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Why Snowden Did Right
Bruce66423 writes: "Ebon Moglen Gives a comprehensive explanation of how the NSA's surveillance operations are a threat to a functioning democracy, and why there is a need for real change. There are interesting parallels to the Roman Empires: 'The power of that Roman empire rested in its leaders' control of communications. ... The emperors invented the posts to move couriers and messages at the fastest possible speed. Using that infrastructure, with respect to everything that involved the administration of power, the emperor made himself the best-informed person in the history of the world. That power eradicated human freedom. "Remember," said Cicero to Marcellus in exile, "wherever you are, you are equally within the power of the conqueror.'
Nowadays, 'Our military listeners have invaded the centre of an evolving net, where conscriptable digital superbrains gather intelligence on the human race for purposes of bagatelle and capitalism. In the US, the telecommunications companies have legal immunity for their complicity, thus easing the way further. The invasion of our net was secret, and we did not know that we should resist. But resistance developed as a fifth column among the listeners themselves. Because of Snowden, we now know that the listeners undertook to do what they repeatedly promised respectable expert opinion they would never do. They always said they would not attempt to break the crypto that secures the global financial system. That was false.'"
Nowadays, 'Our military listeners have invaded the centre of an evolving net, where conscriptable digital superbrains gather intelligence on the human race for purposes of bagatelle and capitalism. In the US, the telecommunications companies have legal immunity for their complicity, thus easing the way further. The invasion of our net was secret, and we did not know that we should resist. But resistance developed as a fifth column among the listeners themselves. Because of Snowden, we now know that the listeners undertook to do what they repeatedly promised respectable expert opinion they would never do. They always said they would not attempt to break the crypto that secures the global financial system. That was false.'"
Apparently the NSA and CIA don't want us to read that - the link points to how / when to write a kernel module.
If somebody did something right in the last decades, politically speaking, was Snowden.
Greenwald's Finale: Naming Victims of Surveillance
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2014/05/26/greenwalds_finale_naming_victims_of_surveillance_122747.html
The source article is paywalled
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
I have no idea where that link is supposed to take you, it's entirely wrong (way to go editors)
But here's the start of a 4 part talk by Eben Moglen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
And thusly, as Philip K Dick correctly asserted in 1973: The Empire never ended.
I hope people aren't really surprised by the fact that our history of illustrious leaders never intended for there to be a true democracy anywhere in the world. I mean, that's mob rule after all and we can't have that!
She blinded me with science, she tricked me with technology. ~ Thomas Dolby
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/may/27/-sp-privacy-under-attack-nsa-files-revealed-new-threats-democracy
From TFA:"Nowadays, 'Our military listeners have invaded the centre of an evolving net, where conscriptable digital superbrains gather intelligence on the human race for purposes of bagatelle and capitalism."
It's not capitalism if the government has its hooks in every aspect of trade and communications.
www.facebook.com/DareDefendOurRights
www.fairtax.org
The linky points to a kernel hacking article.
If all Snowden had done was blow the whistle on domestic surveillance programs, I'd agree entirely.
But doing a massive document dump that included things the NSA is *supposed* to do - spy on non-US countries - puts Snowden in another category. What that category winds up being is going to be decided by history. But it won't be that of a simple whistleblower doing nothing but good.
Because the only people who claim that have "harming the US" as a goal. (At least have the balls to admit that, please.)
because you or I can't prove our rights are being violated unless the Supreme Court pulls their heads out of unconstitutional storage.
by Glenn Greenwald
The full force and impact of this book on NSA's full spectrum domestic and international surveillance cannot be stressed enough; what we have heard and read in various international news articles is gathered here at one source, to be read to fully grasp the enormity of it all!
When those of us who served in the military, and worked for various organizations for the NSA (Naval Security Group, or NSG, Army Security Agency, or the ASA, USAF Security Service), the agency was strictly forbidden from domestic surveillance --- for that way lies ultimate power!
During Reagan's administration, in 1988, the NSA was transferred from civilian status to the domain of the Department of Defense, under control of the Pentagon.
Such action initiated what Greenwald so aptly describes as its present incarnation of Orwellian dimensions.
Although Glenn cogently describes its financial intelligence spying, only those who have been diligently following the financial investigative journalism of Matt Taibbi, Pam Martens and Nomi Prins will fully appreciate the significance of this.
When NSA's full spectrum intelligence is disseminated to its clients --- the Department of the Treasury, the Department of Agriculture, the Department of Justice, etc. --- it is being likewise dispersed to Wall Street (DOT = Goldman Sachs and JPMorgan Chase, DOA = Big Agra, or ADM, Cargill, Monsanto, etc., and DOJ = Wall Street's white-shoe firms, etc.).
This is a slight peek behind the curtain of the unholy financial-intelligence-complex which sits atop the pyramid of control.
Remember that Edward Snowden was a contractor with Booz Allen Hamilton, and has proven to the world his unimaginable and extraordinary access to the most senstive of NSA programs --- and who owns Booz Allen?
One of the top private equity/leveraged buyout firms (private banks), the Carlyle Group, with the likes of George H.W. Bush as a past advisor, and with the original seed money coming from the Mellon family.
Thusly we must ask just how much access to global financial intelligence do these private banks routinely enjoy, along with their publicly owned cousins, JPMorgan Chase and Goldman Sachs?
When NSA intercepts shipments of routers, switches and other network devices to insert backdoor software and hardware to reroute data communications back to them --- it isn't about national security --- just financial intelligence --- had anyone of those traitors ever been concerned with real national security they would have sounded the alarm about the offshoring of jobs, technology and investment to China and elsewhere!
When the Boeing subsidiary, Narus (or other similar firms), aids totalitarian countries to capture pro-democracy activists for torture and death, so too does the NSA help in preemptive arrests of American activists and community organizers, as well as members of the Occupy Wall Street movement.
