Slashdot Mirror
Is It Time To Split Linux Distros In Two?
snydeq writes Desktop workloads and server workloads have different needs, and it's high time Linux consider a split to more adequately address them, writes Deep End's Paul Venezia. You can take a Linux installation of nearly any distribution and turn it into a server, then back into a workstation by installing and uninstalling various packages. The OS core remains the same, and the stability and performance will be roughly the same, assuming you tune they system along the way. Those two workloads are very different, however, and as computing power continues to increase, the workloads are diverging even more. Maybe it's time Linux is split in two. I suggested this possibility last week when discussing systemd (or that FreeBSD could see higher server adoption), but it's more than systemd coming into play here. It's from the bootloader all the way up. The more we see Linux distributions trying to offer chimera-like operating systems that can be a server or a desktop at a whim, the more we tend to see the dilution of both. You can run stock Debian Jessie on your laptop or on a 64-way server. Does it not make sense to concentrate all efforts on one or the other?"
It's up to the distro to focus on what they want and make declination either for desktop, or servers, mobile, embedded, etc. None of this has anything to do with linux which is, you know, just a kernel.
Video of some good progressive thrash music
This is already done. For instance, I personally use Turnkey Linux for my servers and Debian Linux for my workstations. Both of these use Debian as their back end repository system, but Turnkey Linux has a system setup tuned specially for working within a virtualized server environment, whereas Debian Linux is more general purpose (which is what a workstation needs)
Hogwash is my gut reaction. I can't be bothered to put any more thought into this or actually read/reason through the article. Its almost quitting time.
This is why Linux is so modular, or was before systemd started cancering everything.
You start with a server and added desktop stuff when you want it.
The issues that brought systemd into existence (coordinated handling of a frequently reconfigured hardware as things are plugged in and out and connections go up and down) is not different to hardware that reconfigures frequently due to power saving, with things turning on and off. This just isn't a big issue in server chips right now, but it will be in the future as advanced power saving techniques move from mobile to desktop to server. Then the split will look silly.
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
Splitting upstream would be disastrous. (Desktop would lose the behemoth of code contributions from Redhat for the most part). Just leave it to the distro's to do the 'splitting'. EG Ubuntu Server vs Desktop
Yes, more fragmentation in the Linux community will make things even more usable for your average user! He should write a custom package manager for servers and another for clients, because we don't have enough of those. Let's fork the kernel too -- or at least make a completely different fork of GLIBC so we'll need to recompile every package we want to install from source -- as God intended. The year of the Linux Desktop is here!
-- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
Linux needs to be even more splintered.
Betteridge's law of headlines. No. The article doesn't say a whole lot. Just makes the assertion that "servers" and "desktops" are different, and lightly appears to dislike systemd. Tries to make the assertion that the security concerns are different on the desktop and on the servers, but doesn't provide a strong argument for that assertion (or really any assertion it makes).
I've always been impressed with how rock-solid, and well, server-like the Debian desktop has been. I wouldn't want to give that up - it's simple, it's clean, it's ultra-reliable. If I want to run a website or allow remote access, there's really not that much to learn. Compare that to the complexity of Windows server.
Is this split actually a valid suggestion, or more anti-systemd rhetoric? If there was no such thing as systemd, would you even care about splitting?
Allow me to make the following naming suggestions
Desktop:
Linux Standard
Linux Pro
Linux RT
Server:
Linux Storage Workgroup
Linux Storage Standard
Linux Server Foundation
Linux Server Essentials
Linux Server Standard
Linux Server Datacenter
RedHat 7 ships with systemd. But, but, but, we all know that RedHat totally and completely abandoned the desktop years ago.
So we have two options. Either systemd is not just for desktops or RedHat never completely abandoned the desktop. Either way, there is no need to split distros. RedHat does provide a nice tool called 'tuned' that helps tweak kernel and system parms for desired load.
What do you call both forks? The portable one "linux" and the server one "LINUX"? At least it would be easy to remember which is which, although googling with a difference may not work so well since Google mostly is case insensitive.
Table-ized A.I.
I am a linux sysadmin, and many of the packages required for desktop use not only don't apply to me, but are pretty well useless. I would love to see a distribution where any dependency on X11 was not only stripped out - but *compiled* out. I would love to see a distribution where systemd was not getting its mitts into everything.
But it's not only that, it's tuning. I discovered that Ubuntu's default scheduler settings on a Dell R620 with 384G of RAM and a nice beefy RAID 10 array are actually the *worst* settings for this kind of system. Everything else I tried - other schedulers, tuning CFQ, etc., they all led to better write throughput. Which leads me to wonder how many processor and other cycles are wasted because sysadmins just install with the default settings and hope for the best?
