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Too Much Privacy: Finnish Police Want Big Euro Notes Taken Out of Circulation
jones_supa writes The Finnish Police are concerned that larger banknotes, namely the €200 and €500 banknotes, encourage criminal activity and should therefore be removed from Finnish cash circulation. Markku Ranta-aho, head of the Money Laundering Clearing House of Finland, says criminals prefer cash because it is harder for police to track. In contrast, a record of electronic money transfers remains in the banking system, which makes the police's job considerably easier. Ranta-aho also says citizens rarely use the larger banknotes anyway, with which The Bank of Finland's advisor Kari Takala agrees. However, The Bank of Finland is skeptical about the ability of a ban on €500 banknotes to eliminate underground labor and trade in Finland. Takala suggests criminals would just switch to smaller bills. More illegal transactions take place via bank transfers, he says.
If you ban cash, the four bogeymen (need I mention them?) and the wobbly anarchist menace will create their own cash.
Oops, it's been already done, not once but a dozen times.
Not only in Finland! I've heard that in the United States aswell the police is very proactive about taking notes out of circulation.
As a normal person I never had use of large bills like that. Even 100 is an annoyance as you have to get it accepted for change somewhere. So in essence nothing of value would be lost. Then the claim that it would be effective at curbing illegal business is not very strong either.
I remember when the Euro was first rolled out. Finland did't bother minting 1c and 2c coins, 5c was the minimum. I think they just don't see the point in the big notes, not just that there only use is crime but probably Finns just don't use them at all. I would say they are the most progressive Europeans.
When you start banning things just to make the job of police easier, you know that your government has at least a few problems with freedom. If freedom means that police have a harder job, then so be it.
In contrast, a record of electronic money transfers remains in the banking system, which makes the police's job considerably easier.
Yes because our lives should be dedicated to making the police's job considerably easier. Welcome to the new fascist state, it's the same as the old one. It just doesn't have all the goose stepping and death camps.....yet.
Finnish police says that most crimes are committed in places where there are no surveillance cameras. "We would like to ban such places", says Markku Ranta-aho. "Also, it's a problem that we don't know what is going on in people's houses. Those places are like an invisible zone for us". He continues his arguments with wanting to install cameras everywhere. "All of this would make our job considerably easier".
And just why do think the Federal reserve retired anything abouve $100 on July 14, 1969?
Ignoring that obstacle I still don't see how this would work - they could end their status as legal tender but beyond that? How can they stop to individuals that have agreed to use these notes doing business with them? Will they try and make bartering illegal next?
(Writing this I'm currently in Japan where trying to use any form of payment that's not cash (notes/coins) is next to impossible outside the largest shops in the large cities.)
It just like those illegal craigslist advertisements - the police should LOVE them because it makes it easier to identify a criminal.
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
It's not like every criminal in movies demands their cash transactions in twenties because they don't raise any flags, like bigger bills would. Maybe in Finland it's perfectly normal to have a bunch of big bills in daily use.
Thank you, Bradley Manning, Edward Snowden and so many others, for courageously defending humanity, my freedom and more!
As odd as this sounds at first: I think this makes sense.
Europe has a very good (international) banking system. Transferring money within Europe is very easy and standartized. You can pay basically everything within "normal" price ranges with credit and giro cards.
For the "special" occasion where you need 5000 Euro or 10k in cash (buying a car?) you probably can do with "a large pack of notes".
200 and 500 Euro notes make one thing very easy: transport and use large amounts of money in cash.
Who really needs to regularly transfer and pay with large amounts of cash? Especially if those usually are not accepted at shops (for security and practibility (change))? While I can imagine civilian uses I bet that "shady" or "outright criminal" make up a large percentage. If every crook has to decide if he wants to carry 100 500 notes in his pocket or 1000 50s, I'm fairly sure he might try to look for other solutions. You also cannot hide 1000 50s much, much harder than 100 500s, the risk (loss of all kinds) significantly increases with the size of the package.
So I say: go for it. Ban everything above 100s - and maybe even those. Pay for stuff where you'd need 100s electronically in some way.
