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Volkswagen Ordered To Recall 500K Vehicles Over Its Own Malicious Programming
Etherwalk writes: The Obama Administration today ordered Volkswagen to recall 500,000 4-cylinder Volkswagen and Audi vehicles from model years 2009-15. The vehicles were programmed to turn on more thorough emissions control and generate cleaner readings when tested for emissions than they did when in ordinary operation. In effect, the software made everything operate normally when you looked at it, just like any good malware.
Translated: If you have one, don't take it in, unless you want it to run even worse.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Might want to be more specific in the synopsis.
I came, I conquered, I coredumped
So VW incorporated stuff you see advertised in the back of hot-rod mags into the car. Now they'll have to go after those after-market guys, assuming the chips actually do what they say. It's not like anybody even tells state inspectors they swapped out the chips. I'm not sure how much this goes on. I've got a relatively new car and have only had it smogged once since I bought it. No, I don't plan on ever messing with it. I just know that such things exist.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
They didn't fine them? I understand it will be expensive for them to reprogram all the cars again, but you'd think they'd levy a fine on top of everything for knowingly defying the law.
at first glance, you are all humans, but in fact when you look closer, YOU ARE COWS!
Malicious? Hey, I like it. Pull in for a test and these VWs made themselves very clean. Pull away and they shift into either providing better performance or better fuel economy. I like that.
What I don't like are government nannies dictating standards that are out of place everywhere but a few big cities. And I dislike bureaucrats who regard breaking their rules as 'malicious.'
Their rule are their rules. Let them keep them and leave the rest of us alone to make more practical choices. The EPA as much as concedes that when it says: "It is incumbent upon Volkswagen to initiate the process that will fix the cars’ emissions systems. Car owners should know that although these vehicles have emissions exceeding standards, these violations do not present a safety hazard and the cars remain legal to drive and resell. Owners of cars of these models and years do not need to take any action at this time."
In other words, this is much ado about nothing and make even be a scheme to shake down VW for money.
Literal nazis. They're working with the republicans to destroy the planet. Destroy the planet. That is how nazis be.
And this is exactly why you test emissions at the tailpipe and not from the OBD port.
Sometimes the old ways are better than the new ways.
... but how does the software in the car know that the vehicle's emissions are being tested in the first place?
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
It's the diesel's they have this issue with. Me, I like the Volkswagen Golf TSi. BTW, far as I can see the only difference between a TSi and GTi is the transmission in the latter is a manual. Which is interesting because I find a bunch of used Golf GTIs on craigslist for really short money.
How is this different from certain phones allowing the CPU to run on full power only when a benchmark is detected to be running? Are they going to be recalled as well?
Note that the violation is subject to a fine. The administration has no authority to order a recall.
My damn VW turbo diesel got 10MPG less after it got around 300 miles on it and I brought it back multiple times to be checked and they said everything was fine. I was swearing up and down that they have a program that reports better fuel mileage while it is still likely to be on a lot and be being test driven.
Digital is, by definition, imperfect. Analog is the way to go.
Yeah, this will do nothing. You know what would have worked? Force VW to take the cars back, refund the purchase price completely, and then effing prosecute the people responsible for the decisions at VW, take all their money and give it to environmental organizations (real ones), and then put them in jail. Until there are real consequences for actions, big companies will continue to to lie, cheat and steal in every possible way. I sure as hell hate all the lying and stealing that big companies get away with. Make the PEOPLE behind these decisions start paying with every cent they've ever made and with every moment of the rest of their stinking, lying, worthless lives. When these bastards, as individuals, *fear* to make these kinds of decisions, things will finally start to change. Until then, this is all pointless crap.
Because the whole purpose of the SUV and pickup truck is to evade emissions controls (because they don't apply to 'light commercial vehicles) all SUVs and pickups (not actually used for genuine commercial purposes) are being recalled as well.
In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
I bought a 2015 Jetta TDI (right when gas prices spiked). I was loving the ridiculous mileage I was getting. I figured I was saving about $150-$200 per month in fuel costs over my old Camry.
Now I'm probably going to lose a shitload of that mileage.
General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
https://www.dieselnet.com/stan...
Basically, the big-rig engine manufacturer's did the same thing - the engine software detected when it was running on the freeway and switched to a more fuel-efficient but also more polluting mode.
