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Is the Tesla Model S Pedal Placement A Safety Hazard?
cartechboy (2660665) writes "When things go wrong with the Tesla Model S electric car, its very loyal--and opinionated--owners usually speak up. And that's just what David Noland has done. An incident in which his Model S didn't stop when he pressed the brake pedal scared him--and got him investigating. He measured pedal spacing on 22 different new cars at dealers--and his analysis suggests that the Tesla pedal setup may be causing what aviation analysts call a 'design-induced pilot error'. And pedal design, as Toyota just learned to the tune of $1.2 billion, is very important indeed in preventing accidents."
Size 13 winter boots. Brake pedal and gas aren't "as far" apart as other cars.
User Error != Manufacturer Defect
Hey look, some idiot hit the gas pedal instead of the brake pedal and it's "news" because it was a Tesla.
And yet only one idiot has this problem.
In the toyota case lots of people were having problems. Not just one with a tape measure and an axe to grind because he made a foolish mistake.
Can't make it so that double pedaling is automatically assumed brake-only since that would make hill starts impossible, but I don't see why it couldn't be programmed (since its throttle by wire anyway) to only allow double pedaling at a complete stop.
It needs a big red shiny button on the dash! It'll simultaneously apply the brakes, eject the battery pack, contact your insurance agent to file a claim, call your lawyer to sue Tesla and deploy the fire extinguishers. Not necessarily in that order.
Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
No.
Guy cannot drive and trashes expensive car, blames manufacturer.
News at 11.
PS: Apparently, "The Model S accelerator pedal is disabled if you press the accelerator pedal and brake pedal simultaneously."
Is this the same bullshit that almost made Audi pull out of the US? It looks like it.
"I use a Mac because I'm just better than you are."
Moving the pedals farther apart and with more vertical separation may make it harder to quickly switch from the accelerator to the brake pedal, causing more accidents than the few prevented by the people with size 13 feet wearing large boots. Plus, with a large vertical separating, the big footed guy might find his foot trapped under the brake pedal when trying to quickly shift over.
I think it's going to take a little more research than one man's anecdote to determine if it's a problem.
The one pedal to do braking and accelarating is already invented a dozen times. it is faster and stops this kind of error.
It is just that car owners are far to conservative to make this a succes.
like.
http://static.autoblog.nl/imag...
Toyota's fine was not just about sticking pedals (and initially making deceptive statements about the safety of those pedals). Toyota's fine was in part for claiming that sticking pedals were the sole cause of unintended acceleration when in fact multiple defects in Toyota’s engine software directly caused at least one (decided by a jury) other crash.
An Update on Toyota and Unintended Acceleration Barr Code
U.S. Fines Toyota $1.2 Billion but Defers Criminal Prosecution Over Vehicle Safety Deceit - IEEE Spectrum
This is an important safety (and technology) issue that has flown mostly under the radar. I believe that is in part because journalists and the public believe they got their answer years ago, when in fact new evidence, expert testimony, and court verdicts have come to light. I think the issue is important enough that this misconception should be corrected whenever it's reported.
My opinion, not my employer's.
You won't be able to heel-toe anymore though, as if that's something a Tesla driver ever needs to do.
Given the lack of gears, I'm going to say confidently that they do not need to heel-toe.
Is 1563649 a prime number?
no automatic ever required heel-toe. The only reason to use both pedals in an auto (one on each pedal, no need to use one foot on both) is to spool up the turbo. But there's never a gain in using both in an electric automatic with yaw-control and traction control.
Learn to love Alaska
The worst pedal arrangement I've ever seen was in a manual transmission Mini Cooper S. That floorboard was designed for a goddamn stick-man. Seriously, I'm not a very big dude, and even I had trouble heel-toeing to the brake pedal without accidentally catching the edge of the clutch pedal.
Long story short, unless Tesla outsourced the pedal design to Mini, it could be worse.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Given that it is all drive by wire, I don't see why it couldn't be adjustable to foot size...