There needs to be a distro where the adults are in charge. I'd even build it if I had time, and I most certainly would be willing to put some time into working on one.
For linux tips: http://www.linuxtipsblog.com
The byte-wise difference between a desktop, laptop and server based on the same distro is in the tiny fraction of a percent. It's mostly some minor tuning and chkconfig tweaks. The difference between an optimal desktop and optimal server is in the choice of distro.
Either pick a distro based on some sense of case sensitive optimization or standardize on a distro for supportability (at the cost of optimization). Forking a distro is the worst solution.
A server is just a bigger laptop. Don't laugh: technologies such as virtualization, para-virtualization, SSD, dual-type disk drive HDD+SSD, low-power CPUs, multiple high-density CPU cores and even high-end graphical cards can be found in both types of PC (Think OpenCL on the server, and Unreal Tournament -- or whatever the shoot'em up du jour is -- on the laptop for that last one).
Linux and BSDs make this possible, even trivial. Heck, these days, a lot of people even test entire server platforms or AJAX applications on virtual machines on their laptop - I know I do. Ideally, all machine should be both servers and personal machine.
I want my operating system to be flexible and able to adapt to different computing platforms. I want something smart enough not to push a GUI down my throat if I don't need it. Improvements on one platform will also be a benefit to the other. Having a laptop with 24 to 48 CPU cores may still be science-fiction today. But it won't be tomorrow. On the other hand, building a fast SSD-only Petabyte server using nothing but laptop SSDs would allow you to cram way more data... for less price than those slow SATA disks.
In other words: splitting Linux is simply a bad idea. Thanks, but no thanks.
The right to offend is far more important than the right not to be offended. (Rowan Atkinson)
It would take a huge reason to turn around decades of server-workstation consolidation and all I see here are poorly supported buzzwords.
Focus on somthing worth doing.
as desktop and server. Never had issues with Debian in either role.
This smacks of the race to the bottom of making everything simpler, easier, remove all the "scary" options. Heaven forbid IT workers have to exercise their brains. I've been in IT for three decades. I honestly miss when IT workers were seen as those who practised the dark arts instead of everyone knows a little about IT. I really do miss my server room.
... a `Professional' and `Home' edition as well?
Seriously... is this what some people believe is holding back wider Linux adoption? There's already more than enough FUD in the press and on the web in articles about Linux providing too many choices now without adding a server and desktop edition for the naysayers to complain about.
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
Last week, the complaint was that systemd was making Linux look like windows. This week, the plan is to adopt the Windows server/workstation design philosophy as a fix to the problem..
I saw a lot of assertions in the article, but none seemed to actually have any data behind them. Nor, is it really apparent how a fork would leave either branch the critical number of developers needed to handle the respective branches.That is aside from the fact that the 2 kernels would have about 95% overlap in code base, which would separately need to maintain their own build environments and development paths.
Let us look at one of the assertions:
"However, they're also demanding better performance for desktop-centric workloads, specifically in the graphics department and in singular application processing workloads with limited disk and network I/O, rather than the high-I/O, highly threaded workloads you find with servers. If Linux on the desktop has any real chance of gaining more than this limited share, those demands will need to be met and exceeded on a consistent basis."
How would a kernel fork address this? If the need is there now, in what way is the current environment stopping the developers from releasing code to address these issues?
Linux has already split into two different versions a few years ago.
The "server" version is called GNU/Linux, and encompasses the hundreds of distributions designed to look and act like a class Unix workstation.
The "end user" versions are Android and Chrome OS.
After all, you can take a Windows server and essentially turn it into a desktop OS with a little tweaking. The problem with Linux is that it is very fragmented, which is Linux's greatest strength and its greatest weakness.
Linux is great for technologically savvy users who want to customize it for a specific role. It is not so great for users who lack technical expertise or the time to administer it. Linux evangelists have been claiming it would take large amounts of desktop user share from Windows. You still see some of those around, but they tend to be quieter. The Unix OS that took away Windows market share was OSX, because like Windows, it has a unified, consistent codebase and is developed to be easy for end-user.
Splitting up Linux would not suddenly make Linux server or workstation uses stronger. Most technical end users of Unix (that I have known) have switched to OSX or some combination of Windows and Unix environment (cygwin or SSH to a UNIX/Linux box). Paid development and unified code simply has advantages that Linux will probably never be able to match. All splitting up linux would accomplish is divide already scarce developer resources.
People should love (or hate) Linux for what it is, a fragmented mess for the average end user that is imminently hackable and customizable to fill any possible role by experienced users who are willing to put in the time and effort.
