Slashdot Mirror
Trans-Pacific Partnership Trade Deal Is Reached
An anonymous reader writes: The NY Times reports that negotiators have finally reached agreement over the Trans-Pacific Partnership from the U.S. and 11 other nations. The TPP has been in development for eight years, and has the potential to dramatically strengthen U.S. economic ties to east Asia. Though the negotiations have been done in secret, the full text of the agreement should be published within a month. Congress (and the legislative houses of the other participating countries) will have 90 days to review it and decide whether to ratify it. The TPP has been criticized in tech circles for how it regards intellectual property and facilitates website blocking, among other issues.
Proponents will also have to answer broader questions about whether it stifles competition, how it treats individuals versus large corporations, as if it creates environmental problems. To give you an idea of how complex it is: "The Office of the United States Trade Representative said the partnership eventually would end more than 18,000 tariffs that the participating countries have placed on United States exports, including autos, machinery, information technology and consumer goods, chemicals and agricultural products ranging from avocados in California to wheat, pork and beef from the Plains states."
Proponents will also have to answer broader questions about whether it stifles competition, how it treats individuals versus large corporations, as if it creates environmental problems. To give you an idea of how complex it is: "The Office of the United States Trade Representative said the partnership eventually would end more than 18,000 tariffs that the participating countries have placed on United States exports, including autos, machinery, information technology and consumer goods, chemicals and agricultural products ranging from avocados in California to wheat, pork and beef from the Plains states."
I'm so excited by this. I love surprises.
This is the first thing that came to mind. That, and we are really, really fucked .
You are now ever so much more than a mere consumer you are now officially a commodity.
I'd like to know how much it does/doesn't suck before assuming our elected representatives haven't completely sold us out, as is probably the case. Reducing tariffs sounds like a great idea, until you realize it's the people at the top that almost always benefit and all the workers already at the bottom get to compete with other countries that are even further down, economically-speaking.
I honestly don't know. No. Really. I don't know.
The same thing that has gone wrong with every single trade pact that the US government has ever negotiated: a few get enriched, the rest of us get fewer jobs. Do try to keep up.
Its full 30-chapter text will not be available for perhaps a month
Doubtlessly to be released to public 24 hours before the Congressional vote...
If the reason for keeping it secret is that the negotiators didn't want to be swayed by day-to-day changing public opinion, what reason not to release the text immediately? It's not as if they have to print it all out; I'm sure there's many a web-designer who could whip up a site with the content of the treaty in less than a day.
Hell, stick it in a TXT file and dump it on an FTP site somewhere. Nominally this agreement is for the betterment of all involved countries; there is no reason not to make the information available immediately.
Unless... say, you don't think the negotiators weren't working in the best interests of the citizens they are supposed to represent, do you?
There's an election going on here. Whether or not Canada signs is depends greatly upon which party wins. Right now, it's pretty much a (nationwide) three-way tie. But that doesn't mean an even sharing of the seats in parliament, as the NDP are expected to "waste" a lot of votes in Quebec, so it's actually a much closer race between the Liberals and incumbent Conservatives.
"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Dark Helmet (Spaceballs)
any one for reclaiming their government from the corporations and plutocrats that have corrupted it to their purposes?
or are we all just going to sit around whining about government, full stop, no further thought on the topic
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Secret meetings, money changing hands, power shifting from the people and representatives to a few rich men. This sounds like the America that I learned about in highschool.
and, might I add, vote the damn thing down without amendments. otherwise, all job types will meet an H1B type competition.
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
I hope now the bureaucrats and big companies have passed it they will now show it to politicans and peasants affected by it? Democracy my butt.
vote trump he will kill this
Of course those morons passed fast track for this TREATY, which it is.
So no matter what nasty surprises are found in it, if anyone actually gets to see it, changing them will next to impossible.
Someone should sue and charge that this is, in fact, a Treaty and subject to the provisions of the Constitution regarding treaties.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
To avoid the tariffs on exporting agriculture, keep the food here, and use it to feed some of the 4 million homeless people. That would be something that a government that cares about it's people would do.
