the report do you believe to be inaccurate? Feel free to be specific and have references to third party sources.

    33. Re:By reef... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      And only 13.5 miles, if you convert to nautical miles in nautical areas.

    34. Re:By reef... by swillden · · Score: 2

      And those places would be lower socioeconomic areas with all the attendant health problems....

      Not necessarily. I know of one upper-end subdivision (homes in the 500s and up in an area where starter homes are around 120K) that is adjacent to a landfill. From a health perspective, as long as the landfill is managed properly there is no risk. And this particular landfill also takes care to minimize odor, pests, dust and screens the view and noise with a row of trees.

      The expensive subdivision was just recently put in, too. Part of the attraction is that the landfill is expected to close in the next 2-3 years, after which it will be capped and then covered with a golf course. People are paying more for the location because of what it will become.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    35. Re:By reef... by Luckyo · · Score: 1, Troll

      That is certainly the attitude of the modern green movement, which has led it to where it is today - whining about things that have no relevance to green ideology.

    36. Re:By reef... by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Translation: there is no problem whatsoever. The area is about size of Germany. If it could be harmed by movement of earth on the bottom of the ocean, reef would not exist today. Ocean waters move far, far greater amounts of the stuff around every day.

    37. Re:By reef... by Savage-Rabbit · · Score: 1

      You do know that 25 KM is not a long distance, it's only 17 miles if you're not competent with metric measurements.

      And only 15.5 miles if you are competent with Metric to English conversions.

      Arrr... but at sea we use nautical miles, ye clueless landlubber.

      --
      Only to idiots, are orders laws.
      -- Henning von Tresckow
    38. Re:By reef... by jgardner100 · · Score: 1

      And when they dump the 300 million tonnes of silt, a lot of it will float through the water. I believe they have stated that on any day there will be 20% chance that the particles will reach the coral dumping silt on it, all to save money on treating the toxic sludge on land (yes too toxic to be allowed to dump on land without processing.)

    39. Re:By reef... by jgardner100 · · Score: 1

      Sorry, my typo, 3 million tonnes,

    40. Re:By reef... by jgardner100 · · Score: 1

      You have such a nice opinion of how things work here. They actually know the silt will reach the reefs about 20% of the time, Holbourne island is only 8kms from the dumping site and has coral reefs and a turtle breeding ground.

    41. Re:By reef... by TapeCutter · · Score: 5, Informative

      Clear water is essential since coral needs sunlight to survive. You won't get a tropical reef without mangroves, mangroves hold the silt in place at the river mouth and keep the reef water clear. They are so effective as a filter for fine particulate matter that they clean the filthy outflow from the Ganges and provide the crystal clear waters where some spectacular reefs can be found. These people are building the largest coal port in the world, it's a $30 billion project. This site was chosen because it was cheap and convenient, I don't think a few extra bucks to dump it in deep water off the continental shelf is too much to ask given the perceived risk to the tourist and fishing industries that rely on a healthy reef.

      The silt found in the dumping area is not "already in the water", it's on the sea bed. It's only a problem to coral if someone stirs it up to the point it starts blocking sunlight.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    42. Re: By reef... by Rujiel · · Score: 1

      ...No, those are YOUR words. Can you even own up to the absurdity of your own ideas without placing some shapeless, meaningless blame on environmentalists?

    43. Re:By reef... by weilawei · · Score: 1

      If you're scared by those things, you must really be overexaggerating the danger of the wildlife. ;)

    44. Re:By reef... by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      And if the Deepwater Horizon was digging up dredging sludge no one would have noticed as it wouldn't have made it far before sinking.

      Oil floats, sand doesn't. Comparing one to the other is nonsensical.

    45. Re:By reef... by LordLucless · · Score: 1

      Good thing they're processing it before dumping it at sea then, isn't it?

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    46. Re:By reef... by weilawei · · Score: 1

      +1 Informative

    47. Re:By reef... by dwywit · · Score: 2

      Did you mean the dumping ground is the size of germany? No.

      The spoil is a nutrient source, some of which are microscopic particles which won't just drop straight to the ocean floor - currents will send it hither and yon. If it washes over coral, the coral will react. Tropical coral DOESN'T LIKE strong nutrient loads. As another commenter has mentioned coral also doesn't like lack of sunlight - even highly dispersed particulates will reduce the sunlight reaching the coral.

      The sand component will tend to settle quickly, but it might get carried onto living reef - I trust the scientists at GBRMPA to have studied this and account for it.

      You simply can't make broad comments like "the size of germany" and expect to be taken seriously.

      --
      They sentenced me to twenty years of boredom
    48. Re: By reef... by zeigerpuppy · · Score: 2

      Actually, dredge spoil contains fine particles that form a suspension in the water column. They can move a great distance. The main issue here however is the impact of facilitating the burning of more coal. Ocean acidification (from carbon dioxide dissolved/converted to carbonic acid) is a major threat to the reef as coral cannot lay down limestone in acidic waters. The coral has also experienced massive dieback since the 1960s due to rising water temperature, high nutrient sediment from local cane fields and the impact of crown of thorns star fish. Many marine biologists argue that it is already beyond tipping point. Our blind, stupid, climate denying government doesn't seem to believe in the ample evidence. Short sighted politics and crony capitalism is destroying the very resources that our future prosperity is based upon, not very rational economics.

    49. Re:By reef... by Whiney+Mac+Fanboy · · Score: 5, Informative

      As for Tasmania, almost 50% of the entire state is currently world heritage listed.

      Are you sure about that? Closer to 20% it would seem.

      I don't think de-listing a fraction of a percent of that ....

      A fraction of a percent? They're de-listing ~74000 hectares of 1.4 million. Thats closer to 20%.

      ...is going to cause much damage.

      You can't even get basic facts right & you expect people to believe your assessment of what will cause much damage? Even by slashdot standards, you're a fuckwit.

