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Debian Forked Over Systemd
jaromil writes: The so called "Veteran Unix Admin" collective has announced that the fork of Debian will proceed as a result of the recent systemd controversy. The reasons put forward are not just technical; included is a letter of endorsement by Debian Developer Roger Leigh mentioning that "people rely on Debian for their jobs and businesses, their research and their hobbies. It's not a playground for such radical experimentation." The fork is called "Devuan," pronounced "DevOne." The official website has more information.
Thank you for being a friend
Traveled down the road and back again
Your heart is true, you're a pal and a cosmonaut.
And if you threw a party
Invited everyone you knew
You would see the biggest gift would be from me
And the card attached would say, thank you for being a friend.
He's at school right now, but wants to be a rapper.
I thought this was (or: started as) a joke?
Good luck on maintaining init scripts for every single project that already (and those that surely will) move to systemd!
But that website is atrocious suck. Top AND bottom panes which don't move and serve no purpose other than to obscure the window? What the hell is this shit?
I wonder if they will leverage the systemd shim 'uselessd' ? It has a less-than-great name, though looks well written and regularly updated.
https://bitbucket.org/bcsd/uselessd/raw/linux-devel/NEWS
Never let sysadmins name anything. They couldn't find one single marketing / PR person to test that name?
...a fork of Debian,
Such a thing is unheard of in Debian's 20-odd year history.
I wonder what the impact of this fork will be on Debian-proper.
Devuan will do its best to stay minimal and abide to the UNIX philosophy of "doing one thing and doing it well"
I don't need a kitchen sink in my computer, or my computer in the kitchen sink. It's not like chocolate and peanut butter. I wish them the best.
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
GCC was forked successfully to egcs
XFree86 was forked successfully to xorg
FreeBSD was forked successfully to netbsd and dragondflybsd
OpenOffice was forked successfully to libreoffice
Now it's the debian's turn to be forked. Good luck to everyone.
I will stick with systemd version, which works fast and provides an actually exiting startup manager.
Hey, just wanted to let you know that the lyric you quoted is incorrect.
Thank you for being a friend
Traveled down the road and back again
Your heart is true, you're a pal and an in flagrante.
And if you threw a party
Invited everyone you knew
You would see the biggest gift would be from me
And the card attached would say, thank you for being a friend.
I have corrected the lyric above. It's a sub rosa reference to the steamy lesbian three-way relationship in this show. Ever wonder what "the biggest gift" is that they reference in the song? Use your imagination.
Hell, even the show title is a reference to their off-screen kinky sex play.
To be honest this new Debian seems Juan-derful. They've clearly made this decision based on a lot of technical experience, based on their webpage being of the highest quality. I look forward to continuing to write my startup scripts in Dash!
But maybe it'll remove the obstructionist anti-systemd whiners for a while, so Debian can get on with things that matter.
Climate Progress - Hell and High Water
They should fork Ubuntu instead. Packages are more current
Then just call it DevOne and be done with it. Stop with the words play and the phonetic cuteness, not everyone speaks english and spanish. If I read "Devuan" I'm going to pronounce "Dév-u-en" (french).
Get free satoshi (Bitcoin) and Dogecoins
No mention of "Devuan" here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd
I was just thinking that what's holding back the Linux community is the lack of yet another distro.
2015 will surely be the year of the Linux Desktop now!
Who cares, "http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/Linux_Distribution_Timeline.svg", look at the debian(forked) based distros.
It seems to me this SystemD and Wayland/Mir hatred is mostly coming from those who are using FreeBSD and other Unix OS's. Linux is not Unix and it will keep changing with the times for the better. If you don't like it there are other linux distros without SystemD that you can use or just fork your own distro.
Still no mention of Devuan here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd
They should create a separate wikipedia page for Devuan.
