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Harvard Hit With Racial Bias Complaint
An anonymous reader writes: A coalition of 64 organizations filed a complaint against Harvard on Friday alleging the university discriminates against Asian-American applicants hoping to attend classes there. "Many studies have indicated that Harvard University has been engaged in systemic and continuous discrimination against Asian-Americans during its very subjective 'Holistic' college admissions process." One such study shows Asian-Americans had to score an average of 140 points higher than white students on their SAT test to have an equal chance of getting in. The complaint seeks a federal investigation and demands Harvard "immediately cease and desist from using stereotypes, racial biases and other discriminatory means in evaluating Asian-American applicants."
Isn't racial discrimination the definition of affirmative action? I'm not sure what makes them think they have any actionable complaints against the university.
The corner of a round room
It's because they can't say "Pahk the Cah At Hahvad Yahd".
"The complaint seeks a federal investigation and demands Harvard "immediately cease and desist from using stereotypes, racial biases and other discriminatory means in evaluating Asian-American applicants.""
OR... we could just evaluate students on their merits, rather than their skin color. Remove the race/ethnicity indicators from the application forms altogether and don't make them a factor during interviews.
while(1) attack(People.Sandy);
I'm 100% against using race or gender as a first pass system for sorting HOWEVER, it's a private school, they can accept who ever they want to. If the government was flipping the bill for post secondary education then the story would be different but the second you are funded by the students, then you can the decision about which students you want to let in . If you really want to fix this issue, you need to conceil the identity of the student down to a numeric identifier.
He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword.
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
I'm just trying to keep track since first they weren't white, then they were white when everyone wanted to attack the tech industry and particularly google for being "too white", and now apparently they're not white again. Is there a newsletter I can subscribe to? Maybe a calendar or twitter feed that keeps us all up to date on who's "white" or not today?
A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
According to Hillel (http://www.hillel.org), Jews are 25% of the undergrads, and 63% of graduate students.
It's not whites crowding out qualified Asian-Americans, it's Jews.
Someone is about to learn about Simpson's paradox: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...
Yes, it's news. Yes, it's probably important. But WHY IN THE HELL is it on Slashdot? It's crap like this that keep my away.
If there are racist recruiters, there should be little difficulty tracking them down and firing them.
However, if there is racism, it is presumably systemic bias that is inadvertent and unconscious and there is no single person who is actually acting in a prejudiced way. Telling them 'cease and desist' is ineffective.
It's quite conceivable that there is discrimination that is not based on race but only loosely correlated with it, perhaps actually due to income, culture, or command of English, which might or might not be part of a legitimate application process.
Hopefully Harvard has a few people with knowledge of statistics to figure it out.
I see the problem: they are thinner on average than other ethnic groups and therefore perform weaker at football. As a result they cannot enter University college.
Acceptance to universities should not be judged on anything but scholastic merit. I would even argue against using sports as a basis for acceptance, but we know that will never happen.
We were all warned a long time ago that MS products sucked, remember the Magic 8 Ball said, "Outlook not so good"
and damned if you don't There are only so many seats. They either try to distribute those as evenly as they can ( affirmative action ), or they fill it up with just the best candidates ( read that, test scores ) where they later catch nothing but hell because their student population isn't diverse enough. :|
So they get hit with discrimination claims either way. Just from different groups.
What this really shows is that not all colleges are equal. A Law degree from X is not the same as a Law degree from Y.
So the folks complaining about discrimination are themselves enabling it, just later on down the road.
In case I lost you with that last sentence here's how I explain it.
Folks go to the Ivy League schools why ?
Because they know top tier employers will choose students from those schools over other qualified candidates who didn't go to an Ivy League school.
Two perfect candidates for the job, one with Ivy League credentials, one without. Who do you think will get picked up ? :|
( and everyone knows it, thus the competition to get in )
While not race based, it's still discrimination based on school reputation. Were all schools funded and staffed equally, this becomes a non-issue.
