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Software Devs Leaving Greece For Good, Finance Minister Resigns
New submitter TheHawke writes with this story from ZDNet about the exodus of software developers from Greece. "In the last three years, almost 80 percent of my friends, mostly developers, left Greece," software developer Panagiotis Kefalidis told ZDNet. "When I left for North America, my mother was not happy, but... it is what it is." It's not just the software developers quitting either. The Greek Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis also resigned. A portion of his resignation announcement reads: "Soon after the announcement of the referendum results, I was made aware of a certain preference by some Eurogroup participants, and assorted ‘partners’, for my ‘absence’ from its meetings; an idea that the Prime Minister judged to be potentially helpful to him in reaching an agreement. For this reason I am leaving the Ministry of Finance today."
Fuck those guys.
It's not the only country where this has happened. The money they will send back home to help out the relatives left behind will help the entire country bounce back eventually. There are tough times ahead for Greece.
Welcome to America, here's your W-2, here's your 1040.
Umm, I lived in Vancouver Canada for 10 years as a software developer and me and most of my software developer friends ALSO moved to the US (I currently work for Apple, most work for Google or other local companies). Greek developers may have an extra incentive to move, but they are hardly unique.
Bitcoins are up
that you just mashed together in order to have a "technology" aspect of this story and justify the publication on Slashot.
Anyway, the devs must leave because the tax they face on their revenue and insurance payments are very high compared to the US or other countries. Another reason why austerity has failed in Greece has put the economy in a death spiral.
PAY DENBTS
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If was living in Greece now, and had marketable skills, I would be leaving too.
If you can't even keep your banking sector from collapsing, what confidence should I have that you can run the rest of your economy.
And Greece isn't exactly known for being a software development powerhouse anyway. I'm not sure I'd leave for the USA tho, I'd probably head to germany or france, or maybe join an Israeli startup (depending on how much risk I was willing to take).
... it gets Greece out of your way.
I think it's pretty clear Varoufakis was turfed by Tsipras because the only hope in hell Greece now has of negotiating a deal with the Troika and remaining in the Eurozone and even in the EU is not having that man by his side. The price of even talking about a new deal and further bailouts is Varoufakis's head, which has been delivered to Merkel on a silver platter. This referendum was completely about Tsipras's political survival, and having achieved that, Greek voters will now witness just how utterly irrelevant the referendum was.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
the percentages point to him.
"Adios, suckers!" the Finance Minister screamed as he hit his secret eject button.
SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
This is the first time that I can think of that a population directly voted in the affirmative to collapse their economy.
I hope that's just me being cynical, but I think that's what's on the way.
Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
There's an even bigger problem facing the industry than migration of its workers, however. "The number of young students pursuing ICT careers has decreased constantly during the last ten years to 2014-2015. We have just 2,700 new graduates in computer science," Guarna says.
Now, why would that be?
Is it like here in the States where you constantly see news stories about more immigrant workers from India and more offshoring to India and other poor countries?
I think that unless you really love engineering, science, math and programming, I would stay away from it. In 5 or so years, the job market for those areas is going to turn to shit. Here's the writing on the wall.
And with the oil markets in turmoil, all those new petroleum engineers are asking, "Would you like room for cream?"
Things can change fast in this globalized World and today's "right" choice is tomorrow's stupid one.
Software devs do nothing for the economy anyway.
If you can't beat visa and "offshore" workers, become one.
Table-ized A.I.
Thought the fact that they passed laws banning all ownership of firearms would get rid of the gun crime there? It worked in Australia.
Nice troll!
Merke!
If you need more programmers, make it easier for US citizens to move and get work there. I'd gladly move there and work the same work I do now. Yeah it would mean more taxes and less of an "American" standard of living, but if I could swim in the the Mediterranean everyday, I'd go for it.
Socialism ? This is Bankers doing what they do best destroying soceity anything for another dollar with no risk to themselves.
A strong group can make weak individuals stronger. Individuals who are SO weak that they just cannot be helped, are bound to leave the petri dish and go infect some other group.
By the way, this group-is-everything mentality that you disparage (perhaps because you take such a culture for granted) is exactly the reason why Scandinavian countries rank among the highest in the world in terms of standard of living, literacy, overall happiness, quality of life, etc.
Meanwhile, your fellow Swedes -- yourself included, apparently -- who flee to countries where individualism is favored, are going to be in for a rude awakening when they discover that in such countries, individuals are *nothing*.
Out of many....ONE. This is the motto on US currency. Sadly, such thinking has been pretty much destroyed in favor of individual, every-man-for-himself mentality. When every-man does not give back to the group (as is no longer encouraged or rewarded in American society), the group as a whole is doomed.
Take away message: you would do well to move back to Sweden, because America is fucked.
This 'no' vote self-imposes the spending cut that Greece hates to see but the 'yes' vote also imposes the spending cut. There is no way to avoid a spending cut for Greece.
Austerity is a strange word, it sounds sterile, it has strange connotations. The correct term is spending cuts.
You cut spending if you cannot afford what you are spending on and when you cannot borrow to spend either and in case of chronic offenders the sooner the creditors realize what they are dealing with the healthier for everybody. It's healthier for the spender, who has to come to terms of the impossible situation he is in and it is healthier for the creditor, who will avoid losing even more money. It is healthier for the overall economy not to have welfare State system in the first place, to have people consume based on what they produce and not based on what can be taken from somebody else without any form of repayment.
Real money does not come into being by magic, it is not printed into existence, it is not magically created on a computer. Real money is the result of productive activity, where the word 'productive' really means that something is being produced that others are voluntarily willing to trade for in a way that is sustainable for both, the producer and the consumer.
The world has been playing with fire for the last 100 years with everybody being on fiat, it's been playing with a gigantic fire since the USD became uncontrollably inflationary due to it not being backed by any production (USA has been running half a Trillion USD trade deficit for over a decade now) nor by any money reserves (USD is not backed by gold, Nixon defaulted on the dollar back in 1971, and that's how these problems of inflationary policies and welfare state accelerated).