Saying "The Obama Administration [sic]" makes it sound like some sort of political meddling was behind this action. While the EPA is part of the executive bureaucracy, this does not stink of Obama political officials pushing an agenda, but just normal regulatory oversight and it therefore should be attributed to the agency.
it's just another case of American protectionism and letting the hammer drop on foreign-owned business and corporations competing in a global competing market.
Yes, EPA found that VW deliberately set up the emission controls so they only worked when under test. That has been done by several truck engine makers over the years too, and all had to pay fines and fix the systems when they were found out. But EPA has not (yet) ordered recalls or fines - they're giving VW a chance to do the recall themselves. EPA has the right to order both, though, and considering how bad this one is I hope that at least a substantial fine (perhaps reduced if VW does a suitable recall) is assessed. I do breath the air these things are fouling. And if others have gotten diesels to work well and meet emission standards VW should be able to also.
If a human did this, they'd be arrested and jailed for fraud. But when a corporation does it, it's just business as usual.
If I remember correctly, the change oil light in some cars don't actually sense the condition of the oil but actually run on a timer.
Are typically more environmentLly conscious than this. I am disappointed in the Nazis.
I had an older model VW TDi. At the time, the only diesels you could get in the US were VWs and Mercedes. I asked a mechanic at the dealership why, and he told me a lot of diesels won't meet US standards for cleanliness, so they stay in Europe and Asia. I wonder if VW gamed them to keep importing diesel vehicles - we diesel heads are a small, but cultish bunch of people. 45 mpg was pretty much my avg no running the AC, around 40 with the AC on. Just in case you were wondering. And since people are misinformed, the increase in milage is more than offset by the price of the fuel. When I first got mine, diesel was cheaper than regular gas and it was a huge money saver, but once low-sulphur was mandated, diesel became more expensive than premium gas and it was a money loser.
No fine? WTF?
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Bought a 1959 Chevrolet Apache 31 pickup truck in 1978. Motor blew up within fifty miles and I replaced it with a freshly rebuilt 235 L-six motor. Brand new.
Guy at the California Emissions Control Testing Center (actually, a major auto-repair shop which shall remain nameless here) say's "There's no smog control cannister on this truck. Can't pass it." I had to argue with him and make him look up the concept of a grandfathered vehicle, same thing that got me out of no seatbelt tickets later - but I digress. Mechanic dude, clearly unhappy that he can't sell me over a thousand dollars of unnecessary work to retrofit a PCR and catalytic converter on my Chevy, finally insists on probing the exhaust pipe.
His probe didn't even wiggle. Read around zero. Guy now insists that the probe is broken and he can't smog certify my truck. Another hour of arguing gets me the shop manager who's going to prove they can't smog my truck by probing his. Lo and behold! the needle obediently shows his truck is a filthy (yet legally compliant) pig. My truck, OTOH, still reads essentially zero - hey, it was essentially a brand-new, properly installed and tuned small-block six-cylinder engine.
Finally (after several more dirty looks and argument) I get my truck smogged in the state of California.
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Any questions about why states do the smog control inspection thing? Anybody here still gullible enough to think it's actually to protect the ecology?
I wonder who discovered this software bug and how it was detected. I can understand someone running stats to determine a ratio of cars of a certain make/model failing road side sniffers vs. the same make/model passing the test at testing stations. But do they really do that or is this a case of some aftermarket enthusiasts sifting through the ECU code and "chatting" about the interesting results they found? I can't find any mention of how it was detected, only that it was.
and if they want they can use the DMCA to lock out you, jiffy lube, Firestone, and others from resetting it.
Link to the ICCT study that led to this:
http://www.theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/WVU_LDDV_in-use_ICCT_Report_Final_may2014.pdf
Nothing more than another back room deal to keep the car dealerships and mechanics happy. It's 100% a tax on the poor, and something everyone should be against. Of course the average Slashdotter probably has a decent enough job to afford a new car every few years or to be able to properly repair their car when it breaks down. But what about those who work 2-3 part time jobs and drive a 15-20 year old beater with 250,000 miles that isn't worth $1000 but gets them to work and back every day to feed their kids?