They could also start using alternative currencies, but I'm assuming they haven't considered that as a risk.
Hey, the Finn cop's missed child trafficking! They were supposed to add, "Help prevent child trafficking" to their laundry list of bullshit reasons for doing something entirely meaningless to prevent something that they are already powerless to prevent.
Well, ok, why don't we just ban paper money?
Give the government full access to your bank account...
All transactions pass through the federal government...
Crime should end overnight right?
Just think, you can stash maybe 10,000 euros in a single cigarette box using 500's. If you remove that note and fall back to say the 100euro note then you now need 5x the space or can only conceal a fifth of the value in the same space. The concealment & movement of money now needs to be scaled up to move the same quantity of money, which in turn raises the risk of someone being discovered. Getting stopped in the street you could hide a few 500's in a wallet which would easily be missed. In lower denominations you're now talking about wads of notes that are more noticeable.
--- To save space, would readers please insert their own witty comment -here-
I've heard that the people who are scared the most about the SnapChat "hack" aren't the sexters, but financial industry people who thought it would be a great way to do backroom deals outside the prying eyes of regulators. They use perfectly legal and innocuous transfers to move money, buy assets, etc. The real meaning is held elsewhere.
You know what it's a lot like? How the drug trade uses code language, bank transfers, etc. In other words, these methods are effectively useless at making strategic victories against criminal activity.
At the national level, the police should be expected to operate strategically, not tactically. Take child exploitation. As an American, I don't want the FBI busting some high school sophomore who took a topless pic in her school's locker room, I want them investigating multinational conspiracies to exploit children. What's the point of even having such a high level agency if it often acts at the same level as a municipal police force?
Leave the crooks who use big bills to hide deals to the locals.
How many of you see a $500 bill anymore? War on Drugs and all.
Reintroduce $1000 notes.
The Constitution gives sovereignty to citizens not the government.
We all sit inside our homes with our hands on the table. ....
The world isn't meant to be made easier for cops.
Getting even 2k in 50s would be annoying. Alko can usually give change on a 500 if you need to break it. (Alko = state booze monopoly for the non-Finns)
I can't see how using hundreds would really inconvenience criminals either. A quick search says a million would weigh 2kg in 500s, meaning 10kg in 100s. Smuggling huge sums across national borders might become harder but otherwise, who cares.
I mean, we got rid of pinks ($1000 bills) and Canada no longer has any crime. Shame we still have to pay for the police, though--guess it's just a legacy thing. Perhaps we can roll them into systemd?
"We only track the criminals and terrorists, SUBJECT".
Only allow people to use 1c coins and the rare special dispensation to use 2c coins
National police are concerned that banknotes encourage criminal activity and should therefore be removed from circulation. The head of the your nation's Money Laundering Clearing House says criminals prefer cash because it is harder for police to track. In contrast, a record of electronic money transfers remains in the banking system, which makes the police's job considerably easier. He also says ordinary law-abiding citizens rarely use the banknotes anyway.
As we say on Slashdot, "There, fixed that for you."
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
I wonder if the Finns can unilaterally decide that the 200/500 Euro notes are no longer legal tender in their country. Then again, maybe they don't have to. Many stores over here (.nl) already don't accept large denominations.
They ban something nobody uses but criminals. You can still do everything you could before, your freedom is not constrained in any way. The only downside is that you have to now carry about 4 times the weight should you be one of the rare types who walks about with thousands of euros every day.
we see your purchased some burgers and fries when your doctor told you not to. services denied / co-pay raised.
but I only bought those to give to the homeless...
DENIED
Generally I think the sentiment is correct in as far as the larger notes are only used by the criminal classes.
Here in this country at least, they will move large amounts of money around inside of a cigarette packet in the form of very large denomination Euro notes.
It works as a system since it doesnt draw attention to the courier, and even if someone attempts to rob the courier they're much less likely to steal the victim's packet of cigarettes on top of stealing their wallet etc too.
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Maybe you statist fucks should mind your own business
due to the strong dollar.
I am starting to see ATMs that are dispensing stripper money. (5s and singles)
New Economic Perspectives
Screw you and your tyrant ways.
