Slashdot Mirror
Russian Government Edits Wikipedia On Flight MH17
An anonymous reader writes A political battle has broken out on Wikipedia over an entry relating to the crash of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17, with the Russian government reportedly removing sections which accuse it of providing 'terrorists' with missiles that were used to down the civilian airliner. A Twitter bot which monitors edits made to the online encyclopedia from Russian government IP addresses spotted that changes are being made to a page relating to the crash. All-Russia State Television and Radio Broadcasting Company (VGTRK) changed a Russian language version of a page listing civil aviation accidents to say that "The plane was shot down by Ukrainian soldiers." That edit replaced text – written just an hour earlier – which said MH17 had been shot down "by terrorists of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic with Buk system missiles, which the terrorists received from the Russian Federation."
They tried to edit slashdot to make this the first post
One biased side is fighting edits from an even more biased side.
The first casualty of war is the truth. In this case both sides are trying to pummel truth's dead body into a hamburger.
some murdering of political leaders soon. Both in the east and in the west. Some good old mass assassinations would be quite good right now.
You would think a government approved change, from any government, would at least use a proxy.
I don't think Russian state media should be editing Wikipedia entries especially not on matters of current affairs.
But still, interpreted literally the new statement is far more factually correct and unbiased than what it replaced. Whoever shot down the plane, they were "soldiers" or fighters of some variety and almost certainly can be described as Ukrainian, given that everyone seems to agree that the fighters are actually eastern Ukrainians and at most Russia is supplying weapons to them.
The original text, on the other hand, more or less exactly sums up western/west Ukrainian line despite the obvious abuse of the word terrorist to mean "rebel fighter" and the [citation needed] assertion about who did it and the source of the weapons.
I don't think Wikipedia should be used as a political tool fullstop. posting accusations that Russia was involved is for news sites not for supposedly unbiased material. If it proves to be a fact then it can be put there. The original text is more like a fox news story than an encyclopaedia reference.
And the Wikipedia page on Anonymous Cowards was edited from your IP.
So what does that mean?
Are those 'objectively' known? If not, then what am I doing here?
Btw. does anyone here remember the USS Vincennes?
Perhaps you can post a citation? The first AC was able to post links where you could look at it the house edits.
As for what it means, I guess that was left as an excessive for the reader.
Indeed, given that they've been shelling and rocketing and bombing their own people, it would be fair to describe the Ukrainian government forces as terrorists.
... of distorting the history.
The crash scene is a crime scene and all the bodies and bits should be left in place. Russia lost all credibility the second they started moving bits around.
Are those 'objectively' known? If not, then what am I doing here?
Btw. does anyone here remember the USS Vincennes?
I don't remember the US government editing the Wiki page on Iran Air Flight 655. Rather, the US government admitted to the mistake rather quickly, without attempting to blame Iran.
This MH17 thing is different. Russia has a huge role in this, no matter who shot down the plane. At the very least, the Russians armed an ethnic population in a foreign nation to create a war. And it is this war that got that plane shot down. I think, objectively, everyone can agree on this... It does cast suspicion on any Russian attempt to shape the Wiki truth.
But that was -totally- different. That naval captain made a totally understandable mistake in the fog of war, and while regrettable, the United States never apologises and has never accepted liability. And in any case, it was Iran's fault for still being at war with Iraq, and thus forcing the USS Vincennes to be on such high alert.
Putin is a murderous goon. He and his cronies will get what's coming to them.
Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
I don't trust any of the parties involved. They're all war mongering liars.
Certainly the Russian and their armed separatists are war mongers. It's not clear if the Ukrainian government really wants a war or just wants sovereignty.
Russia is clearly the aggressor here, and no matter who fired the missile, Russian has a huge responsibility in the matter. Provda shouldn't be editing the Wiki.
The US government never admitted it's mistake, or apologised. It reached an ex gratia settlement with no admission of liability or fault years later.
And it, and 13 other supporters in the security council, entirely blamed Iran at the time, saying that if Iran had only respected the security council resolution to stop fighting, then it wouldn't have put that flight in risk.
Check your history. It might surprise you.
Meanwhile, those with an IQ higher than asphalt fault no one yet because it's just too early.
It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
... is good for the gander
Israeli propaganda war hits social media
Actually the US "STILL" hasn't admitted fault in that incident. They blamed it on the hostilities in Iran and then proceeded to cover up the whole incident as best they could, like the location of the ship, breach of orders, no court marshal despite blatant crew failings etc.
> Btw. does anyone here remember the USS Vincennes?
Actually yes, I do. There were various discussions about at what point the crew knew they'd just shot down an airliner, or at what point they should have known that they were targeting one. There've even been various conspiracy theories that they knew it was an airliner all along and shot it down intentionally to kill someone or another who was onboard. But the US has always admitted that it was the one who shot down that airliner.
At no point has the US government tried to re-write history and disavow the blame by claiming that it not the US who pulled the trigger; but some bunch of locals who somehow managed to capture (and figure out how to operate) the Vincennes.
Imagine all the people...
> I don't think Wikipedia should be used as a political tool fullstop. posting accusations that Russia was involved is for news sites not for supposedly unbiased material.
You watch a lot FOX news, don't you?
News sites are supposed to investigate available sources, to publish and provide, "unbiased material".
This is my shocked face:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...
That's great, but it doesn't have dukey-squat to do with GP's point.
A ha ha ha ha ha !!!
And the United State / England have never armed foreign groups to mount wars by proxy? Then you know nothing of South America, the Middle East or Africa.
Get. Off. Your. High. Horse.
I shouldn't be so harsh on you ... you probably derive all your "news" from Western media (Fox / BBC / Reuters / ...)
The US government never admitted it's mistake, or apologised.
Certainly it admitted a mistake. The US government admitted shooting the plane down rather immediately, called it a mistake, and has since used it as a training case in the military for what not to do. You either weren't alive back then, or you have a twisted view of history...
Apologized is a different story. The idea of an apology became a bit of a political football during an election year, with Dukakis stating that the US should apologize and then Bush beating the crap out of Dukakis by saying we should never apologize for American troops. Bush won, and the apology never came. But Bush could be a bit of a douche. He did run the CIA.
a strategy of kremlin propagandists.
distribute lies about events ("oh, ukrainians shot down mh 17 ! they even shot down their own planes a few days before that. we claimed credit for that just for fun !"), then go "ooooh, but you know, i don't trust either side, they all are lying"
so far russia has been caught lying many times. all evidence points at russian special forces (and regular army, too) being responsible both for invasion in eastern ukraine, and for downing mh17 specifically.
please, stop whitewashing this terrible government, it can lead to even more tragic losses.
Rich
Actually I don't watch fox news at all, but so many idiots post information published from it that it is hard to avoid it. News sites stopped doing proper investigative journalism years ago, the majority of articles even on the relatively good places are poorly researched and/or republished crap. Even on the current MH17 it amazes me some of the fake/phony stuff that has been put on news here in Australia as fact, they don't even bother to do basic research anymore.
Donald Rumsfeld Wikipedia article edited anonymously by US House of Representatives
Clearly the NSA wants us to know that Rumsfeld is an alien reptile. Maybe the NSA listens to us is because they are out of gum?
Those of us in the West can't understand why Russia doesn't just admit that it was a mistake.
Meanwhile those in the East understand that Russia will never admit it screwed up.
But still, interpreted literally the new statement is far more factually correct and unbiased than what it replaced. Whoever shot down the plane, they were "soldiers" or fighters of some variety and almost certainly can be described as Ukrainian, given that everyone seems to agree that the fighters are actually eastern Ukrainians and at most Russia is supplying weapons to them.
Not exactly. There is a distinct difference between a soldier and a combatant. A soldier is trained and is a member of a standing military. The separatists can at best be described as "irregulars", or insurgents or rebels if you want to go with slightly more charged terminology. And who exactly is this "everyone" who are agreeing that they are all Eastern Ukranians? I have yet to see any reputable source make that claim. And Russia is not just supplying small arms to these groups. They are giving them tanks, armored personnel carriers, artillery, and anti-air systems (both MANPADS and tracked systems). You don't just pick these systesms up and start using them. They are recieving training, either in Russia or locally from trainers that Russia has moved into Ukraine. And given the fact that the missiles were launched from inside territory controlled by the rebelsis a very important detail. Why would the Ukrainians have anti-air equipment deployed in an area they do not control, against an enemy with no air power? All evidence points to the missiles being fired by the separatists, which means Russia had a hand in at the very least training them on how to use the equipment if not providing that equipment as well as continuing to use their influence to keep the conflict going.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
Why was your IP also used to edit Wikipedia?
What does that mean?
Wasn't there once a guy from Texas who removed the section on crimes against humanity from George Bush's wikipedia page?
http://stephan.sugarmotor.org
First, as others have posted the US has not admitted to the mistake. In fact, they created "scenario fulfillment" to explain away what happened (google it, the first result is Vincennes). No matter how many "friendly fire" incidents the US has been in they have never admitted fault.
;)
Next, does this also work?
" At the very least, the Americans armed an ethnic population in a foreign nation to create a war. "
Both the Russians and Americans have a rich history of funding various nations war efforts, sometimes it even comes back to bite later
Lastly, one would assume MH17 is "different" because this time Russia has a huge role in this, vs Vincennes which the US did NOT have a huge role?
Twitter bots that monitor and call attention to things, or future AI tools we develop that provide similar functionality for monitoring what appears to be the cyber behavior of certain groups or certain people, have a downside, too. Everyone knows it isn't very hard for somebody with substantial financial resources (or a sysadmin who works at a particular ISP and has substantial political beliefs or alliances) to spoof the IP addresses that are thought to be associated with certain groups/nations. This evolving condition of intrinsic uncertainty around digital media and Internet communications needs new technical and social solutions. See: http://slashdot.org/submission...
Whoever shot down the plane, they were "soldiers" or fighters of some variety and almost certainly can be described as Ukrainian, given that everyone seems to agree that the fighters are actually eastern Ukrainians and at most Russia is supplying weapons to them.
is that "everybody" 'russia today' ?
try googletranslating http://lb.ua/news/2014/07/20/2... - ukrainian army detains 23 terrorists. somehow all 23 turn out to be citizens of the russian federation.
there's also an interview with a former warrior from moscow how tells how 80% of them were from russia, with locals not exceeding 20%.
let's bisect the other thing you said - "at most Russia is supplying weapons to them".
"at most". as if they were given bows and arrows. they get armoured vehicles. they get... tanks. they get bloody sam systems that can reach targets up to 25km.
Rich
... given that everyone seems to agree that the fighters are actually eastern Ukrainians and at most Russia is supplying weapons to them.
No, not even that is agreed upon. That are many claims that the "commanders" of the fighters are Russian, not Ukrainian.
Trilateral Commission Wikipedia article edited anonymously by US House of Representatives
God forbid somebody who happens to work for or be a Congressperson spread disinfomation by alphabetizing categories...
City of London Corporation Wikipedia article edited anonymously by US House of Representatives
...or adding serial commas!
You might want to limit yourself to examples where somebody's changing the tone of an article to favor (or mock) some particular view, like the rest of the links.
And, of course, a particular Congressperson or staffer for that Congressperson isn't necessarily acting on behalf of the US Government, just as somebody working at or for the VGTRK isn't necessarily acting on behalf of the Russian government. (Perhaps it'd be more likely in the latter case, but if it were somebody posting from the Duma in that case, or somebody from the Voice of America in the former case, it'd be a closer match.)
Poor shills are on their 3rd straight day without sleep, and over-time pay is reduced to only 6 extra potatoes due to sanctions. Remember to take a rest, comrades. Next week when the satellite and black box data come out you will be needed even more.
It will never prove to be a fact. All people that was on "BUG" (rocket missile system) and launched that missile are already dead.. If you think that Moscow would allow for something like that to point on them then you are just naive. This night alone another 4 tanks crossed Russia -> Ukraine border. We all know who did it and why did it. But like in court room... it doesn't matter what you know, it's matter what you can prove... If it was indeed Russian tv station then it's on direct order from russian government because in russia TV station = government. There is no free speech TV station there.. Only propaganda served by Putin.
There was 45 funerals of soldiers lately in Russia... All of them from special forces... Official version says that ALL of them died on vacations..... I don't think comment is needed here... You have your own brain.
Let me see if I fully understand your position.
Because Iran and Iraq were at war the US was FORCED to be on high-alert and shoot down a commercial airliner loaded with civilians?
I think you lost most at your "in any case" statement as you just know an excuse is coming from the bottom of the excuse bucket.
Yes, I am sure most everyone here does know about Iran Air 655. The Wikipedia page on MH 17 links to a list of commercial passenger planes shot down, that include the USS Vincennes incident. However, we are discussing Wikipedia edits made for the Malaysian Air flight made by a national government. Has the US Government been involved in making edits to that page to shift blame from itself and disseminate false information, or are you just engaging in whataboutism?
LOL newbies (or agent pretending to be newbies).
The reptile bullshit is part of the disinfo project to mix into conspiracy theories to make them look stupid, like the tin foil hat, and that is also EXACTLY why the congress is adding it to the Wikipedia article.
Just shut up, eat your burgers and go back to your football, silly Americans.
Actually the US "STILL" hasn't admitted fault in that incident. They blamed it on the hostilities in Iran and then proceeded to cover up the whole incident as best they could, like the location of the ship, breach of orders, no court marshal despite blatant crew failings etc.
There is a big difference between admitting fault and admitting a fact. The US never denied shooting down the plane.
Claiming that an incident where nobody is even raising their hand as to who shot it down is the same as the Iran Air incident makes you sound like the kind of person that wants the vilify the US wherever they can.
Russia is currently ruled by an ex-KGB thug that has no use for democracy or the truth, if they don't suit his intentions.
A ha ha ha ha ha !!!
And the United State / England have never armed foreign groups to mount wars by proxy? Then you know nothing of South America, the Middle East or Africa.
Get. Off. Your. High. Horse.
I shouldn't be so harsh on you ... you probably derive all your "news" from Western media (Fox / BBC / Reuters / ...)
So has your non-Western media ever told you of the western democracies arming a bunch of yahoos with SAMs that could shoot down commercial airliners?
At least when we arm are proxy forces, we're not dumb enough to give them weapons that make us look stupid. You Russians are idiots for that one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W...
You have to try harder than this Vassiliy
You are watching too much "Western Media", my AC Ruskie friend.
But still, interpreted literally the new statement is far more factually correct and unbiased than what it replaced. Whoever shot down the plane, they were "soldiers" or fighters of some variety and almost certainly can be described as Ukrainian, given that everyone seems to agree that the fighters are actually eastern Ukrainians and at most Russia is supplying weapons to them.
Not exactly. There is a distinct difference between a soldier and a combatant. A soldier is trained and is a member of a standing military. The separatists can at best be described as "irregulars", or insurgents or rebels if you want to go with slightly more charged terminology. And who exactly is this "everyone" who are agreeing that they are all Eastern Ukranians? I have yet to see any reputable source make that claim. And Russia is not just supplying small arms to these groups. They are giving them tanks, armored personnel carriers, artillery, and anti-air systems (both MANPADS and tracked systems). You don't just pick these systesms up and start using them. They are recieving training, either in Russia or locally from trainers that Russia has moved into Ukraine. And given the fact that the missiles were launched from inside territory controlled by the rebelsis a very important detail. Why would the Ukrainians have anti-air equipment deployed in an area they do not control, against an enemy with no air power? All evidence points to the missiles being fired by the separatists, which means Russia had a hand in at the very least training them on how to use the equipment if not providing that equipment as well as continuing to use their influence to keep the conflict going.
