Slashdot Mirror
Why Military Personnel Make the Best IT Pros
Nerval's Lobster writes Every year, approximately 250,000 military personnel leave the service to return to civilian life. When the home front beckons, many will be looking to become IT professionals, a role that, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, is among the fastest growing jobs in the country. How their field skills will translate to the back office is something to ponder. With the advent of virtualization, mobile, and the cloud, tech undergoes rapid changes, as do the skill sets needed to succeed. That said, the nature of today's military—always on the go, and heavily reliant on virtual solutions—may actually be the perfect training ground for IT. Consider that many war-fighters already are IT technicians: They need to be skilled in data management, mobile solutions, security, the ability to fix problems as they arise onsite, and more. Military personnel used to working with everything from SATCOM terminals to iPads are ideally suited for handling these issues; many have successfully managed wireless endpoints, networks, and security while in the field. Should programs that focus on placing former military personnel in civilian jobs focus even more on getting them into IT roles?
In my field (systems engineering,) discipline, troubleshooting skills and attention to detail are pretty critical. I would think an ex-military person would be the ideal antidote to the cowboy sysadmins you see at a lot of places. Those guys get a lot done, but can cause a lot of damage by not thinking through things to their full conclusion. Good military people (and I'm not one) aren't just rule-followers -- they're good at seeing where they fit in a bigger picture, something that really is lacking in a lot of folks' skill sets.
Former military person seeking IT job.
...than most people who haven't served in the military.
In the military there are no excuses for failure, yes - everyone can get it wrong, but if you're a military man...you don't complain, you get it DONE!
That attitude alone solves a LOT of problems. I've been working in the IT Sector for a LONG time and no matter what field you're in, I could spot a former military man MILES away, because they have a positive go-getter attitude, and I've yet to ever hear an long boring attitude related discussion about an issue with such a man, they listen - and work until the problems are solved.
I'd hire people like that in a heartbeat!
What this world is coming to - is for you and me to decide.
I'm guessing this is one reason why so many ex-military people have a hard time getting work. Many end up in law enforcement or similar work simply because the skills translate best there. But there are plenty of non-combat military personnel also.
I haven't had good luck with ex-military I.T. people. They want a manual that they can follow step-by-step for every little thing. "Figure it out" is not something they want to hear.
For every former-military IT-pro that's a true expert in their field (of whom I've worked with a couple) there's a former-military IT-pro that was trained on one very specific system and cannot handle even basic common-knowledge tasks.
I worked with someone that was former-military that started on the helpdesk like most people in the organization, and workorders were created with descriptions like, "Computer does not start." This description meant everything from the computer wouldn't power on to the user couldn't remember their password to log-in.
I worked with someone else that was a communications cabling specialist that probably forgot more about cabling than I ever knew, and could deal with phones, copper ethernet, and fiber ethernet without batting an eye. So at least there's that.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
When nerds are cool, only jocks will be nerds
Just another second banana
I work with several IT guys that are former military. They're good guys and work hard but not one of them is an actual geek... If it isn't something they're trained in they just don't do very well. Small sample size in (my office) but I don't see it.
We're practically military already.
I served in the Navy and trained as a cryptolinguist (Mandarin Chinese), though after my language training I decided military life wasn't for me and left for academia. I've kept in touch with a lot of my former service members who stayed in for their whole 4-year or 6-year enlistment, and it amazed me to see how almost none of them were able to transition to similar employment in the civilian world. On the language side, the sort of texts they were working with were limited and not at all like the business communications and government forms that drive the civilian translation market. On the technology-using side, they may have been whizbang operators of specialist military software, but they didn't get more experience in e.g. Office than anyone else out there. Consequently, my peers either entered whole different fields (one Chinese linguist became a marriage counselor) or entered IT only after doing a whole 4-year university degree in the civilian world to make up for what they lacked.
The military might train you to do things, but they might not compare to what the civilian market wants. And sure, military people have a reputation for working under pressure and learning new skills, but in this day and age ever fewer civilian employers have the patience to keep paying you while they wait for you to learn new tricks.
By the same definition, so are every child in the country, always on the edge trying to make their parents desperate by being cutting edge. Uses plenty of software and tech. It would seem "IT" is the new buz word of the employment sector ?
I don't want to discriminate about IT, but there is no worth creation in IT. It is merely a support job like any other, and by using the right argument, you should be able to make a case that former military personnel would make the best mechanics. Yet, being a mechanic would probably not make the headline on /. (for whatever /. has become)
A lot of IT positions are with the federal government, and many military members parting from service already possess the security clearances required for those positions. It's often cheaper to train someone that already possess a security clearance to be an IT professional than it is to get an IT professional their security clearance.
Sig withheld to protect the innocent.
I am in the military and it is hard to say how I compare to civilians since I haven't had an IT job on the civilian side yet (I did work in manufacturing before I joined). However I can say that in the few short years that I have been in I have worked on a plethora of systems. Possibly more than I ever could have with a civilian job. Furthermore the military can be very demanding and anyone who has been in can tell you that. Also everything you do someone’s life depends on it so it is more stressful than anything I had to do as a civilian. So those few things right there are probably why companies like to hire veterans. Especially when you think about the fact that we have great experience, work like mules, and can handle stress far easier than most of our civilian counter parts.
... but I have a feeling that their IT skills are going to come in at "bottom-of-the-barrel," I mean sure they'll be able to help you restart a computer or work at a helpdesk. But I wouldn't consider a job with no real growth at most companies to be a solution or even an approach to this problem. The vast majority of those 250,000 are not going to be college educated, or have had any real extensive training in IT.
There are obviously very brilliant people in the military, as with civilian life, I just don't think out of the 250,000 military personnel coming home-- that many are going to be brilliant enough to get great IT jobs (certainly not programming). If they have security clearance then perhaps it's just easier to get a job using that instead of even working in IT. At the rate we're bombing shit in the desert; I can't imagine there's a lack of demand for private security personnel.
Nothing but respect for the troops, but anyone who has worked in a capacity as a Federal contractor or civilian can tell you that this is nonsense. Former military knows how to work the system, and that's about it; they have to be trained on everything else, and convincing them to take training from a civilian can literally take an act of Congress.
This reads like typical "We're number one!" Pentagon propaganda.
Because they just say "yes sir" to everything their boss asks them to do
Yawn.
We've tried hiring ex-military, and it very, very rarely works. If somebody's fresh out of the military, then they're not even considered. If they're not completely brain dead, then they tend to have an attitude of needing everything to be done for them.
Is all the predatory for-profit universities that can't wait to get their hands on these folks' GI Bills and gives them crappy degrees with no real-world knowledge to show for the $50K in taxpayer money that paid for their schooling. Yes, ITT Tech and your peers, I'm looking at you...
for several reasons.
Much of the military infrastructure they used isn't stuff that civilians use. Sure, there are some overlaps, but by and large if someone was in the military as a communications specialist they did specific tasks that would be almost entirely useless outside of military situations with military equipment.