Install Ubuntu Server 14.04.1 and you have a fairly minimal server OS. Do 'sudo apt-get install kubuntu-desktop' and suddenly it's a desktop OS. Going back isn't quite so simple, but you can 'sudo apt-get remove kubuntu-desktop' to get most of the way there.
> Desktop workloads and server workloads have different needs
Do they? Desktops are all multi-core. In the future, they will become more multi-core. Just like servers.
A server is I/O bound... or is it? I'm not in the know anymore, but a lot of server load seems to be happening cached in memory ("if you're hitting the disk, you're already dead") and attached to massive fiber channels in a localized rack. The beloved ACID of reliable storage is being eschewed for noSQL databases that are little more than backs for volatile in-memory operations. And then there are the compute clusters, which may be CPU or IO bound depending on the job and how well it can be made parallel.
Desktops have more peripherals, but that's a driver thing and not a kernel issue.
I suppose you could make the argument that a server has throughput focus, whereas a desktop is typically latency focused, but that's an issue for the scheduler, not the whole kernel. And either desktop or server can benefit from improvements in both. It's only an issue when you have to decide on a tradeoff.
They're all Von Neumann machines scheduling tasks and doing I/O. Jobs are different at a high level, but it's all just bits getting shoveled through a pipe.
I reject your premise.
Besides, a distro can decide if it wants to be desktop (*cough* Unbuntu), server, or embedded.
Please feel free to pick-nits, because clearly that will prove me wrong. /s
Paul Venezia is just another sore systemd hater who can't accept that all major Linux distros are changing to systemd.
That he think systemd is mostly for desktops just show how much he has lost contact with Linux. There simply isn't any commercial interest in keeping SysVinit or even Upstart alive. The market would have reacted long ago if any companies where queuing up to pay for new Linux SysVinit releases. They are not.
Several companies have even switched to using systemd even though it wasn't officially supported on their distro yet, simply because systemd offers so many advantages over legacy script based init-systems.
There is no coordinated non-systemd development taking place in the Linux community at the moment. The few non-systemd distros left haven't even begun to cooperate. So it looks unlikely right now that any non-systemd distros of note will survive into the next decade.
There is a reason why commercial Linux vendors like Ubuntu and Red Hat are supporting desktop editions, even though they don't generate any money; without the desktop you will start to lose developers. It is that simple. That is also the main reason why BSD's are using GPL'ed DE's even though their sponsors can't resell them as close source software like the rest of the core BSD components; without a DE, the BSD variants would have even fewer developers.
So it is pretty much distro suicide to split a distro up in two different and incompatible versions, one for the desktop and one for the server.
One of my favorite distros is OpenSUSE. In its repos, it has several different kernels -- there is a default one, but also ones for virtualization and a desktop specific one. I always figured they had the different kernels that were tuned/tweaked for the different needs. If you wanted to switch from a desktop to a server or vice versa, simply install/uninstall the packages you need, including switch the kernel, then reboot and you're done.
I don't know enough about their tweaks to know if the desktop vs server kernel makes a difference, but I imagine it does or at least could in the right circumstances. I think the power of being able to change around some packages and get the effect you want is better than fragmenting the distro. I appreciate having access to all the features and being able to mix and match.
I'm friggin tired of installing Linux as either server or workstation and finding a bunch of stuff that's oriented to making a laptop work well. I want to be able to do a clean install that by default has no support for Bluetooth or wifi or dhcp client, let alone a propensity to rewrite /etc/hosts or handle any aspect of networking in anything but a hand-configured way. Also, even if systemd's part of the distro, standard text logs should be there by default, as well as cron and a working /etc/rc.local file.
"with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
This guy has no clue, it is complete crap this gets any traction on slashdot.
Leave your family out of this.
...is for software to do one thing, and do it well.
A computer does not (usually) need to be both a server and a desktop, though perhaps desktop versus server is more a matter of the windows manager rather than the whole distribution.
"...assuming you tune they system along the way."
Kelsey Grammer thinks one of them should invest in grammar and spelling system services.
snydeq, you are a fucking idiot. Seems to me like you are a non-technical or barely-technical journalist wannabe who actually knows little to nothing about Linux distros or the actual kernel. Because what's you've stated is just complete ignorant bullshit.
Yes, you can use a desktop linux install as a server, but dedicated server distros frequently have a different kernel.
Also if your idiot cronies think that the kernel needs to split between desktop and server kernels; fucking do it yourself. There's nothing stopping you except your own incompetence.
My guess is that you're either a sock-puppet for one of the shit /. editors probably samzenpus, or you're trying to get a job as a shit /. editor based on the number of garbage submissions you've made.
Now go fuck yourself.
