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Why Military Personnel Make the Best IT Pros
Nerval's Lobster writes Every year, approximately 250,000 military personnel leave the service to return to civilian life. When the home front beckons, many will be looking to become IT professionals, a role that, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, is among the fastest growing jobs in the country. How their field skills will translate to the back office is something to ponder. With the advent of virtualization, mobile, and the cloud, tech undergoes rapid changes, as do the skill sets needed to succeed. That said, the nature of today's military—always on the go, and heavily reliant on virtual solutions—may actually be the perfect training ground for IT. Consider that many war-fighters already are IT technicians: They need to be skilled in data management, mobile solutions, security, the ability to fix problems as they arise onsite, and more. Military personnel used to working with everything from SATCOM terminals to iPads are ideally suited for handling these issues; many have successfully managed wireless endpoints, networks, and security while in the field. Should programs that focus on placing former military personnel in civilian jobs focus even more on getting them into IT roles?
In my field (systems engineering,) discipline, troubleshooting skills and attention to detail are pretty critical. I would think an ex-military person would be the ideal antidote to the cowboy sysadmins you see at a lot of places. Those guys get a lot done, but can cause a lot of damage by not thinking through things to their full conclusion. Good military people (and I'm not one) aren't just rule-followers -- they're good at seeing where they fit in a bigger picture, something that really is lacking in a lot of folks' skill sets.
Former military person seeking IT job.
...than most people who haven't served in the military.
In the military there are no excuses for failure, yes - everyone can get it wrong, but if you're a military man...you don't complain, you get it DONE!
That attitude alone solves a LOT of problems. I've been working in the IT Sector for a LONG time and no matter what field you're in, I could spot a former military man MILES away, because they have a positive go-getter attitude, and I've yet to ever hear an long boring attitude related discussion about an issue with such a man, they listen - and work until the problems are solved.
I'd hire people like that in a heartbeat!
What this world is coming to - is for you and me to decide.
I haven't had good luck with ex-military I.T. people. They want a manual that they can follow step-by-step for every little thing. "Figure it out" is not something they want to hear.
For every former-military IT-pro that's a true expert in their field (of whom I've worked with a couple) there's a former-military IT-pro that was trained on one very specific system and cannot handle even basic common-knowledge tasks.
I worked with someone that was former-military that started on the helpdesk like most people in the organization, and workorders were created with descriptions like, "Computer does not start." This description meant everything from the computer wouldn't power on to the user couldn't remember their password to log-in.
I worked with someone else that was a communications cabling specialist that probably forgot more about cabling than I ever knew, and could deal with phones, copper ethernet, and fiber ethernet without batting an eye. So at least there's that.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
When nerds are cool, only jocks will be nerds
Just another second banana
I work with several IT guys that are former military. They're good guys and work hard but not one of them is an actual geek... If it isn't something they're trained in they just don't do very well. Small sample size in (my office) but I don't see it.
I served in the Navy and trained as a cryptolinguist (Mandarin Chinese), though after my language training I decided military life wasn't for me and left for academia. I've kept in touch with a lot of my former service members who stayed in for their whole 4-year or 6-year enlistment, and it amazed me to see how almost none of them were able to transition to similar employment in the civilian world. On the language side, the sort of texts they were working with were limited and not at all like the business communications and government forms that drive the civilian translation market. On the technology-using side, they may have been whizbang operators of specialist military software, but they didn't get more experience in e.g. Office than anyone else out there. Consequently, my peers either entered whole different fields (one Chinese linguist became a marriage counselor) or entered IT only after doing a whole 4-year university degree in the civilian world to make up for what they lacked.
The military might train you to do things, but they might not compare to what the civilian market wants. And sure, military people have a reputation for working under pressure and learning new skills, but in this day and age ever fewer civilian employers have the patience to keep paying you while they wait for you to learn new tricks.
By the same definition, so are every child in the country, always on the edge trying to make their parents desperate by being cutting edge. Uses plenty of software and tech. It would seem "IT" is the new buz word of the employment sector ?
