UK Prime Minister Says Gov't Should Be Capable of Reading Any Communications

Dr_Barnowl writes: The BBC reports that UK Prime Minister David Cameron has vowed to introduce a "comprehensive piece of legislation" aimed at there being no "means of communication ... we cannot read," in the aftermath of the Charlie Hebdo attacks in Paris. While he didn't mention encryption specifically, the only logical means by which this could occur would be by the introduction of compulsory key escrow, and the banning of forms of encryption which do not use it. While the UK already essentially has a legal means to demand your encryption keys (and imprison you indefinitely if you don't comply), this would fall short if you have a credible reason for not having the key any more (such as using an OTR plugin for your chosen chat program).

The U.S. tried a similar tack with Clipper in the 90s. As we all know, terrorists with any technical chops are unlikely to be affected, given the vast amount of freely available, military-grade crypto now available, and the use of boring old cold war tradecraft. Ironically, France used to ban the use of strong cryptography but has largely liberalized its regime since 2011.

Comments

Obviously on the right track

[Anonymous Coward]

Ironically, France used to ban the use of strong cryptography but has largely liberalized its regime since 2011.

That's just proof that allowing good cryptography empowers terrorists!

(Well, someone had to supply the promised irony.)

Re: Obviously on the right track

[chentiangemalc]

We should start by banning use of https

Re:Obviously on the right track

[bondsbw]

If you ban encryption, then only criminals will have encryption.

Re:Obviously on the right track

[Z00L00K]

And the criminals will have the same access as the governments wreaking havoc among bank transactions and identity thefts as well as trade in company secrets.

It will really be opening Pandora's Box to restrict encryption.

Re:Obviously on the right track

[Slashjones]

Surprise: Freedom-hating authoritarian scumbags make the argument that safety is more important than freedom and privacy, all the while pretending that they value freedom and democratic values. I wish these people would move to North Korea.

Re:Obviously on the right track

[Anonymous Coward]

Where they lose the argument is that these days privacy is safety; any hole, even a government-approved hole, provides an attack vector for threat actors. While it might be marginally helpful to the spooks to be able to track terrorists more easily, it would be immensely helpful to terrorists to have a generally more insecure infrastructure. Both weaknesses in communications relating to civil infrastructure and personal communications between could be used effectively for planning and targeting terrorist operations.

Re:Obviously on the right track

[jeremyp]

Yes, but you can monitor the Internet for encrypted traffic and anybody found using it is automatically a terrorist. What could possibly go wrong?

Re:Obviously on the right track

[BlueStrat]

Surprise: Freedom-hating authoritarian scumbags make the argument that safety is more important than freedom and privacy, all the while pretending that they value freedom and democratic values. I wish these people would move to North Korea.

Where they lose the argument is that these days privacy is safety; any hole, even a government-approved hole, provides an attack vector for threat actors. While it might be marginally helpful to the spooks to be able to track terrorists more easily, it would be immensely helpful to terrorists to have a generally more insecure infrastructure. Both weaknesses in communications relating to civil infrastructure and personal communications between could be used effectively for planning and targeting terrorist operations.

You assume that the spying by governments in the UK & US is actually about stopping Islamic terrorists or terrorist acts. That has not been born out by the facts surrounding many if not most of the terrorist attacks carried out by Islamic terrorists who arrived from nations/regions known for such activity and even when warned by the foreign intelligence service of the nation they left.

They can't catch a couple of not-genius terrorists even monitoring all communications and having been warned, yet they seem to be doing a brisk biz in 'parallel construction' to make drug and CP busts.

It's about protecting those in power and the status-quo that maintains the system that keeps them in power, and the biggest threat to any bloated, corrupt, increasingly-authoritarian and tyrannical government and it's power-and-control-seeking leaders are the citizens.

The US has steadily been sliding towards an ever-more authoritarian surveillance state for decades under both Democrats and Republicans.

If you want to solve the problems, the first thing you need are different people working on the problems. The problems will never be solved by the same people who have created & maintained them for decades.

Want to get both Party's attention? Stop giving money or volunteering time/work to either Party. No more checks. No more handing out flyers or putting up yard signs. No manning call centers, campaign offices, etc. When they call tell them you're done with their lies. When/if they knock on your door, slam the door in their faces. Tell your friends, neighbors, coworkers. Use social media.

#DefundEmAll

Strat

Re:Obviously on the right track

[AmiMoJo]

And by extension anyone who uses encryption is probably a criminal. Recently a Spanish judge locked a bunch of people up for using secure email, because taking measures to secure your email is apparently suspicious.

Re:Obviously on the right track

[dcw3]

How many allies died after Enigma was broken? Just because every threat isn't countered, doesn't mean they didn't know it was coming.

Re:Obviously on the right track

[boristdog]

And few will remember how secret communications used to be done before the days of the Internet.
But for those who do, the world will be their oyster.

Re: Obviously on the right track

[carou]

And here's a good place to start: http://i.imgur.com/71l5luv.png

Re:Obviously on the right track

[RavenLrD20k]

I do this already.

Hasn't worked yet. Psychopaths are still in charge

Re:Obviously on the right track

[gweihir]

That is fine. This is not about catching criminals anyways, it is about identifying dissenters and other "undesirables".

Re:Obviously on the right track

[BlueStrat]

How many allies died after Enigma was broken? Just because every threat isn't countered, doesn't mean they didn't know it was coming.

There's a huge difference between wartime-code breaking of enemy military communications, and the bulk collection/monitoring/analysis of all domestic civilian communications in peacetime in direct violation of the rights and protections guaranteed in the US Constitution. Especially when that collection is sold to the public as being created precisely to stop such terror attacks.

Sorry, that doesn't wash.

Strat

Re:Obviously on the right track

[Slashjones]

Where they lose the argument is that these days privacy is safety

Yes, that is true, but it shouldn't be the *main* point. The main point should be that, even if we assume their actions increase our safety, the ends do not justify the means; freedom is more important than safety.

Re:Obviously on the right track

[bingoUV]

Heh, too much work. All the terrorists should simply be required by law to set a 'terrorist' bit in their network protocols.

Whelp

[Anonymous Coward]

I still got my Guy Fawkes mask, let's do this!

Dear Prime Minister Cameron,

[haruchai]

Let's see you decrypt the following:

Do kindly fuck off at your earliest convenience. Not a terrorist but like Charlie Hedbo, refuse to live on my knees.

Re:Dear Prime Minister Cameron,

[hughbar]

Agree. Actually he can fuck off anyway, an awful prime-minister surrounded by greedy, idiotic cronies...

Re: Dear Prime Minister Cameron,

[Anonymous Coward]

You *WILL* live on your knees. Or whatever the State deems right. You have no choice. You do not and will not have the power to oppose the State, ever. You can rant and rave as much as you want, it won't change the outcome.

Re:Dear Prime Minister Cameron,

[serviscope_minor]

Awful? Dunno, seems like a run of the mill PM to be honest. Saying he's an awful PM implies we regularly get better PMs.

Re:Dear Prime Minister Cameron,

[Richard_at_work]

The alternative offered later this year is either Milliband or Farage - or, god forbid, Alex Salmond if the SNP does win enough seats across the UK to affect the outcome.

There are much worse options than Cameron currently in contention.

Re: Dear Prime Minister Cameron,

[Wootery]

Oh do shut up.

If you had the slightest clue what an actual oppressive regime looks like, I wouldn't have to ask.

Re: Dear Prime Minister Cameron,

[Anonymous Coward]

My father was born in the middle of the Spanish Civil War, and I was brought up in the last few years of Franco's dictatorship. I am well aware of what an actual oppressive regime looks like, and - contrary to the way the media portray it - people did not live in a constant state of terror. An individual's voice had as much meaning there as it does today in the UK, where I live now, but while in Spain you would be proactively silenced, in the UK you will be drowned out by propaganda, and only have your freedom dealt with if you manage to be heard.

The most efficient way of doing the latter is to collect something to use against you in advance.

Re:Dear Prime Minister Cameron,

[gsslay]

Cameron's real problem is that he doesn't understand anything that doesn't have profit as a bottom line. And the greedy cronies that he's surrounded by (it would be a mistake to think them idiots) aren't interested in anything that doesn't have profit as a bottom line. It is, they believe, everything that makes reality work.

There is no obvious profit margin in other people's privacy. Therefore it has no value, and is a hindrance to where profit is to be made. So it must be removed.

Re:Dear Prime Minister Cameron,

[jeremyp]

Living on your knees is entirely appropriate in a modern liberal democracy according to David Cameron.

Re:Dear Prime Minister Cameron,

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't quite seem to get the message. Is it some kind of steganography?

Re:Dear Prime Minister Cameron,

[Anne Thwacks]

And with elections just round the corner, he has a pressing need to prove he is a buffoon beyond reasonable doubt, in order to be in the same league as his opposition.

I am not saying that the lot of them are not motivated by extreme short term profit, but I assure you that they are idiots too. (Occam's razor supplies a best guess, not a guaranteed solution).

Re:Dear Prime Minister Cameron,

[AmiMoJo]

Don't underestimate them. They look like fools but are actually quite skilled when it comes to being malicious. Particularly Osborne and May need to be watched carefully.

Re:Dear Prime Minister Cameron,

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed - Teresa May is such a nasty piece of work. Every time she announces a policy I'm shocked at how utterly despicable it is to vast parts of the population.

Re:Dear Prime Minister Cameron,

[Anonymous Coward]

Farage is exactly what we need. England needs to be England again, without a single trace of islam identity. The PC government have dismantled England to be a former shadow of herself. To criminalise speaking ill of islam in public? Really? I don't give a monkey's toss about their fake religion or the idiot disciples that believe it.

I'm old enough to remember England when it was still English. When immigrants kept to themselves and were not handed special favours, special halal school food dispensations that now, by the way, interfere with actual English children. Am I angry? You're damn right. Look at France. That is the path Old Blighty is on. 10% of France's population is muslim. 10%!!! I pray France sees the light and starts a bit of what the Americans referred to as McCarthyism. To be a muslim publically should be shameful. To be a muslim in England, one of the most storied cultures on the planet, is shameful.

Yes, yes, some of you lot that were born in the last twenty years read my words and accuse me of being a racist. Well, I'm not. I like muslims just fine when they stay where they are supposed to be -- in the middle east.

Je suis Charlie!

Re:Dear Prime Minister Cameron,

[Anonymous Coward]

I would like to see this openness everywhere.

There should be no reason why any citizen should be incapable of reading ANYTHING by government or government-aided entity (e.g. churches, charities, businesses, etc).

Of course, in that case, he thinks there SHOULD be a reason for that stuff to be unable to be read.

Re:Dear Prime Minister Cameron,

[Zaiff Urgulbunger]

Cameron's real problem is that he doesn't understand anything...

Can I just stop you there.


Thanks!

Re:Dear Prime Minister Cameron,

[Anonymous Coward]

Why was this voted down? Really? In an age where muslims want the deaths of all westerns, and a man with good motive like Nigel Farage is highlighted for his good work, this post in voted down? We are going to hell in a handcart.

To those who defend islam and muslims... when they come for you, don't say you were not warned. islam is not a religion of peace. Not even. Having served in the military, I can attest first hand what is done in the name of their "religion of peace" and you lot would vomit up your dinner if you were to see it.

England was once a great place to live. The PC crowd have ruined it, and it's getting worse as the years pass by.

My good mate is a police detective in the south. Because of the PC crap in England, if they have a suspect that is a muslim, they cannot "kick in their door" like they can if their white and English. They actually have to knock, ask if they can come in. If you think I'm joking here, check in this. It's true. My mate is almost at retirement now, after 30 years on the force. He cannot wait to retire. He says that over 90% of all crimes he investigates are caused either by muslims or eatern EU immigrants (gypsy types), yet they go on the dole and ruin it for the English who are forced to pay more and more council taxes, more local taxes, more grief whilst out due to the burgeoning numbers of weirdos and other undesirables -- and government are letting them in. And you lot think Nigel Farage is a problem? Wake up, England!!!

Je suis Charlie.

Re:Dear Prime Minister Cameron,

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't you see the connection? Has has already tried to ban pr0n etc., but with this tool in his hands he will actually succeed. This way the Brits will have what they want and desired; absolute control.

Re:Dear Prime Minister Cameron,

[hughbar]

Yes, I think we have had slightly better though not recently. I'm thinking on the lines of 'more humane'. I had a bit of hope for him as being young, with a disabled child etc. that he might understand a bit about other people's problems. But he's an ex-SPAD [that's a 'special advisor', for those in the US] and ex-Carlton marketing person, so I shouldn't have got my hopes up. He's a prick, Milliband is feeble but also priviledged, Farage isn't a man of the people and runs a party of fruitcakes, so that leaves the Greens [of which I am, pretty much] and, of course, the Pirate Party and the Official Monster Raving Loony Party. I used to regularly vote for the Loonies in the local elections.