That's right, one day you'll wake up and not be in your own country any more because now we'll be in the TPP.
The preceding post was not a Slashvertisement.
Proponents will also have to answer
You can give China MFN status one day in the name of "human rights" theater and then lecture Americans about the importance of environmental protection the next, and no one anywhere blinks an eye. Exactly when are proponents going to have to answer to anyone, about anything? Elites have been trading US prosperity for various and sundry bad overseas agendas since forever and none of them have ever paid the least price.
Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
... who elected the politicians who let this happen.
Not the American people.. if you go by election results for the last 15 or so years...
However how can a deal between rich countries such as Japan, Australia and the USA be reciprocal with countries like Vietnam were wages are low?
Of course it's more expensive. Unlike the US and Europe, we do not directly subsidize our dairy producers.
Also Canadian milk tastes much better.
By the way, it's the trans-pacific deal. Not the Canada-EU deal. EU is not part of the deal.
The US government can rarely agree on any one subject and this secret treaty has everything including the proverbial kitchen sink (made in Taiwan) in it.
blindly antisocialist = antisocial
Sorry, I don't oppose TTP because of Obama. I oppose it because it is a secret deal, pre approved by the powers that be, and enough (D) and (R) supported it to make it bi-partisan. If you support it, not knowing anything other than it was "Obama says it will be good" then you are the real fool. I bet you'd oppose it if GWB supported it (all other things considered).
The fact is, the whole (D) good (R) bad (Or visa versa) is really getting old. And do not pretend the (D) don't do the very same thing. Blindly following your party is for Sheeple.
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-...
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
Canadian dairy is most certainly rife with protectionism. "Cow medallions" are similar to taxi medallions, with the same problems of corruption. It is illegal to sell milk and cheese without the blessings of the existing producers. Raw milk is dumped down the drain rather than "cheapen" the market. In the end, Canadians pay twice as much due to lack of competition.
The fact is, the whole (D) good (R) bad (Or visa versa) is really getting old. And do not pretend the (D) don't do the very same thing. Blindly following your party is for Sheeple.
I never claimed that the democrats are better in any meaningful way. In fact, if you look at my comment and JE history here you'll find I criticize Obama quite regularly.
Rather, my point is that slashdot is overwhelmingly conservative. Anyone who does not adhere to the conservative agenda is labelled a "socialist" (generally by people who have no clue what socialism actually entails). I haven't decided yet if I like the TPP or not - particularly as we haven't know the full details of the deal yet - but most slashdot members decided long ago simply because they heard it was something that Obama wanted.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
While the media was running stories on the Charleston church shootings, the Senate gave/renewed the ability for the President to enter into and agree the TPP on their behalf.
It's already done.
No, people in Slashdot think this treaty is evil because what is in it has been deliberately concealed by people with a history of being untrustworthy.
Has anyone here ever met anyone who is in favor of the Trans Pacific Partnership?
I mean, I've met people who don't know what it is, but I have yet to meet someone who's all, "Yes! We need this Trans Pacific Partnership to make my life better."
You are welcome on my lawn.
Good buy jobs and cheap drugs.
Did you mean 'bye'?
slashdot is overwhelmingly conservative.
If anything Slashdot is Libertarian. Pro Liberal social policies, pro conservative fiscal policies, with a fair amount of independent thought.
But I could understand liberals thinking /. is conservative, and conservatives seeing it more liberal.
But case in point, there are both liberals and conservatives that both support or reject it. Bernie Sanders isn't really conservative, but opposes TPP vehemently. As does Trump. Strange bed fellows indeed.
http://www.sanders.senate.gov/...
http://www.breitbart.com/big-g...
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
Since Canada, USA and Mexico are all involved in this deal, this will replace NAFTA. To get a better idea of how this will affect you, just look at what NAFTA did.
Then surely, as our nation would be a party to the treaty, we need 8 years to examine it and determine if we should sign it.
Not free with the commercial prison industrial complex, they charge you, pile on interest during your sentence, and even sue states that aren't sending enough prisoners their way. Sound familiar? It better, because now they can argue that the prisons have precedent if this thing passes to sue the states over profit margins. Anyone not calling into their reps and demanding a fight over threat of voting the incumbent out should be shot.
