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Former Infosys Recruiter Says He Was Told Not To Hire US Workers
dcblogs writes: A lawsuit by four IT workers alleging that outsourcing firm Infosys favored hiring Indian workers over U.S. workers now includes an account from a former Infosys recruiter about the alleged practice. It includes accounts by Samuel Marrero, who worked in Infosys's talent acquisition unit from 2011 until May 2013, of meetings with executives at the India-based IT services firm. Marrero and other recruiters "frequently complained" to higher-ups at Infosys during these weekly calls that many of the highly qualified American candidates they had presented were being rejected in favor of Indian prospects. In response to one of these complaints, Infosys' global enterprise lead allegedly said, "Americans don't know $#!%," according to the lawsuit. Infosys has denied allegations that it discriminates.
Management doesn't know shit.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
It's an outsourcing firm. Of course they'll prefer candidates from India. That's kind of the point. Americans can't compete in that arena.
If Infosys is in fact guilty of discriminating against American workers by refusing to hire American workers for American jobs, then such malfeasance should be punished by confiscation of all of Infosys assets located in the United States, and by banning Infosys or any subsidiary of Infosys from operating on American soil.
Unfortunately, we can't just kill Infosys because they are a foreign corporation based in India. But we can damn well kick them out, and we probably should.
I write sci-fi for metalheads
So what, in many cases people choose mates and friends based on their race preferences.
Many clients choose which businesses they will deal with based on the origin business owner (some prefer to frequent or to avoid Indian or Middle Eastern or Asian establishments for example).
People must be able to discriminate however they see fit and I am talking about people in their individual lives and I am also talking about businesses obviously.
Yes, it should be possible to discriminate based on race, absolutely. Race, age, sex, any form of discrimination must be absolutely legal (and by the way it is unconstitutional, illegal for the federal government to regulate businesses and the entire concept of interstate commerce does not allow government to regulate business, it is only there to prevent individual States from erecting barriers of entry, which are still all there, so the federal government is not doing what it's job is and instead it constantly harasses businesses for no reason whatsoever).
Now, government must not be able to discriminate against anybody based on age, race, sex, ethnicity but that is also constantly happening for example with the war on drugs, with the so called 'war on terrorism', with every war that government runs.
Government must not be able to discriminate because it destroys the rule of law, destroys the free market (which is already destroyed in USA of-course) and eventually destroys the economy and thus the society. Government must be forced to treat people equally regardless of their natural characteristics, individuals must not be forced into anything.
If you will not accept government forcing you to marry any particular person or to frequent any particular business then it is inconsistent for you to be cheering for the government forcing a business to either hire or to serve any particular person. Cheering for it is the real discrimination and helps the government to grow its gigantic poisonous tentacles that end up stealing and murdering everything on their path.
You can't handle the truth.
It sounds just like working at jobvite.com. If you were white, jobvite wasn't interested. They fired all their American engineers and replaced with foreigners. This is because the VP of Engineering is Indian.
I am shocked.
What’s not to like about these programs?
You might think that, but my experience with outsourcing tells a very different tale.
"In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women..." -H. Simpson
NoteTitle should read "Foreign (greater than) US Workers == Obvious", sorry, been coding today and didn't notice it when I submitted it.
Foreign Workers === Obvious
In my experience dealing with Infosys, HCL, most of their workers don't know shit.
There are a few talented people that leave as soon as possible, leaving people ignorant of the bigger picture and incompetent management.
The bill of rights applies to "persons". "Citizens" is used elsewhere, so one should assume the bill of rights applies to all people.
These things have NEVER been about lack of available candidates.
This has ALWAYS been about companies deciding to use foreign labor to lower costs, undercut the market, and jack up profits.
Because corporations are mostly ran by douchebags.
Lying fucking useless assholes.
As usual, capitalism is destroying the economy for its own gains. H1B should just be stopped unless you can prove you didn't have qualified candidates.
And this sounds like that isn't something they could prove.
This whole program has been a lie from day to to let wealthy corporations effectively reduce wages, while ensuring executive bonuses remain at an all time high.
Kill all the CEOs.
If infosys really thinks Americans don't know anything about coding... then why does the US dominate the global tech sector?