Re:Dear Prime Minister Cameron,

[lsllll]

Or he's stating that they are all awful. In recent history in any case.

Re:Dear Prime Minister Cameron,

[Anonymous Coward]

Your "mate" doesn't exist.

Re: Dear Prime Minister Cameron,

[Anonymous Coward]

So, will you vote for Nigel Farage? I think he speaks the truth that most Britons already agree with. The Tories, Labour, and Dems have done nothing to help anyone but themselves, and have muzzled all dissent as you say. We need Nigel Farage.

Re:Dear Prime Minister Cameron,

[Anonymous Coward]

Thatcher and Churchill, Disraeli and Gladstone.

That about wraps it up.,

Re: Dear Prime Minister Cameron,

[Anonymous Coward]

Same in both, those with power do what they like and those with none serve. You're arguing degrees of evil, it still remains evil. Please take your own advise as I'm sick of seeing this dumb argument as an excuse for why people shouldn't be upset about their own corrupt leaders.

Re: Dear Prime Minister Cameron,

[Anonymous Coward]

Obligatory yeah an actual oppressive regime uses electric shocks to the balls and not all this simulated drowning shit so there....

Re:Dear Prime Minister Cameron,

[Anonymous Coward]

James May?

Re: Dear Prime Minister Cameron,

[Anonymous Coward]

If you actually think that's better, I've got a deal for you: I'll take the shocks, you can have the waterboarding.

Pain vs pain and existential terror?

Do the world a favor and practice your waterboarding technique alone in an isolated cabin.

Re: Dear Prime Minister Cameron,

[Anonymous Coward]

And I'm sure all the actual oppressive regimes started with some simple "good for the people" ideology.

Re:Dear Prime Minister Cameron,

[Iman Azol]

Well, I'm agreeable to this, as long as we get to read his communications, too.

Re:Dear Prime Minister Cameron,

[haruchai]

That's never how it works, unless you're an equal.

1984 is not an instruction manual, David

[Anonymous Coward]

If we could hook Orwell's corpse up to a turbine, we'd have the energy problem solved.

Re:1984 is not an instruction manual, David

[Anonymous Coward]

His name is Eric Blair, Orwell was just a pen-name,

Re:1984 is not an instruction manual, David

[Godwin O'Hitler]

Don't use that word Blair!

Re:1984 is not an instruction manual, David

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you implying that he was magnetic?

Re:1984 is not an instruction manual, David

[Anonymous Coward]

If we could hook Orwell's corpse up to a turbine, we'd have the energy problem solved.

Hmm, wouldn't it be better to hook him straight into a dynamo? No need to drive the turbine too...

Re:1984 is not an instruction manual, David

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you implying that he was magnetic? ...spinning in his grave...

Re:1984 is not an instruction manual, David

[rjmx]

Where's a "-1 Pedantic" when you need one?

They allready have it (VPro / VT/ Management Engin

[Anonymous Coward]

" As we all know, terrorists with any technical chops are unlikely to be affected, given the vast amount of freely available, military-grade crypto now available, and the use of boring old cold war tradecraft."

VPro/VT/Intel Management Engine bypasses all this. Spy on the bus, not to mention a built in VNC server that pulls from the hardware gfx buffer.

Bloody revolution is needed.

In the UK men are put in prison for "offensive" tweets.
They can be jailed for life if they don't stop "offensive" "antisocial" speech.

The UK needs to be BURNED to the ground, along with all other likemined feminist leftist European states and the people that run them (they need to be burned alive).

They do not have the right to rule over us. There needs to be an US style revolution there.

Yep, the government _is_ the terrorist !

[Taco Cowboy]

I ran away from China some decades ago because the Communist government of China was more or less acting like a terroristic entity

I ran away from China and ended up in the West, and I thought I am safe ... apparently, I was wrong!

Now the Western nations are trying to become more China than China !

Oooooh, my !

Re:Yep, the government _is_ the terrorist !

[Anonymous Coward]

The word is tyranny, or despotism, not terrorism. However, I'm not sure that even the former words apply (I'm an American).

In the UK and in the US, the basic principle is "government by consent of the governed". This philosophy probably originated by the Athenians in ancient Greece and was further developed by a series of philosophers in England, France, and Germany between 200 and 450 years ago. Unlike the democracy in ancient Greece, its usage in the West does *not* mean that the governed are to be consulted for approval of every individual act done by the government, e.g. reading your email. It *does* mean that the electorate can vote out the politicians at the head of the government, and in the legislatures, if they aren't pleased with their policies in general.

Re:Yep, the government _is_ the terrorist !

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd say it's starting to drift into terrorism territory fairly quick. A tyranny (or other forms of despotic rules) gives absolute power to the ruler, who use force to control his subjects. What is going on right now is more similar to terrorism, using fear to control the masses. It's not a threat of direct violence like a tyranny, but rather a threat of indirect violence.

In fact, this is sounding more and more like dialogue from classic mobster flicks, where the men in suits warn you that not paying for protection might result in your shop burning to the ground or your kneecaps being broken.

Re:Yep, the government _is_ the terrorist !

[perih60]

good on ya ! shot the messinger !

Re:Yep, the government _is_ the terrorist !

[perih60]

i do not live in the us of a . thing is i do hear a lot , much to much about , defend protect , constitution , something called a bill of rights , goverment BY the people , OF the people , FOR the people , i have a question for your consideration . do you really believe that Mr T Jefferson who stated " our liberty depends on the freedom of the press , this freedom can not be limited without being lost " ! meant that the people are politicans ? i am prepared . like the millions of people who gave up their life WORLD WAR 1 , WORLD WAR 2 so we can have this site , to protect your liberty i am willing to give up mine . a person who tries to use an invisibility cloak ( iljkr ) the tragedy here is we have allready lost most of those freedoms

Re: Yep, the government _is_ the terrorist !

[Anonymous Coward]

I bet you can squeal like a pig! Wheee!

Re:Yep, the government _is_ the terrorist !

[Anonymous Coward]

I bet you all consent to the billions of your tax dollar that go into spying on you and us European (not that the EU is any better.)

Re:Yep, the government _is_ the terrorist !

[Anonymous Coward]

> The word is tyranny, or despotism, not terrorism.

Mainland red China was terrorist and still is, to some not small extent. Out of the app. 100 million dead victims of communism, about 2/3rd is attributed to Mao Zhe and the infmaous "Gang of Four", whose "cultural revolution" was a more efficient copy of Joe Stalin's purges.

People were shot or hauled to agricultural "reeducation" concentration camps to be worked to death for as little as being eyeglass wearers! (The thesis was eyeglasses => intelligentsia = reactionary => needs to be purged to achieve the rule of working classes.) After the intelligentsia was eliminated, chinese agriculture and industry both collapsed and some big earthquakes happened at the wrongest time and many millions died of hardships and excessive internal terror that tried to keep up maoist regime. Eventually the Gang of Four were executed and a little softening happened, because US found mainland red China a useful puppet against the USSR.

Free world people cannot even imagine these things, as they have no experience of similar magnitude of terror to compare against...

Re:Yep, the government _is_ the terrorist !

[rbgnr111]

I ran away from China some decades ago because the Communist government of China was more or less acting like a terroristic entity

I ran away from China and ended up in the West, and I thought I am safe ... apparently, I was wrong!

Now the Western nations are trying to become more China than China !

Oooooh, my !

wow...

This is exactly what I remember being told the evils of comunism where about when I was a kid. ... now they do it here.. but don't call it communism.

Re:Yep, the government _is_ the terrorist !

[EuclideanSilence]

"Consent of the governed" disappeared with Lincoln. The right of States to leave the Federation has been forcefully infringed. It's funny how he has the reputation of freeing slaves, when in reality, he just ended up making a slave of everyone.

Re:Yep, the government _is_ the terrorist !

[Anonymous Coward]

It *does* mean that the electorate can vote out the politicians at the head of the government, and in the legislatures, if they aren't pleased with their policies in general.

Can but wont & dont.

Re:Yep, the government _is_ the terrorist !

[DM9290]

"Consent of the governed" disappeared with Lincoln. The right of States to leave the Federation has been forcefully infringed. It's funny how he has the reputation of freeing slaves, when in reality, he just ended up making a slave of everyone.

if you don't like it, you have a right to leave. Slaves didn't.

Re:Yep, the government _is_ the terrorist !

[Anonymous Coward]

I've read your posts. You should run back to China. Hopefully they'll execute you.

Re:Yep, the government _is_ the terrorist !

[operagost]

We criticize Obama for deciding not to enforce laws, but in reality even if Lincoln had simply decided not to enforce the Fugitive Slave Act, that would have been better.

Re:Yep, the government _is_ the terrorist !

[Triklyn]

you realize in some states and some cities, blacks outnumbered whites right? i'm pretty sure they would have been free to join the union if they decided to.

Re:Yep, the government _is_ the terrorist !

[EuclideanSilence]

I wasn't talking about leaving. I was talking about dissolving relations with a governing body. As in, all of us don't like it, so we make you (the government) leave.

Re:Yep, the government _is_ the terrorist !

[NeutronCowboy]

It's called an election. Not my fault that you can't convince enough people to vote for people who'll rewrite the Constitution.

Re:Yep, the government _is_ the terrorist !

[Phoghat]

Just beacuse you can do something, does not mean you should, welcome my friend to the machine

Capable, sure

[phorm]

Sure, you should be capable of reading anything, provided you've got the encryption key, provided you've got a warrant to request it, provided that the warrant is based on certifiable facts and a meaningful threat/need.

Otherwise, fuck off.

Re:Capable, sure

[Anonymous Coward]

Almost all terror attacks are perpetrated by non-Muslims according to FBI and Europol reports. Less than 10% involve Muslim terrorists.

https://www.europol.europa.eu/latest_publications/2
http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/terrorism-2002-2005/terror02_05

One of the largest terror attacks in Europe in the last 10 years were done by a Christian Norwegian, yet we don't blame Christians for it.

Re:Capable, sure

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

It's clear that while not all muslims are terrorists, almost all terrorists seems to be muslims, how about a targeted approach. Normal people know that the problem at the moment is islam, why can't politicians see it.

By the same logic, not all humans are terrorists, but all terrorists seem to be human. How about targeting all humans for surveillance?

Oh wait, that's exactly what they wanna do...

Re:Capable, sure

[Anonymous Coward]

It's clear that while not all muslims are terrorists, almost all terrorists seems to be muslims

Yes that is what happens when muslim shooters are labelled terrorists while others are typically a "mentally troubled lone wolf"
Funny how you get no non-muslim terrorists when you call them something else.

Now, the rest of the world that has a memory slightly longer than that of a goldfish might remember non-muslim terrorists like Anders Behring Breivik

Re:Capable, sure

[Barsteward]

I think thats too simplistic. The problem is down to the books of the abrahamic religions (all 3 of them) being believed and revered and a relatively few nut jobs who will find sections in them to justify their ideas. (And blasphemy laws that make you think these "books" are true)
Its just like the extreme NRA supporters who see anarchy around every corner and need to carry a gun when they go shopping "because its their constitutional right" to do so. Just because something is written down somewhere doesn;t mean you "have to exercise it" as the majority of NRA supporters with common sense don't. Its all the same mindset where they get an idea in their head and fixate on it and cannot stop fixating plus the fact of the delusional religious dogma that says they are going to go to another better place when they die.

Re:Capable, sure

[CeasedCaring]

"Normal people know that the problem at the moment is islam, why can't politicians see it." Because politicians don't watch Fox News! (What I did there, do you see it?)

Re: Capable, sure

[Anonymous Coward]

But what about spoken communication? What if the terrorists have a meeting face to face? The government surely needs all speech recorded as well, right? I don't sell microphones but maybe Ishould start...

Re:Capable, sure

[itzly]

It's because politicians have a lot to lose when they fight islam, and not much to gain.

Re:Capable, sure

[Richard_at_work]

The UK went through 40 years of serious terrorism perpetuated by protestant and catholic Christians, and yet throughout that entire period we never blamed the religion as a whole.

Re:Capable, sure

[mrbester]

They don't need a warrant to get an encryption key. As an added bonus, refusal to hand it over (even if you have truly forgotten it) is an offence.

Re:Capable, sure

[Anonymous Coward]

Not every Killer Whale kills their handler, but most handlers that have been killed, have been killed by killer whales.

We should get some people on that, and intercept their evil plots. Should be easy, the ones with human handlers generally live in tanks.

Re:Capable, sure

[jellomizer]

Of corse you are forgetting the terrorist from the other religions.
The Far East there is a radical group of buddests (known for peace) who is bombing and other terrorist activities.
In general for every faith or idea there exist people who will twist it so they can feel justified to hurt others.

Re: Capable, sure

[Anonymous Coward]

First they came...