Everyone should do everything with cash just to screw you and your fascist money tracking off...
(This goes for all countries and cops)
What criminal wants to be paid with a bunch of $500 bills. How do you launder that? Wouldn't it be preferable to have a bunch of $20's which you could use anywhere without anyone batting an eye? Sure the larger bills are easier to sneak through a border or something, but they come with their own set of problems too. If my extensive knowledge is to be believed, and I've seen a lot of movies, criminals prefer a variety of small unmarked bills with non-sequential serial numbers.
I am sad to say this, but Finland is on the road to becoming the USSR.
In the UK the biggest denomination in public operation is actually just GBP50. And even that - try giving it to a taxicab driver at 3am and see what he says - most small shops will refuse them precisely because they are the main target of fraud.
I was once given lots of £50's by a relative. It was an absolute pain trying to use them for day-to-day expenses. Some of the large supermarkets will take them but they'll scan them and test them and all sorts before they'll accept them. And a lot of places just won't accept them (sure, you can cause a fuss - but who wants to argue everywhere they go to shop?).
It was just easier to put them in the bank and draw out the equivalent in 20's while I was there.
The one good thing about the modern age is electronic money. I can't remember the last time I had to carry cash (coin or note). And without electronic money can you imagine trying to do Internet shopping etc.
Hell, last time I ordered a pizza, I did so online precisely because I couldn't be bothered to go withdraw some cash just to pay the guy.
It does make money-laundering harder. It does make mistakes easier to make (but there are processes for that, and I've never had a bad experience cancelling a payment even when the company on the other end was entirely unco-operative). And, yes, it does put a lot of your life in the hands of the banks. But I can't really see a future for cash. And certainly not cash in those denominations.
I don't have a tap-to-pay card, however. The problem needing to be solved is how do I pay for JUST a pack of mints with my card? That's tricky in terms of equipment, commission, hassle (entering codes, etc.) and security (I don't trust tap-to-pay yet).
To be honest, last I hear most counterfeiting in the UK is actually on 1GBP coins. Because they are made of cheap metal, they tend to be easier to forge than expensive security features like holograms, etc. The only "solution" is to follow what happened with the 2GBP coin, and that's to make it bi-metallic - which is the next plan from the Bank of England.
P.S. Slashdot really need to sort their systems out. Can't put in a proper bloody pound sign.
I'm skeptical about the claims of the Finnish police. If citizens rarely use large banknotes, then criminals using them automatically attract attention. The note gets examined and the ID of the person cashing it get taken down. Long ago, the Lindberg kidnapper was caught because, when he cashed his rare banknote, the person accepting it wrote his car tag on it. The same would happen to criminals attempting to cash these notes.
To the extent that getting rid of big Euro notes would change criminal behavior, it'd only drive them to use smaller, less likely to be noticed notes.
Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank.
Give a man a bank and he can rob the world.
Police should be concentrating their efforts on the rampant corruption in the banking systems themselves.
This wouldn't be new in the eurozone. Portugal doesn't have 500€ notes in circulation since it started to use the euro, but the reason there is because, at the time, the minimum wage was less than 500€ (it still was until 14 days ago) and it was decided to not have them so that a person's wage couldn't be paid with a single note.
The largest bill available in Canada is the $100. It turned out that they were primarily used for criminal purposes, so they got rid of them a decade ago.
Or, they could.. you know - require photo I.D. for large cash purchases, much like the U.S. post-911.
Try going to Sears and paying $1500 for a new stove in 2002. Drivers license sir? We have to record your name and address.
THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK.
Wolves should show compassion with sheep and bears should not defecate in woods. Plus I want pinky fairies rule the world.
NSA and Raytheon(TM). Turning human flesh into value since 1951.
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Interesting stuff.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L...
Although they are still technically legal tender in the United States, high-denomination bills were last printed on December 27, 1945, and officially discontinued on July 14, 1969, by the Federal Reserve System. The $5,000 and $10,000 effectively disappeared well before then.
