Even the "Idea Person" Should Learn How To Code

useless idea person... by gbjbaanb · 2015-07-06 23:31 · Score: 5, Insightful

for every 100 "idea" persons there is 1 who not only has the ideas but knows enough that those ideas are sane and sensible. This is why the "idea person" is a fool and treated as such.

You see these guys on shows like The Apprentice, the ones who have no talent or skills and so have to fall back on their mouths. They're simply salesmen who always get shown up to be useless in the end. Even a true businessman has plenty of skills they have to learn around organisation and management (real skills, not just shouting at people and pretending they know what they're doing).

So: Idea people, get a clue.There's no easy way to skip the essential steps of truly knowing what you're doing unless you learn those skills.

Re:useless idea person... by jellomizer · 2015-07-07 00:12 · Score: 3, Insightful

There is value from someone outside the box. Normally I like to work with the lowest ranking person who would be using such a tool. As they are often the ones with the best ideas, because they know what is going on at the detail level. Not some high up Big Picture Idea guy. Who just crams features that may or may not be useful. Also dealing only with techs (unless your product is made for them) can be not productive, as they will normally resolve down to what is easiest to build, because to make a good product, you will sometimes need to push the boundaries a bit more.
Now that said. Any ideas needs to be balanced with the limitation of technology. I had to once reject a customer who wanted me to make an App to do the following. OCR documents, If the document date (which was not formally standardized, nor was willing to standardize it) was past the data retention period would flag the document to be deleted, as well put them in a work queue for the hard copies to be destroyed. I had to turn them down, because the application was a constant high risk of huge failure. OCR isn't perfect, the fact that the date wasn't standardized made it worse, combined the result is intended to cause data loss means any glitch is a problem. I offered an alternate solution, where when they store the documents they enter the retention date, manually, and if they added a bar code to them it would make the process simpler. However that required too much manual effort. He just wanted to put a stack of documents on a scanner. Scan them and have everything go automatically.

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If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Re:useless idea person... by gweihir · 2015-07-07 00:12 · Score: 1

Very much this. The inane stories about all the things computers will be able to do are mainly a result from "idea" people that have no clue.

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Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Re:useless idea person... by timholman · 2015-07-07 01:09 · Score: 4, Insightful

for every 100 "idea" persons there is 1 who not only has the ideas but knows enough that those ideas are sane and sensible. This is why the "idea person" is a fool and treated as such.
Exactly. Good ideas, even brilliant ideas, are a dime a dozen. It is the execution that matters, and great execution is a very rare bird indeed.
But once again we see this too-common meme popping up yet again; that everyone should learn to code. I see it at my university, where enrollments in our entry-level CS course are going through the roof. Everyone is taking a programming class because all the talking heads tell them they should.
Ultimately (IMHO) it's a waste of time and resources. Any moderately intelligent person can be taught to code "Hello World" in any given language, but that doesn't make him a programmer any more that teaching him to shoot a basketball makes him into a professional player.
Good programmers become "good" by immersing themselves in the language and the problem to be solved. It requires a degree of focus and experience that you won't get from a few simple programming assignments. So what happens if you make your "idea man" take a two-week short course in the fundamentals of programming? He'll write that "Hello World" app, think to himself "Is this all there is to programming?" and become even more dismissive of the profession than he was before.
If you're going to teach programming, focus your efforts on the people with a genuine interest in the subject. Wasting time and money on people with no real aptitude or interest is like teaching a chimpanzee to pretend to play the piano: it makes for a cute article in the news, but it's no substitute for real talent and ability.
Re:useless idea person... by Dcnjoe60 · 2015-07-07 01:19 · Score: 1

And yet, when you look at the stalwarts of today's tech industry, most of them excelled, not because of their technical skills but because of their ideas. The best technical skills in the world don't mean a thing if you can't envision how to use them for something others want. Put differently, it is a lot easier to teach others to code than it is to teach them to think creatively.
Re:useless idea person... by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 01:28 · Score: 1

You miss the point. The point is that people should know how to code (not be GOOD programmers or even program regularly), because then you know what is possible. Just like every architect needs to know about basic construction principles.
Re:useless idea person... by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 01:44 · Score: 0, Insightful

BS.
People should be exposed to coding not because they will ever code, any more than people should learn to write because they'll write a novel. People should be exposed to coding because it changes how their mind work, for the better.
Re:useless idea person... by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 01:53 · Score: 0

A middle ground would've been to not automatically destroy the papers, but all papers marked for deletion would have to be manually checked, but in the end, for the reasons you mention, it'd probably just caused too much manual labor as well.
Re:useless idea person... by drinkypoo · 2015-07-07 01:53 · Score: 4, Insightful

But once again we see this too-common meme popping up yet again; that everyone should learn to code.

What makes it too-common? I don't see it that often.

Ultimately (IMHO) it's a waste of time and resources. Any moderately intelligent person can be taught to code "Hello World" in any given language, but that doesn't make him a programmer
Look, we have this concept of an individual who is "well-rounded" not by accident, but because we have seen that people who know more about more stuff have more intelligent things to say. As it turns out, things you learn in one area often have broad applicability. If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. If you also have a screwdriver, the world looks like a different place. When you have a whole garage full of tools, it looks different again.
Heinlein had it right when he said that specialization was for insects. Life is too short for anyone to become a master of all trades, but life is too wondrous to restrict one's learning to a single discipline. Live a little. Learn. Experience.
The value in teaching everyone beginning programming is a lot like the value in teaching everyone a foreign language, or a musical instrument. Not everyone is going to become a master. Many will not even develop competence. But at minimum, they will become more aware of how the world works, and be able to make better-informed decisions. They will actually learn to see things differently and approach things in different ways. They will have a different idea of what is possible than people who don't know what they know.
TL;DR: It's a waste to try to make everyone into a programmer, but it's not a waste to teach everyone about programming.

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"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re:useless idea person... by drinkypoo · 2015-07-07 01:58 · Score: 3, Insightful

And yet, when you look at the stalwarts of today's tech industry, most of them excelled, not because of their technical skills but because of their ideas.
And yet, when you look at the stalwarts of today's tech industry, all of them excelled in part because of their technical skills, which formed their ideas. Sometimes they lacked the technical ability to carry their ideas to completion without assistance, but that's a mark of every great human endeavor.
Bill Gates was a programmer, albeit a mediocre one. Steve Jobs was also a bad programmer, and a worse EE... but he could at least build circuits and write code. These people excelled because of their ideas, but their ideas were founded in reality because they did have skills, even if they weren't exceptional in those areas.

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"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re: useless idea person... by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 02:14 · Score: 0

This is bullshit. Not everyone needs to have proficiency at everything. The kids spewing out all of this 21st century propaganda need to grow the eff up, learn about *real* teamwork, in which a variety of people with unique skills all contribute to actually create something new, and stop letting $$$ be a carrot in front of their deluded little noses. Think about how you might actually serve your fellow humans and world instead of how you can be rewarded monetarily for your 'brilliance'. People are not machines, the brain is not a mathematical equation, life, creativity, and nature are not ruled by an algorithm, and you will not be 20 forever, either. Get a fucking clue and follow your real interests, whatever they happen to be. There is plenty of room for variety in life, it's nature is evolution and unexpected change, and there is nothing you can do to future proof your future other than actually getting your feet wet and your hands dirty.
Re:useless idea person... by loonycyborg · 2015-07-07 02:22 · Score: 1

Ideas are cheap. People who actually can code already have loads of their own. There's just no way to be a pure "ideas person".
Re:useless idea person... by gnasher719 · 2015-07-07 02:36 · Score: 2

And yet, when you look at the stalwarts of today's tech industry, most of them excelled, not because of their technical skills but because of their ideas. The best technical skills in the world don't mean a thing if you can't envision how to use them for something others want. Put differently, it is a lot easier to teach others to code than it is to teach them to think creatively.
No, they didn't succeed because of their ideas, but because they managed to put money where their mouth is, and got the finances to turn the idea into something that can be sold.
Re:useless idea person... by Dcnjoe60 · 2015-07-07 02:51 · Score: 2

Yes, Bill Gates and Steve Jobs knew how to program. They both were mediocre cooks, too, but they didn't become famous chefs because of that. Both Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and many others had a vision of what the technology could do before others around them did and they were able to capitalize on that.
Another commonality between the two was that they both knew their strengths and weaknesses and surrounded themselves with people who made up for those weaknesses.
Finally, they both happened to be in the right place at the right time. The tech industry today is very different than in the 1980s.
Not to dismiss their accomplishments, nor to discourage one from pursuing a CS discipline, but to be successful, in any endeavor, you need capital, vision, hard work and luck. If you are missing one or more of those, it is unlikely that you will succeed, regardless of one's educational background.
Re:useless idea person... by freezin+fat+guy · 2015-07-07 03:00 · Score: 2

I disagree. I think coders should all be forced to learn to learn the intricacies of investment.
Because, naturally, there can only be ONE human thinking skill which rules them all, and which people who are gifted in other areas should be forced to struggle through.
Re:useless idea person... by Dcnjoe60 · 2015-07-07 03:01 · Score: 1

And yet, when you look at the stalwarts of today's tech industry, most of them excelled, not because of their technical skills but because of their ideas. The best technical skills in the world don't mean a thing if you can't envision how to use them for something others want. Put differently, it is a lot easier to teach others to code than it is to teach them to think creatively.
No, they didn't succeed because of their ideas, but because they managed to put money where their mouth is, and got the finances to turn the idea into something that can be sold.
Not in the beginning. Take Microsoft, for example, it was a pretty small company headed by a college dropout that saw what DOS could do and what a number Xerox products could do when their actual creators couldn't. That's called vision or ideas. Yes, they had to finance those things, but usually, that isn't the visionary part of the work.
Even beyond the startup stage, Microsoft and Apple weren't/aren't innovators in the traditional sense. Apple didn't make the first music player or the first smartphone, for instance. What both companies were very good at, under Gates and Jobs was articulating their vision of what technology could be used for and then marketing it to the masses.
It is vision that leads to real success and that is something that isn't taught in school.
Re:useless idea person... by CustomSolvers2 · 2015-07-07 03:46 · Score: 1

Bill Gates might have been a brilliant guy, making the right decisions in the right moment. But he was also a rich kid, born and raised in a moderately-rich family (although he certainly made his family much richer). He could even afford to not pay attention to what Harvard had to teach him (an opportunity that just a few people have).

Same stories with most of these famous IT entrepreneurs: they had the attitude (and some of them even the knowledge) but, on top of everything, they had the opportunity. And this opportunity was usually handed to them by their rich families on a silver platter. Most of these people certainly put their money (influence, contacts, not-having-the-need-to-work reality, etc.) where their mouths were.

