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Recent Paper Shows Fracking Chemicals In Drinking Water, Industry Attacks It

eldavojohn writes: A recent paper published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences turned up 2-Butoxyethanol from samples collected from three households in Pennsylvania. The paper's level headed conclusion is that more conservative well construction techniques should be used to avoid this in the future and that flowback should be better controlled. Rob Jackson, another scientist who reviewed the paper, stressed that the findings were an exception to normal operations. Despite that, the results angered the PR gods of the Marcellus Shale Gas industry and awoke beltway insider mouthpieces to attack the research — after all, what are they paying them for?

328 comments

  1. Lives be damned by ArcadeMan · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Profits above all else.

    Hu-mans have turned into Ferengi.

    1. Re:Lives be damned by msauve · · Score: 1

      But we make our wo-men wear clothing.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    2. Re:Lives be damned by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

      I think that is "Hu-mons"

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    3. Re:Lives be damned by Dr_Barnowl · · Score: 4, Funny

      Clearly we're trying as hard as possible to get them nude, given the percentage of coverage.

      On the other hand, no clothing at all would be bad for the profits of the fe-male clothing industry. What were those Ferengi thinking? There's a huge market there!

    4. Re:Lives be damned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can someone enlighten me as to why funky chemicals are needed to break rocks?

    5. Re:Lives be damned by Dunbal · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You would have thought the Ferengi would have cottoned on to the fact that clothing their women would open a whole new avenue of profit by selling them rags and trinkets at thousands of times the cost just because they had a fancy label or some monogrammed initials.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    6. Re:Lives be damned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They did.

      Didn't you listen to Moogie's persuasion of Zek?

    7. Re:Lives be damned by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, no clothing at all would be bad for the profits of the fe-male clothing industry. What were those Ferengi thinking? There's a huge market there!

      I think that there was an episode where Quark's mom pointed that out to the Nagus.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    8. Re:Lives be damned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Congrats, you're a moron.

    9. Re:Lives be damned by doug141 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Have you priced the safe disposal of hazardous waste recently? Much cheaper to flush it down a fraking well. Free, in fact, thanks to the laws.

    10. Re:Lives be damned by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 1

      Profits above all else.

      From the Better Off Ted episode Racial Sensitivity :

      Veronica: "Money before people," that's the company motto. Engraved on the lobby floor. It just looks more heroic in Latin.

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    11. Re:Lives be damned by gatkinso · · Score: 1

      Ferengi are simply fictional characters reflecting human nature.

      --
      I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
    12. Re: Lives be damned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe because you can't break rocks with harsh words?
      It's like how you might clean a greasy chain without being able to scrub it (if it were 1 mile deep under ground). You might use some solvent and some abrasive chemicals to break up the grease, right?

    13. Re:Lives be damned by drinkypoo · · Score: 0

      They couldn't find that out because their women weren't allowed to wear clothes.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    14. Re:Lives be damned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Close. The Nagus and Quark's mom were dating, and the Nagus wanted to put through reforms for fe-males, but some other bureaucrat was trying to get the Nagus tossed out on senility or something. So they invited the bureaucrat to DS9 so that Quark's mom could talk to him, but something happened, and Quark himself had to go through a temporary sex change and do the speaking instead. And yes, pointing out the potential profit from a whole other half of the population suddenly wanting to go shopping was one of the things Quark brought up.

      At least that's how I remember it. The episode was Profit and Lace if you want a more detailed (and probably more correct) explanation.

    15. Re:Lives be damned by mellon · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Actually I would blame the regulator, and the regulations, and the congresscritters who voted for there not to be any. By the time the product reaches the final point of sale, we are powerless to discriminate between ethically-extracted and unethically-extracted fuels. The only way to get companies to behave ethically is to require that they behave ethically. This isn't because the people who run them are unethical bastards (maybe they are, maybe they aren't). It's because it's a commodity, and no producer can afford to do anything that costs more than what any other producer is doing, no matter how good their intentions.

      To move the higher-priced ethically pure stuff to the customer the ethical producer would have to control the entire distribution chain, all the way to the customer. That's not as practical as it might sound. The major market for natural gas is in gas-fired generation, and those buyers then wholesale the electricity to the grid, and then we purchase it from our power company. So we are two or three steps removed from where we could vote with our wallet. We have no power to affect this market.

      We customers of the grid are actually, a lot of us, paying a premium for clean power, but that power isn't coming from burning natural gas, because natural gas is not a clean source of power. So while we can reduce the total demand for natural gas, and we have, we aren't affecting the functioning of the natural gas market.

      Because it's a commodity market, because producers really don't have any choice, the only way to make it possible for them to behave ethically is through regulation. Regulation prevents the race to the bottom: prevents the producers who would prefer to behave ethically from being forced to behave unethically in order to keep their prices at the same level as the producers who don't mind behaving unethically. This idea of just letting the market take care of it, and blaming the customer when they don't make choices they can't make, is futile and absurd.

    16. Re:Lives be damned by LordLimecat · · Score: 1, Funny

      This chemical is generally considered safe. Im not sure if you're posting in the correct topic, though its possible you fell for the media hysterics baiting.

    17. Re:Lives be damned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Profits above all else.

      Hu-mans have turned into Ferengi.

      Civilization as been that way for as long as there has been civilization.

    18. Re:Lives be damned by MightyMartian · · Score: 2

      Well great. I wager I can produce really cheap toys by manufacturing out of substandard materials. Sure, the materials might be toxic, might even be highly flammable, but hey, all that fucking counts is profits! We should just let companies fuck everything and everyone up because MONEY!!!! We should let them lie and distort and attack anyone who questions because MONEY!!!! Fuck every single human being on earth, because MONEY!!!!

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    19. Re:Lives be damned by denis-The-menace · · Score: 1

      I said this 5+ years ago.

      I got modded down into oblivion.

      --
      Obama's legacy: (N)othing (S)ecure (A)nywhere and (T)error (S)imulation (A)dministration
    20. Re:Lives be damned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I suspect the Ferengi are deeply wedded to certain core expectations and beliefs. Not clothing women, not testing nuclear weapons in their own atmosphere, not poisoning customers, and etc.

      In short, enshrined beliefs prevented short-term overexploitation/population damage. Sufficient market hashing prevented long term customer exploitation and keeping the women at home and naked probably was the only way to handle the labor over abundance resulting from a post-energy replicator based economy.

    21. Re: Lives be damned by ArcadeMan · · Score: 2

      Maybe because you can't break rocks with harsh words?

      Tell that to this guy.

    22. Re:Lives be damned by ArcadeMan · · Score: 1

      Either you got bad moderators that day or I got good moderators today, or maybe the opinion of the majority is changing.

    23. Re:Lives be damned by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Can someone enlighten me as to why funky chemicals are needed to break rocks?

      They are not needed to break the rocks, but to dissolve the hydrocarbons. Hydrocarbons are not normally soluble in water, so you need detergents or other chemicals to form an emulsion that can be pumped to the surface. After the hydrocarbons are separated, the "funky chemicals" are mostly recycled and pumped back down the hole. But they are temporarily stored in holding ponds, which can leak if not properly sealed. Some of the chemicals also leak because of bad seals on the pumps and pipe joints. It is unlikely that there is leakage directly from the shale, so the groundwater contamination is not an inherent problem with fracking, but rather with sloppy practices and corner cutting.

    24. Re:Lives be damned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So you don't blame the corporations that pay them?

      Captcha: shanties

    25. Re:Lives be damned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I said it a hundred years ago.

    26. Re:Lives be damned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are dreaming. Think a bit who put those congresscritters where they are, follow the money. In the end is the same as if big money regulates everything, democracy is a fad.

    27. Re:Lives be damned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They started to, grudgingly, near the end of DS9.

    28. Re:Lives be damned by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

      But we make our wo-men wear clothing.

      I don't. They insist on doing it anyway.

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    29. Re:Lives be damned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      congresswhore

      FTFY

    30. Re:Lives be damned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      >> This idea of just letting the market take care of it, and blaming the customer when they don't make choices they can't make, is futile and absurd.

      I know it's off topic, but that is the single best one-line debunking of the current healthcare system in the United States, I've ever read.
      It is exactly like that.

    31. Re:Lives be damned by fortfive · · Score: 1

      ...but rather with sloppy practices and corner cutting.

      True for so many things, from automobile failures to nuclear power plants. If everyone at Fukushima had been doing their job, it would have been merely unfortunate, rather than disastrous.

      I don't know if sloppy practice explains the earthquakes in Oklahoma, though.

    32. Re:Lives be damned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except that Ferenginar was a horribly wet, mucky place and to keep women out of clothes basically kept them in servitude to men*--a similar idea to the treatment of women in burkas but to the other extreme.

      * A lack of naturism or a sense of modesty might have a small part to do with it, but given one could enter another's home and see their women naked... In any case, even without that it was a crime to do business with females but as you state it would be in their nature to do under the counter marketing of clothes regardless. So, odds are good that was what happened. It's just that officially it was the open secret that women wore the pants at home. Much like how people who reminisce about the 50s as children were basically oblivious to all that was actually going on and have nostalgia about a false painting of reality.

    33. Re:Lives be damned by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I don't know if sloppy practice explains the earthquakes in Oklahoma, though.

      The groundwater contamination is a serious issue, that needs to be resolved, probably through more frequent inspections and higher fines. The earthquakes are a trivial problem. They are small, and transitory. Once the frackers move on, the earthquakes will stop. Fracking has generated over a million jobs, adds hundreds of billions of domestic production to the US economy every year, and, by replacing coal with gas, has done more to reduce CO2 emissions than all other efforts combined. If the price of that is a few rattled windows in rural Oklahoma, then so be it.

    34. Re:Lives be damned by slew · · Score: 2

      I don't know if sloppy practice explains the earthquakes in Oklahoma, though.

      Apparently the common practice of injecting waste water (which predominantly originated from waste water used to help reactivate conventional oil wells, and only sloppy hydro-fracking waste water processing to a lesser extent because it is more recent) deep underground into other depleted oil wells which were targeted for storage can explain the uptick in earthquakes in Oklahoma and around the Midwest.

      The theory goes that when this injection practice started years ago the storage wells were empty, but as these storage wells filled up, more pressure had to be used to inject the water and this triggered the more recent seismic activity. Apparently this theory was corroborated by researchers correlating existing known faults and the locations of storage wells.

      Sadly, this "sloppy" practice of injecting waste water into depleted wells continues unabated...

    35. Re:Lives be damned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually I would blame the regulator, and the regulations, and the congresscritters who voted for there not to be any. By the time the product reaches the final point of sale, we are powerless to discriminate between ethically-extracted and unethically-extracted fuels....

      yes exactly. same thing for GMOs - without appropriate specific labeling we consumers are powerless to make informed purchases. For example, monarch butterflies are endangered - 90% population loss in recent years - because of Roundup and Monsanto's Roundup-ready GMO crops. Roundup (and the GMO monoculture) kills the milkweed the butterflies and caterpillars eat. without labeling how I can avoid purchasing products made from these crops?

      and I don't mean "California Prop-65" style general warning labels. those are worse than useless because they are nonspecific and just like UAC serve to numb people. zomg like cancer stuff is totally everywhere! watch out for dihydrogen monoxide.

    36. Re:Lives be damned by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      That's right! If it's good for business, then full speed ahead. Damn the torpedoes!

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    37. Re:Lives be damned by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      ctually I would blame the regulator, and the regulations, and the congresscritters who voted for there not to be any.

      You are blaming everybody but the people who constantly reelect those congresscritters because they *bring home the bacon*. This democracy thing is high maintenance. You gotta watch 'em like a hawk between the election cycles, day in and day out. It's the customer that has to act ethically, through their purchases and their votes.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    38. Re:Lives be damned by JWW · · Score: 1

      You likely got modded down because while it is popular to espouse that philosophy, the political philosophy "most" concern for the lives of the people also happens to be the one that piled up the most dead bodies last century.

    39. Re:Lives be damned by smoot123 · · Score: 1

      TFA points out that the levels detected are well within safety limits. Apparently no lives are actually at risk. Also these chemicals are used for other things so it's likely but not entirely certain they came from a well.

      If it were my well and my house, I'd shrug and worry about more significant risks like the hockey game I played Sunday night.

    40. Re:Lives be damned by davester666 · · Score: 1

      We're already screwing them over by charging them more for clothing with less material and are flimsier than men's clothing. Course, they are bedazzled...

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    41. Re:Lives be damned by jythie · · Score: 0

      Eris forbid consumers take any blame or responsibility for things. Sure we complain if prices go up or our 401k does not grow as quickly, but hey, it is all the corporations faults!

    42. Re:Lives be damned by praxis · · Score: 1

      A market solution to healthcare does not work. For a market to function effectively, the consumer must be able to make rational choices. When it comes to healthcare though, patients do not have the expertise required to make rational choices. They turn to experts to advise them, but those experts, doctors, are compensated by the purveyors of medicines, tests and treatments for recommending those medicines, tests and treatments.

    43. Re:Lives be damned by mellon · · Score: 1

      We put those congresscritters there. The fact that we were bought by bread and circuses does not mean that the people who gave us the bread and circuses are at fault. This is why I bother getting into these arguments. The only people who have any power to change this are we, the citizens. Sure, it sucks that [name your favorite despotic billionaire] is trying to buy the election, but what they are actually buying are are votes. We need to learn how to stop letting them buy our votes, or nothing will change.

    44. Re:Lives be damned by mellon · · Score: 1

      Testify.

    45. Re:Lives be damned by Crashmarik · · Score: 0

      The article also doesn't state that it's conclusive only most likely.
      Whipping the "We hate the people that give us food and energy" crowd into a frenzy, is like shooting fish in a barrel.

    46. Re:Lives be damned by HornWumpus · · Score: 2

      Most of the stuff being re-injected into wells is water that came up with the oil and was separated. It's not a fracking only thing and has been going on for decades not years. Gets severe when a field is near exhausted.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    47. Re:Lives be damned by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Reflecting the political agenda of the writers of DS9.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    48. Re:Lives be damned by dpidcoe · · Score: 1

      As opposed to "if it's good for stopping global warming, then full speed ahead!"? Because it would be a shame to miss the opportunity to blast those claims with your sarcasm cannon as well.

    49. Re:Lives be damned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Female Ferengi also weren't allowed to have money.

      There's a whole DS9 story arc about Quarks mom committing a mortal sin by being a woman making money.

    50. Re:Lives be damned by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      That episode was one of several that hurt my brain. You'd have some fantastic writing and character development, and then you'd get an episode like Profit and Lace thrown in there. Or the Vanessa Williams guest-starring on Risa episode. The series could be fantastic, but it was also so amazingly uneven.

    51. Re:Lives be damned by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      Fuck off you pinko commie prick. It's more likely that the paper has questionable methods and/or conclusions.

      Really? That's more likely?

    52. Re:Lives be damned by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      Not saying fracking doesn't make things worse, but there have been earthquakes in the Midwest for ages.

      One of the most powerful earthquakes ever recorded in U.S. History happened on the Madrid fault in Missouri.

    53. Re:Lives be damned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While I agree with applying a little perspective it is worth noting if it can cause minor quakes in OK then it can always cause major quakes elsewhere. A single magnitude 7 or more earthquake will wipe away all those gains in our economy. The problem is that the energy industry has proven again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again that they don't give a crap about doing things safely or cleanly. Makes it hard to want to put any faith in them while also being a necessity to maintain our quite comfortable lifestyles.

    54. Re:Lives be damned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They were thinking damn these women are spending all my profits on clothes, I know how to fit that.

    55. Re:Lives be damned by dywolf · · Score: 1

      1) They aren't "giving" anyone anything. They sell it for profit.
      2) No one hates them. That is a far different thing statement than not liking business practices that could be considered abusive or undesirable. Wanting companies that have the potential to contaminate the water supply to not contaminate the water supply is not "hating" the company.

      You make it sound like they deserve our unequivocal support and deference to any decisions they make.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    56. Re:Lives be damned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You do realize they don't dissolve the hydrocarbons to get them to the surface in fracking?

      Fracking = fracturing the rock

    57. Re:Lives be damned by Crashmarik · · Score: 0

      2) No one hates them.