The Federal Reserve began taking high-denomination bills out of circulation in 1969, after an executive order by President Nixon (rather than actual legislation passed by Congress). As of May 30, 2009, only 336 $10,000 bills were known to exist; 342 remaining $5,000 bills; and 165,372 remaining $1,000 bills. Due to their rarity, collectors will pay considerably more than the face value of the bills to acquire them. Some are even in other parts of the world in museums.
For the most part, these bills were used by banks and the Federal Government for large financial transactions. This was especially true for gold certificates from 1865 to 1934. However, the introduction of the electronic money system has made large-scale cash transactions obsolete. When combined with concerns about counterfeiting and the use of cash in unlawful activities such as the illegal drug trade and money laundering, it is unlikely that the U.S. government will re-issue large denomination currency in the near future, despite the amount of inflation that has occurred since 1969. (A $500 bill is now worth less, in real terms, than a $100 bill was worth in 1969) [emphasis mine]
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
Rolexes are the best currency for larger sums and are actually used for exactly that. You wear them on your wrist and if you clothe accordingly they're not even suspicious when crossing a border.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
Sweden (next door to finland) the bill equal to €100 is about to disappear. And €50 is the largest bill.
Sure, criminals use the €50 bill but to be honest no-one really want to pay a new car with small bills, it's to bothersome for someone "normal" to do. (it's also not uncomplicated to get the bank to give you more then ~€1000 in cash from one bank in a 2week period.)
But I can honestly say that the gains of making it harder for the criminals is worth it. It's not all that hard to collect quite large amount of cash if you want but most transactions are made by diffrent type of banktransfers (Yes they can be instant for about €0.1).
What advantage can you think of that a $1000 bill has over 10 x $100 bills?
I can dream up a few, like if I want to bribe my congressman maybe I don't need as many envelopes, or on those days where I need to shift $20,000,000 in cash it's a few pounds lighter so the shipping is cheaper.
But none of these would make me "strongly favor" bringing it back.
Moving an account from one bank to another and wanting it to be credited the same day. Er... without paying for a wire transfer.
Shopping in Manhattan. The last time I was in the Williams-Sonoma store they had a $1500 bread knife.
It doesn't affect me so I don't really care--I can count the number of times I've walked around with more than $1,000 in cash on me on the fingers of one hand--but there are certainly people whom it affects.
out of circulation instead...
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The police have identified a statistically significant indicator of criminal activity(being conducted in the open) and they want to eliminate that indicator to make the distinction from criminals and normal people harder to detect?
Are they stupid, or are they just bored and don't think law enforcement is hard enough already?
If I sniff some glue, I can probably think at their level and guess their thought process: "Criminals will find the 5-10X increase in volume/mass of moving large amounts of cash to be burdensome to the cash smuggling that is inherent in money laundering."
Maybe instead of thinking like children, they should have bank tellers report withdrawals requesting 500 euro notes specifically as suspicious activity. Then flag the individuals for surveillance, and put the people involved in cash smuggling through a secondary screening at the borders/international airports. Bonus: they get to seize the money!
Note that the article says "take out of circulation" not make illegal, so you would still be able to carry 500 EUR; and since Finland is in the Schengen area, you can take a ferry or go to Sweden without going through customs where they would still be legal. And let's not get started on a 1300 km. border with Russia; Russia would of course enforce a ban on 500 EUR notes. At least in the article the head of the Finnish Central Bank is against the idea (I know, I know, I read the article)
It's hilarious seeing comments such as this one that view all these supposedly inevitable abuses of a proposed system through the lens of ridiculous Americentric concerns. Like co-pays and profit-driven private healthcare.
One person giving their own money to another person should never be against the law. The only part of a transaction that can be illegal is the other side of it, the thing purchased for money. For example, when buying a stolen car, it should be illegal for the thief to give you the stolen property, but it should not be illegal for you to give him the cash.
--- wad
I've possibly seen a 200€ or 500€ bank note once or twice in my life. This has no affect on me what so ever and I suspect that people who actually have lots of money don't use those notes either. They are like the 1 and 2 cent coin. They have practically 0 utility in any meaningful transactions and just make everyone's lives harder.