Someone please smush a cool cherry pie right into that guy's face. Then point and laugh at him. Because this is a man in need of some humbling.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
Have you seen how many companies that have outsourced to save money have ended up cancelling it because they need people that can actually do the work and not just phone answering list monkeys? There are more than a few.
Before any of the hypersensitive cretins that love to take everything the wrong way start yelling about racist comment or something equally inane, a "list monkey" is some that just reads down a list or script and displays no more skills than a trained monkey pushing buttons, aka a "list monkey". If you don't know what a trained monkey is, you are a sad excuse for someone that is supposed to be literate.
That's not sympathy and understanding, that's memory.
I'm not complaining about racism here, this is not about race. This is about unfair playing field across national lines. It is cheaper to hire Indian workers than it is to hire American workers. The problem is, many left-wing types price US workers out of the market (albeit unintentionally) with regulations and taxes that foreign workers can simply avoid. When you add up all the "feel good" taxes, regulations, requirements and laws American workers face, it is easy to simply say, "I can hire four Indians, or one American".
Guess which one YOU would pick given the same situation?
It is a global marketplace, and we should start realizing it in our policies and laws.
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
Supply serves a demand. I would like to see further investigation into the demand (specific corporations) this corruption meets the needs of. There is clear abuse of H1-B at the expense of the employee (the product):
What a stupid comment.
Lazy with an entitlement complex. One guy we hired told us he taught himself a new programming language at a rudimentary level and sort of looked at us like he deserved a cookie. After being told that that kind of self initiated upskilling was expected of him, he sort of resented being told that.
Harley-Davidson laid off 125 Americans and replaced them with people on H-1 visas from Infosys. H-D's biker customers aren't going to like this once the word gets out.
I would probably agree, given that the Indian government had to release a PSA music video called "Take the poo to the loo" in an effort to combat the epidemic of its citizens defecating in the streets. They definitely know their shit.
And then what? Start competing for wages with people in Mumbai? That'll work out really well for American Exceptionalism.
It's only a global market because America has pushed for their broken definition of free trade, and because it is advantageous to corporations.
Stupid economic policies like what you suggest are the problem here. Doubling down on stupid won't fix the problem.
So, if you want a failing economy and high unemployment and low wages ... then what you describe is how to get it.
But you clearly believe the bullshit you're saying, which means you're already too defective to see the problems with it.
All that's happening here is corporations are moving more and money under their control, and gutting domestic economies for their own gains.
"Americans don't know $#!%"
If that's true, why is India scrambling to send all their children to U.S. colleges and universities? Sounds like just plain ole racism to me. I hope they get fined out the wazoo, have all their current contracts revoked and end up being banned from doing business in the U.S. (although the latter is probably never going to happen, we can dream).
If it's discrimination in favor of a minority, doesn't that make it affirmative action rather than discrimination?
And then what? Start competing for wages with people in Mumbai?
You do realize you're already competing for wages with people in Mumbai, right? That, just because a US company can't hire Indians in America, that doesn't mean they won't just hire Indians in India, right?
Oh, no, you don't, right?
The goal of Infosys employees is not to provide solutions to Infosys's marks^b^b^b^b^bcustomers. No, the goal is to push projects over budget while giving customers just enough hope and management cover that they reup for the next phase. Something that a couple of American type-A coders would have done in six months could take a team of 50 offshore Infosys consultants 3 years, so why would Infosys ever staff its ranks with competency?
The American managers go to Infosys and say "I need a contract coder that knows language/framework/technology X, and I want to pay about 75% of the going rate and be able to let this person go at any time.
This isn't about some racist policy that Infosys prefers Indians, its about the fact that American managers think they can get some code monkey for lower than the going rate and treat that person like a chair. Its external capital expenditure vs internal headcount. This isn't a problem for anything but the lowest end developers. If we want someone capable we hire the first capable candidate regardless of nationality, if management thinks all code is the same code (i.e. they don't understand the concept of code quality) then they realize that Infosys can give them a warm body for less than the market rate and there's the problem. Management puts up a little visa notice on some back board to satisify the law and in 2 weeks you get shipped a person.
...talking like employees are anything but serfs and like the USA is some sort of democracy instead of an increasingly minor subsection of an international oligarchy.
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
People like you fail to realise that a society built on consumerism will collapse without consumers. The success of businesses in the developed world is largely due to such evil lefty ideas such as leisure time and disposable income. Good luck replacing free spending US citizens with Indians on low pay with no free time.
