School Installs Biometric Fingerprint System For Cafeteria

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School Installs Biometric Fingerprint System For Cafeteria

Posted by samzenpus on Sunday September 14, 2014 @03:44AM from the paying-with-one-finger dept.

An anonymous reader writes with news about a school in England that has introduced a cashless cafeteria system that is raising some privacy concerns among some. Stourbridge students will soon be able to pay for their lunch without searching their pockets for change. Redhill School has spent £20,000 updating its dining facilities and introducing a cashless catering system. The system will allow parents to deposit funds into students catering accounts, to be debited by the pupil's biometric fingerprint scan at the point of sale. Headteacher Stephen Dunster said: "The benefits are that pupils are less likely to lose cash, parents know their children are using their dinner money to buy nutritious food and there will also be a system to alert staff if students are purchasing food that they may be allergic to."

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while the current system is: by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 03:45 · Score: 1, Insightful

biometric scanning of faces by a rent-a-cop's eyes and comparing it to a 2d-scan of that same face on a plastic card the students are holding up before his scanning eyes.
He'll everybody who was sick, who didn't eat their vegetables, who made out with whom and who ate 3 puddings although he's supposed to be on a diet.
He'll share it with the janitor, the cleaning ladies, his wife and their friends.
The costs, 20.000 is about the rent-a-cop's pay, so after the second year, there's a net benefit for the school they can use for more schooly stuff.
But now I make room for the people condemning the new system.
We had by cyborg666 · 2014-09-14 03:46 · Score: 2, Interesting

We had biometrics in our school 15 years ago, in Sweden.
1. Re:We had by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 04:05 · Score: 1
  
  So did we, in UK. This isn't news.
2. Re:We had by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 04:45 · Score: 0
  
  It is to Americans who have the mindset of the hippies of the 70s who still want to put it to the man.
3. Re:We had by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 04:49 · Score: 1
  
  That's because your country is a frozen socialist hellhole... We Americans can just wave our dicks and take what we want.
  Peace!
4. Re:We had by Opportunist · 2014-09-14 05:14 · Score: 1
  
  This is nowhere really news except where it takes a billion years to get anything done in the school system.
  
  --
  We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
5. Re:We had by davester666 · 2014-09-14 05:57 · Score: 5, Funny
  
  it takes longer because they have to route the data from the fingerprint scanner through the local FBI office to check for people on the no-cafeteria list.
  
  --
  Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
6. Re:We had by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 06:39 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  That's pretty good, but I would have gone with the "no eat list."
  We've got a no-fly list.
  We are developing a no-work list.
  A no-eat list seems the next logical step.
7. Re:We had by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 09:01 · Score: 0
  
  Forget Bitcoin. Dick waving is the currency of the future! Good on America for showing us the way!
8. Re:We had by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 09:37 · Score: 0
  
  Look up the word socialism when you're not busy trying to flex your muscles and show off how ignorant you are.
9. Re:We had by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 19:27 · Score: 0
  
  I think you mean GCHQ office.
10. Re:We had by stoatwblr · 2014-09-15 04:59 · Score: 1
  
  IIRC the UK has never used fingerprint scanners in school cafeterias (unhygenic, spoofable and unreliable). Most contactless biometric hand scanners work on infrared images of subdermal vein patterns - which are at least as unique as fingerprints _and_ come with built in pulse detection.
just prepay for food by alen · 2014-09-14 03:47 · Score: 4, Interesting

in my kid's school in the USA the only way to pay for school lunch is to send a check once a month. no check, no lunch, no lost money, no tracking
1. Re:just prepay for food by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 03:53 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  The problem is, all kids REQUIRE a lunch regardless of the parent's ability financially or mentally to prepay for them. It's a function of education to keep kids alive, not to mention focused.
2. Re: just prepay for food by alen · 2014-09-14 04:09 · Score: 1
  
  There are discounts for lower incomes, and even then its only $35 a month. Parents who dont pay like me send kid to school with lunch from home
3. Re:just prepay for food by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 04:19 · Score: 0
  
  Yeah, I remember this in Elementary school.
  I had to bring in a check every other week or so. They'd mark the payment in the book then add it to the system later. Of course they ended up marking a payment under the wrong name and refused to acknowledge the mistake once my account started going in the red. Why would they believe a 10-year old when there's no possible way they could have marked the wrong box?
4. Re:just prepay for food by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 04:30 · Score: 0
  
  > in my kid's school in the USA the only way to pay for school lunch is to send a check once a month
  But that is not a sweetheart deal for the fingerprint scanner company that happens to be owned by the son-in-law of the school district's manager. So clearly it is inferior.
5. Re: just prepay for food by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 04:51 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  UNLESS THEY DO NOT. The kid still needs to be fed for school to be functional.
6. Re:just prepay for food by Bob9113 · 2014-09-14 04:59 · Score: 0
  
  in my kid's school in the USA the only way to pay for school lunch is to send a check once a month... no tracking
  Interesting difference, there. There must be tracking in your kid's school's system, otherwise they wouldn't know who paid for lunch, but the tracking data probably doesn't get appropriated by an outside company. Presumably, this biometric company is not just making a buck on the scanners, software, and cloud-based management contract -- presumably they also have a plan for monetizing the data they are collecting about the kids.
  
  --
  Stop-Prism.org: Opt Out of Surveillance
7. Re: just prepay for food by number17 · 2014-09-14 05:00 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Kids also need clothes to wear, regular bathing, a bed to sleep, and other meals of the day. If you are unable to provide those things the government can and will. You just have to sign over your rights as the parent.
8. Re:just prepay for food by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 05:08 · Score: 1
  
  Exactly, education AND food should be free for children, no lost money, no expensive fingerprint system, no people needed to make them pay, just healthy food given to children, simpler, less expensive as a whole.
  I also support free subway system, a big part is already usually paid by the city/province/country anyway, and the whole system (expensive machines that need lots of maintenance, and lots of people) to sell tickets, check tickets, hunt down people that don't pay, and even the complete/partial reimbursement system for employees, students, people looking for work, elderly ... is just money/time lost for the community and making life more complicated for everybody.
9. Re:just prepay for food by Opportunist · 2014-09-14 05:16 · Score: 4, Funny
  
  All kids require... what kind of socialist nanny state bull is that?
  
  --
  We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
10. Re:just prepay for food by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 05:27 · Score: 0
  
  Really? Free subway system? Who builds it, operates it, and maintains it? How are they paid for those activities?
11. Re:just prepay for food by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 06:06 · Score: 1
  
  I thought most of my income was supposed to go to this stuff.. I know a large part of the budget for the local system purportedly comes form the incomes of my neighbours... Really, if they are going to steal my money, they might as well go all the way and pay for a decent transportation system that I don't have to penny pinch for.
12. Re:just prepay for food by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 06:30 · Score: 0
  
  How are they going to get copies of your kids fingerprints into the crime database that way?
13. Re:just prepay for food by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 06:31 · Score: 0
  
  > All kids require a lunch... what kind of socialist nanny state bull is that?
  Woah. Poe's Law!
  I'd really like to give you the benefit of the doubt for being clever, but I have this sinking suspicion you're just a mindless "free-thinking" ideologue.
14. Re:just prepay for food by mysidia · 2014-09-14 07:05 · Score: 2
  
  It's a function of education to keep kids alive, not to mention focused.
  No... it's not at all. The function of education is to educate kids.
  Their parents have a responsibility to see that their kids are fed and their health requirements are met.
  The school should simply eliminate all the POS crap and require parents to pay.
  Failure to pay will the a disciplinary infraction against the parent; the student may be suspended, and child protective services may be contacted.
  There is no right to care for a child, if you are not capable of doing so.
15. Re:just prepay for food by amxcoder · 2014-09-14 17:50 · Score: 0
  
  And not personally liking the subway/public transit, I would like to see MY CAR and gas paid for by tax payers as well, but that is considered greedy and mooching off other people, and obviously isn't fair is it? In my view, being FORCED to pay for other people's stuff isn't fair either. If I want to donate money to the needy/poor, I should be able to choose how much to donate, and to whom (or what organization) I want, and not have it taken from me by threat of physical force like it currently is.
  
  If parents can't afford to give the very basics (food/shelter) to their kids, then they aren't fit parents or have their priorities all messed up. Turning the schools into a substitute parent is a bad idea once you get past the borderline idea of "free lunches". It has already been expanded in some places to more than just lunch, where schools are now offering free Breakfast, lunches and dinners. Should schools also provide free healthcare? How about free clothing? How about shelter? Are schools learning institutions, or are they soup kitchens/homeless shelters? I would say the former, but many seem to want them to become the latter.
16. Re:just prepay for food by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 23:24 · Score: 0
  
  As a kid in school, I never had lunch. I went home after school and ate then. (Or sometimes not)
  Yes, it was socially awkward, but I lived and non the worse. So no, it is not 'required'
17. Re:just prepay for food by dave420 · 2014-09-15 04:00 · Score: 1
  
  You are benefiting from government spending on things like public transport, police, fire, army, schools, etc. even if you never see a train, cop, fireman, soldier or school in your life. Society works because it is full of people. The better these people are at their jobs, the more productive they are and the better society works. If you don't directly benefit from one of these "socialist" schemes, you benefit from others who do. Look further than your own face and you might see that it makes a lot of sense for the government to fund such things, as it means you spend less and get better service. Laugh if you want, but the rest of the world has figured this out, and if you correlate the amount of spending with the quality of life in these places, you might just wake up.
  Your car and gas are not paid for because it doesn't help everyone. In sane areas/countries there is a good public transport system to take you where you want to go, so a car with gas is, for most, a luxury.
  You sound like a complete selfish tit. You'll probably die alone, complaining about the government, having forgotten to live your life because of your selfish anger, lacklustre logic, and sense of entitlement.
18. Re:just prepay for food by amxcoder · 2014-09-15 04:44 · Score: 1
  
  I was trying to show the selfish attitute reflected by those people who think because they use "X" that everyone else should pay for "X". I have no desire to actually have other people pay for my car, etc. Notice I said donate to the needy, I wasn't implying anything about my tax money going to the school for education, I was implying that my tax money that is supposed to be going to education, is also being used to feed the kids for free. That is a charity, and I would like to be able to exercise free will of the money I have to donate to charities of my choice, not some school superintendent that chooses a friends company to provide those meals.
  
  On the premise, having some government run programs, like cops, firemen, soldiers, and even school is not bad, and I never said that anywhere in my post. My last comment still stands though, school is for "Learning" not providing life sustaining necessities. The necessities in life should be provided for by PARENTS not schools. This is not selfish in the least, it is a basic requirement of actually being a parent, that you provide for your own kids. Those who want to posit that we should all be paying for the students meals (and more) probably have kids and want their kids meals paid for. We have numerous other programs, that if you are poor, you can enroll in that will provide food. We don't need to turn schools into soup kitchens, because as I stated before, "where will it stop?".
  
  BTW, you attacked my comment, however nowhere did you actually try to give an honest answer to any of my questions about where is the cut-off for what schools should provide, and why that is the cut-off point, and not some other arbitrary item?
Great idea! by DaMattster · 2014-09-14 03:48 · Score: 1, Interesting

I'd like to see this system implemented in The States. It basically circumvents the school yard bully from stealing lunch money from would-be victims.
1. Re:Great idea! by Greyfox · 2014-09-14 03:52 · Score: 5, Funny
  
  Now bullies are going to beat them up to take their fingerprints. That might be less fun.
  