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Custom Solvers 2.0 = Alvaro Carballo Garcia = varocarbas.
Re:useless idea person... by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 03:46 · Score: 1

Two words: Dunning Kruger.
By introducing people to coding, you'll give them a false sense of omniscience to the field. Then, when your MBA with 2 CS classes under his belt comes up to you and says "When in the sam hill is that custom OS gonna be finished?"
"We're still 12 weeks out, minimum."
"Pah, when I was in college, my professor had us code an entire OS in one week! What am I paying you for?"
Re:useless idea person... by timholman · 2015-07-07 04:00 · Score: 5, Insightful

TL;DR: It's a waste to try to make everyone into a programmer, but it's not a waste to teach everyone about programming.
I am the last person to argue against a well-rounded education, or to giving people the opportunity to learn whatever they want. But the idea that "we should teach everyone about programming" is, in my opinion, another example of the educational fad mindset that sweeps through society every few years, i.e. "subject XYZ is so important, that we should make everyone learn about it!"
Sorry, but I disagree. If you want better-rounded students, make them take more courses in science or mathematics. Make them learn a second language, or learn to play an instrument. Have them take classes in rhetoric, and learn to make presentations in front of an audience. There are dozens of different classical subjects that will do a better job of providing that broad base of experience and knowledge that you'll need as you go through life.
But programming is too specialized. Now many Slashdot readers will disagree, but most of them think of programming as something so familiar that they can't comprehend why anyone wouldn't see the value in learning about it. Let me provide a different example to illustrate my point.
Consider: Electronics is everywhere today, embedded in almost everything we use in our work or our entertainment. Since electronics is so incredibly important to modern society, we must encourage every student to learn about electronic circuits. Let's have them all design and build simple electronic circuits. At the very least, let's have them all work with Arduino boards and learn the fundamentals of hardware systems.
If one were to make that argument, it would be dismissed out of hand, as it would for any one of a hundred other topics that are absolutely integral to a high-tech civilization. Electronics is too complex and specialized; at best you could only provide a cursory experience to students. Would it still be valuable to some of them? No doubt. But does that mean we should make everyone take a class in electronics? Not at all.
Programming is no different. Learning to program requires learning a considerable amount of syntax to accomplish anything significant, and the "language-du-jour" (do you teach Basic? Fortran? Cobol? Java? C+? Swift?, etc.) changes constantly. So what you wind up with is a cursory exposure to the topic, in a language that may or may even be considered mainstream in five years. It might lead some people to learning more about programming, but does that mean it was the best use of society's limited educational resources, as opposed to a broader instruction in science or mathematics? I would argue "no".
In the ideal world, we'd all be Renaissance men and women, but in the real world people tend to focus strictly on what interests them, or on what makes money. Educational fads come and go, but they never make much traction against basic human nature. Saying "everyone should learn about programming" is no different.
Re:useless idea person... by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 04:05 · Score: 0

You may not live in the US and/or hear all of the Radio ads, TV ads, read all of the "X that code" materials being handed out on the street, etc... Perhaps you do and just pay no attention...
Re:useless idea person... by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 04:56 · Score: 0

Coders SHOULD be forced to learn about investment if they ARE GOING TO RUN AN INVESTMENT COMPANY. Likewise, even the idea person should learn to code if THEY ARE GOING TO RUN A TECH COMPANY.
Glad you proved the point.
Re:useless idea person... by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 05:00 · Score: 0

I'm constantly surprised at how much of a limited worldview people like you express.
As someone mentioned below, we all use electricity, are you suggesting we all become electricians too?
If the OP's objective was to become a great programmer, that's fine and I would assume that they would focus their career and goals in that direction.
If the objective is to become an entrepreneur, that's a very different skillset and your programming skills will not translate over to the business skills required to get a business up and running, as well as growing the business. Its very unlikely that they'll continue to hack their code while they are hiring team members, dealing with payroll, working with investors, building marketing plans and campaigns, etc.
Idea guys, marketing guys, technical architects, programmers, testers, they all have their place in a growing business.
If you guys are so against business - I'm assuming you're working for barter and living in your tents?
(rolls eyes).
Re:useless idea person... by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 05:04 · Score: 0

Again, you miss the point. They aren't saying that every person on the street needs to learn to code, but if you are an idea person in the TECH AND SOFTWARE industry you should know how to code.
Someone who fixes a roof for a living doesn't need to learn to code. Neither does the President.
Re:useless idea person... by danlip · 2015-07-07 07:04 · Score: 1

A two-week short course sounds pretty silly. 2 semesters sounds better. And a well-structured programming course for non-majors should focus less on the particulars of a certain language and more on how to think logically and break a problem down into parts. These are skills that many people lack and which will serve people well even if they never do more programming in their life. It just happens that programming is an ideal structure to teach this in. This is also why geometry is a good thing to teach, even if most people don't use it - it's the only exposure many people get to the concept of a logical proof.
Programming also helps with communication - I can write a set of instructions for another human to follow, and think of every detail and break it down step by step. This is a skill I got from programming. Most people can't do it.
Plus there is a need for everyone to have a well rounded education to understand the things in the world around them. This includes the humanities, physics, chemistry, biology, and technology.
Re:useless idea person... by serviscope_minor · 2015-07-07 07:25 · Score: 1

But once again we see this too-common meme popping up yet again; that everyone should learn to code
Well, you're guilty of spreading the meme that not everyone should.
We expect everyone to learn to do maths, to be able to read, to know something of history an geography, to be able to speak a foreign language, to understand the basics of physics, chemistry and biology, not to mention analyse works of literature and draw a picture. Understanding something about computers (i.e. learning to code) is a prefectly good complement to those.
You could substitue any of the major school subjects with programming in your post.
Are you arguing that literally nothing should be taught save what is of interest to the student while they're at school, or are you arguing that programming is fundementally different from other subjects?

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SJW n. One who posts facts.
Re:useless idea person... by serviscope_minor · 2015-07-07 07:28 · Score: 1

If one were to make that argument, it would be dismissed out of hand,
Last I checked, very basic electronics was part of the physics syllabus. It also comes up in DT which is taught at a large number of schools in the UK.

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SJW n. One who posts facts.
Re:useless idea person... by Your.Master · 2015-07-07 09:01 · Score: 2

I learned some very basics about circuits in grade 9 science, which was a mandatory class. You learn about resistors, capacitors, inductors, and make calculations of circuits involving them in DC current. I can't remember if we wired up a breadboard to make lights respond to switches at that time, or if that came later.
Didn't really dive into AC current calculations until we hit classes that were not mandatory, although of course we talked in broad strokes about it.
I don't dismiss the electronics course idea out of hand because I think it's a good idea. Op amps are too much, but you can absolutely introduce kids to simple circuits. I don't think it's fundamentally different from introducing kids to basic chemistry or basic biology, both of which only convey the tip of the iceberg to students.
This said, in elementary school we were exposed to LOGO and the like, and a popular spare time activity was to make "movies" using a simple scripting environment. This was the mid-90s. Honestly I think basic programming is easier to teach than electronics, having had experience with both. It's also more easily "gamified" such that even some students that would never want to program in their spare time, get into it.
It's almost entirely irrelevant what language they are taught in. You really just need loops and branching to give the idea.
Re:useless idea person... by pnutjam · 2015-07-07 09:02 · Score: 1

Sounds like a job for a lawyer, but there will not be a happy customer at the end.

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Cheap storage VM.
Re:useless idea person... by pnutjam · 2015-07-07 09:03 · Score: 1

That's not true, just knowing how to code gives a certain peek into logic. A fatally flawed binary sort of logic, but logic none the less.
We need more logical people.

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Cheap storage VM.
Re:useless idea person... by pnutjam · 2015-07-07 09:06 · Score: 1

Your in too deep. Many of the concepts of programming are totally foreign to most people. Knowing that if/then statements and loops even exist is not a bad thing. I'm not a programmer, but I do alot of scripting and I can read code when necessary.

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Cheap storage VM.
Re:useless idea person... by pnutjam · 2015-07-07 09:09 · Score: 1

They were essentially dumpster divers. MS dug out the trash IBM was throwing away, Apple knew that Motorola had a surplus of chips that could be had cheaply. All these accomplishments were just because they were new to a field and able to capitalize on excesses.

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Cheap storage VM.
Re:useless idea person... by pnutjam · 2015-07-07 09:11 · Score: 1

Yes, at the very least, you need to be an idea person with the cash to hire someon. It must be nice to be in that position.

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Cheap storage VM.
Re:useless idea person... by pnutjam · 2015-07-07 09:13 · Score: 1

Welcome to America, we all have 401k's here.
Now that we all know finance, we're expected to learn all about health care billing next, so we can have some "skin in the game", aside from our health.

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Cheap storage VM.
Re:useless idea person... by pnutjam · 2015-07-07 09:14 · Score: 1

Everyone should know the basics of electricity. What a fuse is, how it flow, what a ground does, etc.

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Cheap storage VM.
Re:useless idea person... by Chalnoth · 2015-07-07 10:16 · Score: 1

If you're going to be in any supervisory position related to technology, learning to code is pretty darned important. If you don't understand what is or isn't doable with regard to the work you are supervising, then you'll be completely incapable of making good decisions. Sure, everybody doesn't need to learn to code. There's no reason for most writers to learn, or a manager in a supermarket chain, or a lawyer, or one of many other positions. But if you can't be an effective "idea person" with regards to software if you don't understand software.
Re:useless idea person... by drinkypoo · 2015-07-07 10:31 · Score: 1

You may not live in the US and/or hear all of the Radio ads, TV ads,
I do, but I don't, respectively. I only watch TV on Netflix. I listen to music from my phone when in the car. Fuck ads.

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"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re:useless idea person... by Bengie · 2015-07-07 12:45 · Score: 1

I wouldn't say it will change how their mind works anymore learning English will help me write novels. At least knowing basic communications is a requirement for any society. Learning what a loop is and how to do math via many individual steps can have some benefit, but I wouldn't put much time into it.
Re:useless idea person... by loonycyborg · 2015-07-07 19:59 · Score: 1

Also, cash is just an abstraction. Why let any clown who games economy system or just inherits this money to decide what gets made and what doesn't?
Re:useless idea person... by tehcyder · 2015-07-07 22:41 · Score: 1

It depends what area you're working in. If you're in advertising or marketing or TV production, surely the ideas people are the important ones?
There are lots of jobs that don't involve writing software.

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To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Re:useless idea person... by tehcyder · 2015-07-07 23:41 · Score: 1

Ideas are cheap. People who actually can code already have loads of their own. There's just no way to be a pure "ideas person".
So what's all the fuss about? If it's so impossible to be a pure ideas person, then they will disappear.

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To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Re:useless idea person... by tehcyder · 2015-07-07 23:42 · Score: 1

Coders SHOULD be forced to learn about investment if they ARE GOING TO RUN AN INVESTMENT COMPANY. Likewise, even the idea person should learn to code if THEY ARE GOING TO RUN A TECH COMPANY.
Glad you proved the point.
All companies are investment companies once you get past the one man and his dog stage.

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To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Re:useless idea person... by tehcyder · 2015-07-07 23:48 · Score: 1

Everyone should know the basics of electricity. What a fuse is, how it flow, what a ground does, etc.
Yes, but it depends on your definition of "basics." Not everyone needs to know as much as an electrical engineer (or electrician).
Car analogy: if you're going to drive you need to know how to check tyre pressures, and fill up with petrol, but you don't need to be able to build an engine from raw materials.

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To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Re:useless idea person... by loonycyborg · 2015-07-08 01:28 · Score: 1

How can something that doesn't exist disappear?
Re:useless idea person... by pnutjam · 2015-07-08 02:44 · Score: 1

Yes, but you should know how to change a tire, where the gas goes, why you need a battery, etc... We're talking about basics. This gives you the opportunity to learn more when necessary. If it's a black box, too many people are too intimidated to try.

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Cheap storage VM.
Re:useless idea person... by david_thornley · 2015-07-08 04:31 · Score: 1

At which point the secretary or whoever would just take the papers marked for possible deletion and shred them. Putting a manual step in an otherwise automated process frequently doesn't provide any benefits.

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"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
Re:useless idea person... by david_thornley · 2015-07-08 04:36 · Score: 1

Thing is, I can find lots of similar places that just plain crashed, despite being as well financed. If you look at the companies making home computers at the time of the introduction of the IBM PC, the only one I know that still does is Apple. I'm not as sure about software companies, which would be more ephemeral anyway, but a lot of them just died, despite looking as promising as Microsoft.

