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Too Much Privacy: Finnish Police Want Big Euro Notes Taken Out of Circulation
jones_supa writes The Finnish Police are concerned that larger banknotes, namely the €200 and €500 banknotes, encourage criminal activity and should therefore be removed from Finnish cash circulation. Markku Ranta-aho, head of the Money Laundering Clearing House of Finland, says criminals prefer cash because it is harder for police to track. In contrast, a record of electronic money transfers remains in the banking system, which makes the police's job considerably easier. Ranta-aho also says citizens rarely use the larger banknotes anyway, with which The Bank of Finland's advisor Kari Takala agrees. However, The Bank of Finland is skeptical about the ability of a ban on €500 banknotes to eliminate underground labor and trade in Finland. Takala suggests criminals would just switch to smaller bills. More illegal transactions take place via bank transfers, he says.
If you ban cash, the four bogeymen (need I mention them?) and the wobbly anarchist menace will create their own cash.
Oops, it's been already done, not once but a dozen times.
Not only in Finland! I've heard that in the United States aswell the police is very proactive about taking notes out of circulation.
As a normal person I never had use of large bills like that. Even 100 is an annoyance as you have to get it accepted for change somewhere. So in essence nothing of value would be lost. Then the claim that it would be effective at curbing illegal business is not very strong either.
I remember when the Euro was first rolled out. Finland did't bother minting 1c and 2c coins, 5c was the minimum. I think they just don't see the point in the big notes, not just that there only use is crime but probably Finns just don't use them at all. I would say they are the most progressive Europeans.
When you start banning things just to make the job of police easier, you know that your government has at least a few problems with freedom. If freedom means that police have a harder job, then so be it.
In contrast, a record of electronic money transfers remains in the banking system, which makes the police's job considerably easier.
Yes because our lives should be dedicated to making the police's job considerably easier. Welcome to the new fascist state, it's the same as the old one. It just doesn't have all the goose stepping and death camps.....yet.
And just why do think the Federal reserve retired anything abouve $100 on July 14, 1969?
Ignoring that obstacle I still don't see how this would work - they could end their status as legal tender but beyond that? How can they stop to individuals that have agreed to use these notes doing business with them? Will they try and make bartering illegal next?
(Writing this I'm currently in Japan where trying to use any form of payment that's not cash (notes/coins) is next to impossible outside the largest shops in the large cities.)
It just like those illegal craigslist advertisements - the police should LOVE them because it makes it easier to identify a criminal.
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
It's not like every criminal in movies demands their cash transactions in twenties because they don't raise any flags, like bigger bills would. Maybe in Finland it's perfectly normal to have a bunch of big bills in daily use.
Thank you, Bradley Manning, Edward Snowden and so many others, for courageously defending humanity, my freedom and more!
They could also start using alternative currencies, but I'm assuming they haven't considered that as a risk.
Hey, the Finn cop's missed child trafficking! They were supposed to add, "Help prevent child trafficking" to their laundry list of bullshit reasons for doing something entirely meaningless to prevent something that they are already powerless to prevent.
Well, ok, why don't we just ban paper money?
Give the government full access to your bank account...
All transactions pass through the federal government...
Crime should end overnight right?
Came here to say this, and that for us average joes, such large bills are bad from a safety perspective, if they were available to me I'd avoid using them. Too many eggs on one banknote.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Just think, you can stash maybe 10,000 euros in a single cigarette box using 500's. If you remove that note and fall back to say the 100euro note then you now need 5x the space or can only conceal a fifth of the value in the same space. The concealment & movement of money now needs to be scaled up to move the same quantity of money, which in turn raises the risk of someone being discovered. Getting stopped in the street you could hide a few 500's in a wallet which would easily be missed. In lower denominations you're now talking about wads of notes that are more noticeable.
--- To save space, would readers please insert their own witty comment -here-
I've heard that the people who are scared the most about the SnapChat "hack" aren't the sexters, but financial industry people who thought it would be a great way to do backroom deals outside the prying eyes of regulators. They use perfectly legal and innocuous transfers to move money, buy assets, etc. The real meaning is held elsewhere.
You know what it's a lot like? How the drug trade uses code language, bank transfers, etc. In other words, these methods are effectively useless at making strategic victories against criminal activity.
At the national level, the police should be expected to operate strategically, not tactically. Take child exploitation. As an American, I don't want the FBI busting some high school sophomore who took a topless pic in her school's locker room, I want them investigating multinational conspiracies to exploit children. What's the point of even having such a high level agency if it often acts at the same level as a municipal police force?