      LOL complete B.S.

    58. Re:Lives be damned by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      PPT

      Yes, more likely.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    59. Re:Lives be damned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only way anyone will behave is with a gun pointed at their head. We'll have the government regulate it. Then everything will be okay. Brilliant!

    60. Re:Lives be damned by snowsnoot · · Score: 1

      Stopping global warming.. that's a bit of a stretch don't you think..

    61. Re:Lives be damned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Critters" don't mandate a threat to your health. Criminals do.

    62. Re:Lives be damned by beastofburdon · · Score: 1

      I believe it has a much more broad relevance than commodities and health care.

      Internet providers
      GMO's
      Politicians
      The poor born into the ghetto

      The list could fill a large book.

  2. Yes but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Will the water companies charge extra?

    1. Re:Yes but by Adriax · · Score: 4, Funny

      $0.003/gallon surcharge for value added chemicals to ensure no stray shale clogs their piping.

      --
      I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!
  3. Industry attacks it by rossdee · · Score: 1, Funny

    Industry attacks what? Drinking water?

    Its up to the companies that market the water to filter it properly

    1. Re:Industry attacks it by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Are there any? negative externalities that people have an obligation not to impose on others; or is it always the other guy's job to suck it up and add whatever systems are necessary to compensate for them?

    2. Re:Industry attacks it by ArcadeMan · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Water is a basic necessity of life. It's not a product.

      In other news, it's up to the fracking companies to protect themselves against nukes from orbit.

    3. Re:Industry attacks it by wile_e_wonka · · Score: 5, Informative

      Who markets the water for the drinking well at a person's home?

      You're thinking of the local water company with it's water filtering plants and pipes that lead directly to your home. That is not where fracking is happening. Fracking is done out where there isn't public water and sewer. People have drinking wells for their homes.

      This article is saying that fracking chemicals are getting into the same water that is feeding the wells to people's homes. It is the fracking companies' responsibilities to keep their chemicals out of our drinking water wells.

    4. Re:Industry attacks it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The companies aren't marketing water, just contaminating it. The water came from private wells nearby, according to the article.

    5. Re:Industry attacks it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, the industry is actually attacking drinking water.

      And reports that they are attacking drinking water.

    6. Re:Industry attacks it by OzPeter · · Score: 1

      This article is saying that fracking chemicals are getting into the same water that is feeding the wells to people's homes.

      If it is getting into peoples drinking water supplies, then I would suspect that it is also potentially getting into the water supplies of livestock, as well as other animals.

      --
      I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
    7. Re:Industry attacks it by jythie · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well, that is the philosophical divide in the US. Are people responsible for the effects their actions have on others, or are they responsible for only the effect their actions have on themselves? That is the bridge people have trouble crossing when talking about responsibility between conservatives/libertarians and liberals. One believes your fate is in your own hands, you are singularly responsible for yourself, while the other believes that we bear responsibility for our actions on others. Oddly enough one tends to benefit the strong and the majority group, while the other takes from it.

    8. Re:Industry attacks it by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      "You're drinking it wrong!"

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    9. Re:Industry attacks it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're missing the big picture here, these are private wells that are leaching methane and other chemicals. In reality, the users of those wells should be arrested for stealing the proprietary chemicals and methane used and extracted by their operation!

    10. Re:Industry attacks it by afidel · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You're thinking of the local water company with it's water filtering plants and pipes that lead directly to your home. That is not where fracking is happening. Fracking is done out where there isn't public water and sewer.

      Hate to break it to you, but yes, fracking very much IS happening right in the middle of where there are water and sewer service. Both Cleveland and Pittsburgh, the 31st and 23rd largest MSA's in the country are right in the middle of the shale boom and both states have their department of natural resource (exploitation) overruling local control so there's plenty of drilling happening in the middle of communities (my town of 30k took the DNR to the state supreme court to try to block projects after we had several leaking wells contaminate drinking water and local streams)

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    11. Re:Industry attacks it by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      Are there any? negative externalities that people have an obligation not to impose on others

      There are a couple of ways to answer that:

      • One answer could be "no, by definition." If the person has an obligation not to impose it on others, then it's internalized and no longer counts as an externality.
      • Another answer could be "yes, namely, the set of externalities that are regulated by government." For example, car owners are prohibited from imposing excessive pollution on others via emissions laws.

      Of course, these are really the same answer (because in answer #1, it would be the government who created the obligation); it just depends on perspective.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    12. Re:Industry attacks it by jjeffries · · Score: 1

      Indeed, these frack-jobs are ~1500' away from Morgantown, WV's water system intake: http://wvpublic.org/post/more-...

    13. Re:Industry attacks it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The two aren't mutually exclusive you know. In fact, the side you lambaste as liberals, and how VERY telling that you think it's a swear word, is actually MORE plugged in to the reality of who and what we are as a species than the supposedly conservative "every man exists in vacuum" view.

      We are social animals. We exist in groups. The erstwhile libertarian has his head so far up his ass he can see that burger he ate in 1983. And it's almost ALWAYS a he; we women, somehow, are mostly immune to this memetic plague. To ignore the realities of what we are our, evolutionary and social heritage, is to invite disaster, and behold, disaster has come; I give you 35 goddamn years of voodoonomics as exhibit A.

      The key is to make it so that the desires of the individual do not compromise the group's integrity, and that the actions of the group do not stifle individual freedom.

    14. Re:Industry attacks it by DarkOx · · Score: 1

      The problem is the so call conservatives and their regulations. A libertarian would say you can put whatever you want in the ground on your property but if it leaks onto mine, I'll see you court.

      A properly run court would arrange fair compensation for the loss of use. Stop passing laws that protect industrial polluters for liability and we would stop having these problems, stop having government recognize fictions legal entities so the real ownership escapes liability. The incentive to conceal problems with technology like injection wells would disappear because we all know it comes to light eventually if the problems are real you will be sued with the possibility of loosing far more than you ever made from the activity.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    15. Re:Industry attacks it by Immerman · · Score: 2

      If that were truly the case, then why would the "no responsibility for our actions on others" group support a police force and other government-backed methods of coercion to impose such responsibility on thieves, violent assailants, etc? After all, the victims are the ones who failed to take sufficient personal responsibility to protect themselves.

      Let's be honest here - the difference is not a matter of general principle, but of degree.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    16. Re:Industry attacks it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're thinking of the local water company with it's water filtering plants and pipes that lead directly to your home. That is not where fracking is happening. Fracking is done out where there isn't public water and sewer.

      Hate to break it to you, but yes, fracking very much IS happening right in the middle of where there are water and sewer service. Both Cleveland and Pittsburgh, the 31st and 23rd largest MSA's in the country are right in the middle of the shale boom and both states have their department of natural resource (exploitation) overruling local control so there's plenty of drilling happening in the middle of communities (my town of 30k took the DNR to the state supreme court to try to block projects after we had several leaking wells contaminate drinking water and local streams)

      Really? You HATE to break it to us? I'm just askin, since it had more of a "relish" than "hate" tone to it. You see, where you went on a pompous tirade of uncited 'facts' that may or may not be true?

      Just sayin, seems like you were going for more of a 'pompous douche' vibe, which, cool for you, but, even if you are right, it makes you look like, well, a pompous douche.

      That, you know, and the fact that the parent was basically saying "it's people getting screwed, not other companies", which, seemed to be your point, except for, you know, the pompous douche thing. Your call.

    17. Re:Industry attacks it by fustakrakich · · Score: 2

      It's not a product.

      The bottling industry disagrees. And contaminated tap water is good for business.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    18. Re:Industry attacks it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The two aren't mutually exclusive you know. In fact, the side you lambaste as liberals, and how VERY telling that you think it's a swear word, is actually MORE plugged in to the reality of who and what we are as a species than the supposedly conservative "every man exists in vacuum" view.

      The fucking liberal world view in a nutshell. Haven't done shit, haven't achieved much of anything, knows more about everything than everyone else.

      Don't believe they are smarter than you ? Just ask em. they will go on for hours.

    19. Re:Industry attacks it by smoot123 · · Score: 1

      It is the fracking companies' responsibilities to keep their chemicals out of our drinking water wells.

      That's an interesting point. Ronald Coase won a Nobel prize for the Coase Theorem which says that's not always the economically sensible way to think about it. Ethically and morally, most people assume whoever got there first should win. If I dug the well first, I have a right to clean water. If the frackers got there first, I have to deal with whatever water they left behind. The Coase theorem says it really doesn't matter who got there first, as long as we can strike a bargain, we'll arrive at the optimal (greatest good, lowest cost) solution. That might be supplying filters to wells, paying well owners off, changing drilling techniques, buying the mineral rights and putting them in a land trust, or something you and I can't envision.

    20. Re: Industry attacks it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Liberals MADE this country. They made the constitution, they won WW2 after the conservative Great Depression, and they helped create the greatest economy and standard of living, which conservatives have spent the last 30 years screwing up.

      The founders of this nation were not conservatives. The conservatives were the ones supporting King George. They're the ones who also opposed every single useful change that's ever been proposed, especially if it benefits regular people.

      In short, go to your little fantasyland revisionist hell and stay there.

    21. Re:Industry attacks it by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      Water is a basic necessity of life. It's not a product.

      Its also a chemical.

      In fact, its a fracking chemical.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    22. Re:Industry attacks it by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      Boy, you read waaaay into the parent's post and then come out swinging.

      In fact, the side you lambaste as liberals, and how VERY telling that you think it's a swear word

      Where did the grandparent use liberal as a swear word? Where did he even imply it? The closest might be the "Oddly enough one tends to benefit the strong and the majority group, while the other takes from it" line, but even that is hardly an attack.

    23. Re: Industry attacks it by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      The founders of this nation were not conservatives. The conservatives were the ones supporting King George

      That's a bit of revisionist history right there.

    24. Re:Industry attacks it by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      For this to work, we'd need a much different court system.

      Suppose a company pollutes, and I want to sue them.

      First, what is "fair compensation"? How do you tell if the damage to me is $100 or $200? Is there a list of things I'm just expected to put up with, or a price list? What's a generally degraded quality of life worth?

      Second, in order to do this, I need to spend a lot of money up front on court fees and lawyers. I may need to take a lot of my time. If I don't spend the money, I don't get any compensation and the company gets to do as it pleases. If I do spend the money and time, there's no guarantee I get any compensation. If we do "losers pay", I risk a whole lot of money if I do file suit, while the company could well wind up paying tens of thousands for damages of a few thousand. If we don't, how do I get compensated?

      Similarly, finding out exactly what's happening can be expensive, and somebody's going to have to pay for it. My lilacs are dying. What's killing them? An expert might find that it's primarily due to some chemical or other, and that expert will charge. Now, is somebody going to tell me which chemicals come from which company without me spending serious money? Bear in mind that lots of companies consider their chemicals to be trade secrets, and this came up several years around here. During a fire at a factory, some firefighters were injured by chemicals they hadn't realized were there, and businesses defended their decision to keep dangerous chemicals secret.

      Third, we have to provide linkage between damages and pollutants and polluters at a certain level of proof, and we have to determine what level to use. This is particularly difficult when the causes and sources are mixed.

      For this to actually work, we need truly massive government subsidies to courts and investigative bodies, which I've never heard any libertarian recommend. Without these, a company is at liberty to pollute my land without effective deterrent or recourse, as long as they don't do a tremendous amount of damage to me personally.

      It's FAR more effective and efficient to have pollution regulations that are enforced by an arm of the government.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    25. Re: Industry attacks it by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Yesterdays liberals are today's conservatives.

      He is playing word games and deserves a kick square in the nuts.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    26. Re:Industry attacks it by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      The trouble is that a court is, effectively, a species of transaction cost in this situation(ie. if the transaction is '$X for potentially degrading use of my water supply'; but I have to sue you to obtain $X, that transaction is [i]painfully[/i] inefficient compared to just about any commercial payment processor in existence; and that's if I can afford to sue you at all.)

      Plus, since pollution can be relatively tricky to detect and identify the source of, and can often be shunted off to shell entities with almost zero resources against which to make claims, any hope of legal redress is further dimmed. Never mind the fact that things like 'dying slowly of some nasty cancer' don't have an amount of money that is really compensatory.

    27. Re: Industry attacks it by cwsumner · · Score: 1

      Liberals MADE this country. They made the constitution, they won WW2 after the conservative Great Depression, and they helped create the greatest economy and standard of living, which conservatives have spent the last 30 years screwing up.

      The founders of this nation were not conservatives. The conservatives were the ones supporting King George. ...

      That is true, if you go by the original meaning of "Liberal" at the time.

      The mistake is in thinking that "Liberal" still means the same thing now.

      Back in the late 60's, when the Russians and North Vietnamese had agents here trying to sway public opinion against the war, many people were influenced by them and the methods that were taught. When they realised that such methods, where the "end justified the means", could get them power and money, then they adopted those methods of controlling the public. I was there and watched it.

      I used to consider myself a liberal, but I could not go along with that. So now I am sort of stuck in the middle...

      An old saying:
      "Anyone who is a republican before the age of 30 has no heart. But, anyone who is democrat after the age of 30 has no brain!"
      (Probably wrongs both parties.)

  4. hmmmm by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 4, Insightful

    One of the authors thinks the problem may have been due to a leak at a storage tank on the surface. Emphasis on the "may".

    Plus there's the concentration issue - parts per trillion doesn't make for much of a problem in any case. Even the authors didn't make this out to be a health problem....

    Of course, I could be mistaken, and the companies involved could be part of a massive conspiracy to slaughter Pennsylvanians by the millions.

    Yeah, on second thought, I'll have to go with the conspiracy thing. After all, everyone knows that even one part per trillion is too much, and the spill at the storage tank was probably just meant to cover up the deliberate poisoning of the water supply in three counties in rural PA....

    --

    "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    1. Re:hmmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I'm sure that with poor drilling methods that caused leaks that are already detectable in the water table, the contamination is sure to stop & not rise any further.

      Because the industry puts all its money into making sure that all wells are done perfectly, without contamination or leaks. Always have, and always will.

      I'm sure it's just a massive conspiracy that oil & gas companies make billions in profits every year. They actually spend all excess profits on safety.

    2. Re:hmmmm by Gadget_Guy · · Score: 1

      One of the authors thinks the problem may have been due to a leak at a storage tank on the surface. Emphasis on the "may".

      Plus there's the concentration issue - parts per trillion doesn't make for much of a problem in any case. Even the authors didn't make this out to be a health problem....

      So you are saying it was a pretty balanced and non-alarmist report then. That still didn't stop the industry shills from attacking it with their over-the-top "fact..fact..fact" format.

    3. Re:hmmmm by Sarten-X · · Score: 2

      And similarly, it doesn't stop the anti-fracking protesters from launching the usual counter-attacks.

      I guess the logic goes that the fracking folks are evil, and since they're complaining about the report, it must be good. Enemy of my enemy, right?

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    4. Re:hmmmm by necro81 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      parts per trillion doesn't make for much of a problem in any case

      There are plenty of contaminants in water that would be a serious problem at the parts per trillion level. Whether these chemicals are or not is, I think, not yet demonstrated.

    5. Re:hmmmm by thedonger · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Shame on you, you bad man. I don't know if fracking is actually good or bad*, but I do know that agreeing with fracking is bad.

      *Note: It doesn't seem like a good idea, but that is in no way based on hard science.

      --
      Help fight poverty: Punch a poor person.
    6. Re:hmmmm by jythie · · Score: 2

      While not 'slaughter', there is precedent for the energy industry in PA making life uncomfortable enough that residents leave and thus the price of land drops. The nicer the area to live, the more it costs to extract, but the sloppier your extraction the worse of an area it is to live and thus is cheaper, so the companies have an incentive to, if not be outright malicious, at least be sloppy since consequences favor them.

    7. Re:hmmmm by PopeRatzo · · Score: 0

      I guess the logic goes that the fracking folks are evil

      Yes, that's the logic.

      If you're one of those freaks that cares about logic.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    8. Re:hmmmm by ckatko · · Score: 1

      >Plus there's the concentration issue - parts per trillion doesn't make for much of a problem in any case. Even the authors didn't make this out to be a health problem....