      --
      There are shills on slashdot. Apparently, I'm one of them.
    50. Re:By reef... by Pav · · Score: 4, Informative

      I've just been speaking to a friend of mine who studied marine biology at James Cook University (a world leader in this kind of thing) and is a bit of a fish nerd. There's a reason the reef only starts 30km offshore. Coral is evolved for low nutrient low sediment conditions. Milky water cuts the light, and extra nutrients encourage filimentous algae which basically take over and shade the coral. Even the seagrass beds are very fragile especially at the moment after the natural disasters (floods, cyclones etc...) we've been having lately - the Southern Dugong is almost extinct. This stuff is widely known and care is taken even down to the building site level etc... to control sediment runoff. Apparently at the micro scale we need to worry about this, but at the macro scale it's no worries mate.

    51. Re:By reef... by dwywit · · Score: 1

      You're right, and I wasn't clear about "already in the water". There's a difference between what we're doing to the water (e.g. the soluble fertilizer washing down from the cane farms into the estuary, and the large-scale transfer of natural sediments from the estuary to the reef/continental shelf), and the various solubles and particulates that would wash down anyway without our help, and have been caught by the mangroves for a LONG time.

      We shouldn't be f*cking with the reef's ecosystem at all, but at least this will have some oversight by scientists.

      --
      They sentenced me to twenty years of boredom
    52. Re:By reef... by TapeCutter · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The reason they don't dump tonnes of rubble in residential zones is because the land is more valuable as real estate than a dumping ground, and millions of tonnes of rubble takes up a whole lotta space.

      Sound logic, I'm an Aussie taxpayer and I think a marine park is more valuable as a breeding ground for fish than a private dumping ground for Senator Clive Palmer's unwanted land fill.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    53. Re:By reef... by TapeCutter · · Score: 2

      I don't mind my government creating (discrete) residential dumping grounds that will be repurposed as parks when full, however I do have a problem when they turn existing parks into dumping grounds.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    54. Re:By reef... by Pav · · Score: 4, Informative

      This paper is probably also relevant. It's about crabs from the commercial fishery near Gladstone developing holes in their shells. The conclusion was dredging was exposing anerobic sediments to oxygen releasing copper, arsenic and a bunch of other metals and compounds which had a detrimental effect on sea life.

    55. Re: By reef... by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      In other words, those protesting this don't care whether or not dumping the dredge waste posts any danger to the coral reefs, they are protesting it in order to try to stop the opening of a harbor to import coal. They are merely using their complaints about the dumping as a way to dupe people who do not share their agenda into supporting them. And it appears to have worked.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    56. Re:By reef... by LordLucless · · Score: 1

      "The Tasmania Parks and Wildlife Service and The Tasmania Department of Primary Industries, Parks, Water, and Environment report that the total amount of reserved area in Tasmania is 3,064,500 hectares, which is 45% of the state’s total terrestrial area. Of this, 45% of Tasmania’s forests are also protected within its reserve system."

      http://natureneedshalf.org/tas...

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    57. Re:By reef... by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      The Marine Park is 345,000 square km

      Hmm...three million tons dumped into an area of 345000 km^2...assuming the stuff has a density the same as seawater (it's denser than that, but this assumption gives a worst case analysis)...assuming uniform dispersal over the whole park, and none of the stuff dispersing to elsewhere than the park...

      A layer 9 microns thick over the entire park.

      I fail to see where this could be a problem, since the stuff is denser than seawater, not all of it will disperse in any case, not all of the dispersal is going to reach the reef itself, and it would be thinner than a dust mote if it did....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    58. Re:By reef... by s.petry · · Score: 1

      I did not read anything in TFA claiming they were processing the materials to clean it, care to cite your source? You claim it's only "silt sand and clay" but if that was true why would they have to process it? Biologists have been clamoring about for decades about how bad the impact of runoff is and, and we have huge dead zones near shores because of the toxic materials that end up there and build up there. That seabed near shore that you are trying to claim is just "seabed" is going to be full of petroleum as well as fertilizers because it's the existing port being expanded.

      ps. Good to see that the sock puppet accounts got mod points today.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    59. Re:By reef... by s.petry · · Score: 1

      The build up from fertilizer, human waste, and chemical dumping/spilling, _are_ called toxins and are known to be 'toxic'. All of those things are what accumulate near shorelines, and cause the massive ocean dead zones.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    60. Re:By reef... by dywolf · · Score: 1

      If it could be harmed by movement of earth on the bottom of the ocean, reef would not exist today. Ocean waters move far, far greater amounts of the stuff around every day.

      Just how stupid are you? That's the environment it evolved in. It is by definition already suited to that.
      That in no way implies an ability to deal with an ADDITIONAL 3 million cubic meter of silt.

      You are in fact using Bachmann logic: "increasing carbon dioxide isn't a problem. If we could be harmed by Carbon Dioxide, people would not exist today. There already exists in the air tons and tons of it, and we're fine."

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    61. Re:By reef... by dywolf · · Score: 1

      Who keeps modding this uninformed stupidity "insightful" ??

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    62. Re:By reef... by dywolf · · Score: 1

      No.
      No.
      No.

      It is imposible to overexagerate the animals of australia. In australia, NEARLY EVERYTHING is poisoinous. Poisoinous fish, poisoinous spiders, poisoinous insects/bugs, poisoinous snails, poisoinous jellyfish. I'm surprised the birds and mammals arent poisons to.

      and then there's the snakes. OH THE SNAKES! (why'd it have to be snakes??) over 40 different varieties just of poisonous snakes, and 21 of the 25 most venomous snakes in the world live there.

      Spiders with 1 inch fangs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A...

      Worlds largest and most vicious crocs, commonly ranging over 22ft long, AND known for jumping almost an entire body length out of the water: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...

      Red back spiders (basically, black widow's australian cousin): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R...

      Dugite snakes (cobra family), one of the most potent toxins in an animal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D...

