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FedEx Won't Ship DIY Gunsmithing Machine
An anonymous reader writes Last fall, Defense Distributed — the company created by Cody Wilson of 3D-printed gun fame — announced a DIY gunsmithing machine called the Ghost Gunner. Now, FedEx is refusing to ship the device, saying there are laws or regulations that would prohibit them from shipment. A FedEx spokesperson said, "This device is capable of manufacturing firearms, and potentially by private individuals. We are uncertain at this time whether this device is a regulated commodity by local, state or federal governments. As such, to ensure we comply with the applicable law and regulations, FedEx declined to ship this device until we know more about how it will be regulated." Wilson argues, "They’re acting like this is legal when in fact it’s the expression of a political preference. The artifact that they’re shipping is a CNC mill. There’s nothing about it that is specifically related to firearms except the hocus pocus of the marketing."
There are no regulations covering firearms manufacturing equipment; at least not YET. They are just covering their asses.
Hand tools can make firearms,
household cleaners can make explosives,
a sponge can be used to choke someone to death...
You can not regulate possible future events,
you can not outlaw human free will.
I have worked for fedex for 15 years. I assure you this is not a hippie liberal company.
Corporations are naturally risk adverse. And it doesn't matter if it's a marketed mill... we can't ship a ball bearing certain places if you tell us it can be used on a tank. Regulations are what they are.
Can't they refuse to ship anything on whatever grounds they want, or are they mandated to carry anything that they aren't banned from shipping?
Because that's all it is... and there are plenty of cheaper ones out there.
Lol. If he just told the FedEx rep that he was shipping 1'x1'x1' aluminum mills, there would be no problem. This is what he gets for over sharing. It's like telling police officers you smoke weed.
Intent matters. You sell a bong as for tobacco and you're fine - you sell it as "FOR GETTING HIGH ON MARIJUANA" and you're in the shit. Argue with the law if you want (although the law makes a lot more sense than geeks like to think), but don't argue from a position of ignorance.
So here's a guy who calls himself a "libertarian", declaring that it's not legal for a private entity to refuse to do business with him based on their political views.
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
If that's all it is, then there's not much of a problem. People can just order one of the other CNC machines.
ones explicitly protected by the US Constitution are ignored?
You mean like how you're ignoring the First amendment? Assuming this actually is Fedex taking a political stance on your worst nightmare and not just risk aversion, where in the second amendment does if force private businesses to ship equipment designed for firearms manufacture?
In a related story, rest easy with that 45 under your pillow because you've won the war: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N...
Now can we focus on real problems?
sex toy industry... It's not hard.
I see what you did there....
Which has more power: the hammer, or the anvil?
You have no legal right to have FedEx ship your items for you, as far as I know.
Is this somewhere in the Constitution, or some other law?
It's almost like he was more interested in publicity than in actually shipping a product.
People who say "sheeple" have about as much sophistication as an AOL user, and in fact are probably actually AOL users.
Watch out for tools in general folks. Imagine if you bought a screwdriver online - it could be used to make BOMBS and such. That's why we have to ban all the tools.
Rights do not exist, not in the Jeffersonian "inalienable" context. Not natural rights, or god given rights, etc.
What the people may generally think of as Rights are just Privileges that are "assumed". Rights are whatever the masses 1) can be duped into thinking, or 2) have duped themselves into thinking; they are.
They are not just avoiding a legal liability situation, but an ethical liability situation as well.
They won't ship a CNC mill for the above stated reason, yet they'll gladly ship functional firearms on a regular basis?
Bingo. Where I live, having more than four sex toys is an "obscenity" state jail felony as per Texas penal codes. So, they are sold as "teaching devices", "medical mockups", or other items.
This is a fight that doesn't need to be dealt with. Just call it a CNC mill, which is designed for fabricating automotive parts. Hoppes calls their #9 product, "lubricating oil", instead of "gun oil." Might as well not have to deal with a wedge issue when it comes to business if one doesn't have to.