Re:Capable, sure

[jeremyp]

That is because the terrorism was not religiously motivated. Religion had a polarizing effect on the population of Northern Ireland, but the motivation for the terrorism was political, not religions: it was the Irish Republican Army, not the Irish Catholic Army.

Re:Capable, sure

[Anonymous Coward]

I forgive you, your ignorance of the Koran.
I'm no expert, but I do know that any religion that commands you to "convert your neighbours" - and then say, "and if, they refuse, they're better off dead".
Don't forget all that wonderful twisting of words and intentions that some extreme muslims are using to rape young girls. They called it a "sex jiihad". When that's taken to mean a holy war, you also need to invoke the rules on war! You see, like Christians, it's a sin to covet another man's wife - but in war, she's fair game.

I'm really brushing over all this, but you begin to see how we're supposed to be tolerant, and allow them to try and convert us, yet when we refuse, and our laws prevent them killing us (on paper, anyway) - they're left in a situation where they either ignore their duty (a sin) or enter a terrorist cell, or finally, which is the case for most, they pretend that by leading their lives as they do - as an example to us, that one day, we'll want to be like them.

That in a nutshell, is why terrorism is a minority exercise, thankfully. But it will never stop muslims seeking sharia law (based on the Koran) where ever they go, So renounce your faith or have your hands chopped off... put like that, it sounds like a terrorist organisation to me. but we're to be tolerant of it, and even welcoming of it within our communities.

You reap what you sew.

Re:Capable, sure

[Anonymous Coward]

Neither is this one. But, just as the r/w talking heads would blame Islam for a war started by the West, IAN PAISLEY blamed Catholicism for a war started by Great Britain.

Re:Capable, sure

[Anonymous Coward]

Its just like the extreme NRA supporters who see anarchy around every corner and need to carry a gun when they go shopping "because its their constitutional right" to do so.

Be thankful for them. They save lives.

Re:Capable, sure

[AmiMoJo]

The Koran is particularly problematic though. The other two books are a collection of stories that are to be interpreted, and the leaders of those religions made sure they were the only ones who were allowed to interpret them and the only ones who had a direct line to God. The Koran is supposed to be the literal word of God, and giving individuals a direct representation of his will and commandments to go on.

Re:Capable, sure

[DarkOx]

The problem is equating every loan idiot to the relatively organized efforts of ISIS and similar groups isn't really useful.

The Islamic terror groups have a well organized recruitment and propaganda system. Groups like ISIS and AQAP come out in support of and encourage others to repeat attacks like those in France last week. They even provide training and funding.

Its a lot more pervasive, resilient, and persistent than Anders Behring Breivik and some fuck tards he drank beer with. Those folks are one-and-done type groups. AQAP, ISIS, and Boko Haram are organized to survive and attack another day.

The Australia attack was clearly ISIS inspired, they guy even wanted an ISIS flag during the hostage negotiation. The media keeps calling him a lone wolf but that really isn't the case, maybe the communication only went in one direction ISIS->Gunman in the form of propaganda but that is still a kind of loose organization.

Its true we are always going to have "I just know they put a microchip in my butt therefore I have to blow up a federal building" crazies out there. There will also be the occasional individual who picks up a bible or a copy of Catcher in the Rye for that matter and decides he has been called to cleanse the earth; its going to happen! Militant Islam is different though. There are no Christian secs with significant populations advocating mass murders, there absolutely are Islamist groups who have large numbers of followers, control of state apparatus, significant military assets, and probably more important than any of that money and talent to get the word out.

 

Re:Capable, sure

[Richard_at_work]

You assume I'm talking about the IRA, I was not - I'm talking about the car bombings, attacks, beatings, fire bombings etc etc etc that went on between the Northern Irish protestant and catholic populations during that same period.

Look it up, its a *very* interesting period for many reasons. The IRA is certainly the fore runner in most peoples minds, but it wasnt the only thing going on in the area at the time.

Re:Capable, sure

[Bongo]

Also, the interpretation step performed by the first two is considered a corruption.

The third is purest and best and absolute, whilst the first two are seen as corrupted.

That's why they can use the same god but still trump all the rest.

So the ideal is, never allow Islam to be corrupted, never, by anything or anyone. Never allow reinterpretation or criticism.

Re:Capable, sure

[Shakrai]

ts just like the extreme NRA supporters who see anarchy around every corner and need to carry a gun when they go shopping "because its their constitutional right" to do so

The Right to Keep and Bear Arms is not a "Constitutional Right." It's a Natural Right inherent to all human beings that is simply recognized by the Constitution. The Constitution does not grant us any rights, our rights are inalienable and endowed by our creator(s)

Your broader point is one of common sense, which I tend to agree with; I don't make a point of carrying my firearm with me everywhere but there are certain places where I will always carry it (the laundromat at 2AM) and recent events (a spree of strong-arm robberies in my hometown) also factor into my decision as to when and where to carry.

Re:Capable, sure

[Richard_at_work]

Interesting that someone didnt like that - why didnt you like it? What was wrong with it? Are you unaware of the sectarian violence in Northern Ireland? Are you unaware of the Orangemen marches, and their symbolisms? Why those marches are banned from going through certain areas? The Apprentice Boys?

You do realise that "The Troubles" covers a much broader conflict than that between the IRA and the British Government, right? That there is massive discourse between many protestant and catholic groups in NI? How about the Holy Cross school dispute? The bricks, fireworks and other things thrown at catholic children as they arrived at school in a protestant area in 2001 and 2002? The fact that those school children had to be escorted to school by British soldiers?

So why the down vote? Does it sit uncomfortably with you?

Re:Capable, sure

[Anonymous Coward]

Wrong, agnostic, but "journalists" have severe problems with reading and listening.

Re:Capable, sure

[ganjadude]

did he do it in the name of Christianity??? I think thats the difference.

Re:Capable, sure

[CrimsonAvenger]

every loan idiot

Lone. I take it you were setting yourself up as an example?

Re:Capable, sure

[stealth_finger]

Paisley says NOOOOOOOOO!

Re:Capable, sure

[fahrbot-bot]

Interesting that someone didnt like that - why didnt you like it? What was wrong with it? Are you unaware of the sectarian violence in Northern Ireland? ...

This is /. so when wondering about some (many?) moderators / posters, one can simply stop with the question, "Are you unaware?" The world is a detailed and complex place and people here routinely comment and moderate without even really reading TFS, much less TFA, and (often?) without much direct information about the topic at hand. Alternatively, it seems easy -- way too easy -- to rub someone the wrong way by simply making one reference to a hot-button word like Democrat, Republican, Fox News, guns ... and suffer a down moderation.

Sure, I'm sometimes (hopefully less than most) guilty of the the same thing, though I don't moderate.

Some people seem to have thin skins and no sense of humor about way too many things -- just ask the people at Charlie Hebdo magazine.

Re:Capable, sure

[phorm]

It does require a court order in the UK, according to WP.

Re:Capable, sure

[gweihir]

"The government secret mind police wants to know": There, a valid and factual reason.
"The secret surveillance court issued a blanked-warrant.": There, the warrant.
And finally "No, you cannot tell anybody, or you will be a terrorist and go away for life into a secret prison where nobody ever can visit you. And sorry, you do not get a lawyer or a trial, that could endanger national security."

See, really easy. Countless totalitarian regimes provide templates for how to do this. This is not in anyway new, just fundamentally and irredeemably evil. If you think "the law" can protect you, then you are screwed. It will do no such things. Instead it will bend to the will of the powerful, like it always does.

Re:Capable, sure

[cyberchondriac]

That was still localized christians fighting other christians, and leaving most of the rest of the world out of it. That would be analogous to the fighting between Sunni and Shia, and no one in the West complained about that either, as that's their business (though it certainly throws a wrench in their claim as THE religion of PEACE).
This is far, far, larger, and spans continents. There are far more people in these terror groups than the IRA could have dreamed of.

Re:Capable, sure

[cyberchondriac]

Right, because a guy who actually was a lone wolf is somehow equivalent to entire organizations comprised of thousands of followers like ISIS, Al Quaida, Al Shabab, Al Nusra, Boko Haram, etc..etc..

Re:Capable, sure

[DM9290]

The UK went through 40 years of serious terrorism perpetuated by protestant and catholic Christians, and yet throughout that entire period we never blamed the religion as a whole.

Probably because blasphemy against the anglican church is a crime in the UK.

Re:Capable, sure

[cyberchondriac]

Well, you can count separate small incidents from the past 40 years in a report that stops at 10 years ago, or look at the overall scope of the attacks and look at a more current report which follows recent trends.
http://www.fbi.gov/stats-servi... particularly page 22.

That Norwegian guy was a monster, but there's another difference: he didn't belong or claim fealty to a large active terror organization. He might've had some loony friends in a small group but by and large he acted alone. There is no current large active christian group that is in anyway remotely equivalent to a group with the size and power of ISIS or Al Quaida.

Re:Capable, sure

[dcw3]

So, if I'm in the business of searching for terrorists, do I need to look at all humans, or can I pair down the search? Based on your logic we'd need to include children and the elderly. Or, is it okay to profile them out of the Venn diagram. I know it's politically incorrect to use the word profiling, but it's also illogical to frisk grandma before she boards a plane.

Re:Capable, sure

[Anonymous Coward]

The UK doesn't recognise that right.
You'll neeeeeed to use you're little guns to get them to. When they have tanks and bombs and are willing to use them (ahhahhaha states are the best! hahahhahhaha) neder neder neder!!

Re:Capable, sure

[friesofdoom]

Not all muslims are terrible people, but coincidentally, they're terrible muslims...

Re:Capable, sure

[Anonymous Coward]

Kill them and send them back.
Nope, the europeans will just continue to harrass and oppress their indigenous populations (with feminism, leftism, jails, prisons).

Re:Capable, sure

[NeutronCowboy]

Great! That means that Al-Qaeda is not about Islam and instead is just about some base for some people, right? The fact that they constantly talk about Islam, Mohammed, and infidels is just a coincidence.

Re:Capable, sure

[Shortguy881]

To say that religious polarization didn't play a part in terrorism in Northern Ireland and that politics doesn't play a part in terrorist acts committed by Muslims, is rather ignorant. And yet, you were modded insightful...

Re:Capable, sure

[Shortguy881]

You don't pay attention to the news much:
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyli...
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01...

Re:Capable, sure

[Anonymous Coward]

Rant warning.

What is the point? In the US our version of "secret police" (the FBI) has been given broad powers of surveillance that directly ignores the laws of the land (our Constitution). And what has it got us? Oh, they can tell us who is sleeping with who, but they can't stop a couple of mad bombers even after being told twice by Russian intelligence agencies that the families have been behaving suspiciously and should be investigated.

To date, not a single terrorist attack has been thwarted by the FBI, except for ones it creates itself in order to make itself look good.

Re:Capable, sure

[Slashjones]

I know it's politically incorrect to use the word profiling, but it's also illogical to frisk grandma before she boards a plane.

Here's an idea: How about government thugs not harass innocent people? Get rid of the TSA and don't use this "profiling" nonsense to harass different groups of innocent people; everyone has rights, and that includes people acting 'suspicious' according to some government thug.

Re:Capable, sure

[Slashjones]

I do not like political correctness, but my position is based on my desire for the government to follow the constitution and respect people's liberties. I value freedom over safety.

Re:Capable, sure

[Slashjones]

The Constitution does not grant us any rights, our rights are inalienable and endowed by our creator(s)

Creators? Which? I don't believe in magical sky daddies or any sort of higher power.

Re: Capable, sure

[Anonymous Coward]

"Absolutely no Christian secs [sic]..." Except, you know, most of the evangelical American "mainstream."

See: the U.S.-sponsored Ugandan "kill the gays" bill, most everything Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and co. have said for the last 30+ years, every semi-orgiastic Armageddon fantasy ever.

"Religion of peace" my ass. They should all be deported back whence they came.

Re:Capable, sure

[Anonymous Coward]

Mostly funded by Americans as well. I wonder, do they still send money to Irish terrorists ?

Re:Capable, sure

[Anonymous Coward]

You are calling the IRA muslim?

Idiots at work

[whoever57]

I imagine that the Prime Minister thinks that he can force Google and other emails providers to hand over emails to GCHQ and, crucially, the Prime Minister cannot comprehend the idea that people can set up their own email server.

The same argument goes for other protocols.

Probably, no one, other than politicians and Dail Mail readers, takes this seriously. It will be forgotten about after the next election.

Re:Idiots at work

[Anonymous Coward]

they probably already do get mails and other data on the internets, either directly or through an ally.

Re:Idiots at work

[davester666]

emails are already fair game, as they generally aren't encrypted [as in gmail has the plain text to hand over].

while they claim this is for terrorism, the only terrorists they could catch using this 'idea' are the very dumbest ones [shoe-bomber dumb].

but what they really want is for regular people to not casually use communication methods that they cannot read. they can't have this, and they know that require the big established players like facebook, google, apple, microsoft, yahoo to keep communications insecure, the vast majority of people will continue to use the services anyway, just through inertia.