      Blue Ringed Octopus, the most toxic animal in the world, and a nearly painless sting (oh fun): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B...

      Australian Box Jellyfish...giant, dangerous jellyfish that swarms every year...causes painful scars for life: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B...

      Irukandji jellyfish...tiny jellyfish (1inch bell) with really long tentacles (3+ feet), and nearly painless sting...that causes Irukandji syndrome, a rarely fatal condition that usually resolves after several hours, but before it does is essentially the most torturous experience a person can have: severe headache, backache, muscle pains, chest and abdominal pain, nausea and vomiting, sweating, anxiety, hypertension, tachycardia and pulmonary edema, and a "sense of impending doom so strong, that patients lose the will to live, and even beg their doctors to just kill them and get it over with): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I...
      Inlaand Taipan, another cobra relative, again highly toxic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I...

      Australian paralysis tick...yes EVEN THE TICKS ARE POISONOUS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I...

      --
      Letterman: "Can you just go out and play?
      I mean it's dangerous in Australia."
      Worthington: "You're aware of the dangerous animals. We have dugites...which is like one of the most poisonous snakes in the world...and if it bites you, you have 10 seconds...You have redback spiders; same thing, if it bites you, you have 10 seconds."
      Letterman: "So what's a person to do?"
      Worthington: "Pray."
      --
      Australia: Where everything wants us dead, and everything has the capability to make that a reality.
      --
      http://www.cracked.com/funny-2...
      http://www.cracked.com/funny-5...

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    63. Re:By reef... by dywolf · · Score: 1

      somehow i totally forgot the cassowary.....big giant bird with a big giant claw that's highly (homicidally) territorial...

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    64. Re:By reef... by dywolf · · Score: 1

      "not heavy dredging spoil which by definition does not"
      EEEHHH WRONG. it's not heavy dredging spoil.

      its fine particulate matter: sand, silt, and clay. right now it's relatively stable and compacted on the ocean floor. they're gonna scoop it up, and then dump it. once dumped, it doesnt sink to the bottom. it becauses suspended in the water column, where it will take months, even years, for it settle back out to its previous clarity, a clarity the coral needs to survive.

      "And bear in mind that the GBR region already has any number of major rivers flowing into it which dump millions of tons of sediment into the area every year; sediment which, moreover, is full of agricultural chemicals and fertilizer"
      EEEHHH WRONG.

      Coral, such as a coral reef is made of, such as the Great Barrier Reef, does not like sediment. It does not like suspended particulate matter. AND IT DOES NOT LIKE FETILIZER. It HATES nutrients. It's specifially evolved to exist in places that nutrient sparse. it essentially exists in the deserts of the ocean: wide open space, clean complicated clear water, and very little nutrients (fertilizer OR food).

      one thing that helps coral to exist off shore are mangrove swamps. they are very closely linked. A mangrove swamp is one of the best known filters in the natural world, second only to water percolating slowly through rock undergound. it nearly captures the ENTIRE LOAD of sediment and fertilizer at a river's mouth. hence, NO, millions of tons of sediment DO NOT get dumped in the area every year. even so, the coral doesnt establish closer than several miles from shore, cause the load is still too high for it.

      "When you see a picture of the GBR it's inevitably of high grade coral surrounded by brilliant aquatic fauna. What you don't see is that 99.99% of the region is not reef, it's just normal continental shelf, an area the size of Germany (as someone else said). The occasional dredging operation or ship hitting the bottom in the GBR region are near irrelevant."

      EEEHHH WRONG.
      Know why it's so empty? Oh right, that ocean desert thing. That IN NO WAY means you can just dump in the areas that have no coral without consequence. It DOES and WILL affect it. This is not questioned. This is known oceanigraphic fact.

      "They are just high profile trivialities for environmentalists to grasp and use to excite the general public."

      High profile yes, trivial, no. and as opposed to your baseless and blatantly ignorant statements?

      "The real threats to the GBR are global warming and farm runoff."

      Holy crap you got one mostly right. The farm runoff damages mangrove stands, which reduces the filtering efficiency, and the nutrients and sediment that make it through fuel algrae growth and block sunlight harming the coral.

      these are however not the only threats.
      and dumping the GBR is not helpful in anyway, it is at best (and highly unlikely) nuetral, and at worst (and very likely) very bad. there's also the risk of exposing toxic (to the coral, which is very sensitve) chemicals such as copper and arsenic to the water column, which will also harm the coral. coral takes a long time to grow and establish, but can be decimated very quickly.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    65. Re:By reef... by volmtech · · Score: 1

      The Great Barrier Reef is the world's largest coral reef system composed of over 2,900 individual reefs and 900 islands stretching for over 2,600 kilometres over an area of approximately 344,400 square kilometres

      That is twice the area of my state of Florida. They can't have just a tiny bit to pile their sand on.

    66. Re:By reef... by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Because explosive bombs equal marine pollution that kills fishlife. Hey, we have these bombs all over the place in Europe, and it's one of the big killers of digging workers in Germany for example. Shall we start calling German soil "polluted" and victims of those bombs "victims of pollution"?

    67. Re: By reef... by Luckyo · · Score: 1, Troll

      Easily. I've seen the green movement fifteen years ago, and I've seen it today. Very different animals. Back then they fought for difficult but necessary causes - stopping acid rain, getting NOx/SO2 emission quotas, establishing wildlife sanctuaries.

      Now that they won almost all of it, they found themselves with a lot of power, and only increasingly difficult to explain to the public - kind of causes. So instead they turned to things like these: "oh my god, they are taking seabed soil, lifting it to make harbour, moving it to a different spot in the ocean and putting it back on the ocean floor, this is DUMPING OF WASTE".

      See I'm old enough to remember what "dumping of waste" actually meant back when green movement was legitimate. They would literally picked the current green movement for obvious misuse of their terminology which destroyed the value of their cause.

