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How Gygax Lost Control of TSR and D&D

An anonymous reader writes "Sunday was the birthday of the late great Gary Gygax, co-creator of Dungeons & Dragons and Futurama guest star. With the fifth edition of D&D soon to come out at Gen Con this year, Jon Peterson, author of Playing at the World, has released a new piece to answer a historical question: how was it, back in 1985, that Gary was ousted from TSR and control of D&D was taken away from him? Drawn from board meeting minutes, stock certificates, letters, and other first-hand sources, it's not a quick read or a very cheery one, but it shows how the greatest success of hobby games of the 1980s fell apart and marginalized its most famous designer."

136 of 183 comments (clear)

  1. Easy by halivar · · Score: 5, Funny

    He lost a Will save.

    1. Re:Easy by dreamchaser · · Score: 4, Informative

      Will saves didn't exist under any of the editions he wrote.

    2. Re: Easy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So he really lost it then ;)

    3. Re:Easy by bytestorm · · Score: 3, Insightful

      From the way the article reads, it's more like everyone else made their save vs spell... Or perhaps that he lost his save vs PPDM. Seems like after he made his initial critical mistake (allowing investment options to bypass his majority ownership), he couldn't recover without just divesting himself from TSR and starting over before the flagship D&D product was born, which, as a primary creator, he might have been able to pull off.
      The behind closed doors shenanigans, manipulations and backstabbery are about right for any D&D game I've ever been in.

    4. Re:Easy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      In that case he failed a save versus rod/staff/wand. In particular, the security staff who escorted him out.

    5. Re:Easy by halivar · · Score: 1

      This is what I get for coming into D&D as a 3tard. Thanks for the correction. :(

    6. Re:Easy by kelemvor4 · · Score: 3, Informative

      He lost a Will save.

      The only real saving throw types are

      1. Paralyzation, Poison, or Death Magic
      2. Rod, Staff, or Wand
      3. Petrification or Polymorph
      4. Breath Weapon
      5. Spell

      All the rest are bullshit.

    7. Re:Easy by mark-t · · Score: 2

      But "will" is not a 1st edition attribute.

    8. Re:Easy by halivar · · Score: 1

      Is that 1st Edition, 1st Edition, or 1st Edition you're talking about? I only played 1st Edition, I never played the other two 1st Editions.

    9. Re:Easy by Sir_Eptishous · · Score: 1

      More like failed an Intelligence check...

      --
      We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
    10. Re:Easy by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      Will saves didn't exist under any of the editions he wrote.

      No, but CHA did, as in "I've been forced out. God damn 18 charismas!!! >:-( "

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    11. Re:Easy by castle · · Score: 1

      It'd be Wisdom, 1d20, roll under.

    12. Re:Easy by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Man, what is it with some gamers where they need to call out things they don't like as bullshit or wrong?

      It's not even the original list, so I'm not sure what you are so uppity about.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    13. Re:Easy by CronoCloud · · Score: 1

      The classic list, and from someone named "Kelemvor". Kudos.

    14. Re:Easy by mark-t · · Score: 1

      That's what it would typically convert to, yes... my point was still that "Will" is not 1st edition attribute. Further, a "Will save" and a "Wisdom attribute save" are two entirely different things. The former adjusts your roll by a bonus or penality that is associated with your wisdom score (much like a save vs spell, with wisdom bonus applicable), while with the latter, you directly compare your raw ability score to the roll itself.

      Personally, I prefer using percentile dice for stat checks... with a base of 5% per stat point, plus or minus any situational modifiers. Then the d20 is only used for rolling high, while percentile dice is ordinarily used for rolling low (such as thieving checks, et al). I find that doing this makes things much easier for people who are new to the game, because I used to always get asked "do I need to roll high or low?" by newer players. I still get that every once in a while, but a lot less often since running things this way.

    15. Re:Easy by Zumbs · · Score: 1

      Not quite: Wisdom could give you a bonus to your save against mind affecting spells, but the base value depended on your class and level. And you needed to roll over ... probably better to say that he failed his save.

      --
      The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head
    16. Re:Easy by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      He never really had a majority ownership though, if you take into account unexercised options. Ultimately, he should have purchased from the Blume's when they offered to sell. They were the ones who provided much of the original investment in the company, Gygax was just the creative deparment. As far as creativity goes, remember Dave Arneson the co-writer of D&D who didn't have much stake in the company at all.

      So Gygax sort of set himself up for the fall, and as well his business sense wasn't very good at the time.

      On the other hand, TSR made a lot of money afterwords but also went downhill creatively, the later editions were not as good as AD&D, with overly complicated rules, an overabundance of add-ons, etc. For pure pen-and-paper the competitors had better systems. The chief asset TSR had was the Dungeons and Dragons name.

    17. Re:Easy by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson were listed as co-writers, but from what I've seen and gathered the primary creative work was done in Lake Geneva, not the Twin Cities. I wouldn't call Gygax "just the creative department".

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    18. Re:Easy by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      There were no attribute-based saves in the original rules, except that percent chance of surviving resurrection went up with constitution. 1st Edition was not the earliest rules.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    19. Re:Easy by CronoCloud · · Score: 1

      after some halfwit from Greenwood's warped imagination?

      Better than being named Dryzzt420 or Gord-something.

      And it isn't even the classic list, FFS.

      It isn't? That's the 1st or 2nd Edition AD&D version of the list, right? The versions that first achieved prominence and sold enough copies to be a "thing"?

      It's similar but not quite exactly the same as the Red Box list.

    20. Re:Easy by kelemvor4 · · Score: 1

      It's not even the original list, so I'm not sure what you are so uppity about.

      That's the list from AD&D "First Edition". Perhaps you're thinking of regular D&D or something else?

    21. Re:Easy by thunderclap · · Score: 1

      Death Magic it is. None of us knew it at the time.

  2. Arneson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    After Gygax's treatment of Arneson and the way he attempted to attack other games in the roleplaying hobby, I find it hard to feel much sympathy for him.

    1. Re:Arneson by Sir_Eptishous · · Score: 1

      Yes, I would have to agree. At least from what I've read, it does appear that Arneson, who was as much a "Father" of D&D as Gygax, got screwed sometime in the mid 70's by GG.

      --
      We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
    2. Re:Arneson by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Arneson was at TSR for a year, then left to do his own thing.
      Dave's Blackmoor changed my life.

      When the Made AD&D DAve sued, TSR said it was significanly different, and the courts agreed. INHO the court were right, it was substantially different. Eventual Gary and Dave agreed to credit each other as co-creater.

      Later, WoTC wanted to drop 'Advanced' so they paid Arneson some cash. Since DnD is a hobby game, that cash settlement might have been in to the 10's of dollars. HAHA, that as a joke, I hope it was substantial.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    3. Re:Arneson by hey! · · Score: 1

      After Gygax's treatment of Arneson and the way he attempted to attack other games in the roleplaying hobby, I find it hard to feel much sympathy for him.

      Well, if you put yourself in his shoes you might well play hardball with other games in the hobby.

      D&D as a system wasn't really all special; there were competing systems back in the days he was at TSR which were every bit as enjoyable and arguably easier to play. But D&D had two big things going for it. First, when the three basic manuals for AD&D were published it had by far the best organized and written materials. The Monster Manual was particularly useful. Second it had the network effect: it was the best system to learn to play because everyone else knew how to play it. You could start a campaign at a drop of a hat -- no need to bring everyone up to speed on yet another set of rules.

      So put yourself in his position. The future success of D&D is contingent on no other game reaching critical mass. You're completely dependent on D&D, you have no other marketable skills or assets. You have a company with over a hundred employees (which is surely a mistake on your part), and that company has nothing else bringing in cash *but* D&D products. You've made D&D your life work. It's not a situation to bring out the best in people.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    4. Re:Arneson by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      I think monster manual was the least important of the books. It was basically more supplemental content than rules. Player's Manual and DM Guide were the core rules. Competing systems tended to put all the rules in one volume then have supplements, or perhaps have an abridged set of rules plus game world in one book. Ie, GURPS or Champions/Hero-System.

      The plusses for D&D and AD&D were the name recognition, a set of pre-built modules, and access to the book stores.