USA has its own version of what is Greece experiencing right now, that's what 'debt ceiling' is. Many believe that USA can simply print bonds and sell them and get out of jail free, however this only works as long as somebody buys those bonds and the bond market is the biggest bubble of all. USA will have its own currency crisis and bonds are currency promised into the future, so that will also collapse.
As Germany now refuses to just pour money into this bottomless pit called Greece, people will refuse to just pour money into the bottomless pit called USA and that will be even more interesting to observe.
Everybody who tells you 'austerity does not work' are full of it. Austerity means you are not spending money you didn't earn and especially where it concerns consumption rather than investment, and ALL things that people want government to spend on are consumption and not investment, so the important distinction is this: government must be austere, only government austerity can reallocate the scarce resources to people, who will rebuild the economy.
In the long run Greece is better off because of this spending cut, it will learn to live within its means and maybe to produce more and it will have a healthy economy. But like any alcoholic or drug addict apparently it will have to hit the rock bottom before it will reform.
You can't handle the truth.
Not being an economist, is it feasible in an way to loan the money to the people of Greece and let the greek banks die?
Is Greece showing any real signs of wanting to address the problems of their economy and tax dodging?
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
Yes, but the situation has changed. Now they are doing it by request of the Greek people.
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Seriously! Have you made any attempt to understand this problem?
Former Greek governments borrowed the money, not bankers. Most of the money wasn't lent by bankers. The troika comprises the EU, the IMF and the European Central Bank - mostly politicians, not bankers.
The current problem facing Greece is that no-one will lend them any more money. Even if 100% of their past debts were written off, current tax receipts are insufficient to meet current expenditure. Without more money from the people you mistakenly call bankers, austerity in Greece will become much worse.
Put the blame where it really lies. Not with bankers, but with dishonest politicians and a delusional electorate who always believed someone else would pay their bills.
It's all Greek to me...
...laura
Yes Socialism...
The banks are not the cause of the problem here, but the symptom of the sickness that's killing Greece (and countries in similar situations). Greek banks WILL fail. They don't have stacks of euros to stuff into the ATM's and the people of Greece are desperately trying to empty their accounts because everybody knows that if you leave your cash in the bank, you won't get it out. Everybody wants to be in hard currency, euros. The banks have run out.
Ask yourself, how did Greece get to this point? Basically it's because they failed to make the most recent payment on their national debt. There isn't enough euros in the government coffers to make the payment, they defaulted and now they cannot borrow because nobody wants to lend them anything. Why is the government in Greece at this point? Because they SPENT money they didn't have and cannot raise. Normally countries just print more currency to pay loans, but you cannot do that when it's euros you need to print.
So what did Greece spend all this money on? Early retirement for everybody and social programs. Socialism in leaning, if not actual practice is what has Greece into crushing debt.
Greece is being crushed between the Eurozone and their debt, the debt that funded their social programs. The sad part though is that the people who will really pay for this are the poor, the people who didn't have the ability to move their assets OUT of Greece.
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
Greek people don't need the capital. They have all the taxes they didn't pay.
What they need is a solid currency. I suggest bitcoin.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
No, it was socialism yet again proving that you cannot overspend and tax your way to prosperity. It's happened time after time and people like you still insist that it's a matter of not overspending / taxing enough.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
By the way, this group-is-everything mentality that you disparage (perhaps because you take such a culture for granted) is exactly the reason why Scandinavian countries rank among the highest in the world in terms of standard of living, literacy, overall happiness, quality of life, etc.
Great, lets start deporting the useless members of our society to those Scandinavian countries and those of us who have useful skills and the motivation to work can have a drastically improved quality of life.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
Not all of them returned, heck not even most of them returned. But risk-tolerance, ambition etc are not distributed uniformly, it follows the power law. So the 20% who returned took with them 80% of the risk-tolerance, ambition, entrepreneurship with them back to India.
So let Greece give up euro for drachma, let drachma fall as low as INR. It will thrive on tourism, and the Greeks coming back to start companies a few years down the road.
Germany has benefitted a lot by the economic union. Had Deutschmark stayed out of euro, its exports would have become so expensive no one could import them. 80% of Germany's exports are to rest of Europe. Capital would have naturally flowed to less expensive countries, and they would have the companies and employment restoring the balance. Greece leaving euro is going to be a bigger blow to Germany than to Greece.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
The poor really don't have assets. The people who will really pay is the people who aren't rich but not poor either. Those who have money they put away for their later years and other needs will lose it. I feel sorry for them but there is little hope and it's going to get worse. The US will be in the same place in a decade or so. I have a retirement I'll probably never see.
The software devs make slashdot, but the Greek investors, millionaires and business leaders also left long ago. Once there is a flat tax, a social change (like the Baltic states) to allow reduced government, sales of public businesses to private ownership, they will come back. And buy them and invest in them!!
LISTEN
JJ
Hard to commit gun crime with a rock. Murder is less efficient but with a few whacks it's doable.
Even if 100% of their past debts were written off, current tax receipts are insufficient to meet current expenditure.
That situation is exactly the same in the US (except the gap is about $500 billion right now, more than the entire Greek debt). The only reason that the US keeps going is that they control the lender (the Federal Reserve). At least they think they do.
"Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
--- Jerry Garcia
Sorry, but you are incorrect. Greece reported a nearly 2 billion euro surplus in 2014, without taking interest payments into account. http://www.wsj.com/articles/greece-misses-target-on-budget-surplus-1421244654
If their debt were wiped out today they would keep that money and need no further bailouts. Better yet they could go back to the Drachma and manage their currency with a combination of monetary and fiscal policy, just like every other sovereign nation in the developed world.
You can't oversimplify the Greek situation as "socialism". There are plenty of examples of countries that are doing fine economically with policies that embrace social spending. The Greek situation is far more complex and involves politics and the Euro as much as anything else.
Sorry, but you're out of date. The Greek government's primary surplus disappeared shortly after the election of the Syriza government.