    68. Re: By reef... by Luckyo · · Score: 1, Troll

      And that is why current green movement is shit. Reset your blind rage and read the actual story. They fucked with you by telling you it's "waste dumping".

      What actually happens is that ocean soil is dug up to make room for harbour, and they need some place to put it back down on ocean floor. This soil is basically mud and rocks, and they are putting it back down in the spot with same mud and rocks.

      So I'm sorry, but I'm the one actually looking at the cause, and you are the useful idiot that sees words "dumping waste" and immediately assigns parallels with actual waste dumping. And you are the type of person that modern green movement feeds these bullshit lines to. Because you don't read what is actually happening - you just read "waste dumping" and you start foaming at mouth in rage and call everyone who points out the facts of the matter that are in direct conflict with the PR line "useful idiots" without ever bothering to fact check.

      Which is why this bullshit feeding continues. Thanks for enabling it!

    69. Re:By reef... by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      And you expect to be taken seriously when you do not even bother to read the actual article? They are not dropping it on the coral at all. They are doing the standard dredging procedure, which is to lift the soil, move it to the place where it's going to be planted back and spread it across the area. This reduces any effect on nutrient load, and this will occur tens of kilometers away from nearest point of the coral presence.

      Really, stop being the useful idiot for these people. Demand that they focus on real and actually difficult issues instead.

    70. Re:By reef... by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Smart enough to understand math and history of dredging unlike you. The mud and rocks will be spread fairly evenly along large surface at target area, as is typically done to avoid the main issue when moving soil in the ocean, nutrient loads.

    71. Re:By reef... by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      I have something far more relevant for you then, and a real green cause (same meaning it had before when green movement was a force for good in this world, rather than a force for extracting donation money from idiots) to fight for instead of this idiocy.

      Shipping. It needs to be dramatically changed.

      Ships, as they move around the world bring everything with them to new habitats. New flora and fauna, including extremely harmful invasive species, diseases, micro-organisms that local flora has no way to compete against and so on. It has happened everywhere where shipping went, to the point where we started using extremely toxic paints on the larger ships to ensure that nothing near them lives. Unfortunately that also poisoned the wildlife, so much of it is not in use any more.

      We need to push shipping companies to focus development on the kinds of paints for ships that would repel most of the transferring ability while not being poisonous to everything in large radius as well. We also need more stringent rules for bilge water handling for the same reason, as many species travel in that.

      Start with that. This is a process that is known to have wiped out entire ecosystems and is actively continuing to do so, not just "maybe caused crabs in immediate vicinity develop holes in their shells that may be also caused by a disease, micro-organisms or something else entirely".

      But modern green movement largely doesn't care beyond a few mandatory PR releases. Because shipping corporations are giants, and modern green movement goes to extremes to avoid messing with difficult causes that need complex explanation to the public, such as the cause-effect between shipping and marine life losses it causes. Not to mention many people like their cheap goods from China, which constraints on shipping would make much more expensive and in some cases downright unviable.

      Instead they use terms like "waste dumping" to describe movement of soil, because that is easy - and people all over this slashdot story which are supposed to be smarter and more willing to fact check before raging are comparing it to things like Deepwater Horizon leak!

    72. Re:By reef... by LordLucless · · Score: 1

      Yay, more false analogies. Silt isn't asbestos, neither is it radioactive waste, nor is it fossil fuel emissions, as in some other posts analogies. It's dirt. They're moving dirt from one patch of dirt, to another patch of dirt.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    73. Re:By reef... by LordLucless · · Score: 1

      "The dredge spoils bound for the ocean will be tested before they are dumped to ensure they are safe. GBRMPA says previous testing has already shown there are no identified contaminants in the sediments to be dredged and dumped from Abbot Point."

      http://www.theaustralian.com.a...

      So, I wasn't quite right, it's not being processed to remove toxic material, it's being tested to ensure there isn't any. Slight difference, same end result.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    74. Re:By reef... by mdielmann · · Score: 1

      You do know that 25 KM is not a long distance, it's only 17 miles if you're not competent with metric measurements.

      And only 15.5 miles if you are competent with Metric to English conversions.

      I really think it's time we stopped picking on NASA engineers.

      --
      Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
    75. Re:By reef... by s.petry · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the citations, I wish they gave details on what they were testing for but we can hope they get it right. Considering that thousands of scientists are against this and not just the "eco-wacko" people I think there is more to the story. Considering that doing things for money is a normal operation, it's always wise to be suspicious.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    76. Re:By reef... by IwantToKeepAnon · · Score: 1

      Bury your head in the sand, much?

      --
      "Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way." -- Anna Karenina by Leo Tolstoy
    77. Re:By reef... by Pav · · Score: 1

      Not REALLY concerned about crabs here... I should have spelt it out, but although copper is a real problem for sea life the bioavailable lead, cadmium, aluminium and arsenic isn't much good for seafood lovers like me. It wasn't just in the crabs either.

    78. Re:By reef... by Pav · · Score: 1

      About 20 years ago it was noticed that many of these reefs were dying back. An important cause? Increased sediment discharge from those same rivers you were talking about... apparently clearing vegetation, runoff from cities and agriculture was doing the damage. My brother is a builder and it's law that he take great care about sediment control from his building sites, as is the case with many other sediment generating activities. This is not news in North Queensland. The prospect of lead, mercury, cadmium etc... in seafood isn't exciting either. Apparently trace elements in anaerobic sediments become bioavailable after they're dredged up then get concentrated up the food chain. This happened during the 80's a few hundred kilometres south in Gladstone and closed a fishery. (I've attached a paper documenting this elsewhere in this thread).

    79. Re:By reef... by Pav · · Score: 1

      ack! JCU is a world leader... not my friend (in case the language was ambiguous).