Harvard would rather not have 1500 spots of every 1600 member freshman class be the sons and daughters of mainland Chinese billionaires, that's why.
If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
Harvard does give extra credit for children of Harvard graduates and they surely are also appreciative of wealthy graduates who donate large sums who have sons and daughters seeking admission. Also athletes may get some extra consideration and some areas of the world emphasize sports other than what we play in America. Factors like that may well completely explain the apparent disparity in admissions. There is also the matter of comparing grades when the quality of high schools in foreign nations may not be recognized or known. I would not want to be a lawyer attacking Harvard for discrimination based solely on the items in this complaint. I also wonder if Harvard reserves a certain number of seats for in state applicants.
An Asian-American argues in favor of admission policies that disadvantage Asian-Americans. Whether you agree, it's worth thinking about.
http://askakorean.blogspot.com...
A part of a college education can be meeting and interacting with people of different cultures and backgrounds. If a private school wants to have this type of culture they should be free to create it by whatever means they determine is best for their school. You have no right to attend the school.
Now if this was a public school they might have an argument.
I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
So the main complaint seems to be that admitted Asians have significantly higher test scores than their counterparts. This would be slam-dunk evidence if really good SAT scores were all it took to get into Harvard, but they aren't and never have been. They are going to have to go into a lot more in-depth with their analysis to prove their point.
Also, to echo a point made on Reddit, haven't we been saying for years that standardized test scores are not good indicators of performance? Why in this case are we suddenly acting like they are the only criteria that matter?
...One Wednesday last July, and I noticed something: a large percentage of the people on campus were Asian. I have no idea which were students and which were just other visitors, but on that day at least the campus teemed with Asians, many in large groups.
Social justice warriors, go ahead and hate white people and all that "colonialist," "imperialist" civilization has wrought. I saw our worthy successors that day in Cambridge, and when you try to take them on you will wish you still had our compliant legal system to use as your playground. Asians will build their bullet trains and their giant telescopes wherever they want to, totally ignoring whatever standards of political correctness you have been used to imposing on everyone else. Long may they rule.
That's what this is really all about, isn't it? That Latinos and Blacks should be present in higher numbers for social equality reasons?
Everyone deserves an equal chance, but it happens that the Asian culture highly values education and family, and instills those values (Jewish culture is similar). It seems to work.
If Latinos and Blacks grow up in a culture that values these things to a lesser degree, they start off with a disadvantage. But giving them a free boost (artificially lowered admission standards via preference or however) doesn't seem right either (matter of opinion, that's my opinion), but more importantly, I don't think it's sustainable.
So what's the answer? I think as usual it's to work on the root cause. Make sure kids aren't disadvantaged by accident of birth. Now, that's a lofty aspiration, and very hard to accomplish. But in the end I think it's the only real and lasting answer.
Side note: I'm an MIT alum, graduated way back in 1970. At the time, MIT was trying to attract Black students who they thought could succeed. One of the administration's ideas was to guarantee a four-year full scholarship to such Black students.
Do you know who opposed that policy? The Black Student Union! The BSU said that help for the first year was a good thing, for the student to get started, but guaranteed help for four years sends the message that the Black student can't make it on his/her own, while other students can. My respect for the BSU was really, really high. They were straight shooters.
*All* Asians make up ~5.6% of the population of the United States, but they make up 20% of those admitted to Harvard. Discrimination?! https://college.harvard.edu/ad... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D...
I'm just floating a theory here, so please don't pounce all over me.
For hundreds of years, getting into the better jobs meant passing written exams in China. Thus, the population may have been genetically filtered (bred) to be better test takers.
Table-ized A.I.
They do not under perform because of race. They under perform because the schools are crap, they don't get funding, can't get new school books, can't get good teachers (well they get some, but not a uniformly higher level)
I just have to laugh when reading the crap that you have written!