    5. Re:Arneson by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Personally, I count the time that TSR took over D&D as the point at which the game started delcining and rigidifying. Prior to that is was much more creative and interesting.

      OTOH, they did make it MUCH easier to mover characters from game to game.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    6. Re:Arneson by plover · · Score: 1

      D&D as a system wasn't really all special; there were competing systems back in the days he was at TSR which were every bit as enjoyable and arguably easier to play. But D&D had two big things going for it. First, when the three basic manuals for AD&D were published it had by far the best organized and written materials. The Monster Manual was particularly useful. Second it had the network effect: it was the best system to learn to play because everyone else knew how to play it. You could start a campaign at a drop of a hat -- no need to bring everyone up to speed on yet another set of rules.

      Actually, those two things made it remarkably special! It's the overall accessibility and organization that made the system work. While my friends and I tried to start out with Chainmail, we didn't have anyone to show us how so we never really figured it out, and it wasn't very satisfying. But when AD&D came out, we were able to read the books, grasp the concepts, and actually play the game. The game mechanics aren't important, as you can just skip over the awkward rules you don't like (psionics! Bah!) The real magic was the whole of the system didn't hinder our imaginations.

      And Troy, if you're reading this, I want my White box set back, please, along with all the other supplements. You've had them for 35 years, now it's my turn.

      --
      John
    7. Re:Arneson by hawk · · Score: 1

      The "glory years" identified were my Jr & Sr years of high school . . .

      The "other" things in circulation at the time were largely either supplements to the the original booklets (and supplements), such as Arduinn, Spellcaster's Bible, and Runequest (farther removed), or completely orthogonal, such as Travellers & Runequest (also TSR).

      A bit of this, a bit of that, a few articles from Dragon, and so forth.

      And the moronic arguments as to which system handled dragon breath more "realistically", for crying out loud. D&D (blast goes off in the middle of people, but the second row doesn't get shielded from the first) or something goes off between two people, but one takes half as much damage as if the other wasn't there (Arduin)

      hawk, who has the original Arduin supplement somewhere (before the bra was added)

    8. Re:Arneson by Johnny+Mnemonic · · Score: 1

      There's something to be said about the complexity of AD&D, too. I'm still the only person that I know personally to have played Melee, from Steve Jackson before he founded Steve Jackson Games, and I really loved it. Played very smooth with an understandable magic system. Combat and damage made a lot of sense. It doesn't have the texture of AD&D, though, it's almost too hermetic. I even still have the books. ;(

      --

      --
      $tar -xvf .sig.tar
    9. Re:Arneson by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      I do like GURPS, simple, straight forward, 3d6 does a better job than d20 for most things, and adaptable to most genres easily. Most of AD&D though if you really go through the books is flavor. I think this is because RPGs were so new that there was a need for a basic instruction book on what to do. There was also a lot of filler in the AD&D books, a grab bag of various things that were better served as columns in Dragon magazine (which a lot of them were). Ie, the instructions on how to generate a random dungeon. When I ran some games I didn't keep all the rules, there were too many. As in I didn't bother with adjustments based on weapon types versus armor types, it slowed stuff down too much.

  3. As someone who played D&D in the 1980s, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    I can surmise that immediately after being ousted from Dungeons & Dragons, he immediately got laid.

    1. Re:As someone who played D&D in the 1980s, by FilmedInNoir · · Score: 4, Funny

      Wives: Gail Carpenter Gygax (m. 1987–2008), Mary Jo Powell (m. 1958–1983) ... If the stories of how marriage works are true, then you are correct.

      --
      Sig. Sig. Sputnik
  4. When going into business with Friends by Danathar · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This should serve as a cautionary tail of what can happen when you go into business with friends and or relatives. As soon as big money starts being made...unfortunately the greedy side of human nature tends to rear it's ugly head.

    1. Re:When going into business with Friends by smooth+wombat · · Score: 2

      This should serve as a cautionary tail of what can happen when you go into business with friends and or relatives

      I could see how that would be an issue. After all, as we saw in Spaceballs, that tail can get in the way sometimes.

      --
      We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    2. Re:When going into business with Friends by JosKarith · · Score: 5, Informative

      IIRC Williams went on to sink as much of TSR's money as possible into buying up the rights for the Buck Rogers RPG ... which flopped and sunk without a trace, crippling TSR's finances. Rather than invest in it to turn its declining fortunes around as she was supposed to she effectively asset stripped it - her family owned the Buck Rogers franchise rights...
      All in all a classic carpetbagger move by Williams that everyone except Gygax fell for.

      --
      'Don't worry' said the trees when they saw the axe coming, 'The handle is one of us.'
    3. Re:When going into business with Friends by ledow · · Score: 1

      Going into business with friends or relatives is not a problem.

      Just treat it like a business. When your cousin comes to work for you, you're under no different obligations as an employer than you would be if they weren't you cousin.

      Similarly, business is something which people do for "profit". Whether than be salary, experience, shares, or literal profit - each person is there because they have something they want out of the business. As such, pretending that because they are family makes things different is idiotic.

      The friend who says to his friends that he hired "Sorry, mate, it's not working out" is still a friend, but he's protecting his interest in the business. A friend that doesn't understand that is not a friend. And though there might be "favours" and shortcuts and digging people out of holes, those favours are as shortlived in the business world as they are in the personal world - and abuse of them by a friend means that they aren't a friend.

      Speaking as someone who has in the past hired my own brother (and will do so again soon), and who my father found me work for occasionally with good friends of theirs, it's still "just business". They're not giving charity - if they were, they'd give charity as a friend.

      If you go into business with a friend or relative, treat them like anyone else. Get a contract, get them to sign it, talk to them about what's happening, don't just assume they will always do what you want even when it's not in their interest. Don't rely on even a friend's goodwill to get you through.

      You wouldn't take money from a friend just because they offered it. Equally you wouldn't run up a debt for your friend just because they "normally pay" or whatever. Talk to people. And get anything business-critical in writing.

      Some guy you know coming to work for you for a few days can go wrong enough - don't think when you're talking multi-million dollar businesses and official share certificates that you don't need to make things official too.

    4. Re:When going into business with Friends by Jaysyn · · Score: 1

      I gotta admit, as a kid I liked the 2 CRPG "GoldBox" versions of Buck Rodgers.

      --
      There is a war going on for your mind.
    5. Re:When going into business with Friends by Danathar · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That SOUNDS a lot easier than you think.

      Firing a relative or friend has repercussions outside of your business relationship. It simply isn't easy for most people who love and cherish their family and friends to toss them out on the street along with their kids.

      Do you really think that a nasty money fight between friends and relatives with contractual obligations in a business would not affect the personal relationships between them?

    6. Re:When going into business with Friends by plover · · Score: 1

      Going into business with friends or relatives is not a problem.

      Just treat it like a business. When your cousin comes to work for you, you're under no different obligations as an employer than you would be if they weren't you cousin.

      Actually, that's a real problem for most of us. A familial bond is one of care and protection. Family means that you defend other members of the family, even when they're stretching boundaries. And we have different levels of permission based on context, where the boundaries outside of the family are different than the boundaries inside the family. For example, if a kid gets into a schoolyard fight, the father might defend the kid's behavior; but if the same fight occurred between siblings, he might punish both equally.

      A sociopath has no problem flipping the switch, to decide that they can ignore the family ties. For the rest of us, it's not that easy. (Please note that I'm not saying people who successfully hire and manage family members are sociopaths! I'm just saying it's hard.)

      Looking at it another way, if it were "not a problem", if it was easy to treat family members equally, the phenomenon known as the 'Son of the Boss' wouldn't exist. But it exists everywhere.

      --
      John
    7. Re:When going into business with Friends by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      They aren't your friends if it does.

      Relatives are a little different depending on who they are and what your relationship with them is.

      I've had no problem mixing the two but then again, if someone can't behave themselves in the business relationship I don't really consider them a friend so I can't really consider it any sort of loss of a friend either.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    8. Re:When going into business with Friends by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Except this case is not that, at all.

