Huge Survey Shows Correlation Between Autistic Traits and STEM Jobs (cam.ac.uk)

Bruce66423 writes: A survey of more than 450,000 people in the UK has shown there is a significant correlation between a higher score on the Autism Quotient and being a scientist or engineer. AQ scores are also higher for men than for women. "On average, the male AQ score was 21.6, compared to a female score of 19.0. People work in a STEM-related job had an average AQ score of 21.9 compared to a score of 18.9 for individuals working in non-STEM jobs. This suggests autistic traits are linked to both sex and to having a ‘systems-thinking’ mind." A professor involved with the work said, "These may shed light on why we find males in the population on average have slightly more autistic traits than females do, and why fathers and grandfathers of children with autism are over-represented in STEM fields."

Comments

Male privilege

[Anonymous Coward]

Men shape the world so that they can earn more money. I demand equal access to autism for women!

Re:Male privilege

[Anonymous Coward]

There are just as many aspie women as men. The questionnaires are biased as to social interaction, which western women spend more time and effort on.

But on a different note... shouldn't outsourcing and work visas now be banned based on ADA non-compliance or something? Because they put aspies out of work by a disproportionate amount?

Re:Male privilege

[lisaparratt]

Where autistic men tend to latch onto trains, or other similar obsessions, many of the autistic women I've known have, at some point in their lives, become fixated on social interactions. The result is, with a lot of effort, they can be quite socially functional, albeit a little bit peculiar. This probably also skews the results of the test.

Re:Male privilege

[Anonymous Coward]

...after all, programming humans via socializing is way more fun than programming computers.

Re:Male privilege

[Applehu Akbar]

"There are just as many aspie women as men."

So why do aspie men have so much trouble finding them?

Re:Male privilege

[Anonymous Coward]

The CDC says that you are absolutely wrong. Autism is 5x more common in boys (interestingly, this is rather close to the male/female STEM ratio).

http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/data.html

Re:Male privilege

[StikyPad]

What you describe is an established "symptom" of ASD in women, but perhaps ASD is not an really appropriate classification for those symptoms. I know this is a controversial statement, but it's possible that men and women have different disorders. I mean, if we have to broaden the symptoms of one disorder to include symptoms which happen to be the antithesis of the "same" disorder, then perhaps we're actually looking at a something unique, and we should categorize it as such rather than trying to shoehorn it into an existing classification.

Re:Male privilege

[Anonymous Coward]

Considering autism is mostly defined by difficulty with social interactions, if someone is quite functional socially, then that person is, by definition, not in the autism spectrum.

Re: Male privilege

[Anonymous Coward]

All of this is wrong. Autism is caused by decrease of and outlawing of corporal punishment at baby and child ages. They have to study how the rise of autism correlates to decline of slapping the behinds of unruly children. Pavlov does work, even in this case

Re:Male privilege

[lisaparratt]

Thankfully, medical practitioners can take a slightly more nuanced view of things, and don't take things at face value. Even to my untrained eye, it doesn't take long to notice that it's more akin to an simulation of social behaviour, than a fluent exchange - as such, it has all the hallmarks of the autistic behaviour.

Re: Male privilege

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope. You don't get how this works. Through years of observation, compensation and learned responses we can become socially functional, but we are not nor ever will be socially intuitive, which is the real issue with ASD. It's like not having a graphics card - sure you can still play games, but you do it at .001% of the efficiency of everyone else because you had to cobble together some shitty emulation of the function they have built-in. We get better over time (if we try) at appearing normal, but the feelings of isolation never stop. If anything they get worse because the more normal people think you are, the more shocking it is to them and stressful it is for you when eventually the facade fails or you are tired and the weird comes out.

Re:Male privilege

[Archtech]

...after all, programming humans via socializing is way more fun than programming computers.

Although much, much harder.

Re:Male privilege

[Anonymous Coward]

Why the fuck would I want an Aspie woman?

We're not lesser humans looking for compatible breeding stock retard.

Re: Male privilege

[Anonymous Coward]

I got chills reading that. That's one of the most accurate descriptions I think I've ever read.

Re:Male privilege

[Anonymous Coward]

Not really, no. Take hacking for example: "Social engineering" often leaves me speechless. I can not believe what people will fall for. Yet most nerds do not even attempt the easy way in. Instead of simply "asking" the right person for the password, nerds will analyze disassembled binaries, dig for protocol flaws and do other arcane stuff which requires years of experience and advanced knowledge of complicated technical aspects that would make a normal person's eyes glaze over after 30 seconds.