The sarcasm on this site is usually a bit more obvious. Needless to say...or maybe not...Debian is the most forked linux distribution on the planet. Its the prison b!tch of distros ;-)
“The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.” --Margaret Thatcher
“The problem with open source is that you eventually run out of other people's work.”--Me
Verizon had to deal with this by spending a gazillion dollars on TV advertising that they hadn't anticipated coming out of the gate. Lots and lots of people saw the name and equated it with words like "very" or "verify" so they were pronouncing it VAIR-uh-zonn instead of how the marketdroids wanted it pronounced. Dumb ass name cost them a lot of $$ in "consumer re-education" efforts.
Far more important than removing systemd
I really miss installing slackware from a 6" tall stack of floppies. Much like the sysv init, floppies are a tried and proven technology and we should accept that CDROMs and God forbid, DVDs are just far too radical of an experiment.
. We also need trusted technologies like token ring networks. Just look at what kind of radical experimentation is going on with ethernet: they can't even agree what kind of ethernet we should use, should it be 10 base-t, or maybe 100 base-t or how about 1000 base-t, just too radical changes, we need to stick with what is tried and proven for veteran administrators, like token ring.
Debian will probably continue on its way of becoming a desktop user distro. I do know a lot of sysadmins that are now eager to switch to the first good systemd-free Debian fork.
It'll be called DevOne and the maintenance will be straight forward. Everything will be the same as Devuan except for the name!
On the one hand, forking is what drives Free Software. It allows us to innovate, adapt software to new needs, etc. Without it, the FOSS community would not be as strong as it is.
On the other hand, Debian's board took a vote, and the anti-systemd people lost. Democracy happened. Democracy is good. Those people who created this fork are a bunch of malcontents that are whining because they didn't get their way. This isn't a "downstream branch" like Ubuntu, which strengthens the community by sending patches upstream. This is breaking up of a strong community, and it's now going to be inherently weaker.
Diversity is a good thing. I understand that, with increasing use of Linux as a desktop OS by people who don't run servers, systemd makes a lot of sense for some people.
I am the primary admin on servers in three different states. The benefits of using init for remote admin outweigh the simplicity and user-friendliness of systemd on my laptop.
I switched from Mandrake to Debian almost fifteen years ago when I first started doing heavy remote admin, I'll make a change again now, and the world will keep on spinning. Having both approaches is a good thing.
Stop-Prism.org: Opt Out of Surveillance
It's worse. Pottering is paid by Microsoft to destroy the Linux community. Every. Single. Thing. he touches is crap, mostly pointless, controversial, and breaks everything. I have no idea why people don't see this.
Just finished installing a FreeBSD system after 15 years. Python, Apache, mod_wsgi, KDE and Firefox are good to go (though Apache is with worker rather than prefork).
Hope Devuan works out, will be watching/trying it closely. Otherwise jessie-without-systemd might be my last Debian system.
Have been using Unix/Linux for 30 years, Debian for 10. Have worked to convert a few hundred servers at my company from Fedora/RH to Debian. Sad way to go.
(Captcha: forking!!)
Where is the slashot "like" button? I feel this is the case where it's needed, and also maybe a "don't like" ... :)
'Nuff said.
Why don't you just follow the links in the post?
"Devuan is spelled in Italian and it is pronounced just like "DevOne" in English." http://devuan.org/
And to me it sounds great.
This whole systemd cluster fuck and the way various factions of the FOSS world are reacting to it (including most of the people who've commented above) are a perfect illustration of why Linux will never become a major factor on the desktop/laptop until they have a group personality transplant.
Nothing, and I mean not one single thing, pleases Microsoft more re:Linux than seeing these dumpster fired erupt, projects fork, etc. It results in more complexity and confusion, and drives the OS ever further away from being a serious option for mainstream computer users.
But no one here cares about any of that; you're all too happy flinging shit at each other to figure out you're merely entertaining the people with the keys to your cage.
I used to be a sys admin, but that was years ago and currently I only use Linux on the desktop. I don't suppose that someone could explain to me (or just give me a link to an explanation): what is systemd exactly, what does it change, and why do people both love and hate it so much?