My understanding is the problem is not as much the banks, but the government providing massive entitlement programs alongside negligible tax revenue plans. There is generally a split between 'oh the government should provide better for the welfare of the citizens' and 'we need to scale back to allow tax cuts to let people help themselves' with an understanding that no matter the correct answer, you can't have *both*.
Greece tried to have both, and now is stuck in a place where they can either stop entitlements that people *need* or ramp up taxes on people who don't have any money.
It highlights your agenda, that's about it.
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
I agree with you to some extent. The individuals must make the group stronger though. People who can contribute but refuse to are getting to be a serious problem. Dead weight will kill any group. Paying taxes is important for everyone. Having a third of the population that pays no taxes will cause resentment as well as economic problems.
The problem in the U.S. is not people who don't have skills. People have skills. The problem is that skills aren't valued. If you have skills, you will get paid shit. If you manipulate money, you will get paid a lot. This is why there's been such a geek brain drain into the financial industry. The U.S. does not value working for a living. We value gambling for a living.
Note not just socialism, but socialism *AND* cutting taxes low. They tried to have their cake and eat it too.
Of course before the Euro, they might have been able to stumble over this while massively devaluing their currency, and it wouldn't have been as disruptively bad. EU members might just have too much sovereignty to share a currency.
The Federal Reserve doesn't work like that. The USA can maintain its government deficit because enough people are willing to buy US government bonds. If, one day, people no longer trust it to repay its debts, there will be a financial meltdown the like of which the world has never yet seen.
Ignorant lout.
"Some of our citizens have also decided to take 'Modern Proposal' literally, and have even started a trend of boiling their own children and eating them."
No, they haven't, and Swift's satirical essay was called "A Modest Proposal". (Short version.)
Banking in the EU is pretty much borderless for the wealthy. Just open an account in a German or whatever bank. You might need to establish 'residence'. But that's not difficult to satisfy the requirements of regulations. For the middle class on down, its another matter. If the neighborhood banks and ATMs shut down, what are you going to do? Hopping on a plane or train for a weekly cash run is no problem for the rich. Not so much for everyone else.
Any bank opening a branch (or ATM) inside Greece will expose themselves to local regulations and the economy. So there's not much chance of that happening. Not impossible, but not likely.
The problem is: Who is going to loan money to the Greeks? Too much of the population is unemployed or dependant on govenment pensions or jobs. So there's no hope of getting paid back. The few who have good paying jobs (or wealth in-country) are going to be targeted for revenue to redistribute to those living off the public coffers.
Have gnu, will travel.
Educated young oeople were flooding out of Greece long before the current government took over. The present government's rise is a reaction to the death of the Greek economy, not the cause of it.
Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
The Federal Reserve doesn't work like that. The USA can maintain its government deficit because enough people are willing to buy US government bonds. If, one day, people no longer trust it to repay its debts, there will be a financial meltdown the like of which the world has never yet seen.
The largest purchaser of US bonds today is ... wait for it ... the Federal Reserve.
"Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
--- Jerry Garcia
Not just a US problem. Edinburgh has a massive call centre outsourcer. Now we all know that call centres pay peanuts, because they don't really need skilled workers, but this one does, because it's a multilingual call centre. All of their staff are fluent in two, three or even four or more languages. They get about £500 more than the usual unskilled phone jockey per year, despite the huge efficiency savings made by not having to have individual call handlers on hand for each language even at slow times. And people say this is OK because of supply and demand.
Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
Yes, the middle class will pay with money, but the poor will pay with their lives and suffering. As Greece collapses, those who have nothing and are dependent on the government will pay first. Starvation, violence and sickness will kill them. The middle class will just become poor...
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
No, developers are not leaving Greece en-masse.
As for "nobody pays taxes in Greece" - the budget of Greece is actually BALLANCED. The government takes more in taxes than it pays its citizens.
Let me repeat it: THE BUDGET OF GREECE IS BALANCED.
The problem is that creditors want MOAR BLOOD from Greece, knowing perfectly well that it'll increase unemployment and general suffering.
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote.
GDP fell and unemployment is at 25%. A lot of people left the country. So tax receipts fell and the pensions system can no longer be sustained. So was this a problem with the pensions or a problem with a failed economy thanks to the measures of the troika?
Yanis Varoufakis - now there's a turkey with the stuffings!
He used to work as consultant at Valve, then left to be economic minister of Greece only to find that it is harder to do the latter, rather than stay at Valve and hand over hats for TF2!
I wonder how Valve would fare if user bought a lot of games, then said we dont pay for them then have the gall to ask for more games!
Greece can go fuck goats - Oh sorry they already do!
And yet the creditors want to lend them more money which they can't afford to pay back which continues their spiral into debt. Funny how that works.
You donâ(TM)t actually know what you are talking about do you.
Most of the loans in question here were in fact loaned by German and French bankers to the Greeks prior to the 2008, Deutsche bank was one of the biggest. They could get somewhat higher returns loaning to Greece and they had some security because Greece was in the Eurozone. That security unravelled with the 2008 crash.
The ECB, EU, IMF gave massive loans to Greece in 2010, and most of it immediately went to extricate the German and French banks from their bad greek loans. If the Greeks has defaulted on the original loans then there would have been a massive banking crisis in Germany and France. The 2010 EU bailout was to save their banks more than it was to help the Greeks.
The Greeks just got more debt piled on top of too much debt and its totally destroyed their economy. Recently released IMF studies confirm the Greeks canâ(TM)t sustain their current debt load and it has to be restructed or they have to default. If they stay the current course with austerity and more and more bailout loans they are doomed.
If the Greeks had been smart they would have exited the EU and defaulted on the debt in 2009 and the people who made the bad loans, the German and French bankers, would have paid the price. Instead they got off scot free.
Iceland immediately defaulted in a similar situation, they had some short term pain but they rebounded, while the Greece has gotten nothing but worse and worse under the yoke of a corrupt European and global banking system.
For banking and loans to work there is a simple rule, if you are foolish enough to make a bad loan to someone who probably wonâ(TM)t pay it back, then you pay the price when they default. Instead the people who make the bad loans (i.e. bankers) get to keep their bonuses profits and everyone else gets to pay for their stupidity, greed and corruption.
