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Debian Forked Over Systemd
jaromil writes: The so called "Veteran Unix Admin" collective has announced that the fork of Debian will proceed as a result of the recent systemd controversy. The reasons put forward are not just technical; included is a letter of endorsement by Debian Developer Roger Leigh mentioning that "people rely on Debian for their jobs and businesses, their research and their hobbies. It's not a playground for such radical experimentation." The fork is called "Devuan," pronounced "DevOne." The official website has more information.
He's at school right now, but wants to be a rapper.
But that website is atrocious suck. Top AND bottom panes which don't move and serve no purpose other than to obscure the window? What the hell is this shit?
Yes, systemd was started as a joke. Kind of like the 16 year old who points his father's gun at a friend as a joke. Both can become all too real very quickly, and end in disaster.
Never let sysadmins name anything. They couldn't find one single marketing / PR person to test that name?
...a fork of Debian,
Such a thing is unheard of in Debian's 20-odd year history.
I wonder what the impact of this fork will be on Debian-proper.
GCC was forked successfully to egcs
XFree86 was forked successfully to xorg
FreeBSD was forked successfully to netbsd and dragondflybsd
OpenOffice was forked successfully to libreoffice
Now it's the debian's turn to be forked. Good luck to everyone.
I will stick with systemd version, which works fast and provides an actually exiting startup manager.
An exiting startup manager? Is that a less destructive alternative to the HCF (Halt and Catch Fire) instruction?
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
But maybe it'll remove the obstructionist anti-systemd whiners for a while, so Debian can get on with things that matter.
Climate Progress - Hell and High Water
Then just call it DevOne and be done with it. Stop with the words play and the phonetic cuteness, not everyone speaks english and spanish. If I read "Devuan" I'm going to pronounce "Dév-u-en" (french).
Get free satoshi (Bitcoin) and Dogecoins
the BSDs are doing it for a long time.
I was just thinking that what's holding back the Linux community is the lack of yet another distro.
2015 will surely be the year of the Linux Desktop now!
I updated my Debian unstable workstation a while back. Systemd got pulled in. My workstation then failed to boot properly. I've used Debian unstable for many years, and that was the first time an update completely broke the boot process. That is, of course, totally unacceptable. It's also why my workstation now runs Slackware, and why I will never again deploy any Linux distro that runs systemd. I know I'm not alone, either. Debian is losing long time, experienced users and contributors. This isn't good for the health and future viability of the project.
Really? Posix dictates a particular init system? I don't think you really understand what Posix means.
More to the point, switching to FreeBSD/OpenBSD was always an option anyway. FreeBSD last forked at version 4/5 with DragonflyBSD coming out of it.
Forking the OS is something that should happen when idiotic choices are made, but popularity of a fork doesn't mean it's better. VHS vs Beta.
My personal opinion of the matter is that all OS's need to go back to the drawing board and redesign around multicore and the architecture of GPU's, as only Windows ever really cared about multithreading, and decades of single-threading stupidity has finally hit the wall because nobody knows how to do a multithreaded renderer for games. Likewise idiots at Google and Firefox still single-thread crap in the browser, so crappy javascript has no problem locking up the user interface.
Still no mention of Devuan here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd
You've got a point there.
The sarcasm on this site is usually a bit more obvious. Needless to say...or maybe not...Debian is the most forked linux distribution on the planet. Its the prison b!tch of distros ;-)
Tell that to LibreOffice.
Far more important than removing systemd
I'm an admin. I don't want to be excited about startup managers. If I get excited by init, it means something is broken.
That's actually dead simple to do. Most already have one that's been stable for years.
When your career depends on things working, an "exciting" startup manager (which is what I presume you meant) is the last thing you want.
In fact, you want things to be as un-exciting as possible.
What are you talking about, no it doesn't. You're literally saying that with no idea what you're talking about. It doesn't kill anything. It's a modern init system for a modern os. don't be silly. It's a ridiculous idea that startup scripts should be written in SHELL. Solaris went away from it and did pretty well. OS X went away from it and did pretty well. FreeBSD wants to go away from it.
When you say Solaris 'did pretty well', what do you mean by that? It doesn't seem to be doing at all well in terms of popularity in the data center. Same with OSX, its use in the data center is MINIMAL.
In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
Completely unacceptable. I mean it's called "unstable" how dare it be unstable...
Personally, I think an entering shutdown manager would be more exciting.
Ahh, the usual misrepresentation of why we oppose systemd that always shows up. Calling us haters while trying to reframe the discussion away from the real issues isn't convincing - it just adds evidence that systemd gains position by propagand and politics instead of design and implementation quality. No, you are not going to scare us away form linux. Some may retreat to FreeBSD, which is fine (it's a good OS). The rest of us are going to stay with linux, even if it large parts of linux leave and become part of the systemd monoculture. We've been here before, after all, over a decade ago.
The varied technical issues with systemd are bad enough, but they have already been discussed, and are a central reason why the sysadmins ae forking Debian. Many systemd advocates try and steer discussions back to these technical issues - while denying that systemd doesn't actually work for everybody - to avoides talking about the fundamental design problems and philosophical changes that systemd forces on Linux. While it is currently popular to "move fast and break things", those of us with more experience understand the value in not breaking everything. None of this means that those that are better served by systemd shoudl stop using it! We're only angry about the attemts to force a monoculture by breaking compatability for political reasons, when there as no technical need. You know, like Microsoft does with their "not invented here" attitude.
Still, those are philosophical issues about the software itself. That is not the primary problem some of us have with systemd, which is not about technical problems, but is instead an attack on our prefered method of licencing. The systemd takeover is an attempt to separate Linux and many userspace tools from the GPL, so that software can be used under the LGPL terms instead.
What is the big difference between GPL and LGPL? Linkage. Linking to a GPL library requires you to follow certain requirements if you link against it, while the LGPL specifically allows taht usage. (k)dbus provides the workaround, by replacing what would be a normal function call into a library with a "IPC". It's slower, but so what, computers are way faster than needed. In the end, while you can still choose to release your code as GPL, if you have to use an IPC mechanism to do anything useful the license requirements that will actually apply ends up being being more like the LGPL. For a better explanation, see this post by stevel in the Gentoo forums.
Well, if I wanted to release under the LGPL, I would. What I'm not going to do is undermine my choice of license just because a bunch of embedded developers (and others) want to use what were traditionally GPL projects without having to be bound by the copyleft requirements. If this was proprietary software, you would call that kind of behavior "stealing" or "piracy".
So don't bother with claims about "faster desktops" or "easier programming". When your solution also bundles a forced monoculture ("unifying the difference betwen distributions") and contains a loophole around the licence some of us chose it is simply not an option for those of us that place "freedom" as the most important feature. /how much does JTRIG (or their equivalent) pay for these propaganda attempts, anyway? //It's a waste of money regardless, given how transparent these comments are ///some of this post is reused from a post I made on HN
Ce n'est pas une signature automatique.
Ok, I'll get on that right away.
In open-source, forking is as healthy as democracy, perhaps moreso.
For every problem, there is at least one solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
Diversity is a good thing. I understand that, with increasing use of Linux as a desktop OS by people who don't run servers, systemd makes a lot of sense for some people.
I am the primary admin on servers in three different states. The benefits of using init for remote admin outweigh the simplicity and user-friendliness of systemd on my laptop.
I switched from Mandrake to Debian almost fifteen years ago when I first started doing heavy remote admin, I'll make a change again now, and the world will keep on spinning. Having both approaches is a good thing.
Stop-Prism.org: Opt Out of Surveillance
It's worse. Pottering is paid by Microsoft to destroy the Linux community. Every. Single. Thing. he touches is crap, mostly pointless, controversial, and breaks everything. I have no idea why people don't see this.
LibreOffice is developed by (most of) the original OpenOffice team. They resigned enmasse from Oracle once it was clear that Oracle didn't want to continue putting money into the project.
.: Semper Absurda
This isn't a "downstream branch" like Ubuntu, which strengthens the community by sending patches upstream
That's a groundless assertion - there is no reason (technical or political) that Devuan wouldn't send patches upstream for general packages.
Those people who created this fork are a bunch of malcontents that are whining because they didn't get their way.