Plus, I hate to say it, but to greater or lesser degrees everyone that gets out of the military after serving for any amount of time is pretty fucked up in the head. I'm not saying they're psychos looking to put holes through people, but the military does alter your basic personality in subtle ways, imo, often times for the worse.
As we should all know here, "IT" isn't one thing. From the outside looking in, what people assume about IT is often entirely wrong. Someone might know a shitload about shell scripting, regex, latex etc and yet not know how to build their own computer or help you sign up for a twitter account. People that don't work in IT fail to grasp that concept quite often.... which brings me to this point:
Many HR people might mistakenly prefer to hire ex military IT people, simply based upon HR's almost universal ignorance of what the field actually entails. Just because someone was in the military doing "IT" it doesn't mean they are going to know anything useful depending on the environment, likewise with someone with a 4 year CS degree that knows a lot of theory and jargon but is entirely inept to carry on any meaningful dialogue with an actual network engineer or sysadmin.
I see this sort of thing happen over and over and over again at so many companies. They hire based upon credentials that are entirely meaningless to the organization.
We really need more IT leaders who are both technically proficient and able to competently direct IT staff. A former E-6 or O-3 with core tech skills and a knack for team building would be a valuable asset
I worked with a bunch of career military guys as well as the standard in and out military folks and I'll tell you it is not much fun talking to someone in the field, trying to walk them through the setup of a router or editing config files in vi. My company's lousy solution was to send non-military people into hot zones and (obviously) these people nearly got themselves killed.
I'm assuming that a vet can handle work stress better. Having the network down isn't nearly as big a deal as being shot at.
I can't think how that would possibly go wrong.
As others have mentioned, "creative problem solving" is not exactly a skill set that is developed in the military, but it is absolutely crucial to software development and IT generally.
Dog is my co-pilot.
It's kind of true. My job in Army was SATCOM, got out almost 4 years ago, about to finish Bachelor's in CS early next year. SATCOM was pretty much IT in the army. Imaging computers, setting up and maintaining network, running cables, troubleshooting software/hardware, etc. Once I got out I did a few years part time in IT while going to college.
I have to say that all training in the army was kind of half@$$ed. Impossible to fail, short, and not particularly relevant. At least when I went through it around 2003. The actual on the job experience differed significantly from training. Arrive at location, there's either nothing set up, or something that's about to leave with the group you are replacing. Often had to set up 10-50 users from scratch on generator power. Luckily there always seemed to be people around that knew what they were doing, so most of the relevant training was on the job. Monkey see, monkey do. Which is probably the best kind, since classroom can be too abstract. Civilian contractors were always reachable in case we got stuck. There was none of that cutthroat stuff that you might see in business, everyone actually tried to pass on what they knew and the whole organization was oriented towards developing new specialists.
That said, there were plenty of opportunities to fade into the background and pretty much learn nothing. So not everyone was on the same level. The ones that put in the effort got promoted quickly, the ones that coasted along stayed at the same level much longer. No magic there, same as anywhere else.
250,000 per year seems a bit high. Signal core isn't that big, at least active duty. Reservists were somewhat less often as good at their jobs as regular army on average, excluding those that worked in same field at home. Which wasn't that that common. Seemed like a lot of reservists did something totally different for a living. Outside of signal we'd meet plenty of people that didn't even know how to turn on a computer, but I guess that's how a lot of people in IT feel. So if they mean a total of 250k people get out every year, much fewer have military experience in IT.
come out of the military.
you get to help kill people for oil!
Really, that what we are talking about. Become a trained killer, train for IT to help people kill other people.
That said, the question itself is pretty stupid.
I was a Fire Control Technician in the Navy. I went to school for 2 years - 40 hours a week full time. Poor performance was not tolerated. All classroom and practical hands on time was spent on nothing but computers and electronics. I really don't know where else you can get that kind of training in the civilian world.
In a short while, as per all business cycles,
we'll see Pakistani's, Afghans, Iraqi's,
Indians replacing the trained military IT
veterans in American jobs.
won't that make then feel appreciated !!
As well as the rest of us ...
per Zuckerberg and Gates ...
is not someone i'd ever hire at my company..
and that's all military people are, people who chose a path of violence can continue down it until it eventually takes them.
I'm sure i'll get all the patriots yelling at me for 'omg they served our country' no they served someones interest and sold their soul in doing so, unless your talking about the ww2 vets which was the last justifiable military action by the united states.
I think that's a great idea, for a lot of reason. But... I thought you had to live in a hovel on the other side of the world to get a job in IT in the US. I don't see US companies suddenly deciding to reverse that tendency and hire locals as regular employees instead. Would be great if they did, though.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
so government accessories to murder aka accomplices.
As former military, can I just please have you BLOW ME you ignorant little leech on the ass of my country?
People who go into the military with the idea that they want to meet interesting people AND KILL them usually get weeded out in basic training/boot camp. If not, they get weeded out in AIT (occupational training). People like that simply aren't stable enough to get through training in the modern army.
Nobody else really goes into the military with the notion that they want to go out and kill people.
The military's a place to serve one's country, get some occupational training, and rack up money for college. Maybe even find a lifetime career.
There are over 1.4 million people on Active Duty with another million in Ready Reserve (includes National Guard).
The vast MAJORITY of those troops are in military occupational specialties (MOS) that are NOT front-line combat (infantry).
Nobody wants to have to be out there killing people. That usually means that pretty much every other option for negotiation (other than outright appeasement, and Vichy showed us how well THAT went over), has pretty much FAILED. And, even then, the objective of warfare by modern doctrine is NOT about body count. It's about removing the tools and resources necessary to successfully wage warfare against us.
Does that mean we, eventually, wind up killing people?
Yep!
But better them than us.
If YOU, in particular, don't happen to like it, TOUGH FUCKING SHIT. Find some way to serve this country that minimizes the future need for armed conflict and deployment of soldiers into combat that doesn't involve bending and spreading for a bunch of delusional fanatics. I can GUARANTEE you that the very FIRST people stepping up to thank you for your contributions will be the people you've just put out of a job.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
"Hello IT. Have you tried turning it off and on again?"
First the postal shootings..next IT, due to inflow of PTSD inflicted solder hiring and the stupidity in computers by business majors.
(former Navy nuc operator here) Although the direct technical skills from my time really don't apply. The idea of the "block diagram level" knowledge in your mind and the basic troubleshooting process instlled in me there in my training has served me VERY well over the course of my IT career. Not to mention the broad (not necessarily deep) mechanical system knowledge of things like power, HVAC, emergency generators, UPSs, etc. Data center infrastructure has a lot of similarity (at a smaller scale) to safety systems at a nuc plant. Yeah, not broad based the way the article says, but for my more specific part it worked for me!
up or out makes the good IT people look for an out as good IT people do not want to move up to management or up to roll out side of IT.
Perfect for the greedy CEOs of tech companies
Military returning to civilian life and rejoining the work force is a difficult transition, especially among those that were in combat. This issue goes well beyond how marketable they are in IT and if they have the skills. They are not given the support they need to return to civilian life, regardless of what new career path they choose.