Re: Male privilege

[Grishnakh]

No shit, that sounds just like me.

Makes me wonder how long it's worth continuing to live, if it's just going to get worse from here.

Re:Male privilege

[Aaden42]

TFA dealt with the UK where circumcision is unusual. The CDC numbers are from the US where male infant circumcision is routine. There are other studies showing a pretty strong link between the pain & trauma of infant circumcision and a much higher rate of ASD. It's about 5x versus babies who remained intact.

CDC says males are about 5x more likely than females to land on the spectrum. You don't say...

Correlation != causation, but it should make you wonder a bit.

Re:Male privilege

[avandesande]

..and there are some that don't. It runs in our family and I had a cousin that was un-diagnosed, she grew up on a farm which probably limited her opportunities to socialize.
She was quite the loner and ended up committing suicide.

Re:Male privilege

[houghi]

I was thinking along the lines of "STEM jobs give you autism.", but what you said works as well.

Re:Male privilege

[Crowd Computing]

So does this mean all the allegedly misogynistic programmers and gamers are actually misanthropes, treating everybody equally bad?

Re: Male privilege

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah if there is one thing i have going for me it is that i have spent decades analyzing every impulse in my brain, and it may not work 'right', but i know exactly how it works. My wife and i went to an autism specialist counseler because she wanted help understanding said brain, and the lady just sat there in slackjawed amazement the whole time that i was the most 'self aware' case of autistic whatever she had ever seen, like i was some kind of rosetta stone to the others who couldn't commhncate as well. Flattering i suppose, didn't help my wife for shit.

Re: Male privilege

[Anonymous Coward]

PROTIP: It describes fucking everybody. Rare is the person who always just knows what to do in nearly every social situation. Fucking everyone feels weird and different from everyone else.

Re: Male privilege

[Anonymous Coward]

I hear you there

Re:Male privilege

[Anonymous Coward]

The autism-trauma connection is very interesting (and I am opposed to cutting on babies without their consent without regard to any potential link with autism), but autism rates have gone up as circumcision rates have gone down.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/circumcision_2013/circumcision_2013.htm

Most importantly, if circumcision were the primary cause, then we would expect a male/female ratio far greater than 5:1 as virtually zero females are circumcised in the United States.

Re:Male privilege

[Crowd Computing]

"There are just as many aspie women as men."

So why do aspie men have so much trouble finding them?

I have a theory. These men actually do run into their opposite number, but because they both have lower than average empathy, their meeting turns into a tragedy of errors. Maybe she mistakes his attempt to make conversation as sexual harassment, or maybe he mistakes his sexual harassment as still normal male dating behavior.

Re:Male privilege

[Applehu Akbar]

As we see here, it could be just an attitude problem. Enjoy your future as a (gamer | cat lady).

All humans subconsciously look for "compatible breeding stock" in selecting a mate. We want to get our DNA out into the great Darwinian marketplace, and to do so we employ various strategies.

Re:Male privilege

[lister king of smeg]

Why the fuck would I want an Aspie woman?

We're not lesser humans looking for compatible breeding stock retard.

Because shared experience and understanding can make living with someone easier due to not needing to keep up the normal act around each other?

Re: Male privilege

[Anonymous Coward]

If ya got it, flaunt it. We aspire to do amazing shit. If you spent years learning about security, encryption, exploits, etc.., wouldn't you want to test those skills?

Re: Male privilege

[orledrat]

PROTIP: It describes fucking everybody. Rare is the person who always just knows what to do in nearly every social situation. Fucking everyone feels weird and different from everyone else.

In studies that measure such social efficiency it has been noticed repeatedly that those with ASD do indeed function at statistically significant less than native speed. That's not saying that native speed social functioning isn't slow or that it doesn't feel weird for anyone else -- just that it's even more slow and even more weird in persons with ASD.

Re:Male privilege

[Anonymous Coward]

This is probably the most retarded thing I've ever read...

Re:Male privilege

[tnk1]

I would think that would be obvious. Odd that it is not.

Re:Male privilege

[Coren22]

I would be quite happy with a woman more like me though.

Maybe we need ASD Friend Finder.

BTW, Aspergers no longer exists as a separate diagnosis, it is a part of Autism Spectrum Disorder now.

Re: Male privilege

[Coren22]

Bull shit, don't lie, it only hurts people who might not understand how wrong this is. Autism is a brain structure issue, it is caused by a reduction in the number of connections between left and right hemispheres. No amount of beatings will correct this issue.

