Windows 10 Start Menu Wins IDSA Design Award

jones_supa writes: Despite some criticism, it turns out that the design of the Windows 10 Start Menu isn't bad at all, as a designer organization has recently decided to give Microsoft its own Digital Design 2015 award for the feature. In a description on their website, IDSA (Industry Designers Society of America) explains that the design of the new menu makes it easy to access files across platforms, as it comes brings together PCs, tablets, and phones. More, the Start Screen and the Start Menu look similar, so it's easy to adapt to the interface that suits best to your device. There are plenty of Start Menu customization options and if you have a look in the Settings screen, you will find plenty of choices to tweak the default look and feel. Live tiles can be removed completely as well.

Comments

Hmmm

[Hognoxious]

Seems about as credible as that thing Homer Simpson won for being fat and falling in a hole.

Re:Hmmm

[binarylarry]

IDSA: See you only hate it because of how good it is. Like a Porsche.

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

being fat and falling in a hole.

He was clearly not fat enough. That's one way to survive a poor local administration incapable of fixing pot holes and allowing the building over former mining caverns.

Re:Hmmm

[rudy_wayne]

Seems about as credible as that thing Homer Simpson won for being fat and falling in a hole.

yes, we now have confirmation that the ISDA is a bumch of clueless morons.

The Windows 10 Start Menu is an abomination that has almost none of the functionality of a real Start Menu (ie, Windows 7 and earlier) and all of the bad things of the Windows 8 Start Screen now crammed into a smaller space.

Re:Hmmm

[Ol Olsoc]

Seems about as credible as that thing Homer Simpson won for being fat and falling in a hole.

yes, we now have confirmation that the ISDA is a bumch of clueless morons.

The Windows 10 Start Menu is an abomination that has almost none of the functionality of a real Start Menu (ie, Windows 7 and earlier) and all of the bad things of the Windows 8 Start Screen now crammed into a smaller space.

Bullshit. I haven't had to go to the internet once to find out how to do something on W10, unlike the abomination whack-a- mole administration method of Windows 8. I installed and started using and started supporting all in the same day. Can't ask for much more than that.

And lest ye call me a shill, look up my other posts.

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Well of course, not *everything* about it is bad.
It's just that the shiny exterior hides some really foul smelling stuff under the covers.

For example, some FAQ told me that "WUDO is also enabled in Windows 10 Enterprise and Education, but only for the local network."
That's a lie, I found it enabled for local netork plus internet on my Enterprise machine today. That was right after it had installed an update during a reboot, and some websites say that update had something to do with WUDO. I don't know how it was configured (and if it was even there) before, just that the exact contents of that update seem to be a bit of a mystery and some sites say it installed WUDO. Reading that is why I checked it.

Thank {deity} I'm not on a limited bandwidth regime that throttles me down to "dripple" or blows up the price per byte when I reach a certain limit, but I still turned it off as soon as I discovered it.

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit. I haven't had to go to the internet once to find out how to do something on W10, unlike the abomination whack-a- mole administration method of Windows 8.

That's one way to look at it.
The other way, the way I look at it: yes, it is much better than 8 and 8.1. It's *almost* back at the usability level of 7.

Re:Hmmm

[AmiMoJo]

The Windows 10 start menu is actually okay, once you let go of wanting a carefully organized hierarchical menu structure. I realized that I was wasting time keeping the old Windows 7/XP start menu organized, so I stopped and used search and pinned a few favourite apps.

The old start menu is actually quite a bad UI when you have a lot of applications. The menu gets huge and you have to scan through it or remember where things are with muscle memory. You can organize apps into subfolders, but that just wastes your time and when you update an app it will inevitably re-create its start menu entries at the root again.

On Windows 10 there is an alphabetical list, but it's easier to just use search and pin your favourites as tiles. The old start menu has limited room for favourites and they are a simple vertical list. Windows 10 lets you arrange them in groups on a 2D grid, a bit like how people arrange icons on their desktop. You can now uninstall directly from any app icon too, which saves time looking for the uninstaller or opening the separate installed apps window.

I'm not bothering with Classic Start Menu any more, Windows 10 is fine. You can just remove the live tiles and use it as a launcher, much like a phone with organized home screens, or more commonly by simply hitting the Windows key and typing a couple of characters.

Re:Hmmm

[Feral Nerd]

Seems about as credible as that thing Homer Simpson won for being fat and falling in a hole.

yes, we now have confirmation that the ISDA is a bumch of clueless morons.

The Windows 10 Start Menu is an abomination that has almost none of the functionality of a real Start Menu (ie, Windows 7 and earlier) and all of the bad things of the Windows 8 Start Screen now crammed into a smaller space.

Bullshit. I haven't had to go to the internet once to find out how to do something on W10, unlike the abomination whack-a- mole administration method of Windows 8. I installed and started using and started supporting all in the same day. Can't ask for much more than that.

And lest ye call me a shill, look up my other posts.

So what you are saying is that Windows has finally become borderline usable after a mere 23 years of varying degrees of FUBAR?

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Seems about as credible as that thing Homer Simpson won for being fat and falling in a hole.

yes, we now have confirmation that the ISDA is a bumch of clueless morons.

The Windows 10 Start Menu is an abomination that has almost none of the functionality of a real Start Menu (ie, Windows 7 and earlier) and all of the bad things of the Windows 8 Start Screen now crammed into a smaller space.

Bullshit. I haven't had to go to the internet once to find out how to do something on W10, unlike the abomination whack-a- mole administration method of Windows 8.

I installed and started using and started supporting all in the same day. Can't ask for much more than that.

And lest ye call me a shill, look up my other posts.

I don't disagree although I have had to go to the internet to find out how to do stuff. I bought a new laptop that has Windows10 (upgraded to Win10) and I just dislike the whole tablet/touch vibe. Once I'm in the desktop I forget that my laptop has touch capabilities and start using Windows like I always have. No harm.

I don't know what the hate is about and I dislike Microsoft immensely but I stopped using OSX when Apple decided my Mac was too old to run the latest version and I can't seem to find a Linux distro that I like anymore (KDE seems nice, but annoyances with NetworkManager and things like that drive me crazy). So I use Windows. Thus is the state of the desktop.

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

No, what he is saying, is after 15 years of coasting, waiting for Linux to be anywhere near reasonable for the consumer market to use, Microsoft just got tired of waiting and released W10 to put Linux out of it's misery.
It probably had something to do with systemd.

Re:Hmmm

[ArmoredDragon]

I'd like it if you could just have icons or widgets though. I.e. a calendar widget would be nice, along with regular icons that show ACTUAL TEXT, unlike tiles configured to their smallest setting. The tiles are plain fugly, and you're stuck with a choice of "no text" or "too fucking big."

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

And yet Android, a Linux OS, is still mega popular. More popular and more used on mobile than Windows ever was on the desktop. This is a post-PC world. Nobody gives a shit about your quaint little desktop computer.

Windows 10 is a last ditch effort by Microsoft to try to stay relevant and claw their way above the waterline. That's why they have changed from the standard sales model to a spyware/ad-based model where they "give away" their marketing platform as if it were a real operating system. Windows 10 is Microsoft jumping the shark as they pathetically try to attract the attention that they no longer have. That's what you get when you have a stagnant company run by a marketing guy.

Re:Hmmm

[Ol Olsoc]

Bullshit. I haven't had to go to the internet once to find out how to do something on W10, unlike the abomination whack-a- mole administration method of Windows 8.

That's one way to look at it. The other way, the way I look at it: yes, it is much better than 8 and 8.1. It's *almost* back at the usability level of 7.

But at least workable. Hopefully they'll get rid of a few "features" like wifi sense - but i don't want to puke when I use it. Not a very high bar I suppose.

Re:Hmmm

[Ol Olsoc]

So what you are saying is that Windows has finally become borderline usable after a mere 23 years of varying degrees of FUBAR?

It's something.

I guess I take different approach. I don't see anything with W10 to make me switch away from my Unix-y OS computers, but give 'em credit, they are moving toward something better. Early, I think that now that Ballmer has left, they are at least listening to people instead of telling people that they have to like whatever shit they sell.

I'll do support for it at any rate.

Re:Hmmm

[Ol Olsoc]

No, what he is saying, is after 15 years of coasting, waiting for Linux to be anywhere near reasonable for the consumer market to use, Microsoft just got tired of waiting and released W10 to put Linux out of it's misery.

It probably had something to do with systemd.

Um - no. I have OS X, Linux, W7 and W10 now.

Have no plans to abandon any of them.

I like the tools that work best - I don't demand only one tool.

Re:Hmmm

[Ol Olsoc]

And yet Android, a Linux OS, is still mega popular. More popular and more used on mobile than Windows ever was on the desktop. This is a post-PC world. Nobody gives a shit about your quaint little desktop computer.

Oh, give it a fucking break.

Do you eat shit anonymous coward? All those flies and dung beetles cannot be wrong. give it a try - it's really popular, so you should do it.

Desktops will always be around for people who actually do work. Not everyone will be a consume stuff only person.

And don't even try the retarded argument that you can serious work on a tablet or phone. You can ride across the country on a tricycle too. Not that anyone would want to do that.

Re:Hmmm

[Ol Olsoc]

You are a Microsoft tool.

Thanks for playing, AC.

Re:Hmmm

[PRMan]

I've pinned my top 10 apps to the taskbar since Windows XP. And with searching in Windows 7, I've never needed anything else.

Re: Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, because all that content you like to access from your android device is made on phones and tablets.

Nope, the workstation, desktop, and notebook are here to stay.

Re:Hmmm

[Ol Olsoc]

You condone and contribute to Microsoft's employment of spyware. There is no more accurate term than tool to describe you.

Clueless little kids like you only care about being able to play your video games and read Twitbook.

Ye know nought. But keep digging that hole of fail.

Re:Hmmm

[Ol Olsoc]

and W10 now...I like the tools that work best - I don't demand only one tool.

The only tool is you. You're Microsoft's little bitch now.

My W10 computer is sitting there, turned off while I use my Mac - Later in the day, I'll move over to another Unix-y machine.

Keep digging, Coward.

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds about right.

The worst part though is they were soooo close to getting something good going with the start screen but instead of fixing it's very real problems they kept the crap and crammed it into a smaller area while bolting on their old asinine "alphabetic by name of the company that wrote the software" start menu that people only like because it's familiar.

On the whole Apple's launchpad is a lot more useable, but still leave plenty of room for improvement, like a way to access documents intuitively not juts applications.

Re:Hmmm

[Wraithlyn]

The problem is the goddamn hierarchy in the first place. If they just offered a simple alphabetical list of applications (NOT folders you have to navigate through first) it would work great. Which is exactly how MAC OSX's application folder works.

I cut my teeth on Commodore and DOS, and do plenty of command-line work these days, but I prefer two quick clicks to launch an application, over having to type part of its name, thanks. It's 2000-fucking-fifteen, if you have to type in order to launch something, your graphical OS has failed one of its primary purposes. </rant>

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

A product I am working on got "Product of the Year" despite the fact that it is not released yet and is still in very early stages of being being built and the design is changing on the fly, the only thing the public ever saw was a quick and dirty demo and a lot of marketing. Basically it's the same as Obama getting the Nobel Peace Prize.

In other words, ignore these sorts of awards, they're meaningless.

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

The start screen would have been much better if it popped up as a translucent overlay over the desktop, including open windows and not just the wallpaper. They would also need to It should also default to showing program groups instead of pinned items or every single program. The icons/tiles shouldn't be spaced so far apart from each other either. Still Windows 8 is miles better than Windows 10.