With that said, I have some unfortunate anecdotal experience to share. It's not just a matter of military folk having the technical skills and training. The problem I've witnessed is they don't understand and have difficulty integrating into a new corporate structure, from their military structure. A frequent problem we experienced at two previous companies among three veterans from Afghanistan and Iraq were their inability to transition to different social norms. All three had issues with comments they had made that reached HR within a few weeks. Some were making inappropriate sexual comments and even touching their coworkers inappropriately. I've never been in the military, but my guess is they got use to hanging out around a bunch of guys and talking freely in a way one might imagine construction workers do on the side of the road. You really can't grab your male coworkers pecks and joke about body parts.
It was really sad to witness. Some of these guys just didn't seem right after coming back from war. Regardless of whether he got the PTSD label, one of them casually let me know about how he got brains on his boots. Creepy and disturbing to hear this when you're just trying to fix a VoIP phone.
These guys definitely had some skills that were of value, but ultimately didn't fit the culture at the organization.
The weakest link in many of the IT teams I've been a part of have typically been former military.
They do bring a good attitude to the workplace, but they cannot think outside of the box. We just had to let one go at my current office -- he could only take action on things in a slow, "playback" sort of way where he'd follow the same set of steps all of the time. When an unexpected result occurred or a behavior happened which was outside of his prescribed playback, he'd be totally lost and have no idea what to do. His usual fix for things was to throw new hardware at stuff.
Granted, there'll always be chuckleloaves like this, regardless of their background. Some dolts cannot think their way out of a paper sack. I seem to run into an awful lot who have histories in the armed forces.
Seriously, take your Vietnam era "dogs and soldiers keep off the grass", spitting on soldiers bullshit back to the 70's. We don't tolerate those, and the ones we have are thrown out promptly.
I worked in the communications field in the Marines, a couple of my peers would do quite well in civilian IT fields. (I personally transitioned just fine) However a large number of them would absolutely suck at it. A good portion of that stems from the fact that they dont like the field. Take a military member who has some experience with troubleshooting, thinking under preasure, and doesnt mind IT, sure they will be a decent worker in the civilian field. But there isnt anything new or interesting about that statement.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I've had mixed results with this. I have worked with several Marines in the past and all were decent as basic techs. Most of them went into management or non-technical areas in IT and another quit to become a cop. One of my current coworkers was a Navy tech and she is pretty darn good as well. On the other hand, I've worked with two people who came from IT in the Air Force and they are two of the worst techs I have worked with, unable to keep composure under the slightest amount of pressure. I've wondered if that is a result of that branch's culture.
Many military IT admins leave the service and attempt to find a job in the same field but they have two major hurdles.
1. The same job they were doing in the military requires a 4 year degree in the private sector.
This is an issue time and again with not having a degree. There is plenty of debate around here about whether a 4 year degree is really beneficial to everyone. However, you cannot debate the minimum requirements for a DoD contractor position. I have seen plenty of people kicked out of a job that they were good at because the requirements changed and they don't qualify for their own job. This issue is exacerbated by predatory for-profit technical colleges who are preying on those same technicians in order to claim their GI bill $$.
2. Education does matter when it comes to writing skills.
The biggest thing that is lacking for enlisted IT admins is the ability to solve problems in a new way and document the resolution. In the military everything has rules and you are not allowed to write the rules yourself. In private industry everyone is responsible for helping to write the rules for their own position and ensure that the existing processes stay updated. Prior service personnel tend to be very bad at this part of the job and require extensive training in professional writing.
This++. I wish I could mod this up.
The military's a place to serve one's country, get some occupational training, and rack up money for college. Maybe even find a lifetime career.
and you know.. kill people if they're told to
Nobody wants to have to be out there killing people. That usually means that pretty much every other option for negotiation
And yet they put them selves in a position where it may be required. And lol yes america only wields its military might if its absolutely necessary. I'm not even going to address that just lol
If YOU, in particular, don't happen to like it, TOUGH FUCKING SHIT. Find some way to serve this country that minimizes the future need for armed conflict and deployment of soldiers into combat that doesn't involve bending and spreading for a bunch of delusional fanatics. I can GUARANTEE you that the very FIRST people stepping up to thank you for your contributions will be the people you've just put out of a job.
I don't want to serve my country aka the desires of the rich elite. Nor do i want any thanks from the sheep that do their dirty work. Perhaps if america didn't just use the world 'democratizing' for an excuse to conquer things of financial gain.
Only female or minorities are needed. There are already too many white males in tech fields that are ruining everything.
Every year, approximately 250,000 cats leave the house to enter human life. When the job market beckons, many will be looking to become IT professionals, a role that, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, is among the fastest growing jobs in the country. How their field skills will translate to the office is something to ponder. With the advent of virtualization, mobile, and the cloud, tech undergoes rapid changes, as do the skill sets needed to succeed. That said, the nature of today's cats—always on the go, and able to press buttons—may actually be the perfect training ground for IT. Consider that many cats are already are IT technicians: They need to be skilled in sitting, metabolic functions, hand eye coordination, security, the ability to fix problems as they arise onsite, and more. and more. and more! Cats are used to working with everything from strings to iPads. Should programs that focus on placing cats in human jobs focus even more on getting them into IT roles?
X
Former military personnel might be fine for I.T., but I've mostly had bad experience with them in software development. The attitude seems to be get it done as fast as possible and move on to the next thing. The idea that the code you write today might have to be maintained doesn't seem to register. So design and careful coding is jettisoned in favour of speed, speed, speed.
I am a former military IT person. I started out as a SATCOM operator and was able to get my hands on every system down the line that had traffic leaving through my gateway by the end of my time. It was definately a varied experience and if you could learn a system you could administer it IF your warrant officer and SIGO would let you. They of course would not if you proved to be an idiot. Boy, trust me, we had some very special idiots. I learned how to splice fiber and make all sorts of cables. I learned how to employ and what the limitations of various wireless transmission systems were. I have operated all sorts of satellite teminals from 30 meter earth terminals to tiny vsats and ship born platforms. I have installed and maintained large networks and set up VOiP and monitoring services. Some of the best admins I have ever met were fantastic IT pros in the military. They still are in the civilian sector now. As for the geek culture, we would set up LAN parties and play multiplayer combat simulation shooters in countries where there was armed conflict. I have to say that many of the people I have known and worked with in the civilian world may know a webserver really well but not have a clue when it comes to routing and switching. Being in the military has really given me a good perspective on the internet piece by piece as I have actually had my hands in just about every telecommunications tier from the originating host sending a GET request to the edge of the AS.
They are just like kids who play video games a lot. I know one who got 200,000 points, and then turned around and just the very next day wrote a PhD dissertation in computer science! Likewise I know a long haul truckdriver who once drove 40 hours straight, then was qualified as a mechanical engineer. I stare at planes a lot because I want to be a pilot. If I stare enough, then I can just jump in and fly.
Systems are delivered ready-to-use, and the military personnel are there to follow the book to keep them running
Not even close. Former Marine, and current defense contractor here. DoD systems need constant work, and work-arounds. Finding ways to get things done, despite the systems provided, is part of daily military life.