    80. Re:By reef... by TranquilVoid · · Score: 1

      You know, social media, Get Up and Change.org have probably done more to tip me toward conservatism than anything else (I still consider myself somewhat leftish). People mindlessly click and share all manner of misleading hype simply because it aligns with their world view or the set of beliefs that they associate with their political 'team'.

      That said, your analysis is not perfectly fair either. Silt is being moved from point A to point B, but the issue is that it is no longer stably compacted but will suspend in the water and become susceptible to long-range movement. I have no idea how significant this will be.

    81. Re:By reef... by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Shouldn't you start worrying about mercury first, second and third and everything else a distant twentieth or so, or is seafood pollution down under dramatically different from what we see here in Nordics? Because if I recall my biology lessons correctly, the main poison that does in fact concentrate up the in food chain is mercury.

    82. Re:By reef... by Pav · · Score: 1

      There's mercury. From the paper: "4) Lead, Manganese, Mercury and Cadmium All four of these elements were higher in the Gladstone mud crab hepatopanceas tissues compared to the reference site. Indicating that Gladstone crabs were exposed to a higher total body burden of metals/metalloids."

    83. Re:By reef... by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      I don't think you understand. Mercury is the main environmental toxin that concentrates higher in food chain (i.e. higher level predators like sharks or humans). As a result, unless you're dealing with eating produce from area with massive local leak of a Ni-Cd battery plant or something similar, by the time things like cadmium concentrate sufficiently in you to become harmful, you're likely going to be dying from acute mercury poisoning. That's why while lower level predators like crabs are exposed to variety of environmental load, the mercury is counted as the main limiter on how much of them a human can eat.

    84. Re:By reef... by Pav · · Score: 1

      OK, so I should be worried about the mercury and not the lead, cadmium etc... Got it.

    85. Re:By reef... by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      Problem with mercury, specifically methyl mercury present in fish is that it naturally accumulates in the oceans as we burn coal, in addition to other waste sources not to mention volcanic activity which is also a major contributor. Also unlike many other heavy metals, it cannot be excreted from the body through metabolism at any reasonable rate once it becomes methyl mercury in fish. As a result it accumulates in the food chain.

      The biggest problem for humans with methyl mercury, is that it's one of the few chemicals which can pass through blood-brain barrier, oxidise and then remain there for years.

      Most other heavy metals you mentioned do not exhibit this behaviour. Cadmium for example, while extremely toxic does not accumulate, absorbs much worse than methyl mercury and can be excreted through both fecal and urinary paths at a reasonable rate. There's also the fact that a very large portion of population is in fact exposed to a significant dosage of cadmium on daily basis - smokers. If cadmium behaved like mercury, it would quickly accumulate and kill the smoker. Instead it gets pushed through bloodstream into liver and kidneys and excreted out of the body, rendering it reasonably harmless overall in comparison to other compounds in cigarette smoke, as evidenced by smokers generally being harmed by substances other than cadmium from their smoking habit.

  3. come one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    It's dredge waste, not spent fuel rods.
    They are moving rocks from one part of the sea bed to another part of the seabed.

    1. Re:come one by Pav · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It might surprise you. Dredging like this basically closed the Gladstone mudcrab and barramundi fishery - the anerobic sediments contain trace elements which suddenly became bioavailable when exposed to oxygen. They were finding lesions on crab shells and fish from being exposed to copper, mercury, arsenic, aluminium, lead etc... I posted a link to a paper elsewhere in this thread.

    2. Re:come one by dywolf · · Score: 1

      They are moving sand, silt, clay, and other fine particulate matter from one part of the sea bed to another part of the sea, where it will become suspended in the water column, traveling far and wide across the sea for weeks, months, even years, before completely settling back out, and the clarity returns to normal levels the coral depends on to recieve the sunlight it needs to thrive.

      Fixed that for you.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    3. Re:come one by dywolf · · Score: 1

      mod this guy up

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
  4. WWF by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    'This is a sad day for the reef and anyone who cares about its future,' said WWF Great Barrier Reef campaigner Richard Leck

    He then proceeded to hit Paul Hogan with a steel folding chair and pinned him.

  5. As an Australian, by mjwx · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I'd like to say I'm categorically not OK with dumping waste here.

    Sadly the state and federal governments are completely ignoring what the majority of the people want.

    --
    Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    1. Re:As an Australian, by coolsnowmen · · Score: 3, Interesting

      As an average American, I understand.

    2. Re:As an Australian, by buswolley · · Score: 1

      Undoing the troll mod I accidentally applied

      --

      A Good Troll is better than a Bad Human.

    3. Re:As an Australian, by mjwx · · Score: 3, Informative

      Since the purpose of the dredging operation is to move the shit from one spot on the floor of the ocean to another, in its entirety, it is NOT "waste".

      No, the purpose of the dredging operation is to expand the coal port at Abbott Point.

      The problem is that they're ignoring legitimate environmental concerns (and to the barrier reef, silt is waste) for financial convenience because it would cost more to dump it somewhere else that isn't right next a fragile ecosystem.

      They are using scare words to get you whipped into a righteous frenzy

      You are attempting to oversimplify things because you cant understand the real concerns here.

      You are also attempting to prevent legitimate rebuttals of your point by attacking the person and using thought terminating cliches because your point isn't strong enough to stand on it's own merits.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    4. Re:As an Australian, by jonwil · · Score: 1

      Not surprising considering the state government has the largest majority in the history of Queensland and thinks they can do whatever they like and the federal government has been breaking promises left and right (on everything from education to welfare to tax reform to broadband) and has an environmental policy that is essentially "give the big end of town whatever they want and to hell with the environment"

    5. Re:As an Australian, by Harlequin80 · · Score: 1

      As an Australian with some ability to read and the knowledge that this "waste" is sand sucked up from the seabed a short distance away I am absolutely ok with them making navigation channels and harbours safer for really really big ships full of fuel oil, gas, coal and other shit that I REALLY REALLY don't want to end up on the reef.