Taking a look back, the primary cons of each Windows OS at the times of their respective release were:

Windows 1.x - split screen only, no multitasking, no applications
Windows 2.x - no multitasking, no applications
Windows 3.x - no multitasking, few applications
Windows 95 - unstable, insecure
Windows 98 - unstable, insecure
Windows Me - unstable, insecure, poor user control
Windows XP - slow
Windows Vista - high memory requirement, premature release
Windows 7 - high memory requirement
Windows 8 - start screen, hot corners
Windows 10 - spyware, advertisements, poor user control, haphazard start menu

Re:Hmmm

[jbmartin6]

Yes. I think a lot of the start menu complainers here don't even know about the search function, either in Windows or in Unity.

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Abomination? It's more functional. Or is it too hard for you to right click? Some people are so resistant to change that they can only stomp their feet and pout instead of evaluating the true functionality. Shame, really.
 

Re:Hmmm

[Nyder]

Seems about as credible as that thing Homer Simpson won for being fat and falling in a hole.

yes, we now have confirmation that the ISDA is a bumch of clueless morons.

The Windows 10 Start Menu is an abomination that has almost none of the functionality of a real Start Menu (ie, Windows 7 and earlier) and all of the bad things of the Windows 8 Start Screen now crammed into a smaller space.

Bullshit. I haven't had to go to the internet once to find out how to do something on W10, unlike the abomination whack-a- mole administration method of Windows 8.

I installed and started using and started supporting all in the same day. Can't ask for much more than that.

And lest ye call me a shill, look up my other posts.

You did notice the guy said Windows 7 and earlier? And then you in your great intelligence decided to bust on Windows 8? Just curious, did you fail math in school?

Re:Hmmm

[pslytely psycho]

Now this AC has been fun. Considering the amount of FUD he is spreading, enough to fertilize Texas, I would put his mental age at, oh, about 13.

No balls, no brains. He only hates on that which is popular because it makes him so meta. I bet he doesn't watch TV either, and only rides a bike, even in 10ft of snow....

Get out of your basement child, there is a whole wide world out there.....and girls! Real live ones that don't require flash to see! It's not 1996 anymore!

Re:Hmmm

[cheater512]

They are printing that slogan on banners as we speak.

Windows 10: Now Workable!

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Only a child would be oblivious to privacy concerns. When you're older and have responsibilities, you might understand.

Re: Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows 10: you won't puke

Re:Hmmm

[dwywit]

That's my approach. In fact, yesterday I wrote my first invoice for fixing a problem on a recently-upgraded Surface - Win10 (apparently) broke Outlook's ability to send email - receive was OK, and test account settings was OK, but it needed sfc /scannow to fix it.

If people want to use it, I'll charge them to fix it.

At this point, though, I'm only going to run it in virtualbox as a test bed. I find it......unattractive. The minimalist, pared-back design elements supplied as defaults are difficult to read - the (sort of) consistency used in XP/Vista/7 is missing - and it's taking a lot to get used to. It shouldn't be more difficult to use than its predecessors.

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

And lest ye call me a shill, look up my other posts.

Of course, job #1 in the shilling business is to trash the ancien regime to make room for the new one.

Re:Hmmm

[reboot246]

"Windows 10 - spyware, advertisements, poor user control, haphazard start menu"

If Microsoft would fix those specific things, I might consider downloading it. I will not tolerate a computer doing something behind my back or doing something I don't want it to do. And I HATE ads, even in a silly little game.

Re:Hmmm

[shutdown -p now]

I may be missing something, but my Win10 start menu still shows folders as, well, folders. Which you can expand if you want to, exactly the way it has been since Vista. It doesn't lump everything that's inside those folders into the top level list. So aside from the tiles (which you can just remove, and then resize the menu to reclaim the wasted space), I don't see what exactly is actually different from Win7, aside from the theming.

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

If Microsoft would fix those things, I would pay for a copy of Windows 10.

They should just have pay and crippleware versions of Windows 10. Then users can choose if they want an OS or a marketing platform.

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Any system that isn't self-hosting is a joke and of limited utility beyond use as a viewing/consumption device. Real work involves creation, and PC hardware is the king of that. My phone is useful as a handheld appliance for a shocking number of uses, but it wouldn't be much use without PC-based dev environments and powerful server environments to provide the external data that most mobile apps need.

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

An alphabetical list of several hundred applications, completely unorganized, aside from the lexicographical order...blech. You talk about two clicks; I'm thinking two clicks, scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll....shit, the application name has the developer in it, not just the program name, so I get to go back up the list....and read through everything because I forgot who made the damned thing. Great.
 
Sometimes, typing the name is faster (especially if you only remember part from the middle, or something). Any graphical OS that values purity of interface over ease of use has miscategorized "graphical" as a primary purpose. The primary purpose: Make it easy to launch the software that I actually want to run. Any OS that makes that any harder than it has to be or tries to force the users into a single work pattern has failed one of its primary purposes.

Re:Hmmm

[geminidomino]

I was planning to "upgrade" and just use Classic Start Menu again, then I saw how much information it wanted to puke out.

Location Tracking? Ads? Keylogging? WiFiSense?

In windows 8, Microsoft tried and failed to use a smartphone UI on the dekstop.

In windows 10, apparently they're going for the smartphone security instead...

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Except that you don't have to type, you have tiles for quickly launching the majority of apps. For professionals in the industry that actually have to use a great many apps typing remains far and away the best method. OS X doesn't accomplish this any better, it is the same approach except you can't jump to your specific app, you have to scroll through the dock.

Re:Hmmm

[Ol Olsoc]

Now this AC has been fun. Considering the amount of FUD he is spreading, enough to fertilize Texas, I would put his mental age at, oh, about 13.

Yeah, he's pissed at Microsoft, OSX and Linux.

Something tells me he's a commodore 64 or Timex Sinclair user. Regardless, it was fun, but now it's boring, so I just don't brows down in the manure at -1 for a few weeks, and will miss his valuable insights.

Re:Hmmm

[Ol Olsoc]

yes, we now have confirmation that the ISDA is a bumch of clueless morons.

The Windows 10 Start Menu is an abomination that has almost none of the functionality of a real Start Menu (ie, Windows 7 and earlier) and all of the bad things of the Windows 8 Start Screen now crammed into a smaller space.

You did notice the guy said Windows 7 and earlier? And then you in your great intelligence decided to bust on Windows 8? Just curious, did you fail math in school?

Um, Did not fail math - I did manage to pass reading comprehension. He wrote, to wit:

The Windows 10 Start Menu is an abomination that has almost none of the functionality of a real Start Menu (ie, Windows 7 and earlier) and all of the bad things of the Windows 8 Start Screen now crammed into a smaller space.

That's repeated in case you need to read it twice

So exactly what the hell Nyder? Somone appoint you the cop of Slashdot?

So let me get this straight. An anonymous Coward specifically says something about Windows 8, and for some gadamned reason I'm not allowed to reference Windows 8 in my reply?

And you took the time to take unbrage and reply incorrectly to it as if I'm logically prevented mentioning something he mentions? I think you might be better off to post AC so you don't embarrass yourself.

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Now you're stooping to fabricating lies. I've got absolutely nothing against Linux or BSD or even older versions of Windows.

Nice try though.

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem with WUDO being on is that "local network" could be thousands other devices on a mobile carrier. Why they didn't make this use Network Locations and its Windows Firewall-like choices of Private, Domain, Public is beyond me.

Re:Hmmm

[antdude]

Ditto. Same here. I use mostly Windows (XP Pro SP3 & 7), but I use Linux and Mac OS X as well.

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

The Windows 10 start menu is actually okay, once you let go of wanting a carefully organized hierarchical menu structure.

DEATH FIRST!!!

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

~20th century, PC is for fun and toying...

Re:Hmmm

[Ol Olsoc]

~20th century, PC is for fun and toying...

If no one produces content, what will the consumers consume?

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

So what you're insinuating is that there are an equal number of software developers and users. Got it.

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

The Windows 10 start menu is actually okay, once you let go of wanting a carefully organized hierarchical menu structure

That will never happen. When I look for disk utilities or network utilities, I want programs neatly organised in to those groups.

In addition, Windows 10 only allows 500 items in the start menu. Having everything just piled together into one giant mess isn't going to work well within that limitation.

Re:Hmmm

[Billly Gates]

Oh, give it a fucking break. ....
Mainframes will always be around for people who actually do work. Not everyone will be a pc stuff only person.

And don't even try the retarded argument that you can do serious work on a PC or Mac. You can ride across the country on a tricycle too., Not that anyone would want to do that.

Re:Hmmm

[Ol Olsoc]

Oh, give it a fucking break. .... Mainframes will always be around for people who actually do work. Not everyone will be a pc stuff only person.

And don't even try the retarded argument that you can do serious work on a PC or Mac. You can ride across the country on a tricycle too., Not that anyone would want to do that.

I used to work on mainframes. Way back when men were men, we used punchcards, and the sheep were very nervous.

You aren't capable of doing actual work on a desktop?

Re:Hmmm

[Hognoxious]

Imagine developing for a tablet ... on a tablet. *shudder*

Re:Hmmm

[Ol Olsoc]

Imagine developing for a tablet ... on a tablet. *shudder*

And how! "The No one needs a desktop anymore." crowd are almost as clueless as the "No need for a real still or video camera crowd. The main diffference is in pictures, it's physics. In programming or creating, it's having enough real estate. Your comment about developing for a tablet is spot on point. Even if you had a real keyboard attched to it - it's too damn small.

Two things are going to be painfully shown to the younger crowd:

One is that your eyes change as you age. That is not a get off my lawn statement kiddies. That's what happens to most of us.

Second, screen real estate is like nothing else. If you can do something on a small screen, you can do it more efficiently on a bigger one, or multiple big ones. I have 2- 27 inch screens now, and expect my next desktop to be at least 2-30 inch screens.

Because there is more to computing than checking facebook and playing candy crush. And someone has to write that crap.

UI Designers are the bane of my existence

[szmccauley]

Me: Gnome shell designers, put the fucking Open/Save buttons back at the bottom of the dialog where god intended them to go. God: yeah, what up wit dat? Fuck me. Oh yeah, windoze suck.

Live tiles

[goarilla]

Live tiles can be removed completely as well.

Shouldn't live tiles be removed/disabled by default since they pose a security risk ?

Re: Live tiles

[Anonymous Coward]

I wouldn't care if they'd just added an "all classic apps" menu option alongside the "all apps" menu option.... Fucking r-tards!

Re:Live tiles

[Anonymous Coward]

^^ THIS. I hate the live tiles.
But with most things in corporate gardens you are required to opt-out as opt-in is always implied.
In the same way that Oracle always ticks the little install crapware in your browser checkbox for you when you update Java.

There should be a law against this as aggressive corporate coercian or corporate cyberbullying or something in that nature.. ..punishable by corporate dissovlement.
If you can't play nicely you should not be allowed to play at all.

Re:Live tiles

[Anonymous Coward]

..oh and also punishable with corporate asset siezing for public redistribution and all board members forgo the right to run any further public/private commercial enterprises and have their assets siezed as well. fuck'em.

I'm in one of those 'stick it to the man' moods today.

Re:Live tiles

[Anonymous Coward]

Java lol....

Re:Live tiles

[moronoxyd]

In the same way that Oracle always ticks the little install crapware in your browser checkbox for you when you update Java.

I only update Java by downloading the offline installer. No crapware there.

Re:Live tiles

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes but by having crapware in the online version they are forcing you to act to disagree with their offer and find another way, ie use the offline installer, you should only have to act to agree to it. It is a type of coercive persuasion as you are forced to act involuntarily to negate it. The live tiles are the same.

Re:Live tiles

[gstoddart]

I find them annoying as hell, and utterly pointless.