I haven't decided yet if I like the TPP or not - particularly as we haven't know the full details
That is people problem though. FASTTRACK essential means our elected representatives HAVE decided they like, and they largely haven't seen the full details either! More than that the smaller group of officials actually negotiating the thing did not let larger group look at it except under insane conditions where they could not even take notes.
It does not matter if its a good law or not, they way its being enacted amounts to a total subversion of how our system of representative democracy was supposed to work. That should be enough reason to oppose the thing on its own. We need to send the message we demand sunshine in the legislative process!
Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
If anything Slashdot is Libertarian.
Only in that a large number of slashdot members are paullowers, who like to call themselves "libertarian".
Pro Liberal social policies
You're joking, right? We routinely see front page articles telling us that we should all own more guns. We routinely see discussions dominated by people shouting fact-free nonsense about abortion. We often see front page articles about how evil public schools are.
pro conservative fiscal policies
That part I agree with.
with a fair amount of independent thought.
10-15 years ago there was plenty of independent thought here. Now thought itself has become rare.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
Stronger IP protections are generally being welcomed by the creative types I know. I haven't heard much about the rest of the treaty and neither has anyone else so I'm a little puzzled as to what all the chicken littling is about.
Until 1913, customs duties (tariffs) and excise taxes were the primary sources of federal revenue. This was by design of the Constitutional framers. In 1913 the income tax was introduced and coincidentally or not the federal reserve corporation was also established. Provided that globalists corporations shift their tax liability to the most corrupt or more politely business friendly tax haven the funding of the US government falls almost exclusively on the shoulders of the middle class who can afford to pay taxes.
Do not like any provision in this agreement? Tough luck, your elective representatives have no power to enact any change.
This agreement is yet another boon for multinational corporations who own politicians and another step towards global totalitarian government.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be-T J
and the first clue should have been "negotiated in secret". This is almost all the bad IP parts of the bills the Congress has been trying to pass but couldn't because of the public scrutiny (see SOPA, CISPA, etc.). Now they just get to vote "yes" on a "jobs" bill. The only remaining question is can they do it without drooling at the prospect of the campaign finance monies they'll get for doing the bidding of their handlers.
We all know that debugging is 3 times more difficult than writing so the Congress should get at least 24 years now to review and debug the TPP.
The outgoing Communist Party of Canada (CPC) made the deal AFTER the election writ was dropped.
The incoming NDP and Liberals have already announced they will walk away from the TPP.
Dead trade deal.
By the way, this will cost the US 500,000 jobs. Are you sure it's "such a good deal"?
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
especially lawyers. they're in the "outsourcing" group too.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
Maybe that would get more attention on the problem.
You're joking, right? We routinely see front page articles telling us that we should all own more guns. We routinely see discussions dominated by people shouting fact-free nonsense about abortion. We often see front page articles about how evil public schools are.
oddly enough the libertarian party supports gun ownership and gun rights.
---Saying gnome 3 is better than windows 8 not so much a compliment as it is damning with light praise.
I'm thinking we need to send a petition to the other signatories stating that consent has been withdrawn and so no American signatory is authorized. That is, that the treaty cannot be properly signed.
I'm in favor of TPP, and of trade agreements generally. Consider the case of NAFTA, as an example that is less broad in scope and yet similarly reviled. We can now look at it in a bit of an historical perspective.
The populist arguments against NAFTA have generally been that it "enriches corporations, at the expense of American jobs". While it eased Canadian-US trade somewhat, the most visible effect of NAFTA was that US-Mexican trade was eased to the point that hundreds of maquiladoras (manufacturing facilities) sprung up close to the US border. Among other changes, Mexico has now become a top-10 exporter of automobiles.