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"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes

Seems obvious by asylumx · 2015-07-06 23:32 · Score: 3

I mean I wouldn't expect a non-engineer to be coming up with great ideas for space travel, either. Wild ideas only rarely make it. We hear about stories where those wild ideas from people who have no skill do make it but the vast majority of those wild ideas fall flat.

Re:Seems obvious by jellomizer · 2015-07-07 00:25 · Score: 2

There is a lot of talk about Thinking Outside the Box. However that is rarely useful, and doesn't happen. I have been credited and celebrated for my out of the box solutions to problems. However they were not really outside the box, just not how things were normally done.
1. Everyone has a different box to think in. Their experience determines its size.
2. Many of the ideas may be standard in each box, however some ideas are unique to a box, differences in skill sets determines this.
3. Fear normally keeps us in following "this is how it is done" method. A new method already exists in someones box, you just need to get them to speak up.

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If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Re:Seems obvious by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 01:10 · Score: 0

When I hear 'outside the box' I usually take it to mean lets re-examine our assumptions.
Take this silly made up example (using a literal box). Lets say you have a box with 16 GB of RAM and a decent SSD running your database. Not huge by today's standards. But a few years ago it would have been a rocking box. Yet your database is say 300 GB. If you buy a box with 512 gig suddenly your whole db fits into memory? I call this revisiting assumptions. What if you switch out something that is already there with something WAY better. Would you gain a lot from this? Maybe but it is something you can test against and show it makes things worse or better.
Usually it means 'what if X instead of Y' then you can follow the chain of events from there.
Re:Seems obvious by nine-times · 2015-07-07 01:19 · Score: 2

I think the bar you're setting for "outside the box" might be too high. It reminds me of when people talk about "originality" in art, and dismiss everything as "unoriginal" because it was inspired by something or other. Set a standard so high it can't be reached.
I do a lot of what people consider "outside the box" thinking, but in my mind, it's really just "taking a step back". Are we asking the right questions? Are we trying to accomplish the right goal? To give a simple/obvious example, a client says that they want Microsoft Office, but don't have the money to pay for it. If everyone else is scrambling around looking for sales and discounts, then it might be "outside the box" thinking just to say, maybe we should download a copy of LibreOffice, let them test it, and see if it does everything they need. The box you were in was "buying a cheap copy of MS Office", and you thought outside of the box.
Re:Seems obvious by jellomizer · 2015-07-07 01:25 · Score: 1

I am not sure if I follow your example.
Normally getting a faster box, will improve performance is a given. The more outside the box would be the following.
With having your DB running in volatile RAM. What changes are needed to prevent sudden power outages. Would the time it would take do do a safe shutdown be increased ( as more data will need to be saved )
Being that it is running in RAM, should we go back to a slower/cheaper magnetic drives again.
Outside of the box, is considering items that are beyond the normal.

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If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Re:Seems obvious by Bengie · 2015-07-07 12:49 · Score: 1

With having your DB running in volatile RAM. What changes are needed to prevent sudden power outages.
Not for long. Non-volatile system memory is around the corner. already working, just getting it into mass production.
Re:Seems obvious by tehcyder · 2015-07-07 23:52 · Score: 1

I mean I wouldn't expect a non-engineer to be coming up with great ideas for space travel, either. Wild ideas only rarely make it. We hear about stories where those wild ideas from people who have no skill do make it but the vast majority of those wild ideas fall flat.
The great ideas in space travel would be things like JFK's "let's put a man on the moon by the end of the decade".

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To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Re:Seems obvious by tehcyder · 2015-07-08 00:29 · Score: 1

I think the bar you're setting for "outside the box" might be too high. It reminds me of when people talk about "originality" in art, and dismiss everything as "unoriginal" because it was inspired by something or other. Set a standard so high it can't be reached.
I do a lot of what people consider "outside the box" thinking, but in my mind, it's really just "taking a step back". Are we asking the right questions? Are we trying to accomplish the right goal? To give a simple/obvious example, a client says that they want Microsoft Office, but don't have the money to pay for it. If everyone else is scrambling around looking for sales and discounts, then it might be "outside the box" thinking just to say, maybe we should download a copy of LibreOffice, let them test it, and see if it does everything they need. The box you were in was "buying a cheap copy of MS Office", and you thought outside of the box.
I think proper "outside the box" thinking in that situation would be more like "how about if we built a time machine and went back to the 1970s and invented Microsoft Office before Microsoft even existed as a company so that we owned it ourselves".
It's about as likely as getting most clients to use something other than Microsoft Office.

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To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Re:Seems obvious by asylumx · 2015-07-08 14:02 · Score: 1

True, but #1 he probably isn't actually the one who came up with the idea, and #2 as I said, wild ideas do make it, but rarely.

As long as they're not forced by Big+Hairy+Ian · 2015-07-06 23:35 · Score: 2

Great idea but not everyone is cut out for programming. Also if they're going to learn programming it's worth them learning comprehensivley not just doing a bit of Java script as the more they know the better they'll understand what the pitfalls are.

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Build a Man a Fire, and He'll Be Warm for a Day. Set a Man on Fire, and He'll Be Warm for the Rest of His Life.

Re:As long as they're not forced by jellomizer · 2015-07-07 00:38 · Score: 3

Just like how we are forced to learn how to read, write, and do arithmetic.
In today's world, everyone should have a basic level of programming skills, I don't think it needs to be comprehensive, but to a level where they can solve simple problems and know where your limitations are. Basic Programming literacy should be at least the following
IF conditionals (with AND and OR)
LOOPs
Varables
and nesting.
Mostly a CS101 type of stuff. But that should be generic everyone is taught skills.
Not so they can grow up to be programmers, and software developers, but as a tool to train their brain in different methods of solving issues.
We have Liberal Art skills, that gives critical thinking
We have Mathematics that gives us tools that we can use to solve problems.
Computer science is actually a good way to glue both together. You want to create, you have an problem, you can use the tools of math in different ways to help create a solution.

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If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Re:As long as they're not forced by nine-times · 2015-07-07 01:44 · Score: 1

I disagree. I mean, I agree that not everyone should be a programmer, but I think everyone should have a general idea of how programming works, if possible, since it drastically improves a person's understanding of how computers work, and what computers can (or can't) do.
I know a bit of programming. Not enough to consider myself a programmer, but enough to write little bash/ruby/powersheel/php/javascript when I need to. I find it tremendously useful, and I don't like the idea that I shouldn't have learned as much as I have because I didn't learn "comprehensively". I don't like the process enough to want to do it full time for my job, but it's nice when I can do something by spending 20 minutes writing a script instead of 6 hours doing it by hand.
And back on topic, I do think that if you're a manager or "idea person", it's not necessary to know all the nitty-gritty details, but you'll be more successful if you have a general understanding of how things work. I've managed people who were better at their particular job than I would be. Network techs that know more about the internal structure of packets, and who can set up all the Cisco equipment with the command line without looking anything up. Web developers who remember off the top of their head which CSS quirks are in which browser, and who are simply better designers than I am. I've even managed programmers. I'm not a programmer, but when I was having trouble describing exactly what I wanted something to do, it was helpful to write up some pseudocode and say, "Can you make this real?"
Managers don't need to be able to do everything their employees can do as well as their employees can do it. That's a mistake a lot of people make-- for example, to think that the best programmer in a group is inherently the best person to manage a group of programmers. It's definitely important that the person know enough about programming to be able to speak intelligently about it, and to avoid giving stupid direction (or at least to be able to understand and consider when someone tells you that your directions are stupid), but management honestly is a different set of skills.
Re:As long as they're not forced by 0100010001010011 · 2015-07-07 02:11 · Score: 2

Not everyone is cut out for making effective Power Point presentations but we got rid of standalone presentation makers years ago. It's what my dad used to do. Now everyone puts together their own presentations (For better or worse). Coding is going to end up being the same may.
You'll have mid level managers that can do it effectively to convey their idea. There will be mid level managers that put together terrible pieces of code.
My manager learned VBA and uses it for everything. It's gotten to the point where his year end reviews, budget, etc are all one massively interconnected set of spread sheets. But it means he works 1/10th as hard as his counterparts who still do it the old way 'by hand'
Re:As long as they're not forced by Gestahl · 2015-07-07 08:27 · Score: 1

> Just like how we are forced to learn how to read, write, and do arithmetic.

Not to mention basic set logic using Venn diagrams (All feebs are groobs, and some groobs are neeves, so are some feebs neeves?), and I'm sure some elementary propositional logic is still taught (i.e. your standard Boolean stuff) at some point.

If you really think about it, what is good programming but reading and writing complex arithmetic and logic (along with short prose comments, one would hope) in a clear and concise manner? Thought of that way, is not programming the culmination of all the basic skills we are taught in school?

The problem with that by NotSoHeavyD3 · 2015-07-06 23:36 · Score: 1

You might get the idea person who codes horrifically badly who decides it’s a better idea jobwise for them to horde those idea and code things themselves. (This is to make it hard for the company to fire them and there’s no oversight since they’re usually a manager so they can do it their way.) Then after 5 years of their coding monstrosity they dump their “Critical program” on software engineering because they’re so important they can move on to better things.

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Did you know 80 to 90% of the moderators on slashdot wouldn't recognize a troll even if one dragged them under a bridge.

Re:The problem with that by jellomizer · 2015-07-07 00:50 · Score: 1

Yea. Everyone thinks all others code sucks.
There is a degree of temperament from experience that we need to account for that.
Now what we as Engineers can do, is improve on the design, get rid of those calls to Microsoft Access, and switch it to a more sturdy relational database. Fix the indenting so it makes sense. Finding the Copy and paste code and make functions and procedures out of them. And sometimes you will just need to tolerate the weirdness and when you figure it out put a comment explaining it.
Granted the Code isn't professional. But it got the job done, and now there is an open software engineer job to maintain and expand the code where they wouldn't be one.
For the most part a new idea, doesn't come with funding to pay for a software engineer. So you will have to do it yourself. Life ain't perfect.

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If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.

I disagree by CustomSolvers2 · 2015-07-06 23:43 · Score: 2

"Idea persons" should focus on "ideas", on "big pictures", on "marketing perspectives" or on whatever they do; and let programming and taking care of making-things-work side of things to engineering-minded people.

Although having some programming knowledge does seem a good complement for anyone's education (like maths or history), transmitting ideas like "anyone can code, because it is very easy" is not good to anyone (equivalently to what happens with most of lies). Logically anyone can become a programmer, but having certain attitude and knowledge is required.

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Custom Solvers 2.0 = Alvaro Carballo Garcia = varocarbas.

Re:I disagree by phantomfive · 2015-07-07 03:55 · Score: 1

"Idea persons" should focus on "ideas", on "big pictures", on "marketing perspectives" or on whatever they do;

Sounds like you don't have a very clear perspective of what "idea persons" do. Maybe you are not the best person to give advice to them. Maybe Steph Ree's advice is better than yours, because she does have that perspective.

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"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Re:I disagree by CustomSolvers2 · 2015-07-07 04:24 · Score: 1

Ooops! I forgot about how important is highlighting here when you are using SARCASM.

To me, "idea person" defines the kind of people with no technical knowledge who likes getting involved in technical-related issues (they consider themselves over-technical; much more relevant than technical people). They usually rely on expressions like "seeing the big picture" or "from the marketing point of view...". My comment was precisely addressed to this kind of persons, also called "smoke sellers" (it is a direct translation from a Spanish expression). In some cases, they might even have got a computer engineering degree, but not programming knowledge (most of them don't like programming or even computers).