Israel, Amdocs, Infosys
You forgot Somalia! Yeah, strawman argument is complete. Because it is all or nothing!
It is a global market, because labor in China (and elsewhere) is cheap. Move your factory to China, build the product saving tons in labor, increase profit, lower prices. Move your factory to China, avoid environmental regulations in the US, and the US is polluted with China Smog, and you get to save on costs, increasing profit, lowering prices.
Most decisions aren't stupid. See the above, moving to China was "smart", right up and until American Workers can't buy what you're manufacturing, because nobody has jobs. Short Term decisions keeping you competitive isn't stupid, Long term decisions that put you out of business aren't stupid either. What is stupid is having policies as if they have no impact on costs of doing business and doing proper cost benefit analysis. Which is part of the point I was trying to make.
Having Kyoto rules in place in the US, makes no sense when China and India (1/3 Population of the world) are busy taking all the slack created by companies unable to compete ... globally ... because it costs them a lot more. At that point, you're saying you'd rather them go out of business, the jobs moved to China, and China export its smog to the US. It solves NOTHING while making policy makers feel good (while flying around on corporate jets, living in mansions).
I don't believe what you're trying to say I believe. There has to be some sort of balanced approach to global economies and managing to grow our economy with good paying jobs so we don't have to have 50 million people on food stamps because good jobs are gone and the only place hiring is Walmart (selling Chinese goods).
If you believe the 5.9 % unemployment rate is accurate, by all means, keep voting more Obama and Democrats, and blaming evil corporations and republicans. EVERYONE has a role in our collective failure.
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
I realize it. Probably more than liberals who think they are entitled to the leisure time and disposable income. Free spending US citizens aren't the problem, the problem is people buying Chinese because it is %5 cheaper, not realizing that %5 keeps their neighbor employed. But lets tax those that earn a living here, so that we can have more people leisure time and non-disposable income (i.e. unemployed)
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
When the government doesn't have enough resources to prosecute every case, nearly any method would be better than racial preference - even selecting cases randomly. Everyone deserves equal access to justice, including the racial groups that you seem to think are real and homogeneous.
There is no such thing as "reverse" racism.
Americans won't work as tech consultants for 29k per year
You use Form WH-4: H-1B Nonimmigrant Information to to report employers who violate the provisions of the H-1B program. Should, you know, you want to file formal complaints against a company for some random reason.
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
Hardley Drivable would just spin it as necessary to remain competitive in the face of excruciating government regulation and the relentless costs of building an all-American machine for red-blooded Americans so we can keep kickin' ass and lookin' at titties. Oh, did we tell you about the titties?
And then Hardley owners simply stop thinking about anything but titties and the discussion is over.
X dollars per hour per candidate, do the math
...I would also not hire an US-American.
Ever been called in to fix what InfoSys left behind?
I sure have.
Ever been called in to fix what Avanade left behind?
I sure have.
Most of these "big" firms stink to high heaven when it comes to raw development.
Infosys must be run by libertarians. They hate American workers too.
You know, it's also racist to assume someone was racist just because they aren't "black, brown, yellow"...
Have you seen what passes for Electrical, Structural and infrastructure engineering in India? I think their deathtrap cities are designed to kill as many people as possible daily just to slow the population growth down there.
It's all throw the shit up any old way, and karma will provide - with that large of a population, have you considered the percentages against you for finding anyone that really knows what the fuck they're doing?
I'm not even going to try to do the math, but the odds of finding that one good person would probably require that you filter through 20 million applicants.
News flash. Caucasians have been on the receiving end of racism for much longer than this. The minute racial preferences of any kind are introduced, it's racism. Even if they are introduced to redress past wrongs, it's racism. Two wrongs don't make a right. If your law or policy makes any mention of race, it's a racist policy. The only exception is that it should mention race in general and say you aren't allowed to discriminate on that basis. Affirmative action? Racist. Yes. I went there. Literally. I was soaking in it at UVa back in the late 80s and early 90s. What did it get us? Black students with lower average SAT scores, because that was the only way they could think of to racially balance the school.