The maquiladoras have enhanced the lives of many millions of Mexicans. Meanwhile, it had a mixed effect on the USA, in particular pressuring hundreds of thousands of US autoworkers. Benefits to the US were much more diffuse than the lost autoworker jobs, leading many people to conclude those benefits were negligible. That's a common policy-maker's problem, where a special-interest group (here, US autoworkers) holds policy or public opinion hostage to its interests because the incremental advantage of good policy is, while larger in aggregate, thinly spread among a large constituency. It's quite recognizable in, for example, the activities of the sugar lobby on influencing congressional lawmakers.
Such lobbies, by the way, are a big reason trade agreements must be negotiated privately, keeping details hidden from the public. Otherwise, special interest groups end up completely destroying the process while negotiations are underway. Remember, sugar tariffs are very good for the sugar lobby.
While I appreciate patriotism, I personally feel that we should be trying to make life better for humanity in general, rather than greedily holding onto wealth in the USA. Taking at face value the Wharton study quoted above, the USA was able to enrich Mexicans at zero cost to itself. From that point of view, similar trade agreements are nearly a moral imperative!
Coming back to TPP, it has some leaked aspects that I think are truly terrible, such as the intellectual freedom troubles. Those criticisms I consider reasonable, and I can appreciate why that would cause an informed and intelligent person to oppose the TPP. On the other hand, a kind of knee-jerk hatred to trade agreements in general appears to drive much of the opposition, and I think of those anti-trade arguments as having no moral standing, just like the ones put forth by the sugar lobby.
On balance, then, I think the benefits to human happiness worldwide from even an agreement with flawed and overly-broad terms will outweigh the serious problems, but I can see how intellectual freedom considerations might make you feel otherwise.
Of course they do. The Libertarian Party is just where Ron Paullowers go to find out who they should vote for. Unsurprisingly the answer is always "whoever is on the GOP ticket".
More to the point though, the poster claimed that slashdot users have "liberal social values", which they simply do not.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
Guns are an exception. And Liberals don't really oppose guns, they just oppose commoners having them. They are all for guns when it suits them (police, military, elites with body guards etc.
Here's the deal, I'll give up my guns just as soon as the government gives up theirs. Not a moment before.
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
Thanks for fixing that for me!
Linux is for people who don't mind RTFM.
Oh please, enough rhetoric already.
Why don't you actually educate yourself
US has negotiated in secret with 600 private corporations. Only 5 chapters are about trade, the rest aren't. Public companies suing counties over public health measures? Gee, what could go wrong!?
This country was founded upon no taxation without representation -- meaning an _open_ government.
Governments and business who negotiate in secret are cowards. Chances are they have self-interests that don't serve the public good.
Did you swallow your kid's See 'N Say?
Canada has been completely screwed over by NAFTA. If we try to enact any kind of environmental protection, a US company sues Canada for millions. It creates a situation where if Canada wants to reduce the amount of water, lumber or other natural resources exported, or more tightly control the extraction of those resources, US companies can succesfully sue Canada for increased costs or lost profit.
NAFTA's Chapter 11 Makes Canada Most-Sued Country Under Free Trade Tribunals
It's great that poor countries can see increased growth from this, but the reality is large trade agreements often make a few people companies/people richer while reducing a country's sovreignty and the quality of life of the average joe.
This is the first thing that came to mind. That, and we are really, really fucked .
We are fucked... where "we" represent those that still want to do "business" (operate/work/get paid) as usual. This is the time when all of us need to aggressively find ways to adapt, and prosper at best (and not getting squashed at worst.)
Think of all the folks who are still crying for their jobs to come back from China, even though that has been happening for 3 decades (I mean, how many decades do people from a 1st word industrial nation need to adapt)?
Though I feel sympathy for them, I know I do not want to be in that type of crowd when the shittsunamiapocalypse comes - crying for things to go back the way they were.
The TPP is (or was) the light of an incoming train, an inevitable chicxulub that we have been seeing approaching for 3 decades. Learn new skills, be more nimble, aim to supplement your income in any way possible (legally of course), be thrifty, read some basic business books, learn a new language, etc, etc, etc.
It will not be nice, but it is reality. Better to deal with it than to cry momma feeling sorry for ourselves.