Even common sense kind of makes it obvious it was the separatists. This whole mess reeks of something that only an undisciplined mob of rebels would do. Why would the Ukraininans blindly shoot down an airliner with a tactical SAM when they have a multi layered air defense system and modern jet fighters at their disposal? Surely their military radars are capable of reading civilian transponder signals and they could have sent up a pair of MiG-29s to fly rings around MH17 if they'd had reason to suspect it of being something other than it's ID data, transponders and flight plan said it was. As for the conspiracy theory that the Ukrainians drove that Buk launcher into separatist territory to 'frame' the separatists, they'd have had to drive a tacked vehicle with four bigass missles sitting on top of it deep into separatist controlled territory unnoticed. The stories coming out of Russia trying to blame this on the Ukrainians are just plain ridiculous.
That page is merely reporting a press release from the Ukrainian government in Kiev. Are you suggesting we should treat everything they say as factually true?
Yes. That's what I said. Perhaps this is a language issue.
Whatever is happening in Ukraine it is not a full-blown invasion by Russia in the "classical" style that Iraq or Afghanistan were. That would be far more obvious. It seems to be much more similar to what's been happening in Syria where the west has been supplying weapons, training and expertise to anti-Assad groups there. If you were to say the west has "at most been supplying weapons and training to the Syrian rebels" you would be correct, given that (fortunately) Syria was not invaded by a foreign army.
While they may be described as Ukrainians because they live in the Ukraine, they are quite likely to be descendents of Russians and other ethnicities moved in to the country after it was annexed by the Soviet Union.
Already -1? Why? Because it followed logic instead of the CNN/Fox party line?
Geez it's like half of the Slashdot community are NSA/GCHQ agents:
New Snowden Doc Reveals How GCHQ/NSA Use The Internet To 'Manipulate, Deceive And Destroy Reputations'
Yes a lot of funding has gone into "Containment control".
Air Force research: How to use social media to control people like drones (July 17 2014)
http://arstechnica.com/informa...
"...researchers could be used to sway the opinion of social networks toward a desired set of behaviors—perhaps in concert with some of the social media “effects” cyber-weaponry developed by the NSA and its British counterpart, GCHQ"
A push by sock puppets in posting AC stories eg the "IP addresses".
Someone has new war PR to sell.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
By this logic, no one has the right to criticise the US, as all people alive today owe their lives to their ancestors having been successful conquerors.
NSA/GCHQ agent detected.
New Snowden Doc Reveals How GCHQ/NSA Use The Internet To 'Manipulate, Deceive And Destroy Reputations'
whatever nutta.. rt are going to be real impartial..
By that logic, "Saudi Arabian soldiers" were responsible for flying airliners into the World Trade Center.
Support Right To Repair Legislation.
Maybe he's mirroring RT's recent excuses and the laying of blame on Ukraine, and basically blaming Ukraine for forcing the rebels into doing this by not letting Russia and the separatists do as they wish.
Oh yea, I get it... They want us to think that those sunglasses allow us to see the alien reptilian faces so that when we put them on and see human faces we think the alien reptiles are real people. I have found that tinfoil makes the sunglasses work. You should try it.
>>the fighters are actually eastern Ukrainians and at most Russia is supplying weapons to them.
this is quite inaccurate - lots of what you call "fighters" actually have russian citizenship, not ukrainian, they come across a part of the border that is not under ukrainian control. Well, even president of self-proclaimed republic is a russian citizen.
And they are brain dead easy to run
I have read too many quotes similar to the above, but there is just a _tiny_ problem - most (if not all) of the people who said that the missile system is easy (or like the above has put it "brain dead easy ") to operate themselves never had any hands-on experience on any of the missile system whatsoever !
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
Carlos has been proven a hoax. And in any case, the rebels/Russia now have possession of the black box, and have the capability to verify whether "2 Ukrainian fighter jets" were escorting the plane (even if there was no radio communication, the crew would have mentioned something). The fact that Russia/rebels have delayed in releasing the evidence suggest there is no evidence to support this theory.
Right, people must be nut to follow logic, why don't you just call me a "Terrorist"? I mean you guys already did that to dupe everyone into wars, you might even get a raise from your NSA manager!
USA! USA! USA!
If you're not with us, you're against us.
USA! USA! USA!
Don't use logic, otherwise the terrorists wins!
I thought Obama was Commander-in-Chief of the United States of America, not the world.
The original text is more like a fox news story than an encyclopaedia reference.
It depends if there is a citation.
That page is merely reporting a press release from the Ukrainian government in Kiev. Are you suggesting we should treat everything they say as factually true?
probably not everything, but so far they have shown themselves as a fairly (mostly ? completely ?) honest source of information.
on the other hand, russia has demonstrated again and again to be the opposite.
Whatever is happening in Ukraine it is not a full-blown invasion by Russia in the "classical" style that Iraq or Afghanistan were. That would be far more obvious.
and continuing on trusting russia, how about a very relevant example... the invasion of crimea just a few months ago ?
at first putin publicly (repeatedly) claimed no russian troops involved. then "well, they might have helped a bit". after the invasion, "but of course they were our men !"
and europe didn't even blink. so now we got a plane down, and we are just getting "more concerned". yes, that will surely help just as it did before.
what russia does in eastern ukraine is either war or terrorism - although it is probably both.
Rich
Is it not humiliating to invoke Fox News in order to defend or deflect the actions coming from the Russian government? I mean, way to set the low bar and just barely jump over it.
your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
Jumping to conclusion and making baseless accusations then quickly got modded up, you look like an agent, but since you're not posting AC I'll give you the benefit of the doubt:
Of course you can't understand why, because you've been fed bullshit by your media.
This and this will help you get back to reality.
And yet when W said and did nothing while Putin invaded Georgia, cocksuckers like you said that w was a great CIC and potus.
Get the koch brothers cock out if your mouth and quit mumbling.
How dare he not do the work of his cabinet. It is almost like he can't swoop in like Iron Man and kill the terrorist before or during their actions. We need a Robert Downey Jr. in each country. Can never be sure enough.
Seriously. The last president that did good enough for you was likely Bill Clinton. As a leader that guy was great, as he knew how to get things done. Obama needs to play the sax. That can be the only answer.
Looking at the republican line-up, I can only hope Hillary runs. I may not support her stances on issues, but she would make a good commander. Other nations might under estimate her, but I'd hope she could use that to her advantage. The other options would just make the other nations laugh at us. Chris Evans should run for president in a couple of decades. He'd get a large support of the youth vote and support from abroad. Sad Arnold can't lead the country as we would at least get back to the Moon, even if it is to blow it up.
First, as others have posted the US has not admitted to the mistake.
Not "others". Just AC Ruskie.
LOL wtf? Your comment got modded +1 within minutes? Holy shit Slashdot has officially been taken over.
Do you really think your tactic still works, or do you really need that GCHQ/NSA paycheck.
By the way, your comment history on Slashdot make you look like a complete GCHQ/NSA shill, time to make a new account.
I am not even going to bother responding, for those uninformed and are wondering how the fuck can people be that stupid online, on a supposedly geek site:
New Snowden Doc Reveals How GCHQ/NSA Use The Internet To 'Manipulate, Deceive And Destroy Reputations'
ir Force research: How to use social media to control people like drones (July 17 2014)
Comment removed based on user account deletion
> Btw. does anyone here remember the USS Vincennes?
Actually yes, I do. There were various discussions about at what point the crew knew they'd just shot down an airliner, or at what point they should have known that they were targeting one. There've even been various conspiracy theories that they knew it was an airliner all along and shot it down intentionally to kill someone or another who was onboard. But the US has always admitted that it was the one who shot down that airliner.
At no point has the US government tried to re-write history and disavow the blame by claiming that it not the US who pulled the trigger; but some bunch of locals who somehow managed to capture (and figure out how to operate) the Vincennes.
They misidentified Flight 655 as an Iranian F-14 operating out of Bandar Abbas, a known F-14 base but also a civilian airport. That may seem strange to us in Europe or the USA where miltary and civilian operations are conducted from separate facilities but in many parts of the world it is not by any means uncommon for a couple of jet fighters packing bombs and missiles to be launching out of the military half of an airport and an airliner taking off of from the civilian half a minute or two later. The military systems I am familiar with today are data fused with air traffic control systems so civilian aircraft are automatically flagged for the military controllers and they have access to flight plans and other such data but I'm not sure to what extent the military had access to civilian flight control data back in 1988. I'm guessing very little especially on a destroyer off the coast of Iran. The Vincennes tired to contact Flight 655 on civilian and military emergency frequencies but not air traffic control frequencies which is strange since that was their best bet to get the attentinon of a civilian aircraft. Don't SAM crews get trained for this kind of an eventuality? You'd think they'd get suckered into shooting down an airliner during a few of their simulator sessions in military school just to make double and triple sure the identification procedure for civilian aircraft sticks in their minds like the aftermath of a good hard kick in the nuts.
Only to idiots, are orders laws.
-- Henning von Tresckow
This is an incredibly disappointing comment to see modded Insightful. It's a non sequitor, it insults the parent, and most importantly, it adds nothing to the conversation.
I guess you can no longer use the traditional response to accusations of Russian misdeeds, since the US has stopped "lynching negroes"?
Last post!
Putin is a murderer. He is sending Russian Special Forces into Eastern Ukraine, supplying them with weapons, occasionally training them, and when shit happens does the "Russian Bullshit Story"(tm). "I don't know anything about it, its not me, it happened somewhere else, Russia is on the other side of the planet from Ukraine, while this was all going on my dog was eating my homework, ask Baghdad Bob, he will confirm that I was on a fishing trip in Jamaica during this event, along with all of the Russian military. We were all in a rowboat. Two guys got fish (which we all shared). I, being Putin caught one of them. My fish was 75 pounds. It came pre-cooked. Ask any of the thousands of soldiers who were with me. They all agree." Perhaps Putin expects us to believe the bullshit he is pushing. My real question is: do the Russian people believe his bullshit? And a followup: if they *really* believe his bullshit, is there a toxic lead leak in Russian water? Are they all drunk? Is there some mass mental defect somewhere?
In Soviet Russia, 'First Post' gets you!
I went there. I'm not proud.
uhh, you guys make yourself look stupid.
You're still wrong. He's Commander in Chief of the US Armed Forces. Goosesteppers usually forget that part. To everyone not in military uniform, he's just "the president".
Nothing is objectively known about the airliner. Everything, from Ukrainian air traffic control ordering the plane to descend to a dangerous altitude to who detected what, is all supposition and hearsay at this point.
It is my personal suspicion that the Ukrainian authorities were hoping for an accident of this sort and were intent on placing a civilian airliner in as dangerous a position as possible. Whether that was the case for this specific airliner on this specific flight is unclear.
And I'd argue that Korean Airlines 007 is a better example for this reason. The US had been using civilian airliners for spying on Russia for some time and doctored the evidence to remove Russian pilots radioing warnings to the aircraft in order to make the incident more incriminating than it was. Whether that flight was used for spying, was shadowed by such an aircraft, or merely happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, all becomes incidental. The accident was inevitable and the US government of the time was guilty of ensuring civilians would someday die for the benefit of military intelligence. It was merely a matter of which plane would be blown out of the sky and when.
In this case, the Ukranian authorities deliberately downplayed the risk of missile attacks on overflying aircraft and deliberately worked to place aircraft in the most dangerous air corridors that the airlines would permit. That is indisputable. Their opponents were known to be firing on aircraft and had shot several down. When your time to respond is measured in milliseconds, the nearest aircraft identification guide is mere hours away, to paraphrase what Americans often say about cops.
An accident was inevitable. The separatists weren't interested in avoiding one, the Ukrainian authorities certainly weren't. It was merely who would die for someone else's ideals. Whether or not this aircraft was deliberately placed in the path of a SAM battery is unimportant.
Both sides are therefore guilty. Both sides deserve blame.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Looks like another AC NSA/GCHQ shill. This is a geek site, not facebook, you made a claim but where is your proof?
It's really amazing how many people from the US claimed they had slam dunk proof the Russians did it within minutes after the crash, just like 911 they had proof before it even happened. (reported the building 7 collapse with it still standing in the background)
The last "slam dunk proof" all the US main stream media said they had turned out to be a youtube video of a supposedly "leaked" conversation with a timestamp older than the time of the crash, an obvious fake.
You shills are just too obvious, you see, the average American can't even point to Ukraine on the world map so only a shill would be so sure about anything this early with absolutely jack shit to back them up.
The San are pretty much where they were when humanity evolved.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
You sound like a terrorist.
Ukrainian line despite the obvious abuse of the word terrorist to mean "rebel fighter" and
This horse left the barn years ago. It isn't just being misused here it is being misused universally everywhere in every conflict and increasingly by many an overzealous prosecutor.
Language is hardly a static affair forever anchored to ancient texts.
half the l3tters are backwards.
News from two centuries ago - "Yorktown captured by French Terrorists".
Looks stupid doesn't it? That's what you get when you oversimplify these things and assume that the backers are equivalent to the perpetrators. The backers in this case may be just as unpleasant as Napolean or more so but we still don't know which bunch shot it down (the "admission" was poor translation, like "plane was shot down" vs "we shot the plane down") and they all (including the Ukranian military) have Russian made rockets.
except in Soviet Russia
wikipedia edits
YOU
But seriously, this is a terrible tragedy. A blow for all humanity, and awful for the families.
Russians clearly "like" the separatists in Ukraine, and there are clearly Russians with military training/experience pouring into the region to help with the fight- but if the Russian military was directly involved the war would have ended by now instead of Ukraine pushing them back.
Almost like invoking MSNBC or any of the other shoddy and partisan news publishers.
Nobody in their right mind trusts RT. It's a lot like Fox News in that it has an explicit agenda that it doesn't deny, and for RT that is to present pro-Russian views to non-Russian audiences.
They are both war mongering liars, you are correct. But in this case, there's video of the Anti-aircraft battery being driven back into Russia missing 1 missile. That's pretty cut and dry.
The commander of the eastern Ukrainian militia is a Moscow native and "former" GRU (Russian military intelligence) officer with no ties to Ukraine prior to the war.
No-one disputes that. Not on either side, Ukraine or Russian. The only dispute is over that "former". The Ukrainian government says he's still an active duty officer taking direct orders. They even know the name of his immediate GRU commanding officer in Moscow. Russia claimed he "retired" a month before he entered Ukraine.
The "Prime Minister" of the break away territory is a Moscow native. He ran a right wing news service for several years, with the protection and support of the Russian government. He was widely believed to be FSB. He had no ties to Ukraine before the war. He was sent into Crimea as a political "consultant" on behalf of Moscow during crisis there, then "retired" and moved on to eastern Ukraine.
No-on disputes any of that. The only dispute is whether he's FSB and whether he's still working for the FSB.
It seems that it's only really the western media which persists in treating it like a spontaneous uprising by local (ethnic-Russian) Ukrainians.
Science is all about firing a drunk pig out of a cannon just to see what happens.
I thought Obama was Commander-in-Chief of the United States of America, not the world.
For the past several decades, the US political system has considered these to be equivalent. Google "only remaining superpower" to read the evidence. You'll also find lots of uses of the phrase by non-Americans implying that they accept this as fact. Some of them complain, of course, but they often do so in ways that effectively acknowledge the fact of US rule. The US government is now immune from any so-called laws and is free to use its power as it likes anywhere in the world.
Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
I don't think Russian state media should be editing Wikipedia entries especially not on matters of current affairs.
But still, interpreted literally the new statement is far more factually correct and unbiased than what it replaced. Whoever shot down the plane, they were "soldiers" or fighters of some variety and almost certainly can be described as Ukrainian, given that everyone seems to agree that the fighters are actually eastern Ukrainians and at most Russia is supplying weapons to them.
The original text, on the other hand, more or less exactly sums up western/west Ukrainian line despite the obvious abuse of the word terrorist to mean "rebel fighter" and the [citation needed] assertion about who did it and the source of the weapons.
Many, if not most, of the separatist military leaders are not Ukrainian and are instead retired Russian military. So no, "Russian soldiers" would be more accurate.