On the other hand, I understand that this article refers to a slightly different sub-type of "idea person" (i.e., a "smoke seller" with money, where selling the idea is not required), but their general attitude seem similar to me and that's why my original request of "please, don't let them think that can code!" is equally applicable to them.

I hope that you have been convinced by these arguments and, consequently, I might still be allowed to share my humble opinion on this matter, My Sir/Lady.

PS: the last sentence is also sarcasm.

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Custom Solvers 2.0 = Alvaro Carballo Garcia = varocarbas.
Re:I disagree by phantomfive · 2015-07-07 04:29 · Score: 1

You can give your opinion on anything you want lol, but your point of view is from that of a programmer who doesn't understand what non-programmers do. CEOs get hired because they have skills, not usually because of their programming ability.

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"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Re:I disagree by CustomSolvers2 · 2015-07-07 04:56 · Score: 1

See... I don't want to start a miles-long discussion here. The whole point of my comment was quite clear: ideas like "programming is easy" are not true. You have to like it (and learn a lot, work a lot, etc.), what is not the case with those persons: they don't like the programmer's life style.

In summary, if you want to become a programmer, do it. If you prefer to live in the "idea-man" way, better don't fool yourself: you will never become a good enough programmer and will always have to hire people to make your ideas come true.

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Custom Solvers 2.0 = Alvaro Carballo Garcia = varocarbas.
Re:I disagree by Gestahl · 2015-07-07 08:37 · Score: 1

CEOs are mostly professional negotiators, crowd-workers, and public faces so far as I can tell, coupled with having a Rolodex full of contacts with money.
Re:I disagree by phantomfive · 2015-07-07 10:36 · Score: 1

Those things are definitely aspects of some CEOs. Not every CEO has every skill. Elon Musk is really good at being the public face of his company, but Douglas Mcmillon is not. Ellen Pao seems to have negative points in that skill column. Some other skills:

Good at sales
Good at managing a supply pipeline
Good at motivating/training underlings
Good at understanding what customers will buy
Good at recognizing and hiring quality talent
Good at choosing a direction for the company.

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"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."

Listen to the old guy by rfengr · 2015-07-06 23:46 · Score: 4, Insightful

Listen to the old guy. He will retire early with a nice nest egg. That beats being a coding wage slave. Also shows you the 0.1%'s perception of CS people; you are just labor to be used, in the grand scheme of things.

Re:Listen to the old guy by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 00:08 · Score: 0

He wasn't saying that you shouldn't be an idea person, but rather that the idea person should have some base concepts of how his idea is going from soup to nuts. 30 years ago you didn't necessarily need to know computer "stuff" because computers weren't around, and therefore weren't part of the process; everything could be thought of in "real" space.
Today, if you are going to have a new idea, it may help to understand the technologies that are going to power it, so you can have somewhat realistic expections. Otherwise you're just an old dude rambling about how all your stuff is going to be in the "cloud" without knowing what the heck you're talking about.
Re:Listen to the old guy by Kester1964 · 2015-07-07 00:13 · Score: 2, Informative

Here are some engineers who became very rich. They needed investors to start the company and through that company's success become investors in new companies.
Would that 60 year old entrepreneur have the vision these guys had to not only get rich, but make things and have helped shape the world we live in today
Re:Listen to the old guy by gweihir · 2015-07-07 00:17 · Score: 3, Insightful

And in the process, he will have had a massive negative influence on society. Too many like him and everything collapses.

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Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Re:Listen to the old guy by Bengie · 2015-07-07 00:17 · Score: 5, Interesting

There is an over-abundance of mediocre programmers, making them easily replaceable.There is very high demand for programmers, just not of the mediocre variety. Where I work, the problem domain is complex enough that we have about a 1 year learning curve before a programmer brings in a net profit. It takes us 6 months to a year to find a new programmer. We're specialized enough that both Google and Microsoft have partnered with us so we can help them.

Finding good programmers is hard.
Re:Listen to the old guy by Kester1964 · 2015-07-07 00:26 · Score: 1

Here are some engineers who became very rich. They needed investors to start the company and through that company's success become investors in new companies.
Would that 60 year old entrepreneur have the vision these guys had to not only get rich, but make things and have helped shape the world we live in today
Fixed Link
Re:Listen to the old guy by BVis · 2015-07-07 00:46 · Score: 1

Being a "coding wage slave" is much more attractive to me than being a sleazeball big money "if I don't understand it it can't be important" douchebag. Those folks have to fuck over half the country to get to that early retirement. I would rather not be that guy, even if it means I can't retire early.

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Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
Re:Listen to the old guy by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 00:58 · Score: 0

Computers weren't around 30 years ago? According to my HP-41C calculator, that was 1985. They most certainly were around "way back" then.
Re:Listen to the old guy by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 01:02 · Score: 0

Today, those same people would have been bankrupted in court over non-compete and IP ownership clauses in their employment contracts.
Re:Listen to the old guy by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 01:03 · Score: 0

That's so typical American ...
Look at the numbers! For every guy that "succeeds" there are thousands of others that had the same conditions, similar ideas and put in just as much, or more work into their idea. Look at Facebook. It wasn't the best social network at it's time. It still isn't. But a little dumb luck here and there were enough to make it a giant today.
Because of this mentality, "I'll make it big someday" people never settle for second or third place, and work and work until they burn out and will be grateful for a decent pension plan.
Re:Listen to the old guy by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 01:06 · Score: 0

Unfortunately, when most people think of programmers, they think of the most common variety - web programmers. Unfortunately, what most don't realize is that web programmers in general are to programming what community colleges are to higher education (though there may be exceptions) .
Re:Listen to the old guy by jellomizer · 2015-07-07 01:08 · Score: 1

Yes Listen to the old guy, he has years of experience, and is at a point where he has little to fear from retaliation. You may be asking to solve problems that had been solved before. We have found cycles in computing where old ideas come back up new again.
The early computers: They just ran one program for one user.
Mainframes: One computer for many programs and users either with Time Sharing or multi-tasking
Desktops: A computer for each person again.
Cloud Computing: Many people accessing a computing infrastructure again.
We get cycles where improvements in communication push us towards a remote hosted solution, then we get improvements where processing get faster and cheaper so we are better off having our own stuff.
The old guy has gone threw such cycles, and when they swap again, there is a tool-set in his bag of tricks for this case.
Now that said... The Old Guy may also suffers from not embracing the new technology, and may no longer be as sharp as he use to be. Because as things do cycle, the new version actually solves issues from the previous incarnation.
The Desktop is more reliable and affordable than the old Univax
A Cloud infrastructure is more fault tolerant and has less single point of failures then a mainframe.
So many of the concerns are less of an issue. As well they may be new issues and tradeoffs that need to be considered.
Also...
There needs to be passing down the torch to the younger generation and stepping aside. The Baby Boomers are having a hard time with this. With the set of Millennial bashing, trying to stay young where they should be considering retirement. So they are not passing down their wisdom and training replacements, but staying in the job until they die, leaving a gap that is hard to fill. Creating gaps towards promotion. That Entry Level programmer didn't get enough training for the Sr. programmer. So when the Sr. Programmers leaves the Entry level isn't skilled enough to take his place.
By the time you peak in your career, you should be working on a succession plan, trying to get the new guys to work with you, you may end up learning some stuff from the new guys and the new guys will learn stuff from you.

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If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Re:Listen to the old guy by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 01:16 · Score: 1

The law of supply and demand. If you can't find people and most likely can't keep them, then you probably aren't paying enough in the first place. And no bullshit about industry averages and such.
If the work is as specialized as you imply then the scarcity of those skills should be more than enough to justify the extra costs.
There are a lot of brilliant people in this world, but unfortunately, from the corporate point of view, they're also human. You know, with rights, needs and personal lives ...
Re:Listen to the old guy by Viol8 · 2015-07-07 01:19 · Score: 3, Insightful

"A Cloud infrastructure is more fault tolerant and has less single point of failures then a mainframe."
Really? How many times has Azure gone done now? Mainframes are built to be resilient - they have to be as most of them need to run 24/7/365 for decades at a time. When a major bank decides to run its back end processing systems on a "cloud" service then I might sit up and take cloud systems seriously.
"So they are not passing down their wisdom and training replacements, but staying in the job until they die, leaving a gap that is hard to fill. "
If the old guy is doing something like COBOL which the younger coders don't want to learn then whats the alternative?
"By the time you peak in your career, you should be working on a succession plan, trying to get the new guys to work with you, "
Don't be daft. Its not the coders job to sort out training for his potential replacement, thats up to company management to arrange it. Most coders I know have enough on their hands just trying to meet deadlines without being some sort of kiddy coder support service.
Re:Listen to the old guy by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 01:27 · Score: 0

Fine, computers weren't as prevalent in 1985 as they are today. They certainly were around, but one could run an entire business and never use one. Today that isn't feasible.
Re:Listen to the old guy by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 01:32 · Score: 0

That's why all the big tech companies tend to be started by financiers...
Re:Listen to the old guy by jellomizer · 2015-07-07 01:40 · Score: 1

I just checked that last 90 days of ncidents for eastern US for Azure. And I saw 19 incidents. None of them accounts for a full outage, only a particular feature may be down.
I have worked with mainframe maintenance. For one this "24/7/365 for decades at a time" isn't really true. As even the best maintained system will have scheduled outages. Otherwise you may have a "God help us if this system ever fails" issue, as a failure over such time could show off all the other systems that have failed.
I have seen such long running systems, up for years, without being maintained. The system just did its thing and did it well. So much so that the application ran completely in active RAM, and once the system went down, we found out the drives failed a long time ago. Why didn't we see it in the logs? Well the logs were attempted to be written to the disk. And the operator at the time had a tendency to ignore and clear out console errors on the terminal.
Also much like Azure, while the System may be running, there are often parts of it that may fail, and would need to get restarted. Stop and restart the database. Unmounted the drive and replace a new one.

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If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Re:Listen to the old guy by Viol8 · 2015-07-07 02:33 · Score: 1

"None of them accounts for a full outage, only a particular feature may be down."
Total failure:
18th August 2014
19th november 2014
"As even the best maintained system will have scheduled outages"
Scheduled outages are one thing, failures are another entirely. And usually with mainframes its only a few nodes/VMs that are taken offline at any given time. The hardware itself keeps on trucking.
"So much so that the application ran completely in active RAM, and once the system went down, we found out the drives failed a long time ago"
Unless no one ever bothered to do a backup I find that hard to believe.
Re:Listen to the old guy by bkr1_2k · 2015-07-07 03:05 · Score: 1

Unfortunately, when most people think of programmers, they think of the most common variety - web programmers. Unfortunately, what most don't realize is that web programmers in general are to programming what community colleges are to higher education (though there may be exceptions) .
A stepping stone that proves you can be trained at a fraction of the cost? Your elitist bullshit about 4 year universities is just that... bullshit. Coding isn't magic. Yes truly good coders aren't common but just because someone learns a practical skill doesn't mean they're incapable of learning more "sophisticated" skills as well.

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"Growing old is inevitable; growing up is optional."
Re:Listen to the old guy by phantomfive · 2015-07-07 03:56 · Score: 1

What kind of programming do you do? It sounds fun.

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"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Re:Listen to the old guy by __aaclcg7560 · 2015-07-07 04:12 · Score: 1

The girls in the seventh grade told me I came from a "poor" family because I had a Commodore VIC-20 and not an Apple II. That was 1983.
Re:Listen to the old guy by jellomizer · 2015-07-07 05:13 · Score: 1

How many down times do Mainframes get per year...
I work with mainframe systems... And they go down 3 or 4 times a year. Sure it is not a full system freeze, but enough to stop work. You are just hating cloud because it is buzzwordy and afraid that it will take your job.