Now don't get me wrong. I know it hurts. I feel for you; but this isn't the right way to fix it. The right way to fix it is to do something about poverty in general without regard to race. As a nice side effect, that would have made the poor Whites in Virginia more educated too. You know what educated Whites do? They discriminate less, because they know it's stupid. They hire educated Blacks who got a proper education in K12. Aye, there's the rub. Fixing K12 is hard. Letting in Blacks with crappy grades and SAT scores is easy. Then what happens? They're under so much pressure to make it at UVa they cheat, and they get kicked out on honor violations more than Whites. That just creates more accusations of racism!
What a fustercluck. Anyway, I digress. To end racism, end racism. It really is that simple.
For the record, the Bill of Rights does apply to non-citizens. The US Constitution speaks of "people" and "persons" in regard to express freedoms, and uses the phrase "Congress shall make no law" when carving out areas where the government has no (or little) authority, e.g., freedom of speech.
Generally speaking, the only "right" not afforded non-citizens is the right to be inside the U.S. But even then, once you're here, you have the right to due process before you are forced to leave.
If you read the details of the complaint it is pretty compelling. InfoSys should go down had for this one and all their H1-Bs should be revoked. I really hope this serves as a turning point in the IT industry. This is the only thing I've heard in a while that I actually hope they blast on Fox News. From the stated claim: "70. While working on the assignment at Vinings, Georgia in December 2008, Infosysemployee-whistleblower Jay Palmer claims that another Infosys employee wrote âoeAmericans cost $,â and âoeNo Americans/Christiansâ on a whiteboard."
They require the exact date of high school graduation on your resume even if you have advanced degrees.
You know... when you were 18 so they can calculate their age.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
Back in the day I remember walking out of a tech interview and overhearing one guy urgently whisper to the other "Hire him! He's white!"
It was still kinda cringeworthy to hear even then, but this was before outsourcing, and boatloads (no pun intended) of Very Bad Programmers from Other Countries were flooding the market in person.
Nothing is inexplicable; only unexplained -Tom Baker, Doctor Who
"For the most part, the Bill of Rights doesnÃ(TM)t apply to non-citizens"
False. Blatantly, incontestably, irredeemably false.
Read the Constitution. When it refers to *citizens* it uses that term. When it refers to *the people*, it is referring to everyone living within the US, regardless of whether they are citizens or not. (Even the folks living here illegally are counted among "the people".)
"You do realize you're already competing for wages with people in Mumbai"
Fully. That is part of the anger on the issue.
I cant find food or shelter at rates comparable, but I have to compete with a structurally lower cost person
And I have to do that because someone *here* decided that. ( all the rationalizations still come down to a decision )
That someone here enjoys
Access to the market/economy that I am ( but, for many, am increasingly *not* ) part of
Pricing of products due to this access
Wages/profitability ( for the decider ) commensurate with *this* market/economy, ( and this, from *my* current, but someday lower wages! )
( plus the delta on what someone here used to make versus the other person )
But that someone here doesn't currently have to deal with the downward wage pressure.
I would have a hard time describing such people as occupying moral high ground.
For the record, trade is good, when done right ( the US allowing people and products to move without substantial issue ( other than real safety issues ) and our trading partners protecting and manipulating currencies and not allowing the reverse of the aforementioned people/product flow is wrong ).
emt 377 emt 4
Come say that to my FACE, you motherfucking piece of shit, and find out what happens. We don't know shit? You wouldn't even HAVE the technology you're working with without us, so how about you go fuck yourself, buddy?
Hiring departments don't know shit! HR people and managers are idiots! I ran into so many people saying they cannot hire me because I had two 2-year degrees instead of one 4 year degree. A 4 year IT degree is either outdated by the time you graduate or 2 years of general eds followed by my exact education. Then they end up with some idiot they they fire after he screws everything up.
Now you're probably thinking, they should have given me a proficiency or knowledge test. THEY DID! Tek Systems gave me theirs and I beat 80-90% of their worldwide programmers. A grand total of zero hiring departments gave a shit. THAT is why companies are screwing up. They're hiring rich families' kids who could afford a 4 year degree instead of the smartest, best applicant.
are fucked
May be now some of those candidates would know what it means to be on the receiving end of racism and look with some sympathy and understanding when black, brown, yellow Americans complain about it.