I understand why a company would worry about this. They want to save their business and don't want to be wrapped up in something bad. But here is the thing, it seems to me that in this country where we ask the question "Is this legal?" way too often. This is just one case of it. We have natural rights in this country. The Bill of Rights limits what the government can do that could threaten those rights. Buying a machine to make weapons to defend yourself is a natural right. Note, that making a gun for yourself is different than buying one of the machines to make guns to sell to others. That *is* covered by law. Building guns for others makes you a gun manufacturer. The default position should be for a company to say there is no law that limits an individual exercising their right and until there is, we will ship it.
well now everyone knows he has a product. and i doubt UPS will refuse his money. so it is a win win for them, while at the same time painting fedex in a bad light (regardless of this being their "right")
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
Citation please.
I live in Washington state where last year I-594 passed, requiring universal background checks and even requires casually loaned a firearm to a friend or adult family member without going through background checks every time it changed hands a criminal act.
Prior to the election there really wasn't much of a debate... but not because of the gun rights folks, it was because of the massive amount of money being poured in by groups like Bloomberg's, out side simply couldn't compete. But then having the media also taking sides early on helps with that as well.
Even with the passage of I-594, one of the local stations now is living in terror of something that many have known about for a while, gun trusts: http://www.kirotv.com/news/new...
Fedex is a for-profit corporation. It can refuse any customer it wants. That's the libertarian way, right? Private individuals and companies should only conduct business with mutual consent? Well, good. The libertarian behind "Defense Distributed" is getting what he asked for.
I worked for a gun store 20 years ago. At the time FedEx wouldn't ship anything that was, or was part of, a firearm. No stocks. I did once ship a small pin and I just labeled it as a metal pin.
Yes, but the Amendment's delivery is delayed due to bad weather. FedEx apologizes for the inconvenience.
Bark less. Wag more.
or label it what it really is a cnc mill
As for your stupidity regarding the second amendment: the second amendment was adopted to ensure that members of the state militias had weapons should they be called up.
As for your stupidity regarding the second amendment: it exists because the founders had just gone through a war where they found it convenient that the people had guns, and lived in a time when guns were a way of life and necessary for self-defense against not only criminals but wild beasts. They had just overthrown a repressive government and wanted to keep that option available for the new one they'd just fought to create, should it become necessary.
The "militia" clause is an explanatory clause, not a complete statement of the entire reason why the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Had they wanted to say that they could have easily done so. And that clause says nothing about state militias. It wasn't intended to because it was the federal constitution, not a state constitution.
You're close. You don't have a legal right to receive their service, but they do have a legal obligation to provide the service, because they are a common carrier. In exchange for legal considerations that the government grants them, they agree to certain terms of the government's...like "serve everyone".
But yeah, they also have some severe restrictions on what they're not allowed to carry, and they err way on the side of caution. If you told them "this is a block of lead, and I plan to melt it for bullets", they may well refuse, and by some legal interpretations they might *have* to.
The USA has a gun problem - not enough people have them.
Unless the whole point is to create publicity by deliberately creating wedge issues. In other words, it doesn't matter what FedEx said, because now I have a great advertising platform - buy my stuff!.
Like Apple developers who deliberately code something that will not pass muster to cry foul and say "oh, we have an Android version buy that!".
The goal is not force companies to act in ways you want them to act so you can create attention for yourself. "Poor me, the big bad FedEx won't ship my stuff! Oh, btw, I have a new gunsmithing machine! You can buy it today!". That's how I read this advertisement.
That's what it really is - an ad. Creating a wedge gives you publicity that can be worth several million dollars and be far more effective.
Just more business for UPS
New York is suing UPS for 180 million dollars for not preventing their customers from using them to ship cigarettes and avoiding cities huge revenue stream of a tobacco tax. You think they would hesitate to do the same for machining equipment that has been marketed as able to "manufacture" a gun? http://nypost.com/2015/02/18/n...
