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Volkswagen Ordered To Recall 500K Vehicles Over Its Own Malicious Programming
Etherwalk writes: The Obama Administration today ordered Volkswagen to recall 500,000 4-cylinder Volkswagen and Audi vehicles from model years 2009-15. The vehicles were programmed to turn on more thorough emissions control and generate cleaner readings when tested for emissions than they did when in ordinary operation. In effect, the software made everything operate normally when you looked at it, just like any good malware.
Translated: If you have one, don't take it in, unless you want it to run even worse.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Might want to be more specific in the synopsis.
I came, I conquered, I coredumped
So VW incorporated stuff you see advertised in the back of hot-rod mags into the car. Now they'll have to go after those after-market guys, assuming the chips actually do what they say. It's not like anybody even tells state inspectors they swapped out the chips. I'm not sure how much this goes on. I've got a relatively new car and have only had it smogged once since I bought it. No, I don't plan on ever messing with it. I just know that such things exist.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
They got caught, but this kind of thing has been going on in the industry since the 1990s.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
... but how does the software in the car know that the vehicle's emissions are being tested in the first place?
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
It's the diesel's they have this issue with. Me, I like the Volkswagen Golf TSi. BTW, far as I can see the only difference between a TSi and GTi is the transmission in the latter is a manual. Which is interesting because I find a bunch of used Golf GTIs on craigslist for really short money.
And this is exactly why you test emissions at the tailpipe and not from the OBD port.
that old muffler with the hole in it is still good for something
How is this different from certain phones allowing the CPU to run on full power only when a benchmark is detected to be running? Are they going to be recalled as well?
Note that the violation is subject to a fine. The administration has no authority to order a recall.
My damn VW turbo diesel got 10MPG less after it got around 300 miles on it and I brought it back multiple times to be checked and they said everything was fine. I was swearing up and down that they have a program that reports better fuel mileage while it is still likely to be on a lot and be being test driven.
Digital is, by definition, imperfect. Analog is the way to go.
If they had been honest about what they were doing, it wouldn't be such a big deal. But they defrauded consumers, emissions technicians, and the government. Remember, markets work best when market failures such as information asymmetry are eliminated.
Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
Normally posts about Nazis here are just hyperbole, but in this case it is actually correct. The Nazi party created Volkswagen in 1937. Hitler himself ordered the creation of a "people's car." VW still lives-up to those national socialist ideals. Many VW cars were made by literal concentration camp prisoners at Volkswagen's plant at the Arbeitsdorf concentration camp. At one time, 80% of their workforce was slaves. They truly embody socialist ideals.
What? Have you ever turned a wrench?
Sure if you double the power it will wear out faster. But nobody is talking about better turbos and cams. These are water cooled VWs we're talking about. Not worth suping up.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Because the whole purpose of the SUV and pickup truck is to evade emissions controls (because they don't apply to 'light commercial vehicles) all SUVs and pickups (not actually used for genuine commercial purposes) are being recalled as well.
In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
if the engine computer is working normally during the emissions test and in "High power" mode otherwise, then every internal engine part is being stressed beyond its design and you will see premature timing chain failures and premature main bearing failures.
I bought a 2015 Jetta TDI (right when gas prices spiked). I was loving the ridiculous mileage I was getting. I figured I was saving about $150-$200 per month in fuel costs over my old Camry.
Now I'm probably going to lose a shitload of that mileage.
General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
Unless the law says you can't game the test. I believe you meant to make a normative statement instead of a positive one.
I would have hoped they would have to compensate any owner unsatisfied with the degraded performance after the update.
So, there would be millions of examples of other brands of cars on the road right now doing the same thing. Great, they can be tracked down. However, that seems unlikely. Are you sure the industry has been doing this "since the 1990s?" It would be very easy to verify.
Actually, it is. It is fraud.
Saying "The Obama Administration [sic]" makes it sound like some sort of political meddling was behind this action. While the EPA is part of the executive bureaucracy, this does not stink of Obama political officials pushing an agenda, but just normal regulatory oversight and it therefore should be attributed to the agency.
Yes, it is. See: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/7522.