Leave the crooks who use big bills to hide deals to the locals.
Let the government track your every step. What could possibly go wrong?
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Getting even 2k in 50s would be annoying. Alko can usually give change on a 500 if you need to break it. (Alko = state booze monopoly for the non-Finns)
I can't see how using hundreds would really inconvenience criminals either. A quick search says a million would weigh 2kg in 500s, meaning 10kg in 100s. Smuggling huge sums across national borders might become harder but otherwise, who cares.
probably less than you mind makes you believe
Only allow people to use 1c coins and the rare special dispensation to use 2c coins
National police are concerned that banknotes encourage criminal activity and should therefore be removed from circulation. The head of the your nation's Money Laundering Clearing House says criminals prefer cash because it is harder for police to track. In contrast, a record of electronic money transfers remains in the banking system, which makes the police's job considerably easier. He also says ordinary law-abiding citizens rarely use the banknotes anyway.
As we say on Slashdot, "There, fixed that for you."
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Agreed. The hundreds of millions of people abused by corrupt governments throughout history never existed; it's all a myth. The governments of today are composed of perfect beings who can never make mistakes or do any wrong. That's why we never see or hear about them abusing anyone.
Power corrupts? Please. That's just nonsense spewed forth by those 'freedom' losers.
I wonder if the Finns can unilaterally decide that the 200/500 Euro notes are no longer legal tender in their country. Then again, maybe they don't have to. Many stores over here (.nl) already don't accept large denominations.
I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying that these bills represent nothing but risk for most people and have no practical uses apart from money laundering. I'm openly anti-money-laundering.
There are positions between the government knowing the details of all transactions and having notes that are utterly useless (at best) apart from making money laundering convenient.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
we see your purchased some burgers and fries when your doctor told you not to. services denied / co-pay raised.
but I only bought those to give to the homeless...
DENIED
From your article:
The whereabouts of almost $1-billion worth of the banknotes is a mystery rekindled this month at Quebecâ(TM)s corruption probe when a witness spoke of a safe over-stuffed with cash, including $1,000 notes, inside a political office.
Enough said.
Have gnu, will travel.
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due to the strong dollar.
I am starting to see ATMs that are dispensing stripper money. (5s and singles)
New Economic Perspectives
I don't carry enough money that these notes would be useful. For things like cars or houses where a note like this might make sense, I'd be OK with the government knowing about it - you have to register those things with them anyway.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Screw you and your tyrant ways.
Everyone should do everything with cash just to screw you and your fascist money tracking off...
(This goes for all countries and cops)
What criminal wants to be paid with a bunch of $500 bills. How do you launder that? Wouldn't it be preferable to have a bunch of $20's which you could use anywhere without anyone batting an eye? Sure the larger bills are easier to sneak through a border or something, but they come with their own set of problems too. If my extensive knowledge is to be believed, and I've seen a lot of movies, criminals prefer a variety of small unmarked bills with non-sequential serial numbers.
In the UK the biggest denomination in public operation is actually just GBP50. And even that - try giving it to a taxicab driver at 3am and see what he says - most small shops will refuse them precisely because they are the main target of fraud.
I was once given lots of £50's by a relative. It was an absolute pain trying to use them for day-to-day expenses. Some of the large supermarkets will take them but they'll scan them and test them and all sorts before they'll accept them. And a lot of places just won't accept them (sure, you can cause a fuss - but who wants to argue everywhere they go to shop?).
It was just easier to put them in the bank and draw out the equivalent in 20's while I was there.
The one good thing about the modern age is electronic money. I can't remember the last time I had to carry cash (coin or note). And without electronic money can you imagine trying to do Internet shopping etc.
Hell, last time I ordered a pizza, I did so online precisely because I couldn't be bothered to go withdraw some cash just to pay the guy.
It does make money-laundering harder. It does make mistakes easier to make (but there are processes for that, and I've never had a bad experience cancelling a payment even when the company on the other end was entirely unco-operative). And, yes, it does put a lot of your life in the hands of the banks. But I can't really see a future for cash. And certainly not cash in those denominations.
I don't have a tap-to-pay card, however. The problem needing to be solved is how do I pay for JUST a pack of mints with my card? That's tricky in terms of equipment, commission, hassle (entering codes, etc.) and security (I don't trust tap-to-pay yet).