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If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Re:Listen to the old guy by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 07:43 · Score: 0

The people 'fucking you over' are not your fellow employees. It is the assholes who give huge contracts to places like lockheed martin, et al to build things like 1-trillion dollar jets that don't work as advertised.
Re:Listen to the old guy by Chalnoth · 2015-07-07 10:17 · Score: 1

What does his retirement package have to do with how much others should listen to him?

Or maybe it is a burden... by QuietLagoon · 2015-07-06 23:50 · Score: 2

...Being able to design and develop is liberating because that lets you make stuff..../quote> That citation comes from a person who does happen to find it liberating to be able to design and develop.

.
What if a person does not find that liberating but burdensome? Why push someone to do something they find to be burdensome?

This article looks like a case of I like it, therefore everyone likes it.

Ideas are overrated by X10 · 2015-07-06 23:51 · Score: 5, Insightful

Ideas are heavily overrated. It's the execution that makes the difference.

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no, I don't have a sig

Re:Ideas are overrated by CurryCamel · 2015-07-07 00:33 · Score: 1

Execution is heavily overrated too, at least here on /..
100% perfect exectution usually don't turn a bad idea to a good product, but a great idea, even with flaky execution, can be a commercial success.
Re:Ideas are overrated by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 00:42 · Score: 0

The irony is the article quotes the COO of Snapchat, a privacy-oriented messaging app that doesn't protect user's privacy. The execution of the communication, marketing and sale of the idea meant more than the implementation of the idea (product).
The vast majority of start-ups these days seem to be akin to pump-and-dump stock schemes, sell the idea of the idea, gain market share and hope to be bought out. Implementation matters little. But maybe that is just a symptom of the start-up bubble that we are living in now, where product valuations are so absurd that meaning has been stripped.
In the current absurdity of the market, maybe the 60-year old is right, if the above is how you gauge success. Being a snake-oil salesman is easy when people are rich and stupid. When the bubble bursts, things may return to normal.
Re:Ideas are overrated by GuB-42 · 2015-07-07 05:11 · Score: 1

100% perfect execution can turn a bad idea into something that is still bad but sells well.
Flaky execution of a great idea can be a commercial success for your competitors after they take the idea and execute it better.

can vs. should by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-06 23:53 · Score: 0

I agree with Rhee.

If you don't know how to program then:
- you do not know what the time it takes to build something is (time-cost)
- you do not understand the complexity level of the software (reliability, extensibility, architecture requirements)
- you do not know what you can do, your imagination is limited only to the imagination of the consumer

If you look at Steve Jobs, he made things that the "idea person" didn't know they wanted. He was able to make great leaps in the market because he was strongly and intimately connected with the technology. He led the world because he was a leader in development as well as a leader in understanding consumer taste.

Very finance specific by Errol+backfiring · 2015-07-06 23:55 · Score: 4, Interesting

a 60-year-old entrepreneur who made himself a fortune on Wall Street

The con, sorry, finance industry is one of the few areas where sane thinking only leads to people jumping ship instead of production. In real professions, you'd better know what you are talking about.

I always wonder how anyone with more than a half brain cell can work in the finance industry and still look at himself in the mirror each morning.

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Nae king! Nae laird! Nae yurrupiean pressedent! We willna be fooled again!

Re:Very finance specific by gweihir · 2015-07-07 00:15 · Score: 4, Interesting

I always wonder how anyone with more than a half brain cell can work in the finance industry and still look at himself in the mirror each morning.
Apparently, 1 in 100 persons is a psychopath. In the finance industries, among CEOs, military leaders and politicians, that rate is much worse. And there are always the narcissists, the authoritarian followers and the plain stupid. How do you think "they" get anybody to fight wars, to spy on everybody, etc.?

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Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Re:Very finance specific by Viol8 · 2015-07-07 01:12 · Score: 2

"How do you think "they" get anybody to fight wars, to spy on everybody, etc.?"
Well its a good thing that someone is willing to fight wars and undertake spying or we'd all be speaking german and goose stepping to work. Yeah I know, Godwin etc, but in this case its a valid counterpoint.
Re: Very finance specific by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 01:34 · Score: 0

Envious much? Face it: those 1 in 100 are the successful ones. They lead, you follow; they rule, you obey. Willing or not. The pack needs leaders and they've got the right stuff.
Re:Very finance specific by drinkypoo · 2015-07-07 01:48 · Score: 1

Apparently, 1 in 100 persons is a psychopath. In the finance industries, among CEOs, military leaders and politicians, that rate is much worse. And there are always the narcissists, the authoritarian followers and the plain stupid. How do you think "they" get anybody to fight wars, to spy on everybody, etc.?
Not too long ago there was something going around from a cop saying he thought 15% were good cops, 15% were bad cops, and the rest were just followers who would go along with whatever was happening around them. Cop jobs will tend to attract bullies more than other jobs, so the percentages might be skewed, but I think we'd find that maybe only 1% of the population is psychopathic, but at least 5-10% is also sociopathic.

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"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re: Very finance specific by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 02:16 · Score: 0

I work in the finance industry necause it's trivial work that pays twice as much as hard work.
Re:Very finance specific by westlake · 2015-07-07 02:38 · Score: 2

I always wonder how anyone with more than a half brain cell can work in the finance industry and still look at himself in the mirror each morning.
One of the least attractive qualities of the geek is his readiness to denigrate skills he doesn't have and doesn't understand, marketing and finance being among the most obvious.
Re:Very finance specific by drinkypoo · 2015-07-07 02:44 · Score: 2

Well its a good thing that someone is willing to fight wars and undertake spying or we'd all be speaking german and goose stepping to work.
Political skullduggery led to WWI led to WWII. So no, without people willing to fight wars and undertake spying there would never have been a WWI, let alone a WWII.

Yeah I know, Godwin etc, but in this case its a valid counterpoint.
No, because it's not even a valid argument.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re:Very finance specific by blue9steel · 2015-07-07 03:28 · Score: 4, Insightful

I'm pretty sure that was a comment on morals rather than skill difficulty.
Re:Very finance specific by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 03:31 · Score: 0

No fuck you marketing sells us shit we don't need and finance is horseshit.
I'll grant finance people usually seem to be smart but marketing people are like 75% fucking idiots speaking pseudo-scientific horseshit
Re:Very finance specific by Viol8 · 2015-07-07 03:55 · Score: 1

Well there are always going to be psychopaths who start wars - its up to good people to finish them. Its a pity people like you don't appreciate the sacrifice others made for you to have your comfortable 21st century existence , but there we go, ideology trumps reality once more.
Re:Very finance specific by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 03:56 · Score: 0

Psychopaths are attracted to jobs that offer (a sense of) power. Such as management positions where you get to delegate, or jobs where you get other people to listen to you (police).
Luckily, you're very unlikely to encounter a psychopath in jobs that don't offer (a sense of) power, such as childcare.
Re:Very finance specific by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 04:00 · Score: 1

I don't consider a lack of morality a "skill", I consider it a trait. The best "finance" people have low to no regard for other people's well being. They prey on people in society that do have morals.
"It's just a job" does not make a successful stock broker. "I'll do what I want to get ahead no matter who I'm fucking" does. I can sympathize with the former, but not the latter.
Re:Very finance specific by drinkypoo · 2015-07-07 04:08 · Score: 1

Its a pity people like you don't appreciate the sacrifice others made for you to have your comfortable 21st century existence
The problem with that idea is that these wars are engineered so that certain people can profit, so that's really not what they made a sacrifice for, is it? They were sacrificed on the altar of profit.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re:Very finance specific by plopez · 2015-07-07 05:07 · Score: 1

"I always wonder how anyone with more than a half brain cell can work in the finance industry and still look at himself in the mirror each morning."
BY reading Ayn Rand.

--
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
Re:Very finance specific by gweihir · 2015-07-07 05:44 · Score: 1

You must be stupid, as my argument quite clearly works for the side that initiated the war...

--
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Re:Very finance specific by gweihir · 2015-07-07 05:46 · Score: 3, Insightful

The psychopaths are not enough to start wars. For that they need the stupid, the narcissistic and the authoritarian followers.

--
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Re:Very finance specific by gweihir · 2015-07-07 05:51 · Score: 1

Sounds plausible. The biggest problem are the 70% that will do whatever they are told to do. Those are the ones that rounded up the Jews in the 3rd Reich (there were official orders to do that, after all), the ones that fight for completely senseless and destructive causes like the "War on Drugs" and those that will commit atrocities like charging 6 year olds with sexual assault or arresting teenagers sexting each other for creation of child porn. People that have no moral compass, yet would urgently need one.
The 15% bad apples are a problem, true, but only because 70% do not care. Otherwise they would go directly to prison or never sign on with the police.

--
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Re:Very finance specific by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 05:57 · Score: 0

Funny, one of the least attractive qualities of the marketing/sales drones is his/her readiness to denigrate skills he/she doesn't have and doesn't understand, engineering and technology being among the most obvious.
Re:Very finance specific by JackieBrown · 2015-07-07 06:07 · Score: 1

So what is your solution when someone (maybe for profit or out of madness or for power) invades another country? "Refuse to play?"
Re:Very finance specific by drinkypoo · 2015-07-07 06:15 · Score: 1

So what is your solution when someone (maybe for profit or out of madness or for power) invades another country?
No, you've got it ass-backwards. My solution comes before someone invades another country.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re:Very finance specific by Oligonicella · 2015-07-07 06:24 · Score: 1

They also tend to lash out at those within their community who point out this failing.
Re:Very finance specific by JackieBrown · 2015-07-07 07:38 · Score: 1

You are assuming the entire world adopts your solution.
Re:Very finance specific by pnutjam · 2015-07-07 08:50 · Score: 1

Violence is like duct tape, if it doesn't fix the problem, you didn't use enough.

--
Cheap storage VM.
Re:Very finance specific by Chalnoth · 2015-07-07 10:12 · Score: 1

One big contributing factor is the conflation of wealth with virtue. Pervasive in US culture is the idea that the poor are poor because of some moral failing, and the rich are rich because they are "hard working". If you take as axiomatic that income is correlated with virtue, then any action at all to increase income becomes justified.
If you doubt this, listen to the rhetoric that people use to justify cutting aid to the poor, justifications for not helping homeless people, or the whole "job creator" line you hear from the Republicans.
Re: Very finance specific by Errol+backfiring · 2015-07-07 20:01 · Score: 1

Envious much?
No. I just want a sane society. A society based on cooperation is easier than one based on abuse. I don't want to be a slave, but I don't want slaves myself either. I just want slavery to stop. No, I do not follow.

--
Nae king! Nae laird! Nae yurrupiean pressedent! We willna be fooled again!
Re:Very finance specific by tehcyder · 2015-07-07 22:56 · Score: 1

those that will commit atrocities like charging 6 year olds with sexual assault
Bullshit. Surely you have an age of criminal responsibility where you live? No sane country charges children that young with criminal offences.

--
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Re:Very finance specific by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-08 07:11 · Score: 0

I've heard this said by various morons over the years but when you look at the Germans who lost the war it appears that they still speak German, etc.
Re:Very finance specific by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-08 14:26 · Score: 0

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...

Reality proves another idiot wrong.

How About... by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-06 23:57 · Score: 1

Everyone uses electricity, plumbing, food and cars everyday, how about everyone also learn how to be a mechanic, plumber, chef, farmer and electrician?