Huh? Being Christian has pretty much nothing to do with it. If you are registered with the state to be the overseeing signatory on a marriage certificate and you refuse to do so for some non-governmental reason, and the state supports gay marriage, you're out of luck. You can definitely refuse to perform a ceremony for them (or anyone else), as wedding ceremonies are not a state function but a religious function. And if you make remarks indicating that you are refusing strictly because of their sexual orientation, you'll likely be in a lot of trouble. However, you can probably even refuse to officiate the signing of the certificate under religious grounds due to their sexual practices, if they've been having sex outside of marriage. You can easily refuse to do the ceremony, as gay marriage and *traditional* biblical marriage are similar, but not identical things (the OT Bible states one man and one woman, no matter how you translate it, even if significant portions of the OT population failed to meet the requirements on polygamy rules or cleanliness rules, among other things).
So no -- homosexuality / christianity don't factor in here at all.
What DOES factor in is that he's billing this item as something to make gun parts, and FedEx doesn't ship things intended primarily for the manufacture of weapons. If the advertizing said "CNC machine perfect for milling small parts such as metal straws, rifled barrels, triggers for mechanical devices and other small metal parts that need to withstand explosive force", FedEx probably wouldn't bat an eye shipping it. But that's not what he put on the shipping invoice.
Kind of the same as the situation often found with Christian priests/pastors and gay marriage. It all depends on how you advertize.
You might want to actually read the Federalists papers before you spew this nonsense. The writers are quite explicit in the reasoning and intent. The comment you made is one bandied about by those wanting to misrepresent the truth.
I am no fan of firearms and would take them out of your (not cold and dead) hands if I could. That said, isn't FedEx a common carrier? There are rules for such things.
Bruce Perens.
What else can be used in the manufacture of firearms?
* die grinders
* drills
* welders
* Crucibles
* plaster (good for making casting molds)
* springs
* saws
* CNC mills from other vendors
and yet, they have no problem shipping any of that, right?
The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
But yeah, they also have some severe restrictions on what they're not allowed to carry, and they err way on the side of caution. If you told them "this is a block of lead, and I plan to melt it for bullets", they may well refuse, and by some legal interpretations they might *have* to.
http://www.fedex.com/us/freigh...
Item 780, section B-6:
Carrier will transport small-arms ammunition when packed and labeled in compliance with local, state and federal law, and the Hazardous Materials section of this Service Guide. Ammunition is an explosive and must be shipped separately as hazardous materials. You agree not to ship loaded firearms or firearms with ammunition in the same package.
So I'm damn sure the implied use for the lead wouldn't keep it from being shipped. There may be other reasons, but nothing due to bullets.
However, you can't ship:
Money (and, apparently, anything like it)
Alcohol
Porn
postage stamps
letters, with or without stamps
valuable paper of any kind
fresh food
Articles of extraordinary value (extraordinary value is defined as items valued in excess of $50 per pound per package).
artwork
film, photos, negatives, etc
jewelry
tobacco products (unless shipped from and to a licensed dealer/distributor)
I found a few of those to be kinda surprising, but almost all of them tend to fall under some loose umbrella of "stuff you could use in place of money". The other excludes make sense in other ways... like "More than 100 pounds of NA3178, Smokeless Powder for small arms on any motor vehicle" and other "we don't want to blow up our drivers and the neighborhood around them" type stuff; or fresh food, where they probably just don't want rotting food attracting animals and bugs and generally being nasty.
They also won't ship firearms, unless it is from and to a dealer/distributor. This is where I think the gunsmithing machine hits a grey area. I'm 99.9% sure there wouldn't have been any problem at all if they just said it was a CNC mill, which it is. If it can pop out a complete firearm upon arrival and being plugged in, then it's just like sending the firearm (it can't do that, but they don't know that, and it says it'll make guns).