Subsequent reports showed that he was well out of his depth and exceeding his authority when an ill-conceived "show the flag" mission hit contact with real sea mines (reconditioned WW1 mines made by Tsarist Russia!) and other problems such as friendly fire from the Iraqis they were sent in to support. Under such pressure he was unable to operate and took a variety of shortcuts that resulted in shooting down an airliner sticking to it's schedule. Admitting the mistake in any way was not seen as acceptable so he was just quietly promoted to an appointment on land.
The Rebels meet the legal definition of soldiers. And many of them are ex Russian army so they likely had people with the training to use the anti-aircraft launcher without needing training from Russia. It's also possible that supporters in Russia (family and friends) could have sent the tanks and APC's, but not without the Russian government knowing about it. In political circles allowing others to move heavy weapons through your country to a war zone counts as military support.
A little baby suffered a horrible death and its (dunno if it's a girl or a boy) remains lie on the ground
Proper English is:
A little baby suffered a horrible death and his remains lie on the ground.
I love how media outlets - including Slashdot - are making no effort whatsoever to hide anti-Russian bias.
The Ukrainians edited Wikipedia to say that Russians shot down MH17.
The Russians edited Wikipedia to say that Ukrainians shot down MH17.
Every headline complains about Russians editing Wikipedia pages about MH17. Where are the headlines about Ukrainians having already done the same thing? Where is the balance?
Attack its weak point for massive damage!
They misused the internet so now they can't play with it for a week.
posting accusations that Russia was involved is for news sites not for supposedly unbiased material.
There is something utterly fucked up with that statement. Don't confuse me, its nothing you did.
The fucked up part is that 'news sites' are so fracking biased!
What I wonder is why the wikipedia article isn't locked already.
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
Where do you even buy tinfoil in this day and age? I'd like to get some. It's easily solderable and thus much more usable for grounded shielding, etc.
Unfortunately these days all that is available easily is aluminum foil. I suppose tinfoil is available from scientific suppliers, probably on the same catalog page as the gold and lead foil. I bet it's pretty expensive though.
Btw. does anyone here remember the USS Vincennes?
Funny thing, I once bought a used Science Fiction pulp novel from a used book store (up in State College, PA), sometime in the late 90's. Only later did I realize that "USS Vincennes" was stamped on one of the edges, indicating it must have come from some on-board library. It's a small world.
Anyway, to continue with your question -- yes, I remember it pretty well. And there were plenty of talking heads in the media trying to shift some of the blame onto Iran (that it must have been a martyrdom operation where Iran sacrificed it's own citizens to make us look bad, or that Iran shouldn't have operated civilian and military aircraft out of the same airport, or that the pilot should have known better than to fly on a path directly crossing that of a U.S. warship -- all bunk excuses).
But the U.S. government never denied that we were the ones who shot it down, they admitted it quickly and bluntly.
From documentaries/etc that I've seen there were a few issues:
1. An airline timetable that was used to check published routes was improperly adjusted for timezone, thus missing the planned takeoff.
2. The operator interrogating the aircraft transponder kept the aircraft selected for a long time - which caused it to keep a different aircraft's response after they had separated on the screen. If they had re-interrogated it they'd probably have picked up the civilian transponder code.
3. I believe there had been threats or an actual attack on another ship recently, putting pressure on the captain to not let hostiles get too close.
The only reason that more events like this happen is that the Iranians (or anyone else) haven't actually fired on a US ship. So, US ships accept risky situations that would be likely to get them sunk in an actual conflict. The fact that an aircraft is using a civilian transponder code and is on an airline timetable doesn't in any way ensure that it isn't a hostile aircraft. If somebody actually launched an attack by masquerading as a civilian aircraft it would make air travel a LOT less safe overnight. Either the US would have to stop putting naval ships in constrained waters like the Persian Gulf, or it would have to announce fairly large no-fly zones (extending over national airspace), or it would have to accept losing the occasional ship when somebody decides to sink one (unless Aegis really is that good).
. . . end up on the border between Russia and the Ukraine, in which country do they bury the survivors?
Most people here will be very skeptical of Russian news reports. Especially on this subject. And especially when the same person keeps posting as AC and pointing to the same rt.com article as "proof".
Another uneducated American posting arrogant statements to make himself look like an idiot in front of the whole world.
Do you even know the history of the middle east? Saddam used to be friends with the US, the US supported Saddam with weapons, you can find many video of Saddam and Bush1 shaking hands on Youtube.
So was Bin Laden, the US also supplied him with weapons, the US help trained his men.
Oh wait, you're the same user (linearz69) that I replied earlier about your comments on Slashdot shows you're a complete NSA/GCHQ shill, no wonder.
You shills work so hard but earn so little, if I decided to make a living by being a lying dick, I'd be a banker and run a hedge fund, not a fucking NSA/GCHQ internet agent.
Pepe Escobar is an independent investigative journalist, the same article is posted on other news outlets that is neither Pro-Russia or Pro-US.
Facts or shut the fuck up.
Credibility? Coming from an American? Bwahahahahaha!
almost certainly can be described as Ukrainian
I though the Russian position was that Eastern Ukrainians were actually Russians living in Ukraine. That's why they're giving them military support to overthrow Kiev.
You can use Al, but Sn is best. Al doesn't protect well against many of the mind control waves, though it can work OK for HAARP. Sn can be found here: http://www.advent-rm.com/catal... You are right - pricey. But better than the alternative.
The real problem is that they are working on the neutrino control ray under south pole icecap. Once they figure that out, we are screwed. Neutrinos go right through Sn.
This will put a crimp in Putin's attempt to make a "New Russia" with a more sizable sphere of influence. Putin is a very smart guy; definitely a sociopath; and, ex-KGB (which means that he *remains* KGB, at heart.
What saddens me is that after the Berlin Wall fell, Western powers didn't do everything they could to help democratize Russia, or at leastinvest in a way that started to create a serious economic infrastructure that more Russians could participate in. Instead, KGB and high level Soviet cronies bought out Russia's infrastructure for a song; the mafia got more involved; the West disengaged. Sad, really sad. Now, Russia and Russians are in for another generation or more of killers like Putin and his cronies.
All sides in this are acting like pigs, the Russians, Ukrainians and the Ukrainian separatists. The Russians are and the separatists are throwing around unsubstantiated accusations. Even the Ukrainians are not releasing the volumes of radar (including military radar) and air traffic control data that surely exist. The worst ones are of course the ones who shot at the plane. Since they are hiding and spewing misinformation, it's obvious they are not even a tiny bit sorry for accidentally shooting down a civilian plane. Their behavior makes it look like the plane was deliberately targeted, truly a work of evil.
one) Accident or crime? I'd be willing to give the affair the benefit of the doubt. The fallout for this benefits neither pro-Russian Ukrainian forces nor Mother Russia herself, and was easily predictable. The Ukrainians do not seem likely to have masterminded this without detection, but I'll keep the shiny hat nearby.
two)Ukrainian investigators on Western soil? No. But like we're doing, countries such as the former Soviet Union would still be bitching about it.
three) Is the death toll from spectacular plane crashes overrated? Certainly. Everyone who's flown has felt the uneasy helplessness of being on a plane... if something happens, there is nothing you can do to help. While a war in Gaza or Afganistan takes a substantial toll over an extended period, few modern citizens can relate to war death.
four) Did the USA and Great Britain thrum their fingers together like Mr Burns and say aloud, "Excellent"? Oh yeah.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
Ernest Hemingway
The Associated Press is raining down sensationalist trash over this. Even within the same article they'll say the bodies were seized and taken away by rebels, while both Ukrainian and Russian press explain the agreement, the train provided by Kiev, the destination, etc. It's sad when Russian government news has better actual news than AP.
Even common sense kind of makes it obvious it was the separatists. This whole mess reeks of something that only an undisciplined mob of rebels would do. Why would the Ukraininans blindly shoot down an airliner with a tactical SAM when they have a multi layered air defense system and modern jet fighters at their disposal? .
Why? well because they can then blame it on the separatists, separatists don't have modern jets etc so using those methods does not permit them to blame the separatists (note I don't believe this is what happened but Ukrainians shooting it down definitely does make sense from a tactical and political standpoint)
He is ex FSB not GRU. regardless he seems more a mercenary for hire rather than a Russian agent. if you look at his history he has been involved in wars throughout the world where he would have no reason to be apart from money or simple love of war.
The layers of disinformation and conspiracy run deep with you.
while(1) attack(People.Sandy);
Dude my father, uncles, grandfather, great grandfather, you name it, were all ex-russian army (meaning soviet, it was the same army). All of them were born, raised, and spent their entire lives in Ukraine. Meaning they are as Ukrainian as you can get. Almost every male past certain age living in Ukraine is ex-russian-army, because there was conscription. At 18 you served, unless you can wiggle out of it somehow. So this whole thing about ex-russian-army thing is stupid. Most of you can't get the idea that it was the same damn country through you skull. They used same equipment (including the fabled Buk air missile that might have shot down the plane, which by the way you don't know at this point).
Unless it was done as a false flag action to blame on the separatists and rally the world to Ukraine's side.
Learn to love Alaska
Was my "Yorktown captured by French Terrorists" comment something that you have too poor a grasp on history for you to be able to get the point? How about this then: we know where the missile was made but everything else is still being worked out, we especially have no idea how much control is being exerted over various groups in the region either.
You may be right but it's far too early for either of us to know.
I don't remember the US government editing the Wiki page on Iran Air Flight 655
It would have been strange if you did, seeing that Wikipedia did not yet exist at the time.
Don't fornicate. Seriously, just don't do it.
a strategy of kremlin propagandists.
distribute lies about events ("oh, ukrainians shot down mh 17 ! they even shot down their own planes a few days before that. we claimed credit for that just for fun !"), then go "ooooh, but you know, i don't trust either side, they all are lying"
so far russia has been caught lying many times. all evidence points at russian special forces (and regular army, too) being responsible both for invasion in eastern ukraine, and for downing mh17 specifically.
No it doesn't.
The evidence points to Russian special forces and regular army being responsible for the annexation of Crimea.
In the war in Eastern Ukraine the evidence points to Russian paramilitary organizations operating with the backing of the Russian government and some level of direction. But there's no evidence of actual Russian soldiers in East Ukraine. To be honest they'd be dumb to send any. There's more than enough Cossacks and Chechen militias they can direct over unofficially. No point in sending over official soldiers who could be killed, identified, and drag Putin into an actual war he doesn't want.
Putin still bears full culpability for every death that's occurred, but he's keeping official Russian soldiers out of it.
I stole this Sig
Fair enough.
If you are pointing out that Wiki editing by the Russians really has nothing to do with the US handling of Iran Air 655, then I agree.
Is that really a new video or a new video, or is it a new video? I get so confused because there was a new video awhile back in this discussion, then someone linked to a new video and now you post this new video. Oh, wait, this is a new video, right?
Take your right wing propaganda bullshit and shove it up your ass.
Passport Staging Proves Malaysian Airlines Crash is a Scam
Reading these comments & western propaganda is even worse than reading Russian propaganda.
At least Russian propaganda doesn't explicitly say who they 'believe' shot down the plane, it mostly keeps to pointing out inconsistencies in Ukraine's version.
Quick question - if it indeed was a Russian AA system, piloted by Russian soldiers, don't you think they would be able to discern a civilian plane from a military one?
I'm not saying that the separatists shot the plane down and i'm not saying Ukraine did -
The separatists would have a helluva hard time operating something as complex as a ground-to-air missile, something that requires at least a year of training to learn to use.
Ukraine' military is probably not stupid enough to try to frame the separatists, that would be political suicide if it got out.
But Ukraine has been yelling about Russian spy planes over it's territory, it's military is in a pretty sorry state, and, well, this wouldn't be the first time they've shot down a civilian plane...
But then again, the separatists too, could have screwed up and missed their target...
It's not as clear-cut as either side's trying to show it.
Captcha: horrify
Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat - innocent until proven guilty.
For both sides!
Don't SAM crews get trained for this kind of an eventuality? You'd think they'd get suckered into shooting down an airliner during a few of their simulator sessions in military school just to make double and triple sure the identification procedure for civilian aircraft sticks in their minds like the aftermath of a good hard kick in the nuts.
And these days they do. It's one of those "lessons learned" things.
I, along with a bunch of other guys, once got sucked into lighting up an entire household of civilians in training. It really, really sucked. But the reason those scenarios existed is because some poor bastards lit up civilian households for real, and we got to learn from their mistakes.
The US Government never really admitted, from wikipedia:
The U.S. government issued notes of regret for the loss of human lives and in 1996 paid reparations to settle a suit brought in the International Court of Justice regarding the incident, but the United States never released an apology or acknowledgment of wrongdoing.[8]
We don't believe in radical loony monotheistic religions from the middle east -- we're Christians.
I would like see more technical stories:
* What does the operator of a Buk-M1 actual see on his console? Is it plausible to confuse a Boeing 777-2000 with a AN-26 ?
* If you are thrown out of a plane at 10KM altitude, would you be able to survive with a parachute? How many seconds would you suffer without a parachute or will you die from asphyxia or hypothermia before crashing down?
* How many planes fly over North Korea and Afghanistan? Do those countries have Buk-M1 or similar missile systems?
Proper English is ...
Wrong. 'Its' is correct for infants of unspecified gender. That was so even before we were required to mark students down for gender-biased language.
why don't you just call me a "Terrorist"?
You're not a terrorist, you're an apologist.
USA! USA! USA!
USA is not relevant. The only point germane to this discussion is that either Russian soldiers directly, or Russian trained and armed insurgents in East Ukraine downed a civilian passenger plane. The evidence shows that beyond reasonable doubt and all the past crimes if the USA will not wash out that blot. The only appropriate utterance from the Russian side is an apology.
If you would like the rest of the world to impose a Sth Africa like boycott on the Russian federation for the next half century you are going about it the right way (ie, by attempting to justify the unjustifiable). We will not to be convinced by your arguments, you are merely digging a deeper hole for yourselves.
Dissecting the Fake Intercept Disseminated by SBU (Ukrainian Security Service)
The distance from the point of launch to the point of the fall is 37 kilometres. At the same time, the elevation of the plane was 10-11 kilometres. For the Russian BUK M2 this distance is, in fact, achievable (although with a very important caveat discussed below).
However, Ukraine does not, and cannot, have modern digital high-tech Anti-Aircraft systems in its arsenal. What it does have, at best, is the older version BUK M1. The system itself is not too bad, and could even fit the stated distance. Except for the caveat that was mentioned.
The thing is that most short to medium range Anti-Aircraft systems work extremely poorly in a "pursuit" mode. There are a number of reasons for this, and I do not intend to belabor the point, but you can take it as an axiom that when the launch is made in "pursuit" of the target, the maximum distance of the launch that successfully hits the target is at least half of the advertised maximum distance (in reality, it even worse, but let's leave aside the sad part). Accordingly, the real distance of a "pursuit" launch for BUK M1 is 16 kilometres. What's more, the last 3 kilometres are purely "God willing" and "without guarantees."
And, so, we have the background. Let's see how the picture unfolds:
The launch is alleged to have been made from Chernukhino. The maximum distance of the launch is 16 kilometres. The aircraft fell between Snezhnoye and Torez. That's 37 kilometres, which is 20 kilometres more than the maximum possible point at which the plain could have been hit. You know, even a plane with turned-off engines can't glide like that. But the trouble is that the aircraft was not whole.
According to the pattern of the spread of fuselage fragments and bodies, the plane was ruptured practically with the first shot. Here it must be mentioned that the high-explosive/fragmentation warhead of the rocket has a mass of approximately 50 kilograms (by the way, Ukrainians have an outdated modification, which is only 40 kilograms).
Overall, that's not too little; however, it must be understood that it detonates not when it sticks into an airplane, but when it is still at a certain, and fairly significant distance. Moreover, the main strike factor is not the blast wave, but far more significantly - the stream of fragments. These fragments are previously prepared rods (and in the earlier versions - little cubes, if I recall correctly). And yes, for a jet fighter, that, in itself, is more than sufficient.