@de_machina
So what hurt Ireland during the economic collapse was all that social spending...oh wait it was taking on the debt of the banks....
Not quite - it's more complex than that. To be sure having creditors lend more money instead of debt restructure did not help. Funny how in the U.S. we restructure the debt of wall street banks but we force everyone else to pay their debts at face value.
That's usually what happens when you fire everyone, liquidate what's left and then proceed to have no further source of income: A large inflow of cash, followed by nothing.
Yeah, look at how awful countries like Norway and Sweden are with all their "nanny-state policies".... they only have the highest standards of living in the world.
Something for nothing? Heck no, the EU creditors were not giving loans from the goodness of their hearts.
Yes, the Greek Government is mostly at fault for this.. but so are the Greek people who keep voting in people making false promises. You know, the guys who claim that you can have all of these Government programs for "free".
I really have no idea why you tried the ole cold war propaganda routine, but it does not make any sense here at all.
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
No. He has DOLLARS stashed somewhere from when he worked for Valve in Texas.
He's too smart to stash his money in Euros.
That's socialism?
There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
The only difference between Greece and the US is that the US can print more money, don't you remember every couple of years the US has a crisis where it is running out of money, their solution print more money (problem solve right?).
I actually think that Greece should go bankrupt, sure it may be tough for a while but better that the whole country servicing debt indefinitely, which it cannot hope to repay.
Actually it probably will not be that bad, they probably have industries that produce essentials. I don't even think trade will stop, sure they won't be able trade Dramas for goods and services but they will be able to trade those for Euros, or US dollars and then trade those Euros for other services. Markets are wonderful like that, they adapt.
I think what the lenders are really worried about is what happens if Greece doesn't collapse, it will suddenly allow all those other poor countries that owe lots of money to contemplate doing the same thing.
It may also teach people to stop lending to entities that cannot repay, when you lend money to people to take on the risk that they may not pay you back.
Just like with an individual going bankrupt is not a desirable outcome, but is a better solution than living the rest of your life as a slave to your debt.
Most of the money wasn't lent by bankers.
Yes, it actually was. The EU/IMF/ECB then bailed those banks out, for some inexplicable reason, by taking the debt off their hands. Neither group, bankers or EU, did risk analysis. If they did, Greece never would have been lent the money in the first place.
There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
Actually, this and parent skirt a real issue of employment, education, and welfare in the U.S.
- We are permitting the illegal immigration of unskilled, under educated Central, South, and Latin American immigrants, along with Mexican immigrants, to come to American and compete for the worst jobs.
- Despite lower employment, we continue to do this.
- Even if we take up the challenge and offer education to these immigrants, they will only compete further up the social ladder. And more under educated will come, since we lack the will to control the influx.
- English is not their preferred language. This not only costs in providing bilingual resources, but it causes resentment and risks discrimination.
Some skills in America are valued, and intelligent people seek those skills, or they accept less value for the skills they do choose. Since manufacturing has largely left the US, those work skills (work as in physical labor) are not so much in demand. Information technology is taking up that slack, but those skills are too often found in legal immigrants under programs such as the H1B visa program, and Americans lose out again.
The labor force participation rate is a telling statistic, dropping from 66+% in 2008 to 62.5% today. Those workers no longer in the workforce didn't just disappear. They are still eating, living somewhere, and are doing so at the expense of someone else. So long as we permit illegal immigration to continue largely uncontrolled, we keep adding workers to a marketplace that has too many already.
Higher employment might make a number of other solutions to other problems possible, but in the current economic situation we are doomed to continue deficit spending and a further plunge into debt. No way out without the economy improving.
And even then, the will to say 'no' to the hands out looking for a paycheck for nothing is critical. And unlikely to happen given the current political situation, either.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
There is one little problem with that idea. There is no mechanism to "exit" the EU, just as there is no mechanism to kick a member out. Government tends to be like that (ask the Confederacy).
Good idea!!
I would love to watch from the sidelines the financial titanic when a country's reserved is suddenly declared completely, invalid, hacked, stolen, etc. Even more entertaining then the coming meltdown of the greek economy! Worthy of a Hollywood disaster movie!
Edinburgh? The low pay is because nobody outside Scotland can understand their fookin English. You'd be better off with the center in Mumbai.
I'd call and speak German to them to test, but the thought of German with a thick Scottish accent is enough to make me shudder.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Yes, it absolutely highlights the risks of Bernie Sanders' grecian views of how to run an economy!
Social program such as an oversized pointless military? Yes that is a one of their problems.
The "problem" is the attitude that borrowing has no limits and that voting to keep the government doling out benefits it has no means to pay for is a good idea. The GDP fall and unemployment are unfortunate events, but they where impacted by the same policies that had the government borrowing. The Greek people voted for this (not just once, but many times), in large part, and thus are responsible for what's coming.
However, this is not to discount the fact that being in the Euro has also been a problem, that Greece has paid for the mismanagement of the Eurozone too.
IMHO, Greece (et all) are going to be squeezed between excessive debt and the Eurozone. Had Greece not gone on the Euro, or had they gone to austerity long before their creditors demanded it of them, we would all be talking about something else.
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
Such stupid sarcasm...
Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.
A strong national defense is VITAL to the security of both the USA and the world. The last 200+ years of history show this to be true, and the graves of the dead are reminders of what happens when you forget your history.
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
Insightful? Really? Just repeating something you saw on Fox news, that is.
German and French banks were going to default because Greek banks were bankrupt. Here comes savior bce to lend the Greek government to bailout Greek banks. Private debt turned into public debt, with a shitload of military spending in the middle that went... Guess it, Germany and France.
Greece problems comes from chronic corruption that fed a network of privileged closed to the governments, and troikas bailouts didn't put any stop to that, which demonstrates that they just want to keep pumping money out of Greece. Tsipras offered to cut military spending, and other cuts that were utterly dissmissed by the troika. They just wanted to cut social spending, to push their agenda, not to make Greece an economically viable state in the long term.