And there is precedent for this specific case. Ford was fined millions for selling Econoline vans that disabled emissions controls at highway speeds, leading to excessive nitrogen oxide emissions. If anything this seems a more egregious violation. See: http://www2.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2014-06/documents/defeat.pdf
They didn't fine them? I understand it will be expensive for them to reprogram all the cars again, but you'd think they'd levy a fine on top of everything for knowingly defying the law.
They didn't fine them ... YET.... You can bet the fines will be forthcoming and that VW and the government are currently spit-balling over the amount though their respective lawyers...
First things first.. You have to determine exactly how many cars are involved, how hard the "fix" will be and get the cars fixed... Oh, and you need to make sure you have time for the bribes and back room deals to happen...
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
Actually, this sort of thing has been going on since the '70's when American manufacturers, hit with emissions testing for the first time, installed air 'injectors' to force more fresh air down the tailpipe. It was completely legal and helped them until they could redesign their engines and introduce catalytic converters.
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
According to a NY Times article, the fine will be $18 billion. That's a b as in BILLION. Not small change.
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell
Selling something as expensive as a car using published information that's intentionally falsified to fool the tester and reviewer is making a financial gain through deliberate misrepresentation. There's a name for that. It's fraud. Fraud is a felony.
You don't understand. The emission testing mode is retarding the engine. The non emission testing is the normal mode.
The car was certified under the "emission testing mode" and so that is by definition the "normal" mode. The car was not certified or anything else in the bogus mode that people are currently driving it around in.
The car was certified under the "emission testing mode" and so that is by definition the "normal" mode.
WRONG
how is this wrong? This is the mode that VW was telling us that the car was running in. It is a crime for them to sell cars that do not operate in this mode. They have "tweaked" the cars on the road, they are not certified, they don't pass, they are in a bogus mode, not a "normal" one.
Air Injection adds a little more oxygen to the exhaust to help burn up any leftover hydrocarbons. It's still used today on some cars.
If a human did this, they'd be arrested and jailed for fraud. But when a corporation does it, it's just business as usual.
If I remember correctly, the change oil light in some cars don't actually sense the condition of the oil but actually run on a timer.
Why is that? In the end they will be getting the exact same automobile that they were told that they were buying.
I had an older model VW TDi. At the time, the only diesels you could get in the US were VWs and Mercedes. I asked a mechanic at the dealership why, and he told me a lot of diesels won't meet US standards for cleanliness, so they stay in Europe and Asia. I wonder if VW gamed them to keep importing diesel vehicles - we diesel heads are a small, but cultish bunch of people. 45 mpg was pretty much my avg no running the AC, around 40 with the AC on. Just in case you were wondering. And since people are misinformed, the increase in milage is more than offset by the price of the fuel. When I first got mine, diesel was cheaper than regular gas and it was a huge money saver, but once low-sulphur was mandated, diesel became more expensive than premium gas and it was a money loser.
No fine? WTF?
And if my mileage drops from the Advertised EPA 45 to 40 because of this? Since I bought my TDi specifically because of the MPG ratings, I would think I should have some recourse.
General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
=====
Bought a 1959 Chevrolet Apache 31 pickup truck in 1978. Motor blew up within fifty miles and I replaced it with a freshly rebuilt 235 L-six motor. Brand new.
Guy at the California Emissions Control Testing Center (actually, a major auto-repair shop which shall remain nameless here) say's "There's no smog control cannister on this truck. Can't pass it." I had to argue with him and make him look up the concept of a grandfathered vehicle, same thing that got me out of no seatbelt tickets later - but I digress. Mechanic dude, clearly unhappy that he can't sell me over a thousand dollars of unnecessary work to retrofit a PCR and catalytic converter on my Chevy, finally insists on probing the exhaust pipe.
His probe didn't even wiggle. Read around zero. Guy now insists that the probe is broken and he can't smog certify my truck. Another hour of arguing gets me the shop manager who's going to prove they can't smog my truck by probing his. Lo and behold! the needle obediently shows his truck is a filthy (yet legally compliant) pig. My truck, OTOH, still reads essentially zero - hey, it was essentially a brand-new, properly installed and tuned small-block six-cylinder engine.