      *At least according to this article*, going into business with friends didn't actually seem to be the problem. It may have been acrimonious at times, but it was a very successful partnership for many years. Further, if Gygax hadn't gone into business with his friends, he would not have gone into business at all. He had no money, and no non-friend in their right mind would have invested in his idea.

      The problem is TSR in general, and Gygax in particular, badly misread the market in the early 1980s and took on far, far too much staff. When revenue started coming in at about 1/3rd their projections, they were forced to take on outside investment and loans. A condition of this was the banks and investors got to stack the board. The Blumes had wanted out for a long time, and offered to sell to Gygax *first*. He declined or delayed (this is unclear), but they wanted out, so they sold to one of the investors, giving the non-Gygax group a majority of shares and the capacity to replace Gygax as President.

      - Matthew

    9. Re:When going into business with Friends by pla · · Score: 3, Interesting

      This should serve as a cautionary tail of what can happen when you go into business with friends and or relatives. As soon as big money starts being made...unfortunately the greedy side of human nature tends to rear it's ugly head.

      The arrangement made sense right up until TSR actually started making real money. When you and your friends bust your asses to build a business, and have no substantial income or assets to fight over, running it as a labor-of-love makes perfect sense. But once they started bulk-hiring new staff and pulled off 5000% growth over five years - Why the hell didn't they hire a competent CFO???

      No one in the inner circle had a clue about how to run a business, because they all wanted control to remain in the hands of gamers - Hey, cool, most of us can appreciate that concept. But they could have avoided all the acrimony and eventually selling out to Wizards-of-the-CCG simply by bringing in someone with a clue in a non-shareholding executive capacity.

      Sad, really.

    10. Re:When going into business with Friends by Nephandus · · Score: 1

      Oh, someone's a freak but not who you seem to think. I don't know many people that can honestly say that "care and protection" exemplifies their family, regardless of what they admittedly pretend in front of the others. It's mostly about politics and emotional manipulations. Aside from saccharine tactics, terrorizing children to force pretenses of emotion and false declarations of belief out of them are the norm. It's Stockholm syndrome, along with about every other form of brainwashing tactic ever devised, with extensive state and social backing. Personally, like plenty of non-PC people risking getting branded as "sociopath" and reflexively socially ostracized as defective, they were consciously the worst enemies I've ever had in my life since age fucking 2...

      --
      "A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head."
    11. Re:When going into business with Friends by Sir_Eptishous · · Score: 1

      Read some of the "memoirs" of those who worked at TSR at the time. Williams couldn't stand gamers, D&D or pretty anything "geek/nerd".
      She saw $$$ and tried to cash in. I would suspect a low level Illusionist may have been behind it...

      --
      We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
    12. Re:When going into business with Friends by Chas · · Score: 2

      The arrangement made sense right up until TSR actually started making real money. When you and your friends bust your asses to build a business, and have no substantial income or assets to fight over, running it as a labor-of-love makes perfect sense. But once they started bulk-hiring new staff and pulled off 5000% growth over five years - Why the hell didn't they hire a competent CFO???

      It's a NORMAL pitfall in hobby companies.

      It starts out as a hobby/lark. And there's a certain looseness in how the company is run.

      However, once the company starts employing dozens of people and pulling in multiple millions a year, it's definitely NOT the best way to run the company and things DO need to change. It's just very difficult to see where that jumping-off point is when you're in the middle of things (especially if you haven't encountered this sort of managerial divide before).

      This is speaking from experience. A few years ago, a partnership of mine nearly ran our company into the ground. Quite by accident. You go to bed one evening and everything's cool. Then next morning, the books are going "AUUGH! WHAT DID YOU DOOOOOOO!".

      We were lucky we caught it when we did (though catching it SOONER would have been nice). And we were able to get the company turned around and working in a healthy manner.

      Unfortunately, TSR wasn't able to do the same thing. Mostly from sheer inertia. And then, after the takeover, primarily because Lorraine Williams just didn't care about anything at the company or customer base other than what added to her personal bottom line.

      --


      Chas - The one, the only.
      THANK GOD!!!
    13. Re:When going into business with Friends by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      The arrangement made sense right up until TSR actually started making real money. When you and your friends bust your asses to build a business, and have no substantial income or assets to fight over, running it as a labor-of-love makes perfect sense. But once they started bulk-hiring new staff and pulled off 5000% growth over five years - Why the hell didn't they hire a competent CFO???

      Well, because this was the early 80's not the early 00's and they hadn't lived through the dot bomb as we all have. (Seriously, the dot bomb radically changed the public's perception of how a business should be run if/when it Suddenly Gets Big. We simply didn't think that way back then.) That, and their desire to keep control in house and in the hands of gamers meant they never brought in any real (read competent) outside money... which might have imposed the constraint of hiring adult supervision as a condition of receiving the money.

    14. Re:When going into business with Friends by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      Actually it is more a warning about what happens when growth slows.
      As long as people are getting richer everything is good. It is only when thing slow down that the problem start.
      Greed is satisfied when it is fed, put in on a diet and it gets ugly.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    15. Re:When going into business with Friends by DerekLyons · · Score: 4, Informative

      IIRC Williams went on to sink as much of TSR's money as possible into buying up the rights for the Buck Rogers RPG ... which flopped and sunk without a trace, crippling TSR's finances.

      TSR's finances were in perpetual disarray from about '83 forward... when the D&D bubble popped.* TSR had built itself around the assumption that growth would occur at the same rate as it had during the bubble, and was screwed when it didn't. It never fully recovered. Even though Williams' mismanagement didn't help, by the mid 80's significant percentage of gamers had moved onto computer gaming and their purchases of hardcopy games dropped precipitously. They stumbled on long enough to be around when WOTC came into bucketloads of cash, but they were anything but a healthy company.

      Not to mention the Buck Rodgers RPG is far from only "flopped and sunk without a trace", whether from TSR or elsewhere in the industry. (Even games that were huge successes (by the standards of the day) are by-and-large completely forgotten today.) At the height of the bubble ('82-'83) it seemed a new RPG was coming out every week, and the premises of the games were increasingly specialized and/or outlandish. By 1983, the market for tulip bulbs was beyond saturated**. By 1984 it was busted. By 1993, when the Buck Rodgers RPG was released, it would have taken a miracle for any RPG to be a breakout hit.

      *The largest problems that hardcopy gaming (board, pen-and-paper, etc...) companies face are the replayability factor and the scaling factor. For the first, you can buy a set of rulebooks and literally play for years without further purchase. For the second, one guy can purchase a set and then ten or more others can play using that set for years. Once a significant proportion of your userbase has a set of your products, you're screwed. There's a reason why every gaming company of the era got into supplements and expansions and ancillary products and media as fast and deep as possible - it's the only way to survive. WOTC didn't create the idea of endless supplements and expansions (as many seem to think), they merely perfected the implementation by convincing players they were vital to continued gameplay rather than being optional.

      ** I remember a meeting of our gaming group in 1983 where we were deciding which GM/game would be added to our rotation to replace one that was moving away... we literally had twenty or thirty different RPG's in hardcopy physically sitting on the table. When I attended Dracon I (or was it Hexacon I, can't remember as there were so many start-up gaming cons back in the day) in 1984 I took something like ten different games from my personal collection to the con. (Met Tracy Hickman there, out stumping the then newly released Dragonlance.)

    16. Re:When going into business with Friends by Shadowmist · · Score: 1

      All in all a classic carpetbagger move by Williams that everyone except Gygax fell for.

      Oh? Keep in mind that it was Gygax himself who brought her in. Much how like Steve Jobs brought in Sculley, who later led the move to oust Jobs from Apple.

    17. Re:When going into business with Friends by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Except that you're talking about a business as an attempt to make money. Lots of small hobby companies at that time (and probably a whole lot more) were efforts to support a hobby and not suffer too much financially.

      In this case, people are not in the business for the money, as most competent people could make more money doing something else and gaming in the evenings and on weekends. People are in for a sort of vision, and the visions aren't necessarily shared. Neither is commitment; one person might be willing to sacrifice a whole lot and somebody else relatively little. These create tensions that work differently than tensions in for-money businesses. If my company decides they want more of me than I'm willing to give, or turns more unethical than I'm willing to put up with, or something like that, I can find another job. If I'm part owner of a company making miniature figures, and the other members want to abandon historical figures or set pay too low, I have a lot fewer options. In addition, this is business with friends out of necessity, not convenience.