The Greek people doubt pay tax.
All former governments were lying about the economy.
instead of being in surplus or at most 3% deficit, the Greek economy had been running a 14% deficit.
They have been lying from before they were ever let into the eu, they started lying because they wanted the euro so badly to lower the cost of borrowing.
Why was the cost of borrowing so high? Greek people were really bad at paying their debts.
The problem is the eu should never have let them in without a proper audit. They are only now getting what they deserve.
Good luck keeping it while going bankrupt. The point anyway was that Greece has wasted money left AND right.
They may have to follow Ireland's example, that turned out very well, but they have to very big problems.
- âoegrexitâ is necessary
- they have to make people pay taxes they are not used to.
The other problem is Greece has been lying about their situation ever since they started their bid to enter the eu.
The eu should have performed an audit, the banks should have performed an audit.
but at the end of the day, the Greek government shouldn't have been lying.
but, what's a 14% deficit that you report as 3% between friends.
"fookin"?!? Is that supposed to be a Scottish accent? You're a couple of hundred miles out, mate. Ignorance and bigotry are such common bedfellows...
Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
Norway has massive natural resource exports accounting for nearly 33% of GPD, imports half of what it exports and only 3 million people in the labor force. Sweden's GPD is also nearly 33% exports, slight trade imbalance in favor of exports and 5 million people in the labor force.
Greece has 12% GPD from exports, imports twice as much as it exports and has only 5 million in the workforce.
For perspective, the USA makes only 9% of GPD from exports (that includes the recent massive increase in gas and oil exports), imports 50% more than it exports and has 156 million people in the workforce.
Norway and Sweden's success has nothing to do with political models and entirely to do with geography. If the Aegean had oil fields, Greece would be a socialist paradise too.
You're quite right that the first two bailouts primarily rescued Greece's creditors, but Greece already owed that money to someone. The losers in those transactions weren't the Greeks - the big losers European taxpayers who adopted the Greek government's debts.
But you're very mistaken if you think that the biggest buyers of government debt are the banks. Pension funds, investment funds and insurance companies have far more cash to splash.
You're also pretty ignorant if you claim that institutions perform no credit assessment of their investments. For traded bonds like government IOUs, that assessment is essentially outsourced to three credit reference agencies, Moody's, Standard and Poor's and Fitch. Those agencies are supposedly licenced and regulated but utterly failed to identify the risk with Greek debt ahead of the downturn. If you're looking for a scapegoat on the creditor side, they're a much better scapegoat than the banks.
Blaming the banks is a lazy knee-jerk reaction that's not really grounded in fact. P.S. I'm not a banker.
The US has two things that Greece doesn't: an economy, credibility, and nukes.
I'll come in again.
The Greek PM was mumbling about "external forces" (in between wittering about ancient history) on TV over the weekend. He looked & sounded drunk to me. Frankly, if I was PM of a tin-pot kleptocracy like that I'd probably have a decent nip of Ouzo before going on the box.
If you think it's the illuminati, the freemasons or the joooooz, just say so. Don't piss around.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Comedies generally sell better.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
We don't need to actually kill them. Here, we ostracize them and discourage them from voting.
Of course, there is personal danger associated to that but that's what CCWs are for...
Iâ(TM)m not blaming âoebankersâ exactly, Iâ(TM)m blaming people who loan money to people who are may or may not pay it back and when they dont get paid back they go running to their central banks or governments and demand they get made whole at the expense of everyone else. Same thing happened in the U.S. in 2009 with the TARP and assorted other bail outs.
Yea the rating agencies really sucked especially leading up to the crash in 2008, but it doesnâ(TM)t relieve lenders of ultimate responsibility for their actions. If the credit ratings are wrong its the responsibility of the lender to figure this out, no one else.
Lenders collect interest on their loans partially to cover the potential risk they wont get paid back, the higher that risk the higher the interest they collect. If they collect high interest rates on risky mortgages and then when someone defaults on them central banks and governments make them whole it creates massive moral hazard.
If the Greeks were a bad risk prior to 2008, which they probably were, the interest rates they had to pay should have been higher and they would have been dissuaded from borrowing or lenders would have been dissuaded from lending to them. Instead the EU created a perverse system where risky borrowers (all of the PIIGS) got relatively cheap money and a lot of it and were incentivized to take as much of it as they could. The EU and the lenders are 100% to blame for this situation for throwing the money at them.
The PIIGS shouldâ(TM)ve never entered an economic union with Germany in the first place, they had no chance of competing with Germany locked in to the same currency. It was a win win for Germany on all fronts.
@de_machina
I thought he was a frequent contributor who writes stories that are as far from short as it's possible to be?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
The reason the U.S. can keep going is that the Fed can print money and lend it to the government. The Federal Reserve is not part of the government and makes money on the money it lends. The tax money you pay doesn't really go where you think it goes. Why do you think our money says "Federal Reserve Note" on the bills?
And they don't answer to anybody. Politicians who try to control the Fed don't last very long.
According to our Constitution the government is supposed to be the ones printing the money, not some non-governmental central bank. Central banks are evil and we never should allowed one to take control
One of these days there will be a day of reckoning and it won't be pretty. I hope I'm dead before that happens.
A few additional interesting facts:
1) The original cause of the Greek debt was due to the fact that greek labor costs were significantly higher than other EU nations. When they joined the EU, this caused a large trade deficit...leading to lower GDP and higher debt.
2) Greece has always been somewhat left-leaning and rather than curtail spending during low income years, they actually increased spending by incurring more debt
3) The government (with the help of some banks) "hid" their massive deficit spending through the use of credit default swaps. This made Greece appear to be a better investment than they actually were when other banks provided loans.
4) Greece also historically has one of the highest rates of tax evasion
All of the above contributed to the present crisis, not just "bad greek loans".
Citations mostly from wikipedia, but plenty of similar info on the web.
Sounds like it's time to get people working the land again. I would hate to take a job that I wasn't happy with, but sometimes I suppose it is better than starving?