As one National Intelligence Officer is quoted in the book as stating, "...this is about vast profit..."
[Please see the bottom of p. 224 and top of p. 225 to understand why no one should give a rat's ass at the recent firing of New York Times executive editor, Jill Abramson.]
This is a fantastic book not to be missed!
Additional sources and pertinent sites:
http://electrospaces.blogspot....
https://www.aclu.org/sites/def...
http://www.mindmeister.com/326...
http://www.wikileaks-forum.com...
Nothing but forgetting history is to blame. And it's a damn short history.
Link points to an article on how/when to write a kernel module - what's going on Slashdot?
NSA pressuring you? or did they just hack you to redirect the story?
If you trust coercive authority, then snowden did wrong. If you do not trust coercive authority, then snowden did right.
Unfortunately, the vast majority of human beings (regardless of where they live in the world) DO trust coercive authority, and this of course makes life a hell of a lot easier for the elite the top of the power pyramid.
If you think back 40-50, one of the primary criticism of Soviet Russia was that no one in that country did any real work. In industry you sat around all day playing chess, and the governement most spent it's time surveilling itself and everyone else. While this was an exaggeration, the point should be well taken. The purpose of a governement is to govern, and if too many resources are spent spying, if the stability is so strained that constant monitoring of citizens is required, then that nation-state is not going to survive very long. It is not only the expense, it is the waste of talent, the existence of meaningless jobs. This later is really death to a country. If young people know they need no real education because they can just chill in the military or hang out and drink vodka while spying on other people, why would they bother to gain real skills?
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
Bulk record of all phone calls in Bahamas its ok then?
You are talking this because you are an american trying to protect the darkest interests of your country.
Why don't we put these darkest interests in subject?
Why, in the hell, any country (even mine) have the right to record my phone calls, track my e-mails, access all my data?
NSA extended their surveillance out of limits for both American citizens and foreign countries. This, is, not, right.
And questioning this threatens the natural order where the top 0.01 percent get 50 percent of the GDP gain while the rest is divided amongst the upper classes.
Not sure what happens to workers. Big Brother will take care of them.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
The United States is not a democracy. It never has been. We use a democratic election process to elect representatives. That means we live in a republic. Which, coincidentally, is what the Romans had before they were an empire.
But a republic is what the founding fathers had in mind. A true democracy would not work in America. And if you doubt that, learn what a true democracy entails.
They are still tapping phones, they are still encroaching on our very-so-precious privacy. I don't want NSA to hear me talk sex with a russian prostitute overseas. It's my right as an American to do what I want behind closed doors....
Snowden is just popular because it's cool to disrupt the status-quo and by doing so, he is therefore part of the status-quo - meaning nothing has changed and nothing will ever change because there is nothing that needs to be changed...
Previewing comments are for sissies!
Civilizations collapse when they become to complex to manage, and are no longer able to adapt to perturbations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Tainter).
The meddling of the NSA, with the resulting responses (everything encrypted, tor, darkmail, privacy protections, binning Cisco/Huawei routers, general distrust and added security overhead) has added a huge burden to the system. This unintended consequence makes the system unstable and counterproductive to the aims of the NSA.
The internet used to be a nice shiny toy until the government broke it.
Prove anything by multiplying Huge Number times Tiny Number
The author makes good points, that the only way such surveillance could be allowed to occur is with informed consent, and that's what Snowden gave us the opportunity to do.
I think the upcoming two elections in the US, 2014 and 2016, will be the most important votes cast in the history of the world. The US Government with the actions of the NSA has essentially imprisoned the entire world with invisible bars. When everything you say is recorded and monitored and the military/LEO might exists to punish you immediately and thoroughly, you are not free. You can't see the bars, but you're still a prisoner.
The rest of the world has no ability to dismantle the prison. They do not get a say in the working of the US Government. Force is not an option as the US military outstrips every other force on earth combined.
Domestically, protest is worthless. Those in power do not listen, do not care, and target those who protest with their surveillance state, as evidenced by the reaction to Occupy Wall Street.
The one and only way to dismantle the prison is for the voters of the United States to vote only for candidates who promise to dismantle it, and then hold them accountable for doing so. That's it. It's the only way to dismantle the system. Force won't work, protests won't work, only voting will.
So this is it. If the American voters reject the surveillance state in 2014 and 2016, there's hope. But if they don't, if they don't care, if they vote for establishment candidates who will keep the system in place, then that's it. The surveillance state will exist with the informed consent of the US voters, the mandate is set, and the doors to the world prison will clink shut, with little to no chance of ever opening again. To the rest of the world, your only hope is the United States voting public.
We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
The sad truth is the majority of Americans are fundamentally cowards. That, combined with the human tendency to grossly over estimate the risks from rare events with severe consequences creates this problem.
Unlike a war which happens over there terrorist acts can happen anywhere. If they can happen anywhere, they can happen here, to me! Gasp!
Look at the hysteria that occurred when the anthrax mailings were going on. People were reporting "white powder" everywhere and breathlessly telling each other "that could've been me, I could have DIED".
No, not really. Unless you were a postal worker, you had a bigger chance of being kicked to death by a wild mule than you did of encountering anthrax in a package.
The sad truth is people play their potential role up in their mind because they think their lives are boring and uneventful. A terrorist attack may be horrible, but it is exciting, too. People do the same thing with celebrities. "OMG! I ate dinner in the same restaurant as Justin Bieber! He was there the night before!"
Add all of that together and you get a lot of people who will gladly give up lots of freedom for a little (perceived) security.