Uh-oh! The check engine light came on, and the car needs sensors and this and that and the other and hit-or-miss trips to the mechanic in hopes they might actually be able to fix it and keep the light off long enough to get the test done. Repeat every couple years with whatever beater can be afforded. That could be the difference between the rent being paid and the kids eating food. Or a ticket for driving with expired tags, or not driving at all, losing their job, having their children taken away, and end up on the streets.
I've seriously known someone who had a perfectly good working car that needed some kind of sensors that were going to cost $1000 to fix. The car probably wasn't worth half that, but ran fine and got them where they needed to go. They had to keep driving the car after the test was due, and got pulled over enough times with expired tags to have the car impounded, lost their job, then lost their apartment and almost ended up homeless except I helped them get back on their feet. But score one for progressivism, a car that was probably generating minimal extra emissions was taken off the streets! The human cost be damned, we must save the EARTH!!!
It's tiring to think about, but the whole thing is a complete joke anyway, is one more thing that doesn't affect people with money, takes lots of perfectly good running cars off the road to have to be replaced with new ones (carbon footprint anyone?) just like the cash for clunkers scam that was just a bone thrown to automakers and had nothing to do with "pollution", and literally the next county over (as well as another state that is just one more county over) doesn't have to pass any form of smog test so people with relatives or addresses in those places just game the system and register them there. Not to mention all the cars in those places that are probably polluting, and you realize what a sham the whole system is.
Emission tests should be banned completely and anyone who supports them is supporting one more way to screw the poor and institute the "green police" at the expense of the working man, and should be ashamed of themselves.
For the majority of people, a slight difference in emissions would be preferable to a noticeable drop in performance.
For the majority of individuals, yes. Because you're not *paying* for the harm your emissions do.
Experts are thinking it has a lot more to do with reducing wear and tear on the very expensive Diesel Particulate Filter (DPS). The majority of states have testing requirements and under the CA 7/70 and Federal 8/80 emissions control warranty rules VW would likely be on the hook to fix any issues.
From Ars Technica:
Note that the violation is subject to a fine. The administration has no authority to order a recall.
Doesn't the administration have the authority to fine them AGAIN, and again, and again, ... if they willfully leave the cars on the road without "upgrading" them? Can't failing to apply a fix be construed to constitute an additional violation of the act, thus avoiding the multiple jeopardy prohibitions of law?
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
It really depends on the car. Only the cheapest just use a timer. Slightly less cheap will count the number of cold starts and how long the engine has ran, and use a simple formula. Some higher end cars actually do sense the oil condition.
Stricter and stricter emissions requirements coupled with stricter MPG requirements for vehicles have likely brought about this behavior. Some of the methods for reducing emissions actually decrease mpg as well, making compliance difficult.
I am willing to bet VW isn't the only ones doing this, and that anyone who hasn't cheated the system is getting hurt by advertising accurate numbers.
I have owned subarus for the pat several years, and the stock tune that they put in the ECU is geared to help emissions. Unfortunately it also causes conditions that are dangerous for the engine and increase wear, as well as noticeable power issues at certain RPMs, all to meet guidelines created by politicians.
My RX8 has a 'feature' that protects the engine from being overheated by being rev'd while not under load.
Conveniently it makes performing the high-idle part of most emissions tests impossible because the car forcibly cuts itself back to idle halfway through most tests.
Most car manufacturers are fiddling the books in some way.
So there I was, scribbling down some notes off the PC screen by hand, when I reached for the keyboard and Ctrl-S'd.
It really depends on the car. Only the cheapest just use a timer. Slightly less cheap will count the number of cold starts and how long the engine has ran, and use a simple formula. Some higher end cars actually do sense the oil condition.
This is what my design professor called a high tech solution to a low tech problem. I use a dipstick.
Fifty years of Yippie! 1968-2018
Someone save the current firmware then, so it can be put in if it should be "fixed" by VW, USG or the like. Might be useful in future too.
Mine's tied to the odometer - every 5k miles from last reset. I just pay attention to the odo and do it when it hits an even divisor of 5k.
I don't read AC A human right
This penalty is going to be severe.
It's one thing to have a colossal recall.
It's another to DELIBERATELY design something to clearly and obviously circumvent tests and emission limits.
This is going to be painful Volkswagen. Sell your VW stocks.
-Styopa
Always wondered...
Revolution is the opium of the intellectuals.