Re:How About... by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 00:17 · Score: 0

This is a fantastic idea. Even If I can't do everything in those realms, I should probably have a basic understanding of how electricity, plumbing, food, and cars work.
Re:How About... by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 00:27 · Score: 0

Everyone should at least know how to change a light bulb, install a ceiling fan, fix a leaky faucet, plant a garden and change their own oil. It doesn't mean you have to do it every time, but it sure helps. And understanding how something is done doesn't mean you should be the one to do it...it just means that your mechanic isn't going to be able to pull the wool over your eyes when he tells you he needs to replace the dinglethopter next to the doohickey. The same thing applies to coding. You should at least have a rudimentary (think Wikipedia) knowledge of how a process works. Who knows...it might inspire more in-depth curiosity, and that's never a bad thing. Also, you can garner the respect of your more immersed coding compatriots by asking the right questions about how they plan to design the solution.
Re: How About... by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 00:44 · Score: 1

Everyone uses electricity, plumbing, food and cars everyday, how about everyone also learn how to be a mechanic, plumber, chef, farmer and electrician?
I expect most people have a rudimentary understanding of all these things. After all, school teaches you basic electronics (ac versus dc, what transformers are, ohms law... all taught in early high school science classes), mechanics (again, early high school science - internal combustion engines, levers, newton's laws and such), biology of plants, some gardening (that was primary school here), cookery class... and all that well before you even get into senior years at school. Why we still haven't added basic computer theory (*not* how to use a word processor - I mean a basic understanding of how the things actually work, are programmed etc) into the mix in a consistent manner is beyond me.
You don't need a PhD to have ideas, but I would expect that a grounding in the basics would definitely help if you want good, sane ones.
Re: How About... by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 01:02 · Score: 0

Everyone uses electricity, plumbing, food and cars everyday, how about everyone also learn how to be a mechanic, plumber, chef, farmer and electrician?
I expect most people have a rudimentary understanding of all these things. After all, school teaches you basic electronics (ac versus dc, what transformers are, ohms law... all taught in early high school science classes), mechanics (again, early high school science - internal combustion engines, levers, newton's laws and such), biology of plants, some gardening (that was primary school here), cookery class... and all that well before you even get into senior years at school. Why we still haven't added basic computer theory (*not* how to use a word processor - I mean a basic understanding of how the things actually work, are programmed etc) into the mix in a consistent manner is beyond me.
You'd think that was the case, but here in the US at least, you'd be very very wrong.
Re:How About... by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 09:15 · Score: 0

Sure.. to some degree..
It's good to know at least a bit about how your car works.. how plumbing works.. cooking, (garden optional), and electrical.. yeah, why not..
Don't have to be a master in each area, but know some (?) of the basics.. and .. know what areas you don't know enough about.
Re:How About... by tehcyder · 2015-07-08 00:41 · Score: 1

Everyone should at least know how to change a light bulb, install a ceiling fan, fix a leaky faucet, plant a garden and change their own oil.
Apart from changing a light bulb, these are all things it's easier to pay someone else to do, although a general awareness of how they work is obviously useful (like any knowledge).
Doing something like fixing a leaky faucet or installing a ceiling fan is fine until things go wrong.

--
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it

What an idiot by Calavar · 2015-07-06 23:57 · Score: 2

Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, Larry Page, Sergey Brin -- none of them knew how to code, right?

Re: What an idiot by Calavar · 2015-07-06 23:59 · Score: 1

In case it wasn't immediately obvious, that was sarcasm.
Re: What an idiot by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 00:30 · Score: 0

Those who can code create companies that are ranked #5, #280, and #4 by market cap, while Steve Jobs creates #1. Good point.
Re: What an idiot by Improv · 2015-07-07 01:06 · Score: 1

Steve Jobs leeched off his better cofoiunder.

--
For every problem, there is at least one solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
Re: What an idiot by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 01:07 · Score: 0

Steve Jobs knew how to code (he did create Breakout for Atari), but found he was better at getting other people to do it for him.
Re: What an idiot by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 01:22 · Score: 1

Without Wozniak, there would have been no Apple. Jobs gets most credit because we as a society glorify sociopaths.
Re: What an idiot by Megane · 2015-07-07 01:26 · Score: 1

Breakout for Atari was the all-TTL hardware version. Just chips. And he got Woz to do it.

--
#naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
Re: What an idiot by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 01:48 · Score: 0

Wozniak left Apple in 1985, and the company was in trouble in 1997. He can't possibly have contributed to its recent success.
Re:What an idiot by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 07:41 · Score: 0

All your examples are of software magnates - of which coding is a skill set.
To make the blanket statement that EVERY EVERYWHERE should code is ludicrous.
Re: What an idiot by goose-incarnated · 2015-07-07 07:48 · Score: 1

Those who can code create companies that are ranked #5, #280, and #4 by market cap, while Steve Jobs creates #1. Good point.
Steve Jobs could code, and he did. He preferred not to, though.

--
I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.

fuck that - do something worthwhile by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 00:00 · Score: 0

learn basic and advanced survival skills, go somewhere where you can live off the land, there are many resources on-line which offer this opportunity and it doesn't have to be in a small run down mud hut in Africa.

Get out there and live! Travel! Work in another country!

Do it before your body begins to fail you or you'll be sorry.

Don't let your memories be filled with "coding", energy drinks, lonely nights watching sci-fi reruns or the director's cut of some obscure b-movie no one likes but you and your fake on-line community of fake friends.

Re:fuck that - do something worthwhile by Required+Snark · 2015-07-07 00:04 · Score: 2

Why are you posting on Slashdot when you clearly should be living off the grid in a mud hut in the middle of nowhere. Even better, if you were in a mud hut off the grid we wouldn't have to put up with your drivel.

--
Why is Snark Required?
Re:fuck that - do something worthwhile by sonamchauhan · 2015-07-07 00:46 · Score: 1

I wouldn't knock this guy... he's been on both sides, obviously. Its a valuable perspective

Naaa by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 00:04 · Score: 0

You don't learn to code because you want to execute on your ideas. I have worked with and tried to each others to code because of Reason X, X being anything other than 'There is something inside me that really wants to' and it has never worked. IMO you either have the aptitude and drive, or you don't. If you do, you already know how to code.

Re:Naaa by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 00:07 · Score: 0

teach, not each. argh.

How much can one learn? by tommeke100 · 2015-07-07 00:16 · Score: 1

When I was in University in the 90s, many Liberal Arts studies actually had some sort of programming classes. I had a friend that studied Economics, and I know she had an Informatics class where she had to write some Delphi program with UI and everything. It was basically a simple "address form desktop application", which was exactly what IDEs like Delphi and Visual Basic excelled at. Needless to say, these students didn't really care for those classes.
I'm sure many years later she completely forgot about all that. So really, unless you want to flood these students curriculum with technology related classes, there is just no way you'll get (most of) them interested in developing/programming their own idea.
If they would be interested, they'd go for engineering as well instead of Economy or Law school.

Yeah by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 00:23 · Score: 0

so the rich guys plan is use daddy's money to buy your way to success.
We need a 99.9% estate tax.

Teach your dog to code by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 00:24 · Score: 0

A good boy writes pythonic expressions, who's a good boy?

Coloring outside the lines? by gti_guy · 2015-07-07 00:26 · Score: 1

Learning to code may limit what the "idea person" thinks is achievable. It teaches to "color inside the lines". An "idea person" should challenge coders, not accept limitations taught in school.

Ideas are cheap by DigiShaman · 2015-07-07 00:44 · Score: 1

And nothing is cheaper than an idea. Nothing!

--
Life is not for the lazy.

Edison Exemplar by ZecretZquirrel · 2015-07-07 01:09 · Score: 2

Thos. Edison was an archetype of the innovative entrepreneur, and he was not a "idea person". He was a relentless prototyper, experimenter and learner.

Learning by doing is essential. Ideas have to be generated, tried and qualified (and mostly rejected) by doing, not just thinking.

That's the truth, and it sux. by AndyKron · 2015-07-07 01:09 · Score: 3, Insightful

Being able to design and develop is liberating because that lets you make stuff like flashing sequins sewn into a shitty sweater you got at Goodwill because you're too fucking poor to buy anything else. That's the truth, and it sux.

How? Easily. by Viol8 · 2015-07-07 01:10 · Score: 1

I worked in IT in finance and can quite happily look at myself in the mirror thanks. It wasn't out of choice but a job came my way and I took it because those of us who don't live still live with our parents have rent/mortgages and other bills to pay and a family to support. And sadly you generally can't do that with self righteous right-on ideals powered by unicorns and moonbeams.

Yes, I'm part of the system, but guess what - society IS the system.

When I meet an idea person by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 01:19 · Score: 0

When I meet an "Idea Person" and they want to collaborate but need someone to do all the work I run the other way. Everyone has ideas. Ellen Pao has ideas, but she doesn't understand her user base and in some cases the functionality of the site she is supposed to lead shape and mold with her ideas. If you are an idea person but have no tech skills you are not worth much to me.

The most idiotic story in the world by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 01:20 · Score: 0

Written by a fucking idiot.

What the 60-year old entrepreneur and others of his generation — the people in control of the education we receive — don't realize is this: for college students dreaming of becoming unicorns in Silicon Valley, being an 'idea person' is not liberating at all

You seem to have this backwards. He's rich, you're not. You need to learn from him, not the other way around - at least if you want to be rich like him. You took his lesson, misunderstood it, and then flushed it. That doesn't make you smart, that makes you stupid, wilful and ignorant. Entrepreneurs are not "idea persons" - the very crux of your argument is worse than wrong - you just made it up and wrote it down as a fact. You don't even understand what entrepreneurs do yet, your best answer is "uh, hmm, doesn't look like they do anything much except have ideas". So because you think they don't have a role, you fill up your time will bullshit like coding when you should be doing whatever it is entrepreneurs actually do with their time. And he's telling you, no, that's not how it works, and you're here TWENTY YEARS LATER claiming you were right all along. You've learned NOTHING. All you're left with is, "well I failed on purpose because I wanted to be liberated, not rich". Shut the fuck up, seriously. You failed, so don't presume to tell others how to succeed, unless you are actually so spiteful that you want other people to fail like you did. Jesus.

Re:The most idiotic story in the world by Kester1964 · 2015-07-07 02:55 · Score: 1

If being rich is your only measure of success than Bernie Madoff is a big success. How ironic you end your rant with the name Jesus since he was, by all accounts, a total failure dying penniless on the cross.
Re:The most idiotic story in the world by kilfarsnar · 2015-07-07 03:56 · Score: 1

If being rich is your only measure of success than Bernie Madoff is a big success. How ironic you end your rant with the name Jesus since he was, by all accounts, a total failure dying penniless on the cross.
This is America; success is measured in dollars. Bernie Madoff was a success, until he turned himself in to the authorities. Modern Americans would step over Jesus and tell him to get a job.

--
"What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
Re:The most idiotic story in the world by tehcyder · 2015-07-08 00:51 · Score: 1

Being rich is the only real measure of an entrepreneur. The mistake is in thinking that being a good entrepreneur is inherently a good thing.

--
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it

Wishful but not practical thinking by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 01:23 · Score: 0

It's tough to make generalizations about idea men and how they should spend their time. Some, like Bill Gates, coded early in their careers, others didn't. Should a 60 year-old spend his few remaining years learning to code at a mediocre level, or is it more cost effective to spend his remaining years finding the right people to evaluate and implement his ideas?

According to Wozniak, Steve Jobs never learned to code. See: http://www.businessinsider.com/steve-jobs-never-wrote-computer-code-for-apple-2013-8
Should he have spent his last 10 years learning Objective C? Does that mean he wasn't a "Maker?" Did he have to get inside the pgramming box to think outside the box?