So according to you, people should devote their time and effort for free to software they don't like, and if they don't they're "whiny malcontents." One of the key aspects of FOSS is the freedom to run and work on the software that you like and support. Once you understand that, you can stop whining about decisions you disagree with and get to work on something useful. In fact, that's the whole idea behind this fork.
This is breaking up of a strong community, and it's now going to be inherently weaker.
More groundless FUD. Do you think whining about this is helping FOSS or Debian?
.: Semper Absurda
You know, I was inclined to disagree with your statement on Pottering, but in attempting to build a multiseat installation with properly-functioning sound at each seat I really can't. I've also heard horror-stories from other pulseaudio users where some feature they needed that shouldn't be verboten wasn't available because it didn't apply to his specific installation, so it was ruled-out, and made things worse for the community as a result.
.deb, so that there's no confusion about attempting to install a systemd package on a sysv box.
I'm kind of hopeful that the Ubuntu people will consider dropping Debian for Devuan, and that perhaps the Devuan project can start working more closely with the Ubuntu people, possibly even becoming a dev distro from which the desktop distro is derived, kind of like what Ubuntu does with Debian now. If I read it correctly, they moved to systemd because Debian did, not because they wanted to.
It might also be time to look at a new file extension beyond
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
My main assertion is that many forks are done with good intentions. This new fork, on the other hand, is not necessarily based on the best motivations.
I used to be a sys admin, but that was years ago and currently I only use Linux on the desktop. I don't suppose that someone could explain to me (or just give me a link to an explanation): what is systemd exactly, what does it change, and why do people both love and hate it so much?
I've seen enough of these stories now to kind of get the feeling that it's mostly admins who hate this, and they mostly hate it because it's change and it screws up their configs. Is that right? Is there any other reason to hate it? I have no idea what the motivation is on the other side.
I don't suppose someone has a good article or explanation about why the entire systemd thing is a hot issue in the first place?
BeauHD. Worst editor since kdawson.
Very droll. But misses the point. Historically, Debian unstable was usually absolutely solid. Better than the stable releases of many distributions. I should know, I've run it on my desktop(s) for the last 14 years. I've had maybe two minor issues in that entire time. Its quality has plummeted in recent months as all this "modern" stuff has been jammed in without regard to proper backward compatibility.
You might this this is amusing. I'm upset that the distribution I've spent the last 16 years working on has been subverted by developers pushing software with major design and implementation issues, and no formal specifications for its many interfaces. For something which aims to become the base of all Linux systems, its current form is pretty amateur, and its lack of attention to detail in breaking existing installs on upgrade in various different ways is breathtaking. This is largely down to the difference in attitude between the older developers such as myself who spent huge amounts of time testing things worked on all sorts of different configurations, and the systemd crowd who simply tell you you're doing things the wrong way and must change, even if you've got a configuration which was supported for the last decade by Debian. The big change here is that systemd has broken compatibility with Debian's past supported configurations by not caring to support the full range of configurations the old sysv-rc/initscripts setup did; and its maintainers did not spend the necessary effort to ensure these setups were migrated and supported properly.
And my point is that ascribing to these developers a desire to maliciously weaken Debian is groundless and inflammatory.
The motivation is to have a Linux distribution which has 1) stability, 2) easy package management and 3) doesn't require systemd. Debian is a great place to start for (1) and (2), while having (3) means that the distro maintains compatibility with critical code on which many jobs depend, maintains stability while systemd is in flux and will appeal to users/admins who disagree with some of the key design decisions made in systemd. Seems legit to me.
Personally, I've been waiting for a fork like this, because I use Debian but don't like binary loggers or init systems with embedded QR encoders. I do like the approach taken by uselessd, which is to adopt the best parts about systemd while leaving out the questionable components (binary logging, embedded web server, etc.) and keeping a good separation of concerns between init and the rest of the system. On the other hand, I will be disappointed if Devuan requires SysV init the way other distros are requiring systemd. The worst part of the whole systemd debacle is all the pointless acrimony, but the second worst part might be the false dichotomies drawn between SysV and systemd as the "one old, bad way" and the "one new, good way." There's just a lot more to it than that - and it looks like this fork is going to be the only way to use Debian with SysV, systemd, uselessd, upstart or whatever gives you what you need from an init system.
.: Semper Absurda
Serious question: where is Stallman and the FSF on this? Seems like they'd be concerned, based on your post.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
Ubuntu also moved to systemd because everyone was moving to systemd. Before that, Ubuntu has their own init system called Upstart, and there was much debate in Debian on whether to use systemd or Upstart.
Of course, in the end, even people wanting sysvinit are obviously doing something wrong because they're not using sysvinit properly. Sysvinit has a daemon manager built into it yet it's only used for one daemon typically (getty).
Instead, we abuse it to run shell scripts that barely replicate that functionality that is already built into sysvinit. I mean, init monitors the processes it runs, restarts them as necessary, and if they fail by restarting too quickly, init waits 5 minutes before trying again. Which his what daemon management is.
Pottering doesn't work for MSFT, he works for the 3 letter agencies. Considering that MSFT would probably be a step up on the trust scale. Where does Pottering get his money? Red Hat...okay so where does RH get THEIR money? NSA,DoD, FBI,CIA, DoJ, something like 85% of their income is from .Gov institutions, most in the Intelligence community. if the 3 letter agencies quit buying RHEL tomorrow that company would be on the ropes.
So call me paranoid but I can't really blame anybody for not wanting something controlled by a company that is so tied to the spooks, after Snowden its just common sense.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
Interesting. I have to say I am also worried about software freedom, but not so much because of licensing.
I am worried because loosly coupled systems based on well defined interfaces are replaced by deeply integrated systems. This means that you cannot easily replace one part you do not like with another anymore. This is not only bad engineering, it also limits your freedom in a very real sense. This is the real problem with systemd - and not only with systemd
*Fellow Slackware user high-five!*
Although I've been with Slackware since long before the SystemD crap. Debian's been on a downward spiral ever since the hot-babe controversy, and probably before.
Even their logo is a downward spiral (okay that was a joke).
vi ~/.emacs # I'm probably going to Hell for this.
Multithreading is hard, man. And it's not the only way to do parallelism, either. It also can hit all with, for instance, cache coherence traffic blocking access to RAM.
IMO multithreading might be a good model for handling multiple IO streams and really performance-sensitive apps.
Chrome and Firefox's Electrolysis actually use multiprocessing, not multithreading, for their parallelism. Multiprocessing is often a much better parallel computation model, and much more Unixy.
vi ~/.emacs # I'm probably going to Hell for this.
From a Linux Journal article by Ian Murdock in 1994:
As the Debian developers create their pieces, they follow strict guidelines for constructing and maintaining these pieces, called packages. Because these guidelines are followed, each package can be dropped into the system independently without damaging or interfering with programs from other packages. By working with a set of consistent rules and with identical tools, the volunteers can and do create a truly modular system.
Nuff said.
This page accidentally left blank
Actually, floppies never were dependable nor durable. If you're not using PXE booting to install Linux, well, you're living in the past (and flash drives if you can't PXE boot for some reason).
I'm starting to think GNU is the problem with "GNU/Linux" these days.
If RedHat now = "The Man" then I think we can finally declare, Linux has won. Linux has taken over the world. Long Live Linus!
http://img.photobucket.com/alb...
First of all - thanks for an interesting comment. Your insight on licensing issues regarding use of systemd never occured to me.
Regarding your comment - I cant validate all your claims right now but I trust they are valid - in Your opinion why there is NO mention about licensing on the new fork site? The site is TL;DR to me as it is in my opinion yet another meaningless fork of Debian but I tried to search the site for terms like "license", "gpl" and there are exactly zero occurances of such terms. It seems to me as the authors of the fork didn't find your arguments about licensing as interesting to mention it.
So how exactly this fork is better for your goals?
If I was in situation in which licensing was critical to me I would use Gentoo since as far as I know it is only decent and recent distro that actually lets you choose init system to your liking.
Claiming the motivation of an IPC bus is the subversion of software freedom is ridiculous. IPC has existed in Linux since the dawn of time and so has subverting licensing restrictions been possible. Especially in embedded systems where the vendor puts the whole stack together and doesn't really need what dbus provides - service discovery. The one component that would give credence to your absurd delusion - an automatic interface generator for arbitrary libraries - is actually missing from dbus. And such a thing could be just as well be written to work over any IPC, HTTP, JSON-RPC or what have you, nobody seems to be boycotting those.