I don't want to discriminate about IT, but there is no worth creation in IT. It is merely a support job like any other, and by using the right argument, you should be able to make a case that former military personnel would make the best mechanics. Yet, being a mechanic would probably not make the headline on /. (for whatever /. has become)
A lot of IT positions are with the federal government, and many military members parting from service already possess the security clearances required for those positions. It's often cheaper to train someone that already possess a security clearance to be an IT professional than it is to get an IT professional their security clearance.
Sig withheld to protect the innocent.
I am in the military and it is hard to say how I compare to civilians since I haven't had an IT job on the civilian side yet (I did work in manufacturing before I joined). However I can say that in the few short years that I have been in I have worked on a plethora of systems. Possibly more than I ever could have with a civilian job. Furthermore the military can be very demanding and anyone who has been in can tell you that. Also everything you do someone’s life depends on it so it is more stressful than anything I had to do as a civilian. So those few things right there are probably why companies like to hire veterans. Especially when you think about the fact that we have great experience, work like mules, and can handle stress far easier than most of our civilian counter parts.
Because they just say "yes sir" to everything their boss asks them to do
We've tried hiring ex-military, and it very, very rarely works. If somebody's fresh out of the military, then they're not even considered. If they're not completely brain dead, then they tend to have an attitude of needing everything to be done for them.
I'm assuming that a vet can handle work stress better. Having the network down isn't nearly as big a deal as being shot at.
It's kind of true. My job in Army was SATCOM, got out almost 4 years ago, about to finish Bachelor's in CS early next year. SATCOM was pretty much IT in the army. Imaging computers, setting up and maintaining network, running cables, troubleshooting software/hardware, etc. Once I got out I did a few years part time in IT while going to college.
I have to say that all training in the army was kind of half@$$ed. Impossible to fail, short, and not particularly relevant. At least when I went through it around 2003. The actual on the job experience differed significantly from training. Arrive at location, there's either nothing set up, or something that's about to leave with the group you are replacing. Often had to set up 10-50 users from scratch on generator power. Luckily there always seemed to be people around that knew what they were doing, so most of the relevant training was on the job. Monkey see, monkey do. Which is probably the best kind, since classroom can be too abstract. Civilian contractors were always reachable in case we got stuck. There was none of that cutthroat stuff that you might see in business, everyone actually tried to pass on what they knew and the whole organization was oriented towards developing new specialists.
That said, there were plenty of opportunities to fade into the background and pretty much learn nothing. So not everyone was on the same level. The ones that put in the effort got promoted quickly, the ones that coasted along stayed at the same level much longer. No magic there, same as anywhere else.
250,000 per year seems a bit high. Signal core isn't that big, at least active duty. Reservists were somewhat less often as good at their jobs as regular army on average, excluding those that worked in same field at home. Which wasn't that that common. Seemed like a lot of reservists did something totally different for a living. Outside of signal we'd meet plenty of people that didn't even know how to turn on a computer, but I guess that's how a lot of people in IT feel. So if they mean a total of 250k people get out every year, much fewer have military experience in IT.
come out of the military.
I think that's a great idea, for a lot of reason. But... I thought you had to live in a hovel on the other side of the world to get a job in IT in the US. I don't see US companies suddenly deciding to reverse that tendency and hire locals as regular employees instead. Would be great if they did, though.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
I like how you equate everyone in the government with a specific agency withing the government. Its... cute. simple, ignorant, and not too bright, but also cute.
" "creative problem solving" is not exactly a skill set that is developed in the military"
That couldn't be further way from the truth.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
so government accessories to murder aka accomplices.
As former military, can I just please have you BLOW ME you ignorant little leech on the ass of my country?
People who go into the military with the idea that they want to meet interesting people AND KILL them usually get weeded out in basic training/boot camp. If not, they get weeded out in AIT (occupational training). People like that simply aren't stable enough to get through training in the modern army.
Nobody else really goes into the military with the notion that they want to go out and kill people.
The military's a place to serve one's country, get some occupational training, and rack up money for college. Maybe even find a lifetime career.
There are over 1.4 million people on Active Duty with another million in Ready Reserve (includes National Guard).
The vast MAJORITY of those troops are in military occupational specialties (MOS) that are NOT front-line combat (infantry).
Nobody wants to have to be out there killing people. That usually means that pretty much every other option for negotiation (other than outright appeasement, and Vichy showed us how well THAT went over), has pretty much FAILED. And, even then, the objective of warfare by modern doctrine is NOT about body count. It's about removing the tools and resources necessary to successfully wage warfare against us.