Here's a practical example. Many people would be surprised at the number of changes being made to the V-22 Osprey tiltrotor aircraft that are not coming from degreed engineers but rather from a corporal or sergeant who works on the aircraft. Boeing is routinely sending engineers out to get feedback and suggestions the people who fly and maintain these new and incredibly complicated machines.
And to be honest, this is not really something new. There are similar stories going back to the 50s and probably back to the dawn of military aviation. Its not specific to aviation either. Another famous example is the "teeth" added to tanks during the Normandy campaign of WW2. The tanks were getting stuck in the thick hedgerows, some "hillbilly" suggests putting saw teeth on the tank and some sergeant grabs a welding torch a starts cutting up some angle iron from German anti-tank obstacles and then welding the result onto some tanks. It worked brilliantly.
This just in, some individuals are better suited to some situations than others.
I don't think that anyone had decided that they wouldn't hire ex-military with relevant experience because of where they acquired it. Most organizations require some adjustment from their staff in order to understand and fit into the culture of that place. That is why they still interview potential staff, to see if as a person they would likely fit into the social environment.
I am also a former military person (Army, 14yrs) I can say that it very much depends on the individual. I have seen people that I wouldn't hire to take out the trash, and on the other hand I have seen people that could, and have, walked in to very nice jobs when they get out. Just because someone was in the military doesn't mean anything. Some of the best, and worst, IT personnel that I have worked for have been in the military. All the comments about military personnel "needing a manual" to get things done, at my current workplace I have heard more "this isn't my job" bullshit from the people that never served. My take on it is, it needs to get done so figure it out and get it done. I might not act in the way some veterans act, but counting us all out because of some duds seems like you are missing out.
Just curious, could you give examples of MOS positions? I also thought that most members of a current army would be soldiers and officers (sergeants, corporals, lieutenants, etc).
Religion: The greatest weapon of mass destruction of all time
Military and the IT field are pretty much the same thing. If you come out of it alive, you're a hero to someone.
Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.
Yea, just what IT needs, a bunch of PTSD sufferes with TBI working on security in the private sector.
The level of inefficiencies and fallback infrastructure these veterans are used to in the US Armed Forces is simply not there in the real world & if you think they haven't grown accustomed to this sort of management style, guess again, it's ingrained. Furthermore, most of these people have not worked in the private sector and do not know what it's like out there, THEY EXPECT RESULTS.
Considering many Law Enforcement types are also ex-military ( which helps explain why so many LE's think of non-LE's as the enemy, it's burned into their brain ) you get a mixed bag there as well. Some good, some bad.
The military produces the same outstanding / misfit ratios as any other. The only difference is they will take some time to adjust back to non-military ways of doing things.
Hell, all I would want in an employee is:
Level headed
Motivated
Willing to learn
Stable ( eg: not a six-month job hopper )
No ludicrous salary or benefit expectations ( No, you can't have six months vacation time and $300k / year to start )
I've met many retired military folks in IT. Most are pretty cool. They listen, they follow orders, they do what they're supposed to. Though recently a guy where I'm at, who was a captain, is a complete fraud. He doesn't listen to anyone, he uses other peoples ideas, he learns buzzwords and bs's his way into favor.
LOL... way to prove the OP's point, douchebag. The last thing anyone needs in a high-stress IT environment is somebody like you flying off the handle with a bucket full of curses and slurs. People already think you're one temper-tantrum away from shooting up the place, and storming around red-faced, shouting at folks who have a different opinion, only reinforces that belief. So, good job, soldier...
I'm not sure what the connection here is. So because you were in the military it makes you a good IT professional. No I don't think so. Use your government funds and get a real degree and join the work force in the same exact manner as everyone else. Sure there is practical application during your time serving but I do not understand how that makes you a good candidate. I had practical computer skills since I was 10. I don't see articles that say, "if you spend your entire life as a nerd on a computer you would make a good IT professional." Guess what, I'm a successful IT professional because I spent my earlier years making a piece of shit computer run Quake for me. Literally, Quake.
Article title presupposes.
That means Service Disabled Veteran Owned Small Business. 150 people and 90% of the management is ex military. My boss was the officer who was in charge of getting the Army's network infrastructure setup after invading Bagdad. They generally kick ass, and are great to work with. Awesome things that define ex-military IT types: No BS office politics. Family-friendly. Strong ethics. Work hard, play hard type personalities. Do not micromanage.
Instead of this "cog people" stereotype for military people that /. has, the reverse is more true. Most of my coworkers resent bureaucracy. There's a lot of high quality lateral-thinkers. They are used to doing whatever it takes to accomplish the mission, even when working in BS bureaucracy-strapped situations. They are focused on getting things working under pressure, while being aware that stuff hits the fan all the time and their solution needs to be prepared for that.
But better them than us.
This is why Americans are despised worldwide, and why veterans aren't actually welcomed back into the american civilian life.
But hey you have parades and all sorts of propaganda to make them seem valued to the public.
What do eccentric houses have to do with this?
Imagine a big business, like a car manufacturer. The soldiers are akin to dealership staff. They need stuff to sell, infrastructure, balance the books, research, buy material etc etc etc. The majority of the military does things like that.
Please insert gun into mouth you war criminal parasite piece of shit.
There is a reason the majority of homeless are vets. There is a reason they need special services to get the most basic jobs. There is a reason you are handled with kid gloves back in "civilian" society. You all beat your chests about how well trained and smart you are but fact remains you entered a profession where your life neither means nothing to you or your "employers". Right out of high school into a job you can't quit, where you are told what time to eat, sleep and shit. Your a violent obedient adult child, not the heroic alpha male tv would have you believe you are perceived and there is no place for you back in normal society.
"Serve" your country pfft. How anyone actually in the military cannot see that your just the strong arm of a corrupt government is stupid beyond belief. only in 'murica...
I've worked with at least 4 military personal who have come into my office as colleagues (or in one case as part of a team in one of our remote offices), Naval officer who manned guns and spotted military aircraft/boats. One tank driver who was in Iraq the first time round (so to speak) and served in Afghanistan. One in the air force who worked in air traffic control in nearly all the major European air bases.
None of them have been particularly shining examples of IT pros.
Everything needed to be documented as process, thinking on one's feet with a real live human being on the other end of the phone that *didn't* have the same experience in 'IT' as any of us (i.e. a support role for a varying degree or people with limited to massive amounts of experience), was a disaster. They struggled all of them to a man, when having to articulate something when the other person had no experience of what they were trying to do.
In fact I saw the Naval guy, throw his headset down in frustration and walk out while one of our customers was left saying hello? hello? out of the speaker phone (I had to rescue that one). When questioned he said he found it unbelievable that he had to deal with people who didn't have an understanding of the same things he did.
Of course this is anecdotal, but my personal experience is that military personal were not especially that good (or bad either - although one had real issues with his female boss that in the end saw him fired) but by golly they sure have some good stories to tell when the office times get dull :)
LOL... way to prove the OP's point, douchebag. The last thing anyone needs in a high-stress IT environment is somebody like you flying off the handle with a bucket full of curses and slurs. People already think you're one temper-tantrum away from shooting up the place, and storming around red-faced, shouting at folks who have a different opinion, only reinforces that belief. So, good job, soldier...