Decoupling functionality into separate processes can increase maintainability, security and stability.
Your trolling is bad and you should feel bad, if you want to attack someone for subverting software freedom, find a perp that's actually guilty.
Well, I'm a current Debian user, and I switched from testing to stable because of problems with systemd. OTOH, there's a good reason that it's called testing.
Still, while I don't hate systemd, I also don't trust it. My current intention is to remain on stable while things shake themselves out, and then decide what to do. And the Devuan timeline doesn't show it being available even as a "testing" distribution until next spring. (I gather the current version is sort of a compromise between prototype and unstable[sid], or even experimental.)
By the time I need to decide, I expect I'll know how things are going to shake out. But I expect that I'll be keeping an eye on Devuan, and a few others. And perhaps systemd won't be as bad as I expect. Still, any init system that marks problems with its logging system as "won't fix" is dubious. That the main logging system is binary just makes things much worse. So does expansions like having the "init system" include things like terminal manager, etc. It even makes me tempted to go back to Etch (yah, that's a rediculuous thing to suggest, as the current stable works fine without systemd).
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
That seems backwards. Based on this claim, systemd reduces the coupling between Linux and GNU tools, and allows each part to be replaced more easily.
You could replace your init system with your own in any distro. So yes, you could. Nothing is stopping you. thats what makes the antisystemd arguments absurd, you can replace it if you want.
> On the one hand, forking is what drives Free Software. It allows us to innovate,
> adapt software to new needs, etc. Without it, the FOSS community would not be
> as strong as it is.
Of course the ability of forking is great. I would compare it to a relationship - if at some point you realize that your goals or whatever are not in sync then you fork it is not easy comes with attached looses to both sides but it is but doable. And an obvious way to go if you can't go together.
BUT this is not a fork in my opinion. A fork it will be if we can get anything usable from it like a working distro in this case. But now it is just an other act of DRAMA. Like in relationship - you know I am forking right now! look this is my fork website! look i WILL fork. Geeesh than do fork and get over it.
These guys are behaving like overly attached boy/girl friend who in fact DOES NOT want to fork but uses threats that she/he will fork to force something on the other side.
I know it is simplification but really right now from my point of view it just looks like emotional drama.
As for techical merits in my own opinion. I dont care. I am not by any means a white bearded system admin. I use Linux profesionally and I like it. I really haven't noticed the whole systemd drama until it popped out in media. Professinaly I use RHEL and CentOS because I can run software on it for my employer and it is OK. We use Oracle, SAP, Zimbra and other products so for me it makes no real difference as what init system is used as far as it works.
In my personal systems I've used RH from like 5.0 release and I liked it. I used it till it separated into RHEL and Fedora - then I've used Fedora but around release 14 or some it becamed very annoying (lots of problems with distro upgrade, hardware etc.). Then I've started to evaluate other distros. Also got a RaspberryPi and tried Pidora on that. More annoyng than ever. Then I've tried Arch Linux and I got hooked imediately - works well on my home systems (server, workstation, laptop) and also on RaspberryPi. And it uses systemd in more fashinable way than Fedora (but things may have gone better - I've not touched it since 14). So I don't really get this systemd "controversy".
multiprocessing is just right for independed tasks (like different website tabs).
Historically, Debian unstable was usually absolutely solid.
Except for all the major changes it goes through. The introduction of udev, change to 2.2 and 2.4 kernels, all of those broke for me (though switching to 3.0 was fine but I think that was more of a marketing move than a major version change). Then there's application level problems such as config utilities breaking things like Apache when it jumped a major version.
The system is labelled as unstable. If it's stable it is a bonus. What you *think* it should be is irrelevant, it is provided without any guarantee to be bug free, or even a guarantee that it will boot.
The name sounds so much like a joke that maybe someone is intentionally trying to sow more discord in the community. Or Maybe English isn't their native language and they don't know how bad it looks in English? It might look less ridiculous in Spanish. In either case, many people won't take something that is spelled "Devuan" seriously, and there will be a lot of arguing.
Um, what I think it should be is entirely relevant. I was primarily responsible for maintaining sysvinit and the initscripts from squeeze through to the wheezy release and after, doing the testing and providing the guarantee that it would boot. I was the one who did the testing before uploading. Different VMs, different upgrade scenarios, bare metal on different architectures, Linux, kFreeBSD and HURD kernels. If I'd screwed up, people would have had unbootable systems and come shouting. The quality bar was higher then and we did pretty thorough testing; I'd like to think we did a pretty good job. I certainly was never responsible for systems becoming unbootable on upgrade.
You obviously have no idea why systemd isn't portable. Its whole point of existence is process management using cgroups. Shame on the kernel devs for not writing cgroups into every OS's kernel! Oh wait, that's retarded. And guess what else you can't run on Mac OSX or Windows? Your SysV init scripts. Hell, those aren't usually portable between distributions; systemd is more compatible. You're also wrong about GNOME; their continued policy is to keep the loosest possible dependency on systemd, and that only because they need the features of logind. Write a replacement, and they will use it.
Whenever other kernels support compatible features you can argue about portability. It sounds like you have some code you need to get writing.
Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
Yes, so what init system and service management are they going to use?
Is it meant just for servers? Then they could get away with sysvinit.
If this Debian derivative is meant for desktops too, then you want some type of the systemd solutions to service management, to dynamically change hostname, datetime, do hibernation, add/remove bluetooth/modem devices, multi-seat login, etc...
I think the options are: Upstart or OpenRC; the others are too obscure or untested.
Probably you would have to use the abandoned Consolekit to replace logind?
If you are unfamiliar, this is what (systemd-)logind does (and previously ConsoleKit did part of it):
from https://access.redhat.com/docu...
NB: The message above might reflect my opinion right now, but not necessarily tomorrow or next year.
That's only because Solaris is expensive. (As is the sun/oracle hardware if you're running it on that). Otherwise, its pretty damn stable even if you walk over and pull the power cords
(We have 7 Solaris boxes from the 1u pizza box to the M5000 running)
To have 'done pretty well' it would have to have captured market share.
For websites, probably the easiest usage to quantify, its less than 0.1%
http://w3techs.com/technologie...
Thats not less than 1%, thats less that zero point one percent.
Did pretty well didn't it.
Any idea the market share in other applications, say database servers for example?
In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
If gnome components depend specifically on systemd this seems to imply that there are no well-defined interfaces and the code is coupled, this has nothing to do with linking vs RPC over dbus.
That isn't caused by systemd, that is caused by gnome sucking. Something that has been getting worse every year since Gtk3. Maybe they were lazy? It is like a voodoo spell, "gnome gnome gnome dependency!!!!" with no specific technical analysis of a problem.
OK, let me have a go at this. Please excuse me for redundantly rewording the whole thing. I believe the particular wording will help convey my personal impression and point of view better, and will allow the reader to detect any errors in my thinking and correct me better.
Traditionally, Linux and most of its userspace is GPL. Some people like that. You could say it was absolutely vital in emergence of Linux as a viable system.
This wasn't perfect for business, so successively, license solutions which allowed system libraries to be used by commercial applications were found, and these libraries were licensed accordingly. Like GPL with exceptions, and then LGPL.
As number of commercial interests grew, so did the number of components licensed under LGPL. There have also been efforts to reduce binary coupling between systems, by using IPC/RPC protocols instead of calling foreign code directly. This was made to mitigate a particular kind dependency hell where one program at any particular version depends on the source of another program or component at some particular version. This makes updates and crossgrades easier, and allows software to evolve with less dependence on the underlying system. This benefits commercial software more than it benefits open-source software, though i believe it is a technical merit at least as much as it is a political one.
So far so good, or so bad, depending on your camp and bias.
And yet all of this is a red herring. Once something is LGPLed or GPLed, nobody can ever take it away from you, your freedom to use and modify this software. If you want to release your software as GPL, what prevents you from doing so?
Nothing technically, but the following limits its usefulness. RPC allows proprietary software to leverage the functionality of your GPL software, which might go against your intent, as RPC becomes the de facto interface of increasing number of components...
But have you considered that RPC has been used by proprietary software for a long time? Or even applications signed with GPL incompatible open source license like Apache. They just bundle their own RPC host, written in a GPL compatible license.
