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California Man Sues Sony Because Killzone: Shadowfall Isn't Really 1080
Sonny Yatsen (603655) writes A California man with nothing better to do has launched a class-action lawsuit against Sony because he claims he was harmed because Killzone: Shadowfall's multiplayer mode doesn't have native 1080p resolution as Sony originally claimed. He now demands 'all economic, monetary, actual, consequential, statutory and compensatory damages' as well as punitive damages from Sony.
as much as I don't care, some game companies need their hands slapped when it comes to false advertising. anyone remember simcity 4 multiplayer?
One one hand, this is a stupid frivolous lawsuit, but on the other hand game publishers have been feeding us so much bullshit and lies that I wish this guy would win just to make a point.
So he should just take it up the rear and not do anything about the company's lies? BOHICA! I'm glad he's suing. Let him represent the rest of us. Hopefully, companies will learn that they can't get away with this BS.
I'm for it. Blatant false advertizing needs to be punished and this is the route that's available to him.
what is 1080p? 1080p means there will be 1920x1080 pixels on a screen scanned top to bottom every frame. That is it. 960x1080 presented at 1920x1080 is 1080p. This still happens on TV all the time. 960x720 as 1280x720 is regularly used on TV. Its still 720p.
In all seriousness.... what kind of society have we become when we sue over something so meaningless?
The guy just wants his $50 back because the graphics in the game aren't as good as advertised. Frankly, that's actually a reasonable request. You tell someone the game will perform some technical feat, and it doesn't, no shit the customer wants a refund.
.... Awwww, do I even need a reason?
If I sprain my ankle, while I'm robbing your place.
If I hurt my knuckles, when I punch you in the face!
I'm gonna sue, sue, yes I'm gonna sue!
Sue, sue, yeah, that's what I'm gonna do!
I'm gonna sue, sue, yes I'm gonna sue!
Sue, sue, I might even sue you! Ugh!
If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
- so every second line consists of pixels from previous frames, but those are still pixels that are not the same as the ones in the current frame, the output has all of the 1920x1080 pixels in it, it's not like 2 lines of pixels are just 1 line stretched vertically. Technically Sony should win this.
That's a bit disingenuous. Could they render at 320x240 and stretch to fill so the output resolution is still technically 1080p and still advertise "1080p" support?
Kind of a trollish headline, but both Sony and Microsoft have advertised 1080p as one of this generations' primary selling points - how is their continued inability to deliver upon this not false advertising, and how else are we to change their behavior if not through legal action? (Please don't say "boycott".)
I too am sick of companies getting away with false advertizing of all kinds. (This wouldn't be a problem if it was simply a failure to develop according to plan, but they also advertize their resolution on the box.)
Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
I don't get what the .gif is supposed to mean. Are you trying to reference an image? Why didn't you hyperlink to it?
Fucking puerile moron.
Boy, that escalated quickly!
.jpg :)
Well, are the pixels that are 'filling up' the lines between the actual stretched lines are not just the same pixels from 320x240, then aren't those pixels unique in themselves?
Here is what I mean, take a 2x2 image, 2 lines total, have a 2x3 screen (3 lines total), output the first line from 2x2 image on the top, the last line from 2x2 image on the bottom and then fill the middle with pixels that are not even from this image itself. So now the question: how is that not giving you are 2x3 image? I mean the middle line there is not necessarily derived from information in the 2 lines in the 2x2 image. It's outputted onto the screen, the screen is filled with pixels.
The output is there, how the pixels were produced, by rendering a scene or by mixing and matching pixels somehow, technically that's a 2x3 image. It maybe that you don't like the resulting picture, but that's a different question.
Starting a class action lawsuit for not liking the product as much as you expected.... I don't think Sony should lose on this one, I mean they may lose, because in today's society you can sue and win for feeling offended, but other than nonsense like that, on the merits itself Sony shouldn't lose.
I mean if you don't like the product you can return it.
You can't handle the truth.
Yes, it's a first-world problem, but at the same time, that doesn't excuse Sony (and Microsoft) for their false advertising.
Placed side by side with the worst atrocities in the world, all kinds of problems seem trivial. Still, they're problems. So you say "this guy has a serious first-world problem," and I say, "Isn't the world bad enough without companies like Sony and Microsoft piling on little bits of bullshit everywhere? Those little bits add up."
Whatever happened to 1920x1200? When I need another monitor for the office, I always look for these, they are harder to come by nowadays.
Grab the BenQ BL2411PT. It comes with an 1920x1200 IPS panel. Also doesn't use PWM dimming, so no eye strain or headaches.