Yes, because life in the military is just sooo stress free and the military is full of people who cannot handle a high stress environment...amiright?
You fucking ignorant moron. All you have done is convince us all that you are so fucking clueless you wouldnt know a high stress environment if it suddenly raped you until you were left bleeding and broken in the alleyway.
Now piss off and save us from your utter fucking stupidity, douchebag.
They're not mutually exclusive. I didn't serve a killing machine. I also don't believe all military personnel make the best IT professionals.
I believe honorable military service demonstrates a work ethic and set of values that is valuable nearly anywhere, as well as technical skills if the service member held an appropriate occupational specialty. Beyond that, college education, critical thinking and creative approaches to problem solving are variables unique to each individual. You can't equate an infantry corporal to a signal officer captain. They both might be leaving the service after their first contract is up and applying for the same IT job, but they are vastly different in experience and education.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
Why would anyone want to hire someone with anger issues that can't refute a small point? Did you or did you not directly or indirectly end the lives of people that did not commit a crime? If so, you are a sanctioned murderer. Swearing and ranting does not change facts.
i think the point being that in the military you use the rage to do the dirty job at hand. In IT the rage only results in unusual stories on RMA requests and a high frequency of them
A cot who was never ever left out of its protective household cocoon. Army's purpose is all about defeating your opponent, what ever means necessary! Do you understand?!
One word needs defined as part of your story: best.
Having worked with and been managed by former military folks at a couple positions, my opinion is your statement, however politically correct and likely to get you some backing, is grossly general and false most of the time, that is very often military folks don't have the best background do IT work, what alone be the dream worker.
For specific situations military folks do well. They (generally) listen to directions and are OCD about forms and procedures. What they lack though is a well-rounded understanding of technology. Things don't always work and most of the military-produced IT folks lack the depth of knowledge that lends itself to both real troubleshooting and the ability to do a full assessment of situations. They may know procedures well, buy have no idea regarding finding a procure to misleading, poorly worded, or even wrong. And they are very crafty at pushing the envelope to get their way by exploiting loopholes in the same procedures they hold sacred.
Military folks also cart with them alot of baggage. They've been indoctrinated into believing specific technology are "safe" or "good" without any evidence of how they were assessed. They quickly form bonds with others of the same mindsets and can easily be the undoing of perfectly fine setups or the introducers of "easy to use" but horribly insecure and fault-ridden technologies for "managing" or monitoring environments. They blindly follow "stupid" many times and use their "leadership" skills to recruit folks to follow them that are even more clueless than themselves. The writeups of incidents or planning documentation provided by ex-military folks are very often written using poor examples of English and clearly without any in-depth discussion of the both the small local picture and the impact (or potential impact) of the situation on the greater IT environment. The cost to IT teams for hiring on these miliatary folks and then having to train them to think as functioning civilian IT personnel is often higher than hiring someone with zero experience that has the desire to learn then sending them to training; it's far easier to teach someone right than to undo the messy background the military teaches them is "good."
I'd rather employee a college drop-out who learned IT from creating porn sites than someone who drank the military Kool-Aide to the point of genuine though being impossible. No "rank" replaces intelligence or real-word experience. And no, over-funded playgrounds of kids playing "war" doesn't equal these folks really know anything not found on their itemized lists/procedures.
The U.S. military is not the most effective killing machine, nor they were design to be.
If one wants a effective military to defeat ISIS or North Korea, they should recruit among the inmates from the highest security prisons in the U.S.
New Economic Perspectives
The boys fight on the front line while the CEOs enjoying their high life.
Find me a single U.S. military veteran that is Jewish.
New Economic Perspectives
They are also used to be treated like crap, working LONG hours at the employers whim, and being paid next to nothing.
Only if you're a vet.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
I've been through my fair share of military types out in the field. These post military deployment types, all talk about some shit they took out of a box and plugged into some other shit from another box, and made some wild-assed communication system work. Mind you, this is specific to stuff that is rarely used in the normal civilian world, minus some fortune-50 companies that require STU's and real-time secure satcom.
The select few I've dealt with had ego's the size of Texas, and the temperament of a recently beaten pitbull. Very few are visionary, and can think outside the box. In fact, they were trained to think inside the box. That's a problem when technology changes so mindbogglingly fast.
And then onto the personality traits of the post enlisted / post enlisted officer de-jour prince and princesses that seem to think non military folks owe them something.. It's awfully hard to find a good post military IT type without the "I'm going to shoot you in the face" sort of attitude when they don't get their way.
The best IT staff just rise to to top, learn as they go and build on years of experience.
Where one is previously employed has no bearing on what one is capable of. Unless a recruiter uses certifications as a crutch to sell some skill.
*ahem certifications* that's another crock of shit.
Well, of course I am !
--Posted anonymously in camouflage
You'd be serving everyone in that country. But yet you sit here in peace and comfort enjoying that luxury because of those that do. The entire world would all be under Communism or the Nazi party right now if it was not for various countries having a military. The rich and money would be far more concentrated than it is now. You don't believe that though.
I'm not sure I entirely understand what this article is about; I mean, I get it at face value that the author suggests that the US military should be a prime training ground for IT professionals because of the experience they get, but that is not, and never has been, the issue with hiring ex-military.
The issue is helping ex-military make the transition to civilian life and helping them be "presentable" for civilian employers. Regardless of what branch, what they actually did in the military, or if they ever saw combat, the US military teaches a specific type of discipline, specific methods of doing things, and specific protocol which don't really translate well to the real world. The indoctrination* tends to leave the individuals in a mindset that doesn't mesh well with civilian life and civilian employers. An example from my personal life was a friend who worked as a mechanic during his service; he undoubtedly was a skilled mechanic, and could fix just about any thing that had a motor on it. However, he had no clue how to properly communicate his skills in a way that a civilian could understand. Instead of describing his daily maintenance routine, he listed out all the different models of military vehicles he had worked on, the various military courses he had completed, the few honors he gathered, and then tried to figure out why he couldn't get an interview.
I would argue that even if they are getting experience with IT and digesting it to the degree the author is suggesting, it's not really palatable to most employers because the non-military learning curve is still ridiculously high, and after the 4 or 8 years of service (I'm afraid I'm not sure how long a standard contract is), it must be hard for ex-military to break those habits.
*I use indoctrination here with no negative connotations, it's just inundating one's self in the culture and methods of a particular institution, just as one might become indoctrinated to the practices of a business or to a particular group or city, etc.
Most states do not recognize military EMT certificates because, I shit you not, the military training is not strong enough of geriatric diabetics. Since it is not recognized, to get a state EMT license, you have to complete the entire EMT course, just like you were right out of high school. In essence, those states are saying "fuck you, your experience is irrelevant". Since the GI Bill benefits expire, it's much better to say "fuck you too" to the state and go get a bachelor (or masters degree) in something else rather than starting right back at the beginning career-wise.