However, here we are dealing with a huge airliner. Yes, one rocket will rip the casing, cause depressurization, and will kill a lot of passengers. But it will not break up the airliner into pieces. Given certain conditions, the pilots may even be able to land it. And, in fact, there have been precedents (to be provided in future posts). For example - the very same An-28, which is alleged to have been the first victim of a BUK system; even though it was done for, but the crew was able to successfully catapult out. Which, in some way, symbolizes. An An-28, by the way, is far smaller than a Boeing.
Nevertheless, this has relation to the next part of our analysis. For now, let's accept as a fact the break-up of the aircraft in the air, at a significant height (which is, in essence, what was observed. Allow me to remind you: "fragments spread over a radius of 15 kilometres." The key here is that this means the following: the aircraft (or, more precisely, the core of the aircraft) fell literally at the point where the rocket impacted it. Clarifying: as soon as the aircraft turned into a host of fragments of different mass, the separation of these fragments began due to air resistance and the difference in inertia. The densest fragment flew a further 3-6 kilometres, falling more and more steeply
Or to destabilize the recent BRICS agreement, which threatens the already weak US economy.
Or to get the EU (including France's selling of ships to the Russians, Germany's anger towards the NSA) more on-side with the US, especially in terms of the ongoing TTIP negotiations - which include shipping gas from the US.
Or to bring Ukraine into the EU and have access to its resources (e.g., oil); less reliance on Russia; beneficial militarily for NATO (i.e., US).
Yes, I love my tin foil hat. I keep it firmly on after things like Gitmo, CIA extraordinary rendition, NSA, FISA, Abu Ghraib. Welcome to Room 101.
I don't think black box data will be much use, they were shipped out to Russia within hours of the crash, Alexander Borodai, a Russian national, normally a resident of Moscow and political leader of the "rebels" claims he has them and is waiting for the ICAO to turn up so he can hand them over, except the ICAO can't turn up because his soldiers are blocking them from doing so. The Russians/Rebels are very clearly stalling the handover (they've also been caught removing bits of aircraft and a number of the dead who showed evidence of damage/wounds that would be caused by Buk missile fragmentation FWIW so the whole crash site has become a forensic nightmare in that regard).
So the chain of custody of flight recorders now makes them utterly useless for determining anything worthwhile. To be useful they'd have had to have been left in the exact spot they fell until international investigators showed up to properly document their locations and to set up a proper chain of custody.
Speculation is that Russia would easily enough be able to remove some flight data to make it look like the last location pings from the aircraft came further back to the west than where the aircraft was actually shot down so that they can try and pin it on the Ukrainian military.
I'm intrigued after MH370 whether MH17 was relaying it's satellite locations though given that the company that handles that said they'd offer it for free. I expect an interesting blame game and arguments about tampering to come up if the temporary Russian held black box data mysteriously does end earlier than the satellite data held by Inmarsat in the UK. I'm sure Putin and his cronies will be accusing Inmarsat of making up data when the reverse is true - that if Putin and his soldiers in Ukraine had nothing to hide they wouldn't be fiddling with evidence, removing bodies, running off with the black boxes, and blockading international investigators.
Don't forget, you're on an US based website dealing with Americans, which means you're dealing with people who mostly believe they're born exceptional (very special), is constantly watched over by invisible man in the sky who they call "God" who somehow decided to live in the US, they also believe they are the center of the universe and everything they saw and heard from their media is automatically the truth and the only truth.
So on behalf of all Americans, fuck you and your facts you dumb ass, my god is better than your god and he's going to send you to hell and burn for eternity.
Funny thing is that Russians hate Americans yet their diet is largely dependent on potatoes, an originally American plant.
Pretty sure the replies to this are failing to notice that the AC is trying to make a joke. It's not a funny or a clever joke by any means - and it adds nothing to the conversation - but I don't think he's being serious.
That's because the US is paying through the nose and in return the rest of the world allow the Americans to maintain its cover.
Just the bond interest US pays China per year is enough to cover half of China's military budget. Yes the USD came out of thin air but countries are using those USD to buy land, gold and corporations.
Who cares if the russians supplied the missles to down the aircraft.. It's about who actually shot down the plane.. It's not like the US hasn't supplied "terrorists" (oh I mean rebels) with weaponry that killed A LOT of innocent people, it's not like other countries have supplied weapons to groups who used them..
And it all looks like a big tragic mistake as the plane was 'just' mistaken for a transportcarrier..
Don't SAM crews get trained for this kind of an eventuality? You'd think they'd get suckered into shooting down an airliner during a few of their simulator sessions in military school just to make double and triple sure the identification procedure for civilian aircraft sticks in their minds like the aftermath of a good hard kick in the nuts.
And these days they do. It's one of those "lessons learned" things.
I, along with a bunch of other guys, once got sucked into lighting up an entire household of civilians in training. It really, really sucked. But the reason those scenarios existed is because some poor bastards lit up civilian households for real, and we got to learn from their mistakes.
Yes it is sad how people always have to die before lessons are learned. I always figured the Flight 007 was a similar case, after seeing documentaries about both incidents I see them in a similar light. In both the case of F007 and the Vincennes case it sounded like there were pretty obvious common sense procedure they could have done to avoid the situation. In the case of F007 that would have included flying in front of the guy, nobody fails to notice a Su-15 hovering in front of their windshield, and in both cases calling the airliner on air traffic frequencies might have been a good idea. Having heard an interview with that Soviet pilot it sounded like nobody ever bothered to tell him or his colleagues what procedure to follow when they have get the attention of an airliner pilot, in the arctic darkness, with a bunch of nervous brass-hats yelling at them over a radio link any more than any body bothered to drill the SAM operators on the Vincennes how to exhaust all possible options on contacting an airliner. I don't doubt such procedures were implemented on the double and triple afterwards by the Soviets (and a whole string of other air forces to be sure) and they included intercepting pilots doing a thorough eyes on inspection and providing a description of the target aircraft to GCOs, always intercepting in teams and both fitting all interceptors with tracer ammo on at least one of their guns at all times and making the interceptor fly in front of the target to make sure they are seen. It sure still sucks that nobody thought of training scenarios like that right off the bat.
Only to idiots, are orders laws.
-- Henning von Tresckow
AC here again.. forgot to add the following:
* Western media and Ukraine have been complaining about "lack of access to the scene for emergency teams and investigators" for days but I notice that even in the earliest footage you can clearly see that most of men on the scene are wearing blue "MHC" overalls. A quick check of Wikipedia reveals this is the uniform of the Ukrainian "State Emergency Service". Not a single news show I saw that carried the footage bothered to point out that important distinction, and even worse most of the stories implied that the MHC teams were rebels themselves; by linking the footage of MHC teams working to voiceovers repeating unconfirmed claims of rebel "violations" of the scene/bodies. If the OSCE want to insist that ICAO or whoever is more proper than local authorities that's fine but failing to acknowledge the Ukrainian Emergency Service being directly involved in the investigation and site cleanup is selective, biased reporting and people should know it for what it is.
indeed, in ukraine they are not operating as open as in crimea... but several of the leaders are "ex-russian-forces".
how convenient, isn't it ? both gru and fsb have been identified as "previous" workplaces of many.
there are also reports of some regular duty soldiers mysteriously dying - those are a bit harder to verify with dead bodies being transported back to russia with trucks.
Rich
1) the IFF was in mode 3 so it was quaking as a civilian
2) the radar system identified as a civilian but the operator chose to override the radar expert system report.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
there's a difference between full scale, open invasion - and the slow creeping of special forces, a sam system here or there etc.
russia used this tactic in crimea, denying their involvement when everybody said it's them - then admitted it was them all along.
now they are denying their presence in the eastern ukraine...
Rich
Hy ! Be fair with the OP, from all what we know from Putin's bloody politics and underhanded tactic "murderous kleptomaniac thug" and "elected pro-russian government" could very well be identical in the average Russian mind ;)
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
What a bunch of assholes.
I know I know, I can't believe this is Slashdot.
After reading 350 comments of Russia bashing I pointed out to some of them that Kiev is hiding all the ATC record and MH17 was forced by Kiev to deviate from its path and altitude, and the fucking idiots panicked and modded me down, one of them asked me for citation before I told him to simply fucking Google "MH17 deviated".
Ukraine authorities instructed MH17 to fly at 33,000 feet
Was Flight MH-17 Diverted Over Restricted Airspace?
Americans, if you want to bash the Russians, you don't have to suck Kiev's dick to do it, why are you so afraid? Are you afraid that you'll not be known as the "good guys" anymore? Don't worry about that, people outside haven't considered you guys as the "good guys" for years.
Yes it is sad how people always have to die before lessons are learned
Not always, but you know how it is with bureaucracies ... nothing gets them motivated quite as well as a good disaster.
I always figured the Flight 007 was a similar case, after seeing documentaries about both incidents I see them in a similar light.
Naw, man. I mean, sure, there are some superficial similarities, but the things which actually caused the incidents are COMPLETELY different.
The Soviet shootdown is a simple case of browbeaten lackeys under a tyrannical regime making what they figured was the best choice to cover their asses. There was no threat to them. The aircraft was nowhere near the people who made the call, and was on it's way out of Soviet airspace. The pilot involved even told them he believed it was a civilian airliner. Yet they decided to shoot it down anyway.
The Vincennes incident was the exact opposite. It involved personnel under serious threat from Iranian forces, in hostile territory, faced with an aircraft they couldn't identify which seemed to be on an attack vector. They were scared for their lives, and under an immense amount of stress. I'm not sure how to explain that to someone who works a 9-5 job in an office. Lots of people talk about "stress" in their day-to-day jobs, and I'm sure there's some truth to their complaints, but unless you're a first responder, an air traffic controller, or a soldier in a combat zone, you really don't know what stress is, or how badly it can skew your normal behaviour. We train our people to recognize it, avoid it, or deal with it ... and we put measures in place to try and minimize it ... but when you're engaged in combat and feel that your life is on the line, even the best preparations can only do so much. It only gets worse when you're the one responsible for a multi-million dollar vessel, and several hundred lives on board it.
The difference may be easier to visualize if you relate it to something you're more familiar with. The Soviet shootdown of 007 was the equivalent of a couple police supervisors sitting at headquarters, ordering a patrolman to shoot an unarmed man running away from a property he trespassed on. The American shootdown of the Iranian flight was the equivalent of a couple SWAT guys under heavy fire panicking and shooting a civilian who was running towards them. Both are horrible incidents which should never have happened. But other than that, they have absolutely nothing in common.
I am from the Netherlands, where most of the casualties are from: can we PLEASE stop our uninformed finger pointing until at least some evidence turns up?
None of us know what happened.
Russia or the separatists in Eastern Ukraine might have done this -- although no-one is sure what they would stand to gain from it. Ukraine's own military might have done it (they've done it before and denied it vehemently until it was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt).
For the moment though, we are doing the victims' families a shameful disservice by pretending to know what happened. Their loved ones are currently being cynically used, by both sides, as pawns in a game they had no part in.
Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
Poor little Bush can't handle the truth, here is what actually happened outside the American brainwash echo chamber:
Kiev forced MH17 to fly low
Ukraine authorities instructed MH17 to fly at 33,000 feet
SEPANG: The Ukrainian air traffic control (ATC) did not permit Malaysia Airlines (MAS) Flight MH17 to scale 35,000 feet, MAS director of operations, Captain Izham Ismail said on Saturday.
He said MH17 planned to fly at 35,000 feet but according to the ATC, there was other traffic at that time, and the ATC ordered the doomed plane to fly at the next best altitude at 33,000 feet, which was above the restricted altitude.
Kiev forced MH17 to deviate from its usual safer flight path
Was Flight MH-17 Diverted Over Restricted Airspace?
Flight path image
Perhaps the best visualization of what the issue is, comes from Vagelis Karmiros who has collated all the recent MH-17 flight paths as tracked by Flightaware and shows that while all ten most recent paths pass safely well south of the Donetsk region, and cross the zone above the Sea of Azov, it was only today's tragic flight that passed straight overhead Donetsk.
Strelkov/Girkin's military career would be GRU. His domestic "anti-terror" work would be with the FSB. His current work would be GRU.
Science is all about firing a drunk pig out of a cannon just to see what happens.
Parent got modded down to -1 by the NSA/GCHQ shills within minutes, they are so desperate these days they don't even pretend to use logic anymore.
Welcome to the new Slashdot, the new bullshit echo chamber.
You're also full of shit boorack. Sitting in Moscow being paid 5p per comment? What a sad life you lead.
Nope to this. I'm very sceptical of any news report. But then I'm neither from the US/GB/AU/NZ or RUS area ...
Now - please chat on. But try to make your propaganda a bit more subtle ... and this applies to both sides !
The sum of intelligence on a planet is constant. Nowadays we have more people. When classic goes away, so do I. Copy
Kiev forced MH17 to fly low
Ukraine authorities instructed MH17 to fly at 33,000 feet
SEPANG: The Ukrainian air traffic control (ATC) did not permit Malaysia Airlines (MAS) Flight MH17 to scale 35,000 feet, MAS director of operations, Captain Izham Ismail said on Saturday.
He said MH17 planned to fly at 35,000 feet but according to the ATC, there was other traffic at that time, and the ATC ordered the doomed plane to fly at the next best altitude at 33,000 feet, which was above the restricted altitude.
Kiev forced MH17 to deviate from its usual safer flight path
Was Flight MH-17 Diverted Over Restricted Airspace?
Flight path image
Perhaps the best visualization of what the issue is, comes from Vagelis Karmiros who has collated all the recent MH-17 flight paths as tracked by Flightaware and shows that while all ten most recent paths pass safely well south of the Donetsk region, and cross the zone above the Sea of Azov, it was only today's tragic flight that passed straight overhead Donetsk.
Don't be a tool. The fallout for this is a massive pain in the backside for the Kremlin. Putin may be an utterly evil prick but he's not an idiot that would plan something like this to play directly into the hands of the idiots that want to bring the cold war back.
You're full of shit erik.
And why is that Pino (*)?
Unlike you, I don't go around insulting people for disagreeing with me. In short one-line posts with no further references or links or even hints at an argument. Just conclusions and accusations out of thin air.
I haven't actually said anything remarkable here: just throwing out there that, in my opinion, the current mud slinging back and forth only adds to the hurt of the people who've lost friends and family in this catastrophe. I know, because I live among those people.
And yet that gets modded Troll, and you're cheap shot is somehow deemed Insightful.
Sad.
(*) Not that you should care, but Pino is the dutch name for Big Bird.
Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
i didn't mean that any of these was on purpose.
mh17 does look like an accidental shot - but fully enabled by the current russian leadership, including supply of the troops, financing and the weapons.
Rich
I'm very afraid reading such crap replies. First, it shows iron media grip firmly holding western citizens by the balls. Second, given amount of hate western media spewing against Russians and China right now, I see the great war coming. It seems that western establishment is hell bent on inciting another world war in order to destroy BRICS. For what ? For keeping petrodollar going ? Indeed we're in situation resembling beginning of the 1st Wold War. Just replace Britain with USofA, France with EU, Germany with Russia and Vladimir Putin with Wilhelm Keiser II, Ukraine with Serbia and MH17 crash with assasination of Archduke Ferdinant. Very frightening.
The UK government has been caught editing wikipedia many times, around 2008/9 when MPs were caught fiddling their expenses a large number of edits on wikipedia occurred to their crimes and disseminate false information. If the UK government does it..
How flying 2000 feet higher could save the plane? The Buk missiles are capable of flying up to 66000 feet. Also, minor deviations in the passenger aircraft routes is a usual thing, frequently due to the weather conditions. Stop looking for conspiracies. The plane was shot down by the kremlin butcher, period.
Not really, my ancestors most likely just fled to far north untill nobody wanted to conquer them anymore because it got so bloody cold. Same goes for most of Russian also. The conquering type lives in the southern parts where you can get by by conquering instead of cooperation.