Finally (after several more dirty looks and argument) I get my truck smogged in the state of California.
=====
Any questions about why states do the smog control inspection thing? Anybody here still gullible enough to think it's actually to protect the ecology?
Are you being daft on purpose? Software is as much part of the car's specifications as the hardware. If the car was sold as delivering xxMPG/xxHP/xxTQ but the recall causes these numbers to change, you certainly will be returned with a car that is not the same as you bought it.
I wonder who discovered this software bug and how it was detected. I can understand someone running stats to determine a ratio of cars of a certain make/model failing road side sniffers vs. the same make/model passing the test at testing stations. But do they really do that or is this a case of some aftermarket enthusiasts sifting through the ECU code and "chatting" about the interesting results they found? I can't find any mention of how it was detected, only that it was.
No, they were told they were buying a car with a specific mileage and performance. They had the right to presume that those figures could be had while the car complied with federal law.
If either of those is degraded in order to comply with the law, they were defrauded and have a right to compensation.
For the majority of people, a slight difference in emissions would be preferable to a noticeable drop in performance.
For the majority of individuals, yes. Because you're not *paying* for the harm your emissions do.
Experts are thinking it has a lot more to do with reducing wear and tear on the very expensive Diesel Particulate Filter (DPS). The majority of states have testing requirements and under the CA 7/70 and Federal 8/80 emissions control warranty rules VW would likely be on the hook to fix any issues.
From Ars Technica:
The hell with a fine. No jail?
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
I have a VW TDI that's "suped up" (albeit one older than 2009). Let me assure you that double the power is not only easily doable with bolt-on parts (ECU tuning, larger injectors, a bigger turbo and not much else) but that the result is hardly any less reliable than the factory configuration.
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
Note that the violation is subject to a fine. The administration has no authority to order a recall.
Doesn't the administration have the authority to fine them AGAIN, and again, and again, ... if they willfully leave the cars on the road without "upgrading" them? Can't failing to apply a fix be construed to constitute an additional violation of the act, thus avoiding the multiple jeopardy prohibitions of law?
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
These are water cooled VWs we're talking about. Not worth suping up.
The Audi R10
begs to differ, having dominated LeMans for several years. The low-rpm diesel 4WD "racing truck" left the other conventional twice-the-RPM LMP1s in the dust. TDI is surprisingly sporty, though few enough people buy for that.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Your claim that the engine is "being stressed beyond its design" is wrong because the engine is identical to the ones sold in Europe, where the emissions laws are not ridiculously prejudiced against Diesels and what you call the "high power mode" is the only mode. In reality, the engine is simply over-engineered relative to the demands of the EPA-restricted mode.
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
Freaking last-century slashcode. Linkey.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
The "XX" you're looking for is "95." ODB-II (and thus emissions testing sans tailpipe sensor) became mandatory in 1996.
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
My RX8 has a 'feature' that protects the engine from being overheated by being rev'd while not under load.
Conveniently it makes performing the high-idle part of most emissions tests impossible because the car forcibly cuts itself back to idle halfway through most tests.
Most car manufacturers are fiddling the books in some way.
So there I was, scribbling down some notes off the PC screen by hand, when I reached for the keyboard and Ctrl-S'd.
Update indicates it could be $18 Billion in fines, $37,500 per non-complying car. It is doubtful it will stand at that amount, but a fine is very much in play.
Mine's tied to the odometer - every 5k miles from last reset. I just pay attention to the odo and do it when it hits an even divisor of 5k.
I don't read AC A human right
Recently Ford ended up being shamed into sending checks to a bunch of C-MAX hybrid owners who all consistently got less than the sticker MPG. Ford had re-used the drive train from their Fusion hybrid, which allowed them under EPA rules to skip the retesting for fuel economy. The C-MAX weighed different and had different aerodynamics. Owners who bought a hybrid were justifiably angry that a headline performance number simply was not true, even though Ford did nothing illegal. It is unknown as to how willful the original deception was, or if it was an honest goof up. Enough hay was made over the problem that Ford cut checks for the lifetime increased gas usage and adjusted the sticker MPG numbers to match reality.