1: Nobody can tell you to "kill people". It's not a legal order and you're REQUIRED to disobey it if someone tries to issue it. Maybe if you knew what you were talking about.
2: Do soldiers put themselves in a position where it may be required? Yes. Does that make them a murderer? No. No more than a police officer. No more than a federal marshal. Again, the primary job of a soldier isn't to kill people.
3: In other words, you'll complain, but you won't try to make the world a better place. Sorry, you're a fucking leech then. And your opinion has exactly ZERO value. Go cry about how evil and unfair the world is to someone who cares.
What? Nobody gives a shit about your opinion? Tough.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
You can equate the experience of a soldier calculating the mortar trajectory with a handheld computer of some sort, to the experience in managing a virtual infrastructure. In the same way of thinking, since I am driving a car, I should be no problem getting employment as an engineer in automotive industry, overseeing the design and manufacturing. Right ? Hold on a second. I can barely change a tire. That is why I pay AAA. I have no mechanical aptitude what-so-ever. How can you expect anyone who knows how to hold a computer and punch few letters and numbers into it to be an IT expert after their service time ? This is the same mentality, who SIC'ed the ex-military people in the ranks of IT management and their thinking was, they decide fast under pressure. Yeah ! I can decide fast too, if you don't mind 50% of those decisions to be on the wrong side. Don't get me wrong. I support the armed forces and contribute money to causes supporting veterans regularly, but assuming all of those people will translate into IT because of their past experience in the armed forces is putting too much stock into a label, without actually hearing what is coming out of ones mouth. Jeeez...
__________
The more I know people, the more I love animals
You're thinking "rank", which is Private, Private First Class, Corporal, Sergeant (all enlisted) Lieutenant, Major, Colonel (all commissioned)).
An MOS is your actual occupational specialty.
Here's a list of MOS'es.
http://www.usarec.army.mil/hq/warrant/WOgeninfo_enlmos.shtml
Things like medic, truck driver, engineer, mechanic, pilot, etc, etc.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
And then there's mental defectives such as yourself who can't determine the difference between simple frustration and homicidal rage and automatically assume the latter due to the fact that I've had training with pistols, rifles, grenades, squad weaponry and anti-armor weaponry. People who are so oblivious they can't even comprehend simple things, such as my personal choice NOT to own weapons now that I'm a civilian.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
But better them than us.
This is why Americans are despised worldwide, and why veterans aren't actually welcomed back into the american civilian life.
But hey you have parades and all sorts of propaganda to make them seem valued to the public.
Sorry, but when I was a soldier, if someone was trying to kill me, it was my job to stop them from doing so. Unfortunately, in times of war, the final tool for doing this is the Patton Solution (Make the other dumb bastard die for HIS country).
If that makes people abroad, or at home, hate me and my fellow soldiers, that's THEIR problem. If they're so damn opposed to war, they needed to work harder to keep us from becoming embroiled in one. But it's always easier to bitch about how bad the country/world is. Actually FIXING the world is MUCH more difficult. Made more-so by intolerant blowhards who think that a choice of career in the military means someone is automatically a psychopath.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Why would anyone want to hire someone with anger issues that can't refute a small point? Did you or did you not directly or indirectly end the lives of people that did not commit a crime? If so, you are a sanctioned murderer. Swearing and ranting does not change facts.
Did I or did I not directly or indirectly end lives?
Nope.
I was a medic. And I was lucky enough to have never killed anyone. Or even wounded anyone.
And killing armed and actively hostile enemy combatants in a war IS NOT murder! If you don't understand the difference, you don't know what you're talking about.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Some people are great some are terrible, I worked I.T. for the fed where former military got extra points on the test. At the time I thought it was crap because half the people on the 30 list had 0 experience but made it due to their military status. In retrospect they got it right since we were only interviewing 3 and you ended up with qualified people who could put up with BS better than me. They were more than happy to fill out 100 excel sheets because thats what they were told rather than putting it in the database. They were perfectly capable of putting it in the database but the requirement was put it in 100 excel sheets because thats what those who are appointed want. Most civilians (myself included) don't have that kind of patients. I would certainly hire a military guy over a civilian if the project was going to require the patients for red tape. Otherwise i don't think it matters.
If we wanted to be "the most effective killing machine"?
We wouldn't be dropping high explosives.
We'd be dropping nukes.
Not chucking salvoes from the Arleigh Burke.
We SURE as hell wouldn't be putting boots on the ground!
Again, the military objective is to limit use of force to military targets and avoid civilian casualties/targets.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
i work for the military as a civilian in a IT-centric organization. for every 20 "IT Specialists" there is ONE that can do their job well and grow in it with proper nurture. the rest are monkeys that do not appear to have the capability to think critically and are in IT roles either because they wanted to be ("that looks cool" is sufficient) or scored highly on their ASVAB. they do the job they were trained to do and thats about it (even those SATCOM people).
We need leaders in IT, not followers. Everyone I know from high school who joined the military was a marginal student at best, with a decided lack of intellectual curiosity. Plus a lot of them were pushy assholes. No thanks.
Remember kids, if you're not paying for the service, YOU ARE THE PRODUCT THAT IS BEING SOLD.
Just curious, could you give examples of MOS positions? I also thought that most members of a current army would be soldiers and officers (sergeants, corporals, lieutenants, etc).
All members of the US Army are called soldiers, and have ranks including the examples you listed. All soldiers are trained in basic combat infantry tasks, but Chaplains (MOS 56A) are not authorized to carry a weapon.
The categories from GoArmy.com includes 25 Combat MOS's, but the Wikipedia page has several more. The US Army MOS list on Wikipedia is quite accurate and lists over 530.
http://www.goarmy.com/careers-and-jobs/browse-career-and-job-categories.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Army_careers
>And killing armed and actively hostile enemy combatants in a war IS NOT murder!
Fundamentally, murder is killing people without a sufficiently good reason.
Let's say you break into a home with the intent of kidnapping the children to be used as sex slaves. But the mom tries to shoot you to prevent you from kidnapping her children. So you shoot and kill her before she can shoot you. That's not self defense. It's murder.
So with something like the war in Iraq, it's not just about whether you found yourself in a kill or be killed situation. It's also about whether why you were in that situation in the first place. If the war in Iraq was fundamentally a war of aggression waged to allow Dick Cheney's corporate cronies to make a few extra bucks exploiting Iraq then you're very close to being either a murderer or an accessory to murder. On the other hand, if the USA war on Iraq was the only possible way to prevent Saddam Hussein from successfully invading and defeating the USA militarily then you're a hero who defended America's freedom.
So "murder" is whatever the hell you feel like defining as murder?
Uh. No. That don't fly.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Good military people (and I'm not one) aren't just rule-followers -- they're good at seeing where they fit in a bigger picture, something that really is lacking in a lot of folks' skill sets.
Translation: good military people will break the law to put you in your place, and make sure you fit into their idea of a "bigger picture."
Speak from experience. Manipulation and lying is ok, and the "big picture" is just slang for "benefits me."
If you did not lie and manipulate enough, or bothered to tell the truth, that is your own fault, you have no one else to blame for your shortcomings and missing out on the "big picture."