Dunno what China has to do with any of this, but if you fear a war is coming, maybe you should tell Putin to stop? Because he's the one hell-bent on conquering his neighbours, which is what this is about.
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
Russian government reportedly removing sections which accuse it of providing 'terrorists' with missiles that were used to down the civilian airliner.
They are within their right to remove such slander unless it has been proven that they have done such thing.
I couldn't care less whether you're insulted or not. I've read so much BS on this and other issues related to Putin I'm sick of it. The only reason the West gives him the time of day is because they fear an even bigger loon taking charge there. And whilst you complain that it's disrespectful to the relatives of those who died, Putins thugs rummage through the wreckage, dump the bodies on a train, run off with the black boxes and get rid of any incriminating evidence. If it wasn't them I expect they'd be scrupulous in preserving the crash scene.
Don't tell me you're being "Mr Reasonable" here. You're just another one of Putin's useful idiots.
Not at all. Should Putin want to invade Ukraine, he'd conquer it in a week or two. It seems that US (who is behind Kiev) is trying to pull Russia into this conflict just as they did in Afghanistan 35 years ago. Putin is doing his best to avoid intervention, yet I suspect there is quite a bunch of covert support for rebels. Either way, this is banderist west Ukraine who are bad guys here and guess who is supporting them. There is civil war going on and a lot of civilan casaulties - almost exclusively killed by Kiev forces and National Guard (ie. Right Sector thugs armed and officialy designated as "military"). You don't need (should not) to take my word on it - go to youtube and do some research yourself. You can also dig through UN and OSCE reports covering this topic as there are already some available. UN reports contradict almost everything we see and hear in western media.
Oh, USA raised their hand quite proudly: Rogers (captain) was awarded Legion of Merit and Lustig (air warfare coordinator) got Navy Commendation Medial. Admitting a fault would be rather incompatible with that.
Not at all. Putin is doing his best to avoid being drawn into this conflict (just like Willhelm Keiser, BTW). Should Putin decide to go into Ukraine, he'd conquer it in a week or two - given that Ukie army cannot deal with a bunch of rebels for months (and gave up Crimea without fight) now shows that it is in complete disarray. Kiev forces are bad guys here, especially National Guard - ultra-far-right Right Sector thugs armed and called "military" by their president. And guess who is supporting them - US and EU. There are ugly atrocities incited by Kiev on civilian population there. Civilians are almost exclusively killed by Kiev forces and it often intentional. You don't need to take my word on it - do some research on youtube yourself. You can also read UN reports about Ukraine situation as there are already some available. UN reports contradict almost everything we see and hear in western media.
I'm not insulted, though you are of course right not to care. One-line posts like "you're full of shit" don't exactly make you seem a reasonable commentator, which is why I don't care what you call me.
I'm not saying I'm Mr Reasonable either. But it is rather telling that you go around accusing people of being tools or "useful idiots" when those people aren't even stating any controversial opinion, but merely refuse to be drawn into a propaganda fest before any facts are in.
While, I might add, at the same time making various claims -- which may or may not turn out to be accurate -- but at any rate currently without a shred of evidence either way.
I despise Putin, but only slightly more than I despise the West's handling of this whole sordid affair. And that was even before this latest tragedy.
Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
Which is what he already did to Crimea, and is now trying to do to East Ukraine. Putin is an evil overlord, not an idiot; he'll gobble up what he can without drawing too much aggro, then wait for the next opportunity.
The problem, of course, is that sooner or later he'll miscalculate the reaction, like Germany did in 1939, and then another world war will start.
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
God forbid somebody who happens to work for or be a Congressperson spread disinfomation by alphabetizing categories...
So, judging by the reaction to the article (the whole thread from this submission), each and every single employee of Russian state media responds directly to Putin (even those who, say, use their wifi networks), but some edit directly from a political/administrative institution only "alphabetizes categories".
Great American logic.
So who profits? The key question remains, of course, cui bono? Only the terminally brain dead believe shooting a passenger jet benefits the federalists in eastern Ukraine, not to mention the Kremlin.
You have made a very basic logic error.
The realization of, or failure to realize, a profit is *not* the key question. The key question is who *expected* a profit when the action was committed, whether they were successful or not is an entirely different matter. Its the expectation that motivates action.
The simple fact is that the Russian backed separatists *believed* they were firing at a Ukrainian military transport. Shooting down such a military transport would benefit the Russian backed separatists. The Russian backed separatists initially took credit for shooting down a Ukrainian military transport, until they discovered they had actually shot down a commercial aircraft not a military transport. The shoot down of a commercial aircraft was not intentional, a commercial aircraft was mistaken for a military aircraft. That said, being unintentional in no way relieves the Russian backed separatists from responsibility, legal or moral. They fired the missile at a mistaken target, it was their negligence and incompetence that killed hundreds of innocents.
MH17 deviated over 500km from its usual path, the pilot wouldn't have done it unless the Kiev ATC requested them to do so.
Because civilian aircraft never deviate from a planned course, incorrect navigation information is never entered into an autopilot.
Oh wait, we do have evidence of such things happening. And in one particular case a Korean civilian airliner was shot down by the Russians due to Soviet aggressiveness combined with Soviet incompetence.
I've realised why people keep quoting this. FlightAware provides a low resolution track of the flights - about 100 points* for a flight between Amsterdam and KL. FlightRadar24 provide a track with a 1 minute resolution (~600 points, with large sections missing where there is no ADS-B or MLAT coverage).
* They now seem to have slightly improved resolution, but now highlight where the track is actually known. Check for yourself - the tracks where data is available is in green, then they draw a great circle where the track is unknown.
MH17 2014-07-15
MH17 2014-07-16
MH17 2014-07-17
This is the data I originally compiled from FlightRadar24 - All MH17 flights since 14th May - and as you can see, they have data points provided every minute, as opposed to guessing where the aircraft was.
Basically, you've a choice of using a website that provides low resolution lat/lon pairs (FlightAware), or a website that provides timestamped lat/lon data, along with speed, course, altitude and area (FlightRadar). If you're going to use rubbish data to support a hypothesis, you'll end up with a rubbish hypothesis. In fact, you're doing it wrong if you need to use rubbish data to "prove" your hypothesis.
As for the altitude, it's true that the pilots request FL350, but were refused - this could have been for any given reason - congestion (apparently there have already been reports of near misses over Russia due to congestion due to aircraft avoiding Ukraine airspace - I'm trying to find where I read that), weather (which has been suggested by a pilot's group). However seeing as an SA-11 has an altitude range of 60 - 25,000m, 600m isn't going to make a difference if you're attempting to shoot down a civilian airliner.
Russia or the separatists in Eastern Ukraine might have done this -- although no-one is sure what they would stand to gain from it.
You confuse expecting to gain something with in fact realizing such a gain. Who actually gained anything is not evidence, rather it is who **expected** to gain that may be evidence.
The Russian backed separatists expected to gain from shooting down a Ukrainian military transport. They immediately took credit for shooting down a military transport. When they discovered the aircraft was really a civilian airliner they and the Russians went into full damage control mode and backtracked and pretended there was never any attempt to shoot down a military transport.
That's right, Putin is leading a secret proxy war like the ones that were common on both sides of the iron curtain during the Cold War. It's so sad that we still have to watch such a retarded behavior nowadays, what a bad and disconcerting beginning of the 21st Century. Not to speak of the long-lasting harm Putin's 'soviet union light' aspirations cause to Russia.
I've realised why people keep saying this - they're using FlightAware, which uses low resolution data, unlike FlightRadar24 which uses 1 minute resolution data. So, people have the choice of using low resolution lat/lon pairs, or 1 minute timestamped lat/lon data which also contains course, speed, altitude and ATC zone. Whether people are are using rubbish data to support their hypothesis out of ignorance or malice doesn't matter - it's rubbish data.
If you now look at FlightAware's website - they show the known track in green, and fill in the unknown track with a great circle. In fact their [ADS-B, I think] data appears to stop around the Poland-Ukraine border in all cases:
15th May
16th May
17th May
Compare this to the high resolution data I downloaded from FlightRadar24 - I overlaid all the tracks in Google Earth:
All MH17 flights since 14th May
You can see from the image a myriad of data-points, something that is missing from the FlightAware data.
As for the altitude - FL350 was requested and refused - I can't comment on why, but there are plenty of reasons - congestion, weather, etc. However if you're planning to shoot down a civilian airliner with an SA-11 (which has a altitude range of 60 - 25,000 metres), then a difference of 600 metres isn't going to make a difference.
I suppose I'm discussing with some ukrainian "patriot". I have bad news for you. Uncle Sam wants to fight "bad russkies" and he wants to do this with your hands beacuse it's cheaper. US will fight Russia to the last Ukrainian. East Ukraine won't be the end of it. There will be Crimea all over again. There will be Rostov. Uncle Sam will send you onto suicide mission to Moscow. Unless you come to your senses and start thinking and talking like civilized people, you'll all die. And nobody will cry after you. Certainly I won't. If you wonder what is the purpose of their NSA spying apparatus, it is to collect data and scientifically understand fault lines across societies. They use this science to incite wars in Libya, Syria, Palestine, now Ukraine. And if US burns through all Ukrainians, they'll continue ther wars with Poles, Estonians and others. I'm a Pole - that's why I'm freaking out. I want no part in this madness.
As to where the plane was the moment it was shot down, that's more or less just simple physics working back from where the wreckage ended up. They could fiddle with the altitude data to suggest it went below the 32k' airspace floor, but a radar record probably exists to keep it at 33,000. For the eventual trial in the Hague, of all places, do you need fingerprints on the bullet if you have the Don ordering the hit? If nothing else, on recless indifference.
The Russian government is likely the most knowledge institution in the world when it comes to this incident.
Everyone agrees the Russian government is the most knowledgable in this matter. The criminal, the guilty party, is always the most knowledgable when it comes to the crime.
There are nowadays portable hi-tech rockets capable to fly to very high altitudes with enormous speed and precision. They are obviously very expensive and out of reach of Ukrainian or DNR military.
How do we know that it was a DNR or Ukrainian rocket? It could also be a portable hi-tech rocket smuggled into Ukraine by a 3rd, or 4th, or even 5th party of this conflict.
Gah - double post as when I reloaded the page I couldn't see my comment so had to rewrite the bloody thing.
Let's remember that this plane fell down somewher, and the exact spot seems to be indisputable. I don't expect Russia claiming that the black box recorders stopped working with the plane flying for another 100km.
Russia or the separatists in Eastern Ukraine might have done this
That's a distinction without a difference.
although no-one is sure what they would stand to gain from it.
It looks like they thought it was a Ukraine military plane and were a bit too trigger happy, not realising it was a civilian aircraft until too late.
Ukraine's own military might have done it (they've done it before and denied it vehemently until it was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt).
Here's the thing: if the Ukraine were responsible, then Russia would have a vested interest in a visibly transparent investigation and be in a position to ensure that it happened. If they could convincingly portray the Ukraine as having shot down a civilian aircraft then that would significantly alter the political sympathies in the current conflict. Instead, they have done everything in their power to block it.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Doesn't FlightAware have the same data, including time-stamped lat/long, altitude, speed, etc.? For example, the July 17th flight has this info:
http://uk.flightaware.com/live...
People who don't want to be ethnically cleansed or swear to "having always been racially clean Ukrainians" are "Terrorists" ? Kiev propaganda is really rather primitve. People who don't want to be castrated or otherwise maimed and killed by Ms Timoshenko are "Terrorists" ?
How many Russians (or was it "Terroists" ?) did you burn to death in Odessa ? 100 ?
You are scumbag lowlives and you will eventually pay for this.
Before flight MH17 got shot down about 400 passenger flights a day flew on that exact same route. Eurocontrol did not have any reason to close this route untill after the plane got shot down.
When you have this many planes flying on the same route every day its very unlikely to speak of an accident or mistake. Shooting down this plane was deliberate.
This was not an act of terrorism. This was not a crime in the normal sense of the word. This could easy be interpreted as an act of war.
This event has now become part of high politics and everyone is trying to gain benefits from it. All over the back of dead Dutch citizens.
The Dutch are very angry! The way the dead are being treated, de lack of access by independent investigators. The lack of information. The lack of cooperation from all involved parties. And the huge amount of propaganda being spread over our backs.
Right now the Dutch would love nothing more to send military in the area to secure the wreckage and bodies. However this is not going to happen because of all the political ramifications this would imply (can't just go in a foreign country and start bossing around).
The only thing this act may accomplish in the long term is a more unified Europe with a proper European military. As a Dutch cicitzen I cannot wait for the day this might happen.
I find it strange that both the Netherlands and Malaysia are both very hesitant about making accusations against Russia. I realize both countries are important trading partners with Russia/China, but this is absurd. Russia doesn't care for you.
You can often tell who's lying when their public stories repeatedly change, as in the case for the separatists. And yes, Ukraine did shoot down the Siberian Airlines flight over a decade ago. But numerous sources (OSCE, journalists, and government officials) have repeatedly complained that the separatists have been blocking access to the crash site, taking the bodies, and refusing to turn over the black boxes.
Time is critical. So until there's information otherwise, it's shameful to everyone involved to support anyone who is hindering an independent investigation.
Put Mr Poroshenko and the Ukrainian Air Force Chain Of Command down to the figher and Mi24 battle helicopter pilots into chains and deport them to The Hague. These people attack their own Russian-Ukrainian populace using Frogfoot tankbuster/ground attack aircraft.
When those Criminal Proceedings are finalized, we can think about investigating those Russian Patriots who defended their children, woman, livestock using the only suitable weapons - surface-to-air-missiles.
These heros defended their homeland against a brutal, chauvinist force backed by cyncis and idiots from the E.U. and the U.S. My dear Holländers, YOU PAID THE PRICE FOR SUPPORTING THE COUP D'ETAT IN KIEV !
And by American I presume you mean South American since potatoes were originally from the Andes regions of Peru and Bolivia.
It cannot be "Patriot" as in "Patriot George Washington fighting against an oppressive government" ?
You Anglos are hyprocrite scumbags.
You are just regurgitating some old, brown smelly Nazi/CIA-Fremde Heere Ost Propaganda:
" or merely typical Russian lack of concern for human lives."
As a matter of fact, it was Austro/Polish-Ukrainian politicians theorizing about castration and mass murder of Russian-Ukrainians. Specifically, the rants of Ms Timoshenko.
As a matter of fact, Ukrainians killed 100 Russians in Odessa a few weeks ago by burning them to death.
As a matter of fact, the Ukrainian Air Force attacks their Russian-Ukrainian compatriots using Frogfoot tankbuster fighers and Mi24 combat helicopters.
And the final matter of fact is that the nice chaps of CIA-Fremde-Heere-Ost* let MILLIONS of Russian POWs freeze/hunger to death in makeshift POW camps which were merely a grass land sourrounded by bardbed wire and armed guards.
* later called "Bundesnachrichtendienst"
I suppose it should be enough to just hint that it was Columbus who brought potato and tomato to Europe from America. Russian propaganda machine relies heavily on half-truths, and since Russians are so susceptible to those, a considerable damage can be done this way. Anything which can hurt Putin these days will do.
I find it difficult to imagine a scenario in which Ukranian soldiers shoot down the aircraft, but Russian troops are ordered to confiscate the evidence that would demonstrate this.
I don't have a stake in this, so I'm not using the dead as any sort of political pawns. Would it not be a disservice to them if I simply ignored the circumstances of their death?
Americans like to think otherwise.
'MERICA FUCK YEA!!
None of us know what happened.
There's enough evidence that supports the view that the Russian-backed separatists did it. What's sad is that so many Europeans are too cowardly to confront a tyrant; you'd think they'd have learned to do this by now. Apparently it's much more fashionable to stomp your feet and rant at the US, who kept Western Europe out of the hands of the Soviet Union, than it is to actually grow a pair of balls and confront the Russians.