Does that mean we, eventually, wind up killing people?
Yep!
But better them than us.
If YOU, in particular, don't happen to like it, TOUGH FUCKING SHIT. Find some way to serve this country that minimizes the future need for armed conflict and deployment of soldiers into combat that doesn't involve bending and spreading for a bunch of delusional fanatics. I can GUARANTEE you that the very FIRST people stepping up to thank you for your contributions will be the people you've just put out of a job.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
(former Navy nuc operator here) Although the direct technical skills from my time really don't apply. The idea of the "block diagram level" knowledge in your mind and the basic troubleshooting process instlled in me there in my training has served me VERY well over the course of my IT career. Not to mention the broad (not necessarily deep) mechanical system knowledge of things like power, HVAC, emergency generators, UPSs, etc. Data center infrastructure has a lot of similarity (at a smaller scale) to safety systems at a nuc plant. Yeah, not broad based the way the article says, but for my more specific part it worked for me!
Perfect for the greedy CEOs of tech companies
because any other job is really different ? You just don't do it with bullet, but try hard to make the next guy a homeless so that you can thrive. You won't succeed in a capitalist world if you are not ready to leave, figuratively, some cadaver along the road... might it just be a co-worker for a higher-paying job you are competing to get...
I worked in the communications field in the Marines, a couple of my peers would do quite well in civilian IT fields. (I personally transitioned just fine) However a large number of them would absolutely suck at it. A good portion of that stems from the fact that they dont like the field. Take a military member who has some experience with troubleshooting, thinking under preasure, and doesnt mind IT, sure they will be a decent worker in the civilian field. But there isnt anything new or interesting about that statement.
let me guess... how about in your parent's basement, playing with your network of old [almost free] Sparcs, HPPA and VAX, running all kind of services, because that's utterly fun to do ?
If you need "training" for a job, you probably should continue to look for your passion... or you are just a worthless commute zombie doing it for the money.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I've had mixed results with this. I have worked with several Marines in the past and all were decent as basic techs. Most of them went into management or non-technical areas in IT and another quit to become a cop. One of my current coworkers was a Navy tech and she is pretty darn good as well. On the other hand, I've worked with two people who came from IT in the Air Force and they are two of the worst techs I have worked with, unable to keep composure under the slightest amount of pressure. I've wondered if that is a result of that branch's culture.
Many military IT admins leave the service and attempt to find a job in the same field but they have two major hurdles.
1. The same job they were doing in the military requires a 4 year degree in the private sector.
This is an issue time and again with not having a degree. There is plenty of debate around here about whether a 4 year degree is really beneficial to everyone. However, you cannot debate the minimum requirements for a DoD contractor position. I have seen plenty of people kicked out of a job that they were good at because the requirements changed and they don't qualify for their own job. This issue is exacerbated by predatory for-profit technical colleges who are preying on those same technicians in order to claim their GI bill $$.
2. Education does matter when it comes to writing skills.
The biggest thing that is lacking for enlisted IT admins is the ability to solve problems in a new way and document the resolution. In the military everything has rules and you are not allowed to write the rules yourself. In private industry everyone is responsible for helping to write the rules for their own position and ensure that the existing processes stay updated. Prior service personnel tend to be very bad at this part of the job and require extensive training in professional writing.
The military's a place to serve one's country, get some occupational training, and rack up money for college. Maybe even find a lifetime career.
and you know.. kill people if they're told to
Nobody wants to have to be out there killing people. That usually means that pretty much every other option for negotiation
And yet they put them selves in a position where it may be required. And lol yes america only wields its military might if its absolutely necessary. I'm not even going to address that just lol
If YOU, in particular, don't happen to like it, TOUGH FUCKING SHIT. Find some way to serve this country that minimizes the future need for armed conflict and deployment of soldiers into combat that doesn't involve bending and spreading for a bunch of delusional fanatics. I can GUARANTEE you that the very FIRST people stepping up to thank you for your contributions will be the people you've just put out of a job.
I don't want to serve my country aka the desires of the rich elite. Nor do i want any thanks from the sheep that do their dirty work. Perhaps if america didn't just use the world 'democratizing' for an excuse to conquer things of financial gain.