I've seen enough of these stories now to kind of get the feeling that it's mostly admins who hate this, and they mostly hate it because it's change and it screws up their configs. Is that right? Is there any other reason to hate it? I have no idea what the motivation is on the other side.
I don't suppose someone has a good article or explanation about why the entire systemd thing is a hot issue in the first place?
BeauHD. Worst editor since kdawson.
Soon I'll announce the project. Systemd is simply a bullet in the head.
I've expected some OpenBSD like webpage from such a collective as Veteran Unix Admins, not this purple-orange atrocity. DevOne? Is that for Devs or for Sysadmins? And GitHub as primary development platform? Also don't forget to talk about correctness and The Old Ways(TM) and ask for donations on the same page. Deranged Unix Admins would have been a better fit...
Anyway, putting aside my opinion, let me wish you good luck.
This isn't a "downstream branch" like Ubuntu, which strengthens the community by sending patches upstream. This is breaking up of a strong community, and it's now going to be inherently weaker.
Have you ever read the Canonical CLA?
From a Linux Journal article by Ian Murdock in 1994:
As the Debian developers create their pieces, they follow strict guidelines for constructing and maintaining these pieces, called packages. Because these guidelines are followed, each package can be dropped into the system independently without damaging or interfering with programs from other packages. By working with a set of consistent rules and with identical tools, the volunteers can and do create a truly modular system.
Nuff said.
This page accidentally left blank
but it's just not working.
Democracy happened. Democracy is good.
There are examples in history of democracy going awfuly wrong.
This is breaking up of a strong community, and it's now going to be inherently weaker.
Are you suggesting that people working on an FOSS project should be forced to continue even after said project has taken a direction they are in moral disagreement with ?
The name sounds so much like a joke that maybe someone is intentionally trying to sow more discord in the community. Or Maybe English isn't their native language and they don't know how bad it looks in English? It might look less ridiculous in Spanish. In either case, many people won't take something that is spelled "Devuan" seriously, and there will be a lot of arguing.
Developers were like "Systemd?! Fork u Debian!" /gloat
You obviously have no idea why systemd isn't portable. Its whole point of existence is process management using cgroups. Shame on the kernel devs for not writing cgroups into every OS's kernel! Oh wait, that's retarded. And guess what else you can't run on Mac OSX or Windows? Your SysV init scripts. Hell, those aren't usually portable between distributions; systemd is more compatible. You're also wrong about GNOME; their continued policy is to keep the loosest possible dependency on systemd, and that only because they need the features of logind. Write a replacement, and they will use it.
Whenever other kernels support compatible features you can argue about portability. It sounds like you have some code you need to get writing.
Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
uselessd is a great name. What does uselessd do? Very little, which is the point.
Devuan is a stupid name. What does Devuan do? Rob people and get shot by the cops.
The Lead Dev (Jsomething) has maintained a distro before.
He's an Italian guy with an afro.
His old distro was one of the only that supported wireless way back when.
So I'd say they have some talent already that can pull it off.
Sounds like they're starting small, join and they can go bigger.
It isn't showing up yet, but I am putting my money where my mouth is. I encourage anyone that used to donate to Debhat, change over to Devuan.
Debian devs are feminists and SJWs, they like change for the sake of change and to defeat "the man". They care nothing for "white male tears" even though most of them are that.
Debian excludes game due to author's views on women.
A DFSG complaint opensource casino video game was
recently posted to the debian bug tracker as a request
for packaging, as is the standard method for pursuing
such things in debian.
The bug was quickly closed, tagged as "won't fix"
The reason given by one of the debian developers
alluded to the author's opinion on women:
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bi...
The piece of software in question is licensed
under the GPL and is one of the only of it's
kind for linux (ascii-art console slot machine software)
Debian packages many ascii-art / text console
video games of similar quality.