No thanks.
you ignorant little leech on the ass of my country?
Actually, it is not your country.
Actually, rights are granted from God, and the whole idea of the U.S. is the Constitution limits powers of the government. It does not grant people rights. You cannot grant people rights.
You cannot grant people admittance into "your country" or not.
I am afraid, you are the ignorant little leech. God disagrees with you, and the Constitution disagrees with you.
It is not your country.
Find some way to serve this country
FUCK OFF. That is what totalitarian countries do. Free people have no reason to serve you or "your" country. They can choose to, or they can freely chose not to. They are free to leave. They are free to stay.
They have no obligation to "serve" you.
Nor does anyone owe you a living, you leech.
Why do you hate the United States of America so much, you would lower "your" country to communism and totalitarianism?
Whatever, but you are in the wrong place for that dude.
So "murder" is whatever the hell you feel like defining as murder?
In a certain sense, yes, each person has to form their own opinion of right and wrong - though ideally not entirely going it alone without influence from others. And, in a democracy, the goal is to write the relevant laws so that they reflect what the people believe are sufficiently good reasons for killing people. Of course, in practice "the people" don't always agree - and sometimes the majority even eventually turn out to be wrong.
You could try to go for logical purity and argue that murder is killing intentionally killing innocent people. And sometimes a military will mess up and bomb the wrong village. But, more often, a military will intentionally bomb a village containing innocent people knowing that some of those innocent people will be killed - because bombing the village will also kill some of the enemy - which is seen as a sufficiently good reason. For example, the USA intentionally bombed France during WWII - killing innocent French people - but most people didn't see that as murder.
"The USA intentionally bombed France during WWII"
And what were the targets? Were they AIMING for hospitals? Were they TRYING to hit schools?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_bombing_during_World_War_II#Bombing_in_France
Precision bombing. Not carpet bombing.
No, they weren't very precise. And there were still occasional carpet-bombing runs. And yes, civilians were still killed as collateral damage. But there was no intent to go out and simply slaughter civilians.
All you're doing with your slanted arguments is proving just how little you actually know/understand.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
"Ignorant little leech on the ass of my country?"
Yeah. That's pretty much what I'd call someone who bitches about things but doesn't even have any ideas about what to do to actually make things "better". Let alone the will to try and be participatory so they can implement such things.
"Actually, it is not your country."
Actually yeah it is. Not in the possessive sense as in "I own this". My as in "I choose to associate myself with this".
And by serving the country I HAVE had a hand in granting (and protecting) people's rights. Maybe not on a firsthand basis, by my service, and the service of the millions of men and women over the last 200+ years have made it possible to claim "your" rights AS "YOUR" RIGHTS.
Please, TRY to tell me I'm wrong.
"FUCK OFF. That is what totalitarian countries do. Free people have no reason to serve you or "your" country. They can choose to, or they can freely chose not to. They are free to leave. They are free to stay."
And they're free to bitch. Something the service of millions has guaranteed. But, I'm also free to tell useless morons like this to, in your words "Fuck off".
But they're essentially bitching with no real audience. Because they do have any sense of responsibility. And think that this country OWES them in some way and should just spontaneously DO SOMETHING about their unconstructive criticisms. Instead of being constructive and trying to change the world FOR THE BETTER, THEMSELVES.
"They have no obligation to "serve" you."
I never said "serve me".
I said DO something instead of just bitching uselessly. Constructive criticism.
"Nor does anyone owe you a living, you leech"
Uh. I think your reading comprehension is flawed. Nowhere did I ever say anyone OWED me a living.
"Why do you hate the United States of America so much, you would lower "your" country to communism and totalitarianism?"
Okay, now I *KNOW* your reading comprehension is flawed. This has nothing to do with communism or totalitarianism. The fact that you THINK (and I'm using the term loosely) it does, shows just how far off-base you are. I suggested that some whiny little jackass actually stop bitching about the world being a shitty place and actually DO something with their life to MAKE IT BETTER.
"Whatever, but you are in the wrong place for that dude."
If you think I'm writing from Outer Bumfuckistan, yeah. You might be right.
But I'm writing this from the United States.
You don't like what I have to say? TOUGH!
You don't like my ideology? TOUGH!
You want respect? To NOT be talked down to like the know-nothing piece of crap you are? EARN IT!
You want the world to be a better place? WORK FOR IT!
Don't like the fact that you might have to get your hands dirty to make the world a better place? TOUGH!
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Become a politician and get elected to Congress? No, sorry, it's precisely because of the delusional fanatics in Congress that we have so much armed conflict and deployment of soldiers into combat. Because, you know, not getting involved in conflicts that don't really involve us (or creating them, so they inherently involve us) is appeasement. *sigh*
Having said that, yea, I can understand the need for a military and that the US's role as a de facto police for the world has probably resulted in overall less armed conflict than would have been otherwise. But, that doesn't begin to justify all the conflicts that the US has taken part in. That's my biggest issue with the US's use of its military.
But is this the fault of the millions of enlisted and commissioned service men and women?
Does it warrant labeling them, en masse, as murderers?
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
I am an Army vet who has successfully transitioned to fairly elite IT position in the realm of SATCOM. I have been pretty successful in the private sector, I was moderately successful in military. Let me start by saying there are a lot of vets who are lazy and feel entitled. They want an easy job where they make six figure salaries and do nothing. They will fail and live out their days as a GS-9 complaining about the unfair world. The vets who are successful are the ones who work hard, continually challenge themselves, and learn from their mistakes.
Also remember that when you have a real-world tech job, you are expected to perform that job 40 hours a week. In the Army you have a specialization, but you only spend a small amount of time doing that. Much of your time is spent doing things that are not technical: weapon ranges, soldier skills, inventories, checking vehicles, paperwork, ect. The one exception is when a Soldier is deployed, then they get to focus on their specialization. I considered myself pretty good at SATCOM in general, and then I got my first job in the private sector. That was the moment I realized I didn't know as much as I thought I did.
Another issue is that the more senior you get, the less you get to do technical things. As a mid level enlisted person, much of my time was dedicated to paperwork, stupid Soldier issues*, evaluations, baby sitting, shift schedules, planning non technical training, ect.
*Stupid Soldier Issue examples: Why is your wife calling the battalion commander? What do you mean you spent all you money and can't afford to pay your bills?
I must admit that I would not be where I am today if it were not for the Army. It gave me a good base level of knowledge, and I had some pretty crazy times with some pretty awesome Soldiers. If I had it to do over, I would have went straight to college.
The entire world would all be under Communism or the Nazi party right now if it was not for various countries having a military.
The entire world is under Communism. The Nazi party spread because of their military. You are a fucking moron and a tool.
Communism == the merge of the private and public sectors. Look at education, the U.S. prison system, the NSA (engaged in economic espionage to boot), the list goes on and on. Your tax dollars at work.
Eternal vigilance you fucking moron.
Why is this a shock? Who else trains people these days?