Considering this workaround, it pays to reconsider whether GPL is adequate towards heavily componentized (as opposed to mostly-monolithic) software in the first place. It might be that the whole linkage wording is a nonsensical idea, because it takes a completely arbitrary and very narrow view of the software composition and component reuse.
Yet finally, why would you sacrifice a technical merit just to attempt, in vain, to satisfy your political one?
Debian devs are feminists and SJWs, they like change for the sake of change and to defeat "the man". They care nothing for "white male tears" even though most of them are that.
Debian excludes game due to author's views on women.
A DFSG complaint opensource casino video game was
recently posted to the debian bug tracker as a request
for packaging, as is the standard method for pursuing
such things in debian.
The bug was quickly closed, tagged as "won't fix"
The reason given by one of the debian developers
alluded to the author's opinion on women:
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bi...
The piece of software in question is licensed
under the GPL and is one of the only of it's
kind for linux (ascii-art console slot machine software)
Debian packages many ascii-art / text console
video games of similar quality.
Is professing inclusive social views now a hard requirement
for being allowed to contribute to free software projects?
#gamergate #geekfeminism
go back to the drawing board and redesign around multicore and the architecture of GPU's
So Grand Central Dispatch available on OSX and FreeBSD?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
Oh, I didn't mean to imply that anyone was being malicious. Unwise, perhaps.
Eg, many people claim it's monolithic. In fact, it's made of ~100 daemons and applications and the init process isn't that big. Much much smaller than the Linux kernel itself, which a big monolithic kernel.
Whether something is monolithic is not about the number of separate processes, but rather about how tightly coupled they are.
If you think that "unstable" means "it will always work like a final product" you're a fucking moron.
RPC allows proprietary software to leverage the functionality of your GPL software, which might go against your intent, as RPC becomes the de facto interface of increasing number of components...
Honestly, I don't buy into the whole non-GPL can't link GPL argument in the first place.
Suppose I were to tell you to grab your copy of the 3rd paperback printing of Game of Thrones and look at the second sentence on page 320. Does posting that sentence make this post a violation of GRRM's copyright? Of course not - I didn't copy anything in his book - simply mentioning that it exists and that it contains a page 320 in no way makes this post a derivative work.
Well, when you link a binary to a shared object, all you do is write a bunch of cross references saying that this function call should be replaced with an address associated with this symbol. Then a linker will replace those references when your code is loaded. None of this involves copying anything. Assuming the shared object is in RAM already being used by something else, your OS isn't even copying the GPL code at all when this happens, but even if a copy were made it is an unmodified copy of the shared object which isn't being redistributed - ie it is permitted by the GPL.
Sure, everybody says that you can't link non-GPL code to GPL code, but I am not convinced that a court is certain to uphold this. I could see issues if you try to bundle GPL and non-GPL software into a single larger work, but if you distribute the non-GPL stuff without the GPL content that problem goes away.
And if you follow the money, you'd notice that a vast majority (we're talking what, 85%??) of code and funding for Linux at large is what? Red Hat.
I suspected connections to the spooks ever since they were in Arlington (you don't work or base your company near DC unless you want to stick your hands into that particular cookie jar all the way to your elbows.)
That said, much as I used to like Debian, and Ubuntu, lets not forget that Ubuntu forks over your search terms for sale. Unity is shaite (at least from my personal perspective) Gnome 3 is hated (don't know why, Unity is worse) KDE 4 is still as unstable as KDE3 used to be, but at least it resembles Windows far more so users who hate Microsoft can at least stay interface luddites until the sun dies of heat death.
Seriously... am I the only one who sees the hypocrisy here? Also, pulse audio sucks, great, wondrous. Am I the only one who notices that it makes no difference for VLC? I mean, I'm not exactly a netflix freak, but lets face it. There is NOTHING one can watch as videos online if one is a stickler to clean licensing. Neither Red Hat nor Debian off the bat are worth a shaite for the average consumer whom we as Linux IT people might want to lure away from Microsoft. Know why I renew my MS credentials each year? Because the average consumer wants Windows. They don't know anything. They couldn't navigate Microsoft Word. If the icons change? Pfffeh. They panic and freak out. Your phone is ringing that you broke their PC. "What's this fox thing? I want my "internet" back!!!"
And for the record, I had to sit and rebuild an entire set of apparmor profiles because Debian's Iceweasel doesn't come with them, and the firefox ones need combing through so one might as well make new ones. Ridiculous? Obviously. Does Debian ship updated profiles? Hell no. Make your own. How many users used to sandboxie and firefox in windows will go through the trouble to mess around with apparmor (or selinux, which at least comes configured in Redhat and Suse.)
Sorry to say folks, but Linux wasn't supposed to be neocommunism. Linux was supposed to be freedom.
On the other hand, look at sourceforge. Filezilla, which used to be fast and had very good support for crypto certs, self signed and otherwise, if one checks the herdfiles now, it is now published by some company out of Tel Aviv, and bundled with spyware and browser hijacks when downloaded from sourceforge. Now I'm stuck forcing IIS for my clients who run windows and need an FTP server, because I'm not willing to risk having to clean spyware off of mission critical machines if (more likely "when") a filezilla server update runs the risk of pulling down some crap like that. And this is Sourceforge. The place many people automagically associate with Open Source and Linux. So, Linux will not succeed at all in the market place if we're stuck having to find ways to not make it a profitable thing.
Bitch as we might. Cleaning spyware off of computers accounts for 75% of Microsoft computer shop revenues. Sales of hardware and software?? For every copy of Windows I've sold in the last 3 years I've cleaned a dozen trojans. On Windows copies I buy in bulk from my distributor, I make about 5 bucks a copy... 15 if I gouge above the price at Walmart. Cleaning trojans? Well, it keeps Best Buy solvent at rates so ridiculous it makes one wanna barf. Almost a hundred bucks to put it on the bench?! Profit indeed! You do the math.
Either way, bitching about systemd doesn't solve anything. I've run Red Hat servers since before there was a contract one had to sign and pay for before grabbing a copy (before the RHEL/Fedora split.) I've used CentOS and supported myself. Hasn't let me down. I've also run properly pruned and configured Microsoft servers. I haven't been let down by that, either. Hell, I put together the Microsoft security team at my old shop. So, far as I can tell, to each his own. Nothing but that. If something
Been using Debian for the last 16 years and always loved it. After my laptop died this year, I got a new one, scraped win 8.1 off it and installed the latest Deb and absolutely nothing worked, nothing. I felt like I was back in '98 having to edit the fucking kernel just to get printing or sound to work. That was not where I expected Debian to be 16 years later. I was really pissed and felt kind of betrayed by something I really cared about. I'm a 70 y.o. heart patient now and I just decided I didn't need that shit and stress. I put windows 8.1 back on, configured it to look and act like win 7, added all the open source software we all know and love (LibreOffice, Firefox, Thunderbird, GIMP, Qbit, learned PowerShell) and haven't looked back. I miss Debian a lot but I'm done.
Meh Linux is buttfucked on the desktop anyway friend. I run a PC shop and am running the latest Windows 10 build on a 2011 AMD netbook, the weakest thing I have ATM. The verdict? Its faster than Windows 7 across the board and even with every driver running in compatibility mode this thing is WAAAAY faster than a fresh Ubuntu install on nicer hardware, and that isn't even a clean install but an upgrade! If the rumors are true, and I'm betting they are, that Nadella is gonna sell Windows 10 Home for $30 a pop just to get rid of the Win7/XP installs? Then give it up Chuck, only the hardcore GNUs are gonna care, everybody else will just spend the $30 and call it a day.
I spent nearly 5 years buying the bullshit and waiting for Linux to get better....never did. still had "update foo broke my drivers" still had hell trying to get Linux to do simple tasks like video acceleration that Windows has been doing since 2005, as a Linux server admin friend who went with a Macbook after Linux had fucked his install one time too many says "Linux never gets better, only different" and he's right and its guys like Pottering that are the cause. things getting stable, shit starting to work? Well fuck that we'll rip it out and start from scratch! KDE 4, Gnome 3, Pulse, every time shit actually starts getting solid it never fails, its time to rip everything out and go back to square 1. its like they say "ZOMFG we might have to sit around fixing bugs, fuck that! We'll start fresh and be all cool and shit!" and here they go, right back to square one.