Is professing inclusive social views now a hard requirement
for being allowed to contribute to free software projects?
#gamergate #geekfeminism
Eg, many people claim it's monolithic. In fact, it's made of ~100 daemons and applications and the init process isn't that big. Much much smaller than the Linux kernel itself, which a big monolithic kernel.
Whether something is monolithic is not about the number of separate processes, but rather about how tightly coupled they are.
Well, why fork? Why not team up with Slackware?
I hate both SystemD AND Init. Can I have something else? I thought Linsux was about chOOOOIIIIIce!!11!
bonus: catcha: "reform"
This was inevitable. Some years ago Debian welcomed do-nothing women into the fold (Debian-women)
They then kicked out any anti-feminist man from Debian (example: Ted Walther). Today any new
debian developer is vetted by the debian-women.
Techis love feminists. They love social justice warriors. They love the world they live in
where they are eternally denied power, respect, so on and so forth. They enjoy being
cattle prodded towards "Strong" women, and denied young girls.
They love this change that has occured in the world: it becoming a woman's world, rather than a man's.
They love that they would be imprisoned if they ever tried to marry a young girl
(Allowed in the Old Testament: Deuteronomy 22 28-29, hebrew).
They love to be hearded and forced. That is the kind of men they are.
And thus, is it any wonder, that They love the SystemD.
So many OSS projects have Swahili sounding names that I am getting really sick of it
I know that "Devuan" name is stupid, but at the very least it doesn't come out sounding like yet another Swahili project
go here to fight the root cause: boycottlinux.org
Just finishing sending my $40 donation to Devuan. I hope they raise millions and that it starves Debian of funding for years to come. They don’t deserve our money anymore. Debian is now an embarrassment to the Linux community. The Debian leadership ought to be ashamed for compromising the elegance, familiarity, and integrity that so many of us have come to cherish. In addition, I am now firmly convinced that Debian's leadership has been infiltrated by evil outsiders intent on derailing that which we have worked so hard to develop over the years: a great Unix-like operating system with a wonderful package manager that together comprise a distribution that works well on both the server and the desktop.
The sysvinit init system was never broken and it worked great. It’s stable. It’s well-documented. It’s cross-platform. It’s well-established and it’s reliable. It’s hand-editable, orders of magnitude smaller in codebase size, and fully open for examination on runtime deployments with general purpose text editors. I was shocked to find that a substantial percentage of Debian developers maintained indifferent/neutral attitudes when it came time to vote on maintaining a distribution that did not favor a specific init system.
It is now time to leave Debian. The leadership seems corrupt at the highest levels. They are now actively censoring internal dissent by banning discussion of init systems in their IRC chat channels – claiming that “init rants” are “killing the fun”. Their decision to ram systemd down my throat as an end user has destroyed all the respect I had held for Debian over all these years. You can go see for yourself: go visit irc.debian.org, and tell someone on a channel that you don’t like systemd, only to be hounded out of the chat room by admins and labeled a troll by real trolls and told that you can take it or leave it. It’s a rotten attitude, it seems systemic, and it’s alienating the critical sysadmin userbase that reinforces Debian’s presence on the server side, which is not a territory you want to lose – and he who rules the server can exert great influence over the client. That's something Microsoft has known all too well for years.
I’ve been using Linux continuously since the late 90s and I’ve never seen anything like this. Systemd’s architecture reeks reminiscent of Microsoft Windows’s services system and registry. The people who designed Systemd are obviously incompetent hacks with cavalier attitudes and a clear disregard for open standards and proven architectures.
Binary logs? Are you kidding me?
Merging classic disparate daemons together for a few seconds faster boot time? You’ve got to be nuts!
Introducing tons of potential new security vulnerabilities to one of the last remaining reputable high quality distributions on earth (but the way things are going, not for very much longer)? Genius!