Every year, approximately 250,000 cats leave the house to enter human life. When the job market beckons, many will be looking to become IT professionals, a role that, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, is among the fastest growing jobs in the country. How their field skills will translate to the office is something to ponder. With the advent of virtualization, mobile, and the cloud, tech undergoes rapid changes, as do the skill sets needed to succeed. That said, the nature of today's cats—always on the go, and able to press buttons—may actually be the perfect training ground for IT. Consider that many cats are already are IT technicians: They need to be skilled in sitting, metabolic functions, hand eye coordination, security, the ability to fix problems as they arise onsite, and more. and more. and more! Cats are used to working with everything from strings to iPads. Should programs that focus on placing cats in human jobs focus even more on getting them into IT roles?
X
I am a former military IT person. I started out as a SATCOM operator and was able to get my hands on every system down the line that had traffic leaving through my gateway by the end of my time. It was definately a varied experience and if you could learn a system you could administer it IF your warrant officer and SIGO would let you. They of course would not if you proved to be an idiot. Boy, trust me, we had some very special idiots. I learned how to splice fiber and make all sorts of cables. I learned how to employ and what the limitations of various wireless transmission systems were. I have operated all sorts of satellite teminals from 30 meter earth terminals to tiny vsats and ship born platforms. I have installed and maintained large networks and set up VOiP and monitoring services. Some of the best admins I have ever met were fantastic IT pros in the military. They still are in the civilian sector now. As for the geek culture, we would set up LAN parties and play multiplayer combat simulation shooters in countries where there was armed conflict. I have to say that many of the people I have known and worked with in the civilian world may know a webserver really well but not have a clue when it comes to routing and switching. Being in the military has really given me a good perspective on the internet piece by piece as I have actually had my hands in just about every telecommunications tier from the originating host sending a GET request to the edge of the AS.
Don't you have some Christians to kill or some ISIS thugs to prop up somewhere?
Systems are delivered ready-to-use, and the military personnel are there to follow the book to keep them running
Not even close. Former Marine, and current defense contractor here. DoD systems need constant work, and work-arounds. Finding ways to get things done, despite the systems provided, is part of daily military life.
Here's a practical example. Many people would be surprised at the number of changes being made to the V-22 Osprey tiltrotor aircraft that are not coming from degreed engineers but rather from a corporal or sergeant who works on the aircraft. Boeing is routinely sending engineers out to get feedback and suggestions the people who fly and maintain these new and incredibly complicated machines.
And to be honest, this is not really something new. There are similar stories going back to the 50s and probably back to the dawn of military aviation. Its not specific to aviation either. Another famous example is the "teeth" added to tanks during the Normandy campaign of WW2. The tanks were getting stuck in the thick hedgerows, some "hillbilly" suggests putting saw teeth on the tank and some sergeant grabs a welding torch a starts cutting up some angle iron from German anti-tank obstacles and then welding the result onto some tanks. It worked brilliantly.
This just in, some individuals are better suited to some situations than others.
I don't think that anyone had decided that they wouldn't hire ex-military with relevant experience because of where they acquired it. Most organizations require some adjustment from their staff in order to understand and fit into the culture of that place. That is why they still interview potential staff, to see if as a person they would likely fit into the social environment.
I am also a former military person (Army, 14yrs) I can say that it very much depends on the individual. I have seen people that I wouldn't hire to take out the trash, and on the other hand I have seen people that could, and have, walked in to very nice jobs when they get out. Just because someone was in the military doesn't mean anything. Some of the best, and worst, IT personnel that I have worked for have been in the military. All the comments about military personnel "needing a manual" to get things done, at my current workplace I have heard more "this isn't my job" bullshit from the people that never served. My take on it is, it needs to get done so figure it out and get it done. I might not act in the way some veterans act, but counting us all out because of some duds seems like you are missing out.
> Many HR people might mistakenly prefer to hire ex military IT people, simply based upon HR's almost universal ignorance of what the field actually entails.
I think we need to push this at least one level up. HR doesn't usually make the final decision -- the hiring manager does. Although HR can influence that decision by choosing which resumes the hiring manager sees.