Well, it's really upscaling to 1080p. Remember, Sony is advertising heavily that 1080p on the PS4 is better than the 1080p output of the Xbone. (Which it technically is, even though practically speaking most people won't notice the difference). Yet, the Xbone is hammered constantly because it cannot do 1080p versus the PS4, which can.
Especially since the Xbox 360 could do 1080p since practically the beginning (it has a scaler chip).
So if Sony argues it doesn't matter, it really throws out all their marketing that 1080p matters and gives Microsoft ammunition that hey, the Xbone's graphics are just as good.
As for 1920x1200, well, 1920x1080 is 16x9 which was long ago decided as a compromise resolution between TV's 4x3 and cinema's 2x1 or 2.21 anamorphic - it's a compromise that for a given screen size, 16x9 gives the largest letterboxed image for movies (~2-2.21x1), and the largest pillarboxed image for TV (4x3).
And 1080p monitors are highly common because economies of scale mean the video input processors and LCDs are stupidly cheap (since the timings and all that are well standardized), while finding one that does 1920x1200 means using a higher end chip that might go in say, a 2560x1440 chip which costs more money and more R&D time to get it to 1920x1200 (which is not a standard timing so someone has to go and figure out how to drive the LCD properly).
That said, they're NOT that hard to find. I think even Dell put them up fairly cheap nowadays (about $300 or so).
Or heck, just get a consumer 4K monitor (3840x2160). DisplayPort works fine for 60Hz, and they're pricey now, but dropping fast (under $600 on sale for a Samsung).
No, to get 960x1080, every second *column* is filled with pixels from the previous frame, and those *are* pixels from the previous frame; Sony and Guerrilla's argument is BS, and that's what the guy's beef is: The game is not presenting 1920x1080 from the current frame, but only half that, and the blurring is degrading the image. As the part you quoted states: "The result is graphical performance that the lawsuit (and many reviews) call 'blurry to the point of distraction.'"
Also, 1920x1080 is a standard because it's 16:9 (the ATSC standard), not 16:10, which is what 1920x1200 is. Go ahead and buy 1920x1200 monitors, but TVs will either support the standard, stretch the 1920x1080 image to fit, or "letterbox" videos leaving black bars at the top and bottom.
Killzone's multiplayer mode actually outputs natively in 960x1080 resolution, half of the 1920x1080 standard for "1080p." To output full 1080p graphics, this source image is fixed with a "temporal upscale" that fills in gaps with a horizontal interlace made up of pixels from the previous frame. The result is graphical performance that the lawsuit (and many reviews) call "blurry to the point of distraction."
Last time I checked that's called interlaced video, not progressive. Just because source video is 1080i, but goes out the HDMI video transmitter chip as 1080p it does not make it OK to call it 1080p since the source video is not progressive.
This space is not for rent.
The game does run at 1080P in single player, the issue is that the game does not run at true 1080P in multi player.
I don't really see the issue myself, as much as I dislike Sony they probably should win this one.
Besides the whole issue will probably disappear in a couple of patches.... (everything is in beta these days.)
What you're describing is what TV sets already do to display interlaced video. The reason why "1080p!" is an advertising point is because 1080i, even after interpolation, is inferior; that's why they weren't using that less-deceptive description to begin with.
If they don't like being sued for fraud they can stop committing fraud.
What is this garbage? Make all games 1920x1080, 60 fps, low latency. The hardware is powerful enough to make even good-looking games with these specs if you want to.
To output full 1080p graphics, this source image is fixed with a "temporal upscale" that fills in gaps with a horizontal interlace made up of pixels from the previous frame.
- so every second line consists of pixels from previous frames, but those are still pixels that are not the same as the ones in the current frame, the output has all of the 1920x1080 pixels in it
So..in other words, they advertised 1080p and are delivering 1080i, but presumably at a 1080p frame rate instead of the usual, faster 1080i rate.
I think you're trying to argue that it's still 1080, and it is, but it's still not what they advertised. No, this guy shouldn't be suing them. The FTC should be fining them for false advertising.
It doesn't hurt to be nice.
I don't get what the .gif is supposed to mean. Are you trying to reference an image? Why didn't you hyperlink to it?
Fucking puerile moron.
Boy, that escalated quickly!
.jpg :)
Whatever... I learned a new word today! puerile.png FTW.
You just described 1080i, which is not 1080p.
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Does YIFY work for Sony?
- so every second line consists of pixels from previous frames, but those are still pixels that are not the same as the ones in the current frame, the output has all of the 1920x1080 pixels in it, it's not like 2 lines of pixels are just 1 line stretched vertically. Technically Sony should win this.
That makes it 1080i, not 1080p. If Sony's advertising this as 1080p technically they should lose. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I...