Hmm, the humour and sarcasm seem to have been be lost on you.
I just went from an Rx-8 to a Mini, both 6-spd manual boxes.
I find myself stepping on my clutch foot with my brake foot. That didn't happen with the 8. Disconcerting, to say the least.
I'm getting better after a month (2000 miles), but that does tell me there are differences between the two cars that my muscle memory is trying to overcome.
I'm not blaming the car, I'm changing how I drive.
Maybe that's what's going on here, except they're not changing how they drive?
The "Civilized World" jumped the shark ca. 1973.
The guy did not actually recommend what you just said. He suggested a software fix where if brake and gas are both pressed, the brake would over-ride the gas pedal. So brake would always stop the car independent of whether the gas pedal was pressed.
According to the comments section, it already works that way. Also, if you look at the pictures of the pedals, the brake pedal area is huge compared to the gas pedal area. While I personally like a long gas pedal hinged at the bottom, compared to a small square one, it's pretty clear his heel was too far right for braking. He probably needs to adjust his seat forward to increase his foot rotation.
When you press a pedal and don't get the expected results, it's most likely the wrong pedal.
Actually it is easy to do if you are wearing work boots. Thankfully it's the usually the opposite...pressing the brake didn't make the car go.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
I thought the biggest failure in pedal placement on the Tesla was placing them in a $75,000 car.
So there was a problem with the driver in your case as well then?
In my 20 years of driving many different cars, this has never happened to me. Not once. And I have size 15 feet, and regularly wear combat boots. The fact that you are saying you had the exact same experience on the exact same car - how can that NOT be a design flaw?
Your anecdote exactly proves his point! Unless you are calling yourself the problem. Do you really love tesla so much you would rather blame yourself?
As a potential lottery winner, I totally support tax cuts for the wealthy
but the author actually did his homework and seems pretty reasonable. Wouldn't kill Tesla to put a little more space between the pedals in the future. Retrofitting would be a nightmare, but hardly seems necessary.
Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
Is this the same bullshit that almost made Audi pull out of the US? It looks like it.
The bullshit was Audi blaming the customers for confusing the pedals. The fault was elsewhere. I know - I owned an Audi 5000T that did this.
I was driving on an interstate highway on cruise control - my feet were not touching the pedals. The car suddenly went to full throttle. I could move the throttle pedal up and down with my foot. The brake pedal would not budge. I shut off the cruise control via a dashboard switch, and regained control. After the turbo boost dropped below atmospheric pressure, I regained brakes. I later discovered the check valve on the vacuum assist was worn, causing the loss of brakes when the turbo was on boost. The throttle issue was clearly the cruise control malfunction. It never did it again. I could not duplicate the fault, so I suspect poor RF shielding (trucker using a hopped up CB radio?).
I contacted Audi, and they blew me off.
To their credit, they stopped using the check valve method, so someone at Audi understood the fault condition. I'm less sure about the other issue. I solved the problem by deciding never to buy another Audi.
Place nail here >+
For your free dialling wand, please mash the keypad now.
Audi got partial blame for their unintended acceleration problems because the brake and throttle were close enough that when it was fully depressed, the driver would have trouble telling from position which pedal was depressed.
That was Audi's excuse - but not the actual reason.
I was driving on an interstate highway on cruise control in an Audi 5000 Turbo, when the car suddenly went to full throttle. I could easily move the gas pedal up and down, so it wasn't stuck. I shut off the cruise control via a dashboard switch, and regained control. The throttle issue was clearly the cruise control malfunction. It never did it again. I could not duplicate the fault, so I suspect poor RF shielding (trucker using a hopped up CB radio?).
Yeah - I contacted Audi with the "good news" and they had zero interest. They would rather blame the customer than recall the cars.
Place nail here >+
"I can think of no circumstances under which a driver would want power going to the wheels while pressing the brake pedal (other than perhaps achieving the lowest possible 0-to-60-mph time)."