The sad thing is that the hiring manager, or the people to whom they answer, often doesn't know what IT entails either. And so we get situations where a contracting company sells the idea that they can provide the service for pennies on the dollar because IT is "just following procedures", and managers seeing big bonu$e$ coming their way, sign up for it.
Hiring ex-military, even if not particularly experienced in IT, might not be a bad idea, if the person is going into an already seasoned IT department. They are used to following procedures. They understand the chain of command. They're usually highly motivated. They stay on task. They're used to working wonky hours. Often they have technical experience, if not specifically in the required field. For an up and coming junior admin, it could be a really good fit.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
Just curious, could you give examples of MOS positions? I also thought that most members of a current army would be soldiers and officers (sergeants, corporals, lieutenants, etc).
Religion: The greatest weapon of mass destruction of all time
Military and the IT field are pretty much the same thing. If you come out of it alive, you're a hero to someone.
Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.
I've met many retired military folks in IT. Most are pretty cool. They listen, they follow orders, they do what they're supposed to. Though recently a guy where I'm at, who was a captain, is a complete fraud. He doesn't listen to anyone, he uses other peoples ideas, he learns buzzwords and bs's his way into favor.
You're absolutely right, HR is in a position to literally stack the deck. ("The deck" in this case being the pile of resumes the hiring manager sees or doesn't see.) I've been in IT for a long time, and traditionally the best way in is to contact the hiring manager directly. But this is getting harder and harder to do. Many companies only allow managers to interview from HR provided resumes. Many HR departments automatically reject resumes for applicants who don't have certain degrees, or do have the required degrees but not from the approved list of schools, regardless of experience. (In some cases, requiring a certain degree from applicants who may have been in the business before the degree existed.
So ultimately, the applicants that get to interview are the ones who have learned to "play the game", not necessarily the ones who are best for the job. I've seen people like this come and go. Employees who brag about how many degrees and/or certifications they have, (one had it in his signature file!) but either so abrasive that nobody can work with them, or displaying not a lick 'o' practical sense. It is to despair. With enough of those experiences, outsourcing to overseas increases in appeal.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
The NSA is, for all practical purposes, a military organization, and it seems to have more or less invaded other parts of the federal government, so saying that there will be similar mindsets from the military is not unreasonable.
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They're not mutually exclusive. I didn't serve a killing machine. I also don't believe all military personnel make the best IT professionals.
I believe honorable military service demonstrates a work ethic and set of values that is valuable nearly anywhere, as well as technical skills if the service member held an appropriate occupational specialty. Beyond that, college education, critical thinking and creative approaches to problem solving are variables unique to each individual. You can't equate an infantry corporal to a signal officer captain. They both might be leaving the service after their first contract is up and applying for the same IT job, but they are vastly different in experience and education.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
Not everyone can get paid for their passion. I hear some people have hobbies that involve women. Apparently they like to go out to dinner and shows and other things outside of the nice solitude of one''s house/mom's basement. I've seen these people do a lot of things you wouldn't think would be desirable to pursue their passions. . . or pursue passion. . . . or however you want to word it.
The U.S. military is not the most effective killing machine, nor they were design to be.
If one wants a effective military to defeat ISIS or North Korea, they should recruit among the inmates from the highest security prisons in the U.S.
New Economic Perspectives
Only if you're a vet.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
1: Nobody can tell you to "kill people". It's not a legal order and you're REQUIRED to disobey it if someone tries to issue it. Maybe if you knew what you were talking about.
2: Do soldiers put themselves in a position where it may be required? Yes. Does that make them a murderer? No. No more than a police officer. No more than a federal marshal. Again, the primary job of a soldier isn't to kill people.
3: In other words, you'll complain, but you won't try to make the world a better place. Sorry, you're a fucking leech then. And your opinion has exactly ZERO value. Go cry about how evil and unfair the world is to someone who cares.