Meanwhile I ran a Win2K workstation for 10 years without a crash, last I heard my XP X64 workstation is still purring with the guy that bought it, and my Win 7 has been running since Aug 09 without a single hiccup, despite me changing damned near every single piece out, all it needed was a single Internet activation when I swapped boards.
So let 'em fight over systemd I say, I'm out. I'm tired of the lies, the excuses, the alpha quality being handed off as RTM, its a bunch of buggy beta bullshit. They just better hope the rumor about Nadella doing to servers what he is doing to desktops, with single licenses at sane prices is bs, because if that is the case? yeah good luck Linux, I have a feeling the numbers will drop like a stone!
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
You are deluded my friend. People who are not or are into Windows is not because of the price factor, is because not knowing better or hating it. It can be fast as a rocket space, but it has never been reliable and more infected than a nigerian hooker. The fact is people are so tired about Windows that I have had people ask me to install Linux just not to have viruses. I also gave a Mac to dad in the past, this summer gave it an iPAd and he absolutely loves it. I am using OS/X and it is money well spent for peace of life. I am using linux too for about 100 servers, will see if I will go back the freeBSD route. Windows? Office? Microsoft products? never on my life. Never again.
Apparently this has been encouraged by systemd developesr: https://mail.gnome.org/archive...
Nowadays you do not need to compile the kernel, you just need to learn how to deal with kernel modules. It is a rookie mistake to compile the kernel just for the sake of making hardware working, one that I did 15 years ago. As for peace of mind, I am not young anymore, and administering at work a hundred servers is already enough, Mac and iPhone as personal gadgets do very well the trick and I see them as an investment.
" I felt like I was back in '98 having to edit the fucking kernel just to get printing or sound to work." I suppose I could have made that sentence clearer. I haven't even considered editing the kernel in the last 14 years and did not do so in this instance.
They also tend to be more unmaintained, like with owncloud.
Just installed windows for the first time in at least ten years. It does not seem to have gotten any better (from xp to 8.1). The machine is only for games so it does not have to do much but get out of the way and let steam run. It has issues.
Plugging in headphone does not redirect sound, wtf? How can this be. It is beyond belief that applications are bound to the old sound device and do not move until they are restarted.
These new tile things, so they are apps that were made full-screen at compile time, wtf? So if I want to read a web-page while I'm poking around in control panel then I can't just see both windows.
It still doesn't seem that stable. Crashed during installation the first time. See it hang hard enough that the desktop can't come back to live and it needs three fingers and a new login to get things working.
My boxes for work are a mixture of macs and linux machines, I'm honestly kind of shocked that people use windows in a professional environment.
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Well, I'm a current Debian user, and I switched from testing to stable because of problems with systemd. OTOH, there's a good reason that it's called testing.
I have not tried Jessie recently, but I have used systemd for a long time now on production versions of both Fedora and CentOS. It's fine, I'm totally OK with it.
Still, any init system that marks problems with its logging system as "won't fix" is dubious. That the main logging system is binary just makes things much worse.
You didn't say what the problem was, but if it was that it uses a custom logging format then of course that's not going to be fixed. It's a feature, old-style text files is not suitable if you want to store the metadata that the journal supports.
So does expansions like having the "init system" include things like terminal manager, etc. It even makes me tempted to go back to Etch (yah, that's a rediculuous thing to suggest, as the current stable works fine without systemd).
Systemd is not an init system. To quote the systemd home page, "systemd is a suite of basic building blocks for a Linux system." That includes an init system.
RPC allows proprietary software to leverage the functionality of your GPL software, which might go against your intent, as RPC becomes the de facto interface of increasing number of components...
Honestly, I don't buy into the whole non-GPL can't link GPL argument in the first place.
Suppose I were to tell you to grab your copy of the 3rd paperback printing of Game of Thrones and look at the second sentence on page 320. Does posting that sentence make this post a violation of GRRM's copyright? Of course not - I didn't copy anything in his book - simply mentioning that it exists and that it contains a page 320 in no way makes this post a derivative work.
Well, when you link a binary to a shared object, all you do is write a bunch of cross references saying that this function call should be replaced with an address associated with this symbol. Then a linker will replace those references when your code is loaded. None of this involves copying anything. Assuming the shared object is in RAM already being used by something else, your OS isn't even copying the GPL code at all when this happens, but even if a copy were made it is an unmodified copy of the shared object which isn't being redistributed - ie it is permitted by the GPL.
Sure, everybody says that you can't link non-GPL code to GPL code, but I am not convinced that a court is certain to uphold this. I could see issues if you try to bundle GPL and non-GPL software into a single larger work, but if you distribute the non-GPL stuff without the GPL content that problem goes away.
The main issue is no one wants to fight the court battle.
But frankly, this has all been kind of irrelevant anyway - you can distribute source packages, let the client do a compile on install, and ignore the entire affair.
Linux is trash on the desktop. Even the brightness keys on laptops do not work properly. Fujitsu E751 laptop. The brightness keys adjust the brightness in multiple steps under Ubuntu. Then I switch to Fedora just to find that I can decrease brightness only to 50%, and that the brightness keys stopped working completely after a suspend cycle. Also in Chrome, the items in right-click popup menu did not get highlighted properly with a blue background when hovered over, but their text disappeared instead. Linux distros are filled with these kind of weird glitches. I can almost feel the bugs crawling on my skin. I won't go back to Linux until the quality assurance improves significantly.
And if you were then you were not to blame in any case. Not until the change was made to Debian stable.
I appreciate that you put that much effort into your work. The world could do with many more developers like you, but the fact remains Debian unstable is what it says on the box, and if you have a problem with it then sure file bug reports, but don't go somewhere and complain about how your "stable" system suddenly had an issue.
It reminds me about people who ran early betas of Windows 7 and complained about incompatibilities and such. People like you put the effort in, but the unstable releases are acknowledgements that often things don't go quite according to plan, often there are edge cases for which no one can test every scenario, and to allow people to use it more widely to ensure that the above problems are caught before someone declares a system stable.
As a side note, kudos to you. Debian was one of the few distros I have used where I have never had the need to touch an init script.
Ubuntu also moved to systemd because everyone was moving to systemd. Before that, Ubuntu has their own init system called Upstart, and there was much debate in Debian on whether to use systemd or Upstart.
It's my understanding that there was an attempt to affect the voting by limiting who had the ability to vote, simply because one of the lead developers was a prominent Upstart supporter. One interesting reference is here, though this is not the source I read about the vote manipulation from.
That said, I'm not overly familiar with how Debian elections are carried out. I only know what I came across in the last couple weeks when I was trying to get a grip on why major distributions were going so solidly with systemd, given issues that so many have found in the package. The trick to remember is that systemd is not the only solution to any {real|perceived} issues that sysvinit may have: There's also openrc and Upstart, to name two other alternatives, and they each have different solutions to bring to the table. Part of what made Linux what it is is the ability to choose what you want in your distro, to determine what you think is really "broken" and what the solution should be.
Honestly, I started getting migraines trying to wade through all the political crap. Proponents of systemd started to sound like American politicians (Democrat or Republican, take your pick; they both tell lies and break promises). It's mind-numbing, which I think is the point. I couldn't find a distro without systemd at all (this was a couple weeks ago, before I head of Devuan) so I wiped my Linux (Fedora) box and put FreeBSD on it.
Yeah, I'll have to learn how to deal with 'ports', but I won't have to deal with the nightmare that appears to be systemd.
When politicians are involved, everyone loses.
My laptop went unbootable at least once in that time period.
(It wasn't an sysvinit bug, it was an mdadm bug).
Not that I'm complaining -- that's what I expect when running unstable.
Watch this Heartland Institute video
When it comes to Debian unstable, anything that prevents a user's system from booting is completely unacceptable.
That is ridiculous.
It happens all the time -- that's why some of us run unstable, to find and fix these bugs before they get into stable.
Watch this Heartland Institute video
Ok, can we rename this whole mess "systemdgate" now?
Watch this Heartland Institute video
I've seen it recommended for firewalls -- set up the firewall then make all user process stop. (Can't remember how you stopped the kernel panicking when pid 0 exited).
Watch this Heartland Institute video
No, the reason they are forking Debian is because they don't know how apt-get and aptitude work.