I ordered bulk .22 Cal. ammunition online. Federal Express shipped it to my rural address. It was in a box labeled "ORM-D" and had a label indicating "contains ammunition or small firearms". The left the box down by my road at my (closed) gate that they have instructions to open. OTOH, my stock broker sent me a "thank you" gift of some nice wine. That required "a signature of an adult over age 21 that is not under the influence of alcohol".
I got a laugh out of both events.
Perhaps not a right, but there is a legal requirement that FedEx ship the product.
The US Congress, using its powers under the Commerce Clause, has created laws covering Interstate Commerce. Among those laws are ones defining motor carriers (49 U.S. Code section 13501), and requiring them to provide transportation "on reasonable request" (section 14101) according to tariffs which include the "rules, and practices" (section 13710). There is nothing in FedEx Ground's tariff which allow it to exclude the product in question, so they are legally required to ship it in accord with the published rates.
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
FedEx is probably playing CYA.
The problem is that DD's box is designed to machine "80% receivers" to completion. The reason FedEx is playing CYA is because an 80% receiver is legally a "non-gun" in the eyes of the BATFE (until the policy gets changed) and anyone - and I mean ANYONE - can buy an 80% receiver because it's just a lump of metal. It's the machining of a couple of holes, pockets, and chambers that convert an 80% receiver into a firearm. Yes, the BATFE pretty much defines a firearm as the part of that can hold the fire control group/magazine/barrel. Which is why the BATFE looks at some of the laws of California (PRC - Majority of US Constitution/Bill of Rights/Federal Law considered invalid there because they're "special") and says "Huh?"
Anyway, since anyone can buy a lump of metal called an 80% receiver - including minors, etc - and also purchase (if they have the money) a "takes no skill to machine 80% receiver into a firearm" box, it's pretty obvious that a minor - or someone else who is disallowed purchase of a firearm - can buy both and fabricate a AR-15 type platform. So FedEx is likely looking at this and going "Yeeks! I don't want to get sued."
Now, machining an 80% receiver to 100% - which takes some skill - in your own home is perfectly legal, assuming you are allowed to possess firearms. Machining 300 or 80% receivers to 100% in your own home is perfectly legal - if you are allowed to possess firearms and do not intend to sell them - but if people [BATFE, local cops, etc] might look at you REAL funny if you do. You can even sell a firearm you manufacture - however, there's a bunch of laws pertaining to how many you can sell, and you can't build with the intent to sell, etc. It all gets into a "can't disprove that you manufactured with intent to sell" situation unless you have a handy piece of paper called an FFL - but if you are an FFL holder, you're not likely to be "manufacturing" with one of DD's "single purpose" CNC machines. FFL'd manufacturers usually have real tools, or connections with other manufacturing companies to get the parts that they want.
The gray area that likely has FedEx a little freaked is the "anybody can do this" combined with the "push a button" features - and the habit of people suing everybody and everything related. Remember, in the US there are the "Can't sue a manufacturer for producing something that does what it is supposed to do" laws which shields companies like Colt, Bushmaster, and other from wrongful death suits, etc. So, in order to prevent the inevitable "sue the delivery company for shipping a device to this guy who built this firearm and then sold it to this other guy who used it to kill a dozen people" lawsuit brought by ambulance-chasers.
I find the "we're not going to ship" response from FedEx entirely understandable, especially considering the "sue everyone" behavior endemic to the US legal system. Remember, under the US legal system, if you can sue your competitor - or person with an opposing viewpoint often enough - you can legally bankrupt them to the point where they are no longer in business - or if they are a person, homeless and disenfranchised. This is not to say I approve of FedEx's decision/policy. But my approval or disapproval of FedEx doesn't matter, since I am just someone posting as Anonymous Coward.
Is the mill in question over $50/lb?
I wonder if Grizzly Industrial runs into trouble with this; they explicitly advertise how you can use their machine tools to make guns, and in fact some SKUs are labelled as "gunsmithing lathes".