  --
  I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
2. Re:Great idea! by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 04:08 · Score: 0
  
  Did they solve the play-doh attack?
  What about the cut-off-the-finger attack?
  Personally, I'd rather go hungry than lose a finger.
  Biometrics is a really bad idea for oh-so-many-reasons.
3. Re:Great idea! by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 04:11 · Score: 0
  
  I had it in high school 10 years ago, in SW Missouri.
4. Re:Great idea! by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 04:12 · Score: 1
  
  I'm thinking "the bullies" are going to buy, sell and collect information on the children's individual dietary choices for further advertising campaigns.
5. Re:Great idea! by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 04:20 · Score: 0
  
  They've got it at the elementary school my son goes to and it works great. Only no fingerprint bullshit it's just a card.
6. Re:Great idea! by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 04:31 · Score: 0
  
  Not really. What happens is the bully gets the other kid to buy the items they want for them. In my kid's case a neighbor would send money with her kid to buy lunch. The neighbor kid (10 years old) figured out that he could pocket the cash, then pressure other kids (like mine) to buy food for him on my dime. He ran up about $100 on my kid's tab before I found out and his mom made him pay me back.
7. Re:Great idea! by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 04:34 · Score: 0
  
  Still doesn't stop the bullies from stealing or DoS'ing (knocking to the ground) the target's lunch...
  How can you eat your pudding if you don't eat your meat?
8. Re:Great idea! by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 04:36 · Score: 0
  
  > I'd like to see this system implemented in The States. It basically circumvents the school yard bully from stealing lunch money from would-be victims.
  When I was a kid, in the 1970s, in a small town in Hawaii the cafeteria had "lunch cards." They were a piece of heavy-duty paper that had 30 horizontal lines on them. The "cashier" just stuck the lunch card into a machine which trimmed off one line or gave an error if there were no lines left. I'm sure that with modern 2D barcodes we could do the same thing today and still stop any problems with bullies stealing lunch money and lunch card forgery.
9. Re:Great idea! by MiKM · 2014-09-14 04:42 · Score: 1
  
  Why not just slap a barcode or magstripe on student IDs and use that? The IDs can obviously, but it's a lot easier to prove that the ID Jimmy is trying to use doesn't belong to him.
10. Re:Great idea! by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 04:44 · Score: 0
  
  Hey, we had this same system a decade ago! Instead of having a biometric scan though, it was your school ID you entered in. A 5-digit number, and the same lady ran the "register" everyday and knew the students, so any attempts to falsify your information and charge someone else's account would likely be caught.
  There was an actual register there, too. You could either pay for the meal or hand over say $20 and it'd be deposited to your account for use with the number system.
11. Re: Great idea! by Great+Big+Bird · 2014-09-14 04:58 · Score: 1
  
  Let's put a tattoo on their wrist. That could work...
12. Re:Great idea! by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 04:59 · Score: 0
  
  In the US, is every child the schoolyard bully? (Possibly excluding the one mexican kid who does everything the fat bullies are too lazy to)
  That's a best-guess attempt at rationalising how children grow into the adults that run your country.
13. Re:Great idea! by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 05:01 · Score: 0
  
  Or the nerds will lift the bullies' fingerprints and steal their lunches.
14. Re:Great idea! by Charliemopps · 2014-09-14 05:14 · Score: 2
  
  I'd like to see this system implemented in The States. It basically circumvents the school yard bully from stealing lunch money from would-be victims.
  When I was bullied, my lunch money was never the target. It was always my pride they were after.
  Teach your kid to have pride that's not dependent on the views of others and suddenly bullies stop being a problem.
15. Re:Great idea! by MiKM · 2014-09-14 05:18 · Score: 1
  
  Oops, what I meant to say was "The IDs can obviously be stolen"
16. Re:Great idea! by Lisias · 2014-09-14 05:26 · Score: 2
  
  I'd like to see this system implemented in The States. It basically circumvents the school yard bully from stealing lunch money from would-be victims.
  The only thing that can (and will) circumvent the school yard bullies from bullying is this.
  Self-defence is, always, the best defense.
  Oh, the victim overreacted? Educate him/her , punishing him/her for force abuse if it's the case. BUT NEVER punish the self-defense.
  
  --
  Lisias@Earth.SolarSystem.OrionArm.MilkyWay.Local.Virgo.Universe.org
17. Re:Great idea! by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 06:00 · Score: 0
  
  Actually, yes, they have - whether or not it's implemented in the particular systems the article is talking about, "liveness detection" methods have been developed that ensure the the fingerprint being read is being read from a living source.
  Combine that with somebody monitoring the students exiting the lunch line to make sure they're not whipping out a severed finger, and you've got plenty of assurance that people aren't spoofing cafeteria lunches with play doh and severed fingers.
18. Re:Great idea! by Cabriel · 2014-09-14 06:22 · Score: 1
  
  When I was bullied, neither my money nor my pride were the target. They just wanted to look strong in front of their friends, and I did not have the strength of muscle to fight back.
19. Re:Great idea! by elfprince13 · 2014-09-14 07:08 · Score: 1
  
  It already has been in places. My high school did this 7 or 8 years ago.
20. Re:Great idea! by HornWumpus · 2014-09-14 09:30 · Score: 1
  
  Inexpensive liveness detectors can be defeated with a thin layer of sillyputty imprinted with the target print over your own finger.
  Which is good. Teach kids to hack the system young. We had a legally blind checkout person in the cafeteria. So we didn't steal, it wasn't sporting. We continued eating fast in line and not paying.
  
  --
  John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
21. Re:Great idea! by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-15 02:04 · Score: 0
  
  The bully can still just make the kid purchase the lunch and then take it from him. Although i guess having 10 free lunches a day is less valuable then having $50
22. Re:Great idea! by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-15 04:17 · Score: 0
  
  No it's not (although good on that kid!)
  The only thing self defense will produce is an arms race... Next day kid A brings a club to get closely acquainted with the face of kid B, kid B brings a club with nails, then kid A brings a rusty metal rod etc... until something real bad happens...
  It's not about self defense. It's about teaching (educating) people that this kind of stuff is wrong.
  You must be American thinking everything can be solved by violence (as long as you have the upper hand of course)... it's really not and I hope you don't procreate!
23. Re:Great idea! by Charliemopps · 2014-09-15 08:32 · Score: 1
  
  When I was bullied, neither my money nor my pride were the target. They just wanted to look strong in front of their friends, and I did not have the strength of muscle to fight back.
  That's when you just start screaming "Assault! Assault!" as loud as possible.
  Again, your problem was pride. You didn't want to seam weak so you just took it and pretended like they weren't hurting you.
  let go of the pride, embrace revenge, scream for an adult and then get them expelled.
24. Re:Great idea! by Lisias · 2014-09-24 17:02 · Score: 1
  
  No it's not (although good on that kid!)
  Yes, it is. :-)
  
  The only thing self defense will produce is an arms race... Next day kid A brings a club to get closely acquainted with the face of kid B, kid B brings a club with nails, then kid A brings a rusty metal rod etc... until something real bad happens...
  The escalade of violence it's something that can happen, yes. Mainly, in no law lands, where there's no authority to settle things down.
  What you fails to recognize is that bullying is about opportunity and unaccountability. Bullies do what they do because they can do it unchecked. The system FAILED to prevent the escalade of violence done by bullies.
  
  It's not about self defense. It's about teaching (educating) people that this kind of stuff is wrong.
  Some people never learns. You have to force them to behave. Granted, they have rights by them own, so we can't just kill them, lock them, or anything nasty and gross like that.
  
  You must be American thinking everything can be solved by violence (as long as you have the upper hand of course)... it's really not and I hope you don't procreate!
  No. I'm a brazilian already fed up of people that thinks like you playing havoc with our public safety policies. BE ADVISED, THIS VIDEO SHOWS REALLY STRONG CONTENTS (blood and murderer)- WATCH IT UNDER DISCRETION.
  And, unfortunately for us, all these killers and bullies already procreated.
  (just like me - live with that)
  
  --
  Lisias@Earth.SolarSystem.OrionArm.MilkyWay.Local.Virgo.Universe.org
Sigh by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 03:49 · Score: 2, Insightful

I think this latest story of "progress" falls into the "You have zero privacy now, get over it" category.
1. Re:Sigh by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 05:18 · Score: 0
  
  On the one hand children aren't afforded the same rights as adult. Privacy isn't a concern here. On the other hand, raising children in an environment that shows no concern for their privacy may produce a generation that doesn't care about said issues.
  We need to protect the privacy of children, not because they have a right to privacy, but because we want to instill value in it.
2. Re:Sigh by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 05:35 · Score: 0
  
  I don't understand how this "invades" their privacy.
  Their fingerprints are probably already on file because they've been part of a "safe kids" fingerprint program - sponsored by the FBI, the Klaas foundation, hell, even McGruff the Crime Dog gets in on the action.
  The fact that they have dietary allergies should already be on record with the school nurse.
  Their photo, and a school ID card, aren't "invading their privacy" - but that ID *is* something they can forget at home, lose, misplace, have stolen, etc. Bit harder to do that with fingerprints.
  So by tying all of these *existing* systems together you get:
  1) A way to ensure children don't get refused food because they lost their ID card;
  2) A way to ensure children aren't buying food with peanuts in it when they have a deadly peanut allergy on record;
  I fail to see the change to their privacy here, and I see a couple ways it's a dramatic improvement.
3. Re:Sigh by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 06:04 · Score: 1
  
  Off the top of my head?
  1. The government doesn't need to know what you eat.
  2. We don't collect fingerprints of regular citizens. Requiring a photo ID to buy food is morally wrong.
  3. It's the job parents to feed their kids, and not the school.
  4. If a kid loses their money they don't deserve to eat. If you mention a bully stealing money, then our conversation changes to how we can stop bulling, not how we can circumvent them.
4. Re:Sigh by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 06:39 · Score: 0
  
  1. The government doesn't need to know what you eat.
  They do if they've been charged with keeping you safe and healthy during the school day. If you're not eating healthy, they have an obligation to correct that, unless you want to do away with schools as day care centers. They also have an obligation to be sure they're not poisoning you by giving you food you're allergic to.
  
  2. We don't collect fingerprints of regular citizens. Requiring a photo ID to buy food is morally wrong.
  The food needs to be paid for - which means some method that is child-specific must be used. Explain for me the functional difference between requiring a Photo ID and a fingerprint? A PhotoID contains numerous biometric identifiers too - how you look, your hair color, the shape of your face, nose, ears, eyes... but OH NOES, they might have a photograph of the little swirly patterns on my fingers! Computers are already getting to the point where facial recognition software is AWFUL fucking good.
  
  3. It's the job parents to feed their kids, and not the school.
  And the parents are delegating that responsibility to the schools. So guess what - the school needs a way of billing the food consumed to somebody.
  