    6. Re:As an Australian, by mjwx · · Score: 3, Interesting

      As an Australian with some ability to read and the knowledge that this "waste" is sand sucked up from the seabed a short distance away

      As an Australian with quite an ability to read, the ability to think and quite a bit of understanding on the subject, the "waste" is called silt and being quite fine (extremely fine sand) tends to travel quite a distance when dumped... This is why it cant be dumped closer to Abbott point, because it'll go straight back into the channel they were dredging.

      So dumping it on the great barrier reef is easier as transporting it to a safe dumping zone is expensive.

      You seem to think it's OK because it's sand, this is where your understanding of the subject ends, coral you see doesn't do too well when sand gets dumped on it and 25 KM away is definitely not far enough to ensure the silt does not reach the reef. Realistically the expansion at Abbott point should never have been approved.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    7. Re:As an Australian, by GumphMaster · · Score: 1

      The issue here is that the dredge material, taken entirely from an already reserved port area, is to be be dumped in the marine equivalent of a national park. Imagine the reaction if a private mining concern was granted permission to dump their spoil, which after all is just rock moved from somewhere else, on top of Ol' Faithful in Yellowstone or in a Yosemite lake (a layer 2'6" thick over 1.5 Sq miles). How should/would the American people take that?

      The GBRMPA is hamstrung by the ideology of both involved layers of government, to whom nature has no value unless you cut it down or dig it up and ship it off. On recent government performance the alternative would be to refuse permission and have the authority dissolved or the board replaced with more pliable members. Realistically the GBRMPA were unable to reach any other decision and have chosen the least shitty option available to them, preferring to lose this battle in order to continue to do good elsewhere.

      --
      Patent litigation: A doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction... in which everyone seems willing to push the button
    8. Re:As an Australian, by dywolf · · Score: 1

      dredging is commercially required for many things. ok fine. no problem there.

      But then WHY must it be dumped on the most ecologically sensitive spot in the big wide open ocean?

      go another several miles out and dump it in the deep ocean, where there is no coral, and the currents lead away from the tidal pull. process it with clinker and cement into brinks that wont stay suspended. it's not like they're hurtin for space or options.

      so why THAT particular spot, where it can do the most harm?
      its almost as if its willful intent.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    9. Re:As an Australian, by Harlequin80 · · Score: 1

      Because it isn't an ecologically sensitive spot. The dumping location is in a low current location where there is natural build up of silt. While there will definitely be silt plumes when this is deposited, because it is a low current area it won't travel far and then once on the bottom won't go anywhere else.

      There isn't a need to process it into blocks, it will settle very rapidly. We are talking about a material that is already sitting on the ocean bed and subject to more current and wave action than it will be once moved. The lighter, highly mobile material has already been removed by nature. Then it will be treated to remove any chemicals that may have come from run-off or commercial activites in the harbour.

      Finally as for taking it to deep sea there are two major reasons. The first is you would need much much larger ships to do the work and the amount of direct pollution made by the process would go up. The second is that you are operating in reef conditions, which mean no matter what there is the risk of accidents. The further you make the boats travel, the larger they are, and the further they go the higher the risk of an accident which could see significant amounts of silt being deposited where you really don't want it and also see an uncontrolled dumping of oil. A small oil spill from a holed fuel tank on one of these ships is immediately orders of magnitude worse than the risks from silt.

      It's one of the main reasons for doing this project in the first instance. make the harbour and the channels safer.

    10. Re:As an Australian, by dywolf · · Score: 1

      sorry, but this has been covered already in higher threads and you are wrong on almost all points.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
  6. Take Out the Trash Day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    And like most other pronouncements made by a government authority which are expected to attract negative publicity, this decision was made and released on a Friday afternoon.

    Had it been something for which the government authority wanted maximum publicity, they would have made the announcement at the start of the week. (Sunday. Monday.)

    I hate it when government departments work the news cycle ... it feels dirty.

  7. Ashamed... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    to call myself Australian since the LIberal government takeover. They're doing the complete opposite to everything I want and believe in. Who wants to trade citizenship? Preferably a Canadian. I DID NOT VOTE FOR THIS DICKS!!!!

    1. Re:Ashamed... by ushere · · Score: 2

      +1 this liberal government is a disgrace to democracy, but then again, what conservative government isn't?

    2. Re:Ashamed... by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      I think it's pretty good. The Aussie dollar is dropping, makes buying stuff from there cheaper.

  8. Re:Apology by neonmonk · · Score: 1

    *didn't* vote for.

    If you voted for Tony Abbott you neglected to do any research at all into the man. You failed your due diligence as a member of a democracy.

  9. near religious posturing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Could both sides please put their research/models on the impacts to the reef out publicly and allow an independent/international to verify? Over the Christmas break I happened to talk to an environmental scientist that works on such reports for that region of the reef. They told me that as far as they could see in the numbers the risks to the reef were non-existent and that certain environmental groups basically threatened that unless the report said what they wanted it to say that they would cause a stink that would ruin reputations and jobs of individuals. The mainstream media has certainly jumped on the hysteria (as they usually do). I don't know who is right but can we put the science - the numbers and models to the front of the discussion rather than outrage over what people with vested interests (on both sides) tell us what to think via the media.

  10. What? by gimmeataco · · Score: 1

    I understand what dredging is, but what is the composition of dredge waste? Non-native soil/rocks/sand? Percentages of whatever they're doing?

    1. Re:What? by Luckyo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Pretty much rock, soil and similar things. The stuff you dig up so you can mine. Whatever is there. It's harmless beyond crushing whatever is on the seabed. They're not dumping it over the reef itself, so this is a non-issue.

      This entire thing is a great microcosm of what is wrong with green movement today. Instead of fighting for worthy, difficult causes they pick easy causes that have little to no impact of environment but is easy to sell to tabloid-reading mob to foam at. Causes which fall apart when you actually examine them in depth.