Re:Male privilege

[Coren22]

Both of my children have ASDs, and both of them are uncut. I also fall on the Spectrum, it used to be called Aspergers, as well as all of us have ADHD. I highly doubt there is much of a correlation between circumcision and the structural issues in the brain which lead to Autism Spectrum Disorders.
 

Re:Male privilege

[Coren22]

No, it means that all the SJWs bashing on people as being misogynistic are actually making fun of people with mental disabilities.

Re: Male privilege

[sexconker]

Oh look, a fucking autist who thinks he's a SPECIAL fucking autist.
What a marvel. Never seen that before, nosiree.

Re: Male privilege

[Anonymous Coward]

PROTIP: Refusing to admit that somebody else is having a unique experience, insisting on claiming membership in it in order to co-opt and marginalize it, makes you an ignorant asshole.

Apparently you just can't bear the thought that somebody is having an experience upon which you have no basis for comment. It's like saying you understand the black experience in America. You don't. You have a factual understanding of many the circumstances around it, you may even have intelligent input on how some of its issues may be addressed, but you don't understand it and you have no fucking business in a conversation about what it's like. You never will. And insisting that you do in order to be able to pass commentary is offensive and just plain stupid.

Have you ever (not sometimes, ever) not felt like your interactions with others were as if you were stuck behind a pane of cloudy glass?

Have ever, for one second in your life, felt empathy for another person rather than a calculated response that just logically tells you that you should, followed by deep guilt and shame that you do not actually feel it?

Are you able to carry on conversations without being distracted by trying to categorize the ceiling tiles by orientation and hole pattern?

Yes? Then you have no idea what we are talking about. Fuck off.

Re:Male privilege

[Coren22]

Speaking of Autism... I have summoned APK to fight for hosts files against all criticism!

Re: Male privilege

[Aaden42]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men...

That's the study. I misquoted. 2x increase in ASD for infant circ.

Re:Male privilege

[Anonymous Coward]

Women's manipulation of men oftentimes relies on hardness ...

Re: Male privilege

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey now, look at the broader picture (which I admit I did not represent well):

Being deficient in some areas doesn't need to mean across the board misery. I have a very fulfilling place in the social structure, it's just not the one everybody else has. My friends greatly value my opinions and thoughts because they know that I am not capable of guile or machination even if I wanted to. They value my advice because it is always from a place of reason and not emotionally driven irrationality. They forgive my oddities, if not value them.

Not to mention all the non-social things that I get joy from. I suspect these are a bit different for everyone, but one recommendation: Godel Escher Bach is a beautiful love poem to the autistic brain. Read it and realize that you are not alone, but that you are naturally aligned to something so huge and incredible that you could spend 100 lifetimes exploring it.

I won't lie, I have frequently thought about (not considered, mind you, just pondered the notion) of ending it. When you look at your life through the lens of everybody else, and what fun they are having, yeah that's pretty bleak. You need to recognize that you have your own lenses that others do not share and that there is value there, it's just kind of a bitch that you can rarely find people with which to share these experiences..

Re: Male privilege

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh look, a person who feels the need shit on anybody who dares to describe themselves as unique in some way or talk about the singular defining experience of their life. For no reason at all. While adding nothing whatsoever on the topic at hand. Never seen that on the internets before, nosiree.

I suppose you don't think that you excel at something, anything? And when that thing finally (I'm guessing it will be a long wait) comes up as a topic of discussion you will sit silent I suppose because it is ever so uncouth to be aware of or take any pride in one's special abilities? I look forward to your response to the troll turd that is laid on you in that moment.

Re:Male privilege

[david_thornley]

Except that some of us aren't good at figuring out strategies. I assure you that the fact that I've only had sex with the women I married is at least partly due to being unable to figure out how to get a woman to be sexually interested in me.

Re: Male privilege

[erapert]

Sure sure. You're a very special snowflake. The most special snowflake that slackjawed "specialist counceler" (whatever that is) has ever seen. .

Re:Male privilege

[Cederic]

Yes. This is one reason programmers and gamers resent the suggestion that they're misogynistic: They treat everybody the same.

Just because it's not the way women want to be treated doesn't make it misogynistic.

I'm diagnosed with Aspergers, and I don't generally want to upset people. I've managed it with complete accidental ease. I mix with people that don't worry about the oddities and give me credit for my skills and abilities, instead of crying about those I lack.

Others are less accepting. They can stay the fuck out of my profession.