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
USA is rather like it's small brother North Korea. Both countries love to have power over people and put people in jails whenever possible. For foreigners: you will shocked by the number of security forces on US streets. On arrival you will be greeted like criminal, pictures and fingerprints. If you go shopping, armed person. If you go to preschool, armed person. Everywhere people with guns just waiting for the orders to shoot. One day those to countries will merge to form North Korea of America.
Hah, If nothing else, that he's being shielded by a true tyrant is evidence of what side of right he's truly on.
Because america, although projected as one, is far from a functional democracy. We've engaged in systematic disenfranchisement and enslavery of an entire race of people during slavery and well into the 20th century within the confines our our policy of mass incarceration. Women didnt achieve equal voting rights until the early 20th century. We wiped an entire indigenous race of humans out of existence during colonization. Voter identification is enforced in 30 states and will prevent free and open election for anyone without a picture ID. Gerrymandering, closed primary elections, and the 2000 florida voter scandal are all conclusive proof we do not even remotely represent a functional democracy and have not for quite some time. Former criminals, after completing their sentence, are barred from the right to vote in many states and may only seek restoration of their voting rights with the pardon of a governor and a steep fee. Many states still maintain a debtors prison system by which those who cannot pay court costs are summarily enrolled in detention facilities. A Third party has not existed in any respectible context in the United States for more than 100 years, and the electoral college system exists to ensure this reality remains unchallenged. There are virtually no repercussions for employers who resist or refuse an employees request for time off from work to vote. Japanese americans faced internment and were not permitted to vote during world war two, let alone contact family members outside of their camp. Jews were barred in america holding state office for quite some time, and atheists to this day in many states are still restricted from holding political office. New York has a stop-and-frisk policy where they do not need probable cause to stop anyone at will. Our supreme court recently ruled that the systemic isolation, relocation, and arrest of protestors during the presidency of George W Bush was entirely legal. As evidenced by the occupy campaign we readily beat, torture, and maim protestors even going to far as to hose passive protestors with pepperspray for simply existing. Our borders have the free right to interrogate, stop, and detain anyone (american or not) without any formal probable cause. Those declared terrorists may be detained indefinitely and shipped to a secret torture camp in Cuba. We have banned the communist party from ever taking part in an american election or operating as political party.
so while I applaud the author for pointing this very recent discovery out, its critical to remember we are as much a functional democracy as the USSR was a functional communism.
Good people go to bed earlier.
If the NSA only spied for military purposes on foreign governments, I would see your point. The NSA spied on German citizens, not just their military. Since it's all "secret" we really don't know a motive, but looking at how the police there shut down demonstrations real time similar to how OWS was shut down in the US you should be questioning their handling and use of the data. I could point to similar incidents in the UK, where again the NSA was spying on citizens not just military with similar results.
Other reports have mentioned things like industrial espionage being done by the NSA. Again, since it's all "secret" we only know what's been leaked, and what's been leaked is their capabilities more than their actions. In other words, we don't know everything they have been doing with all the data they collect.
This paints a rather eerie picture of what the NSA is really doing as an agency.
Sure, I'll defend the average agent who believes they are just going a job and defending the USA. As a Veteran I defend soldiers with the same beliefs. The agency they work for however, does not deserve the same defense when you consider a long series of known abuses.
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
The only thing Edward Snowden did wrong was publicly identify himself. If you think Obama and Holder give a damn about the US Constitution and Bill of Rights you are seriously delusional. Obama, a constitutional lawyer, is a traitor and should be impeached and executed by hanging by the neck until dead. Holder, after death by firing squad, can be the the "dead weight" added to Obama to ensure the traitorous POTUS dies a quick death and doesn't linger one moment longer. Their corpses incinerated and intermingled with Anthrax before being incinerated a second in in kerosene.
Don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel!
If you're going to put Obama in that category then I have to add George W Bush to the list and most of Congress who also went along with violations of the Constitution too.
... until he jumped on a plane and handed over classified documents to China and Russia. At that point he became a traitor.
I do not condone what he did, but he could had accomplished his mission without becoming a traitor if only he were man enough to accept (and fight) the legal consequences.
Yes, what he should have done was had 1000 fellow slaves proclaim themselves Spartacus instead.
Then they'd all be crucified.
You, apparently, are not bright enough to realize that the country was founded by a bunch of rich men throwing out a tyrant. Now, you the puppet of a tyrant.
Revealing domestic surveillance was good, revealing state secrets regarding spying on foreign nations was nothing but treachery.
The problem was, he had so much info, there was no realistic way for him to sort through it all in a reasonable timeframe. On the other hand, he could have picked out specific documents for release, but so much valuable info would have been missed because there was no way he could have gone through it all.
Exactly; most of our elected officials, at both the federal and state levels, have committed similar crimes.
If you RTFA, uried in there this:
"until tomorrow"?
Amen.
Americans are afraid because the media - especially Fox News who prays upon old people;the majority of voters during the mid-terms - has instilled fear to generate ratings.
TV, Internet and radio news is evil and for stupid people.
Spread the word.
noun 1. something of little value or importance; a trifle. 2. a game played on a board having holes at one end into which balls are to be struck with a cue. 3. pinball. 4. a short and light musical composition, typically for the piano. IDGI
... this (mass surveillance) is just more part and parcel of state suppression of dissent against corporate interests. They're worried that the more people are going to wake up and corporate centers like the US and canada may be among those who also awaken. See this vid with Zbigniew Brzezinski, former United States National Security Advisor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
Look at the following graphs:
http://www2.ucsc.edu/whorulesa...
http://www2.ucsc.edu/whorulesa...
http://www2.ucsc.edu/whorulesa...
And then...
WIKILEAKS: U.S. Fought To Lower Minimum Wage In Haiti So Hanes And Levis Would Stay Cheap
http://www.businessinsider.com...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
Free markets?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
http://www.amazon.com/Empire-I...