Obsoleting many of the Linux command line tools that I spent my valuable time mastering (and they worked great, too) – just for a few seconds more boot time and a little bit of enhanced process control and binary logs? Thanks a lot, asshole!
Thanks for violating the philosophy that made Unix an international powerhouse! Turning the beloved Linux system that I fell in love with due to Microsoft's disregard to reason, and invested my career as a developer and system administrator, turning it into a scary alien freak-child of hack developers who want to be all fancy and look contemporary so they can buff up their brag-heavy resumes at the misery of end users?
This is absolutely absurd. Screw you Debian leadership! Devuan gets my money now. The $40 I sent them is only the beginning. If you care about the future of the Linux and open source community, I encourage you to do the same, and then some.
#systemdgate.
Prat.
Watch this Heartland Institute video
Pulse Audio sucks resources and is at best a mediocre sound solution. The CD ripping/library solution tied to it routinely failed to scan my music library. As long as systemd is that quality I expect it will get the same results. I do not install Pulse Audio and dropped Fedora because of systemd. LP can sink down a rat hole and the Linux distro world will all the better for it.
I have switched back to slackware. I have added three ARM systems to my stacks of x86 and it is good to have a consistent OS between them all.
Its faster than Windows 7 across the board...
We hear this all the time from Windows lovers. As though speed is the single most burning issue for users. I've never noticed any particular speed issue with Windows 7. On the other hand, users are seriously slowed down when their knowledge base is discarded by wholesale (and random) changes to the user interface (Ribbon, Win8, ...)
Of course! What do you expect? Although Linux runs on laptops, HW makers really only test using drivers for Windows. And laptops these days have so many differentiating (ie. proprietary) features, getting things (especially suspend/hibernate) working is a challenge, even in Windows. And this will never change.
systemd is a solution to a non-problem. It highlights the wagon rut that Linux devs have become stuck in. Namely:
1) Because the HW vendors ignore it, Linux (still/always) has a problems supporting laptop hardware: accelerated video, wireless, suspend/resume, etc.
2) Since we can't solve the above we just tinker with other stuff, adding even more breakage to that caused by problem 1).
Basically, we're painting the deck of the Titanic, as it lists to 30 degrees, while complaining that our "Wet Paint" signs keep sliding off the deck.
to Debian Lendows 1. That's a more appropriate name :)
... let's just say agencies and contractors that manage their systems want little to do with RHEL 7. Everyone I've met who has to deal with it groans and rolls their eyes. Right now, just making 6 sing is the focus.
Just holding out for something better to come along.
Keep in mind, these guys are being managed or were brought on by the guys who cut their teeth of VMS, HP-UX and Solaris. It's like holy christ do you want us to move to Windows? I hear noises about FreeBSD and OpenBSD with increasingly frequency too.
And yet more complexity, that's what we really need! Maybe we could have each daemon which is managed by systemd run in it's own virtual machine. Think how awesome that would be in a distribution...
I'm glad about this. I'll switch my systems to this.
The problem with SystemD is that is not just an init system. Or a new init system. It touches everything -- sound, hardware, wifi, network interfaces generally, video cards, everything. The likelihood of fairly big things going wrong with such a complex system is almost certain.
Complexity increase the risk of failure. SystemD is very complex, touching the use of resources of nearly every kind on a computer.
Redhat has LOTS of developers that can fix things. Plus their system runs on a subset of available hardware, which is sure to be tested and work.
Debian while having a good pool of developers, has nowhere near the resources of Redhat. More cynical minds might say that SystemD was pushed hard by Redhat to create a situation where nothing works at all, outside of Redhat, to force people to get support contracts and switch. Why Redhat even has a tool to switch distros to Redhat based systems!
The risk for people running critical systems is that SystemD will lock up and fail with complex interactions between software and hardware. This is ironically most likely for desktop systems -- where it matters a lot if your sound card works, or video driver works --- and less on servers where who cares if your video driver or sound card fails as long as it continues to pump out webpages and be administered via SSH.