I am mostly White (I am part Blackfoot, but you wouldn't know it looking at me). I grew up in Hawaii. Only 30% of my high school was White. All the best jobs were reserved for native Hawaiians (Whites earned 75 cents for every dollar earned by Hawaiians). Anyone who was at least 5% native Hawaiian had access to free private education (non-natives were ineligible to even apply). I had White friends who had to be taken off island in the middle of the night because of race-based death threats. Every school had a Kill Hauoli Day in which any White student would get the crap kicked out of them (it's been at least 30 years since a hauoli actually died). Remember that different places have different racial minorities.
So what are your thoughts on an African-American being discriminated against by Infosys?
Did not read TFA. Boring and obvious.
But why did you think this industry gets special visa privileges from government? To hire more US workers? I mean, like, come on.
You do realize that in order to avoid those taxes and regulations, we'll need to turn the U.S. into a copy of India, warts and all, right?
I notice those same companies that want to offshore don't mind charging Americans 1st world prices. That too will have to go.
And we can tax the hell out of them if necessary to balance the books. Consider it a transformer fixing up the impedance mismatch between the U.S. and Indian economy.
There is a difference between hiring an indian at a lower salary and hiring an equally or lower qualified indian over an united states citizen at the same salary.
What's happening in this case is that Infosys has been caught hiring equally or lower qualified indians for the same salary as they would hire an united states citizen. That's illegal discrimination. That's what they've been caught doing.
Infosys also illegally discriminates based on age. Their behavior is only illegal in countries with anti-discrimination laws. It may be perfectly legal in india to hire only people of a certain cast, or males, or young people. When they start hiring feet on the ground in other countries tho, they have to obey the local hiring laws.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
If you can do math.
I mean c'mon. They make money exploiting workers from India, making them work for peanuts, dangling a green card in front of them. I am sharing a cubicle with one of these folks and he is making 2/3 of what I make doing the same shit I am doing. Guess where the remaining 1/3 is going to. It doesn't need rocket science to understand how these outfits are meking their money. The bad thing is, Facebooks and Microsofts of the American economy is pressing for laxation of the H1B visa quotas. And we end up with ass hole of companies like Infosys and Tata Consulting, stealing jobs from American workers. A real pity. I hope the politicians will get the heads out of the asses of these companies and think about the people they are representing for a change.
__________
The more I know people, the more I love animals
Seriously, the right message is to block infosys from working with American companies for at least 10 years.
To be fair, this is not just infosys that does this. So does tata and many many other companies. The reason is simple. They are NOT global in nature. They are all national, and simply want to bring the work back to their nation. The problem is that American Executives that are MBA's are in this for short-term gains. As such, it behooves them to continue to offshore, while also selling off the company bit-by-bit. GE, IBM, Boeing, etc are all good examples of companies being ran by MBAs that are destroying American companies, while screaming that this is about globalism.
After all, if it was TRULY globalism, then American and other western companies would be allowed into nations like China and India with our goods. But that is not the case.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Bingo. That is what tariffs are all about - basically, preventing business entities from exploiting wage differences across borders (the practice well-known as 'labor arbitrage' - look it up). Tax outsourced workers until they are at parity with US worker salaries and then let's see what happens.
These companies do NOT get X dollars / hr. They typically, get % of your hourly. That means that the more that you get paid, the more that they make.
So, what is the driving force here? To drive the technology back to their nation.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Then they won't mind paying annual H-1B visa fees in the amount of 250% of said worker's salary.
I mean, their argument is there there exists no local workers, or even workers within the *entire* US, that they can hire that could perform the same job.
Though some people seem to think racism is something white people do to other people, there are racists in all races and India is no exception. Lots of Indians are racial and cultural supremacists. They believe that Indians, and particularly their kind of Indian (there are many different ethnicity and linguistic groups in India) are the best/smartest/most capable people in the world and everyone else is inferior.
Friend of mine had an interesting situation with that. He's a consultant and he was consulting for another consulting company. This place is owned by an Indian guy, and largely staffed by Indian programmers. The owner was disinterested in bringing him on full time, and would routinely assign one of the Indian employees to help him. This despite the fact that it was evident my friend was quite a bit better at DB programming and routinely had to get called in to bail out other projects. The owner just had this view that as a non-Indian (my friend is 50/50 white and pacific islander) my friend just couldn't be as good at programming.