"We now live in two Americas. One—now the minority—functions in a print-based, literate world that can cope with complexity and can separate illusion from truth. The other—the majority—is retreating from a reality-based world into one of false certainty and magic. To this majority—which crosses social class lines, though the poor are overwhelmingly affected—presidential debate and political rhetoric is pitched at a sixth-grade reading level. In this “other America,” serious film and theater, as well as newspapers and books, are being pushed to the margins of society.
In the tradition of Christopher Lasch’s The Culture of Narcissism and Neil Postman’s Amusing Ourselves to Death, Pulitzer Prize-winner Chris Hedges navigates this culture—attending WWF contests, the Adult Video News Awards in Las Vegas, and Ivy League graduation ceremonies—to expose an age of terrifying decline and heightened self-delusion."
It's spelled "baguette" - the French were in on the whole crusty but tasty conspiracy from the beginning.
Also add Clinton(D) and Gore(D) for expanding Echelon, and creating NSA-Key and CALEA.
Can one of you "impeachists" (whether it's Obama or Bush doesn't matter) please explain to me why Congress would impeach the President for doing all the things that they authorized and approved and loudly yelled "fuck yes, oh yes oh yes oh yes" about?
We haven't even bothered to do a damn thing about Congress yet. And you want an impeachment? This is like asking Hitler to do something about Goebbels, based on the idea that Goebbels is "too Nazi." WTF?
You're talking about something that has bipartisan support, backed by something like 99% of the voters. Maybe you ought to be bitching at us, not the presidents that we elect to do all the horrible things that we want done to our self-loathing country.
90% of our elected officials (poisoned by power), not 90% of the electorate, maybe 50% if you include the woefully uneducated. Anyone who truly understands the issue is either alarmed, or benefits from the situation.
Cheap storage VM.
It would be more constructive if American spying suspected information from mercenaries, and used more double agents as conduits. I for one will be grateful when American spies stop goofiing off, and get back to work.
Now if only the NSA that monitors everything would tell me where I put my car keys last night. I shouldn't even have to ask, the Intel should just be there for me to consider.
I think they had slaves before there was an empire, let alone before the couriers.
I don't get it. Does this somehow dismiss TFS's claims? If so, how?
BS...
The Internet was always 'free', even by design. It just a moral issue on whether the gov't can tap that freedom for it's own purposes.
There's a reason why there's a 1st amendment, and a reason why there's a rule call 'freedom of the press'. It from the fact there were times of no 1st amendment nor freedom of the press in the US, the people realized that and the gov't took action.
We are at that time again as a people, aprat of a gov't to decide how the Internet should be used.
This f-ing crap about Roman Empire is much old-world thinking that it doesn't apply to the Internet--it was design to be open, to anyone or entity in the 1st place.
Very true. But Bush isn't currently in office. Obama can still affect future legislation in a meaningful way, and those congresscritters can still effect meaningful legislation. Let's keep the focus on those actually in office, and drop the partisan BS. Neither party is on our side here, but politicians still care if enough of a stink is raised among voters (the geek voice doesn't matter, but when they start getting calls from friends and family asking about stuff, you bet it matters). I think most people actually care about being spied on--it's programmed into us, as with most mammals, at a pretty fundamental level to treat strangers watching us as hostile--but most people don't yet realize the extent. There's also still hope for the courts.
I believe the German high court recently ruled as unconstitutional the cooperation between their own intel agency and the NSA, on the basis that the NSA does not comply with German law when spying on German citizens. Perhaps we can manage the same?
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
I guess that means there is no threat, at least for us, then.
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
Snowden would be a hero in my mind if he'd stopped at just revealing the illegal spying the NSA was doing on US citizens, but he went farther than that. He revealed a lot of the things the NSA does to spy on foreign powers. That is their job and I expect them to do it, and I do not expect a citizen of the US to reveal our sources and methods of intelligence gathering. I don't think he's an evil person but I do think he went too far.
From the article: "That distinction vanished in the United States because so much of the network and associated services, for better and worse, resided there. The question "Do we listen inside our borders?" was seemingly reduced to "Are we going to listen at all?"
At this point, a vastly imprudent US administration intervened. Their defining characteristic was that they didn't think long before acting. Presented with a national calamity that also constituted a political opportunity, nothing stood between them and all the mistakes that haste can make for their children's children to repent at leisure. What they did – in secret, with the assistance of judges appointed by a single man operating in secrecy, and with the connivance of many decent people who believed themselves to be acting to save the society – was to unchain the listeners from law.
Not only had circumstances destroyed the simplicity of "no listening inside", not only had fudging with the foreign intelligence surveillance act carried them where law no longer provided useful landmarks, but they actually wanted to do it. Their view of the nature of human power was Augustan, if not august. They wanted what it is forbidden to wise people to take unto themselves. And so they fell, and we fell with them."
More From the article: "The US government and its listeners have not advanced any convincing argument that what they do is compatible with the morality of freedom, US constitutional law or international human rights. They will instead attempt, as much as possible, to change the subject, and, whenever they cannot change the subject, to blame the messenger."
In case you didn't get to the bottom of the Guardian essay, that essay comes from "Snowden and the Future", a 4-part talk series Eben Moglen gave on October 9, October 30, November 13 and December 4 2013. It is highly recommended reading, watching, and/or listening. Audio, video, and transcripts are available at his website.
Digital Citizen
The facbook and google+ like buttons at the end of the article made me lol.
I don't want to hear any more complaints about how he's being mistreated by the government in trying to prosecute him.
That's exactly what they *SHOULD* do. And should he come to the US, and be arrested, he should plead GUILTY - as he is (by his own admission.)
He should then ask for clemency based on the fact that while he did break the law, he did so for the public good.