Waste so many years? by zarmanto · 2015-07-07 01:38 · Score: 1

"Why waste so many years learning how to code?"

Okay... but then again, why waste so many years in college in the first place, for that matter? If you're actually talented at coding, then you can probably learn more on-the-job then you ever will in a classroom.

(And yes... I speak from experience.)

Re:Waste so many years? by tepples · 2015-07-07 15:20 · Score: 1

Okay... but then again, why waste so many years in college in the first place, for that matter?
Because in the current job market, employers demand it as a filter to screen out hundreds of resumes submitted for one position.

If you are a developer... by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 01:57 · Score: 0

You have no doubt heard this: "I have an idea for an app....." with the expectation that you do all the work and they get to go in 50/50. Unless you are already successful, its very hard to have the money to pay someone else to write your software. You need to be able to build it yourself when you are just starting out.

better odds with the lottery by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 02:07 · Score: 0

How about just investing in investing in lottery tickets? You have better odds.

Re:better odds with the lottery by Gestahl · 2015-07-07 08:44 · Score: 1

Yo dog, I heard you like investing...

Like putting Marketing in charge... by Dega704 · 2015-07-07 02:11 · Score: 1

Here's an age old adage for the outdated generation: "If you want something done right, you do it yourself." I don't think I truly understood its meaning until fairly recently. If you really do have a clear vision for something, that automatically makes you the best candidate to bring it about.

All of this talk about the "Idea person" reminds me of when I was working in the electronics department at Sears, and the pompous district manager who had never worked the front line insisted we implement his 'brilliant' idea to crank up the volume on all of the display TVs so that they could be clearly heard from anywhere in the store. Everything that's wrong with that scenario should be obvious, but that was his level of disconnect between his 'idea' and reality.

Unfortunately, far too many people are worshipping at the church of Steve Jobs for the concept of the unskilled idea person to die out any time soon.

Re:Like putting Marketing in charge... by gnasher719 · 2015-07-07 02:43 · Score: 1

Unfortunately, far too many people are worshipping at the church of Steve Jobs for the concept of the unskilled idea person to die out any time soon.
I'll tell you something about "unskilled" Steve Jobs: When Apple had all their plans ready for the Apple 1 computer, Steve Jobs got off his arse and sold 50 of those computers to a hobby computer store for $500 each, and the $25,000 he got was enough to buy the parts for the first 50 computers he needed to deliver, plus 50 more that he could sell. Without that money, Apple would have been dead at inception. That single sale started everything.

Job's ideas were a dime a dozen. His ability to make it stick and actually produce the thing, that's what sets him apart.
Re:Like putting Marketing in charge... by kilfarsnar · 2015-07-07 03:51 · Score: 1

Unfortunately, far too many people are worshipping at the church of Steve Jobs for the concept of the unskilled idea person to die out any time soon.
The PTB have also put this idea into the larger culture as a way to justify their disproportionate wealth.

--
"What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)

When they get rude by Atrox666 · 2015-07-07 02:22 · Score: 2

When people hear that I can program apps I often get hassled by someone who of course has the next multi million dollar idea. I'm not interested but they rarely take no for an answer.

I've said directly to people that if I'm smart enough and disciplined enough to actually build an app chances are I'm smart enough to have 5 ideas better than theirs and if they really were smart then I'd be happy to recommend a book. People think there is some idea shortage out there. I like asking them about their "spec" because they almost never have anything but vague bar room banter and haven't even thought that out particularly well.

Reading makes their lips tired and no one ever takes me up on the book recommendation. Most apps pitched are already out or are outside the physical abilities of the phone.
Maybe it's because I'm a bitter old man but I love showing them the app they just described and watching their little hearts break.

Re:When they get rude by __aaclcg7560 · 2015-07-07 04:01 · Score: 1

When people hear that I can program apps I often get hassled by someone who of course has the next multi million dollar idea.
Whenever someone finds out that I'm a writer, they ask why I haven't written a screenplay and make an easy $50,000 per screenplay. First, it's not that easy to write a screenplay. Second, I don't have connections with Hollywood because I don't live there. Third, I'm not interested in competing with every failed actor or actress who write screenplays when they're not working at the local dinner. No one is happy with that answer.
Re:When they get rude by shess · 2015-07-07 05:29 · Score: 1

When people hear that I can program apps I often get hassled by someone who of course has the next multi million dollar idea. I'm not interested but they rarely take no for an answer.
The variant I love is when they want you to evaluate their idea, but they're so cagey about actually _telling_ you the idea that there's no plausible statement you could make about it. I suspect this is all very highly correlated - if you don't know what you're doing and have never seen how hard it is to actually make working products, you don't know whether other people could run with your idea or not. But if you know how hard it is to accomplish something, you know that telling someone else about your idea doesn't matter, they won't be able to accomplish it either.
Re:When they get rude by dlingman · 2015-07-07 05:32 · Score: 1

Had this happen to me - I have an idea for the next app - I'll tell it to you, you build it, and you can have 1/2 the cash. My response? Consider: Someone approaches Steven King. Tells them they have a brilliant idea for a book - all he has to do is write it, and he can keep 1/2 of money. I'm betting Mr. King has a very full well (or 2, or 3) of the bodies of people like that.
If, on the other hand, someone approaches me, with desing notes, screen sketches etc of what they want built, I can give them an estimate as to how much it will cost them to get me to build it.
Somehow, realizing that they are going to have to pay to get their idea built seems to frighten most of them off.

Yes by American+AC+in+Paris · 2015-07-07 02:36 · Score: 2

This is a good idea; a deeper understanding of the various roles around you can only improve your own work.

Similarly, coders should be able to:

Read (and write!) a project proposal
Successfully explain their work to a room full of non-technical people
Interpret a project plan and identify risk points
Understand an annual report
Grasp basic employment law

Specialized skills are substantially enhanced by a broader understanding of the organization as a whole.

--

Obliteracy: Words with explosions

divisiveness by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 02:56 · Score: 0

I think this is reducing words to symbols in order to marginalize people. To prove I am unbiased I want concede that ideas are overvalued.

Most people have certain levels of many traits including brains, heart, and courage.

Ideas without understanding by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 02:56 · Score: 0

In the non-cyber world: would a car designer without automotive engineering get anywhere? An artist without Architecture get to build a building?
A salesman without market understanding? Can you run a plumbing company without knowing about pipes?
People who know nothing about a subject assume that it is easy. Dilbert's boss syndrome.
You may be able to hire people with better skills, but you have to have some understanding of the domain to lead them.

Re:Ideas without understanding by __aaclcg7560 · 2015-07-07 03:49 · Score: 1

In the non-cyber world: would a car designer without automotive engineering get anywhere?
I had a roommate who studied automotive design on the West Coast because he loved cars. Four years of college and $25,000 in student debt later, his regular job was logistics in a warehouse. I'm surprised no one told him that an automotive designer was overqualified to work in a warehouse.
Re:Ideas without understanding by gzuckier · 2015-07-08 16:55 · Score: 1

In the non-cyber world: would a car designer without automotive engineering get anywhere?
I had a roommate who studied automotive design on the West Coast because he loved cars. Four years of college and $25,000 in student debt later, his regular job was logistics in a warehouse. I'm surprised no one told him that an automotive designer was overqualified to work in a warehouse.
A graduate came back to my school to talk about his job designing cars. He had worked on the original Ford Mustang! We were totally stoked to hear what he would say. Turned out he had designed the door handle. I learned a lesson from that.

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Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.

John Sculley, Steve Ballmer by mileshigh · 2015-07-07 03:42 · Score: 1

What happens when you take away the geek?

Steve Jobs, if not a programmer, was steeped in tech dreams and culture from a young age. John Sculley, a Pepsi marketer, took over Apple in the 80's. He just didn't get it, basically drove Apple to near-bankruptcy.

Bill Gates wasn't a super-programmer, but he was clearly one of us. MS started dying the day that Ballmer took over, and seems to be getting his game back now that a geek is running the show again.

Unicorn makers dream in geek. The "idea guys" don't have the technical vision that's needed to actually lead for the long term.

Re:John Sculley, Steve Ballmer by phantomfive · 2015-07-07 04:01 · Score: 1

Gates was pretty good as a programmer. If you look around the web you can find some of his source code still to judge for yourself.

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"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."

Spoken like a true Capitalist by kilfarsnar · 2015-07-07 03:42 · Score: 1

"Why waste so many years learning how to code? Why not just pay someone else to build your idea?"

Yeah, I mean why learn a skill yourself when you can just hire someone to do the work for you and then hire someone else to market the product to make you millions, while paying the guys you hired as little as possible? It seems the most important skill is being able to pay people while keeping most of the money for yourself.

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"What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)

Re:Spoken like a true Capitalist by __aaclcg7560 · 2015-07-07 03:54 · Score: 1

It seems the most important skill is being able to pay people while keeping most of the money for yourself.
If you ever own a business, you will understand how important that skill is.
Re:Spoken like a true Capitalist by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 06:46 · Score: 0

I think you should provision this to say "...pay people enough to keep them working on your projects while paying yourself appropriately, and reinvesting the rest of the money back into the business".
Re:Spoken like a true Capitalist by gzuckier · 2015-07-08 17:01 · Score: 1

"Why waste so many years learning how to code? Why not just pay someone else to build your idea?"
Yeah, I mean why learn a skill yourself when you can just hire someone to do the work for you and then hire someone else to market the product to make you millions, while paying the guys you hired as little as possible? It seems the most important skill is being able to pay people while keeping most of the money for yourself.
And then, when your workers become so expert at their jobs they realize that you're standing in the way of their doing a better job, they leave, start new companies, and become your competitors. See the beginnings of the auto industry, the beginnings of the chip industry, the beginnings of the computer industry, and a lot of Chinese companies that used to make stuff under contract to American companies.

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Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.

When you are a carpenter.. by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 03:48 · Score: 0

When you are a carpenter, everything looks like a nail that you can use a hammer on.
When you are a coder, everything looks like you can use code on it.

Think outside the box man. Coders think the world revolves around them and code and the coding mentality is superior than non coding. I've seen this for YEARS in this business.

fundraising by Goldsmith · 2015-07-07 03:53 · Score: 1

Just being an "idea" person is useless. Ideas are a dime a dozen. What most people are missing in this exchange is the part about "getting other people to build it for you." That's very non-trivial, and requires it's own skill set. Anyone who has actually tried to start a company knows that getting investment and creating a team is difficult. Most people in the "investor class" don't know or don't remember what it's like to not hang out with other wealthy people looking for investments.

You really need three roles to get something going: vision, execution, and fundraising. It's VERY rare that one person can do all three efficiently.

Actually it's 1 in 25 by waspleg · 2015-07-07 04:14 · Score: 1

I recently read this book this documentary is based on. The doctor who wrote it harps on this point to the degree it sounds preachy and fear mongery in the text.

The most interesting parts of the book were the stories which were ostensibly from cases with the names changed.

Years? by Kohath · 2015-07-07 04:56 · Score: 1

Why is it taking people "years" to "learn to code"? That's the part that seems wasteful. You don't need to be a "computer scientist" to write useful code.

Wrong by plopez · 2015-07-07 05:06 · Score: 1

Who cares about implementation? What is really needed is the ability to sell an idea to get investors to finance your company while getting the details people to work for stock options until you find a sucker to buy your company for a fortune. Then you move on to the next Big Idea.