Clowns.
Watch this Heartland Institute video
If I was in situation in which licensing was critical to me I would use Gentoo since as far as I know it is only decent and recent distro that actually lets you choose init system to your liking.
Debian lets you choose systemd, sysvinit or upstart. If you want something else then start filing bugs and submitting packages and patches.
Watch this Heartland Institute video
The motivation is to have a Linux distribution which [...] doesn't require systemd.
That's called Debian.
From the wiki that is linked on the ugly website:
http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/How_to_remove_systemd_from_a_Debian_jessie/sid_installation
That's worth a fork? Three shell commands?
Watch this Heartland Institute video
#systemdgate.
Prat.
Watch this Heartland Institute video
upstart?
Watch this Heartland Institute video
This post brought to you by paedophiles against systemd.
Watch this Heartland Institute video
It is way too cumbersome to do that, so in practice it is not possible.
so why call it 'unstable' then?
Sheesh.
That's because the same crap has been continually broken and continually happening in Linux.
Nobody with any sense buys windows 8. They buy windows 7, which kicks any variant of Linux 7 days a week and twice on Sunday.
Try Windows 7. Virtually nobody with any sense defends windows 8. Try watching YouTube videos at full screen and tell me with a straight face that Linux is ready for the desktop.
M$FT would be hurt without USG license fees as well.
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it fits the description of "unstable" fine. maybe its down to the debian configuration of systemd because my opensuse system worked fine.
"The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
When doesn't that work? I haven't seen a problem with video in a browser on linux for years.
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Yeah, I'll have to learn how to deal with 'ports', but I won't have to deal with the nightmare that appears to be systemd.
Just because this makes it sound like there was anything difficult about it, here's the typical workflow (installing mutt as an example)
/usr/ports/*/*mutt* /usr/ports/chinese/mutt/ /usr/ports/devel/rubygem-mutter/ /usr/ports/distfiles/mutt/ /usr/ports/japanese/mutt-devel/ /usr/ports/mail/mutt/ /usr/ports/mail/mutt-lite/ /usr/ports/mail/mutt14/ /usr/ports/mail/mutt14-lite/ /usr/ports/mail/mutt_vc_query/ /usr/ports/mail/muttils/ /usr/ports/print/muttprint/ /usr/ports/russian/muttprint/ /usr/ports/x11-fonts/font-mutt-misc/ /usr/ports/x11-wm/mutter/ /usr/ports/mail/mutt
# ls -ld
drwxr-xr-x 3 root wheel 512 Nov 18 19:02
drwxr-xr-x 2 root wheel 512 Nov 18 19:12
drwxr-xr-x 2 root wheel 512 Nov 20 02:18
drwxr-xr-x 3 root wheel 512 Nov 18 19:20
drwxr-xr-x 3 root wheel 512 Nov 22 00:07
drwxr-xr-x 2 root wheel 512 Nov 18 19:21
drwxr-xr-x 3 root wheel 512 Nov 18 19:21
drwxr-xr-x 2 root wheel 512 Nov 18 19:21
drwxr-xr-x 2 root wheel 512 Nov 18 19:21
drwxr-xr-x 2 root wheel 512 Nov 18 19:21
drwxr-xr-x 3 root wheel 512 Nov 18 19:30
drwxr-xr-x 3 root wheel 512 Nov 18 19:30
drwxr-xr-x 2 root wheel 512 Nov 18 19:42
drwxr-xr-x 3 root wheel 512 Nov 18 19:44
# cd
# make install
CLI paste? paste.pr0.tips!
I'm an admin. I don't want to be excited about startup managers. If I get excited by init, it means something is broken.
Yes, the lack of detailed status information about init-managed process is something that is broken in traditional init systems, so it's fine to get excited by the fact that systemd fixes this brokenness.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
The truth is that if Pottering was not the author, systemd would probably not be the issue it has become. Call it the legacy of Pulse.
Its faster than Windows 7 across the board...
We hear this all the time from Windows lovers. As though speed is the single most burning issue for users. I've never noticed any particular speed issue with Windows 7. On the other hand, users are seriously slowed down when their knowledge base is discarded by wholesale (and random) changes to the user interface (Ribbon, Win8, ...)
Of course! What do you expect? Although Linux runs on laptops, HW makers really only test using drivers for Windows. And laptops these days have so many differentiating (ie. proprietary) features, getting things (especially suspend/hibernate) working is a challenge, even in Windows. And this will never change.
my eyes glaze over as soon as I see "bloat" as a complaint because its always wrong
"The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
wow, a clever damning comment against system - don't people stop saying "nuff said" when they reach puberty?
"The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
systemd is a solution to a non-problem. It highlights the wagon rut that Linux devs have become stuck in. Namely:
1) Because the HW vendors ignore it, Linux (still/always) has a problems supporting laptop hardware: accelerated video, wireless, suspend/resume, etc.
2) Since we can't solve the above we just tinker with other stuff, adding even more breakage to that caused by problem 1).
Basically, we're painting the deck of the Titanic, as it lists to 30 degrees, while complaining that our "Wet Paint" signs keep sliding off the deck.
And yet more complexity, that's what we really need! Maybe we could have each daemon which is managed by systemd run in it's own virtual machine. Think how awesome that would be in a distribution...
providing the guarantee that it would boot
Really, where is your written guarantee?
This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful,
but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the
GNU General Public License for more details.
http://www.mueller-public.de - My site http://www.anr-institute.com/ - Advanced Natural Research Institute
Startup scripts are written in a shell script like BASH because BASH runs in pretty much every run level and is the greatest common denominator; if you don't like BASH feel free to use python, perl, Lisp or even (don't hit me) php. If you don't like interpreted languages, there is always C, C++ or even (don't hit me) Ada.
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Unix Systems Group pay for Microsoft licenses?
Watch this Heartland Institute video
The problem with SystemD is that is not just an init system. Or a new init system. It touches everything -- sound, hardware, wifi, network interfaces generally, video cards, everything. The likelihood of fairly big things going wrong with such a complex system is almost certain.
Complexity increase the risk of failure. SystemD is very complex, touching the use of resources of nearly every kind on a computer.
Redhat has LOTS of developers that can fix things. Plus their system runs on a subset of available hardware, which is sure to be tested and work.
Debian while having a good pool of developers, has nowhere near the resources of Redhat. More cynical minds might say that SystemD was pushed hard by Redhat to create a situation where nothing works at all, outside of Redhat, to force people to get support contracts and switch. Why Redhat even has a tool to switch distros to Redhat based systems!
The risk for people running critical systems is that SystemD will lock up and fail with complex interactions between software and hardware. This is ironically most likely for desktop systems -- where it matters a lot if your sound card works, or video driver works --- and less on servers where who cares if your video driver or sound card fails as long as it continues to pump out webpages and be administered via SSH.
This is good news for me as a Desktop Ubuntu user as now I have a Debian apt-get type alternative to run on my laptops, which I use for business and leisure.
He talks right in that email about making it a "dependency" but about the need for support on non-linux platforms. That just clarifies that systemd doesn't want gnome to actually depend on systemd, just to have it is a build dependency and to have the features still work if it isn't there.
Now, gee, why is it that you dug out the reference, but didn't bother pointing out that it acquits systemd's author? He clearly is against gnome actually requiring systemd in the sense that people are accusing.
And yeah, any developer should realize what a PITA traditional locale support is on *nix. A solution for that is needed. Fix the problems that systemd is going solve for gnome, and it won't need to get the solutions from systemd.
Also note that it doesn't mean you'll need systemd installed to use gnome. You'll only need the modular part that has the APIs that gnome uses. Whiners should consider spending some time learning how to build packages for their favorite distro, and they can do something productive. Systemd is already modular, but the distro packages are less so. So spend some time setting up a build system that divides it up. That will save people not running the init system from needing those parts of the code to be installed.
To paraphrase a curse, may you live in exciting times.
comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
United States Government
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GP was talking about Windows 10, which is totally different. There, in the laptop mode, the system looks like Windows 7, and only if it's converted to a tablet does it give the Metro interface.
It's well known that many packages will begin requiring systemd over time. That's why the fork wasn't announced until now, after Debian chose not to be init-agnostic once and for all.