Drying the brakes after running through a puddle.
Most electric carts I've used have only one pedal. When you push it, the cart moves forward. When you let go, it brakes.
How asinine is it to expect a car to coast (no powered acceleration) but not brake? Using your model, when my car is coasting, I'd have to keep the pedal slightly depressed so it would accelerate during a long downward hill.
Also, switching around the now-standardized pedal layout (approximates automatic-drive, not manual) is a no-brainer. It would literally be a non-starter if I had to switch driving modes just because one of my cars is electric.
Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
This has been in the news before...many cars that aren't "high-performance" cars will cut the throttle as soon as they detect that the brake pedal has been pushed.
Given that, it's entirely reasonable to suggest that Tesla do the same.
What country are you from? I'm an American. I guess I'm just not educated enough to know, but what is a "Honey Booboo?" And why do you believe I have one? Survivor, I think is some cable TV show. I guess it is popular in your country? Or do you just consume a lot of media that talks about it?
He thinks the tesla spacing is bad. Try driving a Pantera. the Tesla has HUGE spacing compared to the pantera.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
No, we would have one pedal. pull back for gas, push foreward for brake, 100% safer as it is impossible to hit both at the same time.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
I just push the button on the dash labelled "launch control". and real cars had a line lock on the brakes to do that as well. I know my dad's superbee had a line lock on the brakes from the factory.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
No need to re-engineer. Just need a simple rule.
All cars should cut gas as soon as the brakes are engaged. Imagine the effect that would have had on Toyota a few years back. Double-pedal is a failure, and should be interpreted as such. Gas should not override/overcome the brakes. What if there was a mechanical failure in the gas pedal that led to a Full on position? Not to mention the energy wasted during such a maneuver.
Why hasn't this happened?
True, that might be what would occur too. But why not use two feet since we have them? I'm not convinced that hitting both pedals simultaneously is a big concern though...brakes override the engine, and from my experience I'm extremely hard-wired to only using my left for braking. It'd be dangerous for me to use my right.
Then usual answer is NO.
wonder if he'd been getting driving tips from this guy? http://www.liveleak.com/view?i...
I liked it. Maybe you're not nerdy enough?
TFA was an interesting analysis, drew upon the author's to airplane safety research, and reached some interesting conclusions. For example, one of the conclusions was (paraphrasing) that Tesla software has a User Interface warning (beeps + message) if driver pushes both brake + accelerator... so why not go one step further and ignore accelerator if brake is pressed at the same time? Author couldn't think of a scenario where that would be a problem. I can't either. Seems like a simple safety feature. I'd love to hear what automotive engineers think about it.
just forgot to write a blog or post on /.
I've logged several hundreds of thousands of miles on regular cars and cannot recall this happening once before.
(including driving a Prius)
driven ~15.000 miles in the Model S and this actually happened twice now.
I think he's onto something.
Although i disagree with his "software fix".
several of the stop signs on steep hills in San Francisco require you to give gas before releasing the brake pedal. otherwise the car rolls back a foot or two before the torque kicks in.
Given that, it's entirely reasonable to suggest that Tesla do the same.
The NHTSA is actually pushing for it as a requirement. This is pissing off a lot of performance drivers, who can of course fuck off and install full EMS on their race car. Tesla will be able to implement it as a software change, with an OTA update. I haven't found any citations which agree, but I've read a comment here which says they've done it already.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Odds are sharply against radio interference being your problem. A more likely scenario is some sort of electrical fault in the controller itself. Probably a part from Bosch. I say that because I am prejudiced against them because their shit has gone downhill in the last twenty years, and now it's the same shit as everyone else's but they still want special Bosch money for it. My 1997 A8 has Bosch electronics, or you might say, motronics. Bosch would. The ABS computer, which is inside of the cockpit, actually refused to scan because of corrosion on the ABS pump connector. That's right, because of something that happened downstream (perhaps literally, given the state of the connector) the ABS module wouldn't even return codes. Everyone and their mom advised me to replace the module, but I found the corrosion, hit it with a shitload of QD, and cleaned it up to the point where the ABS worked again. That's worse than pathetic, that's abusive. Bosch: Pathetically abusive.