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putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+

I can see both sides... by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 05:09 · Score: 0

So while I strongly agree with the sentiment that 'shoeshops should be run by shoemakers' and that it is often the execution not the idea, I also feel that we cannot all be specialists in all areas. It seems like specifically in IT everyone thinks everyone should be a programmer. No-one would suggest that an achitect has to be a brick layer, or a plubmer or a roofer or capenter.
The reverse also applies: there are a lot of ideas poeple who should know more about programming, but also not every programmer is an idea person.
Does this then mean ideas should only be allowed tho those very select few that can do both, you could argue exactly the other way round as well - kind of.
So I feel this is about understanding concepts and being able to communicate across disciplines more than anything else...

I thought it was obvious by GuB-42 · 2015-07-07 05:31 · Score: 1

If your project involves code, it's better if you are familiar with code. In the same way that if your project involves wood, it's better if you are familiar with woodworking.
Better architects also know the technical aspect of construction, including manual labor.

Re:I thought it was obvious by gzuckier · 2015-07-08 16:59 · Score: 1

If your project involves code, it's better if you are familiar with code. In the same way that if your project involves wood, it's better if you are familiar with woodworking. Better architects also know the technical aspect of construction, including manual labor.
I don't understand why you keep poopooing my idea of a steel Zeppelin. I didn't take materials science, you know, or aerodynamics; I'm an Idea Man.

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Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.

"Idea person" == too much money, few brains by whitroth · 2015-07-07 05:35 · Score: 1

The Middle Ages nobility: Read? Why would I learn that - I have clerks for that. The only proper thing for someone noble is to hunt and fight.

Mid-20th century: managers and execs don't touch a keyboard, that's what the all-woman secretarial pool is for.

Now: learning to actually do work and make things? That's beneath us, we just buy people to do that, they don't do anything useful (i.e., make money for me), it all comes from my Vision!

mark

Re:"Idea person" == too much money, few brains by gzuckier · 2015-07-08 16:57 · Score: 1

The Middle Ages nobility: Read? Why would I learn that - I have clerks for that. The only proper thing for someone noble is to hunt and fight.
Mid-20th century: managers and execs don't touch a keyboard, that's what the all-woman secretarial pool is for.
Now: learning to actually do work and make things? That's beneath us, we just buy people to do that, they don't do anything useful (i.e., make money for me), it all comes from my Vision!
mark
I remember when the CEO of my then employer first was "now on the internet!" for purposes of email. Each day when he went to lunch, his secretary would log in to his account and print out all the email and put it on his desk. He would scribble answers all over it, then leave it on her desk to reply back to via email.

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Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.

Speaking as an Idea Person... by hardwarejunkie9 · 2015-07-07 07:08 · Score: 1

Bear with me and hear me out, here: there's something to be said for someone whose capability is in coming up with eventful, useful ideas. When you're down in the minutiae, it can be hard to understand the context of your design and the importance of the decisions you've made up that that point. A good "idea person" shouldn't be some stand-alone guru, they're someone who takes inspiration off of others around them and who knows how to use the expertise of others around them to polish better ideas. This process means that most of the ideas you have are going to be crap. Simple fact, if you've thought of it, chances are there's a reason why someone else hasn't done it yet. There's benefit in realizing why this might be and what you may be able to do differently. Regardless, ideas are a dime a dozen and that means that you have to constantly be trying new ones and seeing if there's even one worth keeping. The problem you run into as an "ideas person", when you're really working at it, is that your ideas require more skills than you can, individually, develop. Yes, we need to learn to program to understand what we're working with, but there's no way we can dedicate the time to be an excellent programmer and still cover all the other fields that need to be covered. If that were the case, we'd have to specialize in three or four different fields just to be viable. The tradeoff is that we have to become at least functional in multiple areas with enough knowledge to know that in any given room, we're always the apprentices. We only exist to try and communicate where the other methods and wider perspectives may exist to improve the overall project.

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I like losing arguments, it just means that I can take your point and make it my own.

A byte by any other name by sdinfoserv · 2015-07-07 08:03 · Score: 1

Not everyone shares the same interests or skill sets. The blanket statement that everyone should learn to code is ludicrous. All these examples in this chain site people from the tech industry; within tech - coding is a useful skill that can, with the right idea, skill and luck make one fabulously wealthy . The notion shared by many people to sit at a desk for hours uninterrupted is inconceivable drudgery. I have friends in the medial industry worth 10s of millions who quite honestly do not possess the mental tendencies necessary to become a superstar programmer. There are other disciplines for which the ability to code is not only useless, but most likely counter productive. Give me 1 reason Russel Wilson should learn to code...Or why he would want to. An acquaintance of mine owns a chain of nursing homes.... coding- not even on the radar, and he lives in a palatial residence in the same neighborhood as Bill Gates. You can teach a horse to stomp his feet counting numbers to a point.... this isn't an example of calculus, and the horse really isn't any better for it outside of a circus. No, i'm not equating those who don't program to horses (I have to say that, there's some very literal tools on list).

Ugh... by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 08:11 · Score: 0

My parents convinced me that going to art school and then getting a job as an "idea guy" was the right decision. Now I hate my life.

Other useful skills. by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 08:21 · Score: 0

Even the "idea person" should learn how to injection mould plastic parts, how to machine steel, how to design circuitry, how to TIG weld, how to design packaging, and how to do effective graphic design.

Bullcrap. Idea people should have good ideas, and should be able to manage or partner with other people to provide the skills needed to bring their idea to fruition. The broader their skill set the more likely they are to have good, practical, possible ideas, but none of those skills are necessary so long as they have the good ideas.

Don't weaken the codebase ... by Zero__Kelvin · 2015-07-07 08:54 · Score: 1

I'll l take it a step further and say that if you aren't an idea person, then you shouldn't learn to code. You weaken he codebase.

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Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun

Just like.. by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 11:34 · Score: 0

This is liken to the old demand that everyone must learn a foreign language - just to completely forget it afterwards. This is an idea for a new game - Stupid Pursuits.

Music plagiarism by tepples · 2015-07-07 15:02 · Score: 1

It reminds me of when people talk about "originality" in art, and dismiss everything as "unoriginal" because it was inspired by something or other. Set a standard so high it can't be reached.

If by "people" you mean "lawyers", I'll agree. Especially with respect to things like Gaye v. Thicke ("Blurred Lines" copied "Got to Give It Up"; Marvin Gaye's son won in court) and Petty v. Smith ("Stay With Me" copied "I Won't Back Down"; settled out of court with Tom Petty and his co-writer sharing one-fourth of the song's royalties).

Back up the tables on SSD by tepples · 2015-07-07 15:07 · Score: 1

What changes are needed to prevent sudden power outages.

A UPS. There's already one in your laptop. And for power outages exceeding an hour, SELECT can still be served from a cache in main memory, and INSERT, UPDATE, and DELETE can be made durable by keeping the table files on an SSD.

Looks like a job for refactoring by tepples · 2015-07-07 15:13 · Score: 1

Now what we as Engineers can do, is improve on the design

In other words, the idea guy who can code makes the prototype, and the engineers refactor it into something durable.

get rid of those calls to Microsoft Access, and switch it to a more sturdy relational database.

Is Access really the problem? One of my previous employers ran Stone Edge Enterprise, which is an order fulfillment system with an Access+VBA front-end to a Microsoft SQL Server database. Fortunately, our database was small enough that it could fit into the 4 GB limit of SQL Server Express.

Re:Looks like a job for refactoring by david_thornley · 2015-07-08 04:41 · Score: 1

So the idea guy makes something that sorta works when under no load, people use only a small subset of the intended functionality while making no mistakes, and which flakes out unpredictably, and then the engineers are supposed to take that and quickly make it production-ready because the sales folks are already told they can sell it. I've been in that situation (and not on the side of the idea guy).

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"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes

why? by SuperDre · 2015-07-07 20:24 · Score: 1

So should we all learn how to fix a car?
should we all learn how to do brainsurgery?
should we all learn how to disassemble a nuclear device?
This is such nonsense, let the coding be done by people who want and are good at it just like we do with every other job.
A lot of people are just not cut out to do coding, just like a lot of people cannot build a simple doghouse or are not able to draw..

So What's Your Business Plan? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-07 21:28 · Score: 0

Next time, ask them to provide you with a full formal business plan, one that's suitable to present to a bank for financing. Also say that you won't work for anything other than an hourly cash rate. These two conditions are normally enough to back down the "posers" who have no idea about the cost of starting and managing any business.

Re:So What's Your Business Plan? by Atrox666 · 2015-07-08 06:08 · Score: 1

Yeah I'm not really interested in being an app coder at any price someone with half a brain would pay.
Anyone willing to pay me what I'd ask to dust off my average level programming skills would be dumb and working with stupid people is not on my road to job satisfaction.
Re:So What's Your Business Plan? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-10 03:23 · Score: 0

You don't actually need to take the job, asking to see the business plan is not like signing an employment contract. Even if by chance that they do have full business plan and that they're willing to negotiate your chosen hourly cash rate, it should be easy enough to find an excuse somewhere to reject the offer; I'd start with where they got the figures for costings and development time and projected income. This level of preparation shows that they are totally serious and have done the absolute minimum groundwork to get the venture started. Business plans should always be up for improvement so I would make certain suggestions and allowances to help tighten the accuracy of the resources required to get things done (with the assumption that the idea is already plausible enough to do).
Even if the plan does happen to add up properly, you still don't necessarily need to take the job but you could always refer some other programmer who could be interested; I'm sure you know a few people who would be up for an idea that you've personally verified.

Unicorns? by tehcyder · 2015-07-07 22:38 · Score: 1

What does "college students dreaming of becoming unicorns in Silicon Valley" mean?

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To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it

The idea guy lied to sales by tepples · 2015-07-08 05:19 · Score: 1

So the idea guy makes something that sorta works when under no load, people use only a small subset of the intended functionality while making no mistakes, and which flakes out unpredictably, and then the engineers are supposed to take that and quickly make it production-ready

Fine so far.

because the sales folks are already told they can sell it

This is the problem.

My idea for world peace by gzuckier · 2015-07-08 16:53 · Score: 1

Get famous and rich and respected, then go on TV and tell people to stop fighting.

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Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.

the inmates run the asylum in tech by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-09 09:34 · Score: 0

Everyone here should read "The Inmates Are Running the Asylum: Why High-Tech Products Drive Us Crazy and How to Restore the Sanity"
by Alan Cooper

I'm sorry, but you're wrong! by avatar139 · 2015-07-13 09:58 · Score: 1

One of the biggest problems in almost every industry is the lack of collaboration in favor of the notion that if you want to contribute something you have to build it yourself. If you're wondering why innovation is stagnating around this is a big reason why. Bear in mind for a lot of groundbreaking companies there is a partnership between the idea people (Jobs, Edison) and the technical people (Woz, Allen, etc). I think that's very telling of the game-theory influenced idiocy that governs where everything is considered a Zero-Sum game and the only way you can is for everyone else to lose. Different people have different skillsets, so expecting that ideas should somehow take a backseat in some kind of Darwinian power struggle is only the adding fuel to PHBs of the world. Oddly, people used to be able to work in teams without the politics and yuppie bullshit that's so prevalent nowadays as everyone climbs over the backs of everyone else (everyone but the top most managers included) for every scrap they can get all to often at the expense of good ideas that could have made them successful. I can't draw wroth crap, so it would be stupid to expect to me to write AND illustrate a comic book series. You think Stan Lee would have been nearly as successful without Jack Kirby and other artists? No. Being able to draw is not a requirement. Does it help? Sure. But in today's lackluster franchise/derivative driven entertainment industry that creating additional barriers to entry is useful to either businesses or the marketplace in general. Creativity is a requirement that's sadly lacking nowadays. The rest is mostly optional.

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I'm honest enough to admit I lie to myself.

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Even the "Idea Person" Should Learn How To Code

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