"Because Science" is one step from "Because old book". Try "Because of my experiment testing my falsifiable assertion".
It's like telling police officers you smoke weed.
No... but it is like labeling the pipes your store sells as "hash pipes". Some stores (possibly only in certain states, especially now that pot is legalized in some states) will happily sell you bongs and small glass pipes and bubblers and one hitters etc etc etc so long as you do not refer to them by any of their cannabis-associated names. Some go a step further, and will ask you to leave the store if you do refer to them by those names, pretending that "they are not in the business of selling paraphernalia". This is a WHOLE LOT like that (though I think the store may have got in trouble with the law _before_ instituting that policy).
Just how safe are rights such as gay marriage when ones explicitly protected by the US Constitution are ignored?
Because the entire point of the 2nd Amendment was to make sure the government didn't outgun the population.
For obvious fucking reasons.
Note the word "explicitly" in his comment.
my response:
Which "explicitly protected" rights have been ignored here? Please cite the exact phrase in the Constitution/Bill of Rights that mandates Fed-Ex ship his packages.
Thank you for pointing out that i am correct.
As for the Motor Carrier Act of 1935, shipping something via Fed-Ex may, or may not, be covered under that (i would make the base assumption that a package sent strictly "fed-ex ground" probably is, but that gets into a lot of details that not only am i not privy too, but i imagine could change at any given time in the shipment of any given package); it may well be covered under the umbrella of domestic air carriage. Interestingly enough, those rules don't apply to domestic air carriage because of deregulation in the past 30-40 years (i personally find that to be humorously ironic in this specific situation).
Fascism: An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization. See also: NAZI's
It's like telling police officers you smoke weed.
in Colorado. It that still a problem if it's legal?
Is the mill in question over $50/lb?
Hehhehheh... I was wondering too, and how many other things qualify for that... I'm guessing quite a few. Of the top of my head:
* a pound of blue ray movies (or dvds, or cds, or vinyl)
* any tablet (kindle fire, ipad, galaxy pad, etc)
* any phone or ipod or wearable mp3 player
* headphones
* most laptops
* most musical instruments
* makeup/face creams/etc
* all bra's and panties, and most other articles of clothing
* bicycles that cost about $1000 or more (which is most decent ones)
Surprisingly, more expensive stuff tends to be ok. For example, Samsung 55" 4k UHD LED TV = $1099 and weighs about 44lb; At 44lb, it'd have to cost over $2200 to hit $50/lb. Or their curved 65" 4k UHD, which is $2197... but it's 70lb! I tried a couple other categories, and that trend seems to hold somewhat well (ex. really good speakers end up weighing a lot more; cheap ones are too cheap to qualify; mid-range ones *may* qualify).
FedEx should be denying most shipments!
When libertarians expound that businesses should be able to deny service to any one for any reason, they also say "but then they can expect to be held up o public ridicule for it." So a baker has a right to refuse to sell a wedding cake to a gay couple, but can expect protests on his doorstep.
Same thing here: FedEx can refuse to do their services for any reason they care to spout (or to keep secret if they wish) as is their right (or at least it ought to be).
Two things though. One is the concomitant public exposure for their decision. If they HAD refused because of gayness or blackness or something else, it would be a media circus. But since they refused on some wishy washy left-leaning reasoning, the normal chorus of "corporations are evil" will be silented for a bit.
The second thing is that their stated reasons are apparently hogwash. Claiming a law requires them to do X when there is no such law is just weak. And they should rightly be ridiculed for that.
It sounds like someone is trying to force a company to transport a good to a customer. That sounds counter to the free market as I understand it. Under a free market isn't a company free to turn down any business they don't want to be involved with? If FedEx doesn't want to handle and deliver this product, why are people trying to force them to?
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
... to do the exact same thing.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
Whatever weasel words they use to justify their actions, the machine is primarily intended to create weapons to kill and maim people.