I came from China, and when I landed on the US soil, I actually went to Chinatown to work (kitchen helper) because I was practically penny-LESS at that time
I did not go to school for at least 8 months and when I did, I went to a public school where the blacks were like 80% of the school population
Don't you tell me about broken school, lack of new books and all those shits, I have been through all that
And yet, I went to college on my own (without any help from anybody) and from there I move up my career ladder
Do I have to tell you that I didn't speak one word of English (nor understand anything) when I arrived at the US of A?
I just have to laugh at you guys regurgitating the same old SHIT every single time when AA has been questioned --- if an Asian kid like me could move up, why can't the Blacks/Hispanics?
And no, I didn't have my "tiger mom" with me --- I came to USA by my own, as a refugee, my family was still in China at that time
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
Where I was from it was 100% Asians
Where I am now it's a mix
Where I was in the HS it was 80% Blacks, less than 2% Asians
But when I get to the U the ones who can compete against me are the Whites
So don't gimme that " 95% Asian / 4.9% Caucasian " thing. You know it ain't true
It might probably be in the ratio of 30% Asian / 68% Caucasian / 2% others, but if that is what it is, I say let it be
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
I don't get why people are basically saying 'fuck you, tough shit'.
These are kids who worked their asses off to get into college and have to OUTPERFORM peers to to get into the same schools. This is not the case of an under qualified or underachieving person getting in simply because of their race (which I never liked), but getting pushed out even though THEY'RE BETTER CANDIDATES because of their race.
How does anyone think this is fair or just? Jesuz fuck people, imagine if that was your kid....
'The unexamined life is not worth living' - Socrates
However, if there is racism, it is presumably systemic bias that is inadvertent and unconscious and there is no single person who is actually acting in a prejudiced way. Telling them 'cease and desist' is ineffective.
Not necessarily. Admissions as a practical matter are often done in a whole-person type way which is nevertheless guided *Strongly* by what the people involved think the ideal class should look like demographically, including race.
Like when peaceful white protesters have had dogs and fire hoses set on them by all black police departments? When white families were denied access to housing in black neighborhoods? When job applicants were looked over simply because they had a white sounding name? When white kids were more likely to be suspended or expelled from school for the same offenses as black kids? When black felons were more likely to get a job offer than a white person with a clean record? How about when whites were directed toward subprime mortgages while black counterparts at the same credit rating were given better interest rates? When whites were given the death penalty at higher rates than blacks for the same offense? When white jail time in general was longer than blacks for the same offense? When unarmed, non-resisting whites are much more likely to be killed by police than blacks? You mean when whites are referred to as "thugs" in the media when black folks aren't?
You must mean that "reverse racism" since that has been the racism that black folks have been living through, but in reverse.
- I don't need to go outside, my CRT tan'll do me just fine.
Just don't (a) answer accurate about "race" or (b) don't ask about it.
Skin color is irrelevant. The overt racists who keep asking and caring about skin color should be shunned.
What is the cutoff for a "race"? With 23andme, AncestryDNA etc, it will show a lot of people who have traces of every race.
for math, reading and science, the top seven countries are:
Shanghai China
Singapore
Hong Kong China
Chinese Taipei
Korea
Macao China
Japan
The US is 36th.
Even Vietnam is higher than the US, at 17th place.
That is how both Canadian and American post-secondary education is set up to work. There is nothing below board about it, I think there are laws that demand they leave room for minorities like Africans, Native Americans, and Whites. I am pretty sure you would have to sue the government if you wanted this changed.
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
I understand the desire for students to want to get into Harvard. It's not like what they teach there is much different from what they teach anywhere else, academia being what it is. Harvard might have some ever-so-slightly better professors that other Ivy League colleges. Mostly the value of Harvard is in networking with professors and other students that will be the movers and shakers of the next generation of business and politics. That said, I think it would be just as well for a few wealthy Asian American tycoons to found their own college. If you can't join 'em, beat 'em.
That's the last time I run code posted in somebody's sig...