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
We just don't have the will to really go after companies for hiring illegal immigrants. Neither party does and just lets it happen. Do that and demand for labor will go up significantly. Wages will go up for certain professions and people will take those jobs. It'll work itself out naturally if we actually cared about enforcing immigration laws.
The bankers loaned it well before the 2008 crash. They probably did risk analysis, but underestimated the risk.
Ah the usual lying rant from well known malware author APK, It's sad how deluded the poor fellow is, with his imaginary wins in arguments.
The 90's called and want their malware protection back...:)
What, both of them?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
I could take a cash advance on a credit card at 28%, put it in a deposit account at 1%, and generate a surplus without taking interest payments into account.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
They wont let the poor starve. Starving people are dangerous beyond belief. The Czars learned this too late to prevent their extinction. Basic subsistence really doesn't cost all that much. It's not really living, just an existence.
... how afraid my poor countrymen are of Varoufakis:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
That's a good description, but everyone is still missing the actual cause. Firstly, the European Union is founded on an ideology that doesn't allow for an economic crisis. Second, when the crisis hit in 2008, the Greek *private* sector *reduced* their bank borrowing. Their money supply shrank, velocity shrank too, jobs were lost, tax receipts went down. Their government debt ratio went up, not because they were borrowing more, but because GDP fell. But the Euro doesn't allow Greece to run a large deficit, nor to increase their debt level, so they can't stimulate their economy to prevent further job losses.
The Greek government weren't in good shape before, but the combination of a crisis and the rules imposed by the Union have wiped them out.
09F91102 no, 455FE104 nope, F190A1E8 uh-uh, 7A5F8A09 that's not it, C87294CE no. Ah! 452F6E403CDF10714E41DFAA257D313F.
This is unfortunately very true.
Everybody who has money in Greek banks will in all likelihood get robed with the stroke of a pen.
See subject: That's what I like to see - you RAN like the beyotch you are!
* R O T F L M A O!
APK
P.S.=> You FAIL weasel... lol! apk
How to get that economy rolling again after it grinds to a halt. I'm thinking put everything for the next couple of years into farming and becoming self-sufficient, and start printing a crypto-drachma. This will look exactly like a regular drachma, except it will have the word "Crypto" in front of it. People with money eat that shit up. The Crypto-drachma will be backed with the full standing and reputation of the Greek government... and... um... did I mention it has the word "Crypto" in front of it? Say that enough and it will quickly become the pre-eminent currency of the world. Admittedly I know absolutely nothing about economics, but apparently neither did the people who got Greece into this.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
The links he posted make you out as the liar here Coren22.
Funny ha ha - 80% of all the bail out money went on converting the private debt owed to German and French banks to Public greek debt.
The reason to prevent a German and French banking collapse.
In Return for this 'loan' the IMF insisted on cuts to social programs and not military spending etc which went mainly to Germany and France. Somethings rotten in th estate of the EU and it may not be Denmark.
All you'll get for your correct and logical analysis is this reply: Racist! ...
Americans have been conditioned to feel guilt for the basic self interest that common sense dictates and which most countries INCLUDING MEXICO implement.
See subject: "SiDeWaLk-ShRiNk!!!" - to Coren22's rescue - my my!
* R O T F L M A O!
Sockpuppetry @ it's finest (lol) from our sockpuppet master, Coren22 no less!
(Complete with delusions of grandeur @ being a pseudo psych professional too - "2 for the price of 1").
Coren's favorite color has to be transparent.
I mean it!
He's SO easy to SEE thru! Yes, I see you Coren22. Tell us about AlmostALLAdsBlocked - won't you? lol!
APK
P.S.=> Let's see: No degree or license to practice, no experience in it either, & no formal examination of my alleged mental condition from Dr. Quack (Coren22's HIGHLY identifiable post by ac without question) ? Please... lmao! apk
Wrong. The Fed only owns about 15% of Treasuries (which is different from bonds). But I am sure you are an expert on the Fed and WTC7.
It benefits France and Germany to be in a monetary union with the smaller economies without it being a fiscal union as well. They get export their goods without upward pressure on their home currencies pricing them out of the market AND there is no mechanism in place to transfer money from Germany to Greece via taxes like there would be in a fiscal union.
The troika only stepped in to assume debt that was going to clobber French and German banks. Greece should have defaulted the first time around but they stuck out 'austerity' for the benefit of foreign banks. Now that the foreign banks have offloaded the bad debt on to EU tax payers (most of the early bailouts to Greece went to straight to the Greece's creditors which were foreign private banks) the whole thing gets dressed up as Greece fleecing EU tax payers, its a huge load of bullshit created to transfer money from EU tax payers to private banks by laundering it through Greece's fiscal crisis.
They are not exiting the EU, just the Eurozone. Countries can be in the EU without being on the Euro.
Yet every time someone want to rein in the spending in the US, we hear "we have a paying bills problem, not a spending problem."
It's hard to correct course when you have a mindset that all spending is now set in stone (not counting the automatic increases each year.)
And yes, the war in Iraq caused a lot of that but the idea that we can use this to justify every increase in debt is silly.
Social program such as an oversized pointless military? Yes that is a one of their problems.
Do people really think that socialist countries will not have over-sized pointless militaries? The whole issue is that most things government run becomes oversized and useless.
Out of 100K income paying 86K tax is 86% taxation. The highest income bracket is ~40% taxation. You are either mixing up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.... Something certainly does not add up.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
What they currently own is not the same as how much they are currently purchasing. Nice attempt at diversion, but you've failed.
Unless there was another agenda. Look at how the IMF operates. Lend money, then dictate to the victim country how to run things, tell them what public assets should be sold off at fire-sale prices to buddies in corporate positions, what governing policy should be, etc. You know they'll never be able to pay it back, so they're in your pocket forever. It's a way of effectively owning a country without having to roll a single tank in.
The only fear the bankers have is that the victim will eventually wise up and tell them to shove their debt and it's not going to be paid. Then you hear all kinds of warnings, threats, and lies from the bankers telling them how bad it's going to be, and that they'd better just take another bailout if they want things to stay calm.