He finally came to the conclusion that my friend was by far the best programmer he had, despite his race and nationality, and tried to hire him, but at that point it was far too late and my friend will only work for them on a contract basis.
Enter the grand cross-generational theory of oursourced labor.
You see, especially for multi-national consumer products companies, getting their brand out there is job 1. To send their work overseas and import labor into the country to send money home is good for their strategic interests. It is clear that the American economy is not going to grow much more remarkably. If you are a brilliant multi-national what do you do? You don't just simply market your products in the other countries, you bring the people to America, give them jobs, treat them well, then send them home believing that your "brand" cares about them. They tell their families back home "I work for blah-blah company". What does the family back home do? Patronize the brands of course. What does the person that returns home do, praise the company and has a subconscious association with the brand that he will impulse buy it when it appears in his home country. How will he raise his children? To patronize the brand whose wages helped lift their family out of poverty of course. This is basic human reciprocity on a multi-generational scale. You don't think these 100+ year old global companies survived not knowing this do you? You better believe they know it. Every global consumer company knows that the American is wising up to their bullshit. China and India are the next big markets with Africa closing in behind. Just look at America 60 years ago, that's where the brand marketing is today in the 3rd world. Because the government sits in the big corporates pockets, their in cahoots with it all. H1Bs...hahaha.... we've all been fleeced. Your best bet for economic survival is to buy their stock so that the money they make in the 3rd world has some chance of making it back to you. But wait, isn't that how all these big corporate execs are compensated by stock performance??? Hmmmmmm..... how deep does the rabbit hole go Alice?......how deep indeed...
Protip= Only white firms fall over themselves to be equal opportunity. Every other country in the world hasn't bought into this friendship singing holding hands around the world. This is why uncontrolled immigration in this age is a bad idea. They are not becoming Americanized, nor do they want to. They are the same people who will whin up and down about any kind of precieved racism to themselves. Make no mistake, they are here to burn and pillage us as much as we allow them to.
they know, they choose to ignore it and pretend otherwise. But it's painfully obvious by anyone in the tech industry that the H1-B program exists to replace expensive local talent with cheaper imports. And yes, I've heard from more than one recruiter that they weren't hiring Americans for certain position, and seen posts looking for an H1-B specifically. What am I gonna do? I'm in no position to sue over it...
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the schools in India churn out pre-trained folks with a very, very specific skill set. They also can train at a fraction of the cost of a US employee since the cost of living in India (thanks to rampant poverty) is much much lower. We Americans just live too well. Now if we can just put half our population in tent cities and take away their access to clean water maybe we can compete...
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It's jerkass comments like yours that are used to justify unfair rules against men :(
and I wish people would stop saying that. It minimizes the threat that the current system presents to the American Working Class. They're not geniuses either. Their the same as you and me, only thanks to India's much lower cost and standard of living they're much, much cheaper to get trained. An American worker has $100k in Student Loan debt, and India has a few grand. That's what you're competing with. Folks with the same skill set as you obtained for a fraction of the price on the bones of their fellow countrymen...
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See my other comments above, and I still wish people would stop repeating this. They're paid more or less the same. It's not about salary, it's about cheaper training. The much, much lower standard of living for most Indians translates into a cheaper standard of living for their middle class and cheaper training costs. An American is carrying around $100k in Student Loan debt, and Indian might have a few grand. It doesn't hurt that an American with a diploma mill degree can't get a job, while an India can get a visa out of it...
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little or no accent. Dirt cheap and native speakers. The only problem is the floods mean you'll have to keep a small group of Indians for backup and put up with their accents every now and then. But they're fine technically and all you really need to do is get a remote desktop session going and then they stop talking.
We're all easily replaced these days. I wish more people realized that and pushed for protectionism. We employees are not global, while our employers _are_. At this rate they're gonna win this fight, and we're gonna lose. We'll be back to the 1800s. Nasty, brutish and short lives.
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but what you just suggested will never happen in a million, trillion years. Americans are too Balkanized. Too many pet issues we care about besides the economy and our pocket books. When we go to the polls we vote for a hundred other things (Abortion, Gay Marriage, Legalized Drugs, Gun Control, etc, etc, etc). You'll never see enough political will to punish a corporation. Hell, BP basically destroyed the Gulf of Mexico and got off with "We're sorry...".