But given that Microsoft has tried this live content crap several times before, and had to pull them precisely because they were security exploits ... I was surprised to see them be such a prominent feature of Windows 8.

Not only do I think the widgetification of the desktop is annoying as hell, and nothing I want, I fail to see something which they've deprecated (in XP, Vista, and I believe Windows 7) as a security risk should be deemed safer now. It's a widget with access to the internet, what could possibly go wrong?

I just assume building things which gives 3rd parties the ability to live update crap on my desktop is going to be insecure.

That, and I don't want a screen full of blinking and flashing crap in front of me. Hiding that god awful screen was one of the first things I did on my Windows 8.1 box.

Re:Live tiles

[CastrTroy]

What security risk is that? Is there anything specific that live tiles can do that can't be accomplish while the app is running? Are they any less secure than running native apps? What about native apps that leave an old school notification icon running or native apps that install services?

Re:Live tiles

[gstoddart]

Why wouldn't it be a security risk?

It's a widget which grabs content from the internet. It was insecure when it was "Live Desktop" in XP, it was insecure when it was "Gadgets" in Vista and Windows 7.

Microsoft claims the apps are more secure, but honestly, who really knows?

My assumption is, like all new stuff, it's probably got holes nobody has identified or admitted to knowing about.

They keep trying to have these things, and then they subsequently discover they've got giant security holes in them. I just assume these ones do too.

Re:Live tiles

[xenotransplant]

Yes, what we need in this country is MORE laws on the books for their lawyers to loophole.

Re:Live tiles

[0123456]

What security risk is that? Is there anything specific that live tiles can do that can't be accomplish while the app is running?

Display a slideshow of your pr0n stash to anyone walking past the machine?

They're just more stupid hipster shit.

Re:Live tiles

[Anonymous Coward]

It has access to your computer based on instructions sent to it over the internet by an unverified source who is, even in the best scenario, NOT THE OWNER OF THE FUCKING MACHINE. And, worse, it will insist on doing its thing without asking or letting you know before it starts fucking about.

How the hell is that NOT insecure?

Re:Live tiles

[CastrTroy]

Why wouldn't everything be a security risk?

You could basically say the same thing about any new feature. "We don't know if it's secure yet, so we just shouldn't use it" is a ridiculous way go about life. If we all took that view, we wouldn't be able to add new features for anything.

Re:Live tiles

[gstoddart]

When it comes to new features by Microsoft, that's pretty much what I do. Because time and time again they've proven me right.

I have no interest in those live tiles because they annoy the hell out of me and aren't anything I want. In parallel to that is my firm belief that Microsoft focuses on shiny baubles, and consistently does a shit job of security.

On more than one occasion when people have predicted a new feature would become an exploit, Microsoft is happy to prove that correct.

Not wanting the eye candy and not trusting the eye candy is my choice.

You can feel free to run any shit you choose to.

Re:Live tiles

[Anonymous Coward]

Well the number of laws is irrevelent to the number of loopholes. Loopholes in laws are generally caused by the law being too broad or interpretative in scope or having cleverly written backdoors/conditions. Loopholes in laws are created by people, if they are not wanted they are generally not there. It is as simple as that.

Re:Live tiles

[PRMan]

And deleting all the live tiles and shrinking the start menu was the first thing I did in Windows 10.

Re:Live tiles

[Ravaldy]

I think the reason MS says this is because the tiles have the same amount of access as the applications. If your application has admin access it can do admin when tile information is requested by the OS. So the live tiles themselves don't do anything. The call to get the rendering is where all the code is executed and it's no different than running the app itself.

Re:Live tiles

[goarilla]

They are web clients parsing remote html/js, ...
I also like to keep the marketing out of my start menu as much as possible.

Re:Live tiles

[SeaFox]

Yes but by having crapware in the online version they are forcing you to act to disagree with their offer and find another way, ie use the offline installer, you should only have to act to agree to it

You can turn those offers off.

Re:Live tiles

[shutdown -p now]

You seem to be under the assumption that there's actually some code running behind those tiles. There's not. Unlike Android widgets or Vista/Win7 gadgets, tiles are passive in a sense that they don't pull data, data is pushed onto them. It can be done by a background task within an app (in which case the tile is basically just another rendering surface), or it can be a push notification. Either way, the communication is one-way - the app, directly or indirectly, tells Windows what should be displayed on the tile, but it cannot e.g. capture input from it.

Re:Live tiles

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes you can turn them off but you have to involuntarily act to do so. You should only have to turn them on if you want them and not jump hoops to negate it.

Re:Live tiles

[Anonymous Coward]

In the same way that Oracle always ticks the little install crapware in your browser checkbox for you when you update Java.

I only update Java by downloading the offline installer. No crapware there.

Some one mod him up for humor!

At first I thought moronoxyd was serious, than I considered the slashdot ID, enough said.

If you need the official installer for only one thing and the third party vendor that controls that thing updates their version...great the installer (offline or online) works great...if only it were that simple.

For those that are lucky enough not to need Java (your blessed). At our office we have to use Java for both Kronos (time clocks) and Oracle. If we are fortunate enough to get one version of Java working with both (very rare) it works for awhile and than one day will magically stop working. When you reinstall the same version of Java again, (after un-installing the old version of course), it will sometimes work, sometimes not. What is really strange is when you perform the same uninstall and install (same version of Java) 6 - 10 times and it finally works....no rhyme or reason for such crapola.

Chronos (Kronos) could use HTML 5 instead of Java and it would be a non issue. But of course they are either too technologically incompetent to fix OR they are greedy (want you to pay 6 figures to update your corporate license of Chronos). Probably the later.

With Oracle, you know you are screwed as the same company owns both Oracle and Java and if it was just Oracle, you could find an option that would always work...as long as you do not need Java for anything else. (One of the reasons MariaDB is better than MySQL is because the team that invented both, fixed problems with MariaDB that they were NOT allowed to fix at Sun/Oracle)

Its this inability to predict whether either an install or an update will work that ranks Java right up there with the hated Adobe products (ie. Flash).

You would think it's the only way McAfee can sell their products the way its always checked...even funnier.

You can't pin items correctly.

[Anonymous Coward]

You can't pin items to the main list directly above the start menu, like you could in 95, 98, Me, 2k, NT, XP and 7.

Like so. Notice how the user has grouped similar items together.

This image seems to be of the technical preview of 10, but you can't have it like this any more.

This is the final Start Menu in 10.

You can't get rid of Places, the contents of the Most Used are completely beyond your control: you can't manually add items or reorder them, so if you had a palette of tools you had arranged in a nice order in any other Windows, you can't have that any more.

You can pin icons to the right pane by dragging it out and selecting Pin to Start Menu on them, but they have seriously ugly Modern/Metro boxes behind them. The All Programs (now called "All apps" because Metro apps and programs obviously don't require any kind of distinction RIGHT.) has a similar cascading to the Windows 7 Start menu but the icons all have the block coloured square background behind them, which makes some icons difficult to identify, the spacing between items is greatly increased which makes managing large Start Menus difficult.

In 95 you could completely customise the font used to display the start menu items and their size, and thus have a very dense menu if you wished.
In XP and 7 you could at least add and reorder them as you wished.

Re:You can't pin items correctly.

[Anonymous Coward]

Choose your character:

Windows 95

Windows 98

Windows ME

Windows NT

Windows 2k

Windows XP

And just for kicks, here's one for Windows Fundamentals for Legacy PCs Win FLP.

Re:You can't pin items correctly.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ahh no, that's incorrect. The RTM Start menu does allow you to remove things like Places and Most Used. Pretty much everything on the left hand side other than All Apps and Power can be removed.

http://i.imgur.com/z8uCWSN.png

Granted, you can't pin anything to that area as well anymore, but you weren't able to pin things to that collection of menu items in Windows 7 either (which was on the right-hand side in that OS). The smallest tile uses less space than a traditional menu item anyway, so you can cram more items onto it. Actually, unlimited items as the start menu is totally resizable both vertically and horizontally.

It's actually light years ahead of Windows 8, and I've actually started using tiles instead of a 3rd party menu like Classic Start Menu.

Re:You can't pin items correctly.

[Anonymous Coward]

In that case I apologise.

If you can find a way to manually pin and reorder items in the area directly above the Start button and the All Apps link, I would very much appreciate it.

Re:You can't pin items correctly.

[cyberchondriac]

In that case I apologise.

You sir, just broke the Internet. An apology on Slashdot? Next people will start feeding homeless kittens.

Re:You can't pin items correctly.

[Anonymous Coward]

You can't unfortunately. In reality they moved the un-pinnable section of Windows 7 from the right side of the menu to the left in Windows 10. However, it's now given you a pinable tile surface capable of resizing the entire screen, if you like.

Yes it's tiles... this is meant to be a merger of desktop and touchscreen interface after all. It's actually about the same size as the taskbar quick launch buttons that Windows XP and earlier used.

Re:You can't pin items correctly.

[Anonymous Coward]

So why don't you fucking marry the new start menu you fucking M$ SHILL! Kill yourself.

Re:You can't pin items correctly.

[pslytely psycho]

You have added so much to this conversation. You are soooo meta. I suspect your IQ to be in the upper 40s, maybe. Now go away so the adults can have a discussion on the pros and cons of the new GUI.

Go back to griefing noob WOW players and doing the 'doubleclick while you hold your dick" mambo as you obviously haven't the intelligence to hold an actual conversation.

Re:You can't pin items correctly.

[Anonymous Coward]

I suspect your IQ to be in the upper 40s

That sounds about right. Someone with around an IQ of 100, like you, would need to reach way down there. You're a perfect customer for Microsoft, completely average, mindless, naive drone. You're the dumb as fuck everyman who supports the TSA, NSA and war in Iraq (because WMD). People like you need to feel the "comfort" of big brother watching and taking care of everything. So long as you have your little apartment, shitty car, Big Macs and Dancing with the Stars, you're all set. Privacy be damned.

Re:You can't pin items correctly.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ooh, I think I need stitches from cutting myself on your edge.

Re:You can't pin items correctly.

[Anonymous Coward]

*tips fedora*

I use Linux but I like Win 10

[kooky45]

The machines I use most are running Linux Mint or Android, but I've updated two Windows 7 desktops to Windows 10 and I like it. The Start menu is especially nice.

Re:I use Linux but I like Win 10

[Anonymous Coward]

For some reason, Slashdot users always describe even the worst Windows features as "nice"

Re:I use Linux but I like Win 10

[Anonymous Coward]

I use Linux at home, Windows at work and I don't see the point of start menus. At. All.

Re:I use Linux but I like Win 10

[gregsmac]

Its not really about you now is it?

Re:I use Linux but I like Win 10

[Harlequin80]

Where as as soon as I finished installing windows 10 I typed "Why is windows 10 so ugly" into google. Perhaps I really am getting old but this is how I use my desktop and start menu. I put short cuts to the programs I use all the time on my desktop. I put shortcuts in the task bar to programs I use continuously. And I use the start menu to browse everything else. I find the windows 10 start menu unintuitive. But perhaps that is because I haven't used windows 8 at all so I missed a generation of training.

The other thing I was a little confused about is the app store thing. If I install the VLC app from the app store wtf am I actually getting? I'm assuming I'm getting some random winRT thing and not "proper" VLC. But there is nothing there that explains it. God damn I'm getting old.

Re:I use Linux but I like Win 10

[Anonymous Coward]

If it's not about him, then what is it about? Is he somehow not a user of computers? Does Microsoft not want to sell to him specifically? Are Microsoft now going to refuse some people if they don't agree with what they decided, despite those people having money?

You see, EVERY SINGLE PERSON can be *individually* discarded with the worthless phrase "It's not really about you, now is it?". But that rather neglects the fact that who it IS about is EVERY SINGLE ONE of those "it is not really about".