It's been suggested for years that the military produce the best pilots, the best mechanics and a pile of other roles. Why not IT technicians? After all, they don't expect to employ instant experts and take on the best bullshitter at an interview, they take on people who look like they may be able to do a job and dedicate the effort into making sure they have an expert after a while.
People who go into the military with the idea that they want to meet interesting people AND KILL them usually get weeded out in basic training/boot camp. If not, they get weeded out in AIT (occupational training). People like that simply aren't stable enough to get through training in the modern army.
Nobody else really goes into the military with the notion that they want to go out and kill people.
That is not true. Well, not entirely true even if for the most part it is true.
Ever been near the 18th Airborne? Yeah, those guys are killers. They are almost pure animals. They built a special compound on Camp Buehring (Udairi) for them to transfer into Iraq. That compound had barbed wire leaning in as well as out. Why in? To keep those monsters from escaping and causing trouble for all of the other units heading up to Iraq.
18th Airborne is not entirely unique in this matter either. That is why I say what you say is untrue.
Some Marines join so they can kill... but the Marines have a whole different set of discipline. They never had to be segregated. Neither did the 82nd Airborne.
"Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
In the military you fix shit while in the shit and can't sleep till your done. Same with any good IT person.
but at least when it comes to Army IT guys, anyone that went to school after 2005 is a coin-toss.
The dumbing down of specialist fields has been ongoing as the military has switched from custom hardware to COTS (Common/Commercial Off The Shelf) systems. This really accelerated in 2003 and the transformation was almost complete by 2005. Troubleshooting down to the component level and resoldering circuit boards was standard procedure in the old days. Soldiers had to really understand how their systems worked and how they interacted with other things. As the equipment has gotten smarter, the requirements for the soldier have decreased.
I watched the knowledge base drain away while I was in the military. I spent my final three years as an instructor/subject-matter-expert (Brigade level) for all things IT and satellite communications. Every year, the students were less and less prepared for the training. This applied especially to my students from a communications career field. This was expected when it came to my students from non-IT careers, but in the end, the students that should have been the most well prepared for my classes did no better that those that had never seen a satellite dish before.
I spent an additional two years as a contractor in Afghanistan. I did everything from convoys out to remote FOBs to troubleshoot and repair systems, to training, to theater wide Tier-3/Engineering Level satellite support. I worked with hundreds of contractors at all levels and over 95% of them were veterans. The quality of work/knowledge level was a complete crapshoot. There were many that I dealt with that should have been fired or at least not had their contract renewed. One of them was my boss(gross negligence/mismanagement), the other was a CCNP that couldn't even create a basic NAT configuration for a 2800 series router(fired for reasons unrelated to his lack of technical competence). There were the occasional superstars (my replacement boss). There was everything in between.
In the end, I honestly see very few advantages to hiring veterans other than that they have a higher chance of being on time/early than a non-veteran. I see a distinct disadvantage in hiring anyone that was a First Sergeant or Sergeant Major(Don't worry, the ones you need to worry about will let you know they were one). Those are the ones most likely to have internalized the military and demand that those around them do the same.
That's just Nervals' lobster reminding you that the military industrial complex is taking over all the server farms. These 'retired' people have your liberties to safeguard. Bend over!
After transitioning from the military to college to a position in the private sector, the only thing that I struggle with is what I perceive to be a lack of team cohesion. I am used to a lot more. That isn't to say that my team is non-functioning, its just that there is a lot tighter bond and reliance on good communication. Its gotten better now that I'm a year in, but I miss the tight camaraderie of my fire team.
I can imagine that the "jack of all trades" good sysadmins need to be is a great fit for veterans.
I'm a veteran. USAF 1992-1996. The government is taking our children and sending them half way around the world to kill people when it might make a few extra bucks for the oligarchs. There are lawful kill orders. There are unlawful kill orders. Both are carried out all day every day. No one signs up for infantry and is then surprised that it might mean shooting at people. NO ONE. I'm a veteran who tried to make the world a better place. It is much worse now. So I complain. The system is a fucking joke. You couldn't possibly be a bigger cunt.
No. But at the same time, to enlist into an organization that one knows spends more of its time engaged in needless wars involved the strategic bombing of installations or "targets" that kill as many or more innocent civilians as "bad people"--as I and others are unwilling to accept the convenient reclassification by Obama and others of all males of appropriate age as militants--makes me question one's moral commitment to peace and the preservation of life. It's the same, to me, as choosing to go on a multi-year drinking binge and to ignore the many people who are harmed along the way.
Which nicely positions them to compete with HB-1 imports.
The military is made up of people of all types, from all different backgrounds, from all different education and experience levels. I have anecdotal stories that would support both sides of this question, and I think it just boils down to the person, and not weather they're ex-military or not. In general, the ones I knew while I was in the military who were into IT outside of the military went on to have big careers in IT. I knew a few grunts who got out after the recent conflicts, and decided they wanted an IT career because they played lots of video games, and may have built a gaming PC. Even with tech school training, their skills were usually lacking. Same works for the non-military people I know.
So, if the US did not have a military then I was right?
The Nazi and communist parties were only stopped because of the others with a bigger military. That is WHYmilitaries are required. Human beings are running the show. There is ALWAYS many of them that want to rule the world and many of which get in a position to have a realistic chance of actually succeeding. You need to accept reality, not your dream world. I'm sorry you can not see the difference in the government the US has compared to the ones mentioned above. You can't possibly think they are the same right now do you? Your exact writings above would get you killed in some countries in the world right now. Sit back in comfort tonight and enjoy that not happening to you because of your military past and present and your government.
It'll save on pension payments, I suppose.
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
You have both a rank and an MOS (Military Occupational Specialty). Both of them differ in terminology between the different services, although the ranks all correspond to the same pay grades. For instance, a Sergeant First Class in the Army, a Gunnery Sergeant in the Marines, and a Chief Petty Officer in the Navy are all pay grade E-7 (Enlisted 7). In some cases it can be confusing, as a Captain in the Army, Air Force, and Marines is an Officer in pay grade O-3, but a Navy Captain is pay grade O-6. Your MOS is whatever you've been formal trained/rated/etc in. For instance, in the Army each MOS had a two digit number and an alphanumeric letter, such as 11B for standard infantry. The number referenced what the overall group was, such as Infantry, Combat Engineer, Air Defense, Mechanic, Communications, Intelligence, Medical, etc. The letter would be the sub-specialization within that group, such as Wheeled Vehicle Mechanic vs Tracked Vehicle Mechanic, Human Intelligence vs Signals Intelligence, Armor vs Cav Scout, and so forth. Some had more than others, and sometimes old ones were merged or retired or reassigned. For instance, Intelligence used to have 3 different series, 96/97/98, but was merged into the 35 series, and Electronic Intelligence Analysts (98K) and Signals Intelligence Analysts (98C) were merged into 35N. Regardless of what your MOS is, you will also have a rank if you're a uniformed soldier, so that IT Specialist E-5 is a sergeant, is paid as a sergeant, although there are special incentive and duty pay options, even if those don't necessarily keep pace with civilian equivalents. Also, if your MOS is in high demand, there are options for large bonuses each time you re-enlist.