      So you wouldn't mind drinking parts per trillion of heroin for your whole adult life? Or are you assuming that fracking chemicals are somehow safer, so that's not a fair equivalence?

    9. Re:hmmmm by Hotawa+Hawk-eye · · Score: 2

      Or it may have been contamination from the fracking process. Emphasis on the "may". It would be nice to do a little more investigation to determine where the contaminants actually came from. If it was a one-time accident (the leak in the storage tank) then the levels of the contaminants are unlikely to rise (assuming the accident doesn't recur) and the further investigation should show that. In that case, there doesn't seem to be any further action required (other than making sure the accident doesn't recur.) If it was a result of the ongoing fracking process, and an investigation of the process shows "bugs" that caused the contamination, the company should be required to fix those bugs in the process or otherwise improve the process to avoid or reduce further contamination.

      This investigation detected the odor of smoke in the air. It may be from a birthday candle or it may be from a house burning down. We probably should figure out which of those is happening.

    10. Re:hmmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      There are plenty of contaminants in water that would be a serious problem at the parts per trillion level

      Name one. I don't think you can.

      Most people don't understand how dilute ppm is. Just think: 20 people in a room would be 1 ppm in greater NYC. 7 people in a room would be 1 ppb in all of earth.

      OSHA uses ppm as the base unit for exposure limits. Most toxic substances are toxic at concentrations of more than 1 ppm - in other words, at least a million times more concentrated than ppt.

      Look at this page. The most toxic substance I could find was Nickel carbonyl, which is toxic at 1 ppb, which is still 1,000 times more concentrated than ppt.

    11. Re:hmmmm by itsenrique · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Indeed. If they contaminate your well to the point the water testing company says its not safe to drink, your property value did just drop. Then they can buy it and get the mineral rights cheap while they stall you for 10 years in court.

    12. Re:hmmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you wouldn't mind drinking parts per trillion of heroin for your whole adult life?

      Not sure he has a choice in the matter:

      Drinking water polluted with illicit drugs has been deemed acceptable by government agencies including the World Health Organization, the European Union, the US Environment Protection Agency in clear violation of the precautionary principle with regard to public health and safety.

      http://permaculturenews.org/2012/12/05/illicit-drugs-in-drinking-water/

    13. Re:hmmmm by dywolf · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Malice doesn't need to be part of the motivation in order for harm to be done. Simple negligence suffices.

      The purpose of the report was only and simply to state "hey, we detected some of the stuff in the water supply". It's a first step, but an important one as the biggest refrain we hear from the fracking companies is "it wont get in the water supply", "it's too deep", "we're taking precautions", etc.

      this paper, while not alarmist itself, rather pointedly proves that the companies are wrong, knowingly or not.

      and since they are wrong, further study will be warranted. particularly into the effects their chemicals can have, since most of them haven't been tested (most industrial chemicals aren't required to be tested for human safety), and are even considered trade secrets and thus in many instances its not even known (to the public) what chemicals are even being used.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    14. Re:hmmmm by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      Because industrialists and mining firms have never ever dumped toxic chemicals that ended up in drinking water before. No fucking sirreee, they're fucking angels and we should just let them do whatever the fuck they want,,, because MONEY!!!!

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    15. Re:hmmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is not about science, it's religion.

    16. Re:hmmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shame on you, you bad man.

      Careful. Them's fightin' words.

    17. Re:hmmmm by tburkhol · · Score: 2

      Plus there's the concentration issue - parts per trillion doesn't make for much of a problem in any case. Even the authors didn't make this out to be a health problem....

      That seems to be the point of the summary: that the study found small levels of contamination in a fairly confined region and were able to track that contamination (likely) to an uncharacteristic defect in one production facility. It sounds like a thoughtful, reasonable description that responsible producers could take as a warning to pay extra attention to storage facilities. Thus all the more disturbing that the producers' response was to go into full-bore discredit the tree-hugging scientists mode. Like when your doctor says "it's a cold: take two asprin and call me in the morning," and you sue him for diagnosing a non-existent tumor and botching the brain surgery.

    18. Re:hmmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So, I drink 3 litres of water a day with one part per trillion of heroin. That's 3 nanograms. It would take me a hundred lifetimes to ingest a dose of diamorphine that I would even notice, let alone a fatal one.

    19. Re:hmmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While it seems the industry is saying it is an identified, isolated and limited event not directly related to fracking itself, the detection, if it was related directly to fracking itself, would mean there is a pathway. Once there is a pathway, it could be very difficult to estimate how the concentration will evolve. Maybe they started to measure at just the start of the event, and now the concentration is actually already much, much higher. Maybe there are some pockets who will suddenly empty themselves completely and increase it to toxic levels. Maybe the leak will increase greatly at the source one day.

      Of course, everything can happen without any detection today. But that's what precautions are for. And if it is proved your precautions aren't enough, you are supposed to review and increase them, instead of doing nothing and waiting for something maybe much more immediately-important to happen...

      We have tons of examples of people doing nothing despite the warning signs, and then, one day, you get people dying on the news, and pollution vitally affecting many more for maybe decades.

    20. Re: hmmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like a Dukes of Hazzard plot line! Boss Hog would be proud.

    21. Re:hmmmm by alva_edison · · Score: 1

      >Plus there's the concentration issue - parts per trillion doesn't make for much of a problem in any case. Even the authors didn't make this out to be a health problem....

      So you wouldn't mind drinking parts per trillion of heroin for your whole adult life? Or are you assuming that fracking chemicals are somehow safer, so that's not a fair equivalence?

      Let's see if I can work this out. Heroin is an opiate, so effective dosage is probably in the milligram range. 369.41 g/mol so 1.63x10^18 parts for a dose. At ppt, you would need to drink 13 gallons of water to get a dose. From what I can tell it's about the same as taking a single Tylenol-3 every 11 days.

      --
      He effected a bored affect.
    22. Re:hmmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you drink water in the US, you're already drinking many many other contaminants at parts per MILLION ...

      http://water.epa.gov/drink/contaminants/index.cfm
       
      Idiots like you who can only see things in absolutes are the problem with the US today. Not everything is all or nothing, black or white.

    23. Re:hmmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Plus there's the concentration issue - parts per trillion

      So, it's not really poisoned water. It's more of a homeopathic cure.

    24. Re:hmmmm by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      After all, everyone knows that even one part per trillion is too much,

      If you subscribe to the theory of Homeopathy, this is extremely high levels.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    25. Re:hmmmm by smoot123 · · Score: 1

      It doesn't seem like a good idea, but that is in no way based on hard science.

      Reasonable people can disagree on this. Oil and gas released by fracking is driving huge reductions in coal use for power generation. Personally, I really like the unknown but apparently small costs from fracking against the known and enormous cost of mining and burning coal.

    26. Re:hmmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I realize I am a liberal whack job but I simply can not come to grips with the thinking that "a couple parts per billion" of some benzene dioxide whats-it is not a health problem. I see this pervasive thinking that somehow we should all just accept that simple clean air and clean water are a thing of the past. Recall that not too long ago now you could drink from any stream anywhere and there were no "couple parts per billion" of anything remotely harmful. I'm sure someone will point out that tap water in the U.S. has all kinds of trace amounts/couple parts per billion of toxic crap. I still don't think we should accept it. I shouldn't need to buy a filtration system for my home to have safe drinking water. I assume your home is near a fracking well, since you don't think a couple parts per billion of toxic crap in the water is a problem.

      Plus - again - liberal whack job here - jumping to the "oh woe to the simple companies just trying to make a buck" bandwagon. I mean come on, there are shades of grey here. No one thinks companies are inherently evil with business models predicated on slaughtering humans. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't take steps to protect ourselves from companies which are able to do a lot of damage in any number of directions - not the least of which ecologically - intentionally or unintentionally.

    27. Re:hmmmm by randallman · · Score: 1

      This might not be a problem if they just disclose what chemicals they're pumping into the ground. Then, we would either 1. Not need to worry or 2. setup monitoring stations to check for those specific chemicals.

    28. Re:hmmmm by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      When could you drink from any stream? That's pure bullshit. When people drank from any stream the most common cause of blindness was worms from open water eating your eyes.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    29. Re:hmmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Parts per trillion of heroin should be pretty safe too, actually. If you drink 1-2 kg of water per day, then you'd be getting maybe double-digit nanogram doses at most. I don't think you'd even really feel that.

  5. We've known about this for a decade now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    obviously nobodys going to do anything about it.

    The oil industry wont stop until they can sell us water for $3 a gallon.

  6. Trace Amounts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    From Article:
    The chemical, which is also commonly used in paint and cosmetics, is known to have caused tumors in rodents, though scientists have not determined if those carcinogenic properties translate to humans. The authors said the amount found, which was measured in parts per trillion, was within safety regulations and did not pose a health risk.

    1. Re:Trace Amounts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Trace amounts from a leaking well. Are they likely to go up, down or stay the same?

      Remember, if you're a local, your life may depend on the answer.

    2. Re:Trace Amounts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And nobody ever improperly cleans off paint outdoors. Must be from fracking, not from paint.

    3. Re:Trace Amounts by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      It could even come from cleaning brushes properly in a sink as the grey water would tend to go into a drainage field which eventually feeds back into the well.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    4. Re:Trace Amounts by cwsumner · · Score: 1

      It could even come from cleaning brushes properly in a sink as the grey water would tend to go into a drainage field which eventually feeds back into the well.

      Known for 100 years, as a bad problem. Wells now days are much deeper and sealed from surface contamination.

      However, you could have an important point. If the homeowner's well is leaking at the top, contamination could drain -down- into the well. Which is very dangerous, even without any fracking. If the company spills liquid on the ground, it could move with the water table to the leaking well, but so could anything else! Not good!

  7. Don't worry by dbIII · · Score: 4, Funny

    Don't worry, our "good friends" the Saudis have manipulated to oil price to drive the frackers out of business so it won't be a problem for long.
    Oh wait, only the ones that cut corners will be able to afford to survive so it will be a problem.
    Go tell your congressman to get off the Saudi teat and work for his own country and maybe we won't see so much of these problems.

  8. Make them drink it ... by gstoddart · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think any PR person, CEO, and other mouthpiece who says this stuff is perfectly safe should be forced to drink it. Daily. For a year. Their family included.

    If the PR clowns are going to claim it's safe, put their money where there mouth is. If they refuse to drink it, assume they're lying and feed them to bears.

    Hold these guys to some standard of truth instead of their accustomed truthiness, and see what they do.

    I'm so tired of these "think tanks" who are nothing more than paid shills who spout this crap just to obfuscate the truth -- it's no different than the tobacco lobby did. It's slimy and dishonest, and should carry a huge penalty.

    --
    Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    1. Re:Make them drink it ... by BCGlorfindel · · Score: 4, Informative

      I think any PR person, CEO, and other mouthpiece who says this stuff is perfectly safe should be forced to drink it. Daily. For a year. Their family included.

      If the PR clowns are going to claim it's safe, put their money where there mouth is. If they refuse to drink it, assume they're lying and feed them to bears.

      Hold these guys to some standard of truth instead of their accustomed truthiness, and see what they do.

      I'm so tired of these "think tanks" who are nothing more than paid shills who spout this crap just to obfuscate the truth -- it's no different than the tobacco lobby did. It's slimy and dishonest, and should carry a huge penalty.

      As noted before from Article:
      The chemical, which is also commonly used in paint and cosmetics, is known to have caused tumors in rodents, though scientists have not determined if those carcinogenic properties translate to humans. The authors said the amount found, which was measured in parts per trillion, was within safety regulations and did not pose a health risk.

    2. Re:Make them drink it ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What have you got against bears? You insensitive clod.

    3. Re:Make them drink it ... by PopeRatzo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The chemical, which is also commonly used in paint and cosmetics, is known to have caused tumors in rodents, though scientists have not determined if those carcinogenic properties translate to humans.

      Those are some of my favorite weasel phrases in this type of article.

      "Just because the chemical strips paint and causes mammals to dissolve into puddles of toxic goo does not mean it's unsafe for humans."

      So drink up, Mr Koch.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    4. Re:Make them drink it ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      YOU FIRST. If you're going to make them drink it, go for it yourself. By the by...there's worse stuff elsewhere that you blow off. But hey, it's all about the feels, right?

    5. Re:Make them drink it ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Rodents ?
      Great then it only affects the PR people and corporate executives. Normal people should be fine .

    6. Re:Make them drink it ... by PopeRatzo · · Score: 3, Informative

      YOU FIRST. If you're going to make them drink it, go for it yourself.

      Why would I drink it? I'm not the one injecting it into the water supply and claiming it's safe as milk.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    7. Re:Make them drink it ... by CaptainLard · · Score: 5, Informative

      They won't because they know something like this would happen...

      On October 30, 1924, Midgley participated in a press conference to demonstrate the apparent safety of TEL. In this demonstration, he poured TEL over his hands, then placed a bottle of the chemical under his nose and inhaled its vapor for sixty seconds, declaring that he could do this every day without succumbing to any problems whatsoever.[5][8] However, the State of New Jersey ordered the Bayway plant to be closed a few days later, and Jersey Standard was forbidden to manufacture TEL there again without state permission. Midgley sought treatment for lead poisoning in Europe a few months after his demonstration at the press conference

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T....

      That guy was the poster child for Hanlon's razor. Probably one of the single biggest environmental villains of all time, intentional or not.

    8. Re:Make them drink it ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you're ok with it if I poison you only a little bit?

    9. Re:Make them drink it ... by Drethon · · Score: 1

      Have you seen the nasty things salt does to metals and plants? Yet you happily eat that every day.

    10. Re:Make them drink it ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The safe concentration level of this chemical in milk is probably the same as the specification for water. From what I've read, the safety threshold for the chemical in food/water is 25ppm, and here we're talking ppt, so the concentrations are something like a million times lower. Sounds pretty safe to me.

    11. Re:Make them drink it ... by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      I don't know where you got the idea that the only levels of these chemicals showing up around fracking sites are in the parts per trillion. Because it's not true:

      http://www.sourcewatch.org/ind...

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    12. Re:Make them drink it ... by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Have you seen the nasty things salt does to metals and plants? Yet you happily eat that every day.

      Because people have eaten salt for millennia without negative effects.

      How long have people been drinking benzene, toluene, xylene, and ethylbenzene? Not to mention the substances that we don't know about that are in fracking fluid because they're "trade secrets".

      http://www.sourcewatch.org/ind...

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    13. Re:Make them drink it ... by Drethon · · Score: 1

      Toluene, found in pine oil: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T...
      Xylene, found in wood tar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X...

      The pine trees in my back yard probably put as much of these in the creek as they detected in the paper. I'm not saying it is healthy for you but nasty stuff has been in our water for as long as there have been people. The petroleum industry has made this worse but I wouldn't immediately attribute nearly undetectable quantities of a chemical to them

    14. Re:Make them drink it ... by captain_nifty · · Score: 1

      This makes me think of Hyman G. Rickover, Admiral in the US Navy and founder of the nuclear fleet.
      He once drank a glass of primary nuclear coolant (tritium laced water) in front of congress to demonstrate how safe the nuclear reactors were.

    15. Re:Make them drink it ... by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Toluene, found in pine oil: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T... [wikipedia.org]
      Xylene, found in wood tar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X... [wikipedia.org]

      The pine trees in my back yard probably put as much of these in the creek as they detected in the paper.

      You've convinced me.

      We should just let the oil industry do whatever they want, because everything's toxic so what's the harm in a few hundred people getting wealthy beyond dreams of avarice before we all die?

      And we're not talking about "parts per trillion" here. We're talking about concentrations up to 200 times the amount considered safe by the FDA.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    16. Re:Make them drink it ... by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      So you're ok with it if I poison you only a little bit?

      Sure. We do that every day. You think the water you drink is absolutely pure H2O, nothing else in it? You think the organic potato in the ground doesn't have trace amounts of what we might consider poisons in larger doses? We consume up to 50 micrograms of arsenic a day, and some think that very small amounts are a required dietary element in many animals, but lots of arsenic is clearly a poison. Uranium is also naturally found in the soil and sea water.

      There is nothing pure about life, nearly everything poisons "only a little bit."