The other problem is that when a country finally does tell the bankers to shove it, and starts on the road back to normality, that it gives other countries under the banker's thumbs "bad ideas" that they too can do this.
It's the typical schoolyard bully scene played out on a global scale. People never really grow up, they just get older.
Yeah, look at how awful countries like Norway and Sweden are with all their "nanny-state policies".... they only have the highest standards of living in the world.
If high taxes alone made for a great economy then Greece wouldn't be on the verge of bankruptcy right now. You're either being flippant or your an ignoramus.
When you get this: Greek Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis said he will "wear the creditors' loathing with pride", then the idea that this guy is not being helpful is pretty clear. I understand that reforms suggested / insisted by the people providing the loan money is seen as interference by Greeks, but they are likely looking at getting their money back, and truly a better Greek economy doesn't just help creditors, but the Greek people too. And truly, working for 5 years and then getting paid for that work for the rest of your life only works with recording artists and bank executives. The average person doesn't get paid like that.
Unless you are ready to erect gulags to enslave people you can't make them live their lives to fund your unlimited capitalist dreams.
Valve is located in Seattle, dookie.
According to one tourist. About half of the shops avoid paying full tax. So part of the blame goes there also. But in the end it is the responsibility of the leaders to make sure that rules are followed.
200 years ago we didn't have Internet. Things don't always repeat themselves.
That is a silly argument like the finance minister of Greece saying "we can't go back to the drachma because we sold the presses". The EU would just create a law for the Greek exit on the spot and that's it.
The reason there is no mechanism in place is a "political statement" that means we are in this together and we are serious about it, but in practice it is at best a technical details. The problem obviously is that that contradict the original political statement and that's the open door for countries to bail out and angry citizen requiring "bad member of the EU/EURO" to be let go.
That is the risk - letting the Greek go probably means the end of the EURO - the fact that there is no mechanism is smoke and mirrors.
Sorry, but you're out of date. The Greek government's primary surplus disappeared shortly after the election of the Syriza government.
Sorry, but you're... inaccurate. The Greek government's primary surplus for Q1 2015 was €1.74 billion against a target of €119 million. This was achieved by collecting €1 billion more in tax in the month of March than had been expected. http://www.thetoc.gr/eng/econo...
2) Greece has always been somewhat left-leaning and rather than curtail spending during low income years, they actually increased spending by incurring more debt
Wow. That's an impressive ideological bias you're carrying there. True, Greek governments have increased spending in low-income years, and in high-income years, but Greece, like many countries, has alternated between left-leaning and right-leaning governments since the end of its dictatorship in 1974. It's a problem caused by a clientelistic state that got in the habit of purchasing votes, not by "lefties". It's worth noting that the current government, the one everyone rushes to label as "radical left", is the first and only to promise to tackle the clientelism and corruption, to commit to a balanced budget, and to deeply reform the way the economy works, taking advice from the OECD. But everyone's too busy talking about how "left" they are to notice.
3) The government (with the help of some banks) "hid" their massive deficit spending through the use of credit default swaps. This made Greece appear to be a better investment than they actually were when other banks provided loans.
So if I'm unemployed, but borrow a suit and tie and comb my hair before going to the bank to ask for money, it makes me a better investment? Do you think the banks and the Eurozone were unaware of Greece's financial trickery? Do you think maybe they should have looked into it a little deeper before lending billions? I really don't think there can be talk of reckless borrowing without a corresponding conversation about reckless lending.
All of the above contributed to the present crisis, not just "bad greek loans".
Yes and no. All of the above contributed to what would have been a Greek crisis. It had a rotten state and economy for 35 years when the global financial crisis happened, and when the bubble burst the problems were completely exposed. The piling of the largest loan in history onto the shoulders of an insolvent nation, accompanied by one of the harshest fiscal adjustments ever made, is what turned it from a Greek crisis into a European crisis. The willful denial of this by the Eurozone and other European leaders is what has contributed to making it a never-ending crisis.
Note not just socialism, but socialism *AND* cutting taxes low.
Honestly, where do people get this from? Greece is not "socialist". It alternated centre-left and centre-right governments for 40 years before the current "socialist" government, which is 100% opposed to the clientelistic practices of its predecessors.
Cutting taxes low? Try these on for size: 23% sales tax. 26% corporate tax, which the current government wants to raise to 29%. High income tax, with the self-employed being taxed from the first euro of earnings. Massive employee and employer contributions for health and pension plans. An emergency "solidarity" tax introduced to raise money during the crisis. An emergency property tax levied on electricity bills, with the result that those who couldn't pay the tax had their electricity cut off. Greece is a heavily taxed nation, and with the burden of those taxes falling most heavily on the economically weakest, it is far from socialist.
Sweden doesn't have oil. Also, similarly geographically positioned Finland isn't doing nearly as well at the moment. Sweden has it's own currency, which is arguably helping them right now. But the big difference is Swedes pay their taxes, their government isn't corrupt to the bone. Their goverment is making good decisions instead of popular ones. (and their population is actually smart enough to recognize them). Greece doesn't even have winters, it should be easy and cheap to take care of their elders.
You really believe that surplus don't you. Here is a little trick I learned early in life. If someone lies all the time about something, like claiming they have money they don't, you shouldn't believe them because they are *lying* again.
If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
If the Aegean had oil fields, Greece would be a socialist paradise too.
More likely there would be far more war with turkey.
If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
" The middle class will just become poor..."
The thing is, middle class already became poor over one night, because their money was in banks. The ones that actually have some income left will be ok. This includes people who get their income from outside the country, or from corporations that can move money around without Greek banks.
"A Jubilee study has shown that since 2010, the IMF, European governments and the European Central Bank has lent €252 billion to Greece. Over the same period, €232.9 billion has been spent on debt payments, bailing out Greek banks and paying ‘sweeteners’ to speculators to get them to accept the 2012 debt restructuring. This means less than 10% of the money has been used for anything else.
Back in 2010, nearly all government debt was owed to private entities such as banks. Today 78 per cent is owed to the public sector, primarily people in other Eurozone countries, but also throughout the world through the IMF’s loans"
http://www.independent.co.uk/n...