I'm tired of people saying that these government-secret-leakers are being treated unfairly. They're not. They're generally doing good things, yes, but they are ILLEGAL things. Chelsea Manning was right to plead guilty, as she was. And I *DO* believe she should receive clemency at some point. But claiming it was wrong to prosecute her is itself wrong.
We don't want to make "releasing government secrets" a zero-penalty act. If there are secrets that should be revealed, it should take moral hand-wringing before releasing. It should take someone thinking "is the potential penalty for this worth the good that the release will have?" Because we DON'T want truly-vital-to-the-safety-of-the-country secrets that aren't bad things to be released. We don't want the list of US agents undercover in Al Qaeda released. We don't want the US' plans for counter-attack if North Korea attacks South Korea released. We want people with access to Top Secret data to actually take that classification seriously; only to release it after a lengthy internal argument coming to the conclusion that the data is so important to release that they're willing to risk jail time or permanent exile. (That said, I think Snowden is an arrogant ass about his self-importance on this...)
Key word: Elected... Reelected!
The voters are accomplices. They knowingly put criminals into high office. They can no longer feign ignorance, or even stupidity.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
sNOwden put Americans, 330,000,000 of them at risk with enemies that this government has managed to flush out. He took this on by himself and did not get permission from the 330,000,000 people he put in direct way between those enemies and this government.
May they hang him high, so we can celebrate that national holiday.
Suppose I want to vote for a senator or a president. One wants to increase military and defense funding and the other wants to decrease the funding. Considering the degree to which defense and the military have how does my vote have meaning? The ability to make an informed choice does not exist when one can not be informed? When I see places like Afghanistan or Iraq or even Korea I do wonder if we have a military capable of protecting the nation. Remember when the 9/11 tragedy was playing out and we could not scramble armed fighters as we had no armed fighters available? I remember seeing the German air force called in to protect reactors in Florida. That was pretty sick.
You realize that those foreign powers know they're being spied on already right?
Snowden would be a hero in my mind if he'd stopped at just revealing the illegal spying the NSA was doing on US citizens, but he went farther than that. He revealed a lot of the things the NSA does to spy on foreign powers. That is their job and I expect them to do it, and I do not expect a citizen of the US to reveal our sources and methods of intelligence gathering.
You mean spying on foreign powers like, um, the Bahamas?
Just Hal Puthoff pranking Phil with SPECTRA/Uri Geller and a $5 laser pointer.
I have assumed for some time now that anything transmitted digitally is be sniffed, poked and prodded by various parties. No I don't wear a tinfoil hat. I am just a realist. Spying on digital transmissions has been WAY too easy for a while now. How any intelligent person could think that the NSA wasn't intercepting pretty much everything since 9/11 is beyond me.
All Snowden has done is put people who should have known better in the first place on notice. It will be harder for the spooks to do their jobs but all of his revelations aren't going to stop any of this. Look at the recent Senate vote. The bill was gutted before it was passed.
The government spying is one thing, don't get me started on all of the online services parsing through every mail, post, tweet, and click to build a better and better dossier on every user out there.
PRIVACY IS OVER AND DONE WITH!
I think you are naive in how to get things actually changed. Those abusing their power and moving the US closer to a 1984 novel nightmare is a valid reason to not follow the "rules". It is unlikely any other method would have changed their behavior.
"The rest of the world has no ability to dismantle the prison. They do not get a say in the working of the US Government"
They don't? Since when? The big multinational corporations and billionaires have been pouring money into our elections. They do it through 501(c)(4) "charities" ANONYMOUSLY. The Supreme Court said they could in the Citizen's United decision. They have been engaging lobbying firms that lavish our elected officials with trips, gifts and cash.
Get real. The U.S. is the most corrupt place on earth. Stop whining, earn or steal a few billion and get in the game, otherwise, STFU!
And Reagan. A lawyer friend of mine said most civil liberties went out the window during the "War on Drugs".
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
Teh First Rule of Teh Romans: All Is Slaves
Teh Seconds Rule of Teh Romans: Scotland is Free and Snowden Has Refuge There
There is no Third Rule
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
He came in and left with the intent of betrayal.
Any glorified status left him when he decided to go about taking whatever he could, hoping that some of it had PR value.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
He only bought time with that information - and that he knew there would be people willing to shield him if they had a copy.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
Well said. Cui bono - who benefits? Government officials like Michael Hayden keep conjuring up the terrorist boogieman to rationalize totalitarian surveillance but in the end "Knowledge is Power" and that is the ultimate objective. Access to all information - virtual omniscience - can cement any party's rule and wealth and some would do anything to obtain that power. I recommend watching PBS's recent Frontline documentary for an in depth look at the surveillance state. Our government is heavily influenced by corporate interests and it stands to reason mass surveillance is more about power with access to all information than it is about the safety of ordinary citizens. Terrorism is just a psychological ruse to distract from the real prize.
A point of interest - A key criteria in the FBI's definition of terrorism is to "influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion" With that said when the revolving door government officials fear monger and institute policies contrary to Constitutional principles are they facilitating terrorism?
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be-T J
> [Please see the bottom of p. 224 and top of p. 225 to understand why no one should give a rat's ass at the recent firing of New York Times executive editor, Jill Abramson.]
Seems like Greenwald disagrees with you.
Snowden would be a hero in my mind if he'd stopped at just revealing the illegal spying the NSA was doing on US citizens, but he went farther than that. He revealed a lot of the things the NSA does to spy on foreign powers. That is their job and I expect them to do it, and I do not expect a citizen of the US to reveal our sources and methods of intelligence gathering. I don't think he's an evil person but I do think he went too far.
4 Items in play.
The leak
The value (to protecting the US and the state of our constitutional/democratic republic) of the leak.