And a seller who doesn't want to sell to customers is out of business.

Re:I use Linux but I like Win 10

[David_Hart]

If you think installing apps from the store is confusing, try installing the exact same app from the web and the store.

I installed the Kindle app from the store and the Windows Kindle program from the web. They are two completely different apps. The one in the store is build for mobile (i.e. tablets and phones, touch menus, etc.) and the other is built as a desktop app (mouse/keyboard menus, full screen, etc.).

I would recommend that if you have a Windows tablet or touchscreen laptop, and you use touch a lot, that you get the apps from the store. They will work much better with touch.

If you don't want the widgets, prefer mouse/keyboard, and want full functionality, install the desktop application and ignore the store.

The store is really meant for mobile apps...

Re:I use Linux but I like Win 10

[timholman]

Where as as soon as I finished installing windows 10 I typed "Why is windows 10 so ugly" into google.

You should have tried that search on Bing instead. Then the top hit would have been "Why is Mac OS so ugly?" or "Why is Android so ugly"?

Finally

[Murdoch5]

It's nice that Microsoft is finally considering good GUI design. Linux has has extremely functional GUI's for years and now it finally seems that for the first time, Microsoft might be following suit, after all if Windows 10 sported Gnome 3, you'd have the single most powerful desktop in the world.

Re:Finally

[Anonymous Coward]

Please mod as Funny. This has to be a joke.

Re:Finally

[DigiShaman]

Yeah, blowjobs cost money. Question is, how much did Microsoft pay for this one?

I do believe I smell a shillin'

Re:Finally

[Flavianoep]

Some of these awards are just for the institution granting them making money. I guess there is a logo associated with their award, and a company that wants to sport it in their products have to pay a fee. There were so much critique about the look and feel of Windows 8 that Microsoft must be eager to associate their brand with such an award. If I was an institution that granted awards, I would have seen the opportunity.

Re: Finally

[IMightB]

My first thought was: I wonder how much this award cost MS?

Fixing 8

[puddingebola]

If they fix the UI, then they fix 90% of the problems they had selling Windows 8. I don't know what IT departments opinions are of the spyware features in the OS. I'm sure they can find a way to configure it to their liking. Does a uniform UI across all devices translate into sales of tablets and mobile devices however? I am skeptical. The iOS and Android trains left the station a long time ago.

Re:Fixing 8

[Jerry Atrick]

More important, iOS and Android established that users are completely happy using different UIs on different types of devices, Windows or Chrome on the laptop, iOS or Android on their phone, some hideous barely usable travesty on their smartTV... and so on.

Methinks the value of the Win10 on everything is massively less than Microsoft needs.

Re:Fixing 8

[Sponge Bath]

I don't know what IT departments opinions are of the spyware features in the OS. I'm sure they can find a way to configure it to their liking.

If they have the "enterprise" version they can disable the snooping features that people currently know about. Everyone else gets the MS knows best and knows all versions that make these decisions for you. But the Win 10 start menu is less horrible than the Win 8 journey down the rabbit hole.

Typo

[Tyrannicsupremacy]

"comes brings..."

Good for them.

[Anonymous Coward]

I personally awarded it an all expenses paid one-way trip to /dev/null for being the most infuriating piece of spyware I've ever encountered. I'm also awarding it bonus points for breaking my boot loader, and being ugly as fuck.

Re:Good for them.

[gbjbaanb]

amen. And if anyone has followed the tutorials about disabling Cortana to get rid of the "all your keypresses are sent to Bing for.. processing", you'll find that it still sends all your data to Bing anyway.

You have to block it in the firewall to get the behaviour what normal people would expect.

Re:Good for them.

[Anonymous Coward]

And how long until the forced updates for non Enterprise users modifies behavior to go around firewall / hosts restrictions?

Re:Good for them.

[Black LED]

You can uninstall Cortana (among a number of other obnoxious "features") completely via PowerShell, but Windows 10 still phones home with far more information than it lets on.

I would have happily paid full price for a real upgrade that has all snooping and Metro stripped out and that lets me do manual updates. I guess I'll be sticking to Windows 8.1 until support stops in 2023.

Re:Good for them.

[Sponge Bath]

MS does seem to be migrating to an ad, marketing and data gathering platform instead of general purpose OS. All that pent up upgrade money waiting for a Win 7 replacement will have to continue waiting.

Re:Good for them.

[Anonymous Coward]

amen. And if anyone has followed the tutorials about disabling Cortana to get rid of the "all your keypresses are sent to Bing for.. processing", you'll find that it still sends all your data to Bing anyway.

You have to block it in the firewall to get the behaviour what normal people would expect.

Moronic and Insane. Doing the same thing and expecting a different result. (Like the Republican and Democratic parties doing the same thing that has gotten us to this economic hell an telling us it will fix it this time...yea right.)

Like Microsoft has never lied to us.

Reminded me of the setting in Windows 2000, that would prevent updates from happening without the user's expressed consent, but updated anyway....pathetic.

If the only way to prevent is to block in a firewall rule, its a definite FAIL! Enough excuses.

"Designers" are getting on my nerves

[sjbe]

I'm getting REALLY tired of "designers" making pointless, needless and often-as-not counterproductive changes to user interfaces. I'm particularly sick of the game of hide the menu which is particularly in vogue lately. Good design is about making things useful first and beautiful second and it seems we have a lot of self anointed UX "experts" who have that backwards. We seem to have too many art school graduates claiming to be "designers" even though they clearly have no particular skill at user interface design.

Re:"Designers" are getting on my nerves

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly. Users shouldn't have to *think* how to do something. A bit ago, I tried using Windows8 at a local retail store, and I couldn't figure out how to launch Notepad! (to try out typing on the keyboard). Yes, you can slide the Win8 thing left and right, and you can touch a "tile", but how do you launch an application you know is there??? (and yes, I've used Windows since forever, and never had that "how" bewilderment moment---I've had it with a Mac [unmounting a drive?], so that's why I don't use it).

Re:"Designers" are getting on my nerves

[iONiUM]

The issue is people want different things. "Older" users who grew up on Macintosh, UNIX, Win 3.1 etc are used to menus being at the top, a central place for all applications, and the command line.

Much younger users grew up with "apps" and websites looking like apps, which is the hamburger menu (that's the real name) in the top-left, expanders, jQuery carousal, etc. What's natural to them isn't natural to you, and vice-versa.

In the end it's about sales, and "new and pretty" sells, and the changes aren't all that big of a leap for the younger crowd. It is what it is, adapter or die.

Re:"Designers" are getting on my nerves

[jedidiah]

I really don't see younger users "clamouring" for anything. If anything they are far more adaptable to the point where they don't even acknowledge the existence of distinct platforms. You don't really have to pander to them at all.

It's certainly retarded to do so for a desktop platform that's being marginalized by those same tablets whose primary strength is business desktops and legacy applications.

it's like taking the one branch remaining on an dying tree and sawing it off while you're sitting on it.

Re:"Designers" are getting on my nerves

[ArchieBunker]

Try changing an IP address on Windows 8. Every option kept taking me to the connections screen (full sized window) with the only option being to disable the ethernet adapter. Finally did find it but that is a major design fail.

Re:"Designers" are getting on my nerves

[Anonymous Coward]

The little "all applications" down arrow thing on the start screen is pretty obvious if you've ever used it on a touch-screen device. It's slightly less obvious if you've only ever used it with a mouse, as it's hidden until you mouse-over/near it. (On a touch screen device, it doesn't hide that arrow at all.)

Also, Win+R-notepad will still do the trick every time.

Re:"Designers" are getting on my nerves

[Anonymous Coward]

I've changed IP addresses on Windows 8. First of all, it has the same limitations on wi-fi as all other versions of Windows (and several other OS'es, AFAIK), namely, that you can't manually change the DHCP-assigned address given to a wi-fi adapter.

From there, it's a simple matter of going to the desktop (because WTF are you doing in the tablet UI?), right-clicking (or press-and-holding) on the network status taskbar icon, and picking "Open Network and Sharing Center" from the context menu. From there, it works exactly like Windows 7.

To attempt anything that isn't a braindead-simple turn-on/off-feature-x switch through the pants-on-head-retarded Settings "app" is a major user fail. Especially when everyone has been bitching about the UI (loudly!) for the better part of 3 years. You, and everyone else, should know better by now.

Re:"Designers" are getting on my nerves

[Methuselah2]

Be kind to designers, after all, they are using Macs, and therefore don't have to put up with the useability problems of different Windows versions.

Re:"Designers" are getting on my nerves

[QuietLagoon]

I'm getting REALLY tired of "designers" making pointless, needless and often-as-not counterproductive changes to user interfaces.

I really, really dislike the current "designers" trend of placing very light grey letters on a white background. I'm sure that style wins design awards for looking hip and cool, but it is less than readable. Much less than readable.

.
I wonder if the design awards ever take into account functionality, or is it all prettiness and form for them?

Re:"Designers" are getting on my nerves

[PRMan]

The irony is that if you read the Metro design document, Microsoft tells you to make sure that everything is discoverable. Show a value and make a click that allows you to set the range where that value sends an alert. Stuff like that. Make things discoverable at first glance.

They said this while simultaneously releasing Windows 8, where NOTHING is discoverable.

Re:"Designers" are getting on my nerves

[fluffernutter]

We have Apple's massive profits to blame for that. If people want to buy bling then resources go into bling. I am still trying, but I cannot get used to OSX. I really want to figure out how a Mac expert does things but I just can't seem to find a fluid way to do anything. That is the way the whole industry has headed. I wish I could say that capitalism looks out for tech's best interests but it isn't so.

Re:"Designers" are getting on my nerves

[Anonymous Coward]

BEAUTIFULLY WRITTEN !!!!

form follows function... always !

Alternatively use a third-pary start menu

[Anonymous Coward]

If you don't like the start menu and prefer the old Windows 7 style start menu, then there are alternatives.

http://www.classicshell.net/
There are also other alternatives, like Start8 and whatever.

Re:Alternatively use a third-pary start menu

[Runaway1956]

Yes, I know that, and I do use an alternative.

https://www.enlightenment.org/...

Re:Alternatively use a third-pary start menu

[Runaway1956]

https://www.enlightenment.org/...

Re:Alternatively use a third-pary start menu

[Anonymous Coward]

Why not just stick with Windows 7 and forgo the hassle and spyware of downgrading to Windows 10? Seems a lot simpler to me.

Start 10

[present_arms]

Didn't I read a couple of days ago that start 10 was downloaded by gazillions because win 10's start menu is crap, not tried it, not going to. just saying.

Re: Start 10

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you for your pointless contribution to this article.

Re:Start 10

[JaredOfEuropa]

It's not crap, it's ok once you remove the live tiles. Not sure why I'd want them in the Start menu of all places, it'd make much more sense to have them on the desktop. On Windows 8 the first thing I did was install ClassicShell to get a Windows 7 style start menu, but on 10 I haven't even bothered looking for a replacement menu. It's close enough to the old start menu as to make no real difference.

Meaningless award

[sjbe]

It's nice that Microsoft is finally considering good GUI design.

Just because some design association threw a meaningless award at Microsoft's way-too-late attempt to fix their stupid decisions in Windows 8 doesn't mean they are "finally considering good GUI design". Let's see how good it is when the General Public gets their hands on it. Their recent track record has been less than brilliant to say the least so I'm pretty confident they haven't had some sort of design epiphany. Basically it looks to me that they got their ass handed to them over Windows 8 and they're scrambling to fix something that they never should have broken in the first place.

Re:Meaningless award

[Anonymous Coward]

I find windows 10 design to be worse than 8, at least with 8 the design clashes were separated by the desktop and start screen. Now they've combined them and it just feels half finished, switching between two designs at random.