Re:Idiots at work

[AHuxley]

People could go and find a book on the one time pad idea. Or become a number station and just pump out a daily stream of random material.
The UK wants to be able to reconcile every message into and out of the UK.
Tempora gave the UK that ability https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
The first hop will be seen and then the destination ip within the UK after a connection within the UK or after global networking with Tor.
The idea about that system is to ensure the world still thinks a Tempora system is too complex, expensive and would not be legal.
The whole point of a national telco tracking database is lost, if you dont keep it a secret! Why tell the world?
All the people of interest can revert to couriers, number stations, faith, cults, holidays, sabbaticals and just meet in person.
Does the UK hope to see a set of people not making the usual calls and going for an unexpected holiday? The traveling and off the network watch list?
The other hope would be to make parallel construction legal in the UK in open courts. All the people of interest can just revert to older safe methods of communications.

Re:Idiots at work

[Anonymous Coward]

And what they're doing is spying on comms into Britain which is almost all British communications, and handing it to the NSA, a foreign power. When they look back at why East European spy agencies worked for the KGB, which ensured that those countries would only elect officials compliant to the USSR wishes. Can they not see the parallels?

Re: Idiots at work

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't make the mistake of thinking that a technology can't be made unusable just because it can't truly be completely stopped. There are less than 2,000 average daily Tor users in China, despite their population of ~570 million internet users. And considering how much easier it is to use the Tor Browser Bundle than administer a mailserver, how many people do you think will really do that? And what will the UK do in response?

Re:Idiots at work

[Anonymous Coward]

But they sure don't work hard to crack the ones heading in and out of tax havens.
So many idiots who don't know the meaning of the word 'Jurisprudence'. Whats this about the thread of English law, Magna Carta, and the crown or King not having it all their own way. If they were bugging the Queen - their heads should roll.

Re:Idiots at work

[Anonymous Coward]

The majority of email is sent in the clear as text. So these can all be sniffed. Aren't they putting boxes in ISPs and on international cables to sniff everything anyway?

Re: Idiots at work

[Anonymous Coward]

How about learning a new language? Or all communications must be in English too?

Re: Idiots at work

[AHuxley]

AC :) Become a number station and just pump out a daily stream of Russian material.

Re:Idiots at work

[CastrTroy]

The problem is that a system like this would pretty much be impossible to implement. When I request a web page, and it uses TLS for HTTPS, It generates a key just for the connection specifically so that compromising the private key of the server does not allow past communications to be decrypted once the private key is compromised, or if the case of a law like this, when it is taken out of escrow. The only way to implement this would be to backup the actual data itself along with the corresponding generated key.

Obviously since he didn't mention encryption specifically, he probably has no idea what he is talking about and is just spouting his mouth off, but this is exactly the kind of thing that leads to dangerous laws that are either completely unable to be implemented in real life or are disastrous to the advancement of technology.

Re:Idiots at work

[Anonymous Coward]

Daily Mail readers *vote*. That's the worry - that this is just the Spectre of Cyber-Caliphate-Mageddon whipped up to get some fear votes. The policy would then be quietly retired to a slow committee to discover how impractical it is.

Re:Idiots at work

[Zaiff Urgulbunger]

It is sooo dumb, but I think it is more to do with pandering to the electorate than anything. A good few years back, there was a report of some guy using a radio scanner to listen in to the police, find out where the queen was going to be that day, and then post it on the internet. I don't think he was doing it maliciously, but probably not a clever thing to do, and you can see why the security services would be unhappy with this. Anyway, one thing that came out from it was that there had been a plan to introduce encrypted radios, but they'd cocked it up or something.

Oh, and the solution to the problem? Ban radio scanners. You know.... 'cos then bad people won't use them, what with them being illegal.

* Some details may be inaccurate as this is from memory.

Re:Idiots at work

[gweihir]

Private email servers will simply be outlawed and land you in prison for a few decades.

Re:Idiots at work

[Anonymous Coward]

Dream on. Your own email server? Hahaha! But your "own email server" is using pipes that are already routed through GCHQ, Cornwall, and other places (I'm looking at you BT). Do you have your own pipe, whoever57, that isn't routed through anyone else's whatsoever? Thought so.

No. The technology is already in the hands of Cameron's paymasters/bosses (alright, let's be nice and call them lobbyists).

All this shit is about changing the LAW . (You know, as in 'the presumption of innocence'?) The technology is something they already own. What they don't have yet is the LAW that says Cameron's bosses can do what they like and abuse the technology for whatever they want to do with it.

Re:Idiots at work

[davester666]

He's mainly talking about end-to-end encrypted text/audio/video between individuals, where the service doesn't have the ability to decrypt it [supposedly like how Apple's FaceTime/iMessage work]. For SSL web pages, they are generally to a specific company which can be served with a warrant and the unencrypted content retrieved that way.

But he totally knows exactly what he's saying, because he'll have had experts tell him. The people he really has to worry about won't be affected by these laws. He MIGHT catch a couple of lone wack-jobs [people that basically self-radicalize and blurt out something stupid]. But anybody serious, like actual 'terrorist cells', in the sense that normal people would consider the term, will not be caught by this [well, they might in the sense that the security services will focus on who is using encrypted services that they can't readily decrypt, but they won't be decrypting the messages].

Re: Idiots at work

[TheGratefulNet]

I predict the return of a million russian woodpeckers

flood the 'watchers' with so much junk data, they won't be able to keep up.

(I can dream, at least, can't I?)

Re: Idiots at work

[AHuxley]

Now that the UK wants to see every web page and understand all communications :)
Very interesting idea re the much junk data.
Create daily web pages with note blocks with one time code ready Cyrillic script.
One open to public bots searching the net. Another with a tag to tell robots not to index. Wait a few months and enjoy the logs :)
Print some and enter into any local UK art competition :) Encourage the random viewing public to copy down the 'art' work as they view it :)

Re:Idiots at work

[Agripa]

I imagine that the Prime Minister thinks that he can force Google and other emails providers to hand over emails to GCHQ and, crucially, the Prime Minister cannot comprehend the idea that people can set up their own email server.

Do you mean like how the United States Government thinks it can force Microsoft in Ireland via Microsoft in the US to do the same?

Starting with him?

[s.petry]

Funny how these guys and gals make such strong claims, but never want to be the victims of their own policies. Don't worry, we have the same exact rules in the US where politicians are immune to laws, and rich people of course. The only people subject to laws are the "common" people, or in the words of Henry Kissinger and his ilk "the useless eaters". Yeah yeah, some of their "business" communications may be classified but their emails to gramma should be fully available for public consumption.

Petitions should go up immediately: Politicians are the "trial" batch for seeing how this works and the public requires full access to their personal communications. Beta group, or what ever you want to call them. A 2 year moratorium should be placed on any other changes pending the usefulness and feedback from that group. Further, anyone with a net worth of more than 50 million should be in the same pilot group, or perhaps make them group C phased in 1 year after the politicians are snooped upon.

Lets also not forget that the recent terrorists in France _were_ snooped upon and used zero encryption on their mail. They were just missed in all the noise, probably because of the massive haystacks of data people "claim" they need to find something. Bigger haystacks don't make needles easier to find, quite the opposite. Many of our security experts on both sides of the pond have said that same thing.. repeatedly.

Re:Starting with him?

[grahammm]

And also repeal the official secrets act and make public all communication between civil servants. After all, what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Governments need to remember that they are the servants of the people not the other way round,

David Cameron! Read THIS communication!

[Chas]

FUCK YOU! You big-brother assmunch!

Government or Authorities?

[Roger W Moore]

Let's hope he means "the authorities" and not "the government" since the government consists of MPs and if they have to be able to read it they will probably need to outlaw words with more than 3 syllables and writing something in a language other than English will count as use of advanced encryption.

Bottles and horses

[CauseBy]

In other news, UK Prime Minister David Cameron has vowed to put the genie back in the bottle. On the way to do that, he's going to shut the barn door and go looking for his horse.

Re:Bottles and horses

[Anonymous Coward]

On the way to do that, he's going to shut the barn door and go looking for his horse.

Judging from what is coming out of his mouth, the key to recovering it might be taking a laxative. There just is nothing that could make him throw up.

The UK is an evil place

[Lawrence_Bird]

as is its little brothers Australia and NZ. Canada gets a pass since they have hockey.

Re:The UK is an evil place

[Anonymous Coward]

I live in New Zealand. It wasn't too many years ago (2005 I think) that the local cops had a huge bust of drug dealers, because they were communicating in plain text through SMS, and the police were simply taking the messages and reading them.

I wonder what else they got.

Re:The UK is an evil place

[Anonymous Coward]

I also live in NZ, we have hockey, but its encrypted.

funnily enough

[Anonymous Coward]

it's not the terrorists attacking a magazine's office that affects your free speech...
it's the government's RESPONSE to said attack on a free speech medium, that will have a much larger impact in limiting your free speech.

The irony is rich, yet the statist types will NEVER understand this.

Don't Understand

[Anonymous Coward]

What I don't understand is that Cameron has to know this is ridiculous... right? The UK could ban iOS and Android applications that facilitate secure communication... sure. But cryptography is still real and the algorithms are still out there. As long as people with brains have access to computers, the internet, and software development tools, it will be possible to have secret communication. Full stop. What's next? Are they going to ban compilers? Give me a break.

Are terrorists really stupid enough to communicate with something backdoored? ISIS, Al Qaeda, etc. - these organizations have resources, protocols, and discipline, right?

Can someone weigh in on this? What am I missing here? What is the rationale? Is Cameron just making noise to win the hearts of those who agree with him?

Re:Don't Understand

[Barsteward]

" Is Cameron just making noise to win the hearts of those who agree with him?" - yes, there is an election in May this year.

now that Sony has been hacked

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure Eric Schmidt is saying..."well if Sony wasn't doing anything wrong they'd have nothing to hide. They don't need encryption. The NSA / GHQ should record everything"

Wonder what happens when Google gets hacked and all Eric Schmidt's emails are made public... if you have nothing to hide Mr Shit... then open your email to public review please.

military-grade crypto now available

[Anonymous Coward]

You children live in fantasyland. Well, maybe it is military-grade, only means the military has shit then.

And to hear all you kiddies telling the government to 'fuck off'... How quaint! So innocent

Gotta stop all those law abiding terrorists...

[GoddersUK]

The terrorists have no problem with breaking the law to kill and murder people on kamikaze missions... but I'm sure they're nice reasonable people who will stop using encryption if we make it illegal.

Re:Gotta stop all those law abiding terrorists...

[Anonymous Coward]

They're fighting against the Republicans so most anything they do is justified. For the rest of us, we're just victims of the Republicans.

Re:Gotta stop all those law abiding terrorists...

[Richard_at_work]

We all know that's not the goal, so stop going for the cheap mod points.

If you stop people being able to do something legally, then the vast majority of law abiding people stop doing it. Hand guns were de-legalised back in the 1990s, and hand gun ownership dropped dramatically - so now its easy to make a judgement call as to whether than gun you found on that teenager with a hoodie is actually legitimate or not, without having to go through a license check etc. So it makes it easier, and less time consuming, for the police to remove guns from those who shouldn't be in ownership of them.

We have seen it a lot with various things over the years - mobile phone use in cars, smoking in enclosed public places, various "legal" highs etc etc.

The same thinking goes for encryption - allow only government approved encryption for the law abiding and when you come across a message which uses non-approved encryption then it has a higher likelihood of being related to something the police would be interested in rather than just Auntie Gene's shopping list shes sending her son.

Note - I don't agree with the sentiment, but the thinking is sound.

Re:Gotta stop all those law abiding terrorists...

[Shakrai]

The terrorists have no problem with breaking the law to kill and murder people on kamikaze missions... but I'm sure they're nice reasonable people who will stop using encryption if we make it illegal.

It's worked for the gun control movement; we made carrying a firearm during the commission of a felony illegal and presto, no more gun violence.

Re: Gotta stop all those law abiding terrorists...

[Anonymous Coward]

Can you have a gun in the UK? No. And you won't be able to have unbreakable encryption as well. You won't be able to get a computer without "public safety features", either. And you won't be able to keep your current one beyond an "amnesty period". It's over: they won, we lost.

Re:Gotta stop all those law abiding terrorists...

[GoddersUK]

Except, unlike with guns, the internet is multinational and there's no reason to believe that the government is going to (or even can) force foreign companies with no UK offices to comply. So unlike guns, even if it's illegal, just about every innocent person will continue to use strong encryption (TLS with PFS, for example) on a daily basis - potentially without even realising it.

Re: Gotta stop all those law abiding terrorists...