      Also, some of these companies are run by people who really don't have any business expertise or fondness for it, and it shows. I had a friend's role-playing business described as a wonderful textbook example of extreme mismanagement, and another friend got into trouble with the IRS because they couldn't believe he'd screwed up that badly with his boardgame business.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    18. Re:When going into business with Friends by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Another issue is that it's hard to make sure you're hiring somebody competent. I know of one company who got a new well-recommended CFO, who took over a year to figure out that the HR head was robbing the company blind. Seriously, the founders of a company like that are going to be reluctant to give up that much control, even to an employee, if they don't know the guy personally.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    19. Re:When going into business with Friends by mythosaz · · Score: 1

      WotC has mostly abandoned Legacy and Vintage to whatever degeneracy might happen, but the "Modern" tournament format (all sets since 8th edition) is being fully supported, and new cards are balanced for inclusion in that environment.

      8th ED was 2003, but balancing for it has only happened since the Modern format was introduced in 2011. Cards in the last 3-5 years (since the design of the sets in 2011) take their fit into Modern seriously.

    20. Re:When going into business with Friends by hawk · · Score: 1

      Straight out of high school, I ended up as the first employee of a startup in '82.

      Both of the principals were recent college graduates (same school I was headed to), and were quite clear that they would be selling out, as they had "no idea" how to run a large company.

      hawk

    21. Re:When going into business with Friends by Nephandus · · Score: 1

      Ah, the shrinks.. They said I was brilliant and on the best track to a better life possible then asked why I was there. Well, not counting the campus sleaze-bag with busty intern who thought I should emulate him to pick up women... Unsurprisingly, this doesn't change my history or the general reality of families. Seek help yourself, you're delusional, probably violently so. It's normal sadly.

      --
      "A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head."
    22. Re:When going into business with Friends by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Good for them. Not all founders think that way. You might want to look at this Paul Graham essay.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    23. Re:When going into business with Friends by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Please tell me you have a sister and she's single.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    24. Re:When going into business with Friends by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      You can't blame anyone for the contracts you sign but yourself.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  5. Lemme guess... by Ryanrule · · Score: 1, Interesting

    The reason is spelled MBA.

    1. Re:Lemme guess... by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      Wow the problems of the world are based on a particular Academic degree?
      You know Slashdot blame the MBA for a lot of the problems of the world. However I haven't ran into too many of them. A lot of the bosses making these type of decisions don't have an MBA, but some other degree. BA in History, or Arts, BS in Computer Science or Physics...

      Also a lot of those MBA are not the ones in charge, but can be the Tech guy next to you doing coding as well.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    2. Re:Lemme guess... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yes, having the lack of one. They basically ran it into the ground because Gygax and friends had no real business or financial sense.

    3. Re:Lemme guess... by Ryanrule · · Score: 1

      ok. how bout the business drone who gets the MBA? that is the lot these days.
      personally, i think a BS should be REQUIRED for an MBA, no soft degrees.

    4. Re:Lemme guess... by hawk · · Score: 1

      Including no undergraduate degrees in business . . .

      hawk

      p.s., when Santa Clara (first college in CA) first offered a B.S., it was a watered down BA, not requiring as much Latin & Greek, but otherwise the same . . . (yes, this was the 19th century, and a BA still required calculus & physics . . .)

  6. 5thed is irrelevant. by Lumpy · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Everyone has moved away from it to either Pathfinder or 13Th age. DnD is on it's way to becoming another savage worlds for lovers of crunchy dice rolling only.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    1. Re:5thed is irrelevant. by Exitar · · Score: 2

      Yeah sure, and nobody plays World of Warcraft or eat at McDonald's anymore...

    2. Re:5thed is irrelevant. by halivar · · Score: 1

      So you're saying GURPS is the best game for a Dragonball Z campaign? Six seasons later, the flaming dragon-fist punch finally lands...

    3. Re:5thed is irrelevant. by Gibgezr · · Score: 1

      Some moved to Pathfinder, for sure, but many of us just kept playing 3.5 with house rules. The DnD sessions I participate in are fast'n'loose and fun as hell.

      Almost nobody plays 13Th age (not dissing it, just am unfamiliar with it because ...er, nobody plays it).

    4. Re:5thed is irrelevant. by Sir_Eptishous · · Score: 1

      Pathfinder is a joke, as is any edition past 2nd.
      Anything made by WoTC isn't D&D, you can be assured of that.
      Just because they have the rights to the name doesn't mean squat.

      I play in a hybrid 1.5/2nd ed campaign that is a blast, easy to play, and doesn't have the "I'm going to run a half dragon Priest/Archer/Wild Mage with psionics" vibe that the WoTC "editions" have. It is old school D&D and fun as hell.

      --
      We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
    5. Re:5thed is irrelevant. by genner · · Score: 1

      So you're saying GURPS is the best game for a Dragonball Z campaign? Six seasons later, the flaming dragon-fist punch finally lands...

      Also works for Final Fantasy campaigns.......I summon Knights of the Round!............at least there's less grunting.

    6. Re:5thed is irrelevant. by shaitand · · Score: 1

      Pathfinder is a lot more D&D than anything else on the market right now. That other crap just got the trademark.

    7. Re:5thed is irrelevant. by Yosho · · Score: 1

      Pathfinder is a joke, as is any edition past 2nd.

      You may not personally like Pathfinder, but you're kidding yourself if you think it's not the king of tabletop RPGs right now. Game shops stock more PF books than any other rules setting, and gaming conventions are dominated by Pathfinder Society tables -- and, honestly, Paizo has exerted better quality control over PF than WotC ever did over D&D. They've had a few duds, but overall the quality of their supplements and adventure paths has been very consistent.

      --
      Karma: Terrifying (mostly affected by atrocities you've committed)
    8. Re:5thed is irrelevant. by halivar · · Score: 1

      Is anything after the Model-T a Ford?

    9. Re:5thed is irrelevant. by geekoid · · Score: 1

      If you want fast and less crunch, Savage Worlds.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    10. Re:5thed is irrelevant. by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      That's it for your punishment you must create a character for Rolemaster.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    11. Re:5thed is irrelevant. by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      Just had a Shadowrun one-shot.
      DEAR FUCKING GOD! I love the setting and tolerate the magical bullshit they throw in for whatever reason. But the mechanics of the system are just SO BLOODY PAINFUL.
      Guy with a grenade launcher. He rolls his to-hit, minus distance penalties, minus lighting conditions, negated by thermal vision, we roll scatter direction and distance (the rules are internally inconstant about the distance they scatter), his hits reduce this damage, the targets dodge (just reaction, as it's not melee)(and only half that because it's area effect), the damage is applied, they resist with their armor and body (plus 1 for cyberlimbs, plus 2 for bone lacing, you just have to know), but for that guy the damage is -2 per meter distance from the blast, and that guy is next to a wall so he gets the blast wave twice.

      And HALF those rules don't apply when the mage whips out the magic casting system and we have to distinguish between direct/indirect, elemental, permanent/mental, sustained, the different schools, and each spell does things a little differently. The magic spell casting ability is not to be confused with the magic attribute, the force of the spell, the threshold of the spell, the hits the spell is cast with, or the drain value of the spell. It didn't help that he confused DV as the damage value as opposed to drain value, but WHATEVER.

      And mechanics aside, the whole thing suffers from a failure to engage different players. Indeed, they go out of their way to give players special things that only their character can do: Matrix, astral, rigging, driving, stealth, social, combat. You can specialize in those fields and if you didn't, then you pretty much just sit there while the other players do their thing.

      The whole god-damned thing is kludge by authors who want to be game designers but don't know how.

      But I do like me some cyberpunk.

    12. Re:5thed is irrelevant. by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 1

      Two words: Phoenix Command.

    13. Re:5thed is irrelevant. by An+ominous+Cow+art · · Score: 1

      4 words altogether:
      Fringeworthy
      The Morrow Project

    14. Re:5thed is irrelevant. by Sir_Eptishous · · Score: 1

      Yes, I'm quite aware of Pathfinders popularity, especially among the 20-something crowd who thinks they are playing D&D. I don't argue that point. Believe me I've tried it, and 3.5 and 4... They are all, as another person mentioned, "video games on paper".