Re:Meaningless award

[iampiti]

If you read the forums and the news pieces with comments, you'll see opinions are really divided: Some people (I guess old farts like me who have used the tradiional desktop for many years) find the new touch-oriented interfaces and apps in a desktop computer out of place and a horrible interface for keboard + mouse use. Many other people (I guess the young kids who've grown with smartphones and tables) seem very happy with that.
IMHO they tried to make a unified interface for all form factors and they've failed for all of them: The new interface is one-size-fits-no-one but is slanted towards touch use and so we desktop users get a subpar interface. What I wish they've done was a totally different UI for touch and desktop but I guess that would be too nice to be true

Retirement

[Anonymous Coward]

I announce my retirement from the IT profession, so I can devote my life to caring for the mentally handycapped, in witch role I look forward to seeing the judges verry soon

Gedit: NEVER FORGET!

[Anonymous Coward]

We should never, ever forget what the GNOME 3 developers did to Gedit's user interface. For those who are unfamiliar with it, Gedit is a rather simple text editor, much like Windows' Notepad, for the GNOME desktop environment.

This is how Gedit used to look, several years ago. As we can see, it has a very usable UI. It has a traditional menu bar with clearly-labelled menus, it has a traditional toolbar with clearly-labelled buttons, it has the main tabbed text editing area, and a small status bar at the bottom. All in all, this UI was extremely intuitive, and very easy and convenient to use.

Then the GNOME 3 tragedy happened. This is how newer versions of Gedit look. Before you claim otherwise, yes, that is a text editor! It's like they specifically designed it to embody every poor design choice possible. The intuitive menus and toolbar are gone, replaced with a mishmash of buttons and dropdowns with obscure icons and almost no useful labels. The tabs are now unnecessarily large. The scrollbar button is unnecessarily small. Everything about this new UI is absolutely horrific.

That screenshot of modern Gedit is typical of how goddamn awful GNOME 3 is. It's truly unbelievable that a once-excellent software user interface could become so fucked up.

Re:Gedit: NEVER FORGET!

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, everything about Gedit's new UI is horrific. I'd still use it over Windows Notepad, though.

Re:Gedit: NEVER FORGET!

[Anonymous Coward]

geany is the first thing I install on a Gnome3 system...

Re:Gedit: NEVER FORGET!

[Anonymous Coward]

Emacs > all. Problem solved.

Re:Gedit: NEVER FORGET!

[Anonymous Coward]

Comparing those before and after screenshots, I see that Gedit used to look like a poor copy of a Windows program, and now it looks like a poor copy of a Mac program.

Now, I'm sure it functions fine in both instances (usability aside, I'm just talking about whether it is capable of doing its job). But in both cases it's a "poor copy" of someone else's program, at least to my eyes. Why? Because Gnome (everything in Gnome, not just this one program) has strange spacing and alignment issues. I can't quite put my finger on it, but there's just something "off" about the placement of every single piece of text and every single image in the Gnome UI. Even the proportions of the title bars, buttons, and other rectangular elements seems "wrong". Does it affect how it works? Not really. Does it affect how I perceive the quality of the UI? You bet your ass it does. And this is why it's perpetually not the year of Linux on the desktop.

Re:Gedit: NEVER FORGET!

[Murdoch5]

gedit ..... what's wrong with VI / VIM?

Third party menu apps should NEVER be needed

[sjbe]

If you don't like the start menu and prefer the old Windows 7 style start menu, then there are alternatives.

Yes there are and that is the clearest indication that the interface sucks. There should be no need for a third party application to make the default interface useable. I had to buy a few machines with Windows 8 on them for work and I absolutely loathe the interface. Might be fine on a tablet (haven't tried) but on a PC with a keyboard and mouse it is just horrid. The UX people at Microsoft that let that monstrosity out the door should never be able to find work in "design" again. Dumbest design decision since Microsoft Bob.

Re:Third party menu apps should NEVER be needed

[CastrTroy]

Are you saying that because there are alternatives, that the interface sucks? Maybe it's just that people have different preferences. Linux distros often (or used to) come with 4 or 5 different window managers, and all were extremely different in how they went about managing the UI. When this happens in Linux, it's awesome, look at all the choice we have. When this happens in Windows, it's because Microsoft is stupid, and the interface they created sucks.

Re:Third party menu apps should NEVER be needed

[Darinbob]

The third party interface may not be to make the default interface "usable" but becuase that's what the user wants to use instead. Ie, if a user installs KDE to override Gnome, and some other user installs Gnome to override KDE, then that doesn't mean both of those interfaces are unusable. Instead means that the two users want different things. It's just basic customization. People overrode the Windows 7 and XP start menus too. For Windows 8, there are third party utilities to bring a start menu with an option that looks a LOT like Windows 10.

Re:Third party menu apps should NEVER be needed

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux pre-selects for technically-oriented users that value choice, and who may be looking for something different. Windows pre-selects for users that don't generally mind the status quo, as long as it can be made to work. When MS shakes things up enough to annoy their users, you know that they've missed the mark pretty badly.
 
Before Windows 8, I remember some replacements for the filesystem browser (and web browser, of course), but not for core elements of the Windows UI.
 
Then again, I might compare it to Gnome 3; Mate didn't exist until enough people decided that Gnome was making stupid decisions, and the interface they created sucks. Devuan didn't exist until enough people decided that Red Hat was making stupid decisions, and that Debian was stupid for following them. Linux distros and projects aren't immune from being called stupid, and if the Microsoft-provided start menu were only one out of many supported menu options, it would be a better comparison.

Re:Third party menu apps should NEVER be needed

[CastrTroy]

When MS shakes things up enough to annoy their users, you know that they've missed the mark pretty badly.

I really don't agree on that one. I find that most non technically oriented users have almost no tolerance for any change whatsoever. They've managed to memorize how to operate their computer, and if a single thing goes out of place, they flip their lid.

In other news

[Anonymous Coward]

it was reported the a Mr J Ive was rushed into Hospital because he started choking on his breakfast cereal whe he read about this so called design award

This is a joke Ok!

M$ wins bid for lame advertising

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me guess, M$ is a generous sponsor of theirs?

I like windows 8

[Anonymous Coward]

Am I the only one who likes windows 8? IE on Win 8 is the best browser for touch.

Re:I like windows 8

[Anonymous Coward]

You are.

Re:I like windows 8

[armanox]

You might be the only one running touch.

In the land of the blind

[Anonymous Coward]

In the land of the blind, the one eyed person is king

Im sure this Industry Designers Society of America never used anything beside windows 8.x before, and then upgrading to windows 10 they can only say "win 10 start menu is the best"

Wait for the next 10-K filing

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

Just hold your horses. Just check the 10-K filings of the past and the coming quarters to see if IDSA is a wholly owned subsidiary of Microsoft run from the garage of the home of some Redmond executive.

Designers?

[Anonymous Coward]

I get the feeling that designers is corperate speak for MBA's that draw silly things...

Live Tiles are the feature that no one knew they needed because no one needed them. They are distracting, and useless. like widgets before them they should have been retired to the bad idea grave yard not doubled down on and stuck in the start menu.

The Start menu itself is a poor interface. For users it is just too darn complex. A decent Start menu would probably have all of a user's apps like Win 2000 and nothing else or perhaps their top apps. But Microsoft has a hotlist of apps, folder shortcuts a text field for running command, shutdown buttons that install updates rather than shutting down the PC and a menu of apps if you wait for it... that doesn't have all the apps... From a developer's perspective having to use an installer so you can stick a shortcut in the start menu is ridiculous. Microsoft should have copied Apple and gone with a single "Applications" folder that has applications in it rather than a jumble of vendor folders with jumbles of files in them. Then they could have a start menu that shows a view of the Applications folder, been done and people would have for the most part been happier.

Extensive customization should be code for bad design, bad defaults. Users don't want to spend thirty minutes after installing Windows 10 configuring the start menu to behave in a simple rational manner. So most won't, they will muddle along and hate their PC.

Shit wins awards

[Stormwatch]

This reminds me of how the DualShock won some supposedly important award, even though it's among the worst gamepads ever, and its design issues are glaring for anyone with half a brain.

Re:Shit wins awards

[Anonymous Coward]

But DualShock 1 is the best gamepad ever made.

Re:Shit wins awards

[Misagon]

Both remind me of the examples of bad design in Donald Norman's classic textbook on usability design: The Design of Everyday Things.

Each example got the note "probably won an award".

Re:Shit wins awards

[KatchooNJ]

You piqued my curiosity. What is bad about the DualShock? I thought it was pretty nice. What is flawed?

Had no idea it won an award, though. They make awards for controllers? heh What is it called? THE THUMBY AWARD? :-P

Re:Shit wins awards

[firewrought]

Indeed.. came here to post this:

"It probably won a prize" is a disparaging remark in this book. Why? Because prizes tend to be given for some aspects of design, to the neglect of all others—usually including usability.

-- Don Norman, Design of Everyday Things

Re:Shit wins awards

[del_diablo]

What makes the Dualshock 2 a bad controller, is 3 issues:
1. The shell is designed for a stickless version, and the grip is as well. This means you can never get a good grip on it, because the handles are non existing, and there is nothing to wrap your hand around
2. The PS1 dualshock controller had extended handles, because adding analogs did take up valueable grip space. The extended handles was lost in all successive versions
3. And there is minor wear/tech problems on it. Notable faults includes the deadzone setup(you breach the resistance on the sticks long before you even reach the deadzone, making sniper segments in most games painful), analog buttons with no indication thats a thing(and only a few games, like Metal Gear Solid 3, uses them), the dpad is prone to wrong input after some wear(i.e Forward because diagonal up forward)

That said, there exists worse controllers out there, but its not a good controller setup.

Re:Shit wins awards

[KatchooNJ]

Ah... the Dualshock 2 was the one from the PS2... I actually skipped that system (I got the Dreamcast instead), so I guess I missed the pain. heh ;-)

Re:Shit wins awards

[Qzukk]

I got the Dreamcast instead,so I guess I missed the pain

... says the guy who used a dinner plate for a controller. At least it wasn't Sega's "3D" controller?

Re:Shit wins awards

[Stormwatch]

It can be read here.

Re:Shit wins awards

[Stormwatch]

There's more. It is arranged so the d-pad has the "sweet spot", not the left analog stick. This made sense when most games were 2D and used mainly the d-pad, but now it's the other way around. Also, the analogs' placement makes it so using them strains the thumbs.

Also, those buttons with symbols instead of letters... that's just idiotic.

Shell replacements

[Anonymous Coward]

Why aren't shell replacements more popular? With all the constant griping about the Windows interface, why aren't more people/companies working on complete shell replacements? Seems like the market is pretty ripe for it. (I'm aware that there are some products - Litestep, Aston, BBLean, etc. But none of these are being actively marketed, and the learning curve is kinda steep on most of them)

Design award for something that horrible?

[MacTO]

Place me in a mental institution if you like, but I actually preferred the start screen. At least the start screen acknowledged that the new way of presenting programs as live tiles is hugely space inefficient and needs to take up the entire screen. Indeed, enlarging the start menu was the first thing I did. Then I made the mistake of using all apps. Once again, this is a feature that can use full screen due to the enlarged icons. The problem is that Windows 10 only allows you to enlarge it in one dimension. After a bit more fussing around, I simply gave up.

The new start menu may be great for some people. For me, it felt like a patchwork of features that were poorly thought out. Even though the start screen was much hated, at least it was relatively well thought out. The Windows 7 start menu was well thought out, and had the benefit of well over a decade of refinements. Taking the ideas from two well thought out ideas does not necessarily make a third well thought out idea. On the contrary, it has a huge potential to make a mess. At least Microsoft lived up to that potential.