Re:Male privilege

[genner]

...after all, programming humans via socializing is way more fun than programming computers.

Nah....too many bugs and no one to report them to,

Re:Male privilege

[TemporalBeing]

"There are just as many aspie women as men."

So why do aspie men have so much trouble finding them?

I have a theory. These men actually do run into their opposite number, but because they both have lower than average empathy, their meeting turns into a tragedy of errors. Maybe she mistakes his attempt to make conversation as sexual harassment, or maybe he mistakes his sexual harassment as still normal male dating behavior.

Like with Sheldon on the Big Bang Theory...

Re:Male privilege

[Anonymous Coward]

Unlikely. The researcher in the article (Simon Baron-Cohen) also studied the Netherlands, which has a ASD hotspot similar to Silicon Valley (around Eindhoven city). Same conclusion (boys severely overrepresented) even though circumcision is as rare in the Netherlands as it's in the UK.

Re:Male privilege

[Anonymous Coward]

We're not lesser humans ...

Yes, yes you are. "Oh look mommy, it thinks it's a people."

          Thank you for not breeding. We don't need more of you freaks pretending there's something wrong with you as an excuse for being a shithead. There's nothing special about you. You're just an asshole. Man up and admit it. The only thing wrong with you is your unwillingness to admit that you're just a shithead. "Oh, I have an illness that means I'm unable to notice you're offended by my stench and behavior!" No, you're a fucking dirty asshole that lacks both the mental fortitude and a willingness to accept blame for your behavior.

                    -- An Asshole I don't need a diagnosis, I know I'm offending you and I don't give a shit because you're meaningless and pathetic.

Re: Male privilege

[KGIII]

It does make me wonder if there's some merit to the idea - not that it would be a cure but that it could curb certain behaviors. Fortunately, for the world, I'm not actually allowed to experiment on humans and I'm not actually a psychiatrist. Also, I'm pretty sure that beating a child to prohibit them from exhibiting signs of a mental disorder is frowned upon. I didn't need to spank my children. I have a "Daddy Voice." They've made it to their 20s. So far, so good.

Re:Male privilege

[Anonymous Coward]

yea but you may be on to something

If brains are plastic, they may change to fit better for the task they are used for
In other words young Junior without training may became after a few years of experience Mr senior autistic engineer purely due to environmental reasons
which begs the question could we improve or cure autism with training and environmental changes?

Re: Male privilege

[Anonymous Coward]

Part of what you're describing I'd suggest isn't autism, it's just being introverted: It's not that I can't be what you call "socially normal," it's that I find doing so constantly a drain and a burden rather than somehow stimulating.

Or, it may simply be that running an emulation fast & accurately enough to pretend it's native is precisely why it's a burden rather than a bonus. Which is why I want you to leave me alone so I can not have to run that emulation.

Re:Male privilege

[Anonymous Coward]

Trolls trolling trolls. Not offended. I ain't even mad.

Re:Male privilege

[Anonymous Coward]

It's only an attitude problem when you're subordinate. Not suffering fools is a luxury afforded to people who are too effective at what they do to have their time wasted.

Re:Male privilege

[Anonymous Coward]

Does mommy know you've been watching Archer? That's a big-boy show for grown ups. Eat your carrots and go back to studying your arithmetic tables like a good little boy.

Re: Male privilege

[Anonymous Coward]

No, totally different. You are correct in the drain - I experience that. The difference is that I very much want to be around people. I find it immensely stimulating when I can do so and carry it off. I also find it devastating when I overstep by abilities and fuck it up, which happens a lot when I am on a roll, get amped up and push my luck in untested areas.

There is a key difference that is at the root of ASD that I don't think is shared with introvert behavior but produces a few similar effects: a complete and utter lack of empathy. I have none. I never have, and I am halfway through my life so I suspect I never will. It doesn't mean I don't care about people - I do. It means that I have never in my life felt another person's distress, pain, anxiety, etc. and thus have no intuitive path through which I can behave appropriately when a person feels x or y.

Put shortly, I am a sociopath. I have decided that I like being around people and to make the effort to make that work so I am a well-meaning sociopath, but a sociopath nonetheless. I respond to people's emotions by constantly flipping through a stack of mental flashcards that took me my whole life to build. Like a shitty first tier tech support person reading off their canned response book rather than the 3rd tier engineer who actually understands the system and can think dynamically within it. When I don't have a flashcard, well things get weird. And people's reactions are frequently similar to yours when you report that your IP routing is all messed up the Comcast guy from Bangalore asks you if the modem is plugged in.