    2. Re: What? by O('_')O_Bush · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yep, it is called a moral panic. In Australia, it worked for guns a few decades ago, and it is still working today with silly things like this or restrictions on porn of small breasted women, etc.

      Fool me once, shame on me, fool me constantly, I must be Australian.

      --
      while(1) attack(People.Sandy);
    3. Re:What? by Tailhook · · Score: 2

      stuff you dig up so you can mine

      The word dredging usually denotes removal of sea bed, as opposed to mining. Indeed this story is about dredging to make a port deep enough for larger freighters.

      Other than that you're right; this isn't chemical waste or radio-active waste or something. It's rock and sand. Pipe it to a new location and it will settle and have little to no impact. The title, transcribed right from the Discovery story, `...Dumping Dredge Waste In Barrier Reef...' contains at least two lies ("waste" and "in") and probably a third with the "dump" characterization. This operation will be closely observed and the rock and sand will be settled carefully wherever it ends up.

      --
      Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
    4. Re:What? by Demonantis · · Score: 2

      Its dredge from a coal port. Dollars to donuts all the coal doesn't make it on the ship everytime.

    5. Re:What? by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      The stuff they dig up from the sea floor, nothing else.

    6. Re:What? by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      So wait, this isn't even earth from the ground, it's earth from the seabed that they are... returning to seabed at another location?

      Green movement has taken "absurd" to the new heights if this is true.

    7. Re:What? by Tailhook · · Score: 1

      it's earth from the seabed that they are... returning to seabed at another location?

      If you can believe the linked story, yes. They are dredging material from a port to increase the clearance for freighters. From the story:

      It will see Adani dredge 3 million cubic meters of material from the seabed to allow freighters to dock at the port in Abbot Point

      The material will moved to another point on the sea bed.

      The dredging will stir up the sea bed and there will be measurable effects. However, dredging is not some new phenomenon we just started doing last week on behalf off Big Oil, or whichever boogeyman to which this will be attributed. Dredging takes place in all sorts of places, some very sensitive to contamination, a we know how to mitigate the effects. Modern dredging equipment need not create thick clouds of particulate, and given the level of scrutiny that will be involved here you can bet it won't.

      The only consequence will be a temporary and small increase in the level of particulate in the area. The coral is entirely capable of dealing with this; shedding dust and particulates is something Coral must deal with naturally and have evolved mechanisms to do so. All the dredgers must do is keep the diffusion of particulate to a reasonably low level and there won't be a problem.

      This is hysteria, deliberately fomented with words like "waste" and "dump" to incite our burgeoning class of ignorant malcontents to outrage.

      --
      Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
    8. Re:What? by dywolf · · Score: 1

      you need to stop talking.
      you are compeltely and totally ignorant without the first hint of a clue of what you are spouting.
      if BS were worth money, you would be the Comstock Lode of BS.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    9. Re:What? by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      What exactly are they dredging up then? Do share, because nothing so far suggested that they are dredging anything unusual in that harbour.

      Or are you one of the green movement zealots that, when confronted with situation where their ideology and facts are at odds, start attacking the messenger?

  11. Re:Apology by quenda · · Score: 1

    You don't get to vote for him at all, unless you lived in his electorate, which is a safe seat anyway.
    It is the inner party who chooses the PM. Sounds bad, but do you really want a direct-election system like the US?
    I think its kind of nice when the government can actually pass laws.

  12. The Australian Government by PC_THE_GREAT · · Score: 2

    I guess the Australian Government also joined the list of governments who knows that the people can't do shit about anything.

  13. Re:Apology by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

    If you don't want a party leader to be prime minister, don't vote for the party.

  14. Re:Apology by quenda · · Score: 1

    If you don't want a party leader to be prime minister, don't vote for the party.

    You are far more likely to affect the result in your local seat than in the nation.
    Would you vote for Craig Thomson because you dislike Abbott?

  15. Re:Apology by neonmonk · · Score: 1

    My comment didn't happen in a vacuum, it's a reply. Read the reply, get the context. Idiot.

  16. Re:Apology by weilawei · · Score: 1
    Which US are you referring to? From Wikipedia:

    The election of the President and the Vice President of the United States is an indirect vote in which citizens cast ballots for a slate of members of the U.S. Electoral College; these electors in turn directly elect the President and Vice President.

    Emphasis mine.

  17. Re:Apology by dbIII · · Score: 1

    If you voted for Tony Abbott you neglected to do any research at all into the man

    Are you suggesting that a Giant Groper does not have the interests of the reef at heart :)

    For those that missed the reference, they didn't call him the "Mad Monk" because he prayed every now and again. He got that nickname by behaving a bit like Rasputin. Wild doesn't cover it. Up before the Judge twice does. If it wasn't for powerful connections he'd be on a sex offenders register.

  18. And what about what the whole thing is for? by woodycat · · Score: 2

    Abbot Point is about exporting massive amounts of coal. The Abbott Government is the most anti-environmental I have seen in my life of 62 years. He himself is a climate change skeptic and he was elected on a platform of repealing the Carbon Tax. We are only in the first year of this vandals office. After 3 years he will have done untold damage and the apathetic voters will probably vote him in again. We love economic growth and we don't want the party to end. Environmental stuff is just a party spoiler. I'm ashamed of so much that is going on here.

    1. Re:And what about what the whole thing is for? by Beyond_GoodandEvil · · Score: 1

      After 3 years he will have done untold damage and the apathetic voters will probably vote him in again. We love economic growth and we don't want the party to end. Environmental stuff is just a party spoiler. I'm ashamed of so much that is going on here.
      Man, doesn't democracy suck? Esp. when the vast majority doesn't agree w/ your chicken little sky is falling alarmism?

      --
      I laughed at the weak who considered themselves good because they lacked claws.
    2. Re:And what about what the whole thing is for? by omnichad · · Score: 1

      Is there really some reason to think that a large percentage of people believing something makes it correct? Democracy is good, but this is by far its greatest weakness.