The cost (to protecting the US and the state of our constitutional/democratic republic) of the leak.
The effort and time to redact or to personally edit the material to improve the value or at least reduce the cost.
The value seems to be so much greater than the cost, I'm not sure if the effort that you suggest is warranted.
www.facebook.com/DareDefendOurRights
www.fairtax.org
You guys know you out yourselves by swooping over the mountains of laws broken by the government to zoom in on the molehill of whisteblowing, right?
Snowden took an oath to defend the Constitution of the United States. How do you suggest he go about doing that? Tell the CIA that the CIA is breaking the law?
We're a democratic republic. A republic doesn't necessarily mean that the people vote for their leaders. For example, in early US history only white male land owners could vote, and the state governments voted for president (via the electoral college). Even now an American cannot vote for a president, though great effort is made to focus their energy on that election (in this particular election you vote for the electoral college who votes for president, giving your vote two chances to be irrelevant).
Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
Of coarse, but when documentation of that spying was released to the public they had to pretend it was a big deal for domestic audiences.
This is far from harmless, it affects diplomacy with those nations.
We can just kill all the voters! Or all those who disagree with us! Hey, great idea!!!!!!!!!!! This democracy/republic/oligarchy is for the dogs! No, what I want is a totalitarian dictatorship based solely on our rational, logical belief system. As long as everyone does what we believe is right (and we reserve the right to torture and then execute anyone who disagrees with us, along with their immediate family to set an example) then we don't have any problems with anyone! Government will do exactly what we expect it to, and death to all others! Including those who don't fall under the umbrella of "we".
Here's to hot beer, cold women, and Glaswegian kisses for all.
Key word: Elected... Reelected!
The voters are accomplices. They knowingly put criminals into high office. They can no longer feign ignorance, or even stupidity.
I'm one of those voters. I've almost never voted for a major party candidate. Unfortunately I've also never voted for anyone who has won an election either. That being said, I can assure you that many (if not most) of those who you claim are feigning ignorance or stupidity are not feigning. A large majority of voters select their candidates like they would a sports team. It doesn't matter what they say or stand for, as long as they are in "their teams" uniform, they will vote for them. I suppose it's easier than thinking, but it's become a disastrous way to run a country.
The American people need to know exactly what wrongs their government is committing. If their job is to spy on innocent people anywhere, then their job is morally wrong.
Oh, and "Everybody's doing it!" is not an excuse.
and I do not expect a citizen of the US to reveal our sources and methods of intelligence gathering.
I expect anyone with principles to do that.
These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
I guess you are an American citizen. I'm not, so according to you/your laws the NSA can do what they want to me. I'm not happy with and I thank Snowden for revealing the USA treats everyone who is not American as a terrorist.
BTW: I'm not a terrorist, so STOP FUCKING EAVESDROPPING ON ME. Thanks.
And Reagan. A lawyer friend of mine said most civil liberties went out the window during the "War on Drugs".
You needed a lawyer to tell you this? There was a time when the police had to get a specific warrant to search a house. If they had a warrant to look for a missing kidnapped girl and found an illegal handgun, or a stolen car. There was nothing they could do about it. The search warrant was for the missing girl only. Once the "war on drugs" started most agencies simply got a warrant for drugs as anything they could find was admissible. Even if they weren't looking for drugs or didn't find any. Terrorism is used today in much the same way, It's like a drug warrant being served by senator Joe McCarthy on steroids after a 2 week cocaine bender and backed up by a SWAT team who all have Tourette Syndrome trigger fingers.
Fuckwits.
I've almost never voted for a major party candidate.
Well, the post is directed at the 98.3% that do.. It really doesn't matter why. They are aiding and abetting criminals. The kind of power they enjoy is impossible to acquire without lying, cheating, stealing, and otherwise breaking the law. It cannot be done. And the same goes outside of government.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
It's a threat to the democracy of the United States? How soon people forget, the U.S. is really an oligarchy, not a democracy. It's been this way for a long time too. So, there is no threat, 'cause there is no democracy in the U.S. to be threatened.
The invasion of our net was secret, and we did not know that we should resist.
Oh, we knew. The anti-activism state seeks to maintain the status quo even against their own people: That's what "national security" is. The mainstream news and pundits alike remained silent. But we knew about state media control too.
TFA makes it sound like Eisenhower didn't actually warn us of everything that fucking happened on his last day in office. We all knew. The shit was pungent and all encompassing. Just no one in the mainstream media was talking about it; Only the "conspiracy nutters" were. A term the media used to conflate regular illegal acts of conspiracy with schizophrenic belief in "lizard people" and "Illuminati" in order to help silence the signal.
You see, we all fucking knew. It took Snowden coming along and rubbing your nose in it to force the hand of the 4th estate (the media). It would make you media folks look like idiots if you didn't report on it, and even when you do, you present the story in the fucked up and slanted light that we didn't know and could have done nothing to stop it.
To be perfectly clear: The Media DID KNOW THEY CHOSE NOT TO SAY SHIT ABOUT IT. It's "Journalists" fucking fault that they present themselves as trustworthy enough to deliver important information to citizens, while remaining morally bankrupt. This is now a game of face-saving by the corrupt, both by the Corrupt States, and their Media Lapdogs. Fuck Right Off!
That is a very fair statement, but no, we won't stop spying on you. I don't know what country you are a citizen of but the odds are very good that your own intelligence agencies are spying on the US as well. Such is life.
I find it remarkable that people fault Snowden for breaking the law but give a pass to the many in government, from the president and the last president on down, who break the law every day by operating unlawful, unconstitutional, un-American programs that put this entire nation and everything it stands for at risk in a way that no terrorist can. Let Obama stand trial. Let Bush. Let Cheney. Let the lawyers and cabinet members with their "secret interpretation" of the Patriot Act. Let Dianne Feinstein for her round-heeled sycophancy towards our intelligence agencies. Let that bastard Hayden and everyone else at the NSA. Let them all stand trial first.