Re:Design award for something that horrible?

[ArchieBunker]

I had no idea you could scroll the shitty start screen on Windows 8. Not one single hint lets you know, not an arrow or scroll bar or anything. I installed Office on a new Win 8 box and couldn't locate any of the icons. Started googling and found there is actually a knowledge base article letting people know the menu scrolls. Again a design fail.

Re:Design award for something that horrible?

[wbo]

Windows 10 defaults to the start menu style but there is a checkbox that will make the start menu full screen much like it was in Windows 8/8.1.

Indeed, it was one of the first settings I changed when I started using Windows 10 because it just makes much more sense to have the start menu cover the entire screen and make use of the extra space since you can't interact with anything else that may be open on the desktop while the start menu is open anyway.

Re:Design award for something that horrible?

[Anonymous Coward]

The start screen was a stupid design decision, and the live-tiled start menu is barely a fix for it.

When coming up with a tablet friendly UI, Microsoft "UX" people needed to stop making things pretty for a moment and think about how people interact with their computers. As techies, we laugh about it, but what's the first thing the "unwashed masses" do when they get a new PC? They install all of their programs, then they plop a gridwork of icons onto their desktop. Why? Because finding things in menus is "hard". Why should they have to click eleventy times through a menu when they can just click once (or twice) to launch something directly from their desktop?

The start screen was both an admission of this simple "UX" fact (start up to a grid of icons for the things the user wants to use often, launch stuff, never see the "real" desktop) as well as a very poor implementation. In fact, it's such a poor implementation of the concept that we can safely call it piss poor.

Windows supports multiple desktop sessions. Windows supports multiple shells. Windows 8's tablet interface should have been implemented as a shell named something like "texplore.exe" (tablet explorer) and should have presented the UI that became the start screen as an instance of texplore.exe running in a separate desktop session. Then, if anything needed to run on a "regular" (explorer.exe) desktop session, one could be started and the desktop app could be launched there. Desktop systems would then have a very straightforward way to decide what their default interface was. HKLM\Software\Microsoft\WindowsNT\CurrentVersion\Winlogon:Shell would contain the default (startup) shell's filename. Tablets get "texplore.exe", desktops get "explorer.exe".

Windows 10 just backed out the idiotic UI for the start screen and turned it into a desktop-friendly menu. People won't bother with it much. They'll just set up a grid of icons on the desktop like they always did.

Re:Design award for something that horrible?

[nine-times]

Even though the start screen was much hated, at least it was relatively well thought out.

I disagree pretty strongly. I mean, you shared your opinion, which is fair, and I'm just giving mine back in return, no disrespect intended.

But first, I find the whole Metro/Modern design to have been a bit misguided. It looked very nice, in my opinion, and it was smart to make bigger buttons that were touch-friendly for Windows tablets, but as many people will argue, I don't think it made sense on the desktop. But that's not really the problem I have with it.

The first problem is the design itself. They've made improvements over the past few years, but especially to start off with, the UI was inconsistent, filled with hidden menus if you performed the correct mouse click in the correct location, or if you hovered in the right place. It was pretty hard to tell which options would be in which menus, and which menus would be triggered by which actions. It was not very intuitive at all, even if you were using a Surface, which is essentially the device it was designed to run on.

And though I have a problem with the menus for being hidden (and seemingly random in terms of which options were in which menus), that's not even my biggest problem with the Start Screen. My single biggest issue is something subtle enough that many technical people overlooked it, because they tend to think in terms of functionality rather than experience: the Start Menu breaks context every time you load it.

Now I don't know if you'll immediately know what I mean there, and even if you do, you might think "That's a silly thing to complain about." It's not a complaint about functionality. It's a complaint about the psychological impact on the user whenever the Start Menu appears on the screen. To simplify (perhaps to oversimplify) we've developed a bunch of spacial metaphors that allow us to navigate our computers, where we treat things like they're physical objects in a physical location. Things are drawn on the screen in a 2D grid, and then we have some additional dimensional information (e.g. some windows are "behind" others, directories are depicted as "folders" and things are shown as being "in" the folder). So we're generally presented with a coherent spacial realm that we're operating within when we are working on our computers. Sometimes we are presented with very different kinds of spacial realms, such as when you load up a full screen game and you're immersed into a 3D world with drastically different physical rules than are present in your normal "desktop" spacial realm.

So that switch between the "desktop world" and the "game world" is a context switch. Your brain has to change its interpretation of what's going on to account for entering into a different spacial realm with different rules. Most of the time, you don't think much about it when you switch contexts, so it doesn't seem like a hard thing to do. You go from typing in a Word processor to talking on the phone to talking with a person in real life to playing a video game, and it all seems pretty simple. It's kind of not, though. These kinds of context switches take a little toll on your brain whenever they happen, and it takes your brain a few seconds or minutes to recover. You usually don't really notice, but think about when you're in the middle of writing a complicated email, and someone interrupts you for a brief conversation-- when you go back to that email, you might take a few seconds or minutes to get back where you were before you can continue. It's not quite an instantaneous process.

So my problem with the Start Screen is that it sets up a change in context every single time you enter it. The existing spacial context of your desktop environment is wiped away and replaced with a different UI context with different rules. If I want to launch a program that's not on my desktop or task bar, I need to switch contexts to launch it, and then switch back to my original context once it's launched. If you're doing this frequently during the day, it can be pretty damned disrupting. It's just a really, really, extremely stupid UI convention, and I don't know how Microsoft thought it wouldn't be a problem.

No accounting for taste

[Runaway1956]

Or, is it a matter of shills giving an award to the people they are shilling for?

Visit the world of *nix. There are start menus galore. Take your pick. Someone actually gave Microsoft an award for theirs? Phhhhtt.......

Try browsing for an app

[Knutsi]

Try browsing for a specific app that is not in tiles or recents. It's a mess, and the list has tiny width and long scroll down, while the menu has huge space it could use for that when it's obvious the user is browsing installed apps.

Something about Micro$haft!

[Anonymous Coward]

EVERYONE ON THE HATE TRAIN!

Re:Something about Micro$haft!

[kilfarsnar]

EVERYONE ON THE HATE TRAIN!

Maybe, but Microsoft doesn't have to keep shoveling coal into the engine...

Re:Something about Micro$haft!

[Anonymous Coward]

ANTITRUST never4get

Once Again, We're Beta Testing for MS

[dcw3]

Since I have several machines to play with at home, I decided to go ahead with the *cough* upgrade *cough* on one of them. Here are the problems I've encountered in just a couple hours of usage.

1. Windows Explorer has been replaced with MS Edge. I often VPN into work, and attempted to do so with Edge, but had no luck. The good news is that Explorer still exists somewhere on the system. From Edge, there's an option to open one of your favorites in Explorer, and I was able to pin explorer to my bottom bar to avoid having to launch edge. MS seems to have hidden Explorer...it doesn't show up in the list of all apps.

2. iPad no longer charges from USB ports. Other devices, like my Garmin GPS watch does. The iPad still syncs up with iTunes, but refuses to charge.

3. My Nvidia graphics driver crashes occasionally, but relaunches. I am running the latest driver, and they claim they're working on it.

Re:Once Again, We're Beta Testing for MS

[rudy_wayne]

Since I have several machines to play with at home, I decided to go ahead with the *cough* upgrade *cough* on one of them. Here are the problems I've encountered in just a couple hours of usage.

1. Windows Explorer has been replaced with MS Edge.

No, you mean Internet Explorer has been replaced with MS Edge. Windows Explorer is the file manager, which has been renamed to File Explorer, and like everything else in Windows 10 they've made a number of stupid, pointless changes that make it just a little worse

The good news is that Explorer still exists somewhere on the system. From Edge, there's an option to open one of your favorites in Explorer, and I was able to pin explorer to my bottom bar to avoid having to launch edge. MS seems to have hidden Explorer...it doesn't show up in the list of all apps.

This is one of the big problems with the Window 8 and 10 UI. Some things don't show up in the list of all apps. So for example, you have to know to navigate your way to [C:\Program Files (x86)\Internet Explorer] where you will find Internet Explorer.

Every computer I've used forever has a BIOS setting that tells the computer to always turn on the numlock key at bootup. Windows 10 ignores this and every time you boot you have to remember to manually turn on the numlock. If you use the number pad a lot (I do) it's extremely annoying. There's a registry setting that fixes this, but Jeez, how do you fuck up something that has worked forever.

Overall, Windows 10 is completely pointless. After spending considerable time tweaking and trying to get things into a usable state, I was left with a computer that worked reasonably well (if you are willing to live with all the annoyances) but didn't have one single feature that was better than Windows 7, which has none of the annoyances of W 10.

So I wiped the hard drive and restored Windows 7 from a backup (Acronis True Image is your friend).

Re:Once Again, We're Beta Testing for MS

[kilfarsnar]

Since I have several machines to play with at home, I decided to go ahead with the *cough* upgrade *cough* on one of them. Here are the problems I've encountered in just a couple hours of usage.

1. Windows Explorer has been replaced with MS Edge.

No, you mean Internet Explorer has been replaced with MS Edge. Windows Explorer is the file manager, which has been renamed to File Explorer, and like everything else in Windows 10 they've made a number of stupid, pointless changes that make it just a little worse

Yet another example of how stupid it is to call your file manager and Internet browser almost the same thing. I have had to get into the habit of telling users to open a "computer window" because everyone thinks an Explorer window is the Internet browser.

Re:Once Again, We're Beta Testing for MS

[Zarquon]

It's probably to do with smaller notebooks and their lack of a numpad... I had one user that failed to log in a number of times and it turned out that they had last changed their password on a notebook where numlock was turned on at login and some of the alpha keys got remapped.

-R C

Re:Once Again, We're Beta Testing for MS

[Anonymous Coward]

explorer.exe has been named that since Windows 95, and was meant to get you to explore your computer. Internet Explorer (iexplore.exe) was named for similar reasons, but with focus on the internet (specifically the web and FTP) rather than your local computer.

Only people who don't pay attention to details get tripped up with this. And if you're not paying attention to details, it means you don't care. And if you don't care, WHY THE HELL ARE YOU CALLING ME FOR SUPPORT?

There. I fixed it.

Re:Once Again, We're Beta Testing for MS

[freeze128]

Every computer I've used forever has a BIOS setting that tells the computer to always turn on the numlock key at bootup. Windows 10 ignores this and every time you boot you have to remember to manually turn on the numlock. If you use the number pad a lot (I do) it's extremely annoying. There's a registry setting that fixes this, but Jeez, how do you fuck up something that has worked forever.

Windows has done this at least since Windows 2000. Yes, it's annoying. I imagine it's because Windows can't actually read the actual state of the numlock, but can only detect if it's toggled. Rather than risk being 100% wrong about the state of the numlock, they decided to set it to a known value first.

So I wiped the hard drive and restored Windows 7 from a backup (Acronis True Image is your friend).

That's too bad. If you had installed Windows 10 by performing an in-place upgrade, you would have the opportunity to restore your previous OS for 30 days. When you *do* restore, it asks you why you are going back to the older version of windows, and sends this information to Microsoft. I told them it was because advanced functionality was too hard to discover. Since you slammed a true image back onto your PC, Microsoft will never know why you don't like Windows 10.

Re:Once Again, We're Beta Testing for MS

[PRMan]

Or just type "[Windows key]Int". Oh, there it is. If you look in All Apps, it's there in Windows Accessories.

Re:Once Again, We're Beta Testing for MS

[decep]

2. iPad no longer charges from USB ports. Other devices, like my Garmin GPS watch does. The iPad still syncs up with iTunes, but refuses to charge.