  19. Re:Apology by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

    I wouldn't vote, since I'm not Australian.

    If I didn't want any of the local candidates representing me, I wouldn't vote for any.
    You don't have to tick all the boxes on the voting paper, you just need to be registered to vote.

  20. They are taking it to a 'safe dumping zone'. by robbak · · Score: 3, Insightful

    They have chosen a safe dumping zone where the movement of silt won't cause problems. But the entire east coast of Queensland, however, is the marine park, so all the safe dumping zones are inside the 'park'. So that means that GBRMPA has to check the details and make sure that what the engineers have worked out is a safe dumping zone is actually one, and that the currents won't take large quantities of fine silt onto reefs. They have done so, worked out that it is, and the world moves on.

    Now whether anyone should be digging up coal and shipping it to places where it will be burnt is another matter. But the placement of the dredge spoil is simple engineering.

    --
    Prediction for end of Universe #42: Fencepost error in Quantum_bogosort.cpp
  21. Storm in a teacup. by thatkid_2002 · · Score: 3, Informative

    The waste is just sand and a bit of mud (not toxic at all) and they are *not* dumping it on the reef. They are dumping it in a barren stretch of sand that doesn't even have any seagrass or notable life. It is far enough away from the actual reef to not be an issue and they have a maximum amount per year they can dump and a window that they are allowed to do it in (outside of spawning season).

    If environmentalists want to be taken seriously they should not cry wolf.

    1. Re:Storm in a teacup. by dywolf · · Score: 1

      this thread is not over 200 comments in size, many of which have already dealth with the exact things you mentioned, and why they are WRONG.
      you are wrong, and worse you are lazy for not even bothering to read before chiming in with the SAME wrong fact and illogic that have already been dismissed as ignorant. you are willfully ignorant.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    2. Re:Storm in a teacup. by thatkid_2002 · · Score: 1

      Back when I replied, there were no such comments saying why I was wrong. No need to go set me as a foe because you have your panties in a knot. I was commenting based on the facts that I had, which came from an official source not linked to the article. I am not even asserting my opinion as some sort of infallible religious belief.

      Maybe if you weren't so abrasive you'd be a more convincing evangelist for whatever cause you have.

  22. No, tides at Bowen are much lower. by robbak · · Score: 2

    You've got your location wrong. The tidal range at Abbot Point is less than 4 meters.

    http://www.bom.gov.au/oceanogr...

    --
    Prediction for end of Universe #42: Fencepost error in Quantum_bogosort.cpp
    1. Re:No, tides at Bowen are much lower. by MrKaos · · Score: 1

      You've got your location wrong. The tidal range at Abbot Point is less than 4 meters.

      http://www.bom.gov.au/oceanogr...

      I should have specified that I mean 1000Kms north and it was from memory. I don't see that they would be much more than you say - thanks for the info.

      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
  23. Clive Palmer by TapeCutter · · Score: 5, Informative
    The balance of power in the senate is unclear after the recent election, but "billionaire miner" and newly minted federal Senator, Clive Palmer has collected a few oddball independent senators under his "PUP" party banner. Their oddball nature is what makes the balance uncertain, also AFAIK there is nothing in writing, it's been all press talks where Palmer did most of the talking. However, what is clear is that if the oddballs remain loyal to Palmer, then Palmer holds all the cards. In essence he will have the "umpire" vote whenever the major parties disagree.

    Now here's the unsurprising news about the money trail - The project we are discussing is a joint venture between "mining magnates" Gina Reinhart, and you guessed it, Senator Clive Palmer.

    I'm sure they can find somewhere suitable.

    Yes, and that place is the open ocean beyond the reef or as clean landfill, but "doing the right thing" would mean Clive and Gina (world's richest woman) would have to spend the money they thought they could save by socialising the risks involved.

    At the end of the day it's really quite simple, parks are not created for use as cheap landfill sites for the mining industry, why such an application would even be considered is beyond me. Worse still if the government were to reverse the decision, they will probably be sued for the extra costs and several million mugs like me will end up paying their costs anyway.

    --
    And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
  24. Re:Apology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    if you were Australian, you'd know that we don't tick boxes when voting, we number them.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_system_of_Australia#Preferential_voting

  25. Re:I used to think like you by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 2

    There is so much uranium already present in seawater, there since millions of years, that if the market price of U were to increase 10x it would be profitable to extract it for human use. So what effect is that puff of Fukushima particles going to have around the world?

  26. Irukandji syndrome...holy shit! by swb · · Score: 1

    I'm surprised they don't just induce a coma as a treatment.

  27. Re:I used to think like you by Luckyo · · Score: 1

    Yes, they "impacted" it.

    Now put your big boy pants on, stop reading sensationalist bullshit and read on what impact those concentrations actually have. Because the answer is there. None. We needed the most modern of the modern equipment to find those few atoms of cesium 137, which is what they test for because it's the one compound that is not naturally found in seawater, and they found a few atoms in a cubic meter.

    To all life on this planet that has to deal with radioactive potassium in its cells which is required to sustain life, this concentration is not something they will ever notice.

  28. Re:OK, so why not keep it there? by Luckyo · · Score: 1

    Harbour. Big ships need to sail in and out. Dredging is the standard procedure ever since humanity started building ships bigger than dinghy.

    There are no shallow water harbours at barrier reef. As a result, it's not inconvenient to move the soil there.

  29. News for Nerds? by gatzke · · Score: 1

    How is this technology related?

    It appears to just be click spam posted during Australian daytime fishing for hits.

    Keep looking for that new low, /.

  30. Payback by Occams · · Score: 1

    This ia sad reflection of the lack of understanding of the new government on environmental issues. For them, rewarding their mates and campaign donors in big business is more important than anything else.

    --
    Heavy is the head that wears the tinfoil hat.