      Really the thing about Pathfinder I couldn't stomach was how the story and character actions were just too "guided". It reminded me of playing Everquest for the first time and running into the edge of the map("wow, I can't keep going?!?). Sure, that is an extreme example, but the Pathfinder Society is too controlling and almost cult like in the way the GM's run their worlds. I like freedom in RPG's. For example, if I'm running Traveller and the group decides to forget about their mission to protect a mining convoy and jump over to another star cluster, hey, that is their decision, and I will allow players that freedom.

      --
      We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
    15. Re:5thed is irrelevant. by Pinky's+Brain · · Score: 1

      Easy to play? I guess you guys don't use the initiative rules as written :p

    16. Re:5thed is irrelevant. by Bigbutt · · Score: 1

      It's why I whipped up a set of web pages to handle combat of all types. The originals are a hack. I need to update them for 5th.

      [John]

      --
      Shit better not happen!
    17. Re:5thed is irrelevant. by CronoCloud · · Score: 1

      Link an MP absorb to ANOTHER Mastered KOTR for MP replenishment. The easy way is W-Summon, Master Summon, Master KOTR + MP Absorb. You'll want that KOTR when you're grinding AP in the crater in that area with the "Movers" because of the @#$@$ Tonberries. See one, KOTR it.

    18. Re:5thed is irrelevant. by aevan · · Score: 1

      I thought it was spelled Rulemaster?

    19. Re:5thed is irrelevant. by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      D&D started out with defined, but quick, combat mechanics and very little rules for any other activity. (This is assuming some outside help, since it wasn't really possible to figure out how to play with just the first three books and the next four supplements.) If you were doing anything but combat, you winged it or role-played it. Some time after that, Gary Gygax wrote (in Strategic Review or Dragon) that the spells shouldn't be used for anything other than their stated purpose (no trying to drown vampires with Create Water, say), and AD&D when it came out was much more mechanics-heavy.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    20. Re:5thed is irrelevant. by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      FWIW, with the original three books and the third supplement, it was entirely possible to play a half-dragon priest with psionics. (There weren't rules for half-dragons, but a good group of players would make something up and go with it.)

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    21. Re:5thed is irrelevant. by Yosho · · Score: 1

      Sure, that is an extreme example, but the Pathfinder Society is too controlling and almost cult like in the way the GM's run their worlds. I like freedom in RPG's.

      The amount of freedom you have is entirely up to the GM running the game. There's nothing inherent to any of the system mentioned that would stop GMs from letting their players do whatever they want. PFS modules are very railroady as a contrivance of being part of an organized play campaign; players have to play within the box and by the rules in order to keep things fair and balanced for all of the other players.

      If you're playing in a home game, though, there's no reason why a GM can't let their players run wild and go wherever they want except for a lack of imagination. It seems like you're trying to set up a strawman argument in order to justify your dislike of the system.

      the Pathfinder Society is too controlling and almost cult like

      Wait, take a step back. Did a 2E D&D diehard seriously just call another RPG "cult like"? Are you intentionally going for maximum irony?

      --
      Karma: Terrifying (mostly affected by atrocities you've committed)
    22. Re:5thed is irrelevant. by Yosho · · Score: 1

      Except for a 12th level characters reasonably having +29/29/24/19/14 where the first attack is actually a double attack as well and he's doing +28 dmg per hit for obscene numbers yah, pathfinder sure is 'good'.

      Yes, in fact, that's very reasonable compared to 3.5 under the guidance of WotC, where with some exploits you can have a 5th-level character with an infinitely high strength, or another who can take an unlimited number of actions per turn, or even a 5th-level wizard without any particularly bad exploits can kill the tarrasque.

      So yes, a heavily tweaked and optimized 12th-level character who can do a few hundred damage per round is pretty reasonable. Oh, and I do think my original post said there were a few exceptions.

      --
      Karma: Terrifying (mostly affected by atrocities you've committed)
    23. Re:5thed is irrelevant. by mythosaz · · Score: 1

      I'm ashamed to understand what you wrote. :(

    24. Re:5thed is irrelevant. by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      Yeah, gee, that would be kinda neat.

      I could never get into the 1994 sega genesis game. It might have been fun a the time, but the platform is showing it's age. The interface was just too cumbersome to be enjoyable.
      Never played the SNES vesion, but I imagine it's similar to the genesis version.
      There was a mega-drive version!?
      The 2007 FPS game had some aspects of shadowrun, but it's an entirely different genre.
      The 2013 PC version was a throwback. It would be a GREAT game if it was released in the 90's. Painful dialog, simplistic combat, rail-road plot. And that fucking clown in the end. It just didn't have the magic.

      But oh, wait, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THESE is a solo-only game. No multiplayer. No friends. No social interaction. No open-ended world with open-ended rules limited only by your creativity. It's like you don't even understand the premise of table-top roleplaying. Do you even know who Gygax was?

      That multiplayer game is still TBA though, and the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire.

    25. Re:5thed is irrelevant. by Yosho · · Score: 1

      I'm also gonna guess he doesn't bother with encumbrance, and I've never heard somebody say THAC0 was "easy", but I'm not sure how he'd run a pre-3.0 D&D campaign without that.

      --
      Karma: Terrifying (mostly affected by atrocities you've committed)
  7. What really happened... by GeekWithAKnife · · Score: 1


    Naturally Gary was heavily engrossed with play testing and had a hardcore group of gamers. Unfortunately over time the group developed tension and animosity. Specifically, the relationship between Gary and the game referee became very difficult...

    The Demented Mofo that sat all day in his mom's basement and thought up new ways to kill Gygax's character. This is because Gary had really good rolls throughout his game-play that foiled the DM's plans and made his encounters look too easy.
    Even when it came to treasure Gary's rolls were amazing and he got so many great magical items that he was practically invincible. He could escape easily or overcome any obstacle and was critically close to dual class level 20 with his arsenal of wands, rings, magic swords and powerful spell scrolls.
    He was practically unstoppable and was prone to maniacal laughter when he was obviously spoiling the adventure the DM spent a lot of money on purchasing.

    Just after work that day they all got together. The group were downing fizzy drinks and were already making plans to order in pizza. The DM hurridly rolled encounters behind the mystic DM screen and said things like "Oh that's bad" & "you guys are screwed" as he giggled and suggested the dice roll was somehow 3 on the D6, 5 on the D20 and 73 on the D100 (none of which was actually seen as the screen hid the results) which meant 17 angry red dragons with 9 magically dominated beholders of at least 18HD each came to take Gary's character to Tiamat on the 1st plane of hell to do battle until death.

    Later that day it was announced that Gary's character was fatally wounded after failing a saving throw vs death with a -23 modifier (there were a lot of dragon breath weapons) and shortly after being incinerated, electrocuted, frozen and disintegrated he passed away.
    Naturally Gary broke into tears and protested against the unfair odds and accused the DM of setting him up. The DM pulled out the Dungeon Master's Guide and quoted irrelevant bits of text and then laughed maniacally as he slammed the book down, ripped Gary's character sheet to shreds and threw it around like cheap confetti.
    It all went downhill from there as Gary sank into depression, alcoholism and debauchery.

    Can we observe 1 minute of rolling saving throws on the D20 for Gary? -TA

    --
    A 'singular oddity' is an event that cannot be explained and only happens when you are alone.
    1. Re:What really happened... by halivar · · Score: 2

      "Blackleaf! Noooo!"

  8. Gygax wrote about this in the 90s by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    His perspective appeared in _The_Familiar_, a very small RPG magazine published in North Carolina (only lasted 4 issues).

  9. I still don't get it... by Somebody+Is+Using+My · · Score: 1

    The article says:

    "This raised his total holdings to 1,371 shares, which fell just slightly below half (49.6%) of outstanding TSR shares, then numbering 2,761. But the 40 shares owned by Gygax’s son Ernie, when combined with his father’s holdings, secured controlling interest (51.1%) in TSR.