German cars are known for failing due to electrical problems. And in the new cars, that means buying expensive connector repair tools. There's about eight different pin removal tools and twenty different kinds of pins used on VAG cars (volkswagen auto group, though the vagina jokes run fast and thick... there's another one) so you need a $2,000 set (!) to work on them all. In my 1982 mercedes, the connectors snap open by hand and you remove pins by hand and solder new ones on by hand, etc etc. Those days are gone.
I solved the problem by deciding never to buy another Audi.
Yeah well, now they're just VWs with nicer interior. Might as well buy the VW, it's almost as nice.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Interesting. I was never able to duplicate the fault. But I had heard that VW Golf EFI was affected by RF (rumor - not fact) which lead to my suspicion. But a component failure seems quite likely.
Place nail here >+
No, we would have one pedal. pull back for gas, push foreward for brake, 100% safer as it is impossible to hit both at the same time.
That is a poor design because it requires you to pull your leg back sometimes.
It is also a poor design because strong acceleration will tend to be self-reinforcing. During a surge of acceleration, the pedal (effectively) moves away from you.
It is also a poor design because if you take your foot off the pedal, you will accelerate. You could include a dead man's switch on the pedal to detect that condition, but switches fail all the time. Brake light switches fail all the time, even though they are one of the most important senders on the vehicle. P/N switches also fail regularly.
Congratulations, you have just advocated a "solution" which will make the problem even worse. Do you even car, bro?
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
The only reason to use both pedals in an auto (one on each pedal, no need to use one foot on both) is to spool up the turbo.
psssst Trail Braking. Too bad you don't know what you're talking about, or that could have been a really informative post.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
But why not use two feet since we have them?
Because I have three pedals.
Have gnu, will travel.
no automatic ever required heel-toe. The only reason to use both pedals in an auto (one on each pedal, no need to use one foot on both) is to spool up the turbo.
Not any more, in a modern auto the accelerator cuts out when you press the brake. Brake boosting doesn't work any more.
Besides this, there is never any need to do heel toe in an auto because they only have 2 pedals.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
I had a Dodge truck and a Nissan Xterra, both with standard transmissions, which I would drive daily. Every time I'd drive the Xterra with boots on I'd end up slamming on the brake pedal while depressing the clutch. I thought I was just used to driving the wider spaced pedals in the truck. It turns out, there just wasn't enough room in the Xterra for wearing boots. I considered it a design flaw.
The "one foot" style of driving is simply a poor carryover from manual transmissions. If automatic-transmission cars were designed from scratch today with no backstory, we'd have the brake over on the left, the gas on the right. Simple, obvious.
What about people that drive both auto and stick?
Have gnu, will travel.
I have no real advice on what we should do about stick...perhaps the clutch is in the middle?
Line locks are generally used for burnouts. They allowed a difference in braking from the front to the back. Launch control is a form of traction control.
Learn to love Alaska
As you may know, if you spin an electric motor by putting a prop on it and letting the wind spin it, you've just made a generator. You may also know that doesn't mean that the spin a motor powers itself, forming a perpetual motion machine. That's because the generated voltage is in the reverse direction from the direction required to make it spin (among other things).
So what happens is that when you apply 12 volts to make a motor turn, that "generator effect" is producing 6 volts the other direction. If you put a multimeter on the motor terminals, it'll read 12V - 6V = 6V. So the spinning motor has 6V at its terminals. If it's not spinning, it doesn't work as a generator, so it has 12V on terminals. Guess which one has more torque, the stalled motor with 12V or the spinning motor with 6V? The motor with the full 12V (because it's not generating -6V) has more torque. Max torque, therefore, is at 0 RPM. Faster spinning means more negative voltage generated and lower torque.