What? Nobody gives a shit about your opinion? Tough.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
You can equate the experience of a soldier calculating the mortar trajectory with a handheld computer of some sort, to the experience in managing a virtual infrastructure. In the same way of thinking, since I am driving a car, I should be no problem getting employment as an engineer in automotive industry, overseeing the design and manufacturing. Right ? Hold on a second. I can barely change a tire. That is why I pay AAA. I have no mechanical aptitude what-so-ever. How can you expect anyone who knows how to hold a computer and punch few letters and numbers into it to be an IT expert after their service time ? This is the same mentality, who SIC'ed the ex-military people in the ranks of IT management and their thinking was, they decide fast under pressure. Yeah ! I can decide fast too, if you don't mind 50% of those decisions to be on the wrong side. Don't get me wrong. I support the armed forces and contribute money to causes supporting veterans regularly, but assuming all of those people will translate into IT because of their past experience in the armed forces is putting too much stock into a label, without actually hearing what is coming out of ones mouth. Jeeez...
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The more I know people, the more I love animals
You're thinking "rank", which is Private, Private First Class, Corporal, Sergeant (all enlisted) Lieutenant, Major, Colonel (all commissioned)).
An MOS is your actual occupational specialty.
Here's a list of MOS'es.
http://www.usarec.army.mil/hq/warrant/WOgeninfo_enlmos.shtml
Things like medic, truck driver, engineer, mechanic, pilot, etc, etc.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
And then there's mental defectives such as yourself who can't determine the difference between simple frustration and homicidal rage and automatically assume the latter due to the fact that I've had training with pistols, rifles, grenades, squad weaponry and anti-armor weaponry. People who are so oblivious they can't even comprehend simple things, such as my personal choice NOT to own weapons now that I'm a civilian.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
But better them than us.
This is why Americans are despised worldwide, and why veterans aren't actually welcomed back into the american civilian life.
But hey you have parades and all sorts of propaganda to make them seem valued to the public.
Sorry, but when I was a soldier, if someone was trying to kill me, it was my job to stop them from doing so. Unfortunately, in times of war, the final tool for doing this is the Patton Solution (Make the other dumb bastard die for HIS country).
If that makes people abroad, or at home, hate me and my fellow soldiers, that's THEIR problem. If they're so damn opposed to war, they needed to work harder to keep us from becoming embroiled in one. But it's always easier to bitch about how bad the country/world is. Actually FIXING the world is MUCH more difficult. Made more-so by intolerant blowhards who think that a choice of career in the military means someone is automatically a psychopath.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Why would anyone want to hire someone with anger issues that can't refute a small point? Did you or did you not directly or indirectly end the lives of people that did not commit a crime? If so, you are a sanctioned murderer. Swearing and ranting does not change facts.
Did I or did I not directly or indirectly end lives?
Nope.
I was a medic. And I was lucky enough to have never killed anyone. Or even wounded anyone.
And killing armed and actively hostile enemy combatants in a war IS NOT murder! If you don't understand the difference, you don't know what you're talking about.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
If we wanted to be "the most effective killing machine"?
We wouldn't be dropping high explosives.
We'd be dropping nukes.
Not chucking salvoes from the Arleigh Burke.
We SURE as hell wouldn't be putting boots on the ground!
Again, the military objective is to limit use of force to military targets and avoid civilian casualties/targets.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
i work for the military as a civilian in a IT-centric organization. for every 20 "IT Specialists" there is ONE that can do their job well and grow in it with proper nurture. the rest are monkeys that do not appear to have the capability to think critically and are in IT roles either because they wanted to be ("that looks cool" is sufficient) or scored highly on their ASVAB. they do the job they were trained to do and thats about it (even those SATCOM people).
We need leaders in IT, not followers. Everyone I know from high school who joined the military was a marginal student at best, with a decided lack of intellectual curiosity. Plus a lot of them were pushy assholes. No thanks.
Remember kids, if you're not paying for the service, YOU ARE THE PRODUCT THAT IS BEING SOLD.
So "murder" is whatever the hell you feel like defining as murder?
Uh. No. That don't fly.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
"The USA intentionally bombed France during WWII"
And what were the targets? Were they AIMING for hospitals? Were they TRYING to hit schools?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_bombing_during_World_War_II#Bombing_in_France
Precision bombing. Not carpet bombing.
No, they weren't very precise. And there were still occasional carpet-bombing runs. And yes, civilians were still killed as collateral damage. But there was no intent to go out and simply slaughter civilians.
All you're doing with your slanted arguments is proving just how little you actually know/understand.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
"Ignorant little leech on the ass of my country?"