And odds are this post is gonna get deleted by one of your crony editors; if not by you.
It happened. Move on.
OP misses a golden opportunity.
This should have been a thread about parting Linux with those
holding out for edlin and those holding out for vi.
Surely the world would be a better place if we
could round up all the edlin tards, put em in field
and carpet bomb the fsktards?
98 of the top 100 fastest supercomputers in the world run Linux. Most phones also run Linux. See also consumer electronics of all kinds - TVs, routers, webcams, consumer NAS drives ... Linux works everywhere. As Linux has been installed everywhere over the last few years, Microsoft has gone from a monopoly, the 800 pound gorilla, to trying to catch up in order to survive.
There is a reason for this. Linux didn't make any assumptions about what hardware people were going to use next week. Even the architecture could be whatever you anted that day - DEC Alpha, Blackfin, ARM (any), Atmel AVR, TMS320, 68k, PA-RISC, H8, IBM Z, x86, assorted MIPS, Power, Sparc, and many others.
Microsoft built specifically for the desktop, and supported one platform - x86. Suddenly, most new processors being sold were ARM, and screens shrank from 23" to 4". Microsoft could only scramble and try to come up with something, anything tat would run on the newly popular ARM processors, and ended up with Windows RT. Linux kept chugging along because they had never made any assumptions about the hardware in first place. To start maing those assumptions now would be stupid.
We don't know whether smart watches will be all the rage next year, or if cloud computing wll take off even more than it has, or virtualization, or a resurgence of local computing with power, battery-friendly APUs and roll-up displays. To specialize for "dektop" hardware or "server" hardware would be dumb, because we don't know what those are going to look like five years from now, or if either will be a major category. How many people here remember building web sites for WebTV? How well did that pay off, investing in building a WebTV version, then a Playstation version? The sites that faired these changes the best built fluid, adaptive sites that don't CARE what kind of client is being used to view them - they just work, without being tailored to any specific stereotype of some users.
The only benefit to such I model is the ability to charge more in licensing fees for the server version. Obviously that makes no sense here. Although I will say this, for any distro the is both frequently used as a server and is eye balling the abomination that is SystemD, they damn well better offer an init.d version.
Brought to you by Carl's Junior.
I assume that this is yet another click-bait blog-spam article, because I can't imagine that anyone who knows jack about Linux distributions wouldn't be aware that server and desktop variants of various distributions have been and still are done.
More to the point, anyone who wanted it done that way would've or could've already done it. That the more popular distros don't generally make the distinction or don't emphasize it should be taken as a fairly solid answer to the question posed in the headline.
Log in or piss off.
Well, the title refers to "Linux Distros" and a distro is, you know, just a distro...
-- 29A the number of the Beast
...from Paul Venezia.
Yes.
Why? I can't see a reason unless there is some reason that dictates doing so, like other OS's.
you wont find virtualisation in any big HPC or Hadoop cluster - its fast xenon's tons of ram and more or less DASD plus possibly a lot of pro graphics cards used as compute models and that not counting the radically different networking designs/tech used in clusters
I am responsible for several servers running Ubuntu Linux. My Lenovo Notebook runs Ubuntu Linux. For development, for testing, I want the same OS on my machine as we have on the servers. When I test code on my notebook and upload it to the server I want it to see the same environment. It makes no professional sense to me to develop code under Red Hat and then hope it runs under FreeBSD when a hundred people are watching it crash. I don't need optimization, I need reliability.
Windows Server and Windows Desktop don't use the same OS? What definition of Operating System are you using here?
They have the same system libraries. They have the same kernel, albeit optimized and configured differently. They support the same APIs, run the same applications, use the same drivers, support the authentication engine, support the same UIs and shells, and use the same package delivery systems. There are differences, but I've yet to see any technical reason why you couldn't turn a Server edition into a Desktop release or vice versa.
As a counterpoint, the Ford Mondeo (4-door/5-door midsized vehicle) uses the same platform as a Land Rover Range Rover Evoque. They have the same frame, many of the same components, and otherwise take advantage of factory line construction and economies of scale. However, in this case, you could at least argue that they have different 'Operating Systems' -- they have some differences which are arguably just optimizations and tuning changes (handling characteristics, consoles, etc.) but others that are physical differences (Seats, load/capacity, etc.). You don't see Ford running out to split the Platform, though. Why? Because it doesn't make sense. There are more things in common at the core than are different, and they can make more products at a lower cost by sharing the core of the car platform. Ford has a dozen or so active car platforms, used by different models across their various brands; most other car makers do similarly.
The author is making one of several possible basic errors.