See the difference?

Re:Male privilege

[nblender]

I didn't have much trouble finding my aspie wife and as I've learned over the years, I'm every bit as aspie as she is...

Problem is, she drives me fucking crazy... What I wouldn't give sometimes to have a stupidly normal wife..

Re:Male privilege

[Dashiva Dan]

Yeah true, but not impossible.....

Derren Brown

Re:Male privilege

[Dashiva Dan]

This is my belief also. put 2 people who struggle with social interaction together and you won't get aq great result, However when one is socially comfortable and accepting of the other aspie, things can work out.
Not to say that aspies can't form relationships between themselves, but the society we live in generates social situations that are more conducive to... the majority (not so strange).

Re:Male privilege

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that "will you marry me?" is not the best pick-up line. :)

Re: Male privilege

[donscarletti]

Because Asburgers Syndrome makes finding anyone, aspie or not, difficult? Most aspies do not have the largest and most diverse of social networks.

But really, studies show when two aspies reproduce, you get a ridiculous chance of full blown autism, probably some co-recessive type thing. This I can attest to anecdotally from my family. Better find a woman who doesn't quite understand you but doesn't have that gene, your offspring will have at most Asburgers Syndrome.

Re: Male privilege

[Anonymous Coward]

That's because THAT'S HOW THEY FUCKING DEFINED IT. It's so silly. Aspergers syndrome is 99% bullshit. Just a term they slap on someone who is socially inept, with a side of cachet for many nerds.

I think I will invent a term for people who are assholes then they can claim "it's a disorder!!".

Re: Male privilege

[Anonymous Coward]

And it's not your fault right? "It's a disorder!" Nope nothing you could do about it!

So fucking stupid.

Re:Male privilege

[jewens]

Since no one has covered it yet here is your obligatory XKCD refernce http://xkcd.com/378/

Re:Male privilege

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, you sure put him in his place with your suave charm and sensitivity.

Re: Male privilege

[tehcyder]

Sorry, but being socially awkward does not mean you're autistic.

Genuinely autistic people do not function socially at all.

Faking social behaviour is something that everyone does to some extent or other, it's not limited to self-diagnosed Aspies.

The whole "autistic spectrum" thing is about as meaningful as a "schizophrenia spectrum". Everyone has some element of autistic or schizophrenic behaviour is you look long and hard enough.

I was going to post AC as this will be down-modded to something approaching minus infinity, but sod it.

Re: Male privilege

[r_a_trip]

It doesn't necesarrily get worse, but you need to be open and honest to your closest people. Tell them that you had to learn social interaction and that it doesn't come naturally.

It's what I did and people accept me with the occasional weird now, because they know I make a real effort to fit in.

Occasional contacts with people I don't see regularly tend to go well, as they don't see me often enough to know that I'm off sometimes.

It's still embarrassing to miss a social cue every once in a while though, because that makes you stick out like a sore thumb.

Feelings of isolation will never go away completely, but I combat that rationally. If people ask my boyfriend how I'm doing, that means they care about me. If they care about me, I add something of value to their lives. That makes me part of their group.

Re: Male privilege

[beastofburdon]

I eventually found a way around this. I just started not giving a fuck what others thought about me. It may or may not work for others, but I found that the less I cared about the opinions of others the happier I am, and the more real friends I had.

Re: Male privilege

[Anonymous Coward]

How exactly does one force one's self to have an emotional response? Please, enlighten us.

Re: Male privilege

[Anonymous Coward]

We call it "Voight-Kampf" for short.

Re: Male privilege

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah with the close people it is much easier, more of an open dialog. A lot of what I have learned about how this works came from the compare/contrast that we do - they are often as interested to know how my gears work as I am theirs, and it has made it very clear to me where the delineations between our thought processes lie.

Gotta be real careful who you admit to that group though, as you frequently encounter the same inexplicable vitriol that is smeared all over this page from people who for some reason just can't accept the fact that they do not comprehend your experience, and therefore it must be invalid.

Re: Male privilege

[Anonymous Coward]

Ha ha, nice. I need that T shirt - "I am Leon".

Re: Male privilege

[Anonymous Coward]

Some people are discussing an experience they are having. You have never had this experience so it must be bullshit. Your logic is flawless.

And where exactly have I said in any way that this disorder constitutes an excuse for any of my behavior? Disorders are things to be coped with, not used as scapegoats. Alchoholism is a disorder but I'm still gonna be pretty pissed when you drunk drive your way into my house.