[GoddersUK]

When that happens I'm out of here. I'll go and find a country worth living in.

Re:Gotta stop all those law abiding terrorists...

[Lord Kano]

No, The thinking is consistent , not sound.

It's a good thing when law enforcement officers have to take time to do their jobs. The power of the state is a terrible and awesome thing. The last thing a free society needs is law enforcement with spare time.

An idle cop is a cop who will find something to do. If his job is to arrest people and present cases for prosecution, he'll find new and creative ways to make that happen.

In the UK, they're doing random searches for knives...That's unthinkable in most of my country.

Mandating the use of compromised cryptography doesn't benefit the citizenry. It makes it possible, and arguably inevitable, that the government will use the knowledge of people's private communications to quash legitimate dissent.

For example, it's alleged that the FBI had knowledge of MLK cheating on his wife. How do you think the department of justice would have used that information if they had captured emails or naughty text messages proving it?

I'll take risky freedom over the safety of an overpowering government, any day.

LK

Re:Gotta stop all those law abiding terrorists...

[cyberchondriac]

Instead of taking away more of everyone's rights, maybe the peeps at 10 Downing Street should be a little more precise in their targeting the problem and exile idiots like Anjem Choudary, and get his followers out of their country. Religion is no excuse for violence, it already gets away with too much.. like not paying taxes.

Re:Gotta stop all those law abiding terrorists...

[zlives]

"exile idiots" and lose the stick to pass whatever they feel like. well i guess they could always go back to "think of the children".

Re:Gotta stop all those law abiding terrorists...

[Anonymous Coward]

We all know that's not the goal, so stop going for the cheap mod points.

Isn't that the whole point of Slashdot?

C'mon admit it!

My encryption key

[Anonymous Coward]

My encryption key is the full text of a copyrighted book that was never licensed to me nor anyone in my country.

If I told you it or wrote it down, it would be public performance or copyright infringement.

Yours,
Trollface Q.C.

Re:My encryption key

[Anonymous Coward]

You would be extraordinary rendition-ed to a country with weaker copyright laws...

Re:My encryption key

[Anonymous Coward]

http://xkcd.com/538/

With an Idiot in charge

[Roger W Moore]

This is why it will fail. Not because it would destroy everyone's privacy but because it will destroy the privacy of large, international companies. They will threaten to move out of the UK, the tories will panic and the bill will disappear until the idiot in charge forgets again and attempts to resurrect it for a third time in a couple of years from now (assuming he survives the general election).

Re: With an Idiot in charge

[Anonymous Coward]

Why should they? When the banking secret was killed by the EU, the banks did not threaten to go elsewhere. Of course large companies will be able to obtain permits to use "stronger than allowed standard encryption", but it will change absolutely nothing for you and me. Privacy is dead. Get used to it.

Re: With an Idiot in charge

[Anonymous Coward]

"Privacy is dead. Get used to it."

Pay it forward. Kill them too.

Re:With an Idiot in charge

[Anonymous Coward]

Or they will close the borders and create the software & services "in-house". Just think about the employment figures...

Fuck Cameron

[Anonymous Coward]

somebody get him out of his office

Re: Fuck Cameron

[Anonymous Coward]

The alternatives are of the same mind unfortunately. There is no way to win in the UK where politicians are either in thrall to the security services or being bribed by them.

Re:Fuck Cameron

[Z00L00K]

Politicians needs to be changed more often. The longer they are in place the dirtier they become.

And considering the fact that information can be hidden in images etc. using steganography it would be easy to circumvent the ban.

Re: Fuck Cameron

[Anonymous Coward]

The Liberal Democrats are not of the same mind, and I suspect the Greens are not either. Sure, don't vote for them if you don't want to, and based on the sum total of their policies you may not want to, but don't give the misleading impression there is no choice.

This is the biggest problem with Western style democracy, and the reason I don't vote. There is no party that doesn't have a policy I fundamentally disagree with sufficiently to feel unable to vote for them at the ballot box. What is needed is a more a la carte approach where parties have to win public backing for individual policy areas. That would do a huge amount to increase accountability of politicians and public trust in, and engagement with, the political system.

Re: Fuck Cameron

[l0n3s0m3phr34k]

At least you have the resemblance of a choice. In the US, we have liberal and conservative "power elites" of the current Corporatocracy with a crazy Christian "let's return to the laws of Leviticus" fringe group hammering them both at the edges. The Christian Fringe is actually being duped by the conservative Corporatocracy to push laws that favor "religion" in business that are really nothing but tax dodges and discrimination. We have no Greens, no real Progressives, just two sides of the same coin. Our choice is do you want the Corporatocracy in your face (Republican) or behind your back (Democrats). Neither really want any progress towards "freedom" except the "freedom" to increase the size of their bank accounts.

Hell, "we the people" even put people who think Biblical passages will protect us from climate chaos in charge of the EPA (Inhofe). I hope Cruz won't decimate NASA, and it's being very optimistic that he will only cut funding for climate studies. Many of our politicians where already in politics before the computer was even invented and will never really understand the Internet. I dream of a USA that has a true multiple-party system, but that's not even what we have now.

Old story

[Anonymous Coward]

... "comprehensive piece of legislation" ...

Translation: You, the voters, are the problem.

Unfortunately, conservative government increasing the 'them versus us' divide is not self-correcting. Yes, those 'problem' voters will elect a different government but the next government will want unlimited power just as the current government does.

Re:Old story

[cyberchondriac]

Largely because they're not allowed to profile anymore. Instead of ousting the extremist elements in their country, they don't dare because everyone starts screaming about Islamophobia and discrimination. And then, OTOH, boldly proclaim that ISIS is not Islamic. Go figure.

Then we need plausable means to deny the key

[Karmashock]

For example, lets say we don't have just one password that secures everything but thousands.

Then we can... OOPs forget it when ever the government asks and we don't want to share.

Re:Then we need plausable means to deny the key

[Z00L00K]

Just use the Declaration of Independence as key. That would be ironic.

Re:Then we need plausable means to deny the key

[Karmashock]

I get what you're saying but that is not constructive. We need a plausible means to deny the key.

Their attack is ultimately coming through the legal system. So we need to think about what works in a court of law.

If we can find reasonable ways to forget keys then we can reasonably claim to have forgotten them.

Re:Then we need plausable means to deny the key

[easyTree]

And that's the problem as they also control the legal system.

Re:Then we need plausable means to deny the key

[Anonymous Coward]

Create two mountable images of equal byte size. Fill one with your secret data, fill the other one with pictures of kittens. Encrypt your secret data with a random one time pad of the same size. Now diff your encrypted image against the kitten container to create another one time pad. Transport your data and when the authorities asks for the key, give them the pad from your diff. Voila! Your secret data is now a bunch of kittens.

Re:Then we need plausable means to deny the key

[Karmashock]

An interesting idea for sure. I think we definitely need to make it harder for them find the information encrypted or not in the first place.

Re:Then we need plausable means to deny the key

[Anonymous Coward]

Only loosely. The courts have told the government to sod off many times.

Re:Then we need plausable means to deny the key

[Anonymous Coward]

This can be achieved by having WIDESPREAD and ALWAYS used 2-layer data encryption. The size implication is around 2x normal size.

Hidden layer encryption security (mode 2) - Use sparsely
Each encrypted block of data would actually contain 2 blocks, where 1 block is the sensitive data and encrypted with the secret key, then both blocks are encrypted with the sacrificable key

Standard layer encryption security (mode 1) - Most used
Same structure as mode 2 but the hidden block is filled with random data. This mode should be used as often as possible to protect the hidden usage of mode 2.

When mode 2 is finally quietly used, a separate "mode 1 looking" message must be constructed to proved the user with full deniability of a second hidden message.

In case asked about the random data, you would say it was appended to the message to increase the security of the encrypted message to an attacker.

Re:Then we need plausable means to deny the key

[AmiMoJo]

Keep a few of those fake USB flash drives from eBay that claim to be 32GB but are actually 128MB around. Make sure they are full of corrupt data. When required to hand over your key, hand them one of those drives and tell them that the keyfile is on there. If they damage it while trying to read the data back, then they destroyed the key and there is nothing you can do about it. Chances are some low level thug, sorry constable will have gathered it up along with anything else electronic when they raided your house anyway, so there would be plenty of opportunities to damage it.

Floppy disks are even more fragile, if you still have a working floppy drive.

Re:Then we need plausable means to deny the key

[Karmashock]

I've seen people with encrypted volumes... the issue is that they tend to keep them in their unlocked state. That is, encrypted but mounted and readable. If you cut power to the system the data would be safe but they use their encrypted data so often that it is hard to say it doesn't exist.

A certain amount of this might require physically isolating sensitive information and making it difficult to find PHYSICALLY in the event of problems. Obviously encrypt it as well but really your goal here should be to not let them get it. If the data is on a thumb drive they don't have then maybe that will deter them.

Re:Then we need plausable means to deny the key

[Karmashock]

That's an interesting idea. Ideally damage it before hand. Just keep a smashed USB drive handy and say the key file is on that... "Wait, what did you do to it?!"

That's pretty solid. Where to keep the real key file though?

Re:Then we need plausable means to deny the key

[AmiMoJo]

Your computer has hundreds of thousands of files on it, the key could be any of them... With software like TrueCrypt you can have both a keyfile and a password, or just a password. There is no way to know which option you selected, so you don't even need a real keyfile.

Re:Then we need plausable means to deny the key

[Anonymous Coward]

Get a "friend" to smack you in the head with a hammer then get a doctors note.

Re: Then we need plausable means to deny the key

[Anonymous Coward]

Forensic analysis of your computer will reveal which filed were used at any time and how often. And TrueCrypt has been compromised. When are you going to get into your heads that IT'S OVER?

Re:Then we need plausable means to deny the key

[kylemonger]

Let's hope they believe you've forgotten the keys before they intermittently pour water down your nostrils for a few days. Plausible deniability only works well if you're dealing with people whose actions are constrained by reason and the law. Ask KSM how not knowing the answer to some questions worked for him.

Re:Then we need plausable means to deny the key

[Karmashock]

You mean this guy:

""Mohammed traveled to the Philippines in 1994 to work with his nephew Yousef on the Bojinka plot, a Manila-based plot to destroy twelve commercial airliners flying routes between the United States, East Asia, and Southeast Asia. The 9/11 Commission Report says that "this marked the first time KSM took part in the actual planning of a terrorist operation."[29]""

""According to a CNN interview with intelligence expert Rohan Gunaratna, "Daniel Pearl was going in search of the al Qaeda network that was operational in Karachi, and it was at the instruction of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed that Daniel Pearl was killed."[44] On October 12, 2006, Time magazine reported that "KSM confessed under CIA interrogation that he personally committed the murder."[45]""

Because fuck that guy.

Re:Then we need plausable means to deny the key

[kylemonger]

Well, yeah, KSM earned every morsel of agony he enjoyed at the hands of the CIA. But even when he didn't have any information, they kept on torturing him. These are the same bastards who'll come for you and me if they think our communications are linked with some kind of national security threat. You want to have something to tell them when you've finally had a bellyful of pain? Or do you want to hope that the twentieth time is the charm when you tell them that you really, REALLY can't remember that password? The law is no impediment to these sick people.

Re:Then we need plausable means to deny the key

[Karmashock]

I'm not KSM and I don't like being referred to as him or it implied that one day I'll be strapped down and given the same treatment by the CIA.

It isn't credible.

During WW2 we did that and worse to Nazi spies.

During the Cold War we did that and worse to Soviet spies.

Terrorists technically fall into the same legal and moral spot that spies or sappers fall into. Sappers are like spies only instead of getting information they sneak bombs into places and blow stuff up. Typically rail yards, factories, and other places important for war logistics.

Point is... legally I a country can eat a spy on international television... alive. They can cut little bits of him bit by bit and eat him. There are literally no limits. Spies are understood to have ZERO rights if caught by an enemy.

During WW2, the US caught a lot of German spies. They were interrogated for a week or two and then executed. No laws of the Geneva Convention were broken.

I am not feeling bad for KSM. He's a piece of shit and you could have sold tickets to kick the man in the balls in Gitmo.

Please pick another example that isn't understood to have gotten exactly what he had coming if you wish to imply any moral wrong doing.

Re:Then we need plausable means to deny the key

[currently_awake]

And this is why the police use a keylogger. And if this actually caught on they would use it as an excuse to crack your computer remotely.

Politician on anything to do with science/tech

[Anonymous Coward]

Political statement "I have no idea how reality works and I refuse to find out!"

Re:Hope the muslims win then.

[Ziest]

I don't wish any member of the US government to be put to death, what I do wish is for these bastards to be stripped of all their wealth and privileges and forced to live in a roach infested studio apartment in the bad section of town. Then I would force them to work as an assistant night fry cook at Walley's Wonderful World of Burgers in Festering Boil, Oklahoma. These people have forgotten, if they ever knew, what the rest of us put up with in order to keep a roof over our heads and food on the table. We need to have these people learn what real work looks like.