1) They don't really understand the definition of a Linux distribution (e.g. RHEL v CentOS v TurnKey v XUbuntu v Arch v etc.)
2) They don't really understand the differences between Windows Server and Windows Desktop
3) They don't really understand the definitions of the Linux kernel, GNU/Linux, and the Linux OS
4) They don't really have a grasp of how software is made or how source code is shared
5) They weren't loved enough as a child and are desperately seeking attention.
This is like saying we need to create different compilers for AMD and Intel chips, as they have different architectures. It lacks understanding of the problem and understanding of how to address a solution.
The REVENGE of OpenBSD!
Maybe it's time Linux be split in two.
Its an incredibly clever headline- the fact you see it as pointless proves its point-
linux home
and linux pro
to anyone who knows they are the same then its pointless- to differentiate in the "market " so to speak- "im running linux" - which is a little ambiguous techy and a little pretentiously opaque.
Im a desktop user and im currently trying windows 8.1 its like fisher price windows with bits missing and going by the way it hangs differently to old windows it basically linux in any case. but system image- movie maker have all been fucked off i got to get the "apps".
like its a fucking telephone or summat.
but if i say im using linux home rather than xubuntu or linux mint 14.1oo54 beta build dont like my wireless card annoying but eventually functional trusty fucking narwhal or whatever.
its a marketing thing
linux home...linux desktop xubuntumulunturedhat97 pick a name and stick to it.
there are many falvours but without a definite vanilla that everyone agrees on yur not going to get average joe to drop his shiny imac anytime soon.
What about "linu xp" all those users who got win xp would love it- put all the functions in the same place instead of moving it all about like vista did.
it worked didnt it?
few modern tweaks but familiar- consistent. vanilla.
id prefer xp to this metro bollocks in any case.
but no itll be xubuntubuggytoofancillyquickforitsownfallovergood.
tryto do anything clever you can easily break it too as the tutorials are often assumptive as to which gui you might be using and where it stuffed its repositories this time now you got another verison and which file ediotr etc etc etc/
ubuntu was ok looking but someone put the x in the wrong corner so it was like a mac and sucked- could a changed it but went back to xubuntu cos by default its on the old xp side like im used to.
for that fact alone it got mty vote- but trying to set up myth tv???
fuck me- the hours ive spent trying to set that fucker up.
win 8.1 with media player? bompf works out the box.
even on an old shitbox from 2007 with tv card from the birth of digital tv too
thats what linux lacks is a tangible identity for the everyday user.
bang it in- everything works- problem is when your not selling it? well your not sellinfg it are you-?
linux home...linu-xp home edition with updates and everything arranged like xp-
someone program this please if it doesnt exist already/
doesn't mean you should.
Thinking that any Linux distro, just because it could be run in both environments, should be developed to be suitable for both seems wrong.
Why not just pick a desktop-oriented existing distro for your desktop and a server-focused one for your production environment?
And if you need to develop on your server environment, then this doesn't really matter to you, since you have to pick what's best for your production environment regardless of your desktop.
I haven't been all the way down the comment threads yet, so I don't know if this hasn't been linked in another, but it seems rather relevant and obligatory here: http://xkcd.com/927/
public perception- linux is famous-
ubuntu is for linux geeks-
and the x buttons on the wrong side of the screen like ibollocks stuff.
no other reason-
linux home is the edition you want - special user freindly -it works just like xp with a bit of android thrown in- on the surface its like xp but it can do much more---but only if you want it to.
chrome os- firefox os -or linux home os?
the versions that shipped with the netbooks of linux in the early days of netbooks were swapped out for xp
couldnt run anything faster either.
now microsoft have dumped xp- theres a whole bunch of users either still using it or have been forced to upgrade- why not just more of the same- once you have a definite user base you can modify and add features to suit- you could have open source arguments about changes like zuckerburg and jobs when the customers kicked off but with no compromises.
you would soon end up with an os all of its own.
open source and by its very own nature innovative and owned by its users- they paid for xp all these years ? why not let them keep it?
just stick on a linux backend.
http://www.linux.com/learn/answers/view/1491-what-linux-version-best-to-replace-win-xp
The answer from the article? keep xp - have both!
the actual answer is linu-xp - quick someone shuffle the desktop round on xubuntu and put the prgram installs and display menus and all the accesories and copy paint and etc etc etc.
someone will do it- ive never seen a good joke that might just be genius go to waste yet.
Have you made it yet? where can i download the iso?
soon get people thinking about linux properly when they look at it and think its windows.