Motherboards that were released before or around the time that 1+ amp USB devices were the norm sometimes require an additional driver/filter that allows the USB port to go out of spec and provide the necessary amperage. This special driver is usually provided by the motherboard manufacturer.

All iPad models require 1+ amps to charge.

Re:Once Again, We're Beta Testing for MS

[Anonymous Coward]

If these are the worst problems you have had - this doesn't sound bad at all.

Re:Once Again, We're Beta Testing for MS

[dcw3]

Yup, I would never have thought to look for a browser under accessories, though I should have looked under the program files.

Re:Once Again, We're Beta Testing for MS

[dcw3]

When was that? My ASUS machine is only about a year old, so unless it was recently, this shouldn't be the reason, correct? ASUS does have a built in utility to speed up charging, and I've checked to see if something changed, but it doesn't appear so.

Re:Once Again, We're Beta Testing for MS

[Espectr0]

iPads have never officially been charged from USB ports. You get a dialog "not charging", but leave it overnight (even with the laptop off) and you will get *some* charge. It's just very slow.

I also did the upgrade, and only have had two issues:
you can't click the power icon to change your power plan anymore. You need to go into power settings in the control panel to do it.

I don't like that windows update downloads updates by default and can't be changed. I liked the "notify to download" setting better. Still, Windows 8 only notifies that there are updates from the lock screen, which is inferior to windows 7 behaviour that actually notified you in the tray.

Re:Once Again, We're Beta Testing for MS

[dcw3]

Hmmm. Officially, or not, it's always worked on this, and a couple other machines. Whatever trickle of a charge that's getting through, it's not enough to use the iPad during that time.

I agree, I've been doing it that way for a long time. I didn't like what they did forcing a version of Explorer with an update once, and it was unusable. I also had to manually remove one update a couple of times that kept breaking my VPN. I skipped over something yesterday about a "fix" for that...haven't tried it yet. http://www.itproportal.com/201...
http://dailynewsgeek.com/tech-...

It's sandboxed

[tepples]

But given that Microsoft has tried this live content crap several times before, and had to pull them precisely because they were security exploits ... I was surprised to see them be such a prominent feature of Windows 8.

Microsoft could safely do this because the Windows Runtime sandbox used by Universal Windows Platform applications is more stringent than the user account separation used by Windows desktop applications.

Re:It's sandboxed

[gstoddart]

Right, because I trust every vendor when they tell me how the new hotness is 100% safe and secure.

We'll see what time and reality bears out.

If it's secure, awesome. If not, well, my cynicism will be well founded.

Over the long term, my cynicism has proven to be established by what happens in reality. So you'll excuse me if I don't simply take that claim on faith.

Microsoft is not someone who I take their security claims at face value, they'll have to earn that over a lot of years, because my distrust is a lot of years in the making.

Re:It's sandboxed

[freeze128]

You know, Microsoft has said many times for each of it's new Operating Systems, "It's the most secure Windows ever". They said it for Windows XP, Windows 7, and Windows 8.

...But not for Windows 10. They know it's not secure. It wasn't intended to be secure. It was intended to leak all your information to Microsoft.... And it does.

Re:It's sandboxed

[Anonymous Coward]

That's interesting. Also I've managed to get a virus on XP, 7 and expecting 8 to get one soon. Checks out.

I had no idea...

[Anonymous Coward]

...you could buy an IDSA Design Award.

Should have gone for R/T Car of The Year too. That's more affordable than you might think, too.

This IS Bizarro world!

[kimvette]

Yesterday Kim Jong Un was awarded a peace prize for "peace, justice and humanity."
Today Microsoft gets a design award for releasing a UI ever slightly less crappy than Windows 8s, and nowhere near as good as Windows 7.

We somehow ended up on htraE (aka Bizarro World) this week.

Re:This IS Bizarro world!

[KatchooNJ]

So when is Be Cruel To Animals Week?

Award for menu that limits you to 512 programs?

[BenJeremy]

What sort of morons put an arbitrary limit on the number of items your menu has?

Apparently there is a fix in the pipeline, but it's a bit stupid to have released this with a known issue that should be a simple fix. In this day and age, there is simply no excuse for an arbitrary limit on the number of items in your start menu. I easily have 1500 unique items (Microsoft being one of the worst offenders of dumping lots of useless entries into my start menu) in my Start Menu->Programs folders, so it's likely something important will be displaced by some application's web URL or an uninstall link.

Re:Award for menu that limits you to 512 programs?

[MancunianMaskMan]

Focus group research has confirmed with a great number of users that people's memory for applications they could possibly want to find in a menu only has a 9-bit index, so "512 should be enough for everyone", right?

Re:Award for menu that limits you to 512 programs?

[Sponge Bath]

512 should be enough for anybody.

Re:Award for menu that limits you to 512 programs?

[Anonymous Coward]

there is simply no excuse for an arbitrary limit on the number of items in your start menu

Back in the day, the start menu was just a "blessed" folder structure under your user account folder, merged with a similar "blessed" folder hierarchy under the public folder.

NTFS limits folders to 2^32-1 items.
FAT32 limits folders to 64k items.
FAT16 (a.k.a. "FAT") limits folders to 512 items.

So you've always had some kind of limit on what your start menu would show, it just depended on your file system. (To be fair, 2^32-1 barely qualifies as a limit in this context.)

Now, the user-customizable parts of the start menu are probably stored in the registry. The registry has its own limits, outlined here. That MSDN page doesn't say if there's a limit to the number of keys in a single registry node, but it wouldn't surprise me if it's 512. If that's the case, the "simple fix" you speak of is probably something along the lines of adding sibling nodes to the parent node, each with an additional 512 keys, then merging them all into the menu at presentation time. That's not simple.

Re:Award for menu that limits you to 512 programs?

[BenJeremy]

Well, for starters, the problem is 512 TOTAL apps, regardless of folder structure. The Start Menu also doesn't support more than one folder level, which in itself is rather dumb. It seems like whoever was in charge of architecting the Start Menu couldn't figure out how to organize the data internally to represent a multi-level tree, though it's a basic pattern every developer should be able to handle.

The limits aren't imposed by the registry (but thanks for playing), and Microsoft has a fix in the pipeline (as I stated, and as you could have read in the link I posted), but it hasn't dropped yet, at least not in yesterday's big update.

I've dealt with arbitrary limits in Microsoft's internals for a long time... going back to having to write my own ini file parser for a Win95 application that had a 3MB configuration file (not my fault) - at the time, the API could only handle 64k of text, and silently accepted larger files, just chopping off the remaining content. My parser handled the larger files with ease, and no arbitrary limits (there is always a limit based on available memory, disk space, etc...). More recently, I discovered Microsoft doesn't really have a strategy for a situation where writing to the registry causes the boot drive to run out of space, resulting in an unbootable machine (I was able to fix it booting PE and moving some files around).

Re:Award for menu that limits you to 512 programs?

[MobyDisk]

512!?!?! That just shows how the start menu has been abused since Windows 98. Microsoft can redesign the start menu / start screen / quick launch bar / pin to taskbar 100 different ways, but they can never sole the problem of stupid installers that create:

FooCorp Software\
FooCorp Software\Foo\
FooCorp Software\Foo\Launch Foo
FooCorp Software\Foo\Uninstall Foo
FooCorp Software\Foo\Readme.txt
FooCorp Software\Foo\Other great offers from FooCorp

512 ought to be plenty, if it weren't for this kind of garbage.

Re:Award for menu that limits you to 512 programs?

[BenJeremy]

Yup, Microsoft themselves are plenty guilty of this:

=========[Programs->Microsoft Visual Studio 2012]==========
    Blend for Visual Studio 2012
    Microsoft Feedback Client
    Microsoft Help Viewer
    Microsoft Test Manager
    PowerPoint Storyboarding
    Visual Studio 2012

=========[Programs->Microsoft Visual Studio 2012->Microsoft Visual Studio SDK]==========
    **WEB** Download Visual Studio Visualization and Modeling SDK
    **WEB** Getting Started with the Microsoft Visual Studio 2012 SDK
    **WEB** Microsoft Visual Studio 2012 SDK Documentation
    **WEB** Visual Studio Gallery
    **WEB** VSX Developer Center
    **WEB** VSX Samples on Code Gallery

=========[Programs->Microsoft Visual Studio 2012->Microsoft Visual Studio SDK->Tools]==========
    Reset the Visual Studio 2012 Experimental Instance
    Start Experimental Instance of Visual Studio 2012

=========[Programs->Microsoft Visual Studio 2012->Team Foundation Server Tools]==========
    Build Notifications

=========[Programs->Microsoft Visual Studio 2012->Visual Studio Tools]==========
    Developer Command Prompt for VS2012
    Dotfuscator and Analytics
    MFC-ATL Trace Tool
    Remote Debugger Folder
    Spy++ (64-bit)
    Spy++
    VS2012 ARM Cross Tools Command Prompt
    VS2012 x64 Cross Tools Command Prompt
    VS2012 x64 Native Tools Command Prompt
    VS2012 x86 Native Tools Command Prompt

25 entries... and I have several versions of VisualStudio installed. VS2010 has 33 entries. Uninstall entries are kind of annoying, because I'd rather just use the Programs and Features panel, and not have any accidental clicks on an uninstaller app.

Re:Award for menu that limits you to 512 programs?

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree 512 is a silly limit, however I would never call a power of 2 "arbitrary", especially in a discussion about computers.

Craming a touch interface on a PC badly

[sjbe]

The issue is people want different things.

Wrong. The problem is that Microsoft tried to cram a touch based interface onto a keyboard/mouse based system where it was wildly inappropriate. It has nothing to do with expectations and EVERYTHING to do with usability. Age and experience of the user is irrelevant to the problem. I'm perfectly comfortable getting used to a new interface despite being relatively older but Windows 8 just makes NO sense on a PC. All the interface conventions are for a touch based tablet which does not and never will work well with a mouse/keyboard.

In the end it's about sales, and "new and pretty" sells, and the changes aren't all that big of a leap for the younger crowd. It is what it is, adapter or die.

Microsoft gets virtually all their Windows sales through OEM channels where there is minimal or no choice in operating system. This wasn't users wanting new and pretty, it was Microsoft trying to integrate two different interfaces so they could get in the game for tablets and mobile devices. And they blew it. They didn't allow for the fact that the requirements of a PC are different than those of a tablet. Any system that wants to have both touch and keyboard/mouse input will need to be designed with that in mind from the ground up. You cannot take one or the other and cram them together. Microsoft didn't learn their lesson from their earlier attempts for tablet PCs where they attempted to put some touch features on a bog standard PC. Windows XP wasn't designed for that. Then they went 100% to the other extreme with Windows 8 and took a tablet interface and tried to cram it onto a PC which (predictably) didn't work either.

Re:Craming a touch interface on a PC badly

[kilfarsnar]

I'm perfectly comfortable getting used to a new interface despite being relatively older but Windows 8 just makes NO sense on a PC. All the interface conventions are for a touch based tablet which does not and never will work well with a mouse/keyboard.

And it makes even less sense on a server OS. WTF, Server 2012??

As useful as the Nobel Peace Prize...

[Anonymous Coward]

Like Obama won a Nobel Peace Prize for not being Bush, Windows 10 earned an award for not being Windows 8.

nothing says we did it right like

[Anonymous Coward]

And nothing says we did it right like paying an org, or stuffing votes ala ISO to tell people what we want them to hear. Come to think of it, didn't Microsoft assign 12 employees, including a few psychologists, just to make sure an article in a magazine was written how Microsoft wanted it?

But I'm sure THIS time there was no back channel handy work.

Yeah Right

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows 10 is just another ugly modern "minimal" GUI, and anyone who says it's a great design has been blind for the last 20 years and has regained their sight for the first time. If Windows 10 should win an award, it should be for "being the most rapid spreading virus in all of human history!"