Yeah. That's pretty much what I'd call someone who bitches about things but doesn't even have any ideas about what to do to actually make things "better". Let alone the will to try and be participatory so they can implement such things.
"Actually, it is not your country."
Actually yeah it is. Not in the possessive sense as in "I own this". My as in "I choose to associate myself with this".
And by serving the country I HAVE had a hand in granting (and protecting) people's rights. Maybe not on a firsthand basis, by my service, and the service of the millions of men and women over the last 200+ years have made it possible to claim "your" rights AS "YOUR" RIGHTS.
Please, TRY to tell me I'm wrong.
"FUCK OFF. That is what totalitarian countries do. Free people have no reason to serve you or "your" country. They can choose to, or they can freely chose not to. They are free to leave. They are free to stay."
And they're free to bitch. Something the service of millions has guaranteed. But, I'm also free to tell useless morons like this to, in your words "Fuck off".
But they're essentially bitching with no real audience. Because they do have any sense of responsibility. And think that this country OWES them in some way and should just spontaneously DO SOMETHING about their unconstructive criticisms. Instead of being constructive and trying to change the world FOR THE BETTER, THEMSELVES.
"They have no obligation to "serve" you."
I never said "serve me".
I said DO something instead of just bitching uselessly. Constructive criticism.
"Nor does anyone owe you a living, you leech"
Uh. I think your reading comprehension is flawed. Nowhere did I ever say anyone OWED me a living.
"Why do you hate the United States of America so much, you would lower "your" country to communism and totalitarianism?"
Okay, now I *KNOW* your reading comprehension is flawed. This has nothing to do with communism or totalitarianism. The fact that you THINK (and I'm using the term loosely) it does, shows just how far off-base you are. I suggested that some whiny little jackass actually stop bitching about the world being a shitty place and actually DO something with their life to MAKE IT BETTER.
"Whatever, but you are in the wrong place for that dude."
If you think I'm writing from Outer Bumfuckistan, yeah. You might be right.
But I'm writing this from the United States.
You don't like what I have to say? TOUGH!
You don't like my ideology? TOUGH!
You want respect? To NOT be talked down to like the know-nothing piece of crap you are? EARN IT!
You want the world to be a better place? WORK FOR IT!
Don't like the fact that you might have to get your hands dirty to make the world a better place? TOUGH!
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
But is this the fault of the millions of enlisted and commissioned service men and women?
Does it warrant labeling them, en masse, as murderers?
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Why is this a shock? Who else trains people these days?
It's been suggested for years that the military produce the best pilots, the best mechanics and a pile of other roles. Why not IT technicians? After all, they don't expect to employ instant experts and take on the best bullshitter at an interview, they take on people who look like they may be able to do a job and dedicate the effort into making sure they have an expert after a while.
People who go into the military with the idea that they want to meet interesting people AND KILL them usually get weeded out in basic training/boot camp. If not, they get weeded out in AIT (occupational training). People like that simply aren't stable enough to get through training in the modern army.
Nobody else really goes into the military with the notion that they want to go out and kill people.
That is not true. Well, not entirely true even if for the most part it is true.
Ever been near the 18th Airborne? Yeah, those guys are killers. They are almost pure animals. They built a special compound on Camp Buehring (Udairi) for them to transfer into Iraq. That compound had barbed wire leaning in as well as out. Why in? To keep those monsters from escaping and causing trouble for all of the other units heading up to Iraq.
18th Airborne is not entirely unique in this matter either. That is why I say what you say is untrue.
Some Marines join so they can kill... but the Marines have a whole different set of discipline. They never had to be segregated. Neither did the 82nd Airborne.
"Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
In the military you fix shit while in the shit and can't sleep till your done. Same with any good IT person.
but at least when it comes to Army IT guys, anyone that went to school after 2005 is a coin-toss.
The dumbing down of specialist fields has been ongoing as the military has switched from custom hardware to COTS (Common/Commercial Off The Shelf) systems. This really accelerated in 2003 and the transformation was almost complete by 2005. Troubleshooting down to the component level and resoldering circuit boards was standard procedure in the old days. Soldiers had to really understand how their systems worked and how they interacted with other things. As the equipment has gotten smarter, the requirements for the soldier have decreased.