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You've been doing too much high end stuff, which is few and far between. And the high end stuff doesn't stay local for the quality of tech, it's because Americans don't like foreign accents (except Australian, I knew an Australian dude on a sales project and he could sell Ice to Eskimos).
At the mid and low levels of support (which is 80% of the work or more) it's all overseas. What can't be sent to India because of the Accents is going to the Philippines. Their Native Speakers with little or no accent and they live in squalor so their dirt cheap.
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Nice to see an American Icon doin' stuff like that. Still, I doubt the customers will care. If you're the sort that can blow $100k on a bike you're probably not going to care much about the ethics of the company making them. I could be wrong, but I don't know a lot of working class guys that can afford a Harley...
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These Indian body shops not only won't hire Americans but they also won't hire any other kinds of immigrants other than Indians. It's basically a visa shop for Indians.
And we can tax the hell out of them if necessary to balance the books. Consider it a transformer fixing up the impedance mismatch between the U.S. and Indian economy.
I don't think that's going to happen because YOU are the problem globalization is supposed to fix. Once you are subdued, begging, starving and can't afford to live in the country of your birth you won't worry about your pay and conditions, you'll just be happy to have some form of employment (not _personally_ you btw). Globalization exports labor, but not pay and conditions.
Of course this is the reason unions existed in the first place, to protect workers and lobby politicians for the very solution you point to here.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
They should be careful with that ploy. The people will tolerate what they can and then they'll kill the ruling class.
They should be careful with that ploy. The people will tolerate what they can and then they'll kill the ruling class.
Exactly! That is what history has shown in the past.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
I'm American, and when my company outsourced their IT to another one of those Indian companies I was deemed a critical employee and was switched over to be an employee of the Indian company. More than 200 of my coworkers, experienced American IT workers who got shit done, were not so lucky. Now it's a couple years later, and things are still going downhill.
These Indians are the biggest bunch of useless incompetents I have ever had to deal with in my entire career. If I tell these so-called "experts" how to fix something when they obviously don't know how and I don't have the access to do it myself, I get to see that "Americans don't know shit" attitude firsthand- they will try a half dozen other things before grudgingly doing what I told them several days later. They don't read ticket details past the first sentence, and they love to play "hot potato" and pass tickets around to different teams because they don't want to deal with them. They show no ability to reason; if it's not in a run book they don't know how to do it, period. If one of them actually googled something it would be a god damn miracle. User productivity has suffered terribly at the hands of these fools. If I took the time to write down some of the things I have seen firsthand, you would not believe they actually happened because of how outrageous they are.
The CFO who probably was behind this offshoring mess got sacked quite a while ago. I've heard rumors that my former company has finally had enough, and lawyers are furiously gathering enough ammunition to be able to declare the Indians in breach of contract so the company can throw them out, reconstitute an internal IT department, and right the ship.
Look, if America needs the help, then they should be getting a green card, not a temp visa. As such, we need to solve the illegal issue along with a real deal on visas. We should drop the H1-Bs, and instead, put national needs at the front of the line. That means that if an AMERICAN company is unable to hire somebody local, then THEY can get more green carded legal immigrants.
And no, foreign companies should not be allowed to bring ppl in from overseas to do the work.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
May be now some of those candidates would know what it means to be on the receiving end of racism and look with some sympathy and understanding when black, brown, yellow Americans complain about it.
Come on, The caste system is alive and well in India
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
Why shouldn't people be entitled to leisure time and disposable income? You make it sound like something terrible instead of the perfectly reasonable expectation of having a life outside work and the ability to enjoy the fruits of their labour. People buy Chinese because either they can't afford more expensive items (and this is a vicious circle as more people see their living standards go down due to outsourcing) or because there's no alternative because most corps have outsourced to make a few people richer without actually reducing prices that much.
"Americans don't know $#!%,"
Wrong. South Asians don't know shit. They are discombobulated, aggressive, arrogant (for no good reason), and incompetent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmin
Read this and you will know why the indian dogs think they are so much better than everyone else. Only a matter of time before things go in a complete circle and the dogs are sent back to the rice fields.