Start screen?

[kilfarsnar]

Some say it’s awesome, others hate it and want the Start screen back

No. No they don't.

"as it comes brings together" - LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

Try proofreading your summary before posting it.

Secondly, the IDSA are a bunch of idiots. The Windows 7 Start Menu was perfect, but somebody gets paid to change things, at Microsoft, and if they don't come up with a 'new idea' for the Windows interface, they don't have a job. Whoever employs them is an idiot, and is destroying Microsoft from within. They haven't got a clue about user interface design.

Customization?

[valnar]

If the new menu is so darn nice - nice enough to win awards, why is the fact it is customizable a good thing? Who would want to change perfection? :)

IDSA?

[PPH]

It Doesn't Suck Anymore?

Microsoft Is Now Run By Imbociles

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft seem to do everything more wrong... they must have marketing and sales people in lead positions.

There decisions lack engineering perspective.

The results speak for themselves... Win 8 was the dumbest thing I've ever seen, and windows 10 still stinks of bloat, DRM, malware and Metro dung.

Installing Mint Cinnamon 17.x has been a breath of fresh air... it does everything an OS should and no more.

Who?

[Anonymous Coward]

Never heard of them. And I can't seem to find any awards for years other than 2015 either. Microsoft shill corporation gives Microsoft an award? I wouldn't be surprised.

Ok

[stackOVFL]

What I summarize form all of this is a) if you're running Win 8 go ahead and upgrade. b) If you're running something earlier than Win 8 you should hold off. BTW, did you know you have to pay for solitaire if you want a ad free version? http://www.pcgamer.com/windows...

Vendor lock-in

[Snufu]

'...the new menu makes it easy to access files across platforms, as it brings together [Windows] PCs, tablets, and phones...'

The criteria for the award is that that the interface is effective at locking users into Windows hardware devices they don't want? Did it make the desktop interface better? No. It just compels you to buy other Windows devices.

Why?

[guacamole]

I have used Windows 10 for a couple of weeks, and so far the Start Menu the way it's shipped is more of a hindrance. The Start Menu becomes somewhat usable once you remove all or most of those tiles from it, remove all the defaults, and then add a bit of your own customizations. The end result is not much different from Windows 7. Why should Windows 10 get any big awards for it. Who is funding IDSA right now?

Re:Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

Who is funding IDSA right now?

Sounds like Microsoft is.

Classic Shell

[Virtucon]

Classic Shell just works and it still works on Windows 10 even as a release candidate.

Re:Classic Shell

[sl149q]

I've been running Windows 8.1 for the last year with Classic Shell. It ends up being a much better Windows 7 then. My preferred version of Windows in fact.

Did my first Windows 10 yesterday. Poked at the new and "improved" start menu for ten minutes. Installed Classic Shell and got back to work.

It looks like Windows 10 with Classic Shell ends up being a (possibly, maybe, hopefully) better Windows 7 then!

oh boy

[Anonymous Coward]

A lot of things did not make it into the final release and it's no surprise. MS has a long history of rushing unfinished buggy(You would thing this would be exclusive to open source) products to the market and charging you $$$ and this is what corporations do best. I prefer kde 4.xx over Windows 7 and Windows 10 start menu.

I would change to Linux if it was more like Windows when it came down to software installation(old and new) without the need of the internet to fix dependency issues. I wouldn't have this problem if U.S internet was reliable, stable, and cheap. I can install new software offline on a new Windows 7 install without sp1 just fine but trying this method with linux just wont work.

IDSA Design Awards.

[westlake]

The IDSDA's origins can be traced back to the legendary industrial designer Henry Dreyfuss. The geek is only kidding himself if he thinks these awards are not to be taken seriously.

The best designed products of 2015

worthless..

[nult]

IDSA Design Award is the equivalent of getting a Grammy; its total BS and doesn't make you credible .

Works well across platforms...

[QuietLagoon]

... but still sucks on any one of them.

Better than 8, but...

[garyoa1]

Still no cigar. And to make matters worse, if you had classic start menu installed... it removes it.

Re:Better than 8, but...

[Virtucon]

4.2.3 is fixing most of that for me at least. Although I have 4 systems remaining to be upgraded, all with "Something Happened" upgrade issues. I wish Microsoft had spent more time on quality rather than worrying about line widths and decorations for a fucking start menu that's already been solved.

No good deed.

[danmoran]

Awards are a sham anyway. To award Microsoft for fixing the monstrosity known as Metro is like naming the 1960 Ford Comet Car of the Year because it's not an Edsel.

Re:No good deed.

[KatchooNJ]

Great analogy! Wish I had some points today. :-)

You're right

[Anonymous Coward]

It's about bill gates Vaccinating the world, providing us with common core, and altering the DNA of humanity

Opinions are always divided

[sjbe]

If you read the forums and the news pieces with comments, you'll see opinions are really divided:

Opinions are almost always divided. Some people think Windows 8 is great even though the consensus seems to be that it's crap. (I agree with the consensus opinion for the record) I agree that Microsoft is trying to make a single unified interface which isn't a dumb idea in principle but hard to pull off in practice. I haven't tried Win10 yet so I'm reserving judgement but I haven't been impressed with their design decisions so far so I'm not optimistic. Of course every other version of Windows is crap so maybe Win10 will be one they get right. (XP=good, Vista=crap, Win7=good, Win8=crap,...)

I think objectively the Windows 8 interface is a failure for people using a mouse/keyboard. Not to say with adjustments they couldn't get it working well but I have NO interest in working with Win8 any more than I absolutely have to.

Re:Opinions are always divided

[iampiti]

What I meant is that there seems to be no middle ground as people either are very happy or hate it.
I have used Win 10 in a VM and despite the Start menu sort of coming back (much simpler than the one in 7) I still think that 7 is better.
Sadly, I depend too much on Windows-only software so I'll have to upgrade eventually.

looks like they missed ...

[Anonymous Coward]

the sarcasm tag

Oops

Meh, its a OS that runs a browser

[Anonymous Coward]

Anymore isn't Windows OS just the conduit to run a web browser? Is that not why we saw so many Chromebook's hit the market? Do most people need any kind of robust operating system? Hasn't Microsoft proved that itself by offering Office 365 on many platforms? Is it any wonder Microsoft had to give away Windows just as Apple did with OS X? Nobody is willing to pay for a OS anymore. You stuff runs on a browser and if not a browser is so platform neutral its makes no difference what OS you use. When people began to understand that Windows was not the reason you can do things with a PC. It became clear that eventually the OS would lose its value in the market. What Microsoft, Apple and Google do is make money other ways with services, ads, hardware and specific apps.
If your willing to learn a operating system, any of them will do pretty much what you need them to do.

They must have completely ignored Office 2013

[dwywit]

White, light gray, and dark gray are the choices.

Chalk up another win for the design team.

IDSA's website looks like shit

[Khyber]

They have zero reason to be awarding ANYTHING regarding design.

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Are you kidding? Is this real life?

[Anonymous Coward]

Just judging by the entry link that leads to this MS pandered and influenced love story over a fatally flawed and over-intrusive abomination, I just couldn't walk away without saying that of the week that i've had Windows 10, the start menu has completely broken on 7/7 days. Sometimes it happened randomly, other times it just goes on vacation. Problem is, nothing else works, not search, nor any of the other WB+(key) shortcuts. It's clear that Microsoft brought it back for novelty and sales, nothing else. But at least leave it the way it was, not the same thing as windows 8/8.1 CRAMMED into a tiny bottom left box.

By the way, I would like to add that of the 18 or so default tiles listed in my start menu, and given a slim to non-existent margin of error, everyone elses... 11 of them are utterly useless and are meant to be monetarily inclined. I guess what i'm trying to say is...

Lady GaGa shouldn't be on my start menu, unless I put her there. Let's not pretend that this whole charade is to "learn me", or what I like. I'm not hard to figure out, I play the drums like a kid out in the rain, i'm into tattoos and rock music, and I have what the ancient Romans called; a huge dong. Of those 4 things, entertain me. Don't show me what my peers accomplished a million miles away from where they lay their heads. I'm not even asking for much here. Just maybe a configuration of tiles with two Thumbs up emojis that say: "Good morning, ____! Here's some stuff about your favorite band, some news about Pearl or Gretch, or hell... even PDP... Congratulate me on my large size and show me a damn Ren and Stimpy rerun while I get my Lucky Charms on.

Ok, flame away. This is the first time i've ever seen this site, so I won't be back i'm sure. But I do thank you for the avenue to direct my rage. 3..../3

Classic Start Menu unbeatable?

[Anonymous Coward]

The Classic Start Menu (from like Win95 to XP, still available in 7, but gone since) is the fastest way to start your programs that I have ever found. Hear me out.

First, like any set of shortcuts, you need to fine-tune it. You make your own shortcuts on the desktop, define your own keyboard shortcuts in Windows, whatever; this is no different: you've got to create it as you see fit. The Classic Start Menu allows you to open, what, maybe 30 items in two keystrokes (100+ in three). Specifically, in the first 'column' of Start, add shortcuts with unique first letters/numbers. Some are taken by default (ideally we'd be able to configure these too, but it's only a handful), but, for example, add Outlook to that column. Pressing Win then O opens outlook (not Win+O, which isn't as easy). Add Excel to the column; pressing Win then E opens Excel. If you then add Exchange to the column, pressing Win then E won't immediately open the program, because there are two E entries; the first letter/number needs to be unique. For every unused letter of the alphabet, ten numbers, the down and up arrow keys, and random punctuation-defined keys, there's a lot of space for two-keystroke openings. And this is fast, because the first is always the Win key. So...

vs. Command Line Interface: assuming your version of Windows boots straight to a CLI, you're not opening items in two keystrokes: too easy to have those land coincidentally in some other command. If you allow the command line to catch the Win (or other) modifier key, you've just created the start menu I've described above, but without any visual assistance. A close second to me.

vs. Mouse: seriously, even if I assume you already have your hand on the mouse, by the time you start moving the pointer towards your shortcut, I've already got the item open.

vs. Win7+ "Start Menus". Pressing the Win key puts the focus into the search bar, where even if you managed to lock items down to single character recognition, you still have to press the enter key. In practice, to open, say, Outlook, you'd need to type "outl" before Outlook rose to the top of the result list, maybe just "ou". Also, as new documents/programs are installed, this will vary. Add a document called "Outlook shortcuts.doc", and opening Outlook in this manner gets longer.

vs. built-in keyboard shortcuts. Windows requires at least two (only two?) modifier keys that must be pressed together to fire this off. CTRL+ALT+character. More overhead than the classic start menu, and there's no easy way to manage these shortcuts; if you want to review them, you need to look at the properties of each of the shortcuts, and I think that if you delete the actual .lnk shortcut, the keyboard shortcut remains in the registry? To manage your Classic Start Menu, just press the Win key, and you can see it.

vs. one-key shortcuts. Unless your keyboard has a row of shortcut keys that can be defined to open some items, you'll be opening things unnecessarily whenever you type. That said, these dummy keys are definitely fewer key strokes, but you're going through a hardware solution now.

Seriously, I'm open to suggestions for an easier-to-maintain, faster-to-execute system than the Classic Start Menu.

What did it win for, not working?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow. I just installed Windows 10 and I have no start menu. Nothing happens when I click on it. It also took about an hour for windows to run and the performance of all apps went into the toilet. Thank you for foisting this untested piece of crap on us. I love spending time on the internet trying to troubleshoot a BRAND NEW WIDELY DISTRIBUTED product that clearly did not get any QA. Keep on cost cutting people. One of these days I'm going to send Microsoft a bill for MY time fixing THEIR BS.