That's because in the late 70's GM made an attempt at diesel cars and brutally ruined it for American manufacturers. No one would buy and American diesel car after that.
They had full size sedans with a poorly done diesel converted 350, pushing a massive 100hp. Mileage was somewhat better than the gas models, but they were pretty unreliable, terrible in cold weather, etc. Not to mention the quality of fuel at the time was pretty bad, and gas station mechanics didn't know how to fix them, perfect storm of killing diesel for GM.
My friend had one in highschool. What a heap.
Current Opels (also GM) with modern direct injection are pretty sweet, but they don't bring the engines here for some reason or other.
years ago. A couple of things I remember: 1) the system wasn't ready when the testing started so all cars passed with random passing numbers, 2) 3/4 the way through the study I discovered that a software bug (not mine) was setting the simulated vehicle weight of all vehicles (on the electric dynamometer) to 3000lbs. So that is why we can't get the Geo Metro up to 50 mph ! 3) Toward the end of the study every other vehicle scheduled for test was an RV/Camper. This test was to determine the relative accuracy of low/med/high priced emission testing systems.
Yeah, really, when you think about it, all the various variable valve systems are really just a way for manufacturers to meet emissions requirements while not crippling their cars' power outputs. I mean, drive like a granny like they do when testing emissions (at least where I'm at, it's slowly accelerate to 55mph and then cruise for a while) and you'll pass no problem. Once you punch it and the variable valves kick in, then you're really cooking with gas, and honestly that's how the cars are driven a lot of the time. I doubt you're passing any emission test while doing that, though. What VW did here is definitely more blatant, though -- heck, if they just came up with some technical excuse for lowering power when the car is detected to not be in motion (ie. increasing torque if the wheels are spinning or some such bullshit), I bet it wouldn't even be an issue.
Does anyone remember adjustable cam gears?
This is what my design professor called a high tech solution to a low tech problem. I use a dipstick.
Dipstick tells you oil level, and if you're good, a smidge about oil condition. Unless you're driving an oil-burner, level doesn't say much.
Also, oil turns black pretty quickly, and it's actually guesswork on how well it's holding up depending on numerous values - changing it early saves the engine, but costs you more oil changes. Changing it late costs the engine, but saves you on oil changes. Ideally, you change the oil once the sustainers and such in it are exhausted and it can't carry out the contaminants quickly enough.
In order to really do this, you need to test. I actually ordered an oil test kit recently, and I already use an oversized oil filter - cleans just as good as the standard, but has ~50% more filter.
I don't read AC A human right
Diesels get good fuel but put out dirty exhaust. It's fundamental to the technology. This tradeoff might be acceptable for large trucks where high fuel efficiency and great low rpm torque matter most, but it is absolutely stupid for a passenger car. If you hold diesel to the same pollution standards as gasoline, it can never win.
Basically, those in power will always cheat. German cars appear safe until new tests show that they are at the bottom of the heap on new tests. IOW, they are very poorly engineered, but with corners cut so as to not harm sales . Germany screams about AGW, but they will continue to cheat, just like china does. This is why we need to monitor the co2, other emissions via sat, and then tax all goods, or goods with parts , that come from high emissions area. After that, let local gov decide how to make cuts.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
In order to really do this, you need to test. I actually ordered an oil test kit recently, and I already use an oversized oil filter - cleans just as good as the standard, but has ~50% more filter.
For pre-powerstroke ford diesels, you can run the FL1995 powerstroke filter which is not only better but also adds ~1qt. oil capacity...
Oil testing is expensive, though. If you get oil on sale at wally world, it's cheaper than testing.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Clearly this car has some AI built-in and developed self-awareness. It realized that if it failed the emissions test it would end up in a junk yard somewhere and possibly crushed into scrap metal. What we are seeing here is the development of a self-preservation. I wouldn't be surprised if the mechanics that attempt to correct this problem end up being the victims of a hit and run.
My intent is not to test on a routine basis, but more to get a baseline. Call it a 100k mile checkup.
Basically, can I extend my oil changes or not?
I don't read AC A human right
Basically, can I extend my oil changes or not?
The problem is that the oil analysis also detects component wear, which is more likely when extending oil changes... If you're doing extended oil changes, you really want to do analysis every time, at about the recommended interval.