  4. If a kid loses their money they don't deserve to eat.
  You just went full retard. Kids lose shit. They're kids. It has nothing to do with "bullying" and everything to do with "theft." Let me know when you've licked the problem that "people sometimes take shit that doesn't belong to them" - every police force on the planet would be remarkably interested in evaluating and replicating your results.
5. Re:Sigh by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 07:28 · Score: 0
  
  1. The school has no right to define eating correctly. Do away with that.
  2. Students should not need a fingerprint or photo ID to buy anything. Eating should not be documented.
  3. We need to stand up against this. As citizens we need to hold these parents accountable.
  4. Yes. Nothing teaching children to be responsible like not holding them accountable for their action. Kid loses money, they don't have the option to buy something. Kids will be kids is not a viable argument. After all, kids will be adults eventually.
6. Re:Sigh by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 09:09 · Score: 0
  
  Granted, but these kids would probably pay in Facebook Likes and Instagram shots of their lunches, so I don't think they're too concerned.
7. Re:Sigh by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 13:24 · Score: 0
  
  1. The school has no right to define eating correctly. Do away with that.
  You don't think an educational institute should educate students on proper nutrition, and follow those "good nutrition" rules in what they serve? Again - you're going full retard.
  
  2. Students should not need a fingerprint or photo ID to buy anything. Eating should not be documented.
  Why not? Schools have an affirmative obligation to look after the children in their care, while they're in the care of the school. Shouldn't that include making sure that little Johnny has something nutritious to eat? If you're a parent, and want to feed your child nothing but shit - homeschool them, and feed them 3 squares of Fritos on your own dime, then.
  
  3. We need to stand up against this. As citizens we need to hold these parents accountable.
  Accountable for... what, exactly? If they're not your children, then what gives you the right to, on the one hand, freak out about oppression and "submitting to authority", and on the other hand, start declaring that "some" parents need to be told how to do their job the "right" way? Your fascism is showing - it's not pretty.
  
  4. Yes. Nothing teaching children to be responsible like not holding them accountable for their action. Kid loses money, they don't have the option to buy something. Kids will be kids is not a viable argument.
  Yes, actually, it is. You teach kids responsibility in ways that don't require them to be malnourished. It's obvious you don't have children, and it's obvious you know nothing about the effects poor nutrition and missed meals have on a child's attention, ability to learn, and physiologically speaking, their brain and body. Of all the things that schools do, making sure that a kid gets a nutritious meal regularly is just about the most fucking important thing they can do for the kid, other than not murdering them in cold blood.
  
  After all, kids will be adults eventually.
  Not if they starve to death before they get to grow up, you thick cunt.
Or, you know by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 03:53 · Score: 0

Or, you know, give them DINNER CARDS. So hard.
Who the hell loses money?
I've literally never known a single person that I was at school with to have ever lost any money the entire time they were there.
More to the point, what SCHOOL still even uses money? Aren't these public schools? Weren't meals already paid for?
There wouldn't be any stigma with school means if the damn money wasn't involved in the first place.
A dinner card isn't going to let you abuse the system by using multiple in the case of someone possibly stealing another persons card.
Hell, a simple paper dinner ticket can work as well. Someone that has multiple tickets is obviously doing something wrong.
Have the alerts and other such thing on the OPERATIONS end like it is right now.
Biometrics is totally not needed here at all. It isn't a bloody bank or secure facility.
What a waste of money.
1. Re: Or, you know by tysonedwards · 2014-09-14 04:19 · Score: 2
  
  Loses is a euphamism in this case. Read: child is bullied and money is stolen. To avoid further ridicule and persecution from adults and parents, child may use excuse of being "lost", or school may use excuse of being "lost" to downplay the actual incidents of bullying.
  
  --
  Thirty four characters live here.
2. Re:Or, you know by MaryAnnEvans · 2014-09-14 04:59 · Score: 0
  
  Or, you know, give them DINNER CARDS. So hard.
  Dinner cards are not necessaily cheaper. Fingerprint scanners are not expensive components. And unlike cards, fingerprints are not lost or stolen.
  
  I've literally never known a single person that I was at school with to have ever lost any money the entire time they were there.
  Your lack of experience or memory of a category of event doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It does. Ask a teacher.
  
  More to the point, what SCHOOL still even uses money? Aren't these public schools? Weren't meals already paid for?
  It's a UK school. There's no reason to assume that things work the same way as where you live. Primary and secondary education is available free for all in the UK. But school meals have always been paid. They are free for kids with parents that are on benefits (welfare), and this is another advantage of a cashless system such as this, that it protects those kids from the stigma which comes from other kids knowing they are on free school meals.
  
  A dinner card isn't going to let you abuse the system by using multiple in the case of someone possibly stealing another persons card.
  Sure it could. In most schools there's nothing to stop the kid going out and then joining the queue to go through a second time. So long as they are quiet and well behaved, the staff are unlikely to notice. But in any case a theft would more likely occur as a knock on effect of a kid losing their own card.
  
  Hell, a simple paper dinner ticket can work as well. Someone that has multiple tickets is obviously doing something wrong.
  One ticket per day. That's what we had wen I was at school. However with 30 kids, you lose 10-15 minutes per day of morning registration time handing out the tickets. And still have the problem that kids may lose them before lunch time.
3. Re:Or, you know by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 07:27 · Score: 0
  
  fingerprints are not lost or stolen.
  No, but if you go down on your skateboard you could end up with a cast on your hand that might make it impossible to use the reader. I've seen casts like that. Even a simple paper-cut with a band aid could cause problems.
  You can use the other hand of course; but that requires visiting the office just as if you had lost a card, or maintaining all 10 prints in the DB "just in case".
Slippery slope by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 03:53 · Score: 1

This is the slippery slope to robustly archiving every person's fingerprint, available for criminal investigations, surveillance, datamining and targeted advertising.
1. Re:Slippery slope by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 04:00 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  Already happens in the UK.
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_National_DNA_Database
  Fucking sucks. I'm on it, despite committing no crime or ever having been charged with one!
2. Re:Slippery slope by jklovanc · 2014-09-14 06:22 · Score: 1
  
  First, how is this related to a fingerprint scanner that is not compatible with other fingerprint scanners.
  Second, I guess you better be careful if you commit a crime.
3. Re: Slippery slope by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 06:41 · Score: 0
  
  And what is the problem with that?
4. Re:Slippery slope by AmiMoJo · 2014-09-14 18:15 · Score: 2
  
  Have you applied to be removed? It's a long and slow process but if you keep nagging they will eventually remove your details.
  
  --
  const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
  SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
This is a horrible idea by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 03:56 · Score: 0

Fingerprint scanners are ridiculously easy to trick. Someone is going to take an unpopular kid's fingerprint and spread copies of it around the school, I guarantee it.
Another benefit by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 03:56 · Score: 0

Bullies can't steal your lunch money anymore.
1. Re:Another benefit by Joe_Dragon · 2014-09-14 04:00 · Score: 1
  
  really??? They can bully people to use there finger to pay for there food?
  You said you where paying for my lunch today right?
2. Re:Another benefit by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 04:01 · Score: 0
  
  Instead they will steal your lunch and offer to sell it to you.
3. Re:Another benefit by MaryAnnEvans · 2014-09-14 05:01 · Score: 0
  
  There are supervising staff. One kid paying for another is probably not allowed.
4. Re:Another benefit by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-15 00:36 · Score: 0
  
  Do you know the difference between there and their?
Food stamps and Medicaid by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 04:00 · Score: 0

This would be a good system for grocery stores here in the US. It could be used with Medicaid too.
What is the story? by C3lt · 2014-09-14 04:00 · Score: 1

I'm not really sure what the story is here. As it says in the linked article, this technology has been in use for at least 10 years in a large number of schools. Also, the only "privacy concerns" raised appear in the other article are about an entirely different system at a school in the US.
Not a big change by wbackner · 2014-09-14 04:09 · Score: 2

This is just a variation of what is used in many schools in the USA. Kids have an account that their parents put money in. Then, in the cafeteria, kids type in their account number to pay for lunch. This new system eliminates kids having to learn and remember their account number.
1. Re:Not a big change by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 23:59 · Score: 0
  
  Heaven forbid we should have to teach kids something they'll use everyday ;-)
PIN? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 04:09 · Score: 0

Here in the Eau Claire County(Wisconsin) school district, school lunches are paid with a similar system. But instead of biometric finger scans, its a four digit pin. Easy for kids to remember but doesn't stop others from stealing from your account.
In use in UK schools for some time by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 04:11 · Score: 0

Some Hillingdon schools in Greater London have been using this as the sole payment method for student purchases since 2012.
It is certainly preferable to "I forgot/lost my lunch money", "couldn't buy a spare pen", "someone stole my money", etc.
Source: parent of kids at same: For example, see http://www.vyners.hillingdon.sch.uk/page/?pid=601
[anonymous because above...]
https://www.mylunchmoney.com by LordNimon · 2014-09-14 04:12 · Score: 1

There already is a server that works, without using biometrics: https://www.mylunchmoney.com./ My kids' schools use it, and we've never had any problems.

--
And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
To mold a new reality... closer to the heart
1. Re:https://www.mylunchmoney.com by number17 · 2014-09-14 05:02 · Score: 1
  
  Well, its a server, and its up, but:
  
  www.mylunchmoney.com. uses an invalid security certificate.
  
  The certificate is only valid for the following names:
  *.mylunchmoney.com, mylunchmoney.com
2. Re:https://www.mylunchmoney.com by denbesten · 2014-09-14 06:08 · Score: 1
  
  www.mylunchmoney.com. uses an invalid security certificate.
  
  https://www.mylunchmoney.com is fine. The problem is the period after the "com", likely intended to end the sentence,
3. Re:https://www.mylunchmoney.com by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 06:10 · Score: 0
  
  Remove the period from the end of the URL that was provided.
4. Re:https://www.mylunchmoney.com by jklovanc · 2014-09-14 06:32 · Score: 1
  
  My kids' schools use it, and we've never had any problems.
  ... that you know of. I bet the lunch people have to deal quite often with student who have forgotten or miss-remembered their user id and/or password.
5. Re:https://www.mylunchmoney.com by LordNimon · 2014-09-14 09:54 · Score: 1
  
  I would rather have that, than to have my son fingerprinted.
  
  --
  And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
  To mold a new reality... closer to the heart
6. Re:https://www.mylunchmoney.com by jklovanc · 2014-09-14 13:15 · Score: 1
  
  Finger scanners reduce the pattern to a number. There are several algorithms to do that encoding. Scans from different algorithms can not be matched. Finger print scanners are very different than taking fingerprints.
7. Re:https://www.mylunchmoney.com by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 22:36 · Score: 0
  
  they can still fuck off!!!
Disney has been using this for years by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 04:12 · Score: 3, Insightful

Go to Disney World and buy any multi-day pass, and your fingerprints are digitally scanned. I'm sure they would be happy to turn over the data to law enforcement if requested. The prints taken from when you were 5yrs old could be used in an investigation decades later.
1. Re:Disney has been using this for years by ebvwfbw · 2014-09-15 14:22 · Score: 1
  
  Yet someone else on slashdot without a clue spreading a myth. https://disneyworld.disney.go....
University of Georgia has this by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 04:13 · Score: 0

it only worked half the time. The fallback was just to swipe our student id card.
No one really cared. The cafeteria was buffet style too, so it's not like it was usable for a study.
If anything, it was more of a proof-of-concept. It was neat, but ultimately not that accurate to be deployed elsewhere on campus.
I hate that they have accounts in the first place by cascadingstylesheet · 2014-09-14 04:20 · Score: 1

My kids bring their lunch. No, we don't want an account, but you gave them each one anyway. No, that one weird charge which appeared isn't theirs; perhaps someone mis-typed the uber-secure 5-digit code. No, we don't want to apply for reduced lunches, no more than the last 15 times you asked us.
The important property of biometric features by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 04:26 · Score: 1

The important property of biometric features isn't that they can't be stolen. They can. It's that they can't be changed. If someone gets your fingerprint, you can not set a new fingerprint.
New? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 04:29 · Score: 0

I work for a company that does school cafeteria POS. We've done biometrics for about 10 years as an option, though it's not been extremely popular in the US. A few school districts use it though. The prepayments for meals is old news, companies have been doing it for at least 20 years.
i dont know by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 04:29 · Score: 0

Runescape private server toplist
Nope by koan · 2014-09-14 04:34 · Score: 1

Gather all biometrics and do it from children so they grow up used to it, and sell it to the parents as "convinience and safety" .
The oppression continues.