Hypothetically speaking: Say I've got a mainframe architecture. You know, an ISA (Instruction Set Architecture) such as a Burroughs/Sperry/Honeywell/... I need a custom memory manager, a mainframe-level process manager, but current device drivers. Oh, and I want performance counters that can handle performance collection that predates some Not-Invented-Here-by-Linux-Kernel-Developers notion of how to collect performance data. To do this, I _really_ need to fork the kernel. And not get hung up on the fact that I don't fit into the notion of 'mainline' developers about how "perf" works, etc.
Consider the OpenBSD kernel, which architecturally resembles Linux 2.2 - there is one great big kernel lock, and the kernel can execute code on only one CPU at a time. This can impact performance, but does so while introducing SAFETY. Both kernels require occasional patching, but one is an order of magnitude less frequent than the other.
You can take a Linux installation of nearly any distribution and turn it into a server, then back into a workstation by installing and uninstalling various packages
After a lot of blood sweat and tears. Theoretically doable, Realistically a pain in the arse.
Paul Venezia == Bennett Hasleton?
People who like spoons.
"What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
"A four-foot prune."
But that's the point. Ubuntu uses the same kernel on both its desktop and server (and phone/tablet) installs. The only difference is the default selection of packages.
As one who works in the "embedded arena" for a living, if you think desktop/server is a PITA - ahhh, just you wait. . . .
With Linux on the rise in the embedded world, being able to customize your linux "system" (kernel options, boot loader, and root file system) becomes even more important, given limited RAM (generally 1GB). The company I work for provides an easy, simple solution for this, check it out: www.timesys.com
A server a desktop LINUX is a kernel. You can do what you want because it is freely released. If you are worried you could create a distribution called GNU/superserver and GNU/superdesktop. I would rather stick with GNU/LINUX and just install the packages I like. If that makes it a server or not then so be it. Why would you want to split LINUX into two or more kernels? I must be missing something.
I've still got tape drives hooked up to a four CPU Sun system with 8GB memory and less than 1TB of disk in total - a monster in it's day but outperformed by many laptops in this day.
The textbook version has the kernel as the OS, the common usage adds a pile of libs and userspace binaries that get close to the kernel and the MS vs Netscape version had the web browser as part of the OS instead of part of a software distribution. So with definition number three they are different operating systems, but with number one and two they are functionally the same.
So it's not a "basic error", it's conflicting definitions which have been distorted over time by people pushing agendas (MS legal with IE and FSF with "LiGnuX" then "gnu/linux") that have many thinking it's version three.
So while in your view the windows server and desktop systems are different operating systems in the view of others they are the same OS with different options added on top. It's about working out the context instead of complaining that someone else is using a different context.
Sorry you missed the boat on this. I've been splitting them for at least a few years. (As time continues to increase speed, I lose accuracy past 14 months)
*buntu with emphasis on Mint wins the Desktop.
SuSE and RH/Cent are the only real contenders in the "Enterprise Server" world. The *untu/Gentoo fanboys can rant on... doesn't change anything.
Mad props to Patrick Volkerding (sp?) for keeping Slackware running so well for so long. It sadly, doesn't meet the popularity requirement for Enterprise class.
Why would any serious user bother with it?
Ubloatoo is chasing the fashionista desktop market. I haven't recommended it to new users for years.
Looks like the submitter has trolled everything from windows to java to systemd.
systemd is a large experiment many hope goes poorly. But its there because there was a gap that applies to servers as well as desktops. Do better and you can kill systemd.
The days of pure desktops are coming to an end but it's issues are actually much like those that servers run into. systemd is objectionable but not because of desktop vs server.
I agree with you totally, but felt the need to add quite a bit.
Desktop workloads and server workloads have different needs, and it's high time Linux consider a split to more adequately address them, writes Deep End's Paul Venezia.
That statement reeks of an agenda. Linux has had the ability to run as a Server or a Workstation or both for as long as I can remember. The guy making said claim is an idiot, and I'll offer evidence to prove it.
What makes it a "Server" versus "Workstation"?
If you claim "Tuning", I'll tell you that every server gets tuned differently. An Oracle DB server gets totally different tuning from my SunOne LDAP servers, which are both different from Squid Proxies, which are all different than SMTP servers, and all of those are tuned differently than CAE or GPU simulation. Each of those tunings will be different depending on the hardware the OS is running on. 10Gb NICs get different tuning than 1Gb NICs, or Oracle on 128Gb memory vs. PAMCrash on 128Gb memory for two easy examples. If you make a "server" package with predefined tuning it will be for 1 application stack, and will probably the wrong tunings.
Further, these same tunings are also done on a Workstation all the time. Most often, this is for development and testing the changes. Just like most "server" applications are generally run for the same reasons on Workstations. So the goal of the author to split to Server/Workstation is a failure without any further consideration, and completely idiotic since it would require development, QA, and SA teams to buy more and more hardware.