They don't act enough

[Anonymous Coward]

Governments (well, "Western" ones) already have enough intelligence to know who the terrorists are. But they don't act. They wait until the plot is underway, sometimes with police help to sting the terrorists, before doing something. Presumably, the legal framework cannot deal with terrorists very well and this is the area that should be addressed more than always reducing our privacy in order to increase the odds of finding terrorists 2 minutes away from killing people...

Re:They don't act enough

[Cenan]

They don't just wait. They let the actual plot play out. If there were no random acts of terrorism, how would they go about arguing for increased capabilities? The mass murderers in France were well known and were allegedly also being watched. They found an ID in the car? How convenient.

in the US

[Anonymous Coward]

We need a right to privacy bill, stat!

Re:Hope the muslims win then.

[hughbar]

Yes, I agree. My formalised version of this is 'apprenticeships' for anyone that wants to be an elected official or senior paid official, is that they have to 'train' for a a year or two in a project [US], estate [UK] of scheme [Scotland] and live on the basic umemployment amount. Most people at this level are doing their best and are often incredibly brave and motivated, two jobs, long shifts etc.

Also this would mean that people prepared to do this, probably did have serious motivation to improve society rather than just enrich themselves and do nothing. However, I'm sure, after a couple of years they'd probably find a way to pay someone to do this for them.

My 'other' plan is a hole in the school floor that opens when any pupil expresses a desire for/interest in politics. It's probably the most humane way, although a little difficult for the parents. Trouble is. that might dispose of the the Mandelas and Ghandis too.

Again, this has nothing to do with terrorism

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

All 3 Charlie Hebdo terrorists were known extremists and were under surveillance. The French authorities simply dropped the ball and fucked up - for lack of resources or for negligence.

They could convincingly make a case for vastly increased means of putting known terrorists under 24/7 surveillance, but the Charlie Hebdo attacks are a really poor argument for enhanced decryption powers, because the FUCKING TERRORISTS HAD BEEN CLEARLY IDENTIFIED ALREADY!

Clearly this is yet another exploitation of people's fear-du-jour to bring the world closer to a panopticon society. Me, I'm more scared of the government than muslim terrorists. 1984 anyone?

Re:Again, this has nothing to do with terrorism

[Anonymous Coward]

More like they collaborated with the terrorists to plan the attack, as probably happened in Woolwich, London 7/7, and numerous other recent examples.

Re:Again, this has nothing to do with terrorism

[Detonia]

More like they collaborated with the terrorists to plan the attack

The worrying thing is, whilst I don't believe this is the case, it really wouldn't surprise me.

Re:Again, this has nothing to do with terrorism

[Z00L00K]

So did the US government for 9/11... They did know of the terrorists but didn't stop them because they thought that they didn't have enough hard evidence against them.

Re:Again, this has nothing to do with terrorism

[laird]

That and the White House de-prioritized terrorism, and ignored the clear warnings that they were repeatedly given. Why?

Re:Again, this has nothing to do with terrorism

[Anonymous Coward]

More like they collaborated with the terrorists to plan the attack

The worrying thing is, whilst I don't believe this is the case, it really wouldn't surprise me.

Very odd how the policeman tasked with the investigation 'committed suicide' before completing his report.

Re:Again, this has nothing to do with terrorism

[Copid]

Exactly. Every time something like this happens, the government appears within a couple of days and says, "We've used the data we have to reconstruct everything that happened. Also, in order to prevent future attacks, we need more data." The story they're telling is not consistent with needing more data. It's the story of an organization that's awash in so much data that it can't make any useful predictions from it. It's only useful in hindsight.

Re:Again, this has nothing to do with terrorism

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't it obvious? Because Obama's an atheist-socialist-islamo-fascist commie and clearly in on it.

Re:Again, this has nothing to do with terrorism

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah, so they just need to be able to detain people without evidence?

Re:Again, this has nothing to do with terrorism

[laird]

9/11 was under Bush. Are you arguing that Obama made Bush de-prioritize counter-terrorism?

settled law - roe v wade

[NotQuiteReal]

Well... and doe v bolton

To paraphrase B. Franklin... "You have privacy, if you can keep it."

Burn the witches

[Anonymous Coward]

So what is next?
Are we going to burn witches (hackers) at the cross again.

Used to live in the UK. Will never go back. /HeilCameron

Re:Burn the witches

[Lumpy]

Nope, I suggest we burn politicians instead.

it eliminates the possibility of hurting someone innocent.

Idiots at work

[mcfedr]

Unfortunately this is a recurring theme that GCHQ has tried to push on each of last few governments seemingly in an attempt to legalise what they are already doing.

Worth it

[mcfedr]

Its hard to say what i would think, when it comes to a personal family member, but honestly, freedom is worth the price.

Speechless.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sad and furious. Those are the goons we are paying to protect our values. Need to puke.

How to spot an authoritarian

[dbIII]

A "conservative" by dictionary definition does not advocate radical changes, such as removal of the right to communicate privately with banks, business associates, relatives, lovers etc.
Keep that in mind next time one of these authoritarians tell you how conservative they are.

Re:How to spot an authoritarian

[Z00L00K]

Also keep this in mind when saying "Liberal" when you mean "Socialist".

Re:How to spot an authoritarian

[Lumpy]

Also keep this in mind when saying "Conservative" when you mean "Fuck the Poor".

Conservative has not had the proper definition for decades. Today it's all about helping the rich friends that fund re-election coffers.

Re:How to spot an authoritarian

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, that is completely untrue.

Re:How to spot an authoritarian

[eeyore]

I thought that a conservative was a liberal that had just been mugged, and that a liberal was a conservative who had just been stopped and searched by the police.
--
E

Re:How to spot an authoritarian

[Kjella]

A conservative's overall goal is to preserve the status quo, they're reactionary (looking to prevent change) rather than radical (looking to provoke change) but they can be just as extreme in justifying means to an end. Fundamentalists for example are in general conservatives, they want you to keep living exactly by 1000+ year old books. For some that means living like the Amish, others use camera phones to post beheading videos on YouTube. The full scale from embracement to rejection to eradication is justified as means to an end, they can be every bit as crazy as radicals.

The fundamental concept of a warrant goes all the way back to the bill of rights and probably further, there was never an absolute right to privacy. Modern encryption is often rendering warrants meaningless, sure you can wave a piece of paper but the modern day "letter" is wrapped in a safe you couldn't blow up with dynamite and the key only exists in my head, the world has changed whether the conservatives want it to or not. What they want is to turn back time, what they end up doing is either abolishing warrants or abolishing private communications. It's not like one is significantly less conservative than the other, they're both long standing customs.

Re:How to spot an authoritarian

[dbIII]

Not necessarily:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Party_of_Australia
That lot can be defined as currently against anything that could be seen as socialism, even if it's really just Christian charity. They've strayed a bit from the ideals of their founder but some members may agree with this quote from when it was set up by Menzies:

As the etymology of our name 'Liberal' indicates, we have stood for freedom. We have realised that men and women are not just ciphers in a calculation, but are individual human beings whose individual welfare and development must be the main concern of government ... We have learned that the right answer is to set the individual free, to aim at equality of opportunity, to protect the individual against oppression, to create a society in which rights and duties are recognised and made effective.

They are in the International Democrat Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Democrat_Union) just like the US Republican Party is.

They are of course just as "liberal" as they are "conservative" and they are known to have Christian values for several minutes on Sundays or if a TV camera is pointing at them - they make a big deal about those values (which must be in perfect condition because they don't get any use) especially around election time.

Re:How to spot an authoritarian

[dbIII]

However many who call themselves that do have a goal of radical change. Take the example here for instance of removing privacy.

Re:How to spot an authoritarian

[Z00L00K]

Which just highlights the fact that when you say "Liberal" in the US you actually mean "Socialist".

Re:How to spot an authoritarian

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly! Precisely! Oh how I wish I could remember my login right now. But I probably wouldn't be able to mod you up anyway. This is the structure of society now:
Billionaires > politicians > politicians' friends > a few more tiers > poor fuckwits like me

Re:How to spot an authoritarian

[dbIII]

No, they really mean "commie satantic bastard who is not one of us". Socialist is another term used in a way that doesn't match a dictionary so is effectively meaningless in the USA apart from being a generic insult from someone too much of a weasel to use a real insult.
Similarly "libertarian" means a cool sounding self applied label that has the word liberty in it, and has no actual indication of what the ideals of the person actually are. Any criticism of libertarian ideas seems to end with someone saying they are not from a "true libertarian" even if it's a quote from someone like Koch who ran under that banner.

STASI think the same

[Anonymous Coward]

I notice UKIP, a competing party to the conservatives, have had their private phone calls leaked.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-30467897

How exactly can it be that old phone calls are recorded then leaked just as a person stands for an elected seat. Let me guess... GCHQ.

So, what if?

[Anonymous Coward]

Mr Cameron: "Do we allow terrorists the safe spaces to talk to each other? I say 'no we don't".

So what if they would communicate trough cartoons in a newspaper?

So much for Conservative freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

So much for Conservatives and their non-intrusive government policies respecting individual freedom.

Hrmpf

[Mirar]

The UK government really don't like it's people.

Pity Scotland didn't manage to leave.

Turn it around instead. Let the people see all official documents and plans.

Re:Hrmpf

[Richard_at_work]

Yes, its a pity Scotland didn't manage to leave - Salmonds plans would be right down the shitter at the moment as his entire fiscal policy was based on North Sea oil and gas income, which has just been completely slashed for the forseeable future. Losing Scotland would have been worth it to see him try and talk his way out of that.

Re:Hrmpf

[jabuzz]

Yeah I live in Scotland and voted No. Was really worried at the time, however the vote was nowhere near as close as advertised mostly due to what I would describe as voter intimidation by Yes campaigners.

However I would like another referendum next month so we can hammer the SNP's economic plans for the lies they always where and get another No vote to shut the them up permanently.

I would note the SNP have been very quite on the issue of oil and gas prices and the impact this would have had on their fiscal plans for an independent Scotland.

Any communication?

[elgatozorbas]

They can start by reading my family doctor's notes.

Re:Any communication?

[Richard_at_work]

You realise that unless you have opted out, there is already third party access to your doctors notes, right?

Re:Any communication?

[Anonymous Coward]

More information about opting out is here: http://www.bigbrotherwatch.org.uk/.

Great site, and they helped me to:

  1) Get off the commercially available electoral roll.
  2) Get my DNA out of the DNA database (yes, it can be done).
  3) Mark my medical records as excempt from sharing with 3rd parties.

Good luck!

Privacy in the UK is almost dead...but not quite.

Re:Any communication?

[Richard_at_work]

If you are at a practice which uses SystmOne (yeah, thats not a typo, there really isn't an e in Systm) then ask your practice to add these codes to your notes: XaZ89, XaaVL.

Re:Any communication?

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks for the tip, will do.

Re:Any communication?

[Anonymous Coward]

woosh!

I think grandparent post meant the doctor's notes are illegible.

A move of desperation

[Anonymous Coward]

In a so called democracy. They already have unprecedented law about handing over keys, which smells more like North Korea than a country respecting civil and human rights of it's citizens.

Re:A move of desperation

[Anonymous Coward]

revolution.

Re:1984

[Barsteward]

"seriously...compare France and England...England is practically Saudi Arabia...a really high culture progressive Saudi Arabia." - so you are an avid watcher of Fox News. http://www.independent.co.uk/n...

"I really just don't understand why England doesn't ditch their monarchs completely." - because the monach has no power, they are just window dressing that attract a load of tourists and sycophants

I agree

[Chrisq]

UK Prime Minister Says Gov't Should Be Capable of Reading Any Communications

Yes, literacy level in the government is appalling, something really should be done about it,

I don't get it...

[jonwil]

Some random guys in ski masks shoot up a newspaper office because the newspaper prints something they don't like and all of a sudden most of Europe wants to bring in censorship and restrictions on the freedoms that a democracy is supposed to bring? Isn't that exactly what the terrorists want? Shouldn't we (and by we I mean the democracies of the world and their citizens) be protecting our freedoms in the face of bad people like this?

I dont support terrorists but I also dont support most of the actions that have been taken by governments in the USA, UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, France, Germany and elsewhere in the name of the so-called "war on terror" (there are some measures like strengthening and securing cockpit doors that do make sense though)

Re:Hope the muslims win then.

[Anonymous Coward]

in a project [US], estate [UK] or Scotland

FTFY ;)

Re: 1984

[Anonymous Coward]

That isn't true. The royals regularly meddle in political affairs through use of secret communications with the government that are protected by law. They also have the power to veto any changes to law (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/theroyalfamily/9801835/Queen-and-Prince-Charles-using-power-of-veto-over-new-laws-Whitehall-documents-reveal.html)

Bit late isn't it?