The problem is that participating in a government, and running a corporation, are both activities that are highly attractive to avil, amoral psychopaths. The fact that they are seen as engaging in cowardly practices is secondary to the fact that they are psychopaths.
Now we get to see the perfunctory "review period" in action - complete with prebuilt talking points.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
Sanders opposes and has opposed Citzens United, Corporate Financing of Election, the TPP, and the Iraq war since the beginning. He has never accepted corporate money in his entire career and isn't now that he's running for president.
AFAIK he is the only candidate with a long political record who's speeches are in line with his actions. You could vote for him or, you know, talk about the cynacism of the two party system and how political change is impossible.
I do know one thing. Cynacism is obedience to the plutocracy. Sure, it talks differently, but it functions exactly the same way.
-- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
Although a little lengthy, I found this to be an interesting assessment of the TPP:
http://economixcomix.com/home/...
Just cow's milk?
I found goat cheese in Canada was very cheap compared to Australia, during my travels in 2013. Send it my way!
You only need half a brain to realize it will soften your markets and weaken your control over it, and allow U.S corporations to control a larger and larger amount of it. You've just sold your population and your markets to U.S corporations.
There is the WTO, the World Trade Organization. The World.
We should hurry, hurry, hurry to create the EUSA. But notice the E is in FRONT of the USA. Regardless of who is nominally in charge of this Frankenstein we can be sure of at least three things: (1) Eastern Asia will always and ultimately be in front. (2) Government will become enormously bigger, and the political class and their Masters will be the real beneficiaries. (3) There will be -- as we continue to see in the EU -- horrific, unfolding consequences; and a lot of both wealth and freedom transfer. (4) Anyone who knows anything about history should know the name of this tune: "You can check out any time you'd like. But you can never leave." Look to the EU and the USA, itself, for the reality of these sorts of "voluntary" agreements. -- I think it's time we get rid of elected representatives entirely and go to direct vote on everything. Three benefits: (1) It would utterly thwart the special interests. (2) It would develop a strong, informed citizenry. (3) It would dramatically, dramatically reduce the accretion of incomprehensible laws and regulations the citizens don't understand, often don't even know exist, which are NOT worth their cost or aren't worth any cost at all. I suspect under such a system we wouldn't have 1/10th the wars, would have better infrastructure, and would generally have a much brighter future.
You must be delusional. You're competing agains thrid world labor. The only way to compete with that is to live and work in third world conditions. Enjoy being a serf.
But I won't give up my mill and lathe.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Oh I agree wholeheartedly. The Corporation did a fantastic analysis identifying them as psychopaths.
The problem is, what is everyone else doing about it? :-(
Well Slashdot, the Republicans that so many of you despise, are your last line of defense against the rod that is about to be rammed into you...
Lest some of you still harbor some iodide supposition this agreement will be desirable in any way, just look at the updates to DRM
Since Hollywood hates Republicans even more than most Slashdot readers, you'd think blocking this would be a no brainer. But many are swayed by money...
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Is this some meme I'm missing? I've seen almost the same comment in multiple threads.
"Well kids, you tried your best, and you failed. The lesson is, never try." -Homer Simpson
There's a desperate need for a public service hacking and document dump to occur.
My friends are honest and open.
My enemies are deceitful and secretive.
Who ordered that?
Treaties shoudl not be negotiated in secret. EVER. If the public doesn't have the right to know what it's the treaty, then the stuff in the treaty is obviously against the public's best interest. And Congress only has 90 days to debate or it automatically ratifies? I hope to God Rand Paul filibusters this.
The TPP isn't a free trade agreement. What it does do is give corporations pre-eminence over nation states and the right to sue in secret courts, if the states are deemed to have adversely affect the earnings of the said corporations. Similarly to how Canada was sued under NAFTA by a private company for trying to build a second bridge over the Detroit River. Canada's chief crime being the attempt at protecting the environment and the health of Canadians. So we can all stop the pretence that our governments actually represent the interests of the citizens.
Why you should care about the TPP
Actually, Nobody made that argument. You've made this up from whole cloth.