Let's look at a couple other claims. SystemD vs. Init. Big whoop! That won't make a server different from a workstation either, Unix requires some type of initialization system. Different Distros may adapt different INIT systems, I'll pick the distro I find works best. The market and time will fix all problems with that one.
I suggested this possibility last week when discussing systemd (or that FreeBSD could see higher server adoption), but it's more than systemd coming into play here. It's from the bootloader all the way up.
Ahh, now that's the payload statement right there. Someone has the belief that if there is more fragmentation things will turn out their way, or that the threat of fragmentation will make things their way.
Sorry pal, that's not how things work. If you want to make your own distro, go to town. You can control every aspect from systemd (or not) to what packages and package manager you run, to what tunings you are providing out of the box. If it's a good distro, people will follow along and help you out. If it sucks ass for most users, you will be on your own with your own custom distro that nobody uses.
As I said above, your suggesting that Linux should be split is simply wrong. In fact it's provably wrong. Go look at Distro history. As soon as Distros start to strip things people need from their packages, people leave and find a new Distro. With the exception of Lindows who was sued out of existence by Microsoft, (and perhaps a couple others) thousands of Distros vanished or brick walled because some dickhead control freak(s) said "My way or the Highway" and started supporting only what they wanted instead of what the users needed.
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
Yes, X is a lot more bloated now than it was back in the late 1980s, when I was running it on 386/25 PCs or Sun3s. But on just about anything but an ARM microcontroller, it's still small enough that you can run a basic X distribution that's enough to fire up a browser, and still not make a dent in the system resources. And you need that browser to use lots of management applications, some of which you're going to need before all the networking is really done, and you probably also want to run a couple of X-terms at the same time, doing something that alternatively you'd have to do on a 24x80 Emacs screen.
Yes, there are lots of tools that want Gnome or KDE, which are both a lot more bloated than some TWM upgrade or Motif or something, and sometimes they're useful enough to drag them in, but you can still have enough X Windows for a server machine without including all the LibreOffice, GIMP, and other large desktop application suites.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
You want to take one of the most important advantages of a Linux distribution like Debian, the flexibility, and take it away?
This is one of the dumbest things I've seen on /. and I've seen some dumb.
There are already "specialist" distributions for people who don't know what they're doing or simply want something to plug-and-play. But Debian is not only a distribution unto itself, it is the basis for other distributions, like Kali, a meta-distribution if you will. And the OP wants to basically take this away from Debian or the other large distributions.
This has to be a joke, or the OP is a softie. If not a softie, then a quisling. Certainly not someone playing with all cards in the deck.
--
BMO
Not one worthy technical point. It is impossible to even comment. Why do people waste time trolling?
It's time to ditch Loonix.
No. Just no.
I am happy that Linux users have chosen systemd. First, it separates people who like Unix from those who want Linux to be like Windows. And then it's also good for me, because I have always seriously considered Linux distributions to be serious systems, occasionally trying several just to fail after some months. Now I know that since this whole mess is going on on the Linux platforms, I don't need to care about Linux anymore.
The choice is much simpler now. Thank you, Mr. Poettering.
Will the world of other OSes stop trying to corrupt ours? Will those who are accustomed to other OSes stop trying to make Linux more like theirs?
A Task, in the Debian vocabulary. task-xxxx-server, task-xxxx-desktop. Specially tuned kernels for each. I'm sure other package managers can do something similar.
Really, no need for a split.
I fully a agree. My main computer in on linux since many years. It is used as a normal desktop: browser, mail, office, scanner, printer and sometimes for development. I would like to be able to customize my development environment as if it was an independant virtual machine, but with the full power of my computer.
Just give users a choice! If they like systemd they should get systemd. If they like sysvinit, they should get that. If they like openrc, let them use openrc. What's the big deal? We already support gazillions of alternative implementations of the same service: web browsers, logging, editors... Nice examples: EDITOR env variable: vim, nano, pico, emacs,...; less, more; syslog, syslog-ng; vixie-cron, anacron; alsa, pulseaudio, esd; iproute2, ifconfig; iwconfig, iw;
There is a distro that will ease the split!
We all know what really needs to be done first and foremost... write a new editor with all the good features of vi, emacs, ed, notepad++ and textmate rolled into one powerhouse!
"Only one thing is impossible for God: To find any sense in any copyright law on the planet." - Mark Twain
I was wondering about the best way to achieve more linux fragmentation. Thanks for fixing it!