It's OK, in this case your post actually deserves +10 Interesting.
Captcha: Nonempty.
Time is critical. So until there's information otherwise, it's shameful to everyone involved to support anyone who is hindering an independent investigation.
Absolutely agreed, which is why I wasn't supporting anyone.
Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
Putin's hands were caught in the cookie jar and the russian terrorists are showing their true colors for their total disrespect for the dead.
says the obvious shill.
Wow a Putin apologist...who knew...
LMOL somebody likes to drink bong water.
Do want to shut /. down? Because that is how you shut it down>
This is a discusion site. Discussions have by default speculations.
And welcome to (world) politics where people are pawns in a game they have no part in. (Although sometimes they tell you you do by 'voting'.)
Yes, speculation can easily be confused with facts by some peopel. Also think that if there was no speculation, many times there would also no be any incentive to bring up any proof. Speculate what would have happend in this case:
Everybody is waiting for evidence. Nobody does any staements and speculates who-dun-it.
The result would be that nobody would be willing to look into it.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
Sigh. So many people here keep repeating there's enough evidence without linking to any. Care to enlighten us? I mean from credible sources, not just "the other side" in this whole mess?
And if we're going to go full retro and hark back all the way to WWII, let's also remember the British and Canadians. It is a bit disingenious to say the US (et al) "kept Western Europe out of the hands of the Soviet Union" without mentioning the fact that without the Soviet Union all of Europe might be speaking German to this day. Few suffered more than they in combatting the Nazis.
Potatoes weren't introduced to Europe until well after Columbus had died. But it was part of the subsequent Columbian Exchange that did bring them.
Oh really? Poor choice of words then:
They supplied the stuff but didn't pick the target. Pretending otherwise, besides being stupid, is playing into the hands of those that want to go back to the good old cold war days were they could sell plenty of goofy military hardware that never had to actually work.
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Just when I thought Alexander Borodai couldn't stoop any lower in saying the ICAO can pick up the flight recorders whilst also stopping ICAO represenatives getting to him to pick them up the train carrying about 200 of the bodies now apparently can't get to Western Ukraine because the railway has magically been damaged today.
Worse, Borodai has also now said he will only hand over the bodies of the deceased directly to the relatives. Yes, that's right, you can't have your dead son back for burial unless you personally travel to Borodai's warzone to pick him up.
What an absolute pathetic excuse of a person Russia has sent to run things in Ukraine, classy company Putin must keep. I can't really tell if they think they're somehow making the situation better by so desperately preventing any evidence escaping their grasp or if they're just being malicious at this point. Either way they're certainly not making the situation better for themselves and they're basically screaming their own guilty in refusing to cooperate.
Meanwhile, as an aside, Denis Pushilin another Putin puppet and spokesman for the rebels decided to resign and flee to Moscow over the weekend. I can't tell if he's more or less stupid than Borodai for doing this, on one hand his actions scream that he has something to run from and that the rebels are guilty as hell and he doesn't want to be punished from it, but on the other at least he's not just digging deeper like Borodai and trying to achieve the medal of "Most horrible person on Earth" in the process.
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I gave you an upvote... because it's a double post that isn't identical. Quite humorous.
They use this science to incite wars in Libya, Syria, Palestine, now Ukraine. And if US burns through all Ukrainians, they'll continue ther wars with Poles, Estonians and others. I'm a Pole - that's why I'm freaking out. I want no part in this madness.
You can't be a Pole, if you were you'd already be suspicious what Russia's intentions from the very beginning. The truth is, there is close to zero appetite for war from any of the western nations of any kind, with any kind of involvement. Especially the United States. All everyone wants is Russia to leave Ukraine. If Putin is so *desperate* to avoid conflict in Ukraine then then please explain why he's even there to begin with? Oh, he only wanted Crimea, I forgot. But nothing else, he has promised! Don't worry! Anyway, if you were truly a Pole you'd be taking note of Putin's actions, not his words. Nobody wants a war, not even Russia, not the West, nobody. In fact Russia would much, much prefer to do this quietly via political maneuvering and flexing its military muscle rather than actually starting a conflict. However if everyone did as you suggest and stood aside, it'll be a few years and Putin will do it again with yet another country. Just wait and see.
You're right on WW1, you're right on Iraq, but you're wrong on this one and you're also conveniently ignoring WW2. History doesn't repeat itself but it does rhyme. Stick with the facts, Russia unequivocally annexed Crimea. I'm sorry but taking land from another country is sort of considered a "big deal" if you know what I mean.
they supplied the sam system. they supplied the personnel manning it. they did pick the target... just that they fucked up.
of course, they are pretending thy know nothing about those terrorists they sent and armed there for this exact reason - so that they could say "ooooh, it's some innocent, peaceful rebels"
Rich
They misidentified Flight 655 as an Iranian F-14 operating out of Bandar Abbas, a known F-14 base but also a civilian airport. That may seem strange to us in Europe or the USA where miltary and civilian operations are conducted from separate facilities but in many parts of the world it is not by any means uncommon for a couple of jet fighters packing bombs and missiles to be launching out of the military half of an airport and an airliner taking off of from the civilian half a minute or two later.
Not strange at all in the US. In fact, I had my Airbus rocked by the afterburners of two F-16s taking off of a civilian airstrip in the US just a few months ago. It was an interesting experience being right behind them in the ground pattern. The US uses civilian airfields for National Guard and reserve bases. I used to work right across the street from one such facility. After Sept 11 that facility had F-16s taking off every 60-90 minutes with live munitions.
Lol. Pepe Escobar, the writer of your 'source' article is an analyst for 'Russia Today'. The most pro-Putin English speaking source available.
You fail. Grotesquely. And you aren't a nice person.
If the CNN party line is some kind of 'evidence' that 'shows beyond reasonable doubt' to you then you must be really fucked in the head.
You want to be a judge, at least get Kiev to explain a few simple things first, Malaysia released the ATC record of MH370 shortly after it disappeared, so why is Kiev hiding the ATC record of MH17? What is Kiev hiding?
I am not trying to convince you shills, to you censoring truth is just a job, I am just laughing at your foolishness, this is not the good old year 2001 days where you could bullshit your way through by repeating CNN's narrative, the internet is the cat that got out of the bag and NSA/GCHQ are desperately guarding all social media with shills, thinking it can change people's mind.
Americans are afraid to post what they really think after the Prism leak, they don't want to goto gitmo, but don't be fucking stupid, just because you don't see their comments here doesn't mean you shills have convinced them. Independent media such as Veterans Today and Infowars have waken millions of people up.
The "OMG RUSSIA DID IT!!!1111!1!1!!" CNN party line requires total silence regarding Kiev ATC so I know for a fact you shills won't even dare talking about this:
Kiev forced MH17 to fly low
Ukraine authorities instructed MH17 to fly at 33,000 feet
SEPANG: The Ukrainian air traffic control (ATC) did not permit Malaysia Airlines (MAS) Flight MH17 to scale 35,000 feet, MAS director of operations, Captain Izham Ismail said on Saturday.
He said MH17 planned to fly at 35,000 feet but according to the ATC, there was other traffic at that time, and the ATC ordered the doomed plane to fly at the next best altitude at 33,000 feet, which was above the restricted altitude.
Kiev forced MH17 to deviate from its usual safer flight path
Was Flight MH-17 Diverted Over Restricted Airspace?
Flight path image
Perhaps the best visualization of what the issue is, comes from Vagelis Karmiros who has collated all the recent MH-17 flight paths as tracked by Flightaware and shows that while all ten most recent paths pass safely well south of the Donetsk region, and cross the zone above the Sea of Azov, it was only today's tragic flight that passed straight overhead Donetsk.
The US Government never really admitted, from wikipedia:
The U.S. government issued notes of regret for the loss of human lives and in 1996 paid reparations to settle a suit brought in the International Court of Justice regarding the incident, but the United States never released an apology or acknowledgment of wrongdoing.[8]
Bullshit.
From http://www.washingtonpost.com/...
"The U.S. government deeply regrets this incident," Adm. William J. Crowe Jr., chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told a Pentagon news conference.
This is EXACTLY what happened to when the Russian air force shot down Korea Air flight 007 in 1983. Deny everything, stall international investigation, sanitise the crash scene, and retrieve and hide flight recorders. Except these goons don't know there are two flight recorders on passenger planes and they only found the first. The investigation team already found the second recorder still embedded in the debris.
Human Rights, Article 12: Freedom from Interference with Privacy, Family, Home and Correspondence
It was the European Union, which helped in creating the civil war in first Kiev and now larger Ukraine. The Dutch are part of the European Union and now they suffer the results of their own warmongering.
Don't do shit and you don't have the brown stuff at your fingers.
Do you have a source for that? all the reports I've seen suggest the rebels have both flight recorders.
Let me guess, Raven, you're a conservative sort, and what's more, like any ideologue (left or right) you're so stuck up your own rear that you decide to ignore a human request just so you can beat your tired drum?
That's a distinction without a difference.
Bullshit. I imagine you're pro-gun, but that doesn't mean you consider yourself "without a difference" from those gun nuts who go shooting up schools, do you?
It looks like
"It looks like he's guilty." "It looks like she's a witch." "It looks like I can confirm my biases with a selective reading of the incomplete evidence."
if the Ukraine were responsible, then Russia would have a vested interest in a visibly transparent investigation
Spoken like someone who's never left an Anglo-Saxon country. Ex-Soviet bloc culture long ago saw through hypocritical Western circus of "justice seen to be done", which is really just a propaganda exercise. However Russia behaves, the West will paint a picture of blame in its direction, just as Russia would do the same to the West - as has happened for nearly three quarters of a century. So whether Ukraine is responsible or not, Russia's not about to graciously put its cards on the table, because the bear doesn't give a fuck.
When a civil airliner went down near Ustica, the amount of disinformation and cover up was so extensive that western governments cannot claim they have always had higher standards. The moral responsibility of Italian, US, and possibly other EU countries towards the victims with regards to the truth is there no matter which theory you agree more with.
---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
Those Russian Patriots were under attack by the bombs, missiles and cannons of Frogfoot and SU27 fighters for several weeks now. These fighters shot up the Patriots, their kids and women. Heavily armoured Mi24 Combat Helicopters strafed them with their missiles. Air Assault aircraft were dropping the Chauvinist Austro-Ukrainian militas on their territory. Their goal is to either kill or ethnically cleanse every Russian-speaking man, women, child from Ukraine.
The only way to defend themselves against this was to shoot down the airborne threat.
These Heros surely were under massive, real stress. Too bad some airliner flew over this theater of military operations. They deserve a medal for bravery under fire.
What you're quoting isn't an apology or an acknogledgment of wrongdoing.
"The U.S. government deeply regrets this incident,"
To feel regret over something isn't the same as apologizing for it. You can feel sorry (i.e. feel regret) if a relative of your friend dies. That doesn't mean that you were involved in any way in the death of that relative.
No one has found, much interviewed this supposed Carlos. (inb4 "Kiev had him kidnapped and executed" or some other conspiracy theory)
As for the encoding timestamp, that's simple. It was re-encoded for streaming after it was uploaded, as Youtube typically does for most video formats. Primary Youtube servers are located in California, UTC-8. Ukraine is UTC+2, a difference of 10 hours. The encoding timestamp of 19:xx hours on Youtube servers corresponds to early morning in Ukraine the next day.
Are you Kremlin shills even trying? You need to work harder for your rubles.
your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
Is it possible that it was not a missile hitting the airliner but a bomb planted aboard?
Whoever is not believing the U.S. propaganda must be a Russkie. Hate to tell you, this is not true. There are some more people left with a kernel of self-respect inside of them. You lie 50% of time and expect people to regurgitate your lies.
Some fine examples:
* "Emperor of Persia, Shah" (Not" tyrant installed by British petroleum and their Yank friends")
* "Saddam somehow did 9/11" (Not "our bastard medieval friends and paymasters in Saudi-Wahabistan who treat women worse than their camels")
* "Russia is a bad nuke power" (Not "our crazy prez played nuclear armageddon in op Giant Lance")
* "iran is an evil empire" (Not "we treated them like shit until they threw the yoke off and now we continue to treat the Saudi people like shit by aiding a medivalist government,")
Being a condescending twat. That is how I *know* your evidence is valid. Thanks for convincing me and proving your claim.
It all makes sense now.
while(1) attack(People.Sandy);
I find it strange that both the Netherlands and Malaysia are both very hesitant about making accusations against Russia. I realize both countries are important trading partners with Russia/China, but this is absurd. Russia doesn't care for you.
Maybe they (and especially Malaysia after the MH370 cockups) are just waiting for evidence?
The Netherlands seems to have no reluctance in criticizing Russia for it's cack-handed handling of the situation on the ground, but going from there to saying "Die Putin, you fiend" needs a little more proof.
It seems that US (who is behind Kiev) is trying to pull Russia into this conflict just as they did in Afghanistan 35 years ago.
Might like to brush up on your history their, comrade.
The US only got involved in Afghanistan after the USSR was fighting on the ground.
That is why we must be careful about information claiming that "Russians are blocking investigation".
Remember that similar claims made people believe that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. There was no good evidence of the existence of such weapons, but well-orchestrated rumors of "Saddam is blocking the work of investigators" sounded very convincing.
I find it even possible that the investigators (if they are anti-Russian as much as the former were anti-Saddam) make unreasonable requests just to get refusals.
There. Fuck. "There", not "their". Shit.
What you're quoting isn't an apology or an acknogledgment of wrongdoing
Who said anything about an "apology" or "acknowledgment of wrongdoing"? What I was responding to was the assertion from above:
"The US Government never really admitted"
Certainly the government admitted to shooting down the plane. Lower in that article is a quote from Reagan:
President Reagan in a statement said he was "saddened to report" that the Vincennes "in a proper defensive action" had shot down the jetliner. "This is a terrible human tragedy. Our sympathy and condolences go out to the passengers, crew, and their families . . . . We deeply regret any loss of life."
That looks like an admission to me. Reagan raised his hand and said we did it. Certainly one could argue weather it was a proper defensive action.
Even lower in the article, summarizes the US governments official position on the issue:
Navy leaders said Iranian commercial aircraft had flown over U.S. warships in a threatening manner at least eight times before the Stark was hit by two French Exocet missiles fired by an Iraqi jet. Ever since the Stark attack, skippers in the gulf have been less tolerant of such apparent threats.
The US was a combatant in a simmering conflict with Iran. This is the same conflict its been in from 1979 until today. The US claims that Iran was using commercial aircraft in this conflict. Since there is little or no diplomatic communications between the countries - Iran's choice, btw - it is really hard for either nations to come to an understanding of what the commercial aircraft were doing, if anything prior to the Exocet strike. Its also really hard for the US to offer an apology to Iran for anything since Iran has yet to apologize for the embassy hostages. An apology from the US to Iran for anything just isn't going to happen until Iran apologizes for killing some of its diplomats and holding the rest hostage for months.
Nobody can say the US didn't admit to shooting down the airbus, and the US government did offer up an explanation. People may not like the explanation, or agree with it, but at least the US stood up for its actions.
Malaysia and the Netherlands are not in a conflict with Ukraine, Russia, or the separatists. Both countries have good diplomatic ties with Ukraine and Russia. There is dialog. The fact that nobody can't even raise their hand to say they did, or say they know who did is reprehensible. Time for the parties to man up, offer up their explanations and take their knocks.
For people to come here and say this behavior - shooting down an airplane and then claiming someone else did it - is the norm because the US didn't apologize to Iran for shooting down a plane is, as someone else pointed out, whataboutism. And bad whataboutism at that.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Admission, in a legal sense, usually implies not only admitting the facts, but also that there was an error or wrongdoing by the party doing the admitting.
And this has not happened.