[91degrees]

There must be hundreds of online message boards that support SSL and private messages, and operate outside of UK jurisdiction. Technically this would include facebook, except they're a bit too chummy with governments to actually protect this stuff. And if I PM a bunch of people on a forum about crochet or whatever it's not even likely to be flagged as suspicious behaviour.

And in 5 years time...

[waynemcdougall]

An in due course, will leader of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition David Cameron accept that Prime Minister Edward Milliband, as leader of the government should be capable of reading any communication such as Conservative party policy, election and campaign plans, electorate candidate profiles, and such-like.

I mean, he did say: "any communications"....

UK Citizens say, the gov't shouldn't be capable...

[kig8472]

...of reading any communications.

Mirrors Edge

[Rainwulf]

WAS a dystopian future.. WAS.

Re:Mirrors Edge

[Z00L00K]

Or Max Headroom.

UK = Hypocrites

[Anonymous Coward]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_reactions_to_the_Charlie_Hebdo_shooting

Prime Minister David Cameron told the House of Commons, "[...] we stand squarely for free speech and democracy. [...]"

This is the same country that:

* Arrests people for saying "offensive" things on Facebook/Twitter
* Prosecutes people for having "offensive" Japanese manga featuring lolicon, yet defends cartoon images of the Prophet Muhammed which some members of the Islamic community finds "offensive."
* Sends GCHQ thugs around to a newspaper to smash their hard drives and other perphierals into a gazillion pieces
* Has secret trials
* Forces people to disclose their passwords for encryption volumes or other things such as websites and jails those who fail to do so

Need I go on?

They allready have it (VPro / VT/ Management Engin

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, the governments going down that route are mostly conservatives leanin on the liberal-right edge.

Re:Hope the muslims win then.

[Anonymous Coward]

You always hear of good politicians and CEOSs in other countries, Thai Premier's Daughter to Work in McDonald's http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=afLtNTAa2iFA , The President of Uruguay is famous for giving his salary away and working on his own small farm. In Japan, during hardship CEOs take basic salary and many politions and CEOs will take the underground to work.

Deniable encryption

[kevlar_rat]

It's called Deniable encryption and it's difficult to do correctly

Happening already?

[clickclickdrone]

I thought they were already recording and keeping pretty much every byte of the Internet and other comms in the UK anyway. Even thought I missed a major IRA bomb back in the 90s by about 20mins, I can still safely say I'd much rather have my privacy and take my chances on the tiny risk of injury/death by terrorists. Crossing the road or getting in my car is way more riskier. Heck, doing the decorating at home is more risky. Privacy please. Get out my business.

Re:Happening already?

[Anonymous Coward]

They are recording and storing everything for when ECDLP is broken (probably by quantum conputers which are being worked on right now), they they can decrypt it all and mine the information

They allready have it (VPro / VT/ Management Engin

[Anonymous Coward]

"The UK needs to be BURNED to the ground"

"There needs to be an US style revolution there"

Wait, what? So you're not even British and you presume to tell us how our country should be run? Sure, there is plenty I would fix about *my* country, but I wouldn't presume to tell you how yours should be run or to foment revolution there. You appear to find it acceptable to burn people alive; I would not wish to live in a country you had any hand in running. You're as bad as ISIS. Kindly fuck off and die.

As an American

[Anonymous Coward]

Some may believe I am not qualified to interpret this English matter, but I feel I have the authority to state:

David Cameron is a a cocksucking, ass-liking, uncle fucker. He's an uncle fucker, yes it's true. Nobody fucks uncles quite like David Cameron.

Nelson is in tears and Wellington is choking on his beef, at the thought that gendarmes are needed to keep the populace in check.

Three Syllables?

[Anonymous Coward]

You think is things go good and they good think but big words not think so good in House.

Re: 1984

[Anonymous Coward]

They can write to politicians, just like anyone else. And if they ever used their power of veto it would trigger a constitutional crisis and would be the end of the monarchy, and the Royals know it. There are plenty of ways the elected politicians could destroy the monarchy without requiring new laws (deallocation of funding etc.) and rest assured if it came to it they would have public support. But actually the views of the key Royals appear to be pretty sensible, I wish more constituent - MP communications were along similar lines.

Carpe Diem

[jbrown.za]

As the saying goes ... never let a good crisis go the waste

Re:Hope the muslims win then.

[Godwin O'Hitler]

"Trouble is. that might dispose of the the Mandelas and Ghandis too."

We probably wouldn't need quite as many Mandelas and Gandhis. Both of those rose up against regimes run by politicians, remember.

politician's syllogism

[kevlar_rat]

This is the politician's syllogism at work: "Something must be done. This is something. Therefore this must be done".
The horror of the Hebdo attacks is that they are attacks on the freedom of speech. Allowing the gov't to spy on all our internet traffic is a far greater attack, because anonymity is the best defence of free speech. It's like someone responding to seeing you have a nosebleed by cutting off your head with a chainsaw "to make sure it doesn't happen again" .

One day...

[Anonymous Coward]

A government in the west will sit up and realise that stripping our freedoms away is simply capitulation to the handful of extremists who carry out these kinds of attacks annually.

One day...

The governments of the west may realise that spineless revocation of our rights is capitulation to a handful of extremists.

One day...

The governments of the west may come to realise that the instead of capitulating to extremists, they should be bolstering our freedoms, celebrating them in the face of those who want to see those freedoms revoked. Je Suis Charlie!

One day...

Western governments may realise that they are giving the extremists everything they want and demonstrating a hard and uncomfortable fact, that if our freedoms are so easily stripped away because of the rage of an extremist; then our systems are no better than those of any middle eastern despot.

One day...

As western nations race to the bottom of outdoing one another for restrictions on and interference with our liberties we the people may realise that we are not governed by a democratically elected government, but by those who hold the extremist views who dictate what our governments will take from us next until we wake up and realise that policies must change, nothing will.

Re:One day...

[Anonymous Coward]

They need to be overthrown, killed.

They ban everything men might want.
Guns, Girls (female children), Privacy, etc.

They need to die.

Re:They allready have it (VPro / VT/ Management En

[Godwin O'Hitler]

It's a bit harsh burning the UK just for being submissive, like.

Re:1984

[Z00L00K]

The English monarchs are today just figureheads without power.

Gives the English a certain level of glamor and are tourist magnets.

Not worth to waste any effort on to try to overthrow them. Save your energy for the true problems - corrupt politicians with power.

Dear UK

[Detonia]

Could everybody please stop having curtains and locks on their house doors?
It's helping the terrorists.

Signed, D. Cameron

Re:Dear UK

[Anne Thwacks]

I recommend banning pencils and paper too: you can use them to plan terrorist plots.

Hell, even wax crayons can be used to draw porno-pictures on used wrapping paper.

Why not go the whole hog and ban education too?

Re:They allready have it (VPro / VT/ Management En

[Anonymous Coward]

The english happily locked people in buildings and set them ablaze during their wars. What's good for the goose...

Re:They allready have it (VPro / VT/ Management En

[Anonymous Coward]

So instigating revolution? That's a thought crime! - and so is discrediting the government. I'm sure you could be brought up on terrorist related charges for comments like that! I wouldn't answer the door, if I were you.

Basically, I'd say the whole argument is one-sided. Commerce over the internet requires security. Government wants all our keys! Guess where Anonymous will hack on a daily basis? (as well as terrorist entities).

If large corporations like banks who have millions to burn on investment in infrastructure, and security, and software development - can't create a totally secure system (look at what we were sold with chip n pin) - or perhaps internet banking where phishers catch a lot of normal people out. What stupidity places trust in a government, when they can't manage their own IT, let alone advise the rest of us what to do.

no, my friends - this is just political bullshit. Make it look like they're doing something, and standing tough on terrorism, where nothing could be further from the truth in this case.

Actually, it's probably something they've wanted to impose on all of us for a long time, but didn't have the reason to do it.
So, along comes the reason (convenient, don't you think?) and it just so happens they've already got this shiny new legislation ready to roll!
Compare that, to say, anything to do with devolution of powers back to Scotland, which hasn't happened in the least since their referendum, and you begin to wonder how they came up with this so fast.

Put another way..
PROBLEM: terrorist attack on our freedoms, and they used secure internet as a means of communication!
REACTION: Do something! Can't you track / stop these terrorists? What do we pay our taxes for?
SOLUTION: here's that legislation you'd never agree to, but now you will! SUCKERS!

Re:Hope the muslims win then.

[reboot246]

Hey, I live in Festering Boil, Oklahoma! We don't want those assholes here. We have it bad enough already.

Free speech is impossible under mass surveillance

[Kazoo the Clown]

The fact that these scum choose to use the Charlie Hebdo attack to justify it particularly stinks. I'm sure the Charlie Hebdo victims weren't doing the cartoons in order to get the government to outlaw free speech, but that's the impact such action would have.

Encryption insures you can speak freely without the chilling effect of knowing your government may be listening. To ban it is clearly to eliminate freedom of speech.

Sounds Great!

[Lumpy]

So, when is he going to allow all UK citizens to read his Mail, Email, and listen in on his phone conversations?

His ass needs to lead by example.

How exactly would this work?

[Anonymous Coward]

Leaving aside the poor justification, if we for a moment consider Cameron's insane idea from a technical standpoint, how exactly would he ban techniques such as steganography or any other encryption that would look like plain text but isn't?

Also, would ROT13 be banned?

Confused subject here, please help?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a bit confused. Maybe my brain isn't sufficiently capable of comprehending all the deep logic behind the fine reasoning of this gentleman...

But let's recoup:
- First, you climb into the highest mast to proclaim that, we, the free people of the West, should not succumb to this terrorist scum, who has minted their anger freely at our right of "free speech and expression". That we, the Big F*cking Free World, should unite and show *them* that this will NOT stand. We will defend our right of free speech and expression, no matter where, when or what.
- So, about a week later you come by and say... Well, to effectively combat those harbringers of evil and deniers of free speech, we must now, once and for all, stop this thing called encryption, because it's the tongue of the devil. No-one shall henceforth speak in the tongue of the devil, as free speech is only for those whose intentions can be clearly understood and agreed upon.

What part of right of free speech and freedom of expression am I missing?

Dear Mr. Cameron, let me give this message to you:
Tb shpx lbhefrys jvgu n 10sg cbyr, zl qrne Ze. Pnzreba.

Re:Confused subject here, please help?

[lsllll]

Tb shpx lbhefrys jvgu n 10sg cbyr, zl qrne Ze. Pnzreba.

Go fuck yourself with a 10ft pole, my dear Mr. Cameron.

Just saving a lookup for some people.

Re: They allready have it (VPro / VT/ Management E

[Anonymous Coward]

Connservatives in the US are utterly incapable of seeing that authoritarianism these days is squarely in their camp. the UK does a few things that are very slightly to the left of the right wing fascism that is the United States. Therefore that makes them communists to the ignorant righties here.

Here we go...

[herve_masson]

After the Charlie event, I wondered how long it would take before politicians start speaking about stuff like that. It did not take too long, that was expected. They are so predictable... This event creates great opportunities for some to push a long standing agenda. Noting new here.

Hopefully, people in France remain really prudent about the "privacy vs security" debate, and viscerally attached to liberty (but not necessarily to privacy). I have seen some ex minister asking for a "french patriot act"... some other saying that "we could easily give up a few liberties [for the sake of better security]". But most of them seem to stay in the right side of the line [well, in my opinion].

Charlie magazine people constantly fought for liberty, to death. Yes, they died for that; they knew they were a target for radical islamists. They were on police surveillance for that.

I don't think we need to answer their death with ... less liberty. We need to assert our liberties more than ever, and global internet spying is not helping [in my opinion again].

Re:They allready have it (VPro / VT/ Management En

[Anonymous Coward]

There needs to be an US style revolution there.

Yeah, that worked so well for you guys. Now you have a perfect system of government. *facepalm*

God and the Devil

[ThatsNotPudding]

Just as Satan is God's Most Valuable Employee (doing exactly what he needs done), Terrorists are the same for Dictators (and those that dream of being a Dictator): a perfect - some might say purpose-built* - excuse to destroy what they fear the most: the freedom of true privacy.

* - As some one pointed out on Twitter: ask yourself why Al-Queda has never even once tried to attack Israel.

Re: God and the Devil

[Anonymous Coward]

Because they don't give a shit about the problems of the Palestinians? Not all radicals (or people, I'm general, obviously) have the same agenda...

Totalitarian Cameron

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, I'll be going around the doors campaigning against a The totalitarian Cameron. Clearly no such powers are compatible, either with liberal values, or with democracy. Cameron just sounds crazy, spouting such nonsense.

The code-crackers are smarter than the poster.