    17. Re:Make them drink it ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTe6rk85EmE

    18. Re:Make them drink it ... by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Why would I drink it? I'm not the one injecting it into the water supply and claiming it's safe as milk.

      Neither are they. They are simply injecting it. Someone else is claiming that it's safe.

    19. Re:Make them drink it ... by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      They are simply injecting it. Someone else is claiming that it's safe.

      So, they're knowingly injecting toxic and carcinogenic chemicals into the water supply. Thank you for the clarification.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    20. Re:Make them drink it ... by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      You're knowingly ingesting carcinogenic chemicals with every cup of coffee. You're also knowingly ingesting a chemical that is fatal in a certain dose with every glass of water you drink, specifically H2O.

      I have no time for people who don't consider dose whenever they talk about a chemical, and think that chemical = bad because.. um... chemicals!!!!!

      Now if you'll excuse me I'm off to excrete in your watersupply.

    21. Re:Make them drink it ... by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      You're knowingly ingesting carcinogenic chemicals with every cup of coffee.

      Not me. I don't live near a fracking site.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    22. Re:Make them drink it ... by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      I'll take the Bushmill's single malt slow poison. 1 small ice cube.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    23. Re:Make them drink it ... by cwsumner · · Score: 1

      I think any PR person, CEO, and other mouthpiece who says this stuff is perfectly safe should be forced to drink it. ...

      If you think your nice city water is any better, then you should check the latest report from your water authority.

      When I lived "up north", one of the nearby towns issued a "boil order" to the citizens. There was a big news event and much screaming about "what happened?".

      The head of the local water authority came on TV and said that there was no need to worry. "The levels have been just below the limits for years, so it has not changed much." "Um... What?" 8-}

    24. Re:Make them drink it ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's measured in parts per trillion, apparently. Lots of safe things strip paint, so throwing that in there is misleading. And I don't think you know what cancer is, if you think it makes rodents dissolve into puddles of toxic goo. I'd feel reasonably confident about drinking this.

  9. Yes it has its issues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    but can these be fixed? is it the mistake of one company that should be penalised or is it intrinsic to the industry?

  10. Random Thoughts by puddingebola · · Score: 4, Informative

    Currently live about a half mile from the epicenter of some earthquakes where there have never been earthquakes before. Grew up here. Never experienced them before. Have had several 2-3 magnitude tremors now shake my building where I live. Yesterday the Texas Legislature banned bans on fracking. And of course, the city legislatures around here have been legalizing fracking and allowing it for the past several years. I expect to hear bullshit about the frequency of earthquakes justifying them as normal soon. In a few years, I expect to hear bullshit as to why unusual organic compounds are in our ground water. Then more bullshit about why it is in the drinking water.

    1. Re:Random Thoughts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I assume you live in the Dallas/Fort Worth area. I do too, and have a similar experience with the earthquakes. Nothing more than a minor shake so far - more of a novelty than a danger, really - but could they become more severe? Heck, I'm not a geologist/seismologist/whatever, I don't know. I'm definitely keeping an eye on it.

      I personally suspect injection wells rather than fracking to be the cause of the tremors. More power to the people who want to crusade against fracking with legitimate science on their side, but I hope they don't tie themselves too closely to the earthquake issue as a way of popularizing their cause with a big scary thing that resonates easily with people. I think they'd be proven wrong, and have the legs knocked out from under them when an alternative to the injection wells is worked out.

    2. Re:Random Thoughts by ninjagin · · Score: 1

      I live close to Denver and we had a 4.5 about 4 years ago. My house is about 110 years old and it cracked the plaster. About six months later, we started seeing the "learn about fracking" ads on TV -- sponsored by some petroleum institute mouthpiece. The ads are still running. Your nose for BS is very keen, and I have no doubt that you are right.

      --
      .. pa-ra-bo-la, pa-ra-bo-la, 2 pi R, 2 pi R, where's your latus rectum, where's your latus rectum, 2 pi R
    3. Re:Random Thoughts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've lived in the denver area for 20+ years. Don't recall any earthquake, but then again, coming from southern california originally and knowing that a 4.5 is literally not worth reporting, that might be why I don't recall it.

      Is it possible that your house is just falling apart?

  11. Basic Concept Fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Industry attacks what? Drinking water?

    Its up to the companies that market the water to filter it properly

    Do you understand the concept of a well that provides water to a home?

    1. Re:Basic Concept Fail by msauve · · Score: 1

      I don't think he even understands the concept of drinking water coming out of a tap.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    2. Re:Basic Concept Fail by jythie · · Score: 1

      Poes law strikes, since I can not tell if the poster is joking or not.

    3. Re:Basic Concept Fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I don't know about GGP, but after growing up in the developing world, drinkable tap water was a novel concept for me.

    4. Re:Basic Concept Fail by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      I would say very likely it is a serious post, as the issue is that many homes on the east coast that aren't in a city have wells that provide drinking water. In the case of these PA results, they come from home drinking water wells, not municipal water supplies.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    5. Re:Basic Concept Fail by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      I don't know about GGP, but after growing up in the developing world, drinkable tap water was a novel concept for me.

      That's why we call them shit countries. The first world should be held to a higher standard.

    6. Re:Basic Concept Fail by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Same as Germany. They only drink carbonated, salty water there. Call it mineral water. They look at you funny if you drink tap water.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  12. 2-Butoxyethanol is a common household chemical. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What's their evidence it came from fracking and not, say Windex?

  13. Should Be by Sir_Eptishous · · Score: 1

    more conservative well construction techniques should be used

    Ahhh, techniques that should be used.
    That phrase is used quite a lot regarding anything to do human health and safety.
    How often are those more conservative ways of making money used?

    And people wonder why things like the FDA and OSHA exist.

    --
    We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
    1. Re:Should Be by ckatko · · Score: 0

      Yeah, but every time they do their job, some asshat yells "They're infringing my rights!"

      Like when the government (and the UN's WHO) tried to put the expected daily amount of sugar on nutrition fact labels. Trade organizations got it fucking banned.

      Fun-fact: Daily sugar intake is 25 grams a day. That's less than half a bottle Dr Pepper. But who knows where obesity comes from? It's magic!

    2. Re:Should Be by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      Fun-fact: Daily sugar intake is 25 grams a day.

      25g is the WHO's recommendation, which they recently changed from 50g. Why? Science, of course! (that was sarcasm)

      But who knows where obesity comes from? It's magic!

      Government has a lousy history setting nutritional standards. High sugar consumption is due in large part due to government subsidies and government promotion of low fat diets.

  14. That Word, You Keep Using That Word by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The scientists involved claimed no health danger from the concentration found. Only the leftist green shills have been claiming a health danger.

    Shill: Noun A person paid to endorse a product favourably, while pretending to be impartial.

    Could you please explain to me who is paying these "leftist green shills"?

    1. Re:That Word, You Keep Using That Word by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The water....

  15. Re: 2-Butoxyethanol is a common household chemical by Sir_Eptishous · · Score: 0

    We can whip up a Windex frappe for you, and you can let us know how it tastes!

    --
    We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
  16. We could make even more bodyshaming the naked by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    On the other hand, no clothing at all would be bad for the profits of the fe-male clothing industry. What were those Ferengi thinking?

    But if we require our wo-men to go naked, there's a huge market in body paints, peircings (and jewellery), ass-bleaching and other body-related modifications/minstrations born out of body shaming and an inability to hide. We could make billions.

  17. School me on well water by swb · · Score: 0

    Is "well water" (drill hole into water table, pump out water) always used raw and unfiltered? Has it traditionally always been safe to drink anywhere you can sink a well, or is there some history of bad wells due to natural contamination?

    Every home I've ever been that had well water at least had a water softener and often had issues with high iron content. A woman I worked with who grew up on a farm said they had to buy bottled water (the giant kind of bottles you see on old school water coolers) for visitors because they had some kind of low-level bacterial contamination her family was immune to but would make guests sick.

    It seems like it would be common sense anymore to have a whole-house reverse osmosis system if you had a well. If not for health then for not choking your plumbing with mineral build up and making your washing machine and dishwasher work.

    1. Re:School me on well water by wile_e_wonka · · Score: 3, Insightful

      My understanding is that modern household water wells generally use reverse osmosis systems. Water quality from drinking wells varies widely depending on the location and quality of the well. But (1) they aren't 100% effective, nor can they be against unanticipated chemicals that weren't being pumped into the ground en masse at the time the well was designed, and (2) I shouldn't have to pay to upgrade my drinking water well filter to handle chemicals used in fracking. Fracking companies should be not contaminating my drinking water.

    2. Re:School me on well water by belthize · · Score: 4, Informative

      First of all people have been drinking water out of wells for several thousand years prior to the invention of reverse osmosis systems. In general it's completely safe, in specific areas it could be unwise.

      Second of all there's a difference between: is it safe to drink water from an arbitrary well, and why does this well that used to be safe to drink now contain fracking byproducts.

      If in fact the well had been perfectly fine to drink until recently and is now contaminated with fracking byproducts then I think it's reasonable to ask the drilling companies to stop and fix their system.

    3. Re:School me on well water by jythie · · Score: 1

      It is highly dependent on the region and how deep the well is. The point here is that wells which were appropriate for the area are now showing signs of chemicals that would not be there otherwise.

    4. Re:School me on well water by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is "well water" (drill hole into water table, pump out water) always used raw and unfiltered? Has it traditionally always been safe to drink anywhere you can sink a well, or is there some history of bad wells due to natural contamination?

      Every home I've ever been that had well water at least had a water softener and often had issues with high iron content. A woman I worked with who grew up on a farm said they had to buy bottled water (the giant kind of bottles you see on old school water coolers) for visitors because they had some kind of low-level bacterial contamination her family was immune to but would make guests sick.

      It seems like it would be common sense anymore to have a whole-house reverse osmosis system if you had a well. If not for health then for not choking your plumbing with mineral build up and making your washing machine and dishwasher work.

      Private well user here: I've put around $1000 worth of filtration, softening, and UV disinfection on my incoming water. After all that it's more than safe enough to drink and in the long run will be much cheaper than buying bottled water all the time plus the lack of a water bill made the ROI for this setup less than 2 years. I do go through quite a bit more softener salt than most people and have to use the slightly more expensive potassium chloride to remove the iron, but it's still cheaper than the average water bill around here and even the city tap water is hard enough to require softening anyway.

    5. Re:School me on well water by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I live in a rural area. Our water runs through a paper filter to keep out the little bit of sand that comes up every now and then. That's it. No softener, no RO, no treatment of any kind. So far it has tested clean, but we'll see how it goes. I live in the Barnett Shale area of Texas, and can see about half a dozen active natural gas wells from my front door.

    6. Re:School me on well water by johnnys · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problem there is that when the well is contaminated, it's WAY too late to do anything. Even if the responsible company immediately stops fracking completely, the well will continue to provide polluted water until the aquifer gets cleaned out somehow. That may be anytime from years to millenia.

      I think it's more reasonable for the landowner to be able to force the fracking company to "fix what they broke" and to ensure the landowner has a supply of clean water equal to their current well production available to them for free until the well runs clean again. Or the frackers pay for all the land at pre-fracking market value.

      Yeah, I'm a dreamer.

      --
      Sometimes the "writing on the wall" is blood spatter...
    7. Re:School me on well water by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nitrates !

      In farm areas, nitrate is often above 10ppm from fertilizer run off.

      That level is unsafe for infants, it causes anemia.
      Not to mention atrazine and other herbicides, they are nasty.

    8. Re:School me on well water by drinkypoo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      My understanding is that modern household water wells generally use reverse osmosis systems.

      Your understanding is incorrect. There is no standard template for a modern household water well. Modern household water wells generally use one or more mesh filters in the pump house, and usually one big carbon filter inside the house, commonly followed by a water softener. There may be an RO filter involved for drinking water, but there often is not.

      Most people don't use RO because of the high amount of waste water. If you don't have a grey water system, that's just additional cycling your pump has to do for no benefit.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    9. Re:School me on well water by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No In New England we just filter the well water through activated carbon. There's nothing like the taste of pure Artesion well water. There are some location that need to use a water softener.. the cheapest way to water soften is physical water treatment by reducing the surface tension of the water. It's simple. Reverse Osmosis on the other hand is expensive... only needed if you are turning salt water into potable water. And if that's the case you need to filter twice the amount of the water you need because you have to flush the brine. I'm with everyone else here. .. well water should be fit to drink with no processing at all. Besides.. water is a renewable resource.. if fracking is contaminating water sources then they should stop since the chemicals are going to end up in drinking water sources everywhere.. granted in the beginning it will be localized in high quantities but eventually that will spread over time. MTBE remember the cancer clusters that caused ?

    10. Re:School me on well water by msauve · · Score: 2

      Depends on the water quality. Just a particulate filter and softener are pretty common in my area. A softener will remove small amounts of iron, but there are systems ("iron filters") which will remove higher levels. But none of the above will remove organic chemicals or biologicals.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    11. Re:School me on well water by jerryjnormandin · · Score: 1

      Nope. if your water is hard you use a water softner.. the cheapest way to implement that is use an softener that uses aeration. For taste a good old charcoal/sand filtration system works fine. If the water isn't hard the natural filtration through the rocks and sand is plenty good enough, that's where the best tasting water comes from. That's why we get pissed at companies that frack or have land fills near aquifers. Water that is filtered naturally taste bests. Don't forget water is a renewable resource...

    12. Re:School me on well water by jabuzz · · Score: 1

      And people have been dying from drinking contaminated water for several thousand years as well.

      From a UK perspective so much angst about contaminated water wells is odd, because practically nobody here has them, and frankly if it where a problem if/when fracky starts in the UK then a simply solution would be to put in proper mains water for the handful of properties effected.

    13. Re:School me on well water by belthize · · Score: 1

      To be fair it's not at all clear that in this particular case the contamination came from fracking or is in fact even a health problem. Never the less the philosophical point still stands, the onus should be on the contaminator to stop, not the effected party to accommodate it.

    14. Re:School me on well water by mellon · · Score: 1

      Um. Have you ever heard of "natural spring water?" Mostly a marketing ploy, but it's based on the idea that water filtered down through hundreds of feet of rock is amazingly pure and good. I have been living on well water for the past four years, and it's the best water I've ever had. There is no need to filter it, because mother nature already took care of that. The idea that I could be obligated to add expensive post-processing to my well in order to render unsafe water safe is deeply offensive. You are proposing that it should be okay for some corporation to come in and fuck something that was really great, and then I have to pay to unfuck it to the point where it is not great, but merely not as toxic.

      Where I come from we call that shitting where you eat, and we consider people who do it lower than a snake's belly.

    15. Re:School me on well water by mellon · · Score: 2

      Your understanding is wrong. Reverse osmosis is used in places where the well water isn't safe to drink, but that's the exception, not the rule. Ever heard of the phrase "poisoning the well?" Used to be one of the worst war crimes there was.

    16. Re:School me on well water by sribe · · Score: 1

      My understanding is that modern household water wells generally use reverse osmosis systems.

      Nope. Reverse osmosis is highly inefficient.

    17. Re:School me on well water by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have a well that was drilled 250' into granite bedrock. The water is crystal clear, and has tested safe for bacterial and mineral content. It is also little soft (has some sodium, maybe because I live near the ocean), so there is no filtration or treatment whatsoever. In fact, I know many people around here that use their well water untreated/unfiltered.

    18. Re:School me on well water by N1AK · · Score: 1

      The resistance to fracking in the UK isn't about wells specifically, if at all, it's about pollution and contamination in general. You can argue all you like that this contamination is harmless and/or could be easily worked around, but the more fundamental issue is that this kind of contamination is exactly the kind of thing that the public were told categorically and unequivocally couldn't happen. What other unexpected contamination will there be, and what unforeseen (or suppressed) consequences are there?

    19. Re:School me on well water by dywolf · · Score: 1

      depends on the well and where you live. new wells are often tested when dug, especially if an area is known for said microbial problems. but rock is a pretty good filter, and most wells are pretty safe in my own experience. my grandparents well has been in operation for close to 45 years, and it just runs right to the house, pure as....water. no softening or filters needed. tastes pretty good too. but that's the norm where they live.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    20. Re:School me on well water by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm in the UK and I work in a 5 story building in an industrial park on the edge of a medium-sized city. The building's late 80's vintage. Just found out the other week it has mains sewage, but not water, just a borehole. Modern building with ~180 employees.