Its also really hard for the US to offer an apology to Iran
Oh, um, yeah. Maybe they could offer an apology to the relatives of the people that got killed? Most, if not all of them, never took any hostages in any embassy. Some of them weren't even Iranians.
Nobody can say the US didn't admit to shooting down the airbus, and the US government did offer up an explanation.
And that isn't an "admission" in a legal sense - since they give themselves an acquittal in the same paragraph.
People may not like the explanation, or agree with it, but at least the US stood up for its actions.
If you call giving yourself a complete acquittal "standing up to your actions", yes.
A Finn who saw the scars your attempt to conquer our country left on innocent people. And now you're doing the exact same thing again - you prop up a puppet regime and have it request help. Only your puppet got ousted, so now you're going with plan B: russian troops posing as rebels.
You're wasting your time. Everyone who has the bad luck to live next to Russia knows the truth about you.
And Otto Wille Kuusinen was a Finn and Vidkun Quisling was a Norwegian. Good luck on your chosen career.
Then stop working for a madman.
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
Yes, Pino was right, you are full of shit. Or deliberately ignoring all the evidence.
Contrary to your comment, judging by the huge number AC posts in this thread supporting the Russian viewpoint, the bear apparently does care enough to spread disinformation on this site. Seems very strange, but I can't think of any other reason for so many AC posts supporting a non-logical viewpoint. It would be nice to see the true IP addresses of these posts.
The Russians aren't doing anything our current Administration hasn't done over and over and over again in the last 5+ years in communicating with the US population. Wait! When they reveal that the hard drives in the recovered Black boxes have all crashed and subsequently been destroyed, will their mimicry be complete.
I think a big issue is that the longer this goes on, the less reliable "evidence" there will be. From all the reports, the scene of the crash is chaotic. Bodies aren't being tended to (or refrigerated) properly, pieces of the plane have been removed. At first it was "we're sending the black box to Russia for investigation" and then "we haven't found the black box yet", etc etc.
It's going to be pretty hard to sort things out if the "evidence" is being mishandled this badly, whether intentionally or otherwise.
This might be modded down as offtopic, given that I don't want to start pointing fingers at anyone (at least until the investigation has finished), but I was just pondering the following:
Given that about 1 in every 3.4 million flights crash (http://www.planecrashinfo.com/cause.htm), does anyone think it's rather unlucky that Malaysian Airlines have had 2 flights crash in the space of 4 months, and that both of those had Kuala Lumpur as either the start or the end point? Is this simply bad luck, or is there something special about Kuala Lumpur?
Ukraine claims that any hardware that was left behind was non-functional. It was supposedly later claimed by the rebels that they "fixed" one of the BUKs. Maybe the fixing didn't enable the safety lock (or it wasn't working as intended)?
Yeah. George Washington was a Mercenary for a Bunch Of Criminals who plagued the only civilized nation of that time - Britain.
the current mud slinging back and forth only adds to the hurt of the people who've lost friends and family in this catastrophe. I know, because I live among those people.
Waar je woont maakt geen flikker uit, iedereen kan een krant lezen. Feit is dat die kutmongool van een Rutte direct de mariniers had moeten sturen om de crash-site veilig te stellen. Nu hebben die Russische varkens alle tijd gehad om bewijsmateriaal te verwijderen en de bezittingen van de slachtoffers te plunderen.
ROW: throw it in Google translate. It tells Erik to stop whining.
God forbid somebody who happens to work for or be a Congressperson spread disinfomation by alphabetizing categories...
So, judging by the reaction to the article (the whole thread from this submission),
No, not the whole thread. See below.
each and every single employee of Russian state media responds directly to Putin (even those who, say, use their wifi networks),
In the posting to which you responded, I said "just as somebody working at or for the VGTRK isn't necessarily acting on behalf of the Russian government.", which says that employees of Russian state media are not necessarily acting on behalf of the Russian government". The person who made the edit in question might well have been acting on his or her own; I'm not going to assume that they were acting part of an officially-organized propaganda campaign, or even a propaganda campaign at all, any more than I'm going to assume, at this point, that the Russians had anything to do with the decision to shoot down the plane.
but some edit directly from a political/administrative institution only "alphabetizes categories".
In the posting to which you responded, I said that one particular edit, namely the one referred to here was only "alphabetizing categories", and that one other edit, namely the one referred to here, merely added a serial comma.
If your goal was to demonstrate that people from IP addresses assigned to the US congress edit Wikipedia pages, those edits might be relevant; if your goal was to show edits, from IP addresses assigned to the US congress, that show a pro-US bias, those edits are completely irrelevant - this one might be more relevant.
What we know doesn't seem to amount to much yet, sadly, if we disregard the he said / she said.
However, US Secretary of State John Kerry has said there is overwhelming evidence of Russian complicity in the incident
Until evidence is presented, this is no more credible than the overwhelming evidence of WMD in Iraq and of Assad being behind the sarin attacks.
Russia denies the claims.
Likewise, not credible. They would say this anyway.
Ukrainian authorities earlier released a recording they claimed was a conversation between pro-Russian militants admitting to shooting down the plane.
And this is also quite meaningless, as of now, because of the accuser is basically at war with the accused.
Incidentally I wonder if these militants are less pro-Russian than they are anti-Kiev (post coup).
Meanwhile, though, there are at least some relatively positive developments:
Pro-Russian separatists say they have found the plane's "black box" flight recorders and have agreed to hand them over to Malaysian investigators who are in Ukraine.
Dutch forensic scientists have also arrived to start work on identifying bodies.
Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
If you think I'm conservative and pro-gun, then you've clearly never read any of my other posts. In fact, if your entire reply is not just an ad hominem, but one attacking views that are diametrically opposed to the ones that I've publicly stated on numerous occasions, I can only assume that you are completely lacking any meaningful responses.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Malaysian Airlines plane crash: Russian military unveil data on MH17 incident over Ukraine (FULL)
Ukrainian Su-25 fighter detected in close approach to MH17 before crash - Moscow
Ukraine moved their Buk-M1 near the crash area on the same day MH17 was shot down.
Ukrainian Su-25 fighter was detected being close to MH17 before the crash.
Also turns out the supposed "slam dunk" proof, the supposed video catching Russians smuggling missile system back to Russia, was another lie, the advertising board proved where and when the video was taken, and the area was controled by Ukraine at the time, Russia is now asking Ukraine what they were moving.
The video is 29 minutes long and has tons of facts to bust Ukraine's lies wide open.
Ukrainian Su-25 fighter detected in close approach to MH17 before crash - Moscow
The Russian military detected a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter jet gaining height towards the MH17 Boeing on the day of the catastrophe. Kiev must explain why the military jet was tracking the passenger airplane, the Russian Defense Ministry said.
ÃoeA Ukraine Air Force military jet was detected gaining height, itÃ(TM)s distance from the Malaysian Boeing was 3 to 5km,Ã said the head of the Main Operations Directorate of the HQ of RussiaÃ(TM)s military forces, Lieutenant-General Andrey Kartopolov speaking at a media conference in Moscow on Monday.
Ãoe[We] would like to get an explanation as to why the military jet was flying along a civil aviation corridor at almost the same time and at the same level as a passenger plane,Ã he stated.
ÃoeThe SU-25 fighter jet can gain an altitude of 10km, according to its specification,Ã he added. ÃoeItÃ(TM)s equipped with air-to-air R-60 missiles that can hit a target at a distance up to 12km, up to 5km for sure.Ã
The presence of the Ukrainian military jet can be confirmed by video shots made by the Rostov monitoring center, Kartopolov stated.
At the moment of the MH17 crash an American satellite was flying over the area of eastern Ukraine, according to RussiaÃ(TM)s Defense Ministry. It urged the US to publish the space photos and data captured by it.
Ukrainian Buk missile system transported to militia-held area
image shows a radar station near Donetsk.
Images from this area were also made on July 17. One should notice that the missile launcher is absent [from the scene]. Image number five shows the Buk missile system in the morning of the same day in the area of settlement Zaroschinskoe Ã" 50km south of Donetsk and 8km south of Shakhtyorsk
In addition, MH17 crashed within the operating zone of the Ukrainian armyÃ(TM)s self-propelled, medium-range surface-to-air ÃBukÃ(TM) missile systems, the Russian general said.
ÃoeWe have space images of certain places where the UkraineÃ(TM)s air defense was located in the southeast of the country,Ã Kartapolov noted.
The first three shots that were shown by the general are dated July 14. The images show Buk missile launch systems in about 8km northwest of the city of Lugansk Ã" a self-propelled vehicle and two launchers, according to the military official.
Another image shows a radar station near Donetsk.
The question that has to be answered is why the missile system appeared in the area controlled by the local militia forces shortly before the catastrophe, he stated.
Images taken on July 18 show that the missile systems left the area of the MH17 crash on July 17, the military official said.
Kartapolov also pointed to the fact that on the day of the plane crash U
That's a lot of what I wanted to say. If you don't have a citation, it doesn't go on wikipedia. If you can prove all this shit, then post away.
In Canada, if you post information like this you are guilty of "Seditious Libel" and are sentenced to 14 years in prison. I can't imagine what will happen in freedom-loving Russia if that's what Canada will do.
Sadly, a Libertarian cannot force his views on another, and freedom cannot spread as does the cancer known as religion.
Admission, in a legal sense, usually implies not only admitting the facts, but also that there was an error or wrongdoing by the party doing the admitting.
I'm glad you are not my attorney, it sounds as though you are working off the Code of Hammurabi. In regards to most US and EU laws, you are conflating an admission of an act with an admission of guilt. For instance, one can admit to shooting someone, but can be found non-guilty by reason of self defense, insanity, etc. At least in cultures dominated by US/EU, defending oneself by denying facts is usually the worst defense. Maybe that works in cultures dominated by the Russia, China, and Mullahs/Ayatollahs... I'm glad I don't live in those places.
The only people assigning motive and guilt to the MH17 flight shooting seem to be the Ukrainians, who are going out of there way to call this "Terrorism". I think most rational people in the US/EU world are reading this incident something like this: Some drunk yahoos accidentally shot down an airliner with a sophisticated weapon system. I think we all know that the Russians supplied the yahoos with the weapon system which make Putin look bad. No one believes this was terrorism or an intentional attack on an airliner, but we all know, from all the topless pictures, how much Putin hates to look bad.
Russia or the separatists in Eastern Ukraine might have done this -- although no-one is sure what they would stand to gain from it. Ukraine's own military might have done it (they've done it before and denied it vehemently until it was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt).
Nobody seriously thinks that Russia did this, per se. Do many of us think that they armed separatists who did it? Yes. Really, you're going to play the "But what would they have to gain?" card? It's not about gain, it's about incompetence. It's generally thought that the separatists thought it was a Ukrainian military plane. As far the old "Ukraine has done it before" charge goes, I talked about this one last week, you are referring to the Siberian Airlines flight 1812 shootdown of Oct. 2001, no doubt. Well, at first Ukraine sort of admitted it, sort of denied it. There's still talk in some circles that President Kuchma, a buddy of sorts of Putin, agreed to take the heat on this one in exchange for some sort of future favor, although I have no idea what he got out of it. Ukraine played up their hillbilly role by basically saying "We think a reflection off the water caused this terrible accident. We so stupid! Not know what we do! Duh!" Well, it's certainly possible that their military did it, but I can't rule out that they just took the blame to save Putin's face. I've been to Ukraine and in those days, there was a lot of scraping and bowing in the direction of Mother Russia so I certainly think it's possible that Ukraine just claimed to do it to make Russia look good.
I am from the Netherlands, where most of the casualties are from: can we PLEASE stop our uninformed finger pointing until at least some evidence turns up?
None of us know what happened.
Russia or the separatists in Eastern Ukraine might have done this -- although no-one is sure what they would stand to gain from it. Ukraine's own military might have done it (they've done it before and denied it vehemently until it was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt).
When did they do this before? If they had, we would have definitely heard about it because YOUR dictator Putin would never shut up about it if it did. Fuck off, Russian troll!
Geen punt joh, doe ik wel even.
Translation of parent post:
Where you live doesn't fucking matter, everyone can read the papers. Fact is that that cunt retard Rutte should have immediately sent in the marines to secure the crash site. Now those Russian swine have had the time to remove evidence and loot the victims' possessions.
Look, I understand the sentiment. I honestly do. Even the suggestion to send our own strong men, though it is preposterous and you know it.
It just seems to me that the surest way to guarantee that this tragedy will just keep on escalating from what should be first and foremost about the victims and their families, is this rush to conclusions and consequences in this volatile geopolitical powder keg. Except, you know, with nukes.
Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
"The Soviet shootdown is a simple case of browbeaten lackeys under a tyrannical regime making what they figured was the best choice to cover their asses. There was no threat to them. "
It must be so nice to know everything for sure. I'm really envious of you.
"In 1983, Cold War tensions between the US and USSR had escalated to a level not seen since the Cuban Missile Crisis because of several factors. These included the United States' Strategic Defense Initiative, its planned deployment of Pershing II missiles in Europe in March and April, and FleetEx '83, the largest fleet exercise held to date in the North Pacific.[26] The military hierarchy of the Soviet Union (particularly the old guard led by Soviet General Secretary Yuri Andropov and Soviet Defense Minister Dmitry Ustinov) viewed these actions as bellicose and destabilizing; they were deeply suspicious of US President Ronald Reagan's intentions and openly fearful he was planning a first strike nuclear attack against the Soviet Union. These fears culminated in Operation RYAN, the code name for a secret intelligence gathering program initiated by Andropov to detect a potential nuclear sneak attack which he believed Reagan was plotting.[27]
Aircraft from USS Midway and USS Enterprise repeatedly overflew Soviet military installations in the disputed Kurile Islands during FleetEx '83,[28] resulting in the dismissal or reprimanding of Soviet military officials who had been unable to shoot them down.[29] On the Soviet side, Operation RYAN was expanded.[29] Lastly, there was a heightened alert around the Kamchatka Peninsula at the time KAL 007 was in the vicinity, because of a Soviet missile test that was scheduled for the same day. A United States Air Force RC-135 reconnaissance aircraft flying in the area was monitoring the missile test off the peninsula.[30]"
Um, where in my post did I say who was responsible? All I did was give my reasons for not believing that MH17 was "over 500km from its usual path", and providing data to support my reasoning. You continue to solely use FlightAware as supporting evidence, even though I have demonstrated that their data [as provided in their basic maps] is not accurate enough to jump to conclusion that MH17 was off it's usual flight path.
At least explain to me why the FlightRadar24 data (with a 1 minute resolution) doesn't agree with your assertations?
Again with the altitude - please explain why you would need to reduce the altitude of civilian airliner by 600m, even though it was flying at less than half the maximum altitude of an SA-11
Oh, and why have I been "accused" of being an American?
So, in a nutshell, the difference according to you is that the Korean jet was shot down by the evil commies and the Iranian jet was shot down by the American heroes.
Yep. I am convinced.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
Fair point - they do have that timestamps, etc - however they don't use their hi-res data when rendering the track - they also insist on draw points that are unknown - hence the utter confusion being caused (especially with those with an axe to grind*).
* I've been called a shill, but nowhere have I made an assumption over who was responsible - MH17 appears to have been shot down (there's evidence of shrapnel in multiple photos). Whether it was a SAM or AAM, I don't know. I do however get pissed of when people don't think about the information they're looking at, and post it without considering how valid it may be.
Also, you'll notice from the 16th July data pretty much the whole flight from the Poland-Ukraine border to India is estimated (great circle between two known ASD-B points). The FlightRadar24 data has ADS-B data all the way from Amsterdam to Turkmenistan - then they have a gap in their data (which they don't draw, as drawing points you don't know is bad practice) until Pakistan. From what I can tell, FlightRadar24's coverage is far better.
I've also watched [on Russia Today's youtube channel] the Kremlin's presentation on how MH17 was diverted. That diversion wasn't reflected the ADS-B data (although Russian military's should be more accurate**) - it'll be interesting to see what the FDR comes back with.