Sigger than your average
Yeah, that's why he's using a serious first world solution, rather than the old school way of gathering a tribe to sack and torch Sony's headquarters.
"They were pure niggers." – Noam Chomsky
Sounds like they reinvented interlacing, one of the great evils of the analog era.
It's like a horizontally-interlaced version of 1080i, rather than 1080p. Imagine sweeping the view from left to right. Depending on the speed of rotation, there's a chance that the part of the screen that's under the even fields on one frame will be under the odd fields on the next frame. Overall, I'm sure it's better-quality than upscaled 960x1080p video would have been, but noticeably inferior to progressive-scan 1920x1080 video at 60fps (which is what Sony originally advertised it as, apparently).
I'm with you on the 1200-line monitors, though. The shape is much more pleasant than a 16:9 screen, and it can fit more information on it.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
No, this guy shouldn't be suing them. The FTC should be fining them for false advertising.
Yes, he should be suing him, He is the consumer who was the victim of false advertising.
And Yes the FTC should be fining Sony.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
We use 24 fields at 320*270, interlaced vertically and horizontally, to provide a true 1920x1080 resolution picture to our customers, with field updates at 60FPS. Never mind that the whole screen only updates 2.5 times per second; we believe that this provides a full-quality experience, avoids upscaling the image, and nicely lines our pockets with your hard-earned, sweet, sweet cash.
--No one, Ever.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
Essentially (as many others have already pointed out), they gave him a 1080i game - possibly at a crappier framerate than even real 1080i - while advertising 1080p.
It would be interesting to see how this pans out as I'm guessing this is pretty common for many games, and not just Killzone
Know what else is a first world problem? Bitching about first world problems on Slashdot.
Does not change the fact that Sony is making a bogus claim in their advertising claims.
Is it life threatening? Absolutely not. But it's still false advertising, which is still illegal.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
People with functioning brains will remember CRT monitors measured in inches, hard drives measured in 1000 instead of 1024 kbytes, 4G phones that weren't. Nothing happened to them, and nothing will happen in this instance. The judge will rule: It's common advertising, all vendors do it, and people understand what it means, so worrying about it is being pedantic.
The only thing worse than a Democrat is a Republican.
They are not pixels from the previous frames. They are new pixels generated using pixels and motion vectors from the previous frames.
Mada mada dane.
It's not hard to find.webp
Namely the "no refunds EVAR" on games that retailers seem to take. Even if it doesn't work, oh well too bad it's software so you can't have your money back. It really shouldn't be allowed. Anything else you can take back if there's a problem, but not software because "Oh you might be an evil pirate!"
Really? First match.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Except that you usually cannot return an opened video game (or opened CD or DVD), because of the suspicion of piracy: http://help.walmart.com/app/an...
Also, your explanation is like a designer saying: "What, you wanted the picture with a 1920x1080 resolution? Yea, I made it 320x240 and then stretched it using Microsoft Paint and saved it at a higher resolution. It's 1920x1080, what's your problem?"
I'm no expert, but isn't their "novel idea" essentially 1080i?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
The compromise was between TV's 4:3 (almost exactly film's original ratio) and 1.85:1 (non-anamorphic film ratio). Cinemascope/anamorphic didn't really factor into it.
That doesn't apply to all DVD's. The ones encoded with 3:2 pulldown should have all 480p worth of image data spread across the fields. The progressive players will reverse the pulldown, get a 480p image, and then re-do pulldown for the TV (unless TV and player support 24p output). Not all progressive players actually do that. Another marketing term used to give false impressions.
Last time I checked, that phrase is still going strong. Course, I haven't checked in 5 years or so.
That would be the case if it was vertical gaps. This renders with horizontal gaps. There are 1080 lines in each half frame, but only 960 columns.
I like that resolution, too. Reasonable balance between not enough room and dealing with all of the font/scaling issues of the higher-resolution monitors. One of my compadres chose the lower resolution of two high-resolution monitors because the higher just didn't look right in side-by-side comparison. Besides, I look at the monitor much more than the TV, so it should have "more", too.
I recently picked up a Dell U2412M, and may order another to keep as a spare.
Video games are also an adults' hobby these days.
You can buy a version of Tetris for the Xbox One that runs at 1080p and 60 frames per second. Is that false adverstising? There are pixil art games on the PS4. The console can output them as 1080p. 1080p does not equal detailed. When people buy games they tipically watch videos and read reviews.
Except that you usually cannot return an opened video game (or opened CD or DVD), because of the suspicion of piracy
Amazon don't seem to have a problem with it, in my experience. I've sent back a few because they weren't technically up to scratch, in my opinion.
systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
If it outputs to 1080p, then sure. Rendering and displaying are two very different things.