--
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
Not about ease, about authority by ganjadude · 2014-09-14 04:40 · Score: 0

its not about ease, its about getting kids used to submitting to authority. Oh you want that food? sorry you cant have it unless you jump through our hoops.

--
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
1. Re:Not about ease, about authority by TWX · 2014-09-14 04:48 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  No, it's about an overly complicated solution to a problem that can be solved with much simpler means.
  
  If the students are required to carry their school-issued ID, that school-issued ID can serve as their payment card, and if there's a concern with fraud in the sense of a different student using the card, then add a PIN pad to the card reader. Mind you, at least in the elementary schools the lunch ladies know who's on free and reduced lunch, who has special diets, etc, so it would be harder for fraud by kids.
  
  Or, cross-link the ID card system's picture database to the POS in the cafeteria, so that when the card is swiped, the picture comes up on-screen, and the lunch lady can see if the student paying is the student on the ID.
  
  And as for elementary schools, at least around here the kids come as a class, and many times the lunch lady simply points to the kid's face on the touchscreen as the whole class is on-screen at one time, so the kid doesn't even need ID.
  
  This fingerprint system seems like an overly complicated, overly invasive means to cover a couple bucks or equivalent-pounds worth of food every day.
  
  --
  Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
2. Re:Not about ease, about authority by Charliemopps · 2014-09-14 05:12 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  No, its about teachers having no friggen clue what their job is. What better life lesson is there than "Lose your money, you don't eat."?
3. Re:Not about ease, about authority by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 05:26 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  I'm confused - you said:
  
  overly complicated solution to a problem that can be solved with much simpler means.
  And then proceeded to list even more complicated means of solving the problem.
  As it is, you can't 'forget' to bring your fingerprint with you, or lose it on the bus, or have it stolen. You can't "share" your fingerprints with your friends by handing them your id & telling them your PIN. And you don't rely on a harried, low-paid "lunch lady" to make a positive ID based on a grainy photo taken 6 months ago against the child who's grown 3 inches, gained 20 pounds, and changed their hair completely in last 3 months standing in front of them.
4. Re:Not about ease, about authority by TWX · 2014-09-14 05:35 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  Schools maintain a photographic record of their students already.
  
  A cafeteria would need a device of some kind in either system.
  
  Existing POS software for school cafeterias already can cross-reference the enrollment records and photos.
  
  Troubleshooting a system that's widely implemented beyond the cafeteria is also easier, as the people that maintain the ID database, the enrollment records database, and the POS system already exist. They'd either have to take-on new duties or would have to hire someone else.
  
  --
  Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
5. Re:Not about ease, about authority by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 05:48 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Screw that..
  Just tag'em at birth, never had any complaints from the cat and you can always just scan the QR code tattooed on their forhead when you forget their name/birthday/age again or whatever.
6. Re:Not about ease, about authority by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 05:49 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  Schools maintain a photographic record of their students already.
  Okay - and? Have you ever looked at a photo of a child at the beginning and end of a 9-month school year? They grow fast, and change *dramatically* over the course of 9 months. If you have to perform a match between "little Johnny" today and a grainy photo of "little Johnny" 9 months ago, that's not as easy as you make it sound - especially when you have about 3 seconds or so to make that determination. And using a swiped ID card still doesn't address the problem of "I lost my ID," or "I forgot my ID at home," or "somebdy stole my ID on the bus / at recess."
  Pretty hard to imagine "forgetting" your fingerprints... also hard to imagine no raised eyebrows if somebody walks up with a severed finger and tries to use that to pay.
  
  Existing POS software for school cafeterias already can cross-reference the enrollment records and photos.
  
  Great, and nothing's stopping that from happening now - in addition to a photo record, the administration will take a fingerprint, and tie that to the student's records. Then at the cafeteria terminal, the student will present their finger (rather than a possibly-lost-or-stolen ID card).
  
  Troubleshooting a system that's widely implemented beyond the cafeteria is also easier
  ... says the guy who's never integrated 3 different systems owned by 3 different departments of a bureaucratic local government before.
  
  They'd either have to take-on new duties or would have to hire someone else.
  Why? To attach a fingerprint scanner to the POS terminal, instead of a magnetic card reader? That's the ONLY difference in the system you're proposing - don't use fingerprints, use a card instead. The integration of these systems has to happen anyway, the token - be it a card or a fingerprint - has to be registered at the POS terminal. Except you can lose a card easily. Much harder to lose fingerprints - which means... the child is less likely to go hungry because they lost a card.
7. Re:Not about ease, about authority by murdocj · 2014-09-14 05:58 · Score: 0
  
  You mean a hoop like paying for it? That hoop? That's right, I forgot that Slashdot is the "I want that, I'm entitled to it, why shouldn't I steal it" crowd.
8. Re:Not about ease, about authority by murdocj · 2014-09-14 06:00 · Score: 0
  
  I don't have any mod points, so please, please, please mod the parent up.
9. Re:Not about ease, about authority by ninjabus · 2014-09-14 06:14 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  Exactly. I paid for a school lunch using a similar account linked to a PIN 20 years ago. When a kid forgot their pin, the cashier looked their name up in a binder to enter it correctly. There is no need for account security if the maximum withdrawal rate is 1 lunch per day.
10. Re:Not about ease, about authority by ganjadude · 2014-09-14 06:16 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  I was in HS from 99 to 03. We had ID cards, but we didnt need them for anything. I didnt think anything of it
  
  Jr year (2002-2002) the security guards started not allowing students in without showing ID. Now, the security guard knew damn near every kid in school (we had a full HS of under 500 people) but no student was allowed in without the id.
  
  Tell me, what good reason is there for that other than getting the students more used to submitting to authority? If the security guard didnt know the student fine, but if he did he STILL had to check every single ID.
  
  --
  have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
11. Re:Not about ease, about authority by Cabriel · 2014-09-14 06:19 · Score: 1
  
  So if a new child comes in and isn't in a class photo, then what? Bring the professional photographer back in at more expense to the school and inconvenience to the class? or worse: What if the cafeteria worker is having a bad day and decides to point at the wrong kid, draining money from the wrong account to punish the bad kid's parents?
  Fingerprint readers aren't any more invasive than School IDs but they do reduce liability and responsibility of the staff.
12. Re:Not about ease, about authority by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 06:33 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  This fingerprint system seems like an overly complicated, overly invasive means to cover a couple bucks or equivalent-pounds worth of food every day.
  It is.
  First, you don't use fingerprints. The dangers have been discussed on Slashdot enough I don't need to elaborate. You NEVER use biometrics for "casual" security, even more so if there is a third party involved.
  Second, the British government LOVES surveillance and I'm sure that their law enforcement community will get access to every thumbprint scanned. If it works here (no major public backlash), it will be implemented across the country for this very reason.
  Third, it is not necessary to use fingerprints. A student ID card and PIN should be sufficient. Fraud can easily be avoided by adding a cashier to look at the picture on the card. The cashier can double as a monitor to keep the students in line in the cafeteria.
  Fourth, this system will fail the same way it does in the US. Parents will forget to keep the students account topped off and their kids will be sent back to class on empty stomachs.
13. Re:Not about ease, about authority by Joe_Dragon · 2014-09-14 06:51 · Score: 0
  
  till one day the kid who keeps getting beet up and having there lunch money stolen takes a weapon to school and uses it on the bully
14. Re:Not about ease, about authority by mysidia · 2014-09-14 07:01 · Score: 1
  
  What if the cafeteria worker is having a bad day and decides to point at the wrong kid, draining money from the wrong account to punish the bad kid's parents?
  I like what my school did like 22 years ago. The "POS" is at the entrance to the Cafeteria.... Going into the Cafeteria, the students lined up in a specific order. She knows who is supposed to be next, you just tell lunch lady your last name and 4 digit code, and you get checked off as present.
  You get a standard lunch. The only extras you can buy are a second milk, or a dessert bar, which you can't buy until about 20 minutes after lunch started, and in order to get one of those, you pay cash.
15. Re:Not about ease, about authority by TWX · 2014-09-14 07:12 · Score: 2
  
  ... says the guy who's never integrated 3 different systems owned by 3 different departments of a bureaucratic local government before.
  Same department, actually, and yes, I have. When new students are enrolled, the student information system exports changes nightly, and those changes are imported into the ID system and the school is notified to take the picture and generate the ID. If the student qualifies for Title I free/reduced lunch, the export from the student system creates the record for the school lunch system, and the school lunch system knows how to query the ID system.
  
  The three people involved sit in offices about 40' away from each other an routinely meet to verify that it's working. And none of it requires anything more invasive than standard enrollment data and yearbook data.
  
  --
  Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
16. Re:Not about ease, about authority by mspohr · 2014-09-14 07:30 · Score: 2
  
  I knew it was the teachers fault.
  Teachers are running the cafeteria now... what's next?... the school buses (they are death traps, I hear).
  
  --
  I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
17. Re:Not about ease, about authority by postbigbang · 2014-09-14 07:33 · Score: 2
  
  But there's no fingerprint, not picture, nothing to feed to big data some place. There must be control. Having a child outside of the system means an aberration. We must have no aberration. All must be tracked. There might be as much as $2.20 in theft! Imagine-- not eating those nutritious lunches, packed with carbs and "brain food"!
  I've been fond of "up the system". Fingerprints. Yeesh.
  
  --
  ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
18. Re:Not about ease, about authority by mspohr · 2014-09-14 07:34 · Score: 2
  
  Old geezer here.
  My school lunch was a "standard meal" and cost 27 cents. We paid it to a sweet little old lady in cash. She knew us all so no chance for anonymity.
  