[Anonymous Coward]

> As we all know, terrorists with any technical chops are unlikely to be affected, given the vast amount of freely available, military-grade crypto now available

The poster has it the wrong way. The "5 eyes" can already break any crypto, but that is super expensive in reasonable time and effort. By reducing the amount of hard crypto traffic on the net, NSA/GCHQ can easily sort out the escrowed, uninteresting stuff and only focus on the problems that need cracking. Which is a huge advantage compared to the current situation, with a lot of quite hard-to-crack encrypted traffic used for BS content like bootleg copies of Angry Bird 4, funny kitten videos from Youtube or JP manga from NicoNico.

Why bother?

[laird]

It's easy to set up secure communications within a small, trusted group. So this won't affect any real terrorists that are organized enough to be a real threat. They just install PGP (for example), just as anyone else can. And since the security is end-to-end, it's secure no matter what mail system it passes through. And no matter what laws anyone passes, math still works, so end-to-end encryption is secure from anyone attacking the security. And it's open source, so they can't sneak in corruptions to subvert security. Math doesn't care about politics - if the attackers are your government, or foreign attackers, it's all the same math that protects your communications.

What it will do, though, is let them collect tons of data from from people who aren't serious terrorists. Think of the fun the can have with that!

The real answer to terrorism isn't increased surveillance, or the "magic pixie dust" of data mining, it's real police work. That's what's stopped ever terrorist attack (that's been stopped) so far. If they cared about security, instead of surveillance or big equipment contracts, they'd focus on the stuff that works. Hire lots of smart people, train them and equip them, and pay them well, to do the hard work. The rest, attempting to outlaw encryption, scanning people's shoes, etc., is all a stupid waste of time and money, degrading our society's freedom (i.e. doing what the terrorists want) while achieving nothing of value.

Re:1984

[Anonymous Coward]

the answer is in your post. " attract a load of tourists" .. just think of the money that creates for the economy

Re:Hope the muslims win then.

[ganjadude]

and here, obama plays golf and makes people getting married move their wedding (after turning down the invite because he was to busy)

yeah, we need to get our politicians back in touch with reality, at least the reality for the majority of americans.

Why Clipper and SkipJack failed

[Antique Geekmeister]

The Clipper Chip, and the SkipJack tools based on it, mandated, were a high grade hardware encryption for which the government would hold all the private keys. It had several flaws, and was discarded when it turned out to violated several patents of Silvio Micali, an MIT professor. It also turned out to be possible to generate your own private session key, which the government would not have, by running it for about 45 minutes communicating to another such chip and testing keys until you found one that passed the "Law Enforcement Agency Field" hash check. It was also expensive, about $25/chip.

Unfortunately, Microsoft and the "Palladium" technology, renamed "Trusted Computing", have achieved most of that chip's goals with even less legal protection. The "Trusted Computing" tools used to lock modern computers from booting with unauthorized kernels and built into hardware encryption and DRM for modern Windows systems has pretty much the same capability, with _Microsoft_ holding all the private keys in escrow. They hold the master keys, they hold they key signing keys, and they have the ability to _revoke_ and replace keys on active systems so you cannot even access your own hardware after such a revocation. And there is no direct judicial oversight even _available_ for such a company owned private repository. It's even more dangerous than the central signature authorities for SSL keys, which mostly protect transient communications. It's like a central, corporate owned repository for GPG private keys, along with the ability to rip the keys out of your hardware with normal software security updates.

Amusingly, it has a fundamental and embarrassing technological flaw, much like the Clipper Chip. It can be software emulated in virtualization environments. So the DRM capability, which is a major factor in _funding_ its development, has been made somewhat poiintless. "Trusted Computing" protected documents and especially visual and audio media can have their displayable content tapped from the byte streams of the video and audio outputs.

Here's a ideal

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey Europe and the free world. Here's a ideal. Maybe you should stop letting in people with radical tendencies and deport those you arrest and detain for those very same radical histories. Like a home owner who openly let's a robber into their home thinking they convince the person not to kill and rob them because they sympathize with the robber? These terrorists have be headed people for simply not belonging to a certain religion. Stop wasting time sifting through everyone's personal stuff. You know who is doing these evil acts now do something about it. Take the war to them, stop waiting for them to come to you.

Mathematical illiteracy

[Anonymous Coward]

> There should be no "means of communication" which "we cannot read", he said.

Someone needs to give politicians a crash course in basic concepts of cryptography, and explain that you can't just overcome the laws of mathematics by legislation...

Re:Mathematical illiteracy

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe they should also tell them about this thing called "free software," and that planting backdoors in every piece of software isn't going to be so simple.

Re:Hope the muslims win then.

[stealth_finger]

It would be great to see every member of the UK government tortured to death, with the exception of the royal family.

Why, because they get straight up executed?

Exceptions?

[Anonymous Coward]

I expect that if Cameron's brain-dead proposal is adopted by the UK govt, there will still be a class of user who's communications are not so encumbered - those of the idiots in the govt. who proposed this in the first place! Of course the Law doesn't apply to THEM! When someone tells me "This won't hurt, trust me!" I start looking for a bottle of morphine for the pain to come!

It WAS religiously motivated.

[Anonymous Coward]

How the CLUCKING FUCK do you get the idea it wasn't when the protestant marches (one sect) walking down another street where catholics (a different sect) causes riots ALL THE FUCKING TIME?!?!?!

You're just as well off claiming the islamist terrorists are not motivated by religion, but by a demand for secular power change. It's just a bloody accurate and supported.

Re:Hope the muslims win then.

[rwa2]

I don't wish any member of the US government to be put to death, what I do wish is for these bastards to be stripped of all their wealth and privileges and forced to live in a roach infested studio apartment in the bad section of town. Then I would force them to work as an assistant night fry cook at Walley's Wonderful World of Burgers in Festering Boil, Oklahoma. These people have forgotten, if they ever knew, what the rest of us put up with in order to keep a roof over our heads and food on the table. We need to have these people learn what real work looks like.

So, uh, Mike Rowe for President, then? Sounds good, the few political statements he's made have been bipartisan and very well thought out.

Target all religions.

[Anonymous Coward]

ALL religions put it as "right, proper and correct" that mere BELIEF that something is real is PROOF that it is, and that anyone claiming otherwise IS A BAD PERSON.

The religion of the moderate is the "gateway drug" to fundamentalist religious terrorism, because if you believe god talks to do and that anything god claims you must do is not only real, but what you MUST do, morally, then there's no difference between your religion and these terrorists, except what they believe god is telling them to do.

Peter Sutcliff believes that Jesus Christ told him to kill those women. Jack the Ripper probably thought the same.

Not all religious people are terrorists, but most of the terrorists are religious. So get rid of the idea that any religious belief has any validity.

Well that took longer than I though.....

[dablow]

To be honest I thought they would be asking for more power the day after it occurred.

Also these morons do not realize that whatever draconian spying tech they use against the unwashed masses can and are often turned against themselves....lol...in fact it is more so a danger to them vs Joe Schmoe nobody.....

He's an ignorant

[Anonymous Coward]

And even worse, he doesn't know that he doesn't know. The stupidest UK PM in a while, beating even John Major.

What we would like to see is:

[Anonymous Coward]

Prime Minister Says Citizens should Be Capable of Reading Any UK Government Communications

Unfortunately, with their (and our) leadership that would only happen in some sort of alternate universe. What I do find enlightening is the part about the "comprehensive piece of legislation" at the first part of the write-up:

'The BBC reports that UK Prime Minister David Cameron has vowed to introduce a "comprehensive piece of legislation" aimed at there being no "means of communication ... we cannot read," in the aftermath of the Charlie Hebdo attacks in Paris.'

This is talking about encryption. What has that got to do with the Paris attack? There's no evidence it would have helped. Sounds more like something I think Hillary said, "Let no disaster go unused." They've just been wanting an excuse to pass this one for some time.

"in the aftermath of" the false flag 'attack'...

[Anonymous Coward]

Problem-reaction-solution...

And who monitor the monitors?

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck him

Re: They allready have it (VPro / VT/ Management E

[Anonymous Coward]

What's good for the goose makes the whole world blinf.

Re:They allready have it (VPro / VT/ Management En

[Anonymous Coward]

What the hell does "feminist" have to do with anything? You do realize this is the kind of action of a conservative, right-wing government, right?

awww and there was so much we taught them

[DrPeper]

Yes, over 4 of your former "provinces" have rebelled against you (SUCCESSFULLY I might add) but yet you continue down the same path of monarchy and corruption... I for one vote for NOT freeing you when you are (rightfully?) conquered again.

Yep, the government _is_ the terrorist !

[Anonymous Coward]

Now the Western nations are trying to become more China than China !

Oooooh, my !

The UK perhaps. The "western nations" are much more than the UK, or even the english-speaking world.

Re:Hope the muslims win then.

[Anonymous Coward]

Every country needs a history.
There's no reason to kill the monarchs after you've destroyed all the people under them who were actually working against you.

Capacha: MarryYoungFemaleChildrenBecauseTheyAreCuteAndNice
(or rather: "lasses")

Who's to say what's encyption?

[Anonymous Coward]

Say I generate a random string of text. Is it just a random string, or might there be an encryption key lurking out there, in ASCII-space, that can reveal a message? What constitutes a message? Maybe I intended to send someone garbled junk just for the fun of it. Who's to say?
If we were to plant random text on someone, would they be forced to cough up a key, lest they be jailed? Information is a trickier concept than our legal system is prepared for. It's time for a substantive re-thinking of what it means to communicate information, what information means or could mean, and how information relates to privacy.

This is obviously...

[pigiron]

the reason we rebelled and wrote privacy into our constitution.

Don't Understand

[Anonymous Coward]

They don't care. They want more power.

EU != UK

[Roger W Moore]

Why should they? When the banking secret was killed by the EU, the banks did not threaten to go elsewhere.

There is a large difference (of almost 400 million people) between the EU and the UK. Large businesses cannot afford to pull out of the EU, much like they cannot afford to pull out of the US. However I imagine they would be far less adverse to moving their HQ from London to Frankfurt, Dublin or some other non-UK, EU location.

Re:Hope the muslims win then.

[NeutronCowboy]

There are a few of them that grew up exactly like that. They show little difference with the rest of the politicians. Why? Because if they got to their position, anyone can, and those who don't become part of the 1% are clearly just lazy moochers.

Being poor in the US is either a temporary embarrassment or proof of being a bad person. It's quite amazing how alive Calvinism is in the US.

Re:Hope the muslims win then.

[Anonymous Coward]

So, uh, Mike Rowe for President, then? Sounds good, the few political statements he's made have been bipartisan and very well thought out.

I was right there with you for several years, especially after his TED talk. Then he opened his mouth about police using excessive force and essentially blamed the victims. I couldn't believe it. Kicked him down a couple of notches in my book.

Mike Rowe for president

[rwa2]

Oh, this? https://www.facebook.com/TheRe...

I don't think I read that in quite the same way... it sounds like his main point is that Ferguson was essentially an unfortunate confrontation between asshole cops and asshole teens, and we shouldn't let an episode of "when assholes collide" dominate the national debate between law enforcement and minorities. It's not fair to our black friends and it's not fair to our cop friends (especially the ones who are not assholes).

That said, there's a lot of work we have to do from both sides to help improve race relations and authoritarian abuse of power, to provide good examples of how people ought to treat each other. The media portrayal of both cops and minorities is terrible and serves as a bad example for impressionable youths and law enforcement officials. We ought to figure out some way of giving good role models more media exposure.

Re:Hope the muslims win then.

[hughbar]

Cheers! Sorry about potential confusion...

Re: Hope the muslims win then.

[Anonymous Coward]

Frequently worse, sadly. I've met very few "self-made" men that have the slightest interest in acknowledging their extraordinary success, despite frequently crowing about precisely that subject.

Just the Tories

[bitterblackale]

The PM only speaks for England, and only the side who aren't really that into tech. The Scots, who are actually the leaders of technology in the UK and who barely acknowledge the existence of Mr. Cameron are overwhelmingly liberal.

You totally misunderstood Mr Cameron

[Optali]

What he wanted to say is that they will push a law forward to teach the government personal and MP to read, write an basic arithmetic. All except for the UKIP MPs who will be treated according to their level of evolution and mental capacity: They will thus have a piece of glass shoved up their butts and tied to poles in the North Sea were they can be useful producing pearls.

1984

[Anonymous Coward]

Because if we did we would get a PRESIDENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

almost all attacks by non-muslims?

[Anonymous Coward]

Your write: "Almost all attacks are perpetrated by non-muslims"?

Consider this:

Your "Christian Norwegian" killed 100 people in 1 day.

The Muslims, on the other hand, come from Paris, Hamburg and London, and have killed 500 women in one day.
Scroll down to August 10, 2014, to see how it's done: it's done by _burying the women alive_.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Yazidis_by_ISIL