Funny that the practice when you look at it on a company by company basis is essentially "Jerking off the dog to feed the cat" and not actually cheaper when you take into account fixing screw ups by substandard employee skill sets and the extra time it takes for a non-English speaker to comprehend and act on work responsibilities and (the real kicker) that the contractor organization is paid a salary usually equal to what they are paying the contracted employee. (as a finder's fee I suppose) Taking all this into account one can do the simple math and realize that just hiring a capable American to do the job as a full employee, would cost only a few bucks an hour more and would provide a better product. I think management also likes to think in the terms that contractors don't need to be given benefits, vacation time or perks like, access to HR. Anyone here who has been a contractor knows, you don't really get treated like an employee, Illegal crap like "Constructive Dismissal" and rampant "slandering" and shit rolls down hill type of ways of brushing management's "Steaming piles of dirty work" under the carpet is common practice.
Read the Constitution. When it refers to *citizens* it uses that term. When it refers to *the people*, it is referring to everyone living within the US, regardless of whether they are citizens or not. (Even the folks living here illegally are counted among "the people".)
Article I, Section 2: The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States,. . .
Hmmm... Foreign residents are not supposed to be able to vote; whether or not they actually do is another discussion altogether. Interestingly, the above quote, and the preamble "We the people of the United States of America," are the only two uses of the word "people" in the text of the Constitution. Citizen is used eleven times, mostly as regards elegibility for office.
The Bill of Rights uses "the people" five times, and "citizen" exactly zero times. The two documents were authored by different people. (The individual doing the original draft, that is. Many of the same people were involved in ratifying both.) It is entirely possible that "the people" was a stylistic term rather than differentiating between citizen and non-citizen. The Tenth Ammendment reads, "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." From this use of the word, one could argue that, as power over a country is not usually held by non-citizens, "the people" referrs to the citizenship.
Also, note the consistant use of the word "the" preceeding the word "people," which implys a specific group of people (citizens of the United States) not just any random set.
Now, where the documents use the word "a person", it is much more literally any person, citizen or not, given that several instances first mention "a person" or "no person", and then modifiy by specifying a length (or status) of citizenship. In the Bill of Rights, the word "person" appears in the fourth and fifth ammendments, and is in regard to search warrents and court procedures.
Now, before somebody starts citing supreme court cases, I am sure that the courts have probably held different interpretations. The above is mine, and I make no claim otherwise.
McFly777
- - -
"What do people mean when they say the computer went down on them?" -Marilyn Pittman
FU Infosys, Indians don't know SH!T! I never even talk to recruiters with Indian names anymore.
I studied in India for a spell while working for a nonprofit there. The statement "American's don't know sh*t" is so ridiculous. Half of the eng and PM's o worked with there literally could not abstract a concept. The reliance on rote memorization meant constant discussions of how to apply a concept to our needs versus the concrete examples presented in textbooks. And these were students from IIT/IIM. It was pretty shocking. A relative who is managing a large PE fund in Bombay stopped hiring from those schools because training became a major time suck, and critical decision making was severely lacking.
If it matters, I'm an American of Indian descent. I find the hiring policy disgusting, and clearly geared towards exporting OofM cheaper Indian. Working in startups, and sometimes faced with the uncertainty of whether a gifted foreign candidate will win the H1-B lottery, it pains me to know how many of those visas go to less qualified, cheaper mass produced exports. Sad.
Affirmative action? Racist. Yes. I went there. Literally. I was soaking in it at UVa back in the late 80s and early 90s. What did it get us? Black students with lower average SAT scores, because that was the only way they could think of to racially balance the school.
And at the height, were the proportions on parity with national race proportions? From what I saw, no. Whites were still disproportionately over-represented in schools.
Learn to love Alaska
...are they confused about? Of course they are going to ship the jobs to India. That's the whole point of it. You skip over qualified and expensive Americans to give the job to lower paid almost qualified workers in China and India.
"Why shouldn't people be entitled to leisure time and disposable income?"
The fact that you ask the question, indicates that you don't realize what "entitled" means. Who is going to "provide" this entitlement?
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
If you meet anybody from India ask him "What Is Your Caste?".
Google "Map Shows Most Racist People On Earth".
http://www.washingtonpost.com/...
Casteism
Bullshit. I was in Hawaii 30 years ago, and the only part of that that might be true is the free education for full-blooded Hawaiians. "Kill Haole Day" was at worst the day that bullies felt emboldened enough to punch mainland-born kids. I was a geeky kid and I never saw anything like that personally.