A manufacturer of the control circuit can of course ARTIFICIALLY limit the power to the motor at low RPM. If they set the control circuit to not ALLOW the motor to full torque, the car would see consistent torque. That's not because of the motor, though, that would be an artificial limit configured into the controller.
Why are you on the throttle coming into a turn? Trail braking is a form of late braking, and doesn't require your left foot at all, unless you are stomping both pedals to effectively brake with only the rear wheels in an FWD car (might as well use the handbrake then).
Trail-braking: As you reach the slowing point, lift your right foot from your throttle and apply the brake with your right foot. Enter the turn with above-neutral speed. Leave right foot on the brake to shift weight of vehicle foreward. When past apex, move right foot from brake to throttle. Apply appropraitely.
That you don't know what trail braking is doesn't make me wrong. It just makes you an idiot for correcting me. But then, driving is something that 90% of people think they are above average in, so I'm sure you think you are in that group. What, went karting once so you are a racing expert now?
Learn to love Alaska
I tried it in my 2013 car, and gas and brake results in the application of both. Though it isn't a turbo, so it wouldn't help me any.
Learn to love Alaska
Heel and toe is a technique for blipping the gas pedal with the RIGHT foot while using the left foot to actuate the clutch, in order to have a smoother downshift by raising engine revs for the new lower gear.
Left foot braking was pioneered by Walter Rohl driving the turbocharged Audi rally cars. It's pointless in non-turbocharged cars, and completely pointless in an electric car.
This guy? It's a combination of elderly driver (notice most causes of "unintended" acceleration involve elderly drivers) and inappropriate footwear. Living in a northeast state, I can tell you that I learned my first winter as a driver (when I was 16-17) that boots were different from shoes when driving. This idiot is 65 and apparently just figured it out after almost 50 years of driving? Bullshit. This was just a bunch of sensationalist muckraking, complete with the scary stock photos of an "automobile crash."
Should the pedal spacing match other cars? Yes. Should the Tesla lock out acceleration when the brake pedal is pushed? Yes - most throttle-by-wire cars do this (and you can probably expect a software update soon, I'm guessing, though such a sensitive bit of code needs to be fully validated.) Was it the car's fault that he supposedly almost crashed? Nope.
Please help metamoderate.
I tried it in my 2013 car, and gas and brake results in the application of both. Though it isn't a turbo, so it wouldn't help me any.
Which car? Was it just revving or were you getting power to the wheels?
I tried it in a 2013 Toyota Corolla (CVT), a 2010 Subaru Impreza (4sp TC) and a 2011 Holden (GM) Cruze (6sp TC) and all cut the accelerator whilst the brake was pressed. I was curious about this since I first heard about it.
The only way I found to induce wheel spin was using the handbrake.
But I usually drive a manual.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
I thoroughly disagree. As a UX designer, I consider my design "in need of improvement" if it's designed such that it's easy to make specific, known errors. A few hours ago I was on the phone with a customer who uses my Strongbox software. He was making the same error that many other people make. That many people make the error proves to me that the software doesn't make it sufficiently obvious what the correct action is.
about when you've been in sometime else's car at night. Often you have to hunt for the door lever and especially on older cars you have to figure out if the handle should be rotated upward, pulled out and back, out and forward, etc. Doors on buildings often have instructions posted on them - Push or Pull. Other buildings don't need instructions - the door has a flat metal plate that can only be pushed. It can't be pulled or turned, it's a flat plate. Emergency exits get it right - a wide, flat bar is obviously for pushing. Some doors, like one I sawlast week, get it ENTIRELY wrong - that one had a round knob - which needed to be SLID to the side. Round knobs are for turning! Vertical slits or projections are for sliding to the side. Not surprisingly, I saw two different people struggle with that door until someone helped them.
We talked about the handles inside of cars. Contrast that with the handles on the outside of a car door. That's a good design. Noone will ever need help figuring out how to operate an exterior car door handle because the design is such that the user can only do one thing - insert fingers and pull.