I've had to ship high-end HD broadcast cameras through FedEx before, that easily would be on your list as well. These cameras were between $10,000 and $25,000 and were less than 50lbs each. While they said the shipping insurance only covers up to a certain amount, they didn't bat an eye about the actual shipment of those items.
"...Shall not be infringed." is not debatable when it comes to gun rights, it says so right there in the Constitution. Starting a debate is pointless. Debates are how we got where we are now, clearly 'infringed' at this point.
You are, of course, correct not in any general sense. But feel free to enjoy your tiny semantic, pedantic victory. There are different forms of rights. There are natural ones, such as the right to self-defense embodied in the 2nd Amendment, and there are legally created ones, such as the right to ship products via motor carrier or the rights created by a contract.
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
In a related story, rest easy with that 45 under your pillow because you've won the war
But I have two pillows -- when is FedEx going to deliver my other 45?
and "focus on real problems"? What?? -- do you have ANY idea how uncomfortable it is to sleep on uneven pillows?
-----
Gun control is being able to hit your target.
If the universe is someone's simulation -- does that mean the stars are just stuck pixels?
I have seen really lousy fathers make loud declarations about how much they love their kids. They are simply trying to gather a pinch of status from others in their herd. Fed Ex puffs up its chest and does something idiotic that they know the public will take as being socially responsible and concerned. It is a twisted attempt at free advertising. Obviously milling machines are sold to hobbyists every day and most will never be used to make a gun. So when did this all start? Back in the 1970s Fed Ex made a fortune with rapid delivery of phone sales checks and deliveries to the victims of telemarketers or phones salesmen. Usually they demanded the buyer send payment before delivery by overnight Fed Ex. The crooks did not use the US Mail due to policing abilities of the Post Office. Then the so called product was shipped. The companies lawyers knew that if an empty box was shipped the law had a better shot at prosecution. So instead of an empty box the buyer might find a piece of scrap wood or a rock in the package. So Fed Ex pulled in a lot of income in the initial overnight delivery of the checks and then collected another fee delivering the worthless package. Since the same addresses were used over and over again as the point of sale Fed Ex had to know they were working for con men and the federal law enforcement folks jumped in and considered shippers to be in conspiracy with the crooks. Eventually this has evolved to a point at which a company can be in trouble for actually shipping a good and useful product such as a small milling machine.
Is it a local/state officer or a federal agent?
But I have two pillows -- when is FedEx going to deliver my other 45?
and "focus on real problems"? What?? -- do you have ANY idea how uncomfortable it is to sleep on uneven pillows?
Not sure whats going on here....do you happen to have two heads?
If you are registered with the state to be the overseeing signatory on a marriage certificate
And when did bakers gain that authority? The previous post said decorating a wedding cake.
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It's like telling police officers you smoke weed.
I'm in Seattle. So long as you didn't blow the smoke in their face, the police would just shrug. If they were the police patrolling Hempfest, they'd hand you a bag of chips.
The Second Amendment is less clear than you say. How many explanatory clauses are there in the Constitution? It strongly suggests that the reason for the right to bear arms is the militia. (It also suggests to me that we all should have the right to bear military arms, such as real assault rifles capable of automatic or multishot fire, since a deer rifle hasn't been the equivalent of a military rifle for a long time now. Not to mention that the "unorganized militia of the US" is rather sweeping in inclusion.)
However, extending it to the right to have gun-making equipment gets rather iffy.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
The Federalist papers were written by three people on their own initiative, using a pseudonym, to try to get the Constitution passed. In other words, propaganda rather than legal documents (just like the Declaration of Independence). On any given point, they may or may not represent original intent.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
I think they require holes in the carton if shipping live welders.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
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Are you suggesting those who wrote the federalists papers were not involved with the writing of the Bill of rights or the Constitution, and that they were therefor incapable of stating what their intent was in framing them as such?