    Then there is a bit about the Blume family wanting to sell their shares, Gygax not biting, and Williams et al. purchasing them instead. This suddenly gives them a greater controlling interest in the corporation.

    But if Gygax already controlled 51.1%, it doesn't matter how many shares they buy; unless Gygax sold some of his own, they should never have more than 48.9% and thus never have been in a position to oust him.

    So this article - and corporate finance - just makes me even more confused.

    1. Re:I still don't get it... by halivar · · Score: 1

      From my understanding, they had an option to purchase more shares (if this works like ESO's), and they exercised those options to purchase shares and then sell them to Lorraine Williams, giving her controlling interest.

    2. Re:I still don't get it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The Blumes exercised their options to buy more shares, which reduced Gygax's interest below 50%. They then sold all of their shares to Williams, who now controlled the company.

      The key issue is that the company was in a downward spiral at that point in time, losing money and having just laid off a huge percentage of their employees. Boardroom politicking like that often happens when a company is in that sort of situation. The knives all come out when the company has trouble finding the cash that it needs, and people see the opportunity to redress old slights. It's unclear to me whether the company structure was fatally flawed from the beginning, or if things would have turned out better if Gygax had kept his eye on the ball better as far as the company went.

    3. Re:I still don't get it... by Thud457 · · Score: 1
      protip : surprisingly enough, /. properly renders < , > and & in comments.

      1371+40 < (2761-(1371+40))+700
      1371+40 < 1350+700

      --

      the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

    4. Re:I still don't get it... by camperdave · · Score: 1

      Stripping "Smaller Than".

      No. Stripping malformed HTML tags.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    5. Re:I still don't get it... by Chas · · Score: 1

      You forget, Gary's son, Ernie, also had shares. Ernie could be counted on to pretty much vote dad's party line.

      --


      Chas - The one, the only.
      THANK GOD!!!
    6. Re:I still don't get it... by Sir_Eptishous · · Score: 1

      if Gygax had kept his eye on the ball better as far as the company went.

      If memory serves me correctly, part of how things ended up in this state for TSR was because EGG was busy in Hollywood trying to get a D&D film made during 1985, and he actually took his eye off the ball while TSR was bleeding money. His heart was in the right place but he wasn't a smart businessman it appears. Also his ego was probably in the way of any clear thinking regarding business decisions.

      The Blumes probably just wanted TSR to get back on track and saw EGG as a roadblock to that. Then they made the deal with devil...

      --
      We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
    7. Re:I still don't get it... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Would having Gygax in Lake Geneva have made any difference? It's not like he was a good businessman, so I don't see he'd have a better idea of what to do than anybody else.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    8. Re:I still don't get it... by alva_edison · · Score: 1

      That's the +40 in the GP. Ernie only had 40 shares.

      --
      He effected a bored affect.
  10. Contracts up front even with friends/family by sjbe · · Score: 1

    Firing a relative or friend has repercussions outside of your business relationship.

    Yes it does. Which is why you need to exercise caution when hiring relatives or friends. Just as important you need any appropriate contract outlining the terms of their employment. If things go south (as they sometimes do) then you follow the contract to the letter. I've been business partners with friends and family and we took the time to agree how things would work up front. Some of the businesses didn't work out but they were dissolved amicably because we were clear up front about how things would happen. I'm still on good terms with them because we were honest with each other regarding what we wanted out of the arrangement and how it would work if things went well and if they didn't.

    Do you really think that a nasty money fight between friends and relatives with contractual obligations in a business would not affect the personal relationships between them?

    Of course it would but you can head most of those issues off by being VERY clear up front about how things will work. Say what you are going to do and then do exactly what you said you would do. If the other party can't deal with that then things were probably doomed from the start. I once had someone I respect a lot give me some very good advice. He said "Never get into a business deal you wouldn't be willing do as a handshake agreement but also never do a business deal where the details aren't spelled out on paper either." If you don't trust someone, don't go into business with them. If you do trust someone, protect yourself from being wrong by proper use of contracts.

  11. Re:5thed is irrelevant by halivar · · Score: 1

    13th Age is pretty great as a grab bag of awesome ideas to pull and slap onto your game of choice. I may never play a game of it, but it definitely inspired me. As for 5E, the best review I heard was: "The simplicity of OD&D, the quirkiness of AD&D, the versatility of 3.x, and the balance of 4E." That sells me, as those are my favorite aspects of those editions.

  12. I still don't get it... by leonem · · Score: 4, Informative

    The Blume family also exercised options -- which means creating new shares at a price agreed previously.

    They needed money to do this, and conveniently Williams' downpayment for their other shares was exactly the same amount.

    This is pretty standard: a company will often reserve X amount of notional 'shares' to be issued as options, and the existing investors are aware that their own holding will be diluted when these options are exercised. Until the options are exercised, however, they do not actually exist as shares. *

    * There are various caveats on all of this, as shares may be held in treasury by the company, converted from one type to another and various other things in order to avoid tax / split control differently to the profits.

  13. Set expectations up front by sjbe · · Score: 1

    Actually, that's a real problem for most of us.

    Shouldn't be in general. When your children misbehave or under-perform in school do you have a problem disciplining them? You did set out expectations in advance right? If you didn't then shame on you. Same with going into business with family. Set out expectations right up front and then hold them to those expectations and communicate how they are doing in relation to those expectations. If you do that things usually work out ok.

    A sociopath has no problem flipping the switch, to decide that they can ignore the family ties.

    Very few people are sociopaths but also too few are good at keeping business and family separate. Business is completely unforgiving of family relationships. The mere fact that someone is family in no way enhances the profits of the company. You can solve a lot of problems by being very clear right up front about how the business relationship will work. This doesn't mean it will necessarily be all kittens and rainbows but if you have a contract up front and live up to that contract then things usually work out fine in the long run. Understand though that there is a non-trivial chance of some seriously ruffled feathers if a family member or friend is performing such that they have to be fired. They are unlikely to be happy about it. But they also usually will forgive if you are simply doing what you said would happen before they started.

    You have to be very careful when hiring family. I'm married into a family where the family has had a successful business for three generations stretching over 100 years. It can work fine but it's hard and you have to be VERY clear about how it will work in advance. I haven't gotten involved with the business in part because I recognize the challenges of working closely with family.

    1. Re:Set expectations up front by kaatochacha · · Score: 1

      I've seen many family businesses that preach what you're saying, but when push comes to shove the family member magically emerges unscathed while some other unlucky fool gets disciplined/canned/hung out to dry.
      I think a lot of family businesses like to pretend that the family is successful because every member is inherently talented, when they're not. Reality shows up, and they choose to overlook it.
      I can STILL remember at one company, the owner's son whining about how everyone hated him and set him up when he drove a forklift, tines in the up position, into a garage door. Entire door ruined, anyone else would have been let go for that.

    2. Re:Set expectations up front by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Simple rule: 'Unless you are part of the family, _never_ work for a family business.'

      Also: It's OK to hire friends/family, just don't ever make them your immediate report.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  14. He got what was coming to him by imikem · · Score: 2

    Gygax, and TSR in general, got what they deserved in my opinion, following their "acquisition" of board wargame publisher SPI. Screwed thousands of longtime gamers such as myself (I played both RPGs and wargames extensively), who then like myself voted against them with our wallets, never spending another dime on that company. What goes around, comes around.

    --
    Perscriptio in manibus tabellariorum est.
    1. Re:He got what was coming to him by geekoid · · Score: 3, Informative

      TSR loaned SPI money. SPI defaulted n the loan. TSR got SPI.

      SPI would have died completely had they not gotten the loan in the first place. TSR was the only group that would lend them money to even try.
      TSR could have refused to give them the loan, and then just bought all there stuff during bankruptcy. They would have gotten it cheap because no one else wanted it.
      Yeah, you're not the only old person here.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:He got what was coming to him by imikem · · Score: 1

      Granted on the (very large) technicality. However, TSR sent me a letter afterward basically saying, "Haha, sucks to be you. We got the company, but we are going to do nothing at all for the S&T magazine subscribers, despite continuing to publish it. You want it, pay up again."

      Well, gee, thanks but, go to hell TSR.