  --
  I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
19. Re:Not about ease, about authority by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 08:23 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  Yes, we can't have people learning to defend themselves from robbery, when the authorities have repeatedly ignored it (or threatened to punish both victim and aggressor in a 'zero tolerance' policy). I mean, if we have people who learn to take care of themselves, how are we supposed to be able to justify our sprawling police state?
20. Re:Not about ease, about authority by s0nicfreak · 2014-09-14 08:59 · Score: 2
  
  When I was in school, we just had a PIN, no id card needed, no id from the cashier needed. Yes, we could give that PIN to friends, but if you did that every day, your parents would notice the lunch account was draining twice as fast as it should and ask you what was up. I suppose we could have forgotten the PIN, but it's a few numbers that a kid uses way more often than their address, and we expect a kid to remember their address.
21. Re:Not about ease, about authority by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 08:59 · Score: 0
  
  But that's how the real world works. For example, the cops are getting stricter enforcing the alcohol ID laws. So the owners have to make stricter policies for the employees. At my favorite local beer store, a lot of the employees will recognize me. Guess what? They still have to ID me, and won't sell to me without a valid ID. Your ID expires or you forget it at home, too bad, no beer for you. It doesn't matter that you are 30, older then some of the employees, and have been a customer of that store since the first week it opened 5 years ago. They don't want to behave that way, but if the law enforcement officers say that's what they have to do, then that's what they have to do.
22. Re:Not about ease, about authority by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 09:03 · Score: 0
  
  Professional photographers are used to create nice pictures to sell to the parents. ID photo's are not taken by professionals.
23. Re:Not about ease, about authority by flargleblarg · 2014-09-14 09:06 · Score: 2
  
  Existing POS software for school cafeterias already can cross-reference the enrollment records and photos.
  What exactly makes you think it's piece-of-shit software?
24. Re:Not about ease, about authority by gbjbaanb · 2014-09-14 10:08 · Score: 1
  
  and possibly more importantly (to the parents) the kids can't go tot he local fast food joint and have burger and chip for lunch every day.
  For Â£20k though, the school could have just asked the parents to fund a lunch account of roughly the amount each kid costs to feed. Then they wouldn't have to give them lunch money and the kids would get lunch without having to bother with money.
25. Re:Not about ease, about authority by jsrjsr · 2014-09-14 10:21 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  The last time I bought alcohol, I happened to have my 17-year-old son with me. The cashier wanted to see his ID as well as mine. She wasn't going to sell to me because he was with me! Said it was the stores new policy. I asked to speak with the manager, who confirmed that it was the store policy. When I told him this policy was stupid, he backed down and sold me the alcohol. This "It's for the CHILDREN!" crap has got to stop!
26. Re:Not about ease, about authority by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 10:31 · Score: 1
  
  I encountered the same thing at a grocery store in Virginia. Me and three friends were all in the check-out line, but only one was purchasing anything. He showed the cashier his ID for the booze, then the cashier said she needed to see all of our IDs. As we each pulled out our IDs, I sarcastically stated, "because no one is smart enough to simply stay outside while the one legal adult goes in to buy the booze, right?"
  
  Now I'm wondering just what is the cut-off age. Because surely they won't tell a parent that they must leave their 2 month old kid home alone (or worse, in the car) if they want to buy alcohol. :rolls eyes:
27. Re:Not about ease, about authority by TWX · 2014-09-14 11:28 · Score: 1
  
  Some of the high schools around here are upwards of 4500 kids, with two lunch periods, six regular serving lines, a dozen a'la carte point of sale stations, the works. The IDs are necessary in these circumstances to keep everyone straight.
  
  Students aren't required to show their ID to enter the school, but if they're asked for their ID and cannot produce it then they have to go through another annoying process in addition to whatever else happened that caused someone to ask for their ID in the first place. Typlically their IDs are required for checking out books from the library, for engaging in official textbook check-out and return with the school bookstore, conducting drop/add of classes in the front office or counseling office, getting released from campus earlier than the normal end of the school day (for those that have fewer than the full-day's classes and have parental permission to leave), and other sorts of things. The ID acts as the central system for ensuring that all business functions of the school run smoothly, even if they never purchase a school lunch.
  
  --
  Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
28. Re:Not about ease, about authority by AlCapwn · 2014-09-14 11:32 · Score: 0
  
  It stands for Phinger Our Students.
29. Re:Not about ease, about authority by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 12:05 · Score: 0
  
  Oh, so it's easy! Great - so what you're saying is the only change required would be to have the biometric identifier associated with their enrollment data, and change out the mag-stripe reader for a fingerprint scanner at the POS, since the only change would be whether a student swipes an ID card, or presents a finger.
  So what you're saying is, this ISN'T a complex set of changes like you initially posited, and that it would actually be pretty easy to implement.
  So your objection is... what exactly? It's not an "overly complex" solution - it uses the current system that you're now claiming is easy. It allows students (and administration) better safeguards against a student with an allergy eating something he or she shouldn't. And it eliminates one more thing the student has to keep track of and ensure is on their person at all times if they don't want to go hungry.
  Sounds like a win-win to me - very little implementation effort required, lots of benefit.
30. Re:Not about ease, about authority by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 12:23 · Score: 1
  
  " The IDs are necessary in these circumstances to keep everyone straight. " ..slight modification..
  " The IDs are necessary in these circumstances to keep everyone in line. "
  Slavery you foolishly attempt to justify.
31. Re:Not about ease, about authority by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 12:50 · Score: 0
  
  homophone fail.
32. Re:Not about ease, about authority by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 14:03 · Score: 0
  
  till one day the kid who keeps getting beet up and having there lunch money stolen takes a weapon to school and uses it on the bully
  Pfft. That can only happen in the US or South Korea. Outside of these two places, they get to have meat and pudding for every meal, so they are never distressed. They even get to ask for more.
  On a more serious note... they could just do what my college does. Have a magnetic strip on the school's id card and allow deposits on there from meals to copier machines to printers to door access.
33. Re:Not about ease, about authority by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 14:03 · Score: 0
  
  Existing POS software for school cafeterias already can cross-reference the enrollment records and photos.
  What exactly makes you think it's piece-of-shit software?
  Its point-of-sale software, you not heard of that POS?
34. Re:Not about ease, about authority by Wycliffe · 2014-09-14 14:20 · Score: 1
  
  Ok, a figerprint scanner might be overly complicated but then why did you then proceed to invent
  an even more complicated system using picture ids, payment cards, pin numbers, touch screens, etc..
  Seems like your system is alot more complicated than a simple finger scan. Kids are notorious
  about losing things among other reasons.
  The main reason I would object to a fingerprint scan would be because I don't want the fingerprint to
  go elsewhere and the precendence of getting kids used to giving away their biometrics.
  Our school uses a pin number. In kindergarten they all learn a 6 digit student number then they all
  type it in to eat lunch. They don't have problem with stolen pin numbers because it pops up the
  name to the cashier who quickly learns the kids names. Might not work in a larger school but even
  in a larger school if it said the name out loud then their classmates would easily recognise if it
  said a different name.
35. Re:Not about ease, about authority by ShanghaiBill · 2014-09-14 14:22 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  No, its about teachers having no friggen clue what their job is.
  Running the cafeteria is not the teacher's job.
  
  What better life lesson is there than "Lose your money, you don't eat."?
  At least in California, it is illegal for the school to let a child go hungry. If they don't have money in their account, then it goes into deficit, and they send emails nagging the parent. I know this because I forgot to fund my kid's account a few times. Most parents pay for the lunches on line, so very few kids have cash for bullies to steal.
36. Re:Not about ease, about authority by ShanghaiBill · 2014-09-14 14:28 · Score: 1
  
  No, it's about an overly complicated solution to a problem that can be solved with much simpler means.
  All of your "simpler means" require manual human checking by the "lunch lady". The whole point of the new system is that there IS NO LUNCH LADY. It is designed to eliminate a human from the loop. If the lunch lady was earning $40k (much more if unionized), and her position is eliminated, then this $20k system will pay for itself in six months.
37. Re:Not about ease, about authority by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 15:12 · Score: 0
  
  I for one would like a universal free lunch program for students in k-12. But, that's an idea for another time. What worries me about fingerprint scanners is....
  germs. What are the odds that everyone will have clean fingers before sharing the same reader?
38. Re:Not about ease, about authority by EuclideanSilence · 2014-09-14 15:36 · Score: 1
  
  What's wrong with that?
39. Re:Not about ease, about authority by tragedy · 2014-09-14 20:39 · Score: 1
  
  As it is, you can't 'forget' to bring your fingerprint with you, or lose it on the bus, or have it stolen.
  You can have your fingerprint stolen, although that's unlikely for school lunches. You can also lose your fingerprint from simple mechanical wear or chemicals. You can also simply not have fingerprints to start with.
40. Re:Not about ease, about authority by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 22:02 · Score: 0
  
  Okay - and? Have you ever looked at a photo of a child at the beginning and end of a 9-month school year? They grow fast, and change *dramatically* over the course of 9 months. If you have to perform a match between "little Johnny" today and a grainy photo of "little Johnny" 9 months ago, that's not as easy as you make it sound - especially when you have about 3 seconds or so to make that determination.
  Okay - and? Have you ever looked at a FINGERPRINT of a child at the beginning and end of a 9-month school year? They grow fast, and change *dramatically* over the course of 9 months. If you have to perform a match between "little Johnny" today and a grainy FINGERPRINT IMAGE of "little Johnny" 9 months ago, that's not as easy as you make it sound - especially when you have about 3 seconds or so to make that determination.
  FTFY.
  I don't have any mod points, so please, please, please mod the parent down.
41. Re:Not about ease, about authority by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 22:37 · Score: 0
  
  Yeah but you can cut off somebodies finger.
  Go look up the case of the fingerprinted mercedes in Singapore.
42. Re:Not about ease, about authority by ganjadude · 2014-09-15 00:40 · Score: 1
  
  you are proving my point for me AC
  
  --
  have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
43. Re:Not about ease, about authority by ganjadude · 2014-09-15 00:45 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  cant talk for him but my objection is giving a school a DB of all kids finger prints. Im SO SURE that it would NEVER be accessed by law enforcement for fishing expeditions....
  
  --
  have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
44. Re:Not about ease, about authority by Drethon · 2014-09-15 01:05 · Score: 1
  
  Ah but a 2 month old kid may be breast feeding so the store has to make sure the mother isn't drinking the alcohol! Think of... never mind.
45. Re:Not about ease, about authority by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-15 01:54 · Score: 0
  
  It's nice to see the usual knee-jerk reactions here from people who don't understand the way in which these systems work, or the context in which they are used. I'm the network manager in a school that has implemented such a system.
  Firstly, there is no storing of fingerprints. What actually gets stored is a one way hash of the finger print. There is no way to get an image of the original print from the system.
  Secondly, anyone who says "just use a card and/or pin" has never worked in a school before. Students will lose or break their cards, or forget to being them in on a non-uniform day. Likewise, many students will forget PIN codes if they're allocated them. They're certainly good at forgetting their network passwords every half term. You can't forget to bring your thumb with you.
  If students or parents don't want to use the biometric system then they don't have to. They can be issued with a PIN code instead. In practice, most people tend to go with the biometric solution because it's easier. UK law requires explicit opt-in these days, so nobody gets enrolled in the biometric system without parental consent.
  Speed of service is critical. When you've got one hour to process around 500 people, you need to get them through the tills as fast as possible. You can't afford to have things bog down because students don't have their details with them.
  As for parents forgetting to top up accounts, that tends not to happen. All students have enough of an overdraft facility to allow them to eat if their account balance hits zero. It's one button press to authorize at the point of sale. Once they're in the red, it gets flagged up in the daily reports and parents get called. Parents can even make the payments online, so there's no excuse for this not being resolved quickly. If parents genuinely can't afford to pay for their children's meals, the local authority probably pays for the child to have free meals anyway, so that's not a problem either.
46. Re:Not about ease, about authority by dave420 · 2014-09-15 03:02 · Score: 1
  