    21. Re:School me on well water by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      It IS a marketing ploy. There is no a priori reason for 'natural spring water' to be particularly clean or pure. It depends on WHAT rocks the water went through, whether there were heavy metals leaching through the water table, whether there are bacteria from nearby sources that are leaking though and a host of other things.

      "Natural spring water" makes as much health sense as 'Naturally radioactive'.

      Sorry if you're deeply offended. The world is like that sometimes.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    22. Re:School me on well water by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Depends where you live. Some geology produces awful tasting well water. CA northern central valley comes to mind. I walked away from houses that are served by well water. Always taste the water before you buy a house.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    23. Re:School me on well water by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 2

      The problem there is that when the well is contaminated, it's WAY too late to do anything. Even if the responsible company immediately stops fracking completely, the well will continue to provide polluted water until the aquifer gets cleaned out somehow. That may be anytime from years to millenia.

      Might want to check on the particular chemical in question;

      2-Butoxyethanol biodegrades in soils and water, with a half life of 1–4 weeks in aquatic environments.[6]

    24. Re:School me on well water by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I'm a dreamer.

      But you're not the only one...

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    25. Re:School me on well water by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      The US is far less developed than the UK. Do your farms have city water or wells? The houses discussed in this article are very likely farms as PA has lots of farms.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    26. Re:School me on well water by mellon · · Score: 1

      I'm not offended. I'm just correcting what swb said. The reality is that most well water doesn't have to be filtered for safety. In some places you need a radon bubbler to get the radon out of it, but for the most part the stuff is fine. When I was on well water in southeastern Arizona, we definitely filtered it, because it had a high sulfur content and didn't taste very good, but it was fine to drink.

    27. Re:School me on well water by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wondered about that as well. They blame the well construction for the detection. Then they go on to state it has a half life of 28 days and couldn't possibly be from them. Yet, presumably the wells were constructed long before the 28-day period and their fracking.

    28. Re:School me on well water by smoot123 · · Score: 1

      Second of all there's a difference between: is it safe to drink water from an arbitrary well, and why does this well that used to be safe to drink now contain fracking byproducts.

      Did you read TFA? (This is Slashdot, why did I waste electrons asking?) It says the chemical concentration is well below safety limits. There is no reason to believe the water is unsafe.

      If you put that aside, I do tend to agree, if the water used to be safe and now it's not and it is reasonably clear the drilling had something to do with it, the drillers have an ethical responsibility to make the well owners right.

    29. Re:School me on well water by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      If you can find a house in CA that has water, you'll be doing well.

      I do have a RO filter, which comes after a spin down, a mesh, and a carbon mesh.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    30. Re:School me on well water by Ranbot · · Score: 1

      Groundwater in NATURAL GAS formations was contaminated by mother nature millions of years before fracking. In the case of Marcellus Shale there's also naturally radioactive rock just above the Marcellus Shale. No one is drinking water sourced from anywhere near a gas formation. So, the idea that frack fluids, which are 99% clean sand and potable water mind you, are contaminating that groundwater is fundamentally flawed.

    31. Re:School me on well water by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      The people I know in the hills have water in the wells, just not enough to keep their crops wet. They can afford water trucks, unless the price of 'medicine' crashes.

      N Cal central valley wells are still mostly wet. S Cal on the other hand is dry as hell. Which is the unspoken part of the CA water crisis. S Cal expects N Cal to suffer with them (and give them all our water). The only reason my water is even metered is LA threw a tantrum.

      Nobody actually cares about the delta smelt, they are minnows. But it's the only way to prevent S Cal from voting themselves all our water.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    32. Re:School me on well water by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Companies don't frack when the natural gas can contaminate the ground water, because they can get the natural gas cheaper with conventional means. They frack when there's impermeable rock above the natural gas, which normally keeps the gas away from the aquifer. As far as the 99% potable water goes, are you willing to drink a glass of anything that's 99% pure water? You're sure that about two grams of contaminant can do no harm?

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    33. Re:School me on well water by Ranbot · · Score: 1

      FWIW, I am an environmental consultant, a geologist, I live in Pennsylvania, I do not work for any oil and gas companies, so I have no conflict of interest (you'll have to trust me there), but I am interested in the subject and have done quite a bit of my own research.

      Companies don't frack when the natural gas can contaminate the ground water, because they can get the natural gas cheaper with conventional means. They frack when there's impermeable rock above the natural gas, which normally keeps the gas away from the aquifer.

      This is an incorrect understanding of fracking and geology in general. "Impenetrable rock" above the shale is irrelevant, because fracking anything other than the gas-bearing shale formation would be a huge waste of time/money. In gas-bearing shale formations the gas is locked up in the matrix of the shale and cannot easily flow into a gas well. The fracking targets the gas-bearing shale formation to artificially increase the inter-connections so that gas can flow within and out of the formation. Or another way to think of is by surface area...a well in an unfractured formation only has the exposed surface area immediately around the well borehole to gather gas from, but when you fracture the surrounding rock the effective surface area of exposed rock is exponentially increased by cumulative surface area of the fractures.

      As far as the 99% potable water goes, are you willing to drink a glass of anything that's 99% pure water? You're sure that about two grams of contaminant can do no harm?

      Again this is a misunderstanding of reality. Frack water is 99% potable water and clean sand, the remaining 1% is are lubricants and biocides, many of which are actually food-grade, so in reality much less than 1% is anything that could be considered a "hazardous chemical". Immediately after a well is fracked the vast majority of the injected water flows back out of the well, so a fraction of that 1% is actually left in the ground. Mind you this is into a GAS formation that was unfit for human consumption before any fracking.

      If that's not enough, consider also that shale gas formations are typically between 2,000 to 14,000 feet below ground, and drinking water wells are typically 50 to 500 feet deep. Fracking is powerfull, but it's not powerful to open up fractures through, literally, miles through solid rock, So, the fraction of a fraction of "hazardous chemicals" remaining in the ground after a frack would have to travel vertically thousands of feet of rock while resisting dispersion/dilution with the surrounding water to reach a well. Assuming the gas well is properly constructed and the frack wastes are properly handled it's basically impossible for frack water make it's way to a drinking well.

      Before you call me a shill for the evil energy companies, there are issues with fracking we should be concerned about, but the public concern is currently misguided. We should be concerned about how the recovered contaminated frack water is being handled and disposed. We should be concerned that gas wells are properly constructed and sealed. Those are real problems, but, thankfully, can be solved with the correct regulations, oversight, and strict penalties. The problem is the public hysteria is directed at the wrong issues, and it's making it harder to address the real ones.

    34. Re:School me on well water by cwsumner · · Score: 1

      Is "well water" (drill hole into water table, pump out water) always used raw and unfiltered? Has it traditionally always been safe to drink anywhere you can sink a well, or is there some history of bad wells due to natural contamination? ...

      Usually used raw, even now. No it has not always been safe, but much better these days.

      You have hit most of the points, but there is one thing. Before WWI wells were often down to the water table, like the stone wells with the bucket and crank handle. But more recently most water wells are much deeper, usually below a layer of rock, so that they are protected from surface contamination. I think the wells around here go down 500 to 1000 feet. (?)

      Mineral content tasts bad and makes build-up on things, but is not usually harmful. See "Artesian Well". Bacteria, which can be harmful, is not usual that deep. And it can be harder to remove from the water, unless you boil it. I think Reverse Osmosis is to remove minerals, not bacteria. (But maybe both?)

  18. 2-Butoxyethanol by cirby · · Score: 4, Interesting

    That's the chemical.

    They found it (a very small amount) in the water. Parts-per-trillion levels.

    It's used in fracking fluids - and also in a LOT of other places, like paints, sealants, cleaning products, et bloody cetera. The shocker would be if they didn't find the stuff. Here's a partial list of chemicals that use it:

    http://hpd.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/household/search?tbl=TblChemicals&queryx=111-76-2

    It's used in many Simple Green products, a LOT of Rustoleum paints, and a lot of others. Minwax, Goo-Gone, Zep, Windex... the list is pretty long. And all it would take would be a home mechanic spilling a bottle of one of those products to get to that same parts-per-trillion levels in their own well water.

    The paper suggests that the chemical may have come from a surface-level leak at a nearby well - and that they can't actually tie the chemical to the actual fracking chemicals used at that well.

    1. Re:2-Butoxyethanol by Rob+Y. · · Score: 1

      What I want to know is why they use this shit in fracking at all. I assume it's because it makes the process more efficient - but how much more? If it's not by a huge amount - say 50% or more - then maybe it's worth using safer materials in the fracking process and having the resulting natural gas cost somewhat more. Currently, I think, drillers don't even have to disclose what they pump into the ground. Why should fracking get a pass on safety? Our cars, etc. have mandated safety features that make them cost more. You may argue over whether some specific feature is worth the cost - but that's what democracy's for. And you may say we don't have much of a functioning democracy any more, but that kind of defeatist attitude does not constitute an answer.

      --
      Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
    2. Re:2-Butoxyethanol by drinkypoo · · Score: 0

      What I want to know is why they use this shit in fracking at all. I assume it's because it makes the process more efficient -

      Yes. The process of disposing of refinery wastes. The reason they don't want you to know precisely what's in their fracking fluids and where they came from is that these compounds are wastes left over from the petroleum refining process, and they are taking this opportunity to dispose of them by injecting them into our aquifers.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re:2-Butoxyethanol by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Before railing on safety as it relates to 2-butoxyethanol, you may want to look it up on wikipedia. Aside from being used just about everywhere as a surfectant, it is approved by the FDA as a food additive; Im pretty sure that means its not a safety hazard.

    4. Re:2-Butoxyethanol by LordLimecat · · Score: 3

      That is an interesting and completely baseless theory, but Im not sure what anyone is supposed to do with it. If you have evidence to support it I imagine it would make for a pretty juicy story, though.

    5. Re:2-Butoxyethanol by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      That is an interesting and completely baseless theory

      It's the very first thing I thought when I read the first-released list of fracking chemicals, years back.

      If you have evidence to support it I imagine it would make for a pretty juicy story, though.

      The list of chemicals they have announced supports it.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    6. Re:2-Butoxyethanol by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      What I want to know is why they use this shit in fracking at all.

      For the same reason they use it in cosmetics and food: it's cheap, it's safe, and it gets the job done.

      Currently, I think, drillers don't even have to disclose what they pump into the ground. Why should fracking get a pass on safety?

      The composition of fracking fluids is well documented; go look it up on the web.

      The problem with it is not the composition, it's hysteria.

      http://sharonspringsspa.com/fr...

    7. Re:2-Butoxyethanol by MiniMike · · Score: 1

      It's used in fracking fluids - and also in a LOT of other places, like paints, sealants, cleaning products, et bloody cetera. The shocker would be if they didn't find the stuff.

      It's used in many Simple Green products, a LOT of Rustoleum paints, and a lot of others. Minwax, Goo-Gone, Zep, Windex... the list is pretty long. And all it would take would be a home mechanic spilling a bottle of one of those products to get to that same parts-per-trillion levels in their own well water.

      The paper suggests that the chemical may have come from a surface-level leak at a nearby well - and that they can't actually tie the chemical to the actual fracking chemicals used at that well.

      You raise some good points, but also some further questions that would help validate or invalidate this study. Since this chemical is apparently ubiquitous, is it also found at similar levels in wells not located near fracking sites? Does the concentration vary with distance from fracking sites? Since fracking is relatively recent, is there any historical data on chemical concentrations in wells?

      Note that (from TFA) "an unresolved complex mixture of organic compounds was identified" which included 2-Butoxyethanol, and that "Similar signatures were also observed in flowback from Marcellus Shale gas wells" which seems like a bit of a smoking gun. It is also implied that the reason they can't actually tie the chemical mixture to the specific well is that the operator is not making samples available.

      Also from TFA is that the wells that were tested were chosen because they were 'foaming' from the chemicals. I doubt that the well foamed from the date of construction.

    8. Re:2-Butoxyethanol by HornWumpus · · Score: 2

      Waste disposal wells are common, but are all far deeper than any aquifers. Oil is pretty toxic, so pumping crud down in place of former oil makes all kinds of sense. They have nothing in particular to do with fracking. Water separated from oil is almost always injected down a disposal well. Water from that deep is very acidic and useless as water from the start.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    9. Re:2-Butoxyethanol by quantaman · · Score: 1

      What I want to know is why they use this shit in fracking at all. I assume it's because it makes the process more efficient -

      Yes. The process of disposing of refinery wastes. The reason they don't want you to know precisely what's in their fracking fluids and where they came from is that these compounds are wastes left over from the petroleum refining process, and they are taking this opportunity to dispose of them by injecting them into our aquifers.

      It's might be simpler than that.

      Part of it might just be trade secrets, your ability to frack profitably is based on your ability to be more efficient than your competitors. Telling them your secret sauce makes that harder to do.

      The other part is PR, when people want to criticize you it's easier for them if they have specific compounds to criticize. It doesn't matter if it's as innocuous as dihydrogen monoxide or as toxic as plutonium, if they have a specific label to attach to it they can make it sound bad.

      --
      I stole this Sig
    10. Re:2-Butoxyethanol by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      And all it would take would be a home mechanic spilling a bottle of one of those products to get to that same parts-per-trillion levels in their own well water.

      It would take a lot more than that, in all likelihood. It's usually not trivial for something you spill to wind up in your well unless you've got an open well, and you spill into it.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    11. Re:2-Butoxyethanol by itsenrique · · Score: 1

      I don't know why this is downmodded, it's right on point.

    12. Re:2-Butoxyethanol by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is an interesting and completely baseless theory, but Im not sure what anyone is supposed to do with it. If you have evidence to support it I imagine it would make for a pretty juicy story, though.

      Interestingly enough a law was passed which only practical effect is to eliminate the ability for anyone to actually investigate such claims.

    13. Re:2-Butoxyethanol by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      They require you to place the leach fields of your septic system away from and downhill from your well for a reason. It's not hard to contaminate a well.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    14. Re:2-Butoxyethanol by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      They require you to place the leach fields of your septic system away from and downhill from your well for a reason.

      Mine is both near to and uphill from my well, but my well also goes through a clay cap.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    15. Re:2-Butoxyethanol by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Just as with fracking, it's all about how the well hole is sealed. That clay cap has a hole in it now.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    16. Re:2-Butoxyethanol by Rob+Y. · · Score: 1

      But my question is - how much cheaper is it than other, perhaps safer (or even just safer-sounding) materials. Obviously extracting natural gas is a hugely profitable business - but do we really have to roll over and accept whatever methods they want to use, just to make their business as profitable as possible. That's where regulations are supposed to come in - to make sure that the trade-offs between maximum profitability and public safety are forced rather than counting on industry to make them out of, oh, concern for safety. I imagine some of you will start from an assumption that any regulation is going to be excessive and unnecessary. So let me call bullshit in advance.

      --
      Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
    17. Re:2-Butoxyethanol by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Yes. The process of disposing of refinery wastes. The reason they don't want you to know precisely what's in their fracking fluids and where they came from is that these compounds are wastes left over from the petroleum refining process, and they are taking this opportunity to dispose of them by injecting them into our aquifers.

      Oh my god you've gone full retard. Treating refining waste water is something that is trivially easy to do and far FAR cheaper than moving it off-site to dump in some hole.

      Look I get it, you're an incredible skeptic who (quite rightfully) thinks corporations will do anything to help their bottom line. Even through that lens your conspiracy theory is right up there with the faked moon landings.

    18. Re:2-Butoxyethanol by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      The list of chemicals they have announced supports it.

      Hmmm H2O is a refinery waste stream too. I guess since I found that in my water it MUST be refinery waste. There's absolutely no way on earth that one chemical can be used for more than one purpose.

    19. Re:2-Butoxyethanol by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      But my question is - how much cheaper is it than other, perhaps safer (or even just safer-sounding) materials.