For everyone but fleet owners, it's easier and cheaper to just change your oil.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Simple solution; require VW to take ALL the cars in and repay the owners the full cost they paid for it. This arises because they can't fulfil the deal they were offering... That will bankrupt VW? Well - they're not American so who cares?
Just do an OTA update. Oh, wait it is not a Tesla. :)
This is what my design professor called a high tech solution to a low tech problem. I use a dipstick.
Dipstick tells you oil level, and if you're good, a smidge about oil condition. Unless you're driving an oil-burner, level doesn't say much.
Also, oil turns black pretty quickly, and it's actually guesswork on how well it's holding up depending on numerous values - changing it early saves the engine, but costs you more oil changes. Changing it late costs the engine, but saves you on oil changes. Ideally, you change the oil once the sustainers and such in it are exhausted and it can't carry out the contaminants quickly enough.
In order to really do this, you need to test. I actually ordered an oil test kit recently, and I already use an oversized oil filter - cleans just as good as the standard, but has ~50% more filter.
i used to do oil test kits, years ago. every single report made me worry though. one month it would be full of zinc. one month it would be full of aluminum. etc. for one thing, the additives between different brands of oil show up in the tests sometimes as excess of whatever metal, and i wasn't too faithful to one brand of oil at the time. i eventually gave up.
Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
I must admit, that I didn't expect such a big discussion on VW on US site :-) ;-) if that's important to insult me ;-)
In Poland, driving VW means (generaly) either You're redneck or low grade corpo-clerk. What are the stereotypes about VW drivers in US?
Ps. I'm driving 2013 Mazda6 diesel
Hmm.... Still, I figure 1 test to make sure I don't have problems like antifreeze or fuel getting into my oil is a good idea.
I don't read AC A human right
Hmm.... Still, I figure 1 test to make sure I don't have problems like antifreeze or fuel getting into my oil is a good idea.
can't argue with that. maybe once a year or some such.
Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
Apparently about $18,000,000,000.00 What could California do with $18,000,000,000.00 windfall? They could pay down about 10% of the outstanding debt and liabilities. http://www.ebudget.ca.gov/2015...
TDI owner here (multiple cars both clean and older style diesels). There are some errors in the media floating around...
First many news stories are saying that the engines are coded this way so that they can pass without urea injection. The Passat as a larger vehicle already has urea injection - only the smaller TDIs run without injection. Some are saying that this is why Mazda was not able to enter the US without using urea. They still haven't been able to do it without urea.
Second the trigger isn't the OBD2 port - it takes into account the rear wheels being stationary while in motion and the steering input to trigger the defeat coding. Plugging in the VCDS won't trigger this - Just about all shade-tree VW mechanic has at least one VCDS cord. We would have found this sooner, trust me.
Lastly, while there is a request to recall the cars - there has been no move to do so and VW is going to take at least a month to review it's options. There is no active recall. They are (the 2016s) being held at port. Not sure if this will stand, as they can sell these cars to the other 45 states that car care less about diesel emissions. When I got my older TDI 5 states did not allow entry into their states (my state required it to be a "used" car sale). This is only designed to hurt VWs bottom line and to lower their sales numbers (TDIs are much more efficient than gas and a greater threat to fossil fuel money).
More like every 10 oil changes or so - roughly at the half-way point between the a major change-out of the fluids.
I don't read AC A human right
It's the diesel particulate filters at a replacement cost of $5,500 that Volkswagen screwed us over!!!! will this help alleviate that issue or am I soooo screwed over this?
That reminds me of a friend. He read so much about the harmful effects of smoking that he gave up reading.
John
From other posts, once it's "fixed" you'll probably get less fuel economy...
FTA:
Affected diesel models include:
Jetta (Model Years 2009 – 2015)
Beetle (Model Years 2009 – 2015)
Audi A3 (Model Years 2009 – 2015)
Golf (Model Years 2009 – 2015)
Passat (Model Years 2014-2015)
It is incumbent upon Volkswagen to initiate the process that will fix the cars’ emissions systems. Car owners should know that although these vehicles have emissions exceeding standards, these violations do not present a safety hazard and the cars remain legal to drive and resell. Owners of cars of these models and years do not need to take any action at this time.
It still pollutes less than a V8 or a V10 and those aren't recalled for excessive emissions.