  And when the kid can't remember his PIN and needs to eat lunch? Fingerprints provide the exact same protection as PINs, but it's harder to share or forget your fingerprints. The lunch ladies' information might not be up to date, so relying on them for that information seems rather silly, considering it's available digitally in its most up-to-date form.
47. Re:Not about ease, about authority by dave420 · 2014-09-15 03:45 · Score: 1
  
  The 20k figure is for the whole renovation of the dining area, not just the fingerprint scanner.
48. Re:Not about ease, about authority by dave420 · 2014-09-15 03:47 · Score: 1
  
  It's because if some weirdo got in the school the parents would sue the school district into submission. With the guard and the practice in place, they have a scapegoat. That's the thing.
  Your whole "submitting to authority" bent makes you sound like this is something frequently on your mind, which might be something you should get checked out. You sound paranoid to fuck.
49. Re:Not about ease, about authority by dave420 · 2014-09-15 03:52 · Score: 1
  
  The fingerprints don't exist - the devices store a one-way hash of the fingerprint. Kids should get used to biometrics as they are a part of the future. It sounds like your real problem is with the authorities misusing data as opposed to the data itself, which is a problem which should be fixed, but not by simply tying the hands of the authorities, which only serves to perpetuate abuses and never actually solves a thing.
50. Re:Not about ease, about authority by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-15 10:37 · Score: 0
  
  Thank you for properly using that term and injecting joy into my day. There are far too many asshats around today who insist homonym and homophone mean the same thing despite the very clearly different suffixes that have very obviously different meanings.
51. Re:Not about ease, about authority by fuzzy2k · 2014-09-15 11:36 · Score: 1
  
  till one day the kid who keeps getting beet up and having there lunch money stolen takes a weapon to school and uses it on the bully
  And, once you've begun, it is apparently difficult to stop, so you move on to "innocent" victims, but you've been to this elementary school every day since preschool, and you know there are no innocents here, just the unindicted! They'll all meet (insert favorite figure from your understanding of your chosen religion here) when you send them there! p.s. beet is a root vegetable. beat is what you do to a rug.
  
  --
  --- Say something clever. Pretend it was me. Thanks.
52. Re:Not about ease, about authority by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-15 11:57 · Score: 0
  
  Secondly, anyone who says "just use a card and/or pin" has never worked in a school before.
  I've BEEN through school. I never once lost my ID card.
  
  UK law requires explicit opt-in these days, so nobody gets enrolled in the biometric system without parental consent.
  Hmmm, did not know that. Thanks for the info. I wish we could get that kind of enlightenment here.
  
  As for parents forgetting to top up accounts, that tends not to happen.
  It happens here all the time.
  http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/30/us/utah-school-lunches-snatched/index.html
  http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2014/06/11/cafeteria-throws-out-students-lunch-because-hes-26-cents-short/
  http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/04/17605048-parents-outraged-that-mass-middle-schoolers-were-denied-lunch
53. Re:Not about ease, about authority by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-16 01:44 · Score: 0
  
  I sore at least too.
54. Re:Not about ease, about authority by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-16 14:52 · Score: 0
  
  All of your "simpler means" require manual human checking by the "lunch lady". The whole point of the new system is that there IS NO LUNCH LADY. It is designed to eliminate a human from the loop. If the lunch lady was earning $40k (much more if unionized), and her position is eliminated, then this $20k system will pay for itself in six months.
  HA! I say again HA! I don't know about the UK, but here in the USA that "extra" money would be immediately diverted to yet another unneeded administrative position and there would be an emergency bond measure to cover the 60k shortfall in wages. I have seen similar happen many times in the past ten years.
55. Re:Not about ease, about authority by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-16 22:32 · Score: 0
  
  I've BEEN through school. I never once lost my ID card.
  Congratulations. You're clearly got your head screwed on. You can't say that about all the students though, especially when you're dealing with the ones in lower sets with special educational needs.
  As for forgetting cards, on a non-uniform day you'd literally get around half the school turning up without their cards because they'd left their card in their uniform. Then someone forgets to remove their card from their jacket, it goes through the washer and ends up snapped in half.
  Sure, the problem students may be in the minority, but if they're a large enough minority it can still make the difference between getting everyone through lunch in the space of an hour or having lunch overrun into afternoon lessons. I've seen it happen.
  
  [Failing to top up accounts] happens here all the time.
  http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/30/us/utah-school-lunches-snatched/index.html
  http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2014/06/11/cafeteria-throws-out-students-lunch-because-hes-26-cents-short/
  http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/04/17605048-parents-outraged-that-mass-middle-schoolers-were-denied-lunch
  I don't doubt that it happens in some places, but it's not a problem at this school. I'm sure the same could happen with parents who forget to give their students cash to buy lunch with in the morning. Sometimes students do go into negative balance. The system here is set up to allow for that, and our admin staff are pretty good at chasing parents when that happens. As I said, the students from low income backgrounds have their meals paid for by the local authority, so their parents aren't paying for their meals anyway.
Norovirus anyone? by detritus. · 2014-09-14 04:44 · Score: 3, Insightful

Awesome! Let's have everyone use their index finger, touch the same spot and then eat a bunch of food with their hands. What could possibly go wrong?
1. Re:Norovirus anyone? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 06:30 · Score: 0
  
  Indeed.
  I see enough (supposedly adult, well-educated, well-paid) folks in the office picking their nose or scratching their junk that I always make sure to wash my hand after using the (rarely-cleaned) touch-screen-operated coffee machine..
  I remember seeing a news report on the local news lately about how a local school (or nursing home, I forget) had discovered that sick-days decreased after reminding staff to wash their hands regularly.. Right.. Do we _really_ have to tell people this - in 2014?!
2. Re:Norovirus anyone? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 06:50 · Score: 0
  
  Pair it with an automated sanitation system - UVGI, for example. Problem solved.
3. Re:Norovirus anyone? by istartedi · 2014-09-14 07:10 · Score: 2
  
  Copper and silver have anti-microbial properties. This problem was solved centuries ago by pure dumb luck.
  
  --
  For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
4. Re:Norovirus anyone? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 14:50 · Score: 0
  
  It wasn't dumb luck. It was natural selection.
5. Re:Norovirus anyone? by AmiMoJo · 2014-09-14 18:13 · Score: 1
  
  Kids being kids one of them will shove his finger up his arse before touching it. I don't think a bit of anti-bacterial effect is going to cut it.
  
  --
  const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
  SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
6. Re:Norovirus anyone? by cdrudge · 2014-09-15 00:41 · Score: 1
  
  Probably a lot less then what would go wrong if we tried to live in a completely sterile environment.
7. Re:Norovirus anyone? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-15 04:22 · Score: 0
  
  I also don't think that is going to kill them (it certainly is 'gross' and qualifies the kid for a solid 15 minutes of yelling 'cooties' at it). Given that these bacteria were already inside their body, reinserting them is unlikely (not impossibly) to harm them even more.
8. Re:Norovirus anyone? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-15 04:40 · Score: 0
  
  Only on the surface level. Once a film builds up from enough contact, the copper and silver only have an effective depth since they are no longer in direct contact throughout the thickness of the film.
  That and making an optical fingerprint scanner out of opaque metals might result in a sub-optimal scanner.
9. Re:Norovirus anyone? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-15 06:23 · Score: 0
  
  That's why I operate touchscreens and elevator buttons by the knuckle of my middle finger.
  I'm a lot less likely to have to touch anything personal with it before I wash my hands next time.
  The tricky thing is how to operate bathroom doorknob without touching it with my just washed hands.
here in the states by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 04:47 · Score: 0

We just use a 4 or 5 digit assigned pin to buy lunch using a pre-paid account and if the kid forgets their number they can prove who they are to the lunch lady with their student ID (which I am not sure it that much less Orwellian but its something).
Or, you know by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 04:48 · Score: 0

Those lunches were never paid for by the school district as far as I know. There were programs for children that didn't have money for lunch, but they were the only ones. When my parents were in school they had to pay or bring their own, that was back in the '50s and '60s. When I was in school during the '80s and '90s it was the same deal, we had to bring our own or pay for it.
Perhaps in other countries those lunches are paid for by the school district, but not in the US. It's a bit of freedom to eat what you want, although that seems to be eroding as food allergies are more common and there's more concern about what kids are bringing for lunch.
Spurious Claim by Bob9113 · 2014-09-14 04:49 · Score: 1

The benefits are that pupils are less likely to lose [money stored in the fingerprint system than money carried in their pockets]
That is a spurious claim. The security on money stored in pockets and exchanged by physical transfer of a monetary token is fallible, but so is the security on the cafeteria electronic wallet system. Home Depot, Supervalu, and Albertson's are very recent examples of major compromises, and the number of small scale compromises is enormous.
Fingerprints can be faked, networks can be cracked, databases can crash. Merely moving from physical currency to electronic currency does not make it more secure -- just ask Mt. Gox.

--
Stop-Prism.org: Opt Out of Surveillance
1. Re:Spurious Claim by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 05:11 · Score: 0
  
  Merely moving from physical currency to electronic currency does not make it more secure -- just ask Mt. Gox.
  Putting your trust in an unregulated overseas pseudo bank run by anarchists/libertarians is as stupid as posting your credit card information on 4chan. The possibility of losing your money in a deposit account in a regulated financial institution is astoundingly low. It certainly less risky than walking around the streets with huge money clip or hiding your cash underneath your mattress.
2. Re:Spurious Claim by Bob9113 · 2014-09-14 06:00 · Score: 1
  
  It certainly less risky than walking around the streets with huge money clip
  Did you not even read the links about Home Depot, Supervalu, and Albertson's? It is not certainly less risky. For example, it is more risky if you live in an area that has very little threat of mugging, or if you are perceived as a bad target for muggers. I generally have a few hundred dollars in my pocket, and have never been mugged; but my card is for sale on the Russian markets right now because I used Home Depot.
  You are as stubbornly ignorant as people who say self-driving cars will automatically be safer. Computers aren't magically endowed with perfection. Believe me; I'm a software engineer, and I've seen some really heinous bugs. I'm not saying electronic payments (or autonomous vehicles) are bad -- I'm saying software and networks have risks just like meatware and meatspace.
  
  --
  Stop-Prism.org: Opt Out of Surveillance
3. Re:Spurious Claim by Kijori · 2014-09-14 23:41 · Score: 1
  
  I'm not sure it's a spurious claim when you consider the circumstances that they're using it in.
  The users are children, meaning that they are much more likely to lose or forget their money than adults. The system is (presumably) closed, so that the only thing you can do with the funds is buy school lunches (and maybe ask for a cheque payable to the kid's parents), so it's not a very tempting target for attack.
  So while it's true that "merely moving from physical currency to electronic currency does not make it more secure", it's a bit silly to suggest that it never makes it more secure (or more reliable), and this sounds a perfect case for it being both.
Bring a lunch yourself? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 04:51 · Score: 0

What's wrong with preparing a lunch at home then bringing it to school like everyone did 20 years ago?
1. Re:Bring a lunch yourself? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 04:57 · Score: 0
  
  Muhahaha. Allow parents to care for the nutrition of their own children?!?!?
2. Re:Bring a lunch yourself? by confused+one · 2014-09-14 05:14 · Score: 1
  
  Too many kids show up with nothing, or nothing of any nutritional value, because the parent can't or won't prepare a lunch..
3. Re:Bring a lunch yourself? by jedidiah · 2014-09-14 05:29 · Score: 1
  
  > Too many kids show up with nothing, or nothing of any nutritional value, because the parent can't or won't prepare a lunch..
  In a school district like that, there's so many kids on the dole that they are all getting a free lunch anyways. It's easier on the school district that way.
  