      I don't know what you would replace it with that would be cheaper. Executives for oil companies have drunk fracking liquid, and that's the stuff that goes into the ground; it's vastly more diluted even if it makes it into someone's well.

      That's where regulations are supposed to come in - to make sure that the trade-offs between maximum profitability and public safety are forced rather than counting on industry to make them out of, oh, concern for safety.

      There is no concern for public safety from these chemicals. Even if there were hypothetically, it would still be economically far more rational for fracking companies to pay home owners to shut down their wells and get municipal drinking water than to stop fracking.

      I imagine some of you will start from an assumption that any regulation is going to be excessive and unnecessary. So let me call bullshit in advance.

      That's because you don't understand the alternative to regulation. The alternative to regulation isn't a free-for-all, it is strict civil liability. See, you misunderstand environmental regulations as protection from evil corporations; but what environmental regulations really are are a license to pollute for corporations up to some limit. Those limits are too lenient in some cases and too strict in others.

    20. Re:2-Butoxyethanol by will_die · · Score: 1

      Currently, I think, drillers don't even have to disclose what they pump into the ground.
      That is a common false claim by the anti-science people. You can do a google search and find starting listings of chemicals and percentages for some states, other states don't require publicly listing but that they be filed with the states.
      However mixture percentages changes all the time based on the rock formation also the water picks up chemicals in the rocks and that gets reused so you have the anti-science people complaining that they are using toxic chemicals in fracking when they are present because those chemicals are found in nature.

    21. Re:2-Butoxyethanol by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      There's absolutely no way on earth that one chemical can be used for more than one purpose.

      Okay, now explain which other source of it is getting into the municipal water supply. We have time, we'll wait. And while you're at it, why don't you learn how to follow the conversation threads? This one is talking about whether fracking fluid is refinery waste, not about where the water contamination came from, try to keep up, kid.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    22. Re:2-Butoxyethanol by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Thats also worth discussing, but is pretty terrible evidence in and of itself.

    23. Re:2-Butoxyethanol by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Oh I am following the thread, I also notice you're cherry picking answers. I'm still waiting to hear what you think about my other post, you know the bit about water treatment being trivially easy and extremely cheap compared to transporting waste products.

      As for how some chemicals get into the water supply, in parts per trillion levels... I'm absolutely speechless. You do realize humans have been fucking up the water supply for a good 1000 years right? I'm willing to bet you'd find any contaminant in a water well at a part per trillion level. Even if your absurd idea that someone is packaging easy to process waste into trucks and then delivering it to fracking sites and pouring it down the holes as a method of... cost reduction (everyone here at work is staring at me because I had to laugh out aloud at the absurd notion that you think this is even remotely cost effective), ... it's in parts per trillion levels.

      Let me put this into perspective. 0.0000000001%
      This would give homeopaths a hard-on.

  19. the issue is being blown out of proportion. by nimbius · · Score: 4, Funny

    As an oil and gas industry professional I dont see anything wrong here. What Pennsylvania is complaining about is their own hubris and greed. Friendly patrio-tastic drilling companies asked kindly if they could carefully remove oils and gasses in the fight against terrorism and to prevent the war on christmas. Once informed citizens understood both gasses and oils had to be removed from the ground in order for jesus to love them and no child to be left behind, companies reluctantly did that which was most needful at the time. It was difficult, but we removed gasses and oils, and converted them to fresh clean and definitely not unhealthy gasoline to power freedom loving americans SUV's and trucks. But after a time, Pennsylvanians became greedy.

    2-Butoxyethanol...no more, no less. We promised 2 of them to help invigorate the spleen and whiten teeth. But whats next? 4? 5? god forbid 8 Butoxyethanols?! We're being squeezed to death here.

    --
    Good people go to bed earlier.
    1. Re:the issue is being blown out of proportion. by Rob+Y. · · Score: 2

      You're giving your readers a lot of credit for understanding satire ;-)

      --
      Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
    2. Re:the issue is being blown out of proportion. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please tell me about the benefits of growing extra limbs when the fracking chemicals cause tumorous growths that may develop into a third arm or leg?

    3. Re:the issue is being blown out of proportion. by Amouth · · Score: 1

      http://dilbert.com/strip/1994-...

      it's only devolution in action :)

      --
      '...if only "Jumping to a Conclusion" was an event in the Olympics.'
    4. Re:the issue is being blown out of proportion. by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      You can get a job as a '3 armed wonder comic'.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  20. Executives who poison the land should arrested by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Moreover, limits on ``cruel and unusual'' should be waived and they should be required to live in the center of the destruction they have caused, and sentenced to working at fixing things until things are cleaned up.

  21. Price of bottled water by sjbe · · Score: 2

    The oil industry wont stop until they can sell us water for $3 a gallon.

    That would be a discount from what people already are paying for water. People are voluntarily buying bottled tap water at $7.57 per gallon right now. Approximately 2000X what it would cost from the tap.

  22. Correlation != causation by RogueWarrior65 · · Score: 4, Informative

    From the wikipedia entry on the chemical:
    2-Butoxyethanol is a solvent for paints and surface coatings, as well as cleaning products and inks. Products that contain 2-butoxyethanol include acrylic resin formulations, asphalt release agents, firefighting foam, leather protectors, oil spill dispersants, degreaser applications, photographic strip solutions, whiteboard cleaners, liquid soaps, cosmetics, dry cleaning solutions, lacquers, varnishes, herbicides, latex paints, enamels, printing paste, and varnish removers, and silicone caulk. Products containing this compound are commonly found at construction sites, automobile repair shops, print shops, and facilities that produce sterilizing and cleaning products. It is the main ingredient of many home, commercial and industrial cleaning solutions. Since the molecule has both non-polar and polar ends, butoxyethanol is useful for removing both polar and non-polar substances, like grease and oils. It is also approved by the U.S. FDA to be used as direct and indirect food additives, which include antimicrobial agents, defoamers, stabilizers, and adhesives.

    So, basically, this stuff can be found pretty much EVERYWHERE and pretty much everywhere in or around a home. But, nope, nope, nope, these samples HAD to come from fracking wells.

    1. Re:Correlation != causation by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      So, basically, this stuff can be found pretty much EVERYWHERE and pretty much everywhere in or around a home.

      Thank you. That makes me feel a LOT better.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    2. Re:Correlation != causation by Eravnrekaree · · Score: 1

      They are pumping this stuff by the thousands of gallons into the ground. But, no, it must be something other than fracking, anything but fracking.

      Even though its used by cleaners, doesnt mean its not toxic, many things are toxic which are found in consumer applications, even lethal.

    3. Re:Correlation != causation by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Maybe that 2nd to last sentence will help:

      It is also approved by the U.S. FDA to be used as direct and indirect food additives

    4. Re:Correlation != causation by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      You didnt even read what he posted. The thing that means its not toxic is that the FDA has approved it as direct and indirect food additives. Read the 2nd to last sentence of his quote.

    5. Re:Correlation != causation by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      It is also approved by the U.S. FDA to be used as direct and indirect food additives

      Now you've REALLY made me feel better!

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    6. Re:Correlation != causation by CaptainLard · · Score: 1

      Well actually, an entire peer reviewed research paper was written on what possible methods contamination from fracking wells can get into drinking water. It includes historical records of chemicals found in the water table dating back to the 60's and also methods of determining which contaminates came from which well. It also notes that 2-Butoxyethanol is found in cosmetics etc. and you can read it here: http://www.marcellus.psu.edu/n...

      Its also the first link in the summary.

    7. Re:Correlation != causation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You did RTFA? So, it is found everywhere, but the wells that weren't near the drilling site...And you did read the part where the drilling company bought the properties because the wells in question had already been contaminated by natural gas? So, we don't know where these chemicals came from...yeah right...

    8. Re:Correlation != causation by pipingguy · · Score: 1

      Dude! Get with the hysteria, outrage and FUD program!

    9. Re:Correlation != causation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You didnt even read what he posted. The thing that means its not toxic is that the FDA has approved it as direct and indirect food additives. Read the 2nd to last sentence of his quote.

      Does that mean you are ok with people pouring Asparatame into your tap water?

      The FDA approves that after all.

      How about these other things the FDA approved (and then said whoops!_:
      1. Accutane (Isotretinoin) on the market for
      27
      YEARS
      Use: Acne Manufacturer: Hoffman-La Roche 1982 to June 2009
      Cause for recall:
      increased risk of birth defects, miscarriages, and premature births when used by pregnant women; inflammatory bowel disease; suicidal tendencies

      Over 7,000 lawsuits were filed against the manufacturer over the side effects including a $10.5 million verdict and two $9 million verdicts.

      2. Baycol (Cerivastatin) on the market for
      3
      YEARS
      Use: Cholesterol reduction Manufacturer: Bayer A.G. 1998 to Aug. 2001
      Cause for recall:
      rhabdomyolysis (breakdown of muscle fibers that results in myoglobin being released into the bloodstream) which led to kidney failure; 52 deaths (31 in the US) worldwide; 385 nonfatal cases with most requiring hospitalization; 12 of the deaths were related to taking this drug in combination with gemfibrozil (Lopid)

      3. Bextra (Valdecoxib) on the market for
      3.3
      YEARS
      Use: NSAID (pain relief) Manufacturer: G.D. Searle & Co. Nov. 20, 2001 to Apr. 7, 2005
      Cause for recall:
      serious cardiovascular adverse events (like death, MI, stroke); increased risk of serious skin reactions (like toxic epidermal necrolysis, Stevens-Johnson syndrome, erythema multiforme); gastrointestinal bleeding

      The FDA determined that Bextra showed no advantage over other NSAID pain relievers on the market.
      bextra prescription drug ad
      Bernadette Tansey, "Hard Sell: How Marketing Drives the Pharmaceutical Industry/The Side Effects of Drug Promotion/Aggressive Ads for Painkillers Left More Patients Exposed to Risk," www.sfgate.com, Feb. 27, 2005

      4. Cylert (Pemoline) on the market for
      30
      YEARS
      Use: Central nervous system stimulant to treat ADHD/ADD Manufacturer: Abbott Laboratories 1975 to Oct. 2010
      Cause for recall:
      liver toxicity

      The FDA added a box warning to Cylert in 1999, alerting doctors and patients to the potential of liver damage.
      cylert prescription drug ad
      Abbott Laboratories, "Cylert," American Journal of Diseases of Children, www.bonkersinstitute.org, 1976

      5. Darvon & Darvocet (Propoxyphene) on the market for
      55
      YEARS
      Use: Opioid pain reliever Manufacturer: Xanodyne 1955 to
      Nov. 19, 2010
      Cause for recall:
      serious toxicity to the heart; between 1981 and 1999 there were over 2,110 deaths reported

      The UK banned Darvon and Darvocet in 2005. The FDA was petitioned in 1978 and again in 2006 to ban the drug by the group Public Citizen.
      darvon prescription drug ad
      Christian Sinclair, "Are You Glad Darvocet Got Pulled by the FDA? Are You Sure?," www.pallimed.org, Nov. 30, 2010

      6. DBI (Phenformin) on the market for
      19
      YEARS
      Use: antidiabetic Manufacturer: Ciba-Geigy 1959 to Nov. 1978
      Cause for recall:
      lactic acidosis (low pH in body tissues and blood and a buildup of lactate) in patients with diabetes

      7. DES (Diethylstibestrol) on the market for
      31
      YEARS
      Use: synthetic estrogen to prevent miscarriage, premature labor, and other pregnancy complications Manufacturer: Grant Chemical Co. 1940 to 1971
      Cause for recall:
      clear cell adenocarcinoma (cancer of the cervix and vagina), birth defects, and other developmental abnormalities in children born to women who took the drug while pregnant; increased risk of breast cancer, higher risk of death from breast cancer; risk of cancer in children of mothers taking the drug including raised risk of breast cancer after age 40; increased risk of fertility and pregnancy complications, earl

    10. Re:Correlation != causation by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Im not sure I have the gist of your argument, but heres what I'm getting:

      1) Chemical that is used everywhere, and also by the fracking industry, is found in our groundwater.
      2) The source is unclear.
      3) The chemical has been generally approved for use in food
      4) Sometimes the FDA is wrong.

      Ergo, the fracking industry is at fault for releasing a chemical that is toxic, and we're all at serious health risk.

      Let me know if / where I missed a step, but if thats the entirety of it, it seems like a pretty weak argument.

    11. Re:Correlation != causation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1) Well water is clean.
      2) Fracking starts.
      3) Well water is not clean.

      Sure, it could have been Scientology's aliens that poisoned the well, but reasonable people will look to the chemicals being injected into the ground next door first. If I shoot you in the head, it is possible you would have died anyway from a brain aneurism, but I'd still be charged with murder.

  23. Seems the "industry" may be correct about this one by butchersong · · Score: 2
    I'm not an apologist for the oil industry and I wouldn't want to have any of these wells near my place but I did grow up in it. It seems to me extremely more likely that the issue isn't the process of fracking but

    1) a problem with the pipe further up near the surface. When you have an oil well (even a regular old one) you get all sorts of stuff that comes up water, the gases we call "natural gas", nasty deadly gases and "oil".

    2) some other source of contamination completely unrelated to drilling which given their measurement of the concentration at parts per trillion seems likely..

    Even if the problem is the first one I imagine there would be nastier compounds I would be more worried about.

  24. So? How that relevent? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Every home I've ever been that had well water at least had a water softener and often had issues with high iron content. A woman I worked with who grew up on a farm said they had to buy bottled water (the giant kind of bottles you see on old school water coolers) for visitors because they had some kind of low-level bacterial contamination her family was immune to but would make guests sick.

    So? What's your point? It's one thing if you know up front what the problems, if any, are. It's another when a company comes by later and fucks it up.

    I lived in a house that had well water. After drilling, it went for testing and it came back incredibly clean on it's own. All we had to do was pump and use.

    Now if a fracker came by and polluted my water - after having it been tested and ccleared - I would sue them and they'd deserve it.

  25. In other news by necro81 · · Score: 1

    One 4th grader calls another a "doody-head." Doody-head calls the first 4th grader a "poopy-face"

  26. Carcinogenic by Eravnrekaree · · Score: 1

    This chemical has been shown to cause liver cancer in animals and to be a probable human carcinogen. It also can cuase reproductive issues along with many other problems

    1. Re:Carcinogenic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At what level?
      ppt?
      ppb?
      ppm?

    2. Re:Carcinogenic by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      It is severely disappointing when the discussion around something turns out to be highly misleading based on a simple wikipedia search:

      2-Butoxyethanol has a low acute toxicity, with LD50 of 2.5 g/kg in rats.[3] Laboratory tests by the U. S. National Toxicology Program have shown that only sustained exposure to high concentrations (100-500 ppm) of 2-butoxyethanol can cause adrenal tumors in animals.

    3. Re:Carcinogenic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is severely disappointing when the discussion around something turns out to be highly misleading based on a simple wikipedia search:

      2-Butoxyethanol has a low acute toxicity, with LD50 of 2.5 g/kg in rats.[3] Laboratory tests by the U. S. National Toxicology Program have shown that only sustained exposure to high concentrations (100-500 ppm) of 2-butoxyethanol can cause adrenal tumors in animals.

      LordLimeCat 1103839 seems to be a shill on this, as he posts numerous half truths on this topic, not just today but a number of times.

      Using his own quote, "high concentrations" is 100ppm, or 100/1000000, or 1/10000, or 0.01% for "sustained exposure". I'm pretty sure anything in your water supply is going to be "sustained exposure". I certainly think you deserve cash payment for the risks you now bear when someone poisons your water. There's also the fact that rats live in sewers, which are generally not good for humans, which means that what kills humans may not kill rats.
      I look forward to LordLimeCat voluntarily moving to a poisoned area and drinking that frack water, bathing in the coal ash pond spills and putting his flesh where his words are.

      Of course maybe he is a true believer, as Thomas Midgley was:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley,_Jr
      On October 30, 1924, Midgley participated in a press conference to demonstrate the apparent safety of TEL. In this demonstration, he poured TEL over his hands, then placed a bottle of the chemical under his nose and inhaled its vapor for sixty seconds, declaring that he could do this every day without succumbing to any problems whatsoever.[5][8] However, the State of New Jersey ordered the Bayway plant to be closed a few days later, and Jersey Standard was forbidden to manufacture TEL there again without state permission. Midgley would later have to take leave of absence from work after being diagnosed with lead poisoning.[9]

    4. Re:Carcinogenic by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Thats some good sleuthing on me being a shill, with one problem: that quote was pulled verbatim from wikipedia.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2...