I dont hate the TPP because its supported by Obama or by Tony Abbot or Malcolm Turnbul or whoever. I hate the TPP because its been negotiated in secret and because per the leaks and info has a lot of bad stuff (on copyright, censorship/site blocking and whatever else) but it doesn't do a thing in areas where action is needed. Like getting rid of the high tariffs and protection that the US, Canada, Japan and others impose on Australian agricultural exports (beef, sugar, dairy etc). Or doing more on the issue of counterfeiting and bootlegging (to be fair on that, China isn't in the TPP and most of the worlds knockoff products come from China)
And they want to release it in a *a month or so*. So at roughly 80 or so pages (in the Intellectual Property section) can we expect a 2400 page document with 60 days to read it, so 40 pages a day after a full time job, commute and so on. So that's the expected input from the populous who will be affected by this trade agreement.
So essentially, sign this contract before you understand it. That's worldwide democracy right there. Talk about a Faustian Bargain.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
You must be delusional. You're competing agains thrid world labor. The only way to compete with that is to live and work in third world conditions. Enjoy being a serf.
Oh for fuck's sake, haven't we been competing with third world workers for 2.5 decades now? Those among us that are nimble and are always learning new things, trying to stay ahead are still living well. And when push come to shove, one would always have a choice to work in a 2nd-world country as a professional and still live a relatively comfortable life.
People like you act like if this 3rd-world competition is something new. And this makes me wonder what kind of work you do, or under what rock you have been living.
This is about making people a disposable commodity. The only new thing you should bother learning is how to live in poverty.
Cry me a fucking river. Is that new to you, that we are commodities? That shit is 3 decades old (when we shift from "Personnel Department" to "Human Resources". And living in poverty? If you are a manual worker with no skills to offer beyond pulling a lever, then yes, poverty awaits you. So, don't be a manual worker with no skills to offer.
It is that fuckign simple, and for the last three decades, there have been people who have successfully made the transition. Others, well, they are still clamoring for their jobs to come back from China (with you tagging along apparently.)
Oh for fuck's sake, haven't we been competing with third world workers for 2.5 decades now?
Yes, and losing. Our industry is falling apart and unemployment is through the roof.
Those among us that are nimble and are always learning new things, trying to stay ahead are still living well. And when push come to shove, one would always have a choice to work in a 2nd-world country as a professional and still live a relatively comfortable life.
So I guess, you have no problem with young workers being replaced with H1B, or you yourself eventually being replaced. After all, your degradation in standard of living is only slight, right? People like you always have no problem with outsourcing as long as it doesn't affect you, but you're giving the entire country away.
People like you act like if this 3rd-world competition is something new. And this makes me wonder what kind of work you do, or under what rock you have been living.
It's the tightening of thumb screws on the American worker. Not everyone can be an engineer, and not everyone can be an indispensable engineer. This is the nature of the game. No, third-world competition is not new, but it should end because it hasn't done any good.
Even if you believe in the elections, the American people didn't (nor did the Canadian people for our side of things, nor I assume most of the other countries.)
Almost all of the people in the TPP talks have been corporate lobbyists and appointed trade ministers.
The elected politicians come into play now, over the next few months, as the countries decide whether or not to ratify it. Of course at this point its an all-or-nothing choice (elected officials aren't allowed to negotiate! They might do something stupid like try to push for their citizen's rights!)
So the agreement needs to have just enough goodies thrown at each country to overcome the nasties and bam -- you have an agreement that nobody really likes but have been convinced that its somehow worth suffering.
And I'd be willing to bet the "goodies" will be written in fairly simple, direct tone (by legal document standards at least) while the "nasties" will be written in a long, wordy, obfuscated tone with the hope that the politicians will blank out in the midst of reading them and overlook them.
I just hope the text is revealed to the public (not just the voting politicians) early enough for groups like Openmedia, the EFF, industry groups, etc to be able to take a good long look at it and break it down for us laypeople. The several-years-out-of-date leaked versions of the documents were decent and well-covered but they're well.. long out of date and who knows what's changed since then.