I seek to make my designs be like exterior car handles - intuitively obvious. With the right design, not only do users not make errors, they aren't even distracted by looking at the UX, figuring it out. They just do it automatically, intuitively, like opening the door to get into a car.
Credit to The Design of Everyday Things for the door handle example.
I have no real advice on what we should do about stick...perhaps the clutch is in the middle?
How would you operate something like that without making things more complicated?
To see this effect in action in an interesting way, apply power to an electric motor, then remove power and watch it freewheel to a stop. Next, add a diode to the terminals, oriented such that the normal power does not go through the diode. Run it and remove power. You'll notice it no longer freewheels, but stops abruptly. What's happening is that it's working as a generator driving itself in reverse. As long as it's spinning, the voltage it produces goes through the diode and tries to make it go backward. As soon as it stops, no more voltage is generated and it never goes in reverse, but stops dead.
The effect is powerful enough that if you don't hook up power and just short the terminals, it becomes very difficult to turn the motor by hand. The motor is literally fighting against you. This is great for robots and such where you want the motor to turn for a certain time and then stop. Just have your controller short the terminals for "stop".
The exact same effect occurs when the motor is operating normally - any time it spins it produces reverse voltage which results in reverse torque trying hard to stop itself.
I'd just bought a gallon jug of cider at a local apple farm
Try adding the word 'another' at various places in that sentence and see how it reads.
Please be a user interface designer, not a user experience designer. If an interface is giving me an experience, it's getting in the way.
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
Because the average IQ and training level of a driver is so low that the added complexity seems to confound them.
You have to dumb it down for their safety, or make getting and keeping a drivers license a lot harder.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Nope. line lock lets you keep the throttle at 25-50% and auto releases when you mash it. making you launch like a maniac while keeping the turbo spooled.
you are thinking of a brake lock that locks the front brakes but leaves the rear disengaged.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
What it really induces is a condition known as "if you don't know where the brake pedal is, you're a fucking moron." They could put it on the damn visor, it's still YOUR job to know where it is.
Wouldn't you think using two feet is less complex than being required to move your foot around all the time, needing to keep the state of what foot is where, instead of just being programmed to always do the same action with the correct leg?
We seem to have no problem with people using one arm for one thing, another for something else: video game controllers, keyboards and mouse, etc.
These days we're used to the Apple hype about design, but that's just consumer goods. In some cases, good design means lives saved. Bad design, or even decent design with unintended consequences, can be dangerous.
A former F-111 pilot told me that there were some controls to the right of the pilot's seat (radio IIRC). These worked just fine during flight and were well-designed in themselves, but eventually some unexplained crashes due to pilot error led investigators to these controls. Turns out if a pilot turned his head to use these controls at the same time he was performing a certain flight maneuver, it would screw up his inner ear, he would lose his sense of orientation, and possibly crash the plane.
It wasn't necessarily bad design, but it is a reminder that we can't anticipate all of the consequences of any one design when dealing with people. The important part is that when we identify an unintended consequence of a design, we change the design to compensate instead of blaming user stupidity.
Such terms are sloppily used, so I looked it up and used Wikipedia's definition. It doesn't agree with yours.
Learn to love Alaska
Thank you for the additional detail. I didn't go into how advanced drive circuits can mitigate the otherwise nearly linear drop in torque because the discussion was about MAXIMUM torque, as opposed to "pretty good" torque. At least for the one EV motor I've studied the dyno chart for, the changing drive voltage helps the torque curve to be flattER, but nevertheless max torque is still at stall.
My post was long enough already.
See also: http://www.thecarconnection.co...
Either you or the engineers at BMW, Daimler-Benz, Audi, and Cadillac are ignorant on this subject, which seems most likely?
I wasn't wearing crampons, snowshoes, ski boots, clown shoes, or swim fins. I was wearing boots. Boots are standard footwear. They are commonly worn in four-wheel drive SUVs.