Yeah? And the meme of referencing an animated gif with an incorrect file name and no working hyperlink is fucking stupid, and people like you do nothing but contribute to the idiocracy in this country. It's gotten so bad, the god damn eurotrash insult us on this site with impunity while I get down-modded when I respond
Eurotrash? Dude, even the igloo-dwelling, beaver hunting, poutine eating canadians are making fun of you.
XML is a known as a key material required to create SMD: Software of Mass Destruction
Look at the original post. It is a class-action.
Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
If I ask a grocer for 2kg of potatoes, and he gives me 1kg of potatoes and charges me for 2kg, I think I have a right to complain. Why do we let computer people get away with that sort of nonsense?
In fact, if Microsoft made a table with 64GB of disk space, but it only made 23GB of that available to the user, you'd all complain about that:
http://hardware.slashdot.org/s...
Attack its weak point for massive damage!
There are 1920 columns in each frame. What's different is how half of those columns are rendered.
Mada mada dane.
It's not 1080i either.
Mada mada dane.
It's not. Here's how it works.
Mada mada dane.
Way to miss the point. They are essentially two frames being displayed at once. The signal resolution was not what was being discussed.
You just described what it did, and described 1080i. It's like describing a human with male junk and physique and chromosomes and claiming you were promised a woman, and when someone points out it sounds like you got a man instead, you're like, "It's not a man, either."
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I didn't describe anything, and if you still think it's 1080i, then either you didn't understand how it works correctly, or the person who described it to you got it wrong. I posted a link earlier to the game developer's blog where the technique is described in detail: https://www.killzone.com/en_GB...
Mada mada dane.
The I stands for interlaced, where the p stands for progressive.
Interlaced video simply looks like ass on crisp displays.
They need to be fined for false marketing here.
- Zav - Imagine a Beowulf cluster of insensitive clods...
The description in the OP is pretty harsh in saying he's claiming he was harmed by this. I doubt that very much, but indeed this is false advertising and we won't put up with it.
Of course, have you noticed that we all take issues with our video games ultra seriously, like it's a super big deal man, but if shit goes totally sideways for some people locked in their country with bombs raining from overhead, or starving to death, or having acid sprayed at them for wanting to *LEARN*, or cutting themselves picking up sharp metal objects out of trash at age 6 for a meal every day, well that's unfortunate and maybe we should go play some video games to make ourselves feel better.
Sadly, a Libertarian cannot force his views on another, and freedom cannot spread as does the cancer known as religion.
That's not really a great explanation.
However, it seems that instead of just plonking down alternating stripes of the previous frame (which would be analogous to 1080i), they use a first-order difference (possibly tweaked in some way) of the previous two frames to extrapolate the positions of pixels into the next frame. They then anti-alias this extrapolation by using the previous frame again. So, instead of using the previous frame for the inferior stripes, they blur together the previous frame and their extrapolated frame and use that.
I don't know how this actually looks, but it sounds like an ugly hack to me. It probably looks way closer to 1080i than it does to 1080p. If it actually looked good, then we could double the frames-per-second on everything by just doing linear interpolation/extrapolation. Have you tried doing this? I actually have. It looks like shit, although kinda trippy sometimes.
"They were pure niggers." – Noam Chomsky
well, yeah, mail-order places are required by law to give you 30 days, unquestioned, to return anything. they try to make it seem otherwise, or to look like they're doing you a favor, but it's really because it's the law.
you can thank the federal government for this.
"They were pure niggers." – Noam Chomsky
you can thank the federal government for this.
No I can't, since I don't have a federal government.
It was also far beyond 30 days in a couple of cases.
systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
The original Xbox even had marginal support for 720p. When the 360 came out, I was so excited to finally have a device that could make use of my extremely expensive 1080p screen... but alas, the majority of games were only 720p. They did look very pretty in their own right... but on a nine-foot wide screen, the jaggies are pretty noticeable. The only games that got 1080p were kids games that required minimal processing power... and pretty sure most kids couldn't give a flying fuck that they were actually getting the full 1080p.
So then the PS4 and Xbox One come along. Surely, with the average three year old gaming PC being easily able to play games in 1080p with moderate graphical quality, these snazzy next gen consoles will FINALLY support the HD standard that came out A DECADE AGO, right?
Noop. And now the PC MASTERRACE fanboys have that much more to gloat over.
In Soviet Russia, dot slashes YOU!
So turn the monitor on its side, then fine them. "But it's horizontal, not vertical" sounds like the type of bogus technical argument any competent judge would throw out.
It doesn't hurt to be nice.
Then it would be 960i
Rather, 1920i.