  --
  A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
4. Re:Bring a lunch yourself? by s0nicfreak · 2014-09-14 08:53 · Score: 1
  
  So how are these kids surviving over summer vacation?
5. Re:Bring a lunch yourself? by StormCrow · 2014-09-14 10:52 · Score: 1
  
  Going hungry a lot, or getting fed by summer programs set up by various charities to feed kids like this in neighborhoods where it's prevalent.
old news.. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 04:52 · Score: 0

my kids already do this in Kansas (gasp!) at Buhler usd 313.
School == prison by fustakrakich · 2014-09-14 04:57 · Score: 1

Gotta condition the little rug rats as best you can. Parents just want them out of the house...

--
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
Sigh. by ledow · 2014-09-14 05:14 · Score: 5, Informative

I work in IT in English schools.
Welcome to a decade ago.
I've worked in several schools that have biometric library systems and the move to cashless canteens has been underway for years (I've never happened to work with one, but that's not because they aren't around).
It is sold as preventing bullying, stopping you having to pay for the cards, etc. The privacy implications came up 10-15 years ago. Nobody, especially parents, really cared.
Hell, five years ago, my daughter's creche had fingerprint entry (I refused to take part, mainly because I saw it as insecure given I could gummi-bear the reader and enter as whoever came in last, but I was apparently the first to complain).
Old news people. It's already in schools all over the UK. There was minimal protest.
1. Re:Sigh. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 05:41 · Score: 0
  
  I do recall that when there was protest, parents weren't allowed to complain because this was apparently something between child and school, dixit the information commissioner(!). So much for parental responsibility.
  It doesn't surprise me then that another few people managed to get pr0n filters mandated by default nationwide with an "opt in (to porn)" (opt out from filtering, but who's counting the affronts here) process requiring a tacit admission of perverse tendencies with full personal identification attached. Again with "minimal protest".
  In contrast, the ID card ruckus was really surprising. Perhaps because they explicitly went for the soft targets with a promise to take it from there right from the get-go?
2. Re:Sigh. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 06:20 · Score: 0
  
  Oh, give it a rest. The UK school system is primitive and is merely used to replace the checkout till. Stop being so over dramatic, this is a simple system that has been used for many years, it's used all over the world in theme park admittance and corporate offices. Try getting out in the world for once and stop lying about technology and national filters. Because that's what you are doing, you are lying out of of fucking arse. (*)
  (*) To the rest of the world, the UK does not use an opt-in filter, the only filtering is ISPs asking whether you want age restriction filtering on, no different to what MS Windows has been offering on account creation for years. AC is full of shit.
3. Re:Sigh. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 06:35 · Score: 0
  
  The UK is that place with all the Orwellian cameras, right?
4. Re:Sigh. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 19:40 · Score: 0
  
  I was going to say the same thing. The last school I worked at got fingerprint scanning for the cafeteria just after I left. That was over five years ago.
5. Re:Sigh. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 20:14 · Score: 0
  
  Oh, give it a rest.
  Yesssss, that was the point exactly. Thank you for illustrating it so cogently.
  
  The UK school system is primitive and is merely used to replace the checkout till. Stop being so over dramatic, this is a simple system that has been used for many years, it's used all over the world in theme park admittance and corporate offices.
  None of that makes it a better idea.
  
  Try getting out in the world for once and stop lying about technology and national filters. Because that's what you are doing, you are lying out of of fucking arse. (*)
  (*) To the rest of the world, the UK does not use an opt-in filter,
  Well, no, they use a default-on "protect the children from porn!!1!"-filter and that turning it off ("opting in to porn" according to the proposers, but default-on means having to "opt out") involves "proving your age" by, say, credit card, meaning you're now on record as a pr0n-watching pervert, by name. NO AC PORN FOR YOU.
  
  the only filtering is ISPs asking whether you want age restriction filtering on, no different to what MS Windows has been offering on account creation for years. AC is full of shit.
  Well, no, the filter SHOULD be opt-in, but it isn't. Also, it's not the only filter: There's the child porn filtering, which actually predates this latest nation-wide censorship thing, where ISPs consult the "internet watch foundation"-run blacklist to decide to let you have your virgin killer wikipedia page or not.
  So, I'm going to assume parent AC was lambasting himself for poor hygiene.
6. Re:Sigh. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 22:46 · Score: 0
  
  yep, parents are dumb shits, they just can't be bothered to understand why this is a bad idea!
  I've just gone through the refusal on my oldest son.
  At every stage of introduction to the school they tried to get digits scanned, pushy isn't the word.
  They said they would give him a pin instead, took 4 days before he could have lunch.
  Luckily i sent him with a packed lunch anyway, suspecting they would drag their heel's expecting us to just give in and go with the flow.
  Not fucking impressed.
7. Re:Sigh. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-15 00:44 · Score: 0
  
  No it's the place that doesn't have to have armed guards watching over it's kids as they learn and metal detectors and pat downs as kids enter the school "compound" for the day.
8. Re:Sigh. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-15 04:06 · Score: 0
  
  I work in a private school in Ontario, Canada and we've implemented a similar system in several of our member schools over the last 5-10 years. It goes in without fuss and the parents are able to monitor their child's account from a web portal and add funds through either a bank transfer (through their online banking website) or through direct deposit. The child makes their purchase in the caf and then authenticates the payment via fingerprint. There is no billing home to the parent at the end of the month as the funds are deducted from a pre-loaded account that the parents load funds into.
  I've been using the system for about 4 years and it is a vast improvement from others that I have setup in the past with ID cards. In one school I was in where they used mag-swipe cards and I was forever re-printing cards for kids who had lost theirs. Big time suck.
And you call this progress? by ControlsGeek · 2014-09-14 05:22 · Score: 2

I used to walk home and my Mum would make lunch for me and any chum I brought along.
1. Re:And you call this progress? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 09:24 · Score: 0
  
  Let kids leave school property in the middle of the school day? Unheard of these days. They won't even let kids walk home after school alone. Even if the kid only lives half a mile down the street, a parent has to come pick them up and walk them home.
Easy up now by Anonymice · 2014-09-14 05:29 · Score: 5, Informative

Two things...
First off, British schools don't have "rent-a-cops", security scanners or ID cards, this is an American thing. The hardest security you'll come across in a school in the UK is the school gate.
Secondly, the biometrics are just an additional method of payment, it's entirely optional. No one's stopping you from paying in cash. If I was tasked with setting up a hassle free method of tracking kids deductions from their pre-paid balance, this would likely be the route I'd go too. It's far cheaper to buy 2-3 scanners than to kit the whole school out with RFID tags, and it doesn't come with the inevitable hang-up of things getting lost, stolen or forgotten.
There's not much risk of the data being shared outside the school, as even the police aren't allowed to store biometric records of anyone without an active criminal record.
1. Re:Easy up now by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 07:45 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  This is still disturbing. Kids are not learning responsibility and at the same time being taught to submit to a draconian authoritative system. While I'm for a safety net in society (housing, food, education, health, etc), some guiding for youngsters to help get them going, etc this takes it to a whole new level. Kids need to learn that there are consequences to not showing up on time, not getting projects done on time, not scheduling things appropriately, forgetting things, etc. Kids should be put in a position to get themselves up in the morning, catch the bus by themselves, pay debts, pay for essentials like meals, given trust/responsibility to do things even when they may fail (teaches kids to overcome and deal with the consequences of failure), etc.
  We have more and more young adults who can't manage themselves. Can't get through college simply because they don't know how to get themselves to class on time repeatedly- or work for that matter. They can't even come up with an excuse when they are late-let alone a good one. I've had two employees in the recent past who weren't able to get themselves to work every day on time. And I'm extremely lenient when I say “on time”. If your within 15 minutes in either direction that is “on time” to me. In any event both employees here didn't last long and it wasn't me firing them either. They simply were coddled and continue to be coddled to excess. Both were otherwise intelligent and capable individuals.
2. Re:Easy up now by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 08:11 · Score: 0
  
  Just wait until somebody brings a gun or some other weapon to school and commits a crime. All of these biometric devices will get raided, searched, and dumped into an outside database with no oversight whatsoever.
3. Re:Easy up now by Mitreya · 2014-09-14 10:12 · Score: 1
  
  Secondly, the biometrics are just an additional method of payment, it's entirely optional. No one's stopping you from paying in cash.
  Oh, yes, because optional things never become mandatory. Only 10 years ago, the EZ-pass highway electronic payment system was optional. It even offered a discount (initially).
  Now, there are several bridges where cash payment has been eliminated altogether. And many, many locations where the only available cash lane requires extra 15 minutes of my time.
  I am talking about US, but I am sure such "optional" feature creep is an international thing.
4. Re:Easy up now by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 12:33 · Score: 0
  
  Now, there are several bridges where cash payment has been eliminated altogether. And many, many locations where the only available cash lane requires extra 15 minutes of my time.
  Oh fuck off. Do you think this gives them some sort of magical ability to track you that they already didn't have? Just get the EZ-Pass and quit your bitching.
  You go through a toll both, it's trivially easy for them to put a license plate scanning camera in that toll lane as well, even if you're paying cash because you think you're such a secret fucking agent that everybody wants to track your movements. In fact, they HAVE those cameras in most toll booths, and have for years - how the fuck else do you think they send you tickets for blowing through tolls?
5. Re:Easy up now by amxcoder · 2014-09-14 17:36 · Score: 1
  
  Umm, actually yes. When the FasTrak systems here in the Bay Area, CA, were initially rolled out, it was promised they would not be used for tracking and only used for toll collection. Now that many bridges only have FasTrak lanes (no more cash) and they are in large use, they are being used to collect information on travel times and current freeway speeds around the Bay Area. I have no doubts that the sensors that are scanning these for those other uses, are also keeping records of "whose" pass was scanned and the location. That is tracking isn't it?
  
  prior to this, other than maybe toll bridges, the only method that could have been employed would have been basic CalTrans freeway cameras. These cameras are low quality, and wide FOV, meaning that software licence plate recognition would be difficult to impossible to use on these.
6. Re:Easy up now by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-15 00:32 · Score: 0
  
  Two things....
  My kids pre-school implemented a fingerprint scanner to get through the front door just before he left to go to primary school.
  The College I work at - you need an ID card to enter. Doesn't matter that I've been here 3 years and we all know the names of each others kids.
  This IS in Britain you understand.
7. Re:Easy up now by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-15 01:14 · Score: 0
  
  Gotta indoctrinate those kids into the idea of a cashless society as early as possible so they won't question it as adults.
Sweet deal! by Indigo · 2014-09-14 05:48 · Score: 1

My children won't have to carry small amounts of cash, won't be allowed to buy snacks, and won't be allowed to buy food they already know they're allergic to? And in return they can spend their formative years being indoctrinated that being fingerprinted by the authorities every single day of their lives is the way we should all live our lives? Where do I sign up?
1. Re:Sweet deal! by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 07:05 · Score: 0
  