Being an internet nerd I'm particularly interested in the IP stuff but that was apparently some of the last stuff to get finalized so who knows what it looks like by this point (other than the general assumption that it will screw everyone who isn't a significant member of the RIAA/MPAA or equivalent lobbyist groups in other nations/industries.)
Oh for fuck's sake, haven't we been competing with third world workers for 2.5 decades now?
Yes, and losing. Our industry is falling apart and unemployment is through the roof.
Then welcome to humanity. This has been going on in other countries. And people cope. And adapt. And in many cases, actually thrive.
Those among us that are nimble and are always learning new things, trying to stay ahead are still living well. And when push come to shove, one would always have a choice to work in a 2nd-world country as a professional and still live a relatively comfortable life.
So I guess, you have no problem with young workers being replaced with H1B, or you yourself eventually being replaced.
Of course I do have a problem. But I just don't bitch about it saying "we are fucked". No matter how you cut it, we are a million times better than some poor bastard drinking polluted water in Somalia. We have venues with which to cope, skills with which to adapt. We have options. Not necessarily the options we want, but they are there.
We might be in a pickle, but we are not fucked.
After all, your degradation in standard of living is only slight, right?
No slight. I'm actually trying to see if I can find a gig on the side to make ends meet. My benefits are getting smaller. Health coverage is ridiculously unpredictable, so with 2 small children, we pretty much have to assume we have 4K less of income a year, at least, just in case. And so on and so on.
But we are not fucked. We can always adapt somehow. This is what happens to the likes of you who have never truly seen poverty. Oh, degradation of living, we are fucked. Give me a break.
People like you always have no problem with outsourcing as long as it doesn't affect you, but you're giving the entire country away.
I work in software. It affects me. For 20 years of professional life, 2/3 of it I've had to deal with temp jobs and contracting gigs without benefits because outsourcing and the shift of perm hiring to contracting. It affects me. But I don't bitch about it. I adapt.
People like you act like if this 3rd-world competition is something new. And this makes me wonder what kind of work you do, or under what rock you have been living.
It's the tightening of thumb screws on the American worker. Not everyone can be an engineer, and not everyone can be an indispensable engineer. This is the nature of the game. No, third-world competition is not new, but it should end because it hasn't done any good.
Not everyone can be an engineer, true, but not everyone can expect to get a job back in a conveyor line just pushing a lever to mold a piece of plastic either. People adapt. I've seen it. Shit, my first job 25 years ago was in a factory in LA, just the exact type of factory that went to China. I worked my way flipping burgers and driving forklifts. It took me 8 years to get my BS in CS, all the while learning a new language and being 110lbs because I barely had enough to eat three meals 2-3 days a week.
What's the excuse for everyone else? I know people who lost their factory jobs, and adapted. Bought a lawnmower and started clipping people's grass, and from there, little by little, built up a landscaping company.
I've known a person from a 3rd world country that came as a refugee, she could barely read and write, and needed a calculator for anything above addition. And yet, she worked her ass off, 70 hours a week doing deliveries for florists till the point she had her own business.
What's the fucking excuse to those people who 30 years later are still carrying signs blaming the Chinese and illegals? We are not fucked unless we want to.
The TPP covers enough of the current Global Economy (some of South America, Some of Asia, North America) so that it serves as a blueprint for future Trade Treaties between the current signatories and future signatories. It's important to get the deal crafted in such a way that anyone who wants to join in the future has to basically take on the same compromises and advantages. And make no mistake; other nations will want to join in the future.
If you don't get this deal done, you run the risk that future trade deals compromise your position further than maybe your country feels is reasonable. One thing that is almost certain is that the current signatories are looking at a weakening economic position in the future; by signing and crafting now, they negotiate from a position of strength that probably will not exist to the same extent in the future.
It might not be ideal for all the current signatories, but at least now we know where the advantages and disadvantages will lie, and current treaty nations can adjust accordingly so that they are in a position to take advantage in the future, with rules the future signatories will have to agree to.
Well, I never liked clean air, safe (relative to the job - mining will always be more dangerous than an office job, but the danger can still be reduced to an extent) work conditions/environments, child labor laws, or the ability to have more free time than the average gilded age worker, anyway.
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."