.: Semper Absurda
When you say Solaris 'did pretty well', what do you mean by that? It doesn't seem to be doing at all well in terms of popularity in the data center. Same with OSX, its use in the data center is MINIMAL.
Probably that leaving init scripts behind worked out for them. Their lack of presence in the datacenter doesn't really have anything to do with their init system but instead their attachment to proprietary hardware which offered little advantage over a generic PC either whitebox or from your preferred OEM running Linux or your BSD of choice. Likewise for OS X.
I used to get high on life, but I developed a tolerance. Now I need something stronger.
But it's the "umberella" part that I don't trust. You can't get the handle without getting the ribs, too. And sometimes all I want is a small part of the handle.
That the terminal manager is spun off from the kernel is fine. That it becomes another reason to install systemd is terrible. There are too many interconnected dependencies.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
There's no need to play silly word games over semantics. The meaning of what I was saying is quite obvious. You've quoted the licence disclaimer. I'm saying that I did a fairly extensive set of testing on a range of systems and configurations prior to every release and upload to ensure that it worked. This does not in any way invalidate the licence disclaimer; there is obviously a theoretical possibility that there may be extreme edge cases where it may not have worked, but we knew and had validated that it worked for all the common cases (and a number of uncommon ones as well). You could upgrade the package in confidence and expect your system to boot after the upgrade. In practice, problems did not occur because of the extent and quality of the test coverage, so that guarantee was indeed met.
Amazing, you can ptedict the future.
And if packages require systemd, what then?
Watch this Heartland Institute video
Honestly, I don't buy into the whole non-GPL can't link GPL argument in the first place.
Suppose I were to tell you to grab your copy of the 3rd paperback printing of Game of Thrones and look at the second sentence on page 320. Does posting that sentence make this post a violation of GRRM's copyright? Of course not - I didn't copy anything in his book - simply mentioning that it exists and that it contains a page 320 in no way makes this post a derivative work.
I believe a book over 300 pages is a poorly designed book and also breaks the reader guidelines. As such, none of my GRRM books have any pages over 300.
It's not the years, honey, it's the mileage. - Colonel Henry Walton Jones, Jr., Ph.D.
BS my ass, the fact is everyone non-technical has is computer riddled of virus and windows suck balls. User or no user stupidity the end result is pretty much the same.
Thank you and for those that say "Nu uh"? Then step right up and take the Hairyfeet Challenge, now celebrating its eighth year without a single mainstream distro passing! And the sad part is every. single. Windows. Since Win2K has been able to do 10 years of updates with ZERO driver failures, hell even Vista can update to current with zero driver failures.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
Ugh. startup scripts should never be written in bash. They should be POSIX shell scripts, no bash or zsh or other extensions.
Watch this Heartland Institute video
So in other words....they are FOSSies and are doing it on religious grounds rather than on the merits of the OS or even its functionality?
In that case I agree with you 100%, because if they are getting viruses in 2014 then its because of PEBKAC and those same people will end up somebody's bitch on Linux so as a member of the Windows community allow me to say thank you, please keep them. Better they cause millions of Linux infections than cause Windows ones, thx!
For everybody else Windows 7 is solid as a rock, Windows 10 looks to be even nicer in every way, and with both you have to REALLY go out of your way to be a booger picking moron to get yourself infected, what with the sandboxing, ASLR,DEP,low rights mode, Windows Defender, auto updates, one has to be a real drooling idiot to get themselves infected...I should know, I run a PC repair shop and see quite a few and ya know what? Damned near every.single.one. says something along the lines of "I knew I shouldn't click and run that, I really did, I don't know why I did that"...well I do its the same reason the "How to write a Linux virus" works just fine (which it does BTW, see the KDELook bug for just one example) its called social engineering, which is how more than 95% of Windows bugs end up installed.
So I personally wish all the "virus carrying click on everything" types go to your OS, I really do. From the looks of the Android malware they will be happy to spread their STDs to your OS just as they did to ours, so please accept these plague bearers with our compliments!
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
I remember Fyodor of nmap claimed that any software that parsed the output from nmap was a derived work.
It sure seems like a stretch, but until there is some case law around this issue, nobody can say for sure.
I remember Fyodor of nmap claimed that any software that parsed the output from nmap was a derived work.
It sure seems like a stretch, but until there is some case law around this issue, nobody can say for sure.
Generally speaking a derived work has to contain some part of the work that it is derived from. For example, this comment is a derived comment of yours since I quoted you (though it is clearly fair use). If I didn't quote you, then it wouldn't be a derived work at all. I'm pretty sure that this is a fairly clear legal concept, but I could be wrong.
Anybody can claim anything at any time. I could claim that I own your house.
So your Laptops' custom function keys don't work on Linux out of the box.
They usually don't work on a vanilla Windows without the 3rd party hotkey/function utilities neither !
Malware has changed but it's not dead.
Nowadays it's browser addons like toolbars and their virulent reinstall utilities that get into the systems.
Antivirus programs are still playing catch-up to this threat because for long they
didn't consider these advertising, browser hijacking programs to be malware.
Nowadays they have created an entire new category for this crapware (Potentially Unwanted Programs) but
mostly you still need to opt-in most AVG software to clean this garbage.
Since you run a PC repair shop ... you should be grateful for these booger picking morons, they are your clients !
I might try out Windows 10 whenever it's out, but even then, I'll keep PC-BSD on this laptop that I'm currently using. It originally came w/ Windows 8.1, which I trashed after a week of using, it was that bad. I didn't want to go back to 7, given that MS was heading towards newer OSs and would end support by 2020.
You can't buy Windows 7 retail anymore. Yes you can use the downgrade rights if you bought the appropriate (expensive) Windows version.
But it won't be long until you won't find Windows 7 drivers for that new sony laptop you got.
You keep posting a link to this:
Hi,
This is code by someone who routinely trolls Debian. I doubt we want
any more poisonous upstreams in Debian, so I at least would prefer this
never get packaged.
He doesn't mention anything about the author's views on women. But you do.
This is known as "giving yourself away".
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
I did not mean those.
Actually I pride myself on setting up my client's PCs so they don't GET the bugs, I instead get my business from referrals.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
Out of curiousity how far do you exactly go: ...
Software policy restrictions, EMET, strict lgpo's, different admin user, software with good configurations (ff+adblock), tighter ACL's,
No, bash is an extended version of the POSIX shell you cretin.
Watch this Heartland Institute video
Why are you Americans obsessed by homosexual rape in prisons?
Watch this Heartland Institute video
Before going to Minix, why not look at the BSDs?
One wonders how many of those "ordinary decent criminals" who are so proud of attacking sex offenders are trying to hide something about themselves.
Watch this Heartland Institute video
People who say "people like you need to be killed" need psychiatric help.
Watch this Heartland Institute video
Which started the whole world crying..
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
You should know better than this. Systemd is not an init system it is a process manager. It absolutely should change how filesystem mounting is handled as that is one of the things it does monitor filesystem state. As for session management most likely that involves processes, so again, that is supposed to be integrated.
You're quite right: ports really isn't difficult. It's just "different" from what I'm used to, so any difficulties are personal and self-inflicted. :)
When politicians are involved, everyone loses.
Honestly? With Windows Vista and later you really don't have to go nuts locking the PC down to get a solid virus free system that won't get infected without the user going out of the way to do something ignorant.
The key is defense in depth, so that there is simply too many levels the malware has to get through to install. On the systems I have been setting up I start with Comodo Internet Security Free, by default it runs browsers in a sandbox and if you pair it with a Comodo Browser it'll stick the browser in a VM. Next I toss the IE icon, its just too big a target, can't use it. After that I install Comodo IceDragon and Comodo Secure Chromium, that gives you the VM advantage from CIS and as a bonus the Chromium (which I tell them to use by default) runs in Low Rights Mode by default so it simply doesn't have the permissions to access anything of note. The second browser is a backup in case they find a site that doesn't like the first but since its VMed as well its not a real threat and both are set to use Comodo Secure DNS so all pages are checked before load. Finally I install Adblock Plus on both browsers which frankly no PC should be without as I've found more than 90% of malware comes from ads.
And that's it, other than setting Windows and programs like Flash to auto update that's really all there is to it, the most important part is removing the browser threat as that is where nearly all malware comes from. For them to get through the browser they will have to 1.-Get past the Secure DNS blacklist, 2.-Get through a malware scan before load, 3.- Get past Adblock Plus, 4.- Get out of the VM, 5.- Figure out how to get out of Low Rights Mode.