      --
      Perscriptio in manibus tabellariorum est.
  15. New shares not required by sjbe · · Score: 1

    The Blume family also exercised options -- which means creating new shares at a price agreed previously.

    Not necessarily. The options may have been in the form of warrants which allowed them to purchase existing treasury stock. When a warrant is issued new stock is issued at the same time.

    1. Re:New shares not required by leonem · · Score: 1

      Yep, that's why I noted some caveats after my asterisk :)

      I have shares in a company on roughly this basis myself, only it's a little more complex. Some of my shares are real and issued, some are un-exercised options where the creation of the shares has been pre-approved (and therefore doesn't require agreement from the board to issue them), and some others are held as 'deferred' shares by another shareholder, which means they hold no rights and receive no profits for those shares (but they could be transferred / converted in future if the board agrees).

      It's all far too complicated for its own good, and it's an interesting experience watching people argue over the contents of a spreadsheet some of them don't understand... I'm not surprised at all that Gygax could fail to see this coming and/or assume his colleagues wouldn't see it.

  16. He did it to himself by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    He tried to assign exclusive rights ownership of works he created under TSR to be his alone. He didn't re-negotiate a royalty, he was holding the company hostage. I love what the guy gave the world, but come on... in what world is that ok?

    1. Re:He did it to himself by CronoCloud · · Score: 1

      While he lead to the creation of RPGs, as a game designer I have used him and TSR as the shining example of everything not to do.

      He's also a bad writer. A lot of the problems with early D&D are because of his intentionally archaic Vancian writing style sometimes obfuscated the rules in ways it shouldn't. The Gord the Rogue books are painful reads.

    2. Re:He did it to himself by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      "Created" is a reasonable word. It wasn't an entirely novel thing that sprang simultaneously from Gygax's and Arneson's brows, but it was creative.

      It started with the Chainmail medieval miniatures rules, and a fantasy supplement, although the combat rules were greatly modified from that. The magic rules were based on Jack Vance, but nobody who's read the Dying Earth stories will think it was a straight ripoff. Vance spells tended to be few and instantly decisive. There was a lot of stuff in the original rules that wasn't in Tolkien, but from assorted mythology and folklore and low-budget monster movies shown on TV on Saturday afternoons. I never thought the game had a Tolkien flavor, although that's pretty obviously where the elves and dwarves and hobbits^Whalflings and ents^Wtreants came from. (Half-elves in any version of D&D I've seen are way different from Elros and Elrond of Middle-Earth.)

      One very important element was the dungeon crawl. I've done various kinds of role-playing, and drawing up an interesting dungeon and running people through it is easy, as opposed to maintaining a consistent world with PCs having a significant effect on it. There's really nothing equivalent in fantasy literature that I'm familiar with, and no good way to do that in science fiction.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  17. Stock warrants by sjbe · · Score: 1

    But if Gygax already controlled 51.1%, it doesn't matter how many shares they buy; unless Gygax sold some of his own, they should never have more than 48.9% and thus never have been in a position to oust him.

    What you are overlooking is treasury stock and stock warrants. Treasury stock is stock owned by the company itself (often through buybacks) and most companies have some. I'm guessing the options held by the Blume family were in the form of warrants to buy treasury stock (or something very similar). A warrant is a form of an option. When a stock warrant is issued shares for that warrant are created but held by the company until the option is exercised. This means that the shares already existed and were owned by TSR but the Blumes had the right (but not the obligation ) to buy them at a fixed price. Warrants are dilutive so while Gygax held a majority of outstanding shares he did not own a majority of issued shares. Gygax's majority was contingent upon those share not getting exercised. When Gygax declined to buy the shares (he declined his first right of refusal) then they could be exercised and sold and at that point he was no longer a majority shareholder.

  18. Founders tend to make bad CEOs by sjbe · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Why the hell didn't they hire a competent CFO???

    It's a good question and more common than you might think. Part of the problem is that bringing in competent outsiders can be uncomfortable for company founders. Gygax clearly had a problem with involving anyone who was not a wargamer but the people who are competent at finance don't overlap heavily with people who are gamers. Plus when things are going well it is easy to think that you can handle it. After all, it's gone well this far right?

    One of the big challenges in growing a company is that the skill sets for founding a company and the skill sets for running it when it gets larger overlap far less than most people think. For every Steve Jobs or Jeff Bezos there are thousands of people who simply cannot make the transition from small company founder to big company manager. The founders of Google were actually smart enough to bring in some outside management relatively early because they knew they didn't really have the skillset at the time to manage a company with a stratospheric growth rate. It would be like hiring a guy who has never managed a network larger than 10 computers to suddenly take charge of Amazon's data warehouses. The skills needed are just on a completely different level.

    1. Re: Founders tend to make bad CEOs by sjbe · · Score: 2

      To be fair Steve Jobs didn't make the transition from startup WizKid very well at all... He got kicked out of his company got ten years... And used the time to seriously adjust his attitude toward his workers/managers.

      He did better than most. And you will notice that the company did quite badly once they kicked him out and recovered when he got back. No he didn't get everything right but he's one of the rare founders that was able to make the transition. Most do not.

      And by all accounts he was still an ass when he came back. Maybe a more polished ass an ass nonetheless. People overlook it because he got good results.

  19. same thing that always happens by geekoid · · Score: 1

    Company is make money, so some genius gets control and decide they can make more money by changing all the things their customers enjoyed.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  20. Arneson by Princeofcups · · Score: 1

    Ubiquitous, how did Gygax steal D&D from Dave Arneson by putting an A in the name? Calling Gygax the creator of D&D is like calling Stalin the creator of communism.

    --
    The only thing worse than a Democrat is a Republican.
  21. TLDR Version by wienerschnizzel · · Score: 3, Informative

    TSR, a small company dealing in the fringe hobby of "war gaming" got hugely popular at the beginning of 1980's thanks to an unexpected publicity from a hoax that got propagated by the national media.

    The company owners and executives, Gygax and the Bloom brothers were no skilled businessmen and they projected this sudden jump in the company's revenue into the next years, expecting it to grow tenfold in a year. They went on a hiring and acquisition spree accordingly.

    As the miraculous growth didn't come, TSR ran into financial problems, running on a $750k deficit by the mid 80's

    The Bloom brothers tried to get a big outside investment to get the company out of the red numbers but Gygax opposed - he didn't want non-gamers to control the company. To this effect he executed an ancient option he got when the company was formed, gained a (very narrow) majority of the company's shares and thus the power to strip the Bloom brothers of their executive positions and void the investment by the outsiders.

    In response the Blooms wanted to execute the option of selling all their shares back to the company for a large (but not outlandish) sum of some $500K but TSR could not afford it.

    Half a year later the Blooms executed the same option Gygax did before to gain a slight majority in the company and sold all of their shares to Lorraine Williams for a third of the price per share, making her the largest and a majority shareholder.

    One day later Gygax was stripped of all his executive positions in the company

    He fought the decision in court, but really had no case and eventually sold off his shares in order to finance his new business.

    How Gygax lost his copyright to D&D and Grayhawk the article does not say

    All in all a really boring story

    1. Re:TLDR Version by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 1

      No,its boring. You could make a good documentery on carpet that involved a well written plot and naritive theme, or you could just read off a trade publication history timeline. This is that.

      --
      Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
    2. Re:TLDR Version by wienerschnizzel · · Score: 1

      The article itself was not very clear about it. It really says the down payment was enough to cover the newly opted 700 shares at $100 per share, but it doesn't say what was the total price for all of the shares. I assumed it was $100 per share, but I don't really know...

  22. Oh please. . . by geekoid · · Score: 1

    oh, stop it. Do you know what not really DnD? Telling other people how they should enjoy their DnD.
    Why are you reaping animosity among gamers? It's stupid and you need to grow up.

    "Anything made by WoTC isn't D&D, you can be assured of that. "
    well, that's just a stupid statement.

    "Just because they have the rights to the name doesn't mean squat. "
    It means everything. I would also add the Gary also approved of WOTCs D&D
    .
    "I play in a hybrid 1.5/2nd ed campaign that is a blast, easy to play, and doesn't have the "I'm going to run a half dragon Priest/Archer/Wild Mage with psionics" vibe that the WoTC "editions" have. It is old school D&D and fun as hell."
    Great, good for you. I'm glad. That in no way means there is anything wrong with the other editions just because they aren't what you play.