I watched the knowledge base drain away while I was in the military. I spent my final three years as an instructor/subject-matter-expert (Brigade level) for all things IT and satellite communications. Every year, the students were less and less prepared for the training. This applied especially to my students from a communications career field. This was expected when it came to my students from non-IT careers, but in the end, the students that should have been the most well prepared for my classes did no better that those that had never seen a satellite dish before.
I spent an additional two years as a contractor in Afghanistan. I did everything from convoys out to remote FOBs to troubleshoot and repair systems, to training, to theater wide Tier-3/Engineering Level satellite support. I worked with hundreds of contractors at all levels and over 95% of them were veterans. The quality of work/knowledge level was a complete crapshoot. There were many that I dealt with that should have been fired or at least not had their contract renewed. One of them was my boss(gross negligence/mismanagement), the other was a CCNP that couldn't even create a basic NAT configuration for a 2800 series router(fired for reasons unrelated to his lack of technical competence). There were the occasional superstars (my replacement boss). There was everything in between.
In the end, I honestly see very few advantages to hiring veterans other than that they have a higher chance of being on time/early than a non-veteran. I see a distinct disadvantage in hiring anyone that was a First Sergeant or Sergeant Major(Don't worry, the ones you need to worry about will let you know they were one). Those are the ones most likely to have internalized the military and demand that those around them do the same.
After transitioning from the military to college to a position in the private sector, the only thing that I struggle with is what I perceive to be a lack of team cohesion. I am used to a lot more. That isn't to say that my team is non-functioning, its just that there is a lot tighter bond and reliance on good communication. Its gotten better now that I'm a year in, but I miss the tight camaraderie of my fire team.
I can imagine that the "jack of all trades" good sysadmins need to be is a great fit for veterans.
I'm a veteran. USAF 1992-1996. The government is taking our children and sending them half way around the world to kill people when it might make a few extra bucks for the oligarchs. There are lawful kill orders. There are unlawful kill orders. Both are carried out all day every day. No one signs up for infantry and is then surprised that it might mean shooting at people. NO ONE. I'm a veteran who tried to make the world a better place. It is much worse now. So I complain. The system is a fucking joke. You couldn't possibly be a bigger cunt.
The military is made up of people of all types, from all different backgrounds, from all different education and experience levels. I have anecdotal stories that would support both sides of this question, and I think it just boils down to the person, and not weather they're ex-military or not. In general, the ones I knew while I was in the military who were into IT outside of the military went on to have big careers in IT. I knew a few grunts who got out after the recent conflicts, and decided they wanted an IT career because they played lots of video games, and may have built a gaming PC. Even with tech school training, their skills were usually lacking. Same works for the non-military people I know.
It'll save on pension payments, I suppose.
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
You have both a rank and an MOS (Military Occupational Specialty). Both of them differ in terminology between the different services, although the ranks all correspond to the same pay grades. For instance, a Sergeant First Class in the Army, a Gunnery Sergeant in the Marines, and a Chief Petty Officer in the Navy are all pay grade E-7 (Enlisted 7). In some cases it can be confusing, as a Captain in the Army, Air Force, and Marines is an Officer in pay grade O-3, but a Navy Captain is pay grade O-6. Your MOS is whatever you've been formal trained/rated/etc in. For instance, in the Army each MOS had a two digit number and an alphanumeric letter, such as 11B for standard infantry. The number referenced what the overall group was, such as Infantry, Combat Engineer, Air Defense, Mechanic, Communications, Intelligence, Medical, etc. The letter would be the sub-specialization within that group, such as Wheeled Vehicle Mechanic vs Tracked Vehicle Mechanic, Human Intelligence vs Signals Intelligence, Armor vs Cav Scout, and so forth. Some had more than others, and sometimes old ones were merged or retired or reassigned. For instance, Intelligence used to have 3 different series, 96/97/98, but was merged into the 35 series, and Electronic Intelligence Analysts (98K) and Signals Intelligence Analysts (98C) were merged into 35N. Regardless of what your MOS is, you will also have a rank if you're a uniformed soldier, so that IT Specialist E-5 is a sergeant, is paid as a sergeant, although there are special incentive and duty pay options, even if those don't necessarily keep pace with civilian equivalents. Also, if your MOS is in high demand, there are options for large bonuses each time you re-enlist.