      It also sources the National Library of Medicine, among a number of other fairly reputable bodies. The statement you seem to have issues with-- the ppm one-- is sourced here:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2...

      Great to see the knives come out when someone throws out publicly available research tho.

  27. Exxon Mobil CEO: No fracking near my backyard by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Exxon Mobil CEO: No fracking near my backyard

    Exxon Mobil's CEO has joined a lawsuit to stop construction of a water tower near his home that would be used to in the fracking process to drill for oil...

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2014/02/22/exxon-mobil-tillerson-ceo-fracking/5726603/

    1. Re:Exxon Mobil CEO: No fracking near my backyard by bobbied · · Score: 1

      Here we go again.. The guy was opposed to the WATER TOWER being built and spoiling his view. His argument was about the TRAFFIC that fracking would produce and not an opposition to the practice. He was opposed to the water tower and the traffic it would produce ruining his peaceful backyard. He was saying build the tower lower or some other place, which doesn't have anything directly to do with fracking.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    2. Re:Exxon Mobil CEO: No fracking near my backyard by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why is his backyard more important and more worthy of protection than someone else's?

    3. Re:Exxon Mobil CEO: No fracking near my backyard by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If he doesn't like it, he can move.

    4. Re:Exxon Mobil CEO: No fracking near my backyard by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      It's no more valuable then the view from the Kennedy compound. (They sued to stop wind turbines from 'ruining' their views).

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  28. Re:Seems the "industry" may be correct about this by Eravnrekaree · · Score: 3, Informative

    Many of the concerns about the safety of fracking relate to the drill shaft and riser pipe that comes up from the pay dirt, through the groundwater supplies, to the surface. When the riser pipe is installed, a drill shaft is made and the pipe is inserted into it, there is a space between the pipe and the wall of the drill shaft that is supposed to be filled in with cement. If the cement flow is blocked for whatever reason, the annular space may not be filled in, you will end up with an open channel that could run for thousands of feet between the pay dirt and the groundwater supply. Since you cant really see if the cemented went okay, its many thousands of feet underground, its hard to tell if this is happening. When the high pressure drilling fluids are injected, they would easily flow right up that channel into the groundwater supply. They say in the propoganda that there is many thousands of feet of impermeable rock between the pay dirt layer and the groundwater, but this doesnt mean much as you just drilled a hole through it all.

  29. The only bias in the author on Slashdot by shellster_dude · · Score: 1

    The "inside the beltway mouthpiece" as this Slashdot article, so biasedly calls the article refuting the evidence, is full of actual, real counter arguments. The original study is horribly flawed in its conclusions. I know that the majority of Slashdotters have written off fracking as very dangerous, but this may be a new low in terms of biased reporting and abject failure of critical thinking. The original study found one chemical that is used in fracking, in extremely tiny amounts in drinking water. That same chemical is present in tons of everyday products (as others in this thread have mentioned). What is decidedly lacking from the drinking water samples is most of the other chemicals also present in fracking, which would seem to indicate that the source of contamination is not likely fracking at all.

    1. Re:The only bias in the author on Slashdot by Ranbot · · Score: 1

      The original slashdot summary is terrible. No wonder that the resulting "discussion" is equally terrible. There's a scant few posts in here that say anything intelligent with regards to science on the subject, but they are drowned out by the noise.

  30. Some perspective on a one-sided summary by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

    Before reading any further, I thought it would be a good idea to see what 2-butoxyethanol was. According to wikipedia, in addition to fracking...

    2-Butoxyethanol is a solvent for paints and surface coatings, as well as cleaning products and inks. Products that contain 2-butoxyethanol include acrylic resin formulations, asphalt release agents, firefighting foam, leather protectors, oil spill dispersants, degreaser applications, photographic strip solutions, whiteboard cleaners, liquid soaps, cosmetics, dry cleaning solutions, lacquers, varnishes, herbicides, latex paints, enamels, printing paste, and varnish removers, and silicone caulk. Products containing this compound are commonly found at construction sites, automobile repair shops, print shops, and facilities that produce sterilizing and cleaning products. It is the main ingredient of many home, commercial and industrial cleaning solutions. Since the molecule has both non-polar and polar ends, butoxyethanol is useful for removing both polar and non-polar substances, like grease and oils. It is also approved by the U.S. FDA to be used as direct and indirect food additives, which include antimicrobial agents, defoamers, stabilizers, and adhesives

    Probably worth knowing before getting into a debate on whether it is fracking's fault, or how its poisoning us (from that last sentence: probably not).

  31. Simple Demand. by jellomizer · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The communities are just following the stupidity of the political view points.
    Can we frack in your community? Sure... However we want our water quality (including well water, checked once a month at your expense, for as long as the pumps are active and 10 years after. (This is relatively inexpensive demand). If there is a problem with water quality that has changed sense fracking. Then you need to supply us with clean water for 150 year or until the water quality returns.

    If your method is as safe and clean as you state, then you shouldn't have to worry about it.

       

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    1. Re:Simple Demand. by pastafazou · · Score: 1

      That would be far too logical of a solution...government regulations don't work like that.

    2. Re:Simple Demand. by John_Sauter · · Score: 1

      ... However we want our water quality (including well water, checked once a month at your expense, for as long as the pumps are active and 10 years after....

      I would prefer that the water quality be checked at my expense. I wouldn't want the potential polluter to use his "in house" water testing facility, which might be biased. If my tester shows there is a problem, I'll send part of the sample to the potential polluter for verification, but if they balk because their numbers don't agree with the numbers from my chosen lab (which I will provide) it's lawsuit time.

    3. Re:Simple Demand. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And shortly after the water quality starts to go down and the major extraction has finished up. All of a sudden the company that signed the contract goes bankrupt and any signed contracts are worth exactly nothing.

    4. Re:Simple Demand. by Ranbot · · Score: 1

      ...I wouldn't want the potential polluter to use his "in house" water testing facility, which might be biased. If my tester shows there is a problem, I'll send part of the sample to the potential polluter for verification, but if they balk because their numbers don't agree with the numbers from my chosen lab (which I will provide) it's lawsuit time.

      I'm an environmental consultant and you have a few wrong ideas here. FWIW, I don't personally work for any O/G companies.

      1) There is a specific process to collect an accurate sample from a well. It's not terribly complicated and anyone with enough sense to follow a basic cookbook recipe can do it, but unfortunately companies can't trust all homeowners to follow those directions, so understandably they hire contractors to do the sampling for them.

      2) Samples are not analyzed by an "in-house" lab. Any sample intended to hold any weight in court will be analyzed by an independent lab certified for the compounds they report. To obtain their certification, labs have to empirically prove they meet analytical standards set by the state, and/or National Environmental Laboratory Accreditation Program (NELAP, which has the same standards as the USEPA).

      3) There is a very detailed discoverable paper trail built in to every single analysis an accredited lab performs. If a lab was caught tampering with results to favor a client they would lose their certification instantly, and with it ALL of the work for ALL clients, not just the O/G client, would cease immediately...lights-out, go home, call the bankruptcy lawyers, Go To Jail, Do Not Collect $200. I can't stress enough that the risks for laboratories are simply too high.

      Anyone can independently sample their own water of course. Honestly, more homeowners with wells probably should be sampling their water, regardless of whether there's any drilling in your area.

    5. Re:Simple Demand. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The communities are just following the stupidity of the political view points.
      Can we frack in your community? Sure... However we want our water quality (including well water, checked once a month at your expense, for as long as the pumps are active and 10 years after. (This is relatively inexpensive demand). If there is a problem with water quality that has changed sense fracking. Then you need to supply us with clean water for 150 year or until the water quality returns.

      If your method is as safe and clean as you state, then you shouldn't have to worry about it.

       

      Agreed! ...time passes...
      Site becomes unprofitable due to massive leak, lack of easy access fuel, or the slow creep of miasma finally turns the whole thing to crap.
      SHELL COMPANYXP7938 declared bankruptcy today... (See also "Freedom Industries" from last year's news.)
      A derelict, bankrupt entity now owes you water. Good luck collecting before you die from cancer from your once pristine well water.

    6. Re:Simple Demand. by John_Sauter · · Score: 1

      I don't think I expressed myself well. My concern was that a potential polluter would not pay for an accredited lab to do the tests, but would just claim that there was no problem. By collecting the water myself, using the basic cookbook recipe, and sending it to an accredited lab of my choice, I would feel more confident in the report that there was no pollution.

      I wasn't aware of the paper trail or the consequences of faking it. That means I don't need to be concerned that the potential polluter will simply dismiss the lab findings, forcing me to go to court. Of course, there is always the possibility that I screwed up the collection process, so I wouldn't mind a re-test, but I would insist that the collection be done under my supervision (so I can be sure the water being tested actually came from my well) and that the testing be done by a accredited lab.

      I have a well which has provided me drinking water faithfully since 1969. Every few years I follow the cookbook recipe to collect tap water and send it to a local lab that I have learned to trust. So far, there has been no pollution.

    7. Re:Simple Demand. by Ranbot · · Score: 1

      You seem to have have fewer misconceptions than I thought at first. I'm glad you sample your well, it's alarming to me how many people do not. Personally, I think sampling your well water regularly not only protects yourself, but possibly the entire community around you.... but I digress...

      Your concern that polluter would not pay for an accredited lab is probably unfounded though. The cost of analysis for an accredited vs non-accredited lab is not that much, but more importantly if a case were to go to court, any non-accredited laboratory sample results would immediately be tossed out of evidence without a second chance. That's about the easiest thing any environmental attorney can do in a case. A deep-pocketed O/G company isn't going to skimp a few bucks on analysis for a non-accredited lab with so much potential risk about.

      That being said things can go wrong when sampling wells and mistakes can happen, but it's relatively rare. Independent verification or duplicate sampling is always a good idea. Obviously it costs more and would be out of the homeowner's pocket, but if you're willing to do it definitely puts you a stronger position to demand more action if something is awry.

    8. Re:Simple Demand. by John_Sauter · · Score: 1

      ...Your concern that polluter would not pay for an accredited lab is probably unfounded though. The cost of analysis for an accredited vs non-accredited lab is not that much, but more importantly if a case were to go to court, any non-accredited laboratory sample results would immediately be tossed out of evidence without a second chance.

      My concern was not that the potential polluter would use a non-accredited lab, but that he wouldn't do any testing at all: just discard the samples and claim that there was no problem. I suppose I could deal with that possibility by demanding the analysis paperwork, but if I get stonewalled on my request, I have to have the testing done myself anyway. It seems simpler to just do it myself from the beginning. Am I being too distrustful?

    9. Re:Simple Demand. by Ranbot · · Score: 1

      My concern was not that the potential polluter would use a non-accredited lab, but that he wouldn't do any testing at all: just discard the samples and claim that there was no problem. I suppose I could deal with that possibility by demanding the analysis paperwork, but if I get stonewalled on my request, I have to have the testing done myself anyway. It seems simpler to just do it myself from the beginning. Am I being too distrustful?

      I think that's a little too distrustful, because ultimately the O/G company wants evidence that is 100% acceptable to a court of law. Anything, including inaction, which can't stand up to legal scrutiny isn't worth a dime to them. If there was any question about a sample collected, or question whether or not they should sample at all, they would probably err on the side of resampling/sampling just to legally cover their ass. Besides, the cost to sample a homeowners well for an O/G company is so cheap it's not worth the risk not to do it. If I had to guess at costs for sampling, lab analysis, and a letter report back to the home owner, it's probably less than $500 per household well. That's pocket-change to them...honestly.

    10. Re:Simple Demand. by beastofburdon · · Score: 1

      "Am I being too distrustful?"

      When it comes to corporations and politicians there is no such thing as too distrustful.

    11. Re:Simple Demand. by John_Sauter · · Score: 1

      That is good to hear, and it does sound like I am being too distrustful, but here is my nightmare:

      A company is founded by engineers, and builds up a base of loyal customers because they do their research, carefully assess risks, honestly estimate costs, and generally do a good job. They develop a reputation for excellence in their field. However, with the passage of time the founders retire and the sales and marketing people gradually begin to take control. The engineering department is considered just another cost center—it is starved of resources and does not have the ear of top management. The legal department is expected to get the necessary permits, and blamed if work has to stop because some stupid government rule is getting in the way of earning revenue. Top management cares only about profits, and middle management cares only about this quarter's numbers. New product development is limited to safe extensions of what the company is already doing successfully.

      In this environment it is easy to imagine some middle manager, desperate to make his numbers, who decides that analyzing homeowner's wells is an unnecessary expense. When testing started the company informed the homeowners that they will be contacted if there is a problem with their well water, and if they do not hear from the company they can be assured that their water is good. Our middle manager doesn't renew the contract with the testing company, saving perhaps $100 per year per homeowner. Sampling stops, water testing stops, the manager has better expense numbers, homeowners are not inconvenienced by triennial visits from the water collection people, everyone wins.

      Even people who are concerned about the quality of their well water might not notice that no sample was taken in the year it was expected. A letter to the company might even result in a carefully-worded response designed to be reassuring while promising nothing.

      Of course, if a well pollution problem is eventually discovered the whole scheme blows up, but in the meantime my family has been poisoned.

    12. Re:Simple Demand. by Ranbot · · Score: 1

      There's always sampling yourself then, regardless of what the O/G comany or their engineer does. It's not a huge cost if that's what you need for peace of mind. If anything is awry showing them your data would get their full attention really quick.

      People should be sampling their wells regularly anyway, regardless of surrounding drilling activity. Honestly, if there was a gas station, dry cleaner, or industrial park nearby or uphill from my house, that would concern me more than contamination from fracking. There are even a lot of naturally-occuring metals (arsenic, barium, berylium are some of the more common ones) which can foul water and require a home filtration/treatment system

    13. Re:Simple Demand. by John_Sauter · · Score: 1

      If you have a deep well, the source of pollution doesn't have to be uphill from you.

  32. Re: 2-Butoxyethanol is a common household chemical by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

    Its a food additive, too, so that may actually not be too bad.

    Got to love how many people took the "media hysterics" bait, though.

  33. Mmm, Delicious, Delicious Chemicals! by Greyfox · · Score: 2

    Why doesn't the industry just charge those people for the addition of chemicals to their water? Those people are getting those chemicals for free right now, and chemicals don't cost nothing! The industry should be billing everyone in that town for the chemicals they're currently getting for free!

    --

    I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

  34. fear mongering by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 0

    2BE is considered quite safe, otherwise it wouldn't be used in cosmetics:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2...

    There seems to be very little that's toxic in fracking fluid, in particular compared to what it is being pumped into. It's highly dilute too. A bigger concern should be drinking well contamination from hydrocarbons.

    You don't have an automatic right to have a functioning drinking water well on your property; numerous natural contaminants, water rights, mineral rights, utility regulations, etc. can all restrict that anyway.

    1. Re:fear mongering by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

      RTFA: "However, confidentiality requirements dictated by legal investigations, combined with the expedited rate of development and the limited funding for research, are substantial impediments to peer-reviewed research into environmental impacts." They are calling for a better understanding of the waste water management fo fracking fluids. Hardly fear mongering. But hey why don't drink the fracking fluids and tell us how safe it is. Moron.

    2. Re:fear mongering by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      2BE is considered quite safe, otherwise it wouldn't be used in cosmetics:

      I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this. I guess the question is, are you getting paid to tell this lie? Cosmetics are full of known toxics, just like perfumes.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re:fear mongering by Whorhay · · Score: 1

      "You don't have an automatic right to have a functioning drinking water well on your property; numerous natural contaminants, water rights, mineral rights, utility regulations, etc. can all restrict that anyway."

      You are correct that many things can affect your property rights. That said if you own property and have not sold or leased any of those rights then you certainly do have grounds to hold someone else liable for damaging your property, and a well can be part of that property. It isn't like this is untested legal ground here, do some reading about Davey Compressor Co. v. City of Delray Beach or Wood v. Picillo.