Get your priorities straight. Snowden should stand trial no more than George Washington.
quiquid id est, timeo puellas et oscula dantes.
I give up. Who owns Booz Allen?
Re: "Why, in the hell, any country (even mine) have the right to record my phone calls, track my e-mails, access all my data? "
It gets better, you have 5 other nations and a few extras getting data too. Thats all their active staff, former staff, ex staff who know of telco systems weaknesses floating around the world.
What of their cash flow, faith, political views at any time into the future? Thats the problem with weak encryption and junk telco networks. Generations of staff have seen the keys at work or know of nation wide weaknesses. We traded geography and junk encryption for 50 years of plain text via ENIGMA 2.0. Who else is getting the plain text? Who else is paying for the plain text? Who else is seeing into random gov's negotiations and offering the perfect price every time?
Junk encryption does not flow in one direction or magically stay in zones of interest. Once the keys are out, its fun for all. You really think the 5++ other nations are just reading what they get offered at shared sites and are not using the same telco sub systems for their own diverse national interests too?
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
The NSA is part of the U.S. Federal Government. The boss of that government is the People of the United States of America. It's in the constitution; read it. The NSA will get their asses nailed to the wall because they lied to the boss. If I'm your boss, and you lie to me, you're fired.
Edward Snowden is my hero; he can sleep on my floor any time.
Why not throw in the electorate that allowed the government to take on unprecedented surveillance powers in plain sight? For instance, it was widely reported that the PATRIOT act would enable intelligence agencies to compel your librarian to tell them what you've been reading.
This myth is very common and probably was spread via a vector of TV sitcoms or badly written police procedurals. Where did you get exposed to that myth?
There's a difference between a Judge telling somebody to fuck off over an obvious fishing expedition warrant and police finding something unrelated but illegal in the course of an investigation.
I've seen it spun as him being a traitor becuase he revealed data from those investigations into US citizens therefore giving enemies an advantage, so no win either way it appears.
He served his country above government officials while it appears people who call him a traitor want him to serve government officials above his country. The funny thing is back in the day the people with that attitude would be called Royalists, so I find it incredibly amusing that they are calling Snowden a traitor.
Snowden betrayed a trust. Period. This is the kind of person you want helping keep our country's secrets? Really?
In a sense, it really is about security. It's about security of their portion of the black budget. Period.
This myth is very common and probably was spread via a vector of TV sitcoms or badly written police procedurals. Where did you get exposed to that myth?
I was exposed to it back when it was happening in the 1980's, by family members who were on the police force and friends of the family who were. They made it perfectly clear that they almost never got warrants for anything but drugs as it was easier to do and made anything found admissible.
If the NSA only spied for military purposes on foreign governments
Then the NSA would be part of the U.S. Military, and they are not, and you should have known.
NEXT!
Business deals...monitoring encrypted financial transactions. Congress critters. The President ( don't doubt this for a second ) oh, and maybe a jihadi or two. This makes NSA the most powerful player in the loop. Who runs it ? Who appointed them ? What are the internal checks and balances, if any ? Snowden is a hero, because, while he did break a trust, he did so to warn us that there is a new player, more dangerous than even oligopoly-america, spying in a way the KGB or Stasi could only dream about. If he is ever arrested, he will spend the rest of his life in solitary....so he is smart to stay away, and I hope he lives a long and happy life in exile.
-And as far as what kicked off their shindig, and the occupation (something that has never had a prevailing outcome in the history of humanity). I bet we would have found bin laden quite a bit faster if American Airlines offered to fly every armed redneck with their trucks, guns and ammo from the deep south over to Afghanistan. But realistically though, when we went into Afghanistan and did not have bin laden in our possession after two weeks I'd have decided to turn the place into a self illuminated glass parking lot. I would have telegraphed though, by quietly removing every US asset from the region without explanation, they would have figured that one out real quick and would have produced that prick on the spot. I think we all know bin laden didn't have an iPhone or a Facebook account, so the NSA's efforts here were a bit less than fruitful, not to say they are not required for a different type of adversary like those of WWII, and kudos to NCR in their role there ...
> They knowingly put criminals into high office. As opposed to voting who? Who deserves our vote? The whole bunch is rotten, sometimes the ones who campaign on restoring people's rights and defending their interest being the most corrupt.
> Well, the post is directed at the 98.3% that do..
Haha, do you think you can solve this by voting? The system is rigged. The 2 party system + gerrymandering + unlimited funds for campaigning from rich people = clusterfuck. There is no getting out of this by voting. Now they suppress our rights too: the right to a fair trial, the right to privacy, even the right to vote in for many people.
You appear to be using an example of the opposite of "nothing they could do about it". Clearly they were doing plenty about it. The myth is that it wasn't done before. As an obvious example I suggest you read something about raids during the prohibition that failed to find any booze but still pulled people in for anything else found during such raids.
There is no getting out of this by voting.
Bullshit. There is no rule requiring anybody to vote for the guy with the most money. The system only only appears "rigged" because people are too lazy to think for themselves and always wait for mass media to spoon feed them. They are getting what they deserve for it. I have no sympathy at all, only pity.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
One of the top private equity/leveraged buyout firms (private banks), the Carlyle Group, with the likes of George H.W. Bush as a past advisor, and with the original seed money coming from the Mellon family.
It's more like 56% who vote for major party candidates. You didn't factor in the 43% who don't bother to vote at all.
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Who deserves our vote?