This is good news for me as a Desktop Ubuntu user as now I have a Debian apt-get type alternative to run on my laptops, which I use for business and leisure.
Hell yea. I can't believe this nonsense is believed so widely in the open source community. If it were true that linking to a dynamic library made your program a derived work, then we wouldn't have msys/mingw since linking to Microsoft's libraries would invalidate the GPL license on all that open source software that would be a derived work of Windows.
XP was buggy crap and I've lost count of the serious infections, driver errors and barfed updates that required complete rebuild to fix. Win was s massive improvement and I finally quit desktop Linux to use it full time. Windows 8 was the equivalent of Ubuntu Unity and equally reviled by end users. Win.8.1 addresses all the problems of 8 and is a seriously fast and stable OS so long as it wasn't an upgrade.
As far as Linux sound is concerned nothing beats OSS. Yes, I am that old.
Hello Erich Schubert, you piece of shit.
Jaromil is not MikeeUSA.
MikeeUSA is not Jaromil.
They have never met.
MikeeUSA is not running the fork, no one ever claimed he has
anything to do with the fork.
Jaromil is a programmer of MuSe, a wonderful midi software package
that you likely have never used because you never bothered to
attempt to release any music. Jaromil is also a distro dev
of the dyne:bolic distribution. He has experiance creating
linux distros.
MikeeUSA is a not-nearly as good programmer. He is a programmer
of GPC-Slots 2, as an early project, and various other forks
of games. He also makes media of every type for opensource games.
He (MikeeUSA) is not boss enough to be mentioned in the same sentance
as Jaromil. You are a fuck for doing that.
You are a fuck. You make programs and scripts to data mine.
You can go to hell you fucking shill piece of shit.
You are also a male-feminist.
Hopefully you die somehow sooner rather than later.
Perhaps Russia will invade, kill you and the rest of the
progressive feminists, and force everyone to be Orthodox.
Who knows.
You also enjoy spreading libels and falsehoods, aswell
as deleting corrections.
As is known: You are a fuck.
Erich Schubert
PS: Learn english. You do not seem to understand it well enough.
America crushed your country, learn the conquer's tounge please. Thank you.
You keep posting a link to this:
Hi,
This is code by someone who routinely trolls Debian. I doubt we want
any more poisonous upstreams in Debian, so I at least would prefer this
never get packaged.
He doesn't mention anything about the author's views on women. But you do.
This is known as "giving yourself away".
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
Jaromil is not MikeeUSA.
MikeeUSA is not Jaromil.
They have never met.
MikeeUSA is not running the fork, no one ever claimed he has
anything to do with the fork.
Jaromil is a programmer of MuSe, a wonderful midi software package
that you likely have never used because you never bothered to
attempt to release any music. Jaromil is also a distro dev
of the dyne:bolic distribution. He has experiance creating
linux distros.
MikeeUSA is a not-nearly as good programmer. He is a programmer
of GPC-Slots 2, as an early project, and various other forks
of games. He also makes media of every type for opensource games.
He (MikeeUSA) is not boss enough to be mentioned in the same sentance
as Jaromil. You are a fuck for doing that.
You are a fuck. You make programs and scripts to data mine.
You can go to hell you fucking shill piece of shit.
You are also a male-feminist.
Hopefully you die somehow sooner rather than later.
Perhaps Russia will invade, kill you and the rest of the
progressive feminists, and force everyone to be Orthodox.
Who knows.
You also enjoy spreading libels and falsehoods, aswell
as deleting corrections.
As is known: You are a fuck.
Erich Schubert
PS: Learn english. You do not seem to understand it well enough.
America crushed your country, learn the conquer's tounge please. Thank you.
Jaromil made MuSe, please try to keep up.
MikeeUSA has nothing to do with the fork.
http://youtu.be/VSbNumR9Z8k
That was never claimed.
Jaromil wrote Muse you idiot.
Learn english.