    4. Re:fear mongering by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      That said if you own property and have not sold or leased any of those rights then you certainly do have grounds to hold someone else liable for damaging your property, and a well can be part of that property.

      (1) That is why I said numerous natural contaminants, water rights, mineral rights, utility regulations, etc. can all restrict that anyway.

      (2) In this case, the presence of miniscule amounts of a substance that is harmless in much higher concentrations cannot be construed as "damage", in particular since its origin can't even be tied to the fracking.

      (3) Many of the people who scream bloody murder over this kind of contamination have absolutely no problem "destroying" my well by mandating that I buy water from the city, so there is a great deal of hypocrisy in all of this.

    5. Re:fear mongering by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this. I guess the question is, are you getting paid to tell this lie? Cosmetics are full of known toxics, just like perfumes.

      Why don't you just read the f*cking article? You know, the blue underlined thingy in the message you responded to? It's called a "hyperlink". Have you heard of it?

    6. Re:fear mongering by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      They are calling for a better understanding of the waste water management fo fracking fluids.

      "We can't show that there is anything wrong. And there are no plausible health effects. But, hey, if you give us a lot more money to study is, maybe we can find something"

      But hey why don't drink the fracking fluids and tell us how safe it is.

      People have already done it: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

      The fracking fluid injected into the ground is already pretty harmless, and the miniscule dilutions that may reach the water table have no effect at all.

      Moron.

      Hint: your personal signature goes below the double line.

    7. Re:fear mongering by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Why don't you just read the f*cking article? You know, the blue underlined thingy in the message you responded to? It's called a "hyperlink". Have you heard of it?

      Yeah, that's how I found out that this stuff is a known carcinogen. Maybe you should try using google, have you heard of it? Because when you just swallow the first story you read, you're kind of a fucking moron. Do you fellate every corporation that promises you a better tomorrow?

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    8. Re:fear mongering by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that's how I found out that this stuff is a known carcinogen. Maybe you should try using google, have you heard of it?

      Yes, it's a known carcinogen in rodents and at high concentrations. This may be of concern for you, given your mouse brain, but it doesn't apply to humans: "OSHA does not regulate 2-butoxyethanol as a carcinogen."

      Because when you just swallow the first story you read, you're kind of a fucking moron. Do you fellate every corporation that promises you a better tomorrow?

      I fellate whoever I want, and that's none of your business. Are you just a homophobic jerk that you have a problem with that?

      As for corporations, I like cheap energy, energy independence, and low carbon emissions, all of which fracking helps with.

  35. Nearly 100% fracking chemical by Culture20 · · Score: 1

    The "water" was found to consist of nearly 100% of the fracking material, dihydrogen monoxide.

  36. Two Way Street by sycodon · · Score: 1

    Odds are you will see this report used in some anti-fracking publication as a reason to completely ban fracking.

    So, extremism goes both ways.

    --
    When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    1. Re:Two Way Street by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

      Read up
      From the comments you would think the gas companies are the Fourth Reich.

  37. Re: 2-Butoxyethanol is a common household chemical by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 2

    What's their evidence it came from fracking and not, say Windex?

    Interesting list of uses from wkpda;

    2-Butoxyethanol is a solvent for paints and surface coatings, as well as cleaning products and inks. Products that contain 2-butoxyethanol include acrylic resin formulations, asphalt release agents, firefighting foam, leather protectors, oil spill dispersants, degreaser applications, photographic strip solutions, whiteboard cleaners, liquid soaps, cosmetics, dry cleaning solutions, lacquers, varnishes, herbicides, latex paints, enamels, printing paste, and varnish removers, and silicone caulk. Products containing this compound are commonly found at construction sites, automobile repair shops, print shops, and facilities that produce sterilizing and cleaning products. It is the main ingredient of many home, commercial and industrial cleaning solutions. Since the molecule has both non-polar and polar ends, butoxyethanol is useful for removing both polar and non-polar substances, like grease and oils. It is also approved by the U.S. FDA to be used as direct and indirect food additives, which include antimicrobial agents, defoamers, stabilizers, and adhesives.[6]

    And the environmental impact;

    2-Butoxyethanol usually decomposes in the presence of air within a few days by reacting with oxygen radicals.[12] It has not been identified as a major environmental contaminant, nor is it known to bio-accumulate.[13] 2-Butoxyethanol biodegrades in soils and water, with a half life of 1–4 weeks in aquatic environments.[6]

  38. Make the CEO's family drink it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Judge should decree that. If it is safe, then they will have no problems doing it.

  39. Re: 2-Butoxyethanol is a common household chemical by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You're right, so I hope you personally don't put any of those nasty chemicals down the drain. Otherwise you're just as bad as they are! How dare you clean your toilet!

  40. I wouldn't worry about it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wouldn't worry about it. We have need of oil and gas.

  41. Conflict Of Interest? Nah... by RavenousRhesus · · Score: 1

    According to source in post and cross-referencing with member lists from the Marcellus Shale Coalition, five of the funders of Energy In Depth are board members on MSC while two others are associate members. That's an undeniable 7 of the listed 15 funders. Also, there is undoubtedly a large overlap and many relationships built amongst the funding companies through the even just the executive board of MSC, let alone the companies at large.

  42. Why isn't the Water Dept filtering the water? by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

    How come the water plants aren't able to filter these fracking chemicals out of the water before sending it to the homes like they filter out everything else?

    --
    Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    1. Re:Why isn't the Water Dept filtering the water? by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      The reason these chemicals are expensive to dispose of is that they are difficult to destroy by any means other than sweet, cleansing flame — and a whole hell of a lot of it. Throwing it in your campfire won't do it. Anything that can't be gotten out of your water by relatively simple means isn't filtered out by your municipal water department.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:Why isn't the Water Dept filtering the water? by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      I'm sure the bottled water industry doesn't mind all this contamination in your tap water. Making it drinkable is unfair competition.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    3. Re:Why isn't the Water Dept filtering the water? by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      In this case, it is people with wells on their properties.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    4. Re: Why isn't the Water Dept filtering the water? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The chemicals are likely being picked up via leaky pipes. The water department probably is shipping clean water but it isn't getting to the taps clean.

    5. Re:Why isn't the Water Dept filtering the water? by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      In this case, it is people with wells on their properties.

      People still do water that way...wells on their property??

      If so...I'd guess it would have to be a very small minority these days, eh?

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    6. Re:Why isn't the Water Dept filtering the water? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      well you'd be guessing wrong

    7. Re:Why isn't the Water Dept filtering the water? by cwsumner · · Score: 1

      People still do water that way...wells on their property??

      If so...I'd guess it would have to be a very small minority these days, eh?

      Don't be silly. Just because everyone that you know lives in a big city, does not mean that everyone does, or even wants to.

      Where I live, only the people in the middle of town have "city water". All else have wells and septic tanks. In other places known as "green living". 8-)
      Some are pretty high-tech, too.

      Of course, they don't have to pay as much to the local government. But have you seen how much repairing a septic tank costs? Ick!!
      I was glad to get a house in town...

  43. Big Cancer loves this by Oflife · · Score: 1

    A standout scene from Breaking Bad was when Walt writes out his first (huge) check/cheque for his chemo. This single scene from so many memorable ones across that incredible series summed up what is wrong with contemporary society. We are powerless ants subservient to corporations with as much compassion and sense of right and wrong as a hungry wolf. To solve all this, we need to completely disconnect from the grid. Make our own electricity (with help from Tesla Energy), collect our own water from rain - and filter it, and use architectural concepts that ensure natural cooling and warming, with clever use of large windows and airflow. Google 'Earthships' to see some amazing sustainable living homes of this type in the USA. The number one way to destroy an evil industry legally is to starve it of money, so don't spend money on energy you don't make yourself!

  44. Quick summary of the papers involved here. by hey! · · Score: 5, Informative

    The summary conflates two papers, a review paper in Science which summarizes the state of knowledge about fracking the Marcellus Shale (Vidic et al. 2013), and a study of an individual incident published this month in PNAS in which researcher purport to have found a single instance of minor contamination from a fracking well (Llewellyn et al. 2015). Neither paper is particularly damning or inflammatory, so at first blush it's not immediately obvious why the fracking PR flacks have gone to DEFCON 3 on this. The key is to read the review paper first. This is almost always the best way to start because review papers are supposed to give a full and balanced overview of the current state of scientific knowledge on a topic. TL;DR, I know, but stick with me for a few paragraphs and I think I can make the problem clear.

    Vidic paints a rather favorable picture of the fracking industry's response to problems that have arisen during the fracking boom in the Marcellus shale. It absolves them of any responsibility for the infamous "burning tapwater" we've all seen in Youtube videos. It states they have been quick to respond to wastewater leaks and well blowouts before contamination could spread. It says the industry has redesigned wells in response to concerns that they might leak fracking water as they pass through the aquifer. And it says that fracking water that returns to the surface ("flowback") is treated and re-used for more fracking -- an expensive environmental "best practice".

    Vidic does raise some important concerns, however, and the most important is this. At present recycling flowback into more fracking water is practical because production is booming. But at some point production will level off and begin to decline, and when that happens the industry will be producing more flowback than it can use economically. In Texas, where fracking was pioneered, flowback was disposed of in deep wells -- a process not without its drawbacks, but better than leaving the contaminated water on the surface. Pennsylvania doesn't have enough disposal capacity to handle today's flowback, which helps make recycling fracking water attractive at the present time.

    We now have enough context to understand Llewellyn, and why Llewellyn is so upsetting to the industry. Llewellyn's paper documents a single instance of minor contamination which matched the chemical fingerprint of flowback from a nearby well. This contamination was well below a level that would be cause for any concern. Llewellyn concludes the most likely cause was a small spill from the flowback holding pit, although it can't rule out the possibility that the contamination occurred inside the well. Taken with the picture Vidic paints of an industry that is generally on top of stuff like this, the occurrence of a single mishap with negligible consequences is hardly damning. So why has the fracking industry unleashed its flying PR monkeys on this?

    Because the fracking industry apparently has made no plans for when the day comes it can no longer recycle all the flowback it uses, and it doesn't want the public to think about that.

    It would be sensible for them to prepare for the flowback problem now on the upswing of the boom, for the same reason the industry has been able to be so responsive to date: these are good times for the industry in the Marcellus Shale. They're flush. Although preparing for the problem now would be expensive, it wouldn't slow the boom appreciably, and it would add jobs. But... if the industry can kick the flowback can far enough down the road, we'll have to ask it to fix the problem while production and probably the regional economy is in decline. Doing something about the problem then will cost jobs and require money nobody will have.

    So if the industry isn't forced to do something about the looming problem soon, it will become politically if not financially impossible to make them do that ever. That's why the industry is allergic to the very mention that surfa

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  45. Re:Seems the "industry" may be correct about this by jittles · · Score: 1

    Many of the concerns about the safety of fracking relate to the drill shaft and riser pipe that comes up from the pay dirt, through the groundwater supplies, to the surface. When the riser pipe is installed, a drill shaft is made and the pipe is inserted into it, there is a space between the pipe and the wall of the drill shaft that is supposed to be filled in with cement. If the cement flow is blocked for whatever reason, the annular space may not be filled in, you will end up with an open channel that could run for thousands of feet between the pay dirt and the groundwater supply. Since you cant really see if the cemented went okay, its many thousands of feet underground, its hard to tell if this is happening. When the high pressure drilling fluids are injected, they would easily flow right up that channel into the groundwater supply. They say in the propoganda that there is many thousands of feet of impermeable rock between the pay dirt layer and the groundwater, but this doesnt mean much as you just drilled a hole through it all.

    They know the outer diameter of the hole they drilled, correct? They know the inner diameter of the pipe they are placing in the hole, correct? So they should know exactly how much cement is required to fill the hole, correct? Therefore, they should not need to be able to see into the hole at all. They just need to know whether or not the amount of cement poured matches their expectation +/- some margin of error.

  46. It's the ethanol, motly, perhaps. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I doubt that traces of this compound in tap water is as harmful as ordinary consumption of ethanol. But I would not want pregnant women consuming alcohol...or that tap water.

  47. 2-butoxyethanol by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Toxicity of 2-butoxyethanol is very low, and it biodegrades. Trace amounts simply are not hazardous. The material is commonly used in paints and it is considered a danger, but only because of its shipping flammability. It is not considered toxic. I just added the Saftey datasheet information to our database last week. It simply is not a danger, and it has a huge number of other possible sources rather than fracking. Someone illegally disposing water base paint for instance.

  48. Generally safe. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wonder how many Marcellus Shale Gas industry shills are around here.

    1. Re:Generally safe. by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Clearly the FDA are shills to, as is Wikipedia for noting that this chemical is everywhere. Shills! Shills! Everywhere!

  49. That's not what he said. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Advocates of responsible business are very different from "the voices of greed and avarice" that currently dominate our legislative branch. If he was one of them he'd say something like "regulation would just ruin everything." But he did not.

    Until nuclear fusion becomes available, there is no ideal source of energy. Legislating some responsibility in the pursuit of "improved but still not optimal" energy sources seems pretty reasonable.

  50. Re:Seems the "industry" may be correct about this by Ranbot · · Score: 1

    I'm not an apologist for the oil industry and I wouldn't want to have any of these wells near my place but I did grow up in it. It seems to me extremely more likely that the issue isn't the process of fracking but ...2) some other source of contamination completely unrelated to drilling which given their measurement of the concentration at parts per trillion seems likely..

    If you read the rebuttal article that the Slashdot summary calls "beltway inside mouthpieces" that's exactly what it is. The rebuttal might be unnecessarily combative, but the points it makes are still valid.

  51. Did any Idiot read the conflict of interest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    At the bottom in small writing there is a conflict of interest statement.

    "Conflict of interest statement: G.T.L. and Appalachia Consulting provided litigation support and environmental consulting services to the impacted households. "

    So the authors are blowing it out of proportion to help there clients.

    The part's per trillion means it's not harmful.

    Way to get fooled by media drumming up eco-loon crap!!!!

  52. Re:Seems the "industry" may be correct about this by metallurge · · Score: 1

    Since you cant really see if the cemented went okay, its many thousands of feet underground, its hard to tell if this is happening. When the high pressure drilling fluids are injected, they would easily flow right up that channel into the groundwater supply.

    Actually, there is technology for this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cement_bond_log

    Since there is an economic incentive for the petroleum company to apply all that pressure and frac fluids ($$$ to the tune of 1/4 to 2/3 of the total cost of drilling the well) only to the hopefully-producing zone and nowhere else, you can rely on the cementing operations to be ordinarily done right, and then verified prior to frac-ing. Which isn't to say that things don't sometimes go wrong with cementing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepwater_Horizon_oil_spill

    Note that in that well, I doubt that fracturing was even contemplated, since the reservoir was clearly capable of significant production without aid.

    They say in the propoganda that there is many thousands of feet of impermeable rock between the pay dirt layer and the groundwater, but this doesnt mean much as you just drilled a hole through it all.

    "Dirt" isn't the best choice of words to describe a rock formation which requires fracturing to liberate economic amounts of hydrocarbons. But, that said, we clearly know that ground water eventually seeps down to a certain depth when it encounters something that stops it and allows it to accumulate. The reverse is true of the natural gas trapped down below. It wants to escape upward. Something stops it. So the rock itself clearly is impermeable. During drilling, the fluid (drilling mud) is designed to be viscous and heavy enough to move the rock cuttings back to the surface and protect the rock formation itself. Again, there is an economic incentive to get this right, as you don't want to either have a blowout during drilling, if the mud is too light, or for the mud to be so heavy that it forces itself out into the formations you're drilling through, causing loss of circulation of the cuttings. Best practices require drilling an oversize hole with just water as the fluid down below the bottom of potential fresh water aquifer, then setting an initial "surface casing" and cementing that alone in order to protect the fresh water, before proceeding drilling within that casing down to the (much) deeper productive zones. Incidentally, that surface casing is also what gives you the opportunity to place a "blowout preventer (BOP)" in case something goes badly wrong during drilling. If you didn't have the surface casing, you'd have nothing to attach the BOP to--nothing to allow you to seal off the well in case of major problems.