To be honest, last I hear most counterfeiting in the UK is actually on 1GBP coins. Because they are made of cheap metal, they tend to be easier to forge than expensive security features like holograms, etc. The only "solution" is to follow what happened with the 2GBP coin, and that's to make it bi-metallic - which is the next plan from the Bank of England.
P.S. Slashdot really need to sort their systems out. Can't put in a proper bloody pound sign.
Fair enough. I am openly pro-money-laundering.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Because 200 euro and 500 euro notes are all that stands between total anonymity and letting the government track your every step...
Maybe I'm not paranoid enough; many posters seem to consider this a huge issue but I don't see it. If getting rid of 500 euro notes means loss of freedom, what does the lack of 1000 euro and higher notes mean? I realize cash would be effectively banned for many uses if all coins/notes above, say, 1 euro were taken from circulation, but I don't think the Finnish government could even succeed in doing that.
I hate getting on a plane with a huge stack of $100 bills...
Yeah, that's gotta' really suck.
probably less than you mind makes you believe
What a well reasoned argument. You've clearly thought this through.
"What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
The largest bill available in Canada is the $100. It turned out that they were primarily used for criminal purposes, so they got rid of them a decade ago.
Careful, this opens up a lot of ironic death possibilities.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Or, they could.. you know - require photo I.D. for large cash purchases, much like the U.S. post-911.
Try going to Sears and paying $1500 for a new stove in 2002. Drivers license sir? We have to record your name and address.
THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK.
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Interesting stuff.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L...
Although they are still technically legal tender in the United States, high-denomination bills were last printed on December 27, 1945, and officially discontinued on July 14, 1969, by the Federal Reserve System. The $5,000 and $10,000 effectively disappeared well before then.
The Federal Reserve began taking high-denomination bills out of circulation in 1969, after an executive order by President Nixon (rather than actual legislation passed by Congress). As of May 30, 2009, only 336 $10,000 bills were known to exist; 342 remaining $5,000 bills; and 165,372 remaining $1,000 bills. Due to their rarity, collectors will pay considerably more than the face value of the bills to acquire them. Some are even in other parts of the world in museums.
For the most part, these bills were used by banks and the Federal Government for large financial transactions. This was especially true for gold certificates from 1865 to 1934. However, the introduction of the electronic money system has made large-scale cash transactions obsolete. When combined with concerns about counterfeiting and the use of cash in unlawful activities such as the illegal drug trade and money laundering, it is unlikely that the U.S. government will re-issue large denomination currency in the near future, despite the amount of inflation that has occurred since 1969. (A $500 bill is now worth less, in real terms, than a $100 bill was worth in 1969) [emphasis mine]
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
As does your position.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Rolexes are the best currency for larger sums and are actually used for exactly that. You wear them on your wrist and if you clothe accordingly they're not even suspicious when crossing a border.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
What advantage can you think of that a $1000 bill has over 10 x $100 bills?
I can dream up a few, like if I want to bribe my congressman maybe I don't need as many envelopes, or on those days where I need to shift $20,000,000 in cash it's a few pounds lighter so the shipping is cheaper.
But none of these would make me "strongly favor" bringing it back.
Moving an account from one bank to another and wanting it to be credited the same day. Er... without paying for a wire transfer.
Shopping in Manhattan. The last time I was in the Williams-Sonoma store they had a $1500 bread knife.
It doesn't affect me so I don't really care--I can count the number of times I've walked around with more than $1,000 in cash on me on the fingers of one hand--but there are certainly people whom it affects.
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Note that the article says "take out of circulation" not make illegal, so you would still be able to carry 500 EUR; and since Finland is in the Schengen area, you can take a ferry or go to Sweden without going through customs where they would still be legal. And let's not get started on a 1300 km. border with Russia; Russia would of course enforce a ban on 500 EUR notes. At least in the article the head of the Finnish Central Bank is against the idea (I know, I know, I read the article)
Mine are only available in brutal dictatorships however, while yours are available anywhere crime exists.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
One person giving their own money to another person should never be against the law. The only part of a transaction that can be illegal is the other side of it, the thing purchased for money. For example, when buying a stolen car, it should be illegal for the thief to give you the stolen property, but it should not be illegal for you to give him the cash.
--- wad
I've possibly seen a 200€ or 500€ bank note once or twice in my life. This has no affect on me what so ever and I suspect that people who actually have lots of money don't use those notes either. They are like the 1 and 2 cent coin. They have practically 0 utility in any meaningful transactions and just make everyone's lives harder.