I've been using this setup for a couple years now and the worst I've found on a system set up this way is a Google or yahoo toolbar on IE...but since they don't use IE it never gets launched. The only ones I've seen get infected using this set up are the ones that outright sabotage the security, like this one jerk I ended up having to throw out the shop, I told him flat footed "Limewire doesn't exist anymore, the Feds shut that down years ago. Anything that claims to be Limewire now is a fricking virus"....can you guess where this is going? Yep the genius went straight home, typed "Limewire" into Google and when some rapidshit site gave him a trojan with the Limewire logo on it he UNINSTALLED THE AV because naturally it wouldn't let him install a fucking trojan and wadda ya know, he installs it and the PC is completely overrun with shit. When I shoved his stupid fat ass out the door he was yelling "it says its Limewire, you make it work!"
The moral of the story? You can build the perfect system that protects 99.995% of normal users without fail, but there is no system that will protect itself from a booger eating idiot determined to wreck it!
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
BS as I've used WinXP drivers in Windows 7 and Windows 8 drivers in 7 as well, that's the nice thing about Windows they don't crap on drivers all the time. In fact the only caveat is that if you are using 32bit XP drivers you have to use Win 7 32bit but Linux AFAIK won't let you mix 32bit and 64bit drivers either so no difference there.
But if you are really concerned and get a Windows 8 device? Just install Windows 10. Its free, runs great, you can put it in "slow update mode" if you don't want to be bleeding edge but more like the corporate side of things, and if its like the Win 7 beta (which I'm betting it will be) when the RTM comes out you'll be able to do an in place upgrade to RTM in like 10 minutes and keep all your stuff and programs. Hell I installed it on a 2011 netbook and not only is it faster than the Win 7 Home that was on it but it let me keep ALL my programs, ALL my games, everything runs perfectly...hell even have full video acceleration even with the drivers in compatibility mode....its fucking brilliant, I haven't been this pumped about a Windows release since XP X64 made Win2K3 Workstation affordable!
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
I thought the new improved driver model of Windows Vista and up made Windows XP drivers necessarily incompatible ?
Maybe it works now but I tried that back when Windows 7 was new and that never worked.
I had to downgrade a new Toshiba laptop last week and some toshiba utilities/drivers wouldn't run on Windows 7 or didn't exist at all.
And I'm not gonna put a Preview release on a client's worklaptop even though it usually is pretty stable, that's just silly.
I'm thankful to you as a Linux Developer for your hard work. But to say that you have any guarantee that the software you provide for free works, is a big stretch. If I want that kind of guarantee I must go to RedHat or Canonical and sign a support agreement. Sure, you have maybe a reputation to lose. But Debian is a free project that is run by volunteers, there are no guarantees.
In any case, you should embrace systemd. Because now you even have less work to maintain the initscripts. But in any case, nobody is forcing you to use systemd. Debian and other distributions are running just fine with sysvinit initscripts. Just yesterday I installed i8k for my laptop on Fedora 20 that have a sysvinit init script. And it's runs just fine.
http://www.mueller-public.de - My site http://www.anr-institute.com/ - Advanced Natural Research Institute
Dude seriously WTF? I'm serious...WTF are you doing man? those "utilities" are about as useful as tits on a boar hog, worse because at least the tits ain't slowing down the boar!
As far as the driver model goes? Vista and up can use WDM OR WDF, XP was WDM so there ya go. Like I said the only catch is 32bit drivers run on a 32bit OS but since no OS I know of can run two different driver subsystem at the same time that is to be expected. And if its for a business client then they have Windows pro...yes? One phone call and you can downgrade to any previous version you want and as for drivers? Here ya go pal, enjoy! Just slap that sucker on any newly installed Windows, run it once, then uninstall it...tada! the PC has the latest drivers all nice and neat, easy peasy. You pair that with WSUS Offline and Ninite for the third party software and you can go from bare drive to ready to ship in a snap!
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
Yeah they do suck, but some of them control things like the Wireless hotkey which the clients do expect to work.
And yes Ninite is fantastic, I've been using it for 3 years now myself. Will check out driver-booster. Thanks !
So let 'em fight over systemd I say, I'm out.
You were ever in? All you do around here is complain about how shitty Linux is.
Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
Pottering doesn't work for MSFT, he works for the 3 letter agencies. Considering that MSFT would probably be a step up on the trust scale. Where does Pottering get his money? Red Hat...okay so where does RH get THEIR money? NSA,DoD, FBI,CIA, DoJ, something like 85% of their income is from .Gov institutions, most in the Intelligence community.
[citation needed]
-- Old Man Kensey
Not a literal guarantee, but e.g. if you buy a flashlight and put fresh batteries in it and turn it on, you kind of expect that it'll produce light. If you have to be standing in a certain position and it doesn't work between midnight and 1am, you return it and get a different one that works.
Not being able to boot is a pretty easy way to tell when a distribution has fundamental problems (unless you have a RAID setup or something, in which case you know what you're getting into).
Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
You can't buy Windows 7 retail anymore.
That is simply not true. You can buy notebooks with Win 7 pro installed from Dell. You can buy individual Windows 7 home/pro from Newegg and Amazon. There are plenty of places to get Windows 7 if that's what you want. Sure, if you walk into Best Buy and say "give me a 'puter" then you're going to get something with Win8 but it's not like Win7 is hard to find.
You can't buy Windows 7 RETAIL anymore.
Yes you can still get some OEM licenses or try to find retailers which still hold sine stock.
But Microsoft has stopped selling W7 retail since 31/10/2013 IIRC.
Except that it takes ages. The new pkgng on FreeBSD awesome though. Just as good as apt and not a pile of shit like pkg_tools.
If you don't understand any of my sayings, come to me in private and I shall take you in my German mouth.
http://youtu.be/VSbNumR9Z8k
I think you read "That means if we still care for those non-Linux platforms replacements have to be written." a bit wrong.
And no, I think he proposes exactly what people are complaining about: Gnome should depend on some new random interfaces systemd invents to solve some minor problems in a new incompatible way.
I don't want my machine configured through d-bus interfaces which talk to a set of new pointless daemons. And personally, I think all these dbus new interfaces are complete crap.
When you're accusing people who advocate something specific in a specific case of believing software "...should depend on some new random interfaces systemd invents to solve some minor problems in a new incompatible way" then you've given up on even the claim of intellectual honesty.
Especially where they cite actual, specific, non-random, real technical reasons, and you claim to be aware enough of the situation to form an opinion. If you know enough to know you disagree, you'd have to know that you're disagreeing with real things, real technical decisions that are actually happening, and have known, public reasons. Pretending to disagree, but actually just pretending that there were no reasons for the decisions, is just dishonest.
You are telling knowing lies here.
When you're accusing people who advocate something specific in a specific case of believing software "...should depend on some new random interfaces systemd invents to solve some minor problems in a new incompatible way" then you've given up on even the claim of intellectual honesty.
Especially where they cite actual, specific, non-random, real technical reasons, and you claim to be aware enough of the situation to form an opinion. If you know enough to know you disagree, you'd have to know that you're disagreeing with real things, real technical decisions that are actually happening, and have known, public reasons. Pretending to disagree, but actually just pretending that there were no reasons for the decisions, is just dishonest.
You are telling knowing lies here.
Wow, grow up.
Implement a stable hardware/driver ABI and video card manufacturers will code a driver for it without too much asking. Keep your broken-ass monkey-code driver model, that has no stability and requires modification to work between even minor releases, and don't be surprised when video card manufacturers show token support at best and give you the finger at worst. No they are not gonna open source their code because there often is code that is not theirs to give that is subject to a NDA. They are also not gonna continue supporting hardware that went off the market years ago with updates.
This isn't rocket science. BSD has video drivers that work quite nicely and don't break between updates. Linux is stuck using a driver model that is so old Windows 95 is cutting edge compared to it.
Too bad Shuttleworth didn't put his money towards BSD because some REAL progress would have been made instead of flushed down a toilet.
If you want Linux to be a religion, then fine. Just stop trying to claim that it can compete with anything other than Windows 98 and we'll stop mocking you for it's hilariously bad and obsolete design choices.