With actual intentional fraud for VW, it is reasonable to expect owners to get some monetary compensation for the cost of gas or any lost performance.
This penalty is going to be severe.
It's one thing to have a colossal recall.
It's another to DELIBERATELY design something to clearly and obviously circumvent tests and emission limits.
This is going to be painful Volkswagen. Sell your VW stocks.
-Styopa
Always wondered...
Revolution is the opium of the intellectuals.
But score one for progressivism, a car that was probably generating minimal extra emissions was taken off the streets! The human cost be damned, we must save the EARTH!!!
Quoted for truth.
Why the hell would anyone mod parent as "flamebait"? Human cost is every bit as important in policy consideration as environmental cost. Especially when the same side of the political spectrum that promotes environmental consciousness is also (ostensibly) concerned with income inequality and class disparity.
They didn't fine them? I understand it will be expensive for them to reprogram all the cars again, but you'd think they'd levy a fine on top of everything for knowingly defying the law.
How about bringing felony fraud charges against the director in charge of the project and all other executives who knew about it as well.
years ago. A couple of things I remember: 1) the system wasn't ready when the testing started so all cars passed with random passing numbers, 2) 3/4 the way through the study I discovered that a software bug (not mine) was setting the simulated vehicle weight of all vehicles (on the electric dynamometer) to 3000lbs. So that is why we can't get the Geo Metro up to 50 mph ! 3) Toward the end of the study every other vehicle scheduled for test was an RV/Camper. This test was to determine the relative accuracy of low/med/high priced emission testing systems.
This seems to be a first step. I would assume a clash action lawsuit would follow from owners.
This is what my design professor called a high tech solution to a low tech problem. I use a dipstick.
Dipstick tells you oil level, and if you're good, a smidge about oil condition. Unless you're driving an oil-burner, level doesn't say much.
Also, oil turns black pretty quickly, and it's actually guesswork on how well it's holding up depending on numerous values - changing it early saves the engine, but costs you more oil changes. Changing it late costs the engine, but saves you on oil changes. Ideally, you change the oil once the sustainers and such in it are exhausted and it can't carry out the contaminants quickly enough.
In order to really do this, you need to test. I actually ordered an oil test kit recently, and I already use an oversized oil filter - cleans just as good as the standard, but has ~50% more filter.
I don't read AC A human right
Basically, those in power will always cheat. German cars appear safe until new tests show that they are at the bottom of the heap on new tests. IOW, they are very poorly engineered, but with corners cut so as to not harm sales . Germany screams about AGW, but they will continue to cheat, just like china does. This is why we need to monitor the co2, other emissions via sat, and then tax all goods, or goods with parts , that come from high emissions area. After that, let local gov decide how to make cuts.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
In order to really do this, you need to test. I actually ordered an oil test kit recently, and I already use an oversized oil filter - cleans just as good as the standard, but has ~50% more filter.
For pre-powerstroke ford diesels, you can run the FL1995 powerstroke filter which is not only better but also adds ~1qt. oil capacity...
Oil testing is expensive, though. If you get oil on sale at wally world, it's cheaper than testing.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
"rising sea levels renders populated land uninhabitable on the coasts by mid-century."
You have been deluded, but population growth alone is more than enough trouble to have to deal with. Driving people off the California coast would be a good thing, since they cannot get enough water to survive entirely normal drought cycles. Sadly, I expect them to want to settle just a little further inland.
But I would prefer the seacoast also. I understand.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
Slavery has been used to enhance many political systems. It's not politics, it's people. We are not inherently good.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
Clearly this car has some AI built-in and developed self-awareness. It realized that if it failed the emissions test it would end up in a junk yard somewhere and possibly crushed into scrap metal. What we are seeing here is the development of a self-preservation. I wouldn't be surprised if the mechanics that attempt to correct this problem end up being the victims of a hit and run.
WTF are you on about? As well as your whole fantasy being pure bullshit, there are NO VW diesel engines in the US that use timing "chains". They are all belt driven. There used to be a very rare V-10 diesel that had gear-driven timing.