** What I'm struggling with is the orientation of the chart shown - if it's North-Up, then they're saying MH17 was flying due west when it was directed out of the corridor, where as the ADS-B data show it flying a "fairly" consistent 118 deg.
FWIW, my *GUESS* is that this wasn't planned. Somebody the other day said that this kind of rocket launcher can be set to automaticaly fire on anything passing overhead. That sounds to me quite plausible. So my guess is that somebody set it up on automatic, and took a break when they shouldn't have, or that they were assigned to do something else, so the left the launcher on automatic, or that it was lunch time, so..... etc.
As to WHO the negligent party was, it's plausibly the separtists, it's plausibly some Russian advisor who was detached to help them, it's plausibly anyone who had one of these launchers. It's the kind of stupid thing people do when they're confused and harried. It probably wasn't the Russian troops. This isn't the kind of thing people do when they're part of a standing chain of command.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
I have to say that I think Rutte is handling this situation as well as anyone could. Sending in special forces is against international law and a recipe for disaster. Poetin has more special forces than we do and is diabolical enough to actually send them in.
The problem is that a more aggressive stance does not neccesarily speed up the process.
They misidentified Flight 655 as an Iranian F-14 operating out of Bandar Abbas, a known F-14 base but also a civilian airport. That may seem strange to us in Europe or the USA where miltary and civilian operations are conducted from separate facilities but in many parts of the world it is not by any means uncommon for a couple of jet fighters packing bombs and missiles to be launching out of the military half of an airport and an airliner taking off of from the civilian half a minute or two later.
Joint civil-military airports may be uncommon in Europe and the USA, but they very much DO exist .
Wow. Just... wow.
This really isn't a good day for you, is it AC?
Perhaps you need a bit more training in propaganda techniques -- doesn't seem like the first class took very well.
Yes, and it was Elvis himself who pressed the button to launch, after Bigfoot carried the missile launcher from Russia.
Even russion blogers are capable of founding and validating the facts, Ukraine has nothing with incident (in russian, use google translate):
http://avva.livejournal.com/2787603.html
There are no pro russian militants, only russian oficers infiltrated in this area. They are using the latest version - modern weapons produced in Russia.
Even russians do not believe information given from russian govermant. Russians are simply proud of Putin in the way he fools western people. Russians sees western citicezens as rich, uneducated and lazy fools capable of nothing. Russians do not afraid to die to achieving their state goals. Western people are seen as faint whese give up on everthing to save their asses.
please stop spamming. however this turns out (and whether this turns out to be true or not), you've made your point.
and by the way, fuck you, spammer.
Hindsight is 20-20.
Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
Exactly. Russia never even denied involvement. Putin's statement was bluntly "it happened in Ukrainian airspace, hence it's Ukraine's responsibility", while Lavrov ham-handedly contested Ukraine's calling it a terrorist attack. They're all too aware there's far too much incriminating evidence out there to sweep under the rug, hence they're going into damage control. And for all the finesse they used to make the US look like irresponsible warmongers in the Syrian chemical weapons debacle, they're acting laughably clumsy now that they're at the receiving end.
My guess is that the Russians gave their people/proxies in eastern Ukraine enough training to shoot something down, but not to clearly ascertain what they were shooting at. An SA-11 radar system is not as easy to operate as the microwave oven in your kitchen; it takes a lot of training for people to use these things effectively, and it probably wasn't a high priority for the local commanders, as their marching orders were: "covertly create as much provocation and chaos as possible in Eastern Ukraine so that Russia gets the best possible bargaining position once the peace negotiations start". They basically got what they deserved; something like this was just waiting to happen. I would feel wryly satisfied to see the higher-ups in Russia caught utterly by surprise, except that the tragic death of so many innocent people takes all the joy out of it.
Yeah, in territory they don't control. This is stupid even for a conspiracy theory.
Worse, Borodai has also now said he will only hand over the bodies of the deceased directly to the relatives. Yes, that's right, you can't have your dead son back for burial unless you personally travel to Borodai's warzone to pick him up.
I wonder if he will insist the relatives bring the chargers for the computers, cell phones, and cameras that were stolen off of the dead passengers?
There are a large number of proven false flag operations, but even suggesting it's possible is insane? By that measure, rainbows are insane. I can't see one now, so they are obviously uncommon enough that anyone who claims to see one must be lying, right?
Learn to love Alaska
...unlike FlightRadar24 which uses 1 minute resolution data....
You're placing rather too much faith in FlightRadar24 I'm afraid, as all enthusiasts tend to do.
The simple fact is that the Russian backed separatists *believed* they were firing at a Ukrainian military transport.
The simple fact is that neither you nor anyone else knows that at all, and it hasn't been established that Russia has even given the separatists anti-aircraft missiles not to mention the training required. Moscow might provide subtle help, but not that kind of help. Ukraine, on the other hand does, and they've already shot down an airliner with them before. That's the only 'very basic logic error' here.
That's fine. But remember anyone can have an opinion. But thank good for diplomacy...but this isn't diplomacy.org.
The fact is the crime scene has been compromised.
The analogy is that the crime scene is under control of the criminals.
There is everything to gain from doing little more than for *those who control the ground* to secure the perimeters of the crash site to those a more adept at investigating the scene - this was not done.
Russia is screwed and knows. Buying time is all they have and when that runs out - shit will hit the fan.
By the way - Russia is known for keeping the straightest of straight faces, making be most embarrassing and asurd claims. And the chain smoking fake medic/rebel idiots and their leaders seem to be doing a awesome job looking guilty.
So, going against the established party line of the west when NO investigation has been conducted, let alone concluded, is a 'conspiracy'?
As far as I can see this is just about as credible as the assumption that this was done by Russian separatists.
Next week when the satellite and black box data come out you will be needed even more.
Good luck with that ;-).
My guess is that the Russians gave their people/proxies in eastern Ukraine enough training to shoot something down, but not to clearly ascertain what they were shooting at.
Errrrr, no. Russians don't do that nor are they going to provide any equipment that will incriminate them. People forget that for all westerners believe they are a bunch of irresponsible peasants these people play a heck of a lot of chess, which means they sit back, investigate, take stock and when they make their move you don't even knows it's happened. Russia is not some tinpot country in some backwater and that's what makes the current situation so dangerous.
When did they do this before? If they had, we would have definitely heard about it because YOUR dictator Putin would never shut up about it if it did. Fuck off, Russian troll!
Let me Google that for you you idiot:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...
Put simply, we already know Ukraine has the equipment, and they've used it.
Dunno what China has to do with any of this, but if you fear a war is coming, maybe you should tell Putin to stop? Because he's the one hell-bent on conquering his neighbours, which is what this is about.
The only country hell-bent on war is the United States because their power and influence in the world is waning and the sun is very rapidly setting on their empire, such that it is.
The US only got involved in Afghanistan after the USSR was fighting on the ground.
You think that if it gives you comfort.
The Russians didn't supply them with the weapons system...they publicly seized them a while back and then tried to recently say they had no such weapons.
Edward Snowden must be very proud of his new country! Hope he enjoys the borscht!
My karma is bad. Don't get too close!!!
How so? Are the points often grossly inaccurate (out by 10s of km), are the timestamps invalid, do they simply make up data? If you can tell me why the data shouldn't be relied upon (or at least believed), I'm willing to listen.
The reason I'm pushing FlightRadar24 is because the data is there. I also am "trusting" that their data is real because they show gaps in the data as opposed to filling estimated positions in the track between known points. This means that people are less likely to jump to conclusions because they don't realise they're looking at an estimated great circle track.
I've seen no kinks in the tracks to imply that the data is jumping around, or that the points are collected out of order. What I've read about ADS-B gives me no reason to think that the positions and data shouldn't be accurate - otherwise Australia, the US and EU wouldn't be requiring it for some aircraft.
So we're left with the receiving stations - is it possible that amateur receivers are pushing corrupt data to the website, though from what I've read:
ADS-B messages (transmitted every sec without interrogation, with (plane symbol) or without (ball symbol) position, Mode-S downlink format=17) are encoded together with an unambigious 24-bit CRC checksum and would be discarded by a proper decoder if that checksum is false
so receivers shouldn't be doing that.
So, as far as I can tell, we're left with purposely corrupted data, which I'd like to think wouldn't happen, or if it did would be picked up by users.
I don't think black box data will be much use, they were shipped out to Russia within hours of the crash...
Actually, they were recently handed over to Malaysian officials: MH17 crash: Rebels hand over black boxes.
People will pass up steak once a week, for crap every day.
the Russians are clearly supplying the separatists with weapons and trained crews
"Trained crew" is a stretch. A well-trained crew would have made a positive identification before launching. Perhaps there was an IFF signal that would have saved MH17, if it had been paid attention to. The Russians are supplying this assistance to hotheads with little regard for human life (they shoot at anything flying over their self-proclaimed "republic").
That that is is that that that that is not is not.
Sending in special forces is against international law ...
For the Dutch, but arguably the Malaysians would be within their rights to respond militarily to this attack on Malaysian territory (i.e. ship). Of course just because you are permitted to do something doesn't mean it's a good idea.
The Lady doth protest too much, methinks.
Your post is yet more evidence of Russian guilt. Such an obvious shill clumsily attempting to cover up Russian culpability. You think we can't smell Astroturf and disinformation here in the West? Keep on posting friend, keep on telling us we're "fucked in the head." Every time you do you simply confirm what we already know. You're not making any friends.
At first I thought separatists were responsible, but the furious desperation with which you guys are being deployed increasingly suggests that Russian troops themselves shot down MH17.
Like the GP wrote: Putin is a murderous goon. He and his cronies will get what's coming to them. Each of your posts is simply helping him to dig his own grave.
Straight from the script, eh Vassily?
these people play a heck of a lot of chess, which means they sit back, investigate, take stock and when they make their move you don't even knows it's happened.
When your options are suitably constrained by outside forces (e.g., political upset from direct confirmation of non-uniformed military action on foreign soil), your actions becomes more predictable and telling.
Bullshit. There are plenty of reasons but shooting down a commercial jet resulting in Putin wasting time dealing with the fallout is not a sensible reason no matter what loonies beyond the far right that want to restart the cold war think. Implying that there was an order from Moscow to shoot it down is beyond the far side of crazy IMHO.
I suspect https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik...
Casteism
you are changing the claim and then refuting it.
the claim is that terrorists shot down something, thinking it's an ukrainian transport plane... except that it was not.
this is confirmed even by their own boasting (which they quickly removed after they saw what fell out of that plane)
Rich
Both entries in Wikipedia are opinions of the respective authors. Better is "allegedly shot down by seperatists" or something like that. Though I find the first opinion the most likely one.
Rescue workers say they have recovered one of the plane's "black box" flight recorders, while pro-Russian separatists are said to have discovered the second black box.
But I see that has just been superseded by what appears to be a rebel handover of two flight recorders. Fog of war...
Human Rights, Article 12: Freedom from Interference with Privacy, Family, Home and Correspondence
Because you're posting on Slashdot, which has a large majority of Septics with their typically abysmal grasp of the world outside America.
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
I think the problem was that the rescue workers at that time were also the rebels, or at least, were under the barrel of their guns :)
There are two data recorders on civilian airliners, which record different things : a flight DATA recorder (FDR) and a separate cockpit VOICE recorder (CVR). Though quite what new data these would provide is not at all clear to me. Do you think that the alleged Ukrainian fighter plane would have been in conversation with the plane or something? Why would they do that? What's the FDR going to contain? [Flying][More Flying][More Flying]All hell breaks loose, with many sensors and/or power and/or hydraulic buses going down. That's going to tell us that the plane wasn't CFIT by a mad pilot (which is an allegation I've not heard from anyone), and that there wasn't piecemeal falling apart of the plane because the welders were pissed the day they built that airframe (another allegation I've not heard). So what new information are they going to add?
I've never heard of any aircraft carrying two FDR and/or two CVR. Unless you know differently (citation, please). They're expensive bits of kit and take non-trivial maintenance, so only the minimum required is fitted.
What data did the FDR record? That's up to the operator - after the 88 parameters required by FAA specifications. (I assume the FAA requirements will be a minimum, as the airframe was by Boeing, so has made at least one flight originating in the US, and therefore subject to FAA regulations ; it may never have been subject to FAA regulations since, but re-programming and/ or re-wiring the FDR to comply with some other relevant standard would be a significant maintenance task, and why spend the money. I checked the FAA's standard here, and to my surprise they refer back to a European standard "European Organization for Civil Aviation Electronicsâ(TM) (EUROCAE) publication ED-112, Minimum Operational Performance Specification for Crash Protected Airborne Recorder Systems" ; if you want to follow the paper trail, feel free.)
CFIT - one of the most terrifying of aviation acronyms : Controlled Flight Into Terrain.
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
You're doing that Dutch thing of being all reasonable and calm when less self-controlled peoples (particularly Americans, but not restricted to them) would be running around screaming like headless chickens, and calling for the nuking of any and all countries alleged to be involved, before actually getting any evidence.
How can you have such calmness and self-confidence, when people less involved know that you should be beating them to the peaks of hysteria.
And people wonder why I like working with Cloggies.
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
That's not me that's your fucking strawman you simplisitic git. Read what is written and don't put words in other people's mouths when what they write is not convenient enough.
This seems somewhat improbable considering that their enemy, the separatists, don't have any aircraft.
It's the same situation as you had in Syria where chemical weapons were being deployed by helicopter in barrels. Was it the rebels or the government? Well, considering that the rebels don't have any helicopters...
Crawl out of your basement and look around. That's the real world. I. The real world a bunch of Russian sponsored terrorists shot down a plane of good people.
Stop being a spineless dipshit that makes common sense seem impossible. This shit happens, Russia does this shit non-stop. Pansy ass nerds like you try to make it more complicated than it really is.
Russia is responsible.
Russia is responsible.
Russia is responsible.
Easy enough? The people on the airplane and citizens of Ukraine deserve better than you fucknuts that can't even handle basic Russian propaganda.
If you mean by diet of potatoes you mean vodka,you sir are correct. Also, if you mean for food, you sir are correct.
Fact is Russians just love he fuck out of potatoes.
The good news is that while your writing style stinks of a poorly trained Russian, you did remember to erase comrade at the end. Now it's only 99.9% not legit propaganda.
Putin is a piece of shit. Tell your boss that when you report in for duty and he rewards you with your sack of potatoes.
I don't often bump a comment, in fact I never have - please tell me why I shouldn't "place too much faith in FlightRadar24"? Explain what to look out for so that I can use an educated opinion as to whether the data is valid or not.
Not educating me just means that I will continue to use the data as given as you've not supported your opinion.
Which is why it's quite obvious this was a false flag op by either Ukraine or the US. The scenario you describe is unrealistic. False flag ops are far more realistic.
I know, I know... The US would never spy on their own citizens or lie to us about 9/11. And the US would especially not see any value in starting a new war with Russia.
Captcha: classify
That may seem strange to us in Europe or the USA where miltary and civilian operations are conducted from separate facilities
It should not be strange to Americans either. Peterson Air Force base uses the other end of the Colorado Springs Airport.
https://www.google.com/maps/@3...
And there are others, this one was merely convenient for me to point out.
"Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
Is it just me or is everyone failing to see the real issues here?
Which is,
Why in the fuck was a commercial airliner flying over a war zone?
Not at the time I posted they weren't. The rebels were still delaying and stalling.
Since the U.S. awarded the captain of the USS Vincennes the Legion of Merit instead of the court martial he deserved, the U.S. deserves to be vilified for that incident.
Why even bother spoofing the IP? Hack the account of the bot, or set up your own for potential future targets, and inject apparent changes. While this will eventually be found out (far easier than to figure out IP spoofing), if done with a trusted account in the right circumstances I could see an immediate backlash being disproportionate and causing things to escalate quickly.
Basically, wait for the hay pile to build up on the camel, and play that final straw at the right moment...