    So, unless you want to list opjective reasons why one is better ad the other is not, just enjoy your game and stop telling other people there version are 'wrong', or 'bad' or not really DnD.

    And becasue wankers like you always bring this up as if it matters, I"m going to cut you off right now:
    I've been doing RPG for 38 years
    IT's logically fallacious to use that as a defense against my point.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    1. Re:Oh please. . . by castle · · Score: 1

      I hear tell that from out of Gary's own mouth when asked about D&D 4e, his response was Paper [expletive deleted] Video Game. Unconfirmed. :) I tend to agree though... with that opinion. I like video games too, but it's definitely a light on player crunchiness mode of roleplaying, which suits the method actor gamer types because their tactical senses are abstracted away into various quick and easy card-based recipes for success.

      I personally am a git'ard crunchy grognard favoring gamer. 4e is good for casual gamers, and it can be really fun if your DM can step outside of the training wheels that the system presents, which is really true of any pen & paper game. But the creative aspects that a crunchy system provides is ultimately more rewarding to me than having clearly defined class roles and niches to fill in a party. Still, you need healers, thieves, wizards and a good bunch of meat shields to get though most modules... :)

      GURPS Dungeon Fantasy ftw. Make GURPS easy with templates and play Temple of Elemental Evil all the way through.

      3 Gary. and despite his opinion on the quality of the game, he had a very good attitude about why people play, which solidly remained in his thoughts to the end. Sage.

    2. Re:Oh please. . . by halivar · · Score: 1

      4E was not a video game, or even remotely like one. The interrupt and reaction stack cannot be modeled in a modern CRPG.

      No, 4E was a CCG. Dungeons & Dragons: The Gathering.

    3. Re:Oh please. . . by CrashNBrn · · Score: 1

      I think it was like an unholy merging of WOW and MtG-CCG-like-mechanics with D&D's setting and backstory.

    4. Re:Oh please. . . by Sir_Eptishous · · Score: 1

      I've been doing RPG for 38 years

      Great, because you've been playing that long I'm supposed to agree with you about Pathfinder and WoTC. Sorry, I don't. You don't have to agree with me either. Thats the beauty of slashdot. Also, if EGG approved of WoTC that is fine, thats him. Not me.

      I see WoTC/Hasbro as a corporate profit generating system, whereby a new and more lame version of what used to be D&D comes out every few years, more expensive with more books and supplements to have to go out and buy. Thats the reality as I see it. Should we change the rules to Poker, Monopoly and Baseball every few years?

      BTW, I started D&D with the Blue Box in 1979, so you can do the math.

      I've tried 3.5, 4 and am actually about to try D&D Next(5.0?, etc;), because my group wants to and I said I would give it a shot. I love other games besides 1.5-2nd ed D&D. Traveller, Warhammer 40K, Gamma World, etc; I've played quite a few.

      A few things about the games I don't like, such as:
      1. Pathfinder modules and GM's "guide" the group too much, similar to video games. It seemed very much like the old text based games. I like Fantasy RPG's where characters have the freedom to do as they wish, which also leads to consequences of those actions. Not where it's like "You have to protect this temple against the raiders from Ad-Keroatia and their evil minioins".

      2. When I tried 3.5/4 the general breakdown of the character attributes, powers, skills, etc ad infinitum led to the sort of "superheroing" of characters. I admit it, I like a more conservative game when it comes to Fantasy base RPG's. IMHO that leads to players having to use cleverness and teamwork more. I'm not a fan of characters that can do and be everything.

      --
      We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
    5. Re:Oh please. . . by Sir_Eptishous · · Score: 1

      which suits the method actor gamer types because their tactical senses are abstracted away into various quick and easy card-based recipes for success.

      Bingo!

      --
      We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
    6. Re:Oh please. . . by alva_edison · · Score: 1

      You seem to think that Pathfinder Society is Pathfinder. That's like saying the RPGA is D&D. Pathfinder as a system can be run any number of ways by any number of GMs, like many other RPGs. However, it may be that you've not met a Pathfinder GM that will run the game like a sandbox, which it sounds like you prefer.

      Now, given your other comments, Pathfinder has a similar feel to 3.5 and 4th so you probably wouldn't like it on those grounds.

      --
      He effected a bored affect.
  23. Re:5thed is irrelevant by CrashNBrn · · Score: 1

    That certainly sounds interesting (at least), although D&D 3E was (at its core) really good too in the beginning. Yet it didn't take long at all for the warts to spread like wildfire.

    I really can't see them ditching "feats" - even Paizo's Pathfinder suffers from being saddled with "Feats & Specialty Classes".

    I think the key difference between (3E+ Style) Feats & Specialty Classes vs the 2nd-Edition class splat-books boils down to RolePlaying. The former (feats et al) try and cover all possible actions/RP opportunites, whereas the 2E splat books provided settings, optional rules, specialties and additional mechanics --- and since it was limited by "Proficiencies" the whole shebang was (somewhat) kept in check. Feats&SC proved to be popular and took on a life of it's own and added a whole 'nother meta-game with yet another obfuscating layer of min-maxing --- things that other gaming systems build in from the beginning with reasonable limits via Quirks/Talents/Curses/Advantages/Disadvantages.

  24. Re:5thed is irrelevant by halivar · · Score: 1

    On difference in 5E is the feats are sparser and bigger. Instead of a 5-level feat chain to make two-weapon fighting, you spend one of your rare feats to get the whole kit n' kaboodle. Feats are less incremental improvements, and more paradigm shifting.

  25. Re:5thed is irrelevant by CrashNBrn · · Score: 1

    Ah! verrrrrrry interesting :-)

    For some reason makes me think of the classic Best of's iirc Dragon magazine prints, Blue, Silver, Gold, Platinum (?).

    Perhaps that review's distillation evokes the in-between-time of AD&D and 2E.

    Possibly, taking the freedom of feats (when you get them), with the Conceptually and Spiritually, of the classes portrayed within those Dragon magazine pages (useful *Abilities* at specific levels), along with the mechanics that were in place prior to the atrocious Unearthed Arcana and awesome Oriental Adventures.

  26. Dangerous Journeys by LienRag · · Score: 1

    On a recent Slashdot post I read that Dangerous Journeys failed because TSR sued GG's new company.
    Has any one played the game?
    Was it really good?

    1. Re:Dangerous Journeys by redlemming · · Score: 1

      How do you define really good? It seems to me that most paper-and-pencil RPG players today fall into two groups:

      1. Those who massively emphasize role-playing over gaming (they like to call themselves "story gamers" in my area), and
      2. Those who really enjoy the gaming aspects, but like to mix some role-playing in.

      There is a third group, who want all gaming and no role-playing, but these folks tend to occupy themselves primarily with computer games, or with tabletop games like Descent, both of which arguably have no real role-playing. So these people aren't really "RPG players".

      Whether or not people will like DJ and consider it good will likely depend upon which of these groups they fall into. It has moderately complex rules. People in group [2] tend to like this, because this provides the foundation needed for creative tactical play: mastery of the rules in this setting is an asset.

      People in group [1] tend to prefer games with less in the way of rules. Instead of being a tool that provides a foundation for creativity, the rules are often seen as an obstacle by these folks. Mastery of the rules for this group is often characterized as rules-lawyering.

      Much of the criticism of DND 3.0/3.5 and Pathfinder comes from people in group [1], because these games have rich rule sets. These critics would not enjoy DJ for the same reason. Many of the folks making negative comments regarding Gygax in the current discussion probably also come from this group, because his work certainly fell into group [2].

      The other aspect to consider is that DJ was killed, possibly as a result of abuse of the legal system (that seems to happen a lot in the USA), long before it had a chance to develop its full potential. There is only one campaign setting, and very little in the way of canned adventures.

      For a RPG group to be successful requires far more in the way of good chemistry, a reasonable degree of maturity, shared interests, and an experienced GM, than the use of any particular rules system. From this perspective, the differences from one system to another are pretty insignificant. If a group has these things, one can easily have a good experience with DJ. Certainly there is some real creativity in the system.