If almost all government debt was held by private entities in 2010, but only 22% today, that says to me that the money was originally lent by bankers, who were then bailed out by public institutions, with very little going to Greece itself.
Norway and Sweden's success has nothing to do with political models and entirely to do with geography. If the Aegean had oil fields, Greece would be a socialist paradise too.
Not even close. Sweden doesn't have one drop of oil, we have industry. And adding to that, the social programmes of Sweden are more expansive than our Norwegian brethren, who have oil. You see the Norwegians fund almost all their oil income into the world's largest and most well managed oil fund that is set up to last "indefinitely". They're most certainly not burning it. (The money. The majority of the oil most certainly burns).
Also, the oil is a recent thing, barely thirty years old. (I am old enough to remember when Norway was "poor" and we used to go shopping for cheaper staples there), and guess what, Sweden's social programmes were even further ahead than the rest of Europe in particular, and the world in general.
Stefan Axelsson
I wouldn't ask this guy, he's clearly not an economist either...
They wont let the poor starve.
I don't know who you think "they" are but it's not the government of Greece. The government has NO MONEY and has no way to raise any money. It cannot even print money. After the vote this weekend, they will have nearly zero economic activity to tax and have no income. So where they'd surely love to keep paying out on social programs, they simply will not be able to. The poor and retired will stop getting their benefits, many will die for lack of food, medication and basic medical care.
Now if you are talking about humanitarian aid from OUTSIDE Greece, you might be right on that score. But the bulk of this assistance will NOT come from the government of Greece.
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
The US prints dollars, the debt is in dollars. Think about your assertion and tell us how it could ever come to pass.
Cheap storage VM.
My keyboard doesn't have characters for Scottish sounds.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Sorry, but "The Turner Diaries" is just a wet dream, it has no basis in reality.
Cheap storage VM.
The disparity in currency value allowed alot of people to make alot of money when Greece entered the EU.
Cheap storage VM.
Who has that power over bitcoin?
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
You can't let people starve. I reiterate, starving people are dangerous. If the government of Greece can't feed it's people that government will be swept away in an ocean of blood. Basic subsistence food is cheap. There is no reason for people anywhere to starve. Choices have to be made and I'm sure there are things that can be eliminated to free up funds. Obviously Greece will have to come off the Euro and print it's own money.
You know, I actually believed in this too, until recently, when a friend smelled bullshit and called me out on it. We actually went to look at some numbers, and Iceland's GDP is still nowhere near where it was in 2007. It grew 30% in 5 years, which is great, but it would still need to grow almost 30% again to reach 2007 levels. So they did, and are still paying for their default. I'll refrain from comparing the situation to that of Greece.
Not just skilled labor, labor in general. Capital has run amok.
Cheap storage VM.
Ok.. Austerity AND violence are coming to Greece. Printing their own currency doesn't help this, at least in the short term. Nobody wants Greek money so they won't sell them anything for it and won't loan them anything else because they don't pay you back.
Feeding people subsistence amounts of food will cost more than Greece can pay.
Further, the ONLY real industry that Greece has that brings in foreign currency (tourism) is about to be totally decimated by riots and violence.
Greece is about to be left in tatters and remanded to third world status, unless they reverse their minds and elect to accept austerity. All this brinkmanship going on is only doing grave damage to Greece.
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
Do what counties used to do when short on funds, sell real estate!
Russia sold Alaska, Napoloeon sold Louisiana, remember the Gadsen purchase?
Aren't there some islands Russia are willing to buy for some southern Naval Bases? China would do it too, just to rub our noses in it. And they have cash!
Tracy Johnson
Old fashioned text games hosted below:
http://empire.openmpe.com/
BT
Excerpt:
Too much of what has been reported in the U.S. media in these last, fraught weeks has echoed fulminations of the creditors that distort reality. Syriza has been painted as a party of the extreme left, with Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras’s government depicted as irresponsible and irreverent. This scorn comes from troika functionaries committed to enforcing utterly ruinous policies and whose behavior towards a democratically elected government has been insulting in the extreme.
--- end excerpt ---
http://www.washingtonpost.com/...
mark "libertarianoids - you're entitled to your opinions, you are *not* entitled to your facts"
And where exactly are you from?
Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
The US prints dollars, the debt is in dollars. Think about your assertion and tell us how it could ever come to pass.
Your premise is wrong. The US doesn't print dollars - it borrows them from the Federal Reserve.
"Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
--- Jerry Garcia
https://m.facebook.com/christo...
Actually, you are a victim of manipulation. Or you don't think the banks are a major factor in the global crisis? In fact, it is about banks :)
For banking and loans to work there is a simple rule, if you are foolish enough to make a bad loan to someone who probably won')t pay it back, then you pay the price when they default. Instead the people who make the bad loans (i.e. bankers) get to keep their bonuses profits and everyone else gets to pay for their stupidity, greed and corruption.
This is a perfect example of moral hazard, and the bank executives should either be in jail, have their fortunes confiscated or both
Your the best kind of correct, "technically correct", but your still wrong.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jo...
Cheap storage VM.
and "your" [sic] not even technically correct.
The German and French banks are hardly private institutions. State banks etc.
Private investors in Greek bonds already took a 'haircut'. Last time the deadbeats were bailed out.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
They can't dodge taxes and have their money in banks. So no. Their money is safe in a mattress, in hard assets or a Swiss bank.
Greeks know their own politicians better than we do. They know BS when they hear it.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Nations don't take on the debt of their national banks. They own it from day one.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
It was always public greek debt, the only question is who the deadbeats owed money to. Went from German and French state banks to the euro zone central bank.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
My point stands, the US cannot default on dollar debts.
Cheap storage VM.
Saying that removing illegal immigrants will cause poor welfare Americans to start working in fields is like saying keeping the death penalty will stop people from killing each other. It's a conservative fantasy without any evidence (and actually evidence to the contrary).
Just because the U.S. is a republic does not mean it is not a democracy. Democracy/republic are not mutually exclusive.