Windows internally is all the same kernel etc., with switches to control whether it acts as windows server or windows workstation. Why on Earth would Linux want to be handled as two separate streams? Note that adding features or fixing bugs would then have to be done twice, making it inevitable that errors wiill creep in if separate streams are done. Separating yet keeping 2 streams in sync is a load more work than keeping it all together as now.
Rather, just add some auto-tuning scripts or the like if this is needed so you can tell a system "be server" or "be workstation", if the existing controls are not good enough. Seems to me that they are, so the proposal to separate streams looks like a subtle attack, to perhaps prevent Linux from spreading more to desktops.
I've a big machine in the office at home. Some of its time it is a media server, some of the time a database server, apache/php web server and so on; equally it is my go-to client machine for highly interactive desktop applications like schematic entry, PCB layout, graphics and so on. Now it is not the music production machine, and on that I am using low latency kernel and I keep down the number of server-like processes. But they both came from the same distro, with light bits of tuning and configuration. I really, really don't want to have to manage multiple disparate distros based on usage of the day.
> Then you may be surprised to know that Windows NT had a version for DEC Alpha (and possibly a couple of other RISC CPUs), along with compilers to match.
From 1995 or 1996 until 1999, as I recall. So three or four years. Windows has been around for 29 years, since 1985. So let's try this:
90% of Microsoft's effort has been focused purely on x86, while Linux as always been architecture-agnostic.
try ubuntu or suse
Linux is a kernel. People should just focus on building distros focused on server or desktop purposes instead of trying to split up linux.
Most people with 96core servers don't considered a single-threaded kernel a good thing. OpenBSD is great for your dual core CPU, but expect more cores mostly a waste. But yes, OpenBSD is stable as bedrock in the midwest.
Personally, not being a developer, I wonder if there are ENOUGH qualified interested individuals to fully staff these two (and eventually more, once fragmentation starts) efforts so that all branches get good results.
It seems like Linux has gone this far because of its homogeneity of focus, effort, and direction.
Even though I use a Linux desktop, it is not 'good enough' for my spouse who needs a 'it just works with everything else' environment, and really uses it for her job other than an occasional solitaire game.
If 'server' side splits off, I could see it breaking up into 'web', 'storage', 'network, caching, antivirus, firewall & router', 'compute node', 'high-performance processing', 'media', even specialty like 'BItCoin Mining', etc type efforts.
There are already lots of factions. As much as I admire and respect Linus, we have a more important consideration of 'what to do when Linus leaves'. He will be with us for a long time, but we also need a 'controlling heir apparent' whether it is another benevolent despot (this has worked well for us so far, but I place that as a comment on Linus's personality and character, and not something many could pull off), or an 'committee' in whatever form it may take.
... "When you pry the source from my cold dead hands."
Splitting a distro in to multiple doesn't make sense. It should be as it is now, where a distro is released but can be customized at install time to include server or workstation packages. I'm not sure why we'd want to split in two. Distros offer not only the different packages but also different kernels even. It just makes sense to stick with ONE distro, but multiple ways to install and use it.
It is really a commercial question of where a distribution should focus its development efforts and where it can get revenues. Windows NT is a kernel too, but the desktop and server packages command quite different prices and embedded Operating Systems usually don't command a fee per device sold, just a flat fee for the manufacturer.
Based on my horrible experiences with systemd so far in the server room. Servers don't want systemd. One small mis-configuration and your hosed dude. And I don't see any reason for it on my desktop either. systemd is just a glorified way of making newbs feel like they are doing something useful, when all it is ... is a huge turd in what was an elegant server system. Forking is for fools unless you really need it. Java needed to be forked, Unix needed to be forked, but almost all linux distros *are* forks. If the fork consisted of re-writing systemd so that initiated below initd, and I could revert back to initd, /etc/inittab if I wanted, I would be all in favor of that.
With that said, the systemd people claim hundreds of virtues from systemd and like some newb convert to ubuntu, the will nit-pic each tiny little point over initd and praise the virtues of systemd. For example it doesn't load any heavy shell script language (like bash) to run a shell script. But systemd has over 43 binary executables to do what it does, and that is not somehow a heavier load than /bin/bash? That is BULL. That is also 43 executables that have to be built from source code, compiled, linked and loaded. And on top of that, there are several hundred targets, wants and things that all must be perfectly provided for this wonky cluster 'f' BS to work. I'm amazed it does work at all, but how will remain a mystery locked up with the designer of spaghetti like configuration cluster pile!
I can not tell you how badly this will effect future users of many linux distros. No newb will want to learn linux with this thing in place. It's the most complex overly glorified startup system I've ever seen, (second to Windows though).
No, it's not time to split Linux. What is needed now is a optimization/tuning framework that allows for tuning an existing distro to a target goal, such as desktop or server.