Unless they have a "smoking gun" the case is unlikely to succeed.
If only there was some sort of test that people could take to unearth their biases...
Oh, here are some! https://implicit.harvard.edu/i...
One or more of those words do not mean what you think they mean.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
It's just the exercise of power by the people in power. Humanity and empathy don't matter to them. The only fairness and justice they care about relates to events from 50-200 years ago, because their power stems from organizing against those old grievances. Fairness and justice here and now would limit their power, so they're eager to advocate unfair and unjust policies. That's who you're dealing with.
correction: "genetic influence", not "generic".
Table-ized A.I.
Someone who is really sure that they did it all without help and is a goddamn Heinleinian superman feels like I pissed in their Cheerios. You didn't build that bowl of cereal, either.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Why would my opinion change if whites were disadvantaged?
It's the same idea.
You assume racial bias in my comment. My arguments reference racial situations as they exist today, but swap the colors around and the argument is exactly the same.
America Should Stop Issuing Visas To Indians, The Most Racist People On Earth;
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...
https://petitions.whitehouse.g...
http://www.change.org/p/indepe...
Casteism
sincerely, Everyone-that-is-doing-fine.
Malcom Gladwell wrote about this identical issue in the New Yorker (http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2005/10/10/getting-in). The concepts applied especially to Jews, and to all the Ivy-League institutions. The problem the Ivys were addressing was that if they based their admissions criteria on grades and test scores alone, Harvard would be nearly all Jewish and Asian. But those students, even with their high scores, would not achieve in life any better, or even as well, as students selected in part based on subjective traits such as "manliness." The Ivys have perfected a system that identifies future high contributors to society, and convinces them to enroll at their institutions. That is one explanation of why if you are admitted to Harvard, it makes no difference to your future success whether you enroll: You have been identified as a future high achiever. (Apologies if this appears as a duplicat post -- I am new to posting on ./)
Interesting that in the "full" article the upset Asian aspirants to the sacred halls of Harvard proposed a new basis instead of race for entrance: income. Here is a more detailed account which doesn't leave out the most important aspects of this article: http://www.theguardian.com/edu...
I would like to say I'm surprised but the angry white libertarian bullshit seems to be exploding here. Any articles that deal with womens or minority issues immediately gets filled with dismissive crap. Some of the sexism pieces aren't great, but this is pretty much a "here is the stats, this is wrong" issue. It doesn't even necessarily mean an intentional bias, it may be they didn't know they were doing it but we have plenty of unintentional racial biases and thats where numbers like these are important, but most people here seem to just immediately rationalize them in a way that makes them feel better.
This isn't new. In the 20's and 30's, Jewish Americans were the up and coming academic top achievers, and based on merit would have become the largest ethnic fraction of the school. So, the administration found ways to get the kind of WASP-heavy demographic they wanted. Harvard (and the other Ivys) aren't just universities, they are positional goods and attendance is a form of signaling: our next class of business/political elites. To have a demographic that doesn't look like the parents of the current 1% (never mind 0.1%) would signal to them that the school was no longer providing the economic good they send their kids there for.
Luke, help me take this mask off
People need to stop complaining about having awesome lives of privilege. Seriously.
"It sucks to be rich because I don't like paying all these taxes." Then give away your money, asshole.
"It sucks to be the king because I have to make all these hard choices." Then abdicate, asshole.
"It sucks to be beautiful because everyone just looks at me." Try being ugly, asshole.
"It sucks to be Asian because it's harder for me to get into Harvard." It sucks harder to grow up outside of a high-achieving community, asshole.
Yes. There is racial bias against Asians for college admission, and to a lesser extent against white people too. Boo hoo for us, we'll have to be content with out leg up in everything else. Does it suck a little? Yeah, a little, and WAY LESS than the alternative, so stop complaining.
How long will we need AA? I'd estimate ten times longer than we had slavery, so something like a thousand years. Then we can get rid of it, that will be a great day.