Either the Greens or the Libertarians, depending on your persuasion, would be a fine choice. The Constitution Party isn't my cup of tea, but I'd vote for them in a heartbeat if I thought they had a chance. The Pirate Party is not a bad option, either.
Of course, if you're lucky enough to have a Rand Paul or Elizabeth Warren in your district, you're probably laughing right about now.
You didn't factor in the 43% who don't bother to vote at all.
Yes. for a very obvious reason. I hope I don't have to spell it out.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
I think The Bahamas knew they were being spied on, but I don't think they knew that every phonecall in the country was being recorded.
Actually, it would help if you did. Aren't they part of the problem? If they all voted for a third or minor party candidate, even if they were different candidates, the effluent would hit the air conditioning.
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For anyone falling under NSA surveilance he did right in letting them know, and as we learned that also includes pretty much all US citizens so he did right to the whole world.
Um.. No.
Point 1. My country does not claim to be the leaders of the free world, dies not pose as the world police, and does not claim the right to invade and 'punish' other countries at will. The USA does and therefore needs to live up to higher standards.
Point 2. My country actively spies FOR the USA. On its own people and others. Almost certainly due to strong arming from the USA.
Therefore I do believe I have the right to be very pissed of at what has come to light, and to now see the USA in a different light than before.
It does seem interesting that many in the USA seem to think it is OK to just say fuck the rest of the world. We are all that matters. It would be a good idea perhaps to climb of the high horse first though.
Mind you.. At least my country doesn't owe it's body and soul to China and Japan.
Want me to translate what you are feeling for you?.
1. You are embarrassed that the good ole US Of A has been outed as the local bully boy and peeping Tom on a scale even their friends never guessed. Deal with it. Perhaps it can help you become a more healthy country.
2. You feel he may be a traitor to the USA. Fair enough. Just remember he is a hero to humanity.. Which kind of trumps that. A lot.
Yes of course, this new Obama Bush, same as the old George W. Bush. (both of them far worse than the even older George H. W. Bush).
"The more prohibitions there are, The poorer the people will be" -- Lao Tse
History is written by the victors.
History is written by the victors. If the British had won the Revolutionary War, we'd call the American army rebels instead of patriots. And actually, British sympathizes were called "loyalists," not royalists.
"Pretending is far from harmless"
Truer words..........
resist propaganda
It is almost as if the US papers run by the State...
We are NOT a democracy, we are a Constitutional Republic with democratically elected representatives.
We are NOT a democracy, we are a Constitutional Republic with DEMONICALLY SELECTED representatives OF THEIR CORPORATE MASTERS.
FTFY
--
Hey, four boxes man, are we up to number four yet?
As I understand it, the rules are that the police can search anything that might contain what they're looking for, and can take action on anything illegal they see. Drugs have the advantage, from this point of view, that a small volume can constitute a serious crime, so there's legal reason to look through anything. A search warrant for a missing girl only allows looking in things that might contain said girl, so if something illegal was in a drawer the police couldn't open it.
The basic problem is that a whole lot of drug law, and the War on Drugs, is stupid and counterproductive, and in many cases authorities have a vested interest in determining that something or someone was associated with drugs.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
Obama? He's your saviour? OMG. Obama isn't going to do a DAMN THING but FUCK YOU OVER *HARDER*!
Because I support Snowden and I think he's a true Patriot and a Hero, and because I am disgusted at our Government and its Secret Programs and the way it monitors everything, I have any chance I have of ever gaining meaningful employment in my field.
How is that for sticking to your beliefs and being true to yourself?
Nothing to see here -- move along now...
Gee, I'm sorry you have so much anger against your President. I guess you know that he only has two hands, and work a 60 hr week. And of course he can delegate responsibility, or can he. Now the question is one of priorities. World problems and the economy and foreign affairs is being tackled first. The NSA is being addressed, but not at the speed you like. So, handle Russia, gun laws, Iran, Syria, the Congress, and if there is some results from the research into the NSA, squeeze that time in.
Edward Snowden invalidated Barak Obama's "Government Regime" and life.
Ha ha Fucker you're already walking dead (zombie).
On January 22 the new and real President of the United States of America will pardon Edward Snowden. :-)
You know, I didn't understand this particular revelation. Why Bahamas? Afghanistan makes sense, but what has Bahamas done to us? Is is a harbor ink ground for Rastafarian terrorists?
Lost Race --- a minimum reading level is required to comment here --- strongly suggest you give up on any future comments! --- sgt_doom
Congratulations, you just went full retard.
Your username is MobSwatter, but here you are suggesting sending an untrained mob into Afghanistan.
But realistically though, when we went into Afghanistan and did not have bin laden in our possession after two weeks I'd have decided to turn the place into a self illuminated glass parking lot.
You mean the whole country?
Killing thousands of innocents: totally fine, so long as we're the ones doing it, right? Remind you of anyone?
I would have telegraphed though, by quietly removing every US asset from the region without explanation, they would have figured that one out real quick and would have produced that prick on the spot.
Yeah, the locals must have known where he was. It's not like he was in hiding in a walled-off compound and never leaving.
You are either a troll, or a dangerously misguided racist moron.
During the Obama administration the NSA gained the ability to find out what the user was "thinking" as they were typing.
No one has been able to confirm these shenanigans were going on during the Bush administration.
Also, the Patriot Act does not allow for blanket eavesdropping to be approved by any FISA judge, and to the best of my knowledge the FISA judges were not pressured into approving these things during the Bush years (although they were pushed into blanket eavesdropping between US nationals and foreign contacts, which is arguably constitutional).
All that is to say, Bush might have done the same kinds of things, but we don't have evidence of that, and it looks like Obama far exceeded whatever Bush has done.
Anecdotally, the scandals in VA, IRS, DoS, DoJ indicate to me this is a whole different beast.