Yep. Someone who is NOT full of shit. Thank you. To the morons: you can cruise all day at 100 mph with the original unmodified 90 hp 1998-2003 diesel. Cruising at 65 on the level you are using maybe 15-20 hp. Just how much of the time do you think the guy with the souped-up engine is actually putting out 180+ hp? Brief sprints; no more.
I could bury the 85 mph speedo on my 1982 slushbox Audi 5000 Turbo Diesel (a damn decent size car like a palace inside) with the stock 84 hp engine and there was still more left. Yeah, my foot had to be planted on the floor and it took a while to get there, but the engine was purring sublimely and contentedly.
My intent is not to test on a routine basis, but more to get a baseline. Call it a 100k mile checkup.
Basically, can I extend my oil changes or not?
I don't read AC A human right
Basically, can I extend my oil changes or not?
The problem is that the oil analysis also detects component wear, which is more likely when extending oil changes... If you're doing extended oil changes, you really want to do analysis every time, at about the recommended interval.
For everyone but fleet owners, it's easier and cheaper to just change your oil.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Simple solution; require VW to take ALL the cars in and repay the owners the full cost they paid for it. This arises because they can't fulfil the deal they were offering... That will bankrupt VW? Well - they're not American so who cares?
This is what my design professor called a high tech solution to a low tech problem. I use a dipstick.
Dipstick tells you oil level, and if you're good, a smidge about oil condition. Unless you're driving an oil-burner, level doesn't say much.
Also, oil turns black pretty quickly, and it's actually guesswork on how well it's holding up depending on numerous values - changing it early saves the engine, but costs you more oil changes. Changing it late costs the engine, but saves you on oil changes. Ideally, you change the oil once the sustainers and such in it are exhausted and it can't carry out the contaminants quickly enough.
In order to really do this, you need to test. I actually ordered an oil test kit recently, and I already use an oversized oil filter - cleans just as good as the standard, but has ~50% more filter.
i used to do oil test kits, years ago. every single report made me worry though. one month it would be full of zinc. one month it would be full of aluminum. etc. for one thing, the additives between different brands of oil show up in the tests sometimes as excess of whatever metal, and i wasn't too faithful to one brand of oil at the time. i eventually gave up.
Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
I read one article based on tree rings from around the state that California is settling in for a 1,000-year drought. Whether that's true or not, there's nothing normal about today's drought. If farming in the Central Valley got relocated to other parts of the country that has an abundance of water, we would have enough water for people and fishes.
Hmm.... Still, I figure 1 test to make sure I don't have problems like antifreeze or fuel getting into my oil is a good idea.
I don't read AC A human right
Hmm.... Still, I figure 1 test to make sure I don't have problems like antifreeze or fuel getting into my oil is a good idea.
can't argue with that. maybe once a year or some such.
Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
Apparently about $18,000,000,000.00 What could California do with $18,000,000,000.00 windfall? They could pay down about 10% of the outstanding debt and liabilities. http://www.ebudget.ca.gov/2015...
More like every 10 oil changes or so - roughly at the half-way point between the a major change-out of the fluids.
I don't read AC A human right
Nice trolling. I love it when people call the Nazi's socialists, just because it was in the name of their political party. North Korea is nominally a democratic republic, but you don't hear people calling it a democracy. Nazis were pretty anti-socialism; they were responsible for the dissolution of several socialists parties and labor organizations in the 30s. Just ask any of the socialist dissidents that they rounded up. Oh wait, you can't because they were all murdered.
Nice trolling. I love it when people call the Nazi's socialists, just because it was in the name of their political party. ...
Political systems are like a soup-can label, if you go too far in any direction they meet in the back and are the same thing!
You said OR, but I think you meant XOR, and your less-than symbol is missing. Also mpg is not a rate per se (change per unit time).
"I'm so moist I'm sticking to the leather." -Kermit the Frog on The Late Late Show
We have these neat things called plants...
So what made it ok for the OP to ignore the human HEALTH cost? Or are do all the rich people in your area live in drafty shacks next to the interstate while the asthma-free, fully-insured poor live on the coast and breathe in clean air from the fresh ocean breezes?
"I'm so moist I'm sticking to the leather." -Kermit the Frog on The Late Late Show
That reminds me of a friend. He read so much about the harmful effects of smoking that he gave up reading.
John