  So I'm being fingerprinted by my laptop and phone everytime I log into them, and is that submitting to authority every single day? No it's a convenience...
  no, I'm using my fingerprint for access... This isn't "Authority" it's lunch lady Doris... And does a kid know those Rice Krispy treats have peanut butter in them, because the ones with peanut butter look identical to the ones without peanut butter... oops they grabbed the wrong one? I think your anger at "being fingerprinted" is a bit excessive. Would you rather them have to show a picture ID to a security guard? Which one is more "submitting to Authority"? Kids have to show ID now to get into schools, that's WAY more "indoctrinating" than this. I think you need to focus your anger at OTHER, MORE PRESSING issues. And issues that are actually happening and are closer to what you're opposed to. but... no, let's make it harder for kids to get their lunch...
  To me the benefits far outweigh the "indoctrination" kids forget PIN numbers /lose cards/cash, kids can share PIN numbers/ cards/cash, kids can be bullied out of PIN numbers/cards/cash... kid's can't forget their thumb, they can't share their thumb, and I sincerely hope they'll never be bullied out of their thumb... (and a kid coming with a severed thumb to pay for lunch would definately raise suspicions that that thumb is not theirs... It takes something away from bullies, it adds a level of security for parents' money.
  Yeah they have to put their thumb on a scanner every day to get food... The one thing that I'm concerned with is, hygiene... all those kids with snotty noses rubbing their snotty hands on a scanner... how often will it be cleaned, (every kid, every 5 kids, once a day?) it should almost have a thing of alcohol swabs to wipe it off after each use. or have hand sanitizer before hands.. or something... heck have the kids wash their hands right before using it. then you're sure your kids are washing your hands before eating too...
WHy is this news? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 06:16 · Score: 0

Why is this news on SLashdot? Schools in this area have been doign this for years. And when I say years, I am meaning for 6-8 years. Kids don;t need cash to eat. Parent deposit the money into an account, and even if the account goes negative because the child eats more than the parents prepay for, they still eat, the parent just get a bill. This system has been around for a while. Is it because the word BIOMETRIC in the title? Bah, it's a fingerprint scanner. There is no national database, no authority issues, it jsut lets the kids eat without having to have a person in line to accept money and make change.
What about hygiene? by OurDailyFred · 2014-09-14 06:30 · Score: 1

Do the students wash their hands before using the scanner? How often is the scanner disinfected? Will it have a fine collection of elementary school nasal mucous?
While there is some wisdom in allowing the natural exposure to "childhood" diseases so antibodies can develop naturally to protect us in later life, do we want schoolkids to be sampling each other's nasal secretions?

--
If your only tool is a hammer, you'll approach every problem as if it were a nail. - Abraham Maslow
1. Re:What about hygiene? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 12:02 · Score: 0
  
  And don't forget the diabetic kids, who poke their fingers to get blood drops, multiple times a day. Do we want to expose *them* to the scary germs kids already carry around in school, or vice versa? I'd love to see some cultures done on that school's fingerprint readers.
  It's a great way to identify those kids with "un-american" parents who object to the program for further political "attention".
2. Re:What about hygiene? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 17:02 · Score: 0
  
  Give it a fucking rest.
  Explain to me the difference in exposure here:
  1) Child wipes nose with hand, getting snot all over his hand.
  2) Child plucks ID card out of pocket, where it's been stewing in god only knows what pocket lint, dirt and other debris.
  3) Child smears snot all over card as he hands it over to the woman operating the POS system.
  4) Woman swipes card through magnetic reader.
  5) Woman hands card back to child.
  6) Now woman's hands & magnetic reader have snot residue on them.
  7) Now every other child whose ID card she touches & swipes will add to the snot residue and share in the bounty.
  8) Kids get sick.
  vs.
  1) Child wipes nose with hand, getting snot all over it.
  2) Child simply touches finger to a scanner, and gets snot all over the scanner.
  3) Next child comes along, touches snotty finger to scanner, and adds to the snot residue, and then shares in the bounty.
  4) kids get sick.
  NEITHER system eliminates the problem of snotty fingers transferring disease. If this is such a concern, then you extend the lunch period by 5 minutes, and march the kids to the restrooms for a short bathroom & hand-washing break just before they go have lunch.
  And frankly, the fingerprint scanner could be wiped down by the attendant with a disinfectant, or treated with an antimicrobial agent, or constructed with antimicrobial techniques (materials & accessories such as a UV lamp to blast the finger scanner between scans). Good luck doing that with ID cards and a magstripe scanner.
3. Re:What about hygiene? by SecurityGuy · 2014-09-15 02:35 · Score: 1
  
  This is stupid. If you're going to poke your finger to get a blood drop, disinfect the finger before you poke it, not every surface you're going to come in contact with.
Reusability potential? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 06:32 · Score: 0

Is this connected to the earlier article about a high school student building a gun that unlocks with your fingerprint?
Sucks to be a criminal... by Martin+Spamer · 2014-09-14 06:33 · Score: 1

Perhaps you should not have broken the law then you would not be on the National Criminal database.
I've never broken the law and therefore not on the database.
1. Re:Sucks to be a criminal... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 06:45 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  You get on it just for being arrested.
Meanwhile in the rest of Europe... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 06:36 · Score: 0

Similar systems, although usually based on magnetic stripe or RFID cards, have been used in Portugal and Spain for more than 5 years. It works well as it can be used for school entry, lunch (there is a web-based system that allows you to book meals only for specific days, paid with the balance in the card), buying office/school supples inside the school, borrowing books from the library, etc.
As for the privacy concerns, in Europe most countries have mandatory national ID carts so the state has your kids' fingerprints already... As for the schools themselves, yeah they will collect extra data on our children, but what's the worst that can happen? The people at the school may find out they didn't go in for lunch yesterday or ate something they are allergic to? Oh god forbid the schools ever learn about that!
Honestly, I think fingerprints are unnacessary as this can be accomplished by other means, but I don't see what the fuss is all about...
Had this similar system in 1996 by danknight48 · 2014-09-14 06:44 · Score: 1

Back then, Biometric was replaced with a "Smart Card", basically todays credit card with a "smart chip" inside and photo ID of its owner.
Our parents would add money to the account which is linked to the user. Then the user just inserts their "smart card" when paying for food at the cafeteria. The operator would check the photo ID on the card, job done.
Biometric is just an upgrade to that system, which worked really well nearly 20 years ago lol. Good times, and years ahead.
How is this news? by TheGrimmReaper · 2014-09-14 07:35 · Score: 1

How is this news? I work at a public school (in IT) and we've had this option for a number of years (just opted to go with pin number instead, cleaner and cheaper) so I would expect many schools have been doing this for a while.
1. Re:How is this news? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 22:57 · Score: 0
  
  they like to make it harder to opt out!.
  Basically treat you like a cunt!
2. Re:How is this news? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-15 00:52 · Score: 0
  
  Because BIG BURTHER FASHIST SUBJIGGATION!!111ONE111!!!
  PRIVUHSEE!!!!
  CONTABUTIONAL RITES!111!
  This is "news" because a bunch of conspiracy theorist asperger's cases have decided that any piece of technology that they didn't personally approve of or wouldn't have personally designed in exactly the same way is evidence of a massive government conspiracy to indoctrinate children into being passive cattle under the watchful eye of some unspecified government program that somehow requires people to be completely passive in order to justify the militarization of the police force, somehow. Because everybody knows that passive, peaceful, law-abiding citizens who never break the law or challenge the established order are the ones you have to really go full-on SWAT Team for.
  In other words: it's news because a bunch of fucking illogical mouth breathers are luddites who knee-jerk with a conspiracy theory explanation for every action the government ever takes. And ironically, they then turn around and vote in more of the politicians who promise to increase the role and power of government, because "progressive policy!"
finger scanning fingerprint by jklovanc · 2014-09-14 09:37 · Score: 1

A finger scanner looks for certain features and reduces the result to a number. There are many different algorithms to do this encoding. Even different versions of the same model use different algorithms and fingers have to be re-scanned. The bottom line is that, in most cases, finger scans from different systems can not be use to identify someone between systems.
Please sir, can I have another? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 11:28 · Score: 0

Tchoss! Off with the rotten lot o' ye!
Re:finger scanning fingerprint by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 12:46 · Score: 0

Except that they also maintain the source database of image scans, not abstracted data. With the image database, you can fairly easily fake fingerprints for all known fingerprint scanners.
http://cryptome.org/fake-print...
Nothing new. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 13:25 · Score: 0

I work for a schools system, and we used a biometric system a few years ago. All of our schools use a PIN system, but one experimented with fingerprint scanners. I don't think it was very reliable though, and not really worth the trouble.
This is a nice solution by able1234au · 2014-09-14 14:30 · Score: 1

Not sure why you all are just finding problems with it.
1. Re:This is a nice solution by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-14 22:49 · Score: 0
  
  because it's not fucking necessary!!!
  Like to sleep walk into an oppressive Nazi government, continue with your apathy!!
Or you could just... by kenh · 2014-09-14 18:27 · Score: 1

Or you could just have the kids learn a 4 digit PIN, like the majority of schools in America do...
Honestly, the cashier has a keypad, the kid just types in their PIN after the cashier adds up their purchase, and the account is debited (unless the student is eligible for a free meal, in which case the student does the exact same thing, but no money is deducted from an account - thus removing the stigma of being from a low income family, at least as far as lunch in the cafeteria is concerned)...

--
Ken
1. Re:Or you could just... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-15 03:15 · Score: 0
  
  Yeah, all the public schools in the state I grew up in has used a PIN+name system since at least the early-'90s when I was still in school. Seems weird that not only the UK is finally starting to go cashless, but are also going full retard in its implementation.
My kids have this already by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-15 00:13 · Score: 0

This has been used in my kids schools for the last couple of years, (North Lincs)
They brought home a letter explaining the system and asking for consent to record the kids biometric data. I refused consent and they have continued to use a pin system. I still put money on their accounts on-line where I can also see a list of all the items they have purchased.
I'm less afraid of bullies getting their pin numbers out of them than I am about the misuse of biometric data. They can easily get new pin numbers, ID cards or whatever. They cannot be issued new fingers.
Is this news? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-15 00:33 · Score: 0

Hang on...
How is this news?
My wife teaches at a school in Milton Keynes, England (about 80 miles from the Stourbridge school mentioned in the post) and they've had the fingerprint cashless system since the school opened about 10 years ago!!!
Get with the times, Stourbridge!
Another plus:allows pudding only after eating meat by enjar · 2014-09-15 01:37 · Score: 1

If you don't eat yer meat, you can't have any pudding!
How can you have any pudding if you don't eat yer meat?!
Fuss about nothing by Xerxes42 · 2014-09-15 05:04 · Score: 1

My daughter's school uses this system, it's not a full 'proper criminal' fingerprint, they use the side of their index finger, it is sufficient to pay for things in the canteen, but is in no way an invasion of privacy or 'pre-criminalising' the students.
Just wrong! by ebvwfbw · 2014-09-15 14:25 · Score: 1

There's a whole economy with bullies taking lunch money from other kids. How are they supposed to do that anymore?
At a school ... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-16 05:50 · Score: 0

I don't really have any privacy concerns - but hygiene concerns!