Re: Male privilege

[GodelEscherBlecch]

Um, I think it means a counselor that specializes in autism. It doesn't seem terribly difficult to parse. Although, from your inability to tell the difference between one who is slackjawed in amazement at a spectacle and one who is slackjawed as a general characteristic, it would seem you have some difficulty unboxing language into thought. Perhaps if English had the equivalent of ser / estar things might be easier for folks with your particular learning disability.

Re: Male privilege

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, but being socially awkward does not mean you're autistic.

Right. And being red doesn't make you a stop sign. I'm not sure who you are talking to, because nobody has claimed either.

Genuinely autistic people do not function socially at all.

Sorry, you don't get to redefine the semantics to your personal liking. Everything has gradients. I'm sure that in reality you are actually ever so slightly to the left of end of the 'complete fuckwit' spectrum.

The whole "autistic spectrum" thing is about as meaningful as a "schizophrenia spectrum". Everyone has some element of autistic or schizophrenic behaviour is you look long and hard enough.

Well I'm glad you put that to bed, then. Since there is no spectrum, you can provide us with the precise description of autism since there is exactly one kind. This will make it ever so much easier to diagnose. In your rush to do away with all things graduated, you also managed to conflate the 'awkardness spectrum' (everybody is on it somewhere) with the 'autism spectrum' (a very different thing with a high correlation to awkwardness). But, I suspect you don't really care since the root of your problem seems to be that you are all wah wah that a group of people not including you is receiving some attention. Sometimes shit doesn't have anything to do with you, It's Chinatown, man. Let it go.

Re:Male privilege

[Anonymous Coward]

As someone who is also diagnosed with Asperger's, you hit the nail on the head.

Re: Male privilege

[niftymitch]

I eventually found a way around this. I just started not giving a fuck what others thought about me. It may or may not work for others, but I found that the less I cared about the opinions of others the happier I am, and the more real friends I had.

I might comment that not giving a hoot is a modestly effective strategy.
In the extreme it does risk dehumanization.

A valuable coping strategy is a thick skin. That is in some ways quite different than not giving a flipp.

One can go down the rat hole of discourse, cultural bias and small tall but I really want
to discuss the weather.

Re: Male privilege

[Reziac]

So, you're saying your brain runs linux? :)

Re: Male privilege

[jfeldredge]

There are various levels of Aspergers Syndrome. I am self-classified as having Aspergers. My social-interaction skills and empathy are more effective in some circumstances than in others. It isn't an all-or-nothing situation.

dead

[Anonymous Coward]

this is funny in all the right ways

Autie/Aspie is not a disease

[Anonymous Coward]

Why does the mainstream society try so hard to cure human evolution?

Re:Autie/Aspie is not a disease

[Anonymous Coward]

... Why does the mainstream society try so hard to cure human evolution? ...

The so-called 'mainstream' in human society consists of certified idiots and borderline idiots

Anything that idiots can't cope with their first reaction is to snuff it out - that is exactly what they are doing with the Austie and the Aspie communities

Re:Autie/Aspie is not a disease

[Barsteward]

sounds like you need to take your meds more often

Re:Autie/Aspie is not a disease

[Maritz]

Careful now, talking to yourself is one of the first signs of consciousness.

Re:Autie/Aspie is not a disease

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, who are you? what are you doing in my head?

Re:Autie/Aspie is not a disease

[Anonymous Coward]

The current hype around STEM jobs hides the fact that knowing people is still a much better way of being successful than knowing things. STEM jobs are like garbage pickup: It's very important that somebody does it, but you don't want your kids to end up doing the hard work for little money. Yes, I know that STEM jobs are considered well-paying, but with the same work ethic and intellectual ability that they require, one could easily make more money in other fields. An innate talent for science and technology, which appears to be correlated with mild autism spectrum disorders and thus a much lower chance of getting along with people, is as much an evolutionary advantage as being on the other end of the bell curve: The world works best for the people in the middle, not for the outliers.

Re:Autie/Aspie is not a disease

[Sique]

Being cast out and denied success in the society is human evolution at work. It's the 'selection' phase.

Re:Autie/Aspie is not a disease

[ILongForDarkness]

It depends how it manifests. My friends 13 yr old isn't great at school and his autism makes him very emotional and socially awkward. He doesn't really like music though, haven't heard him play for a few years so I suppose he could be getting good. But say that is the way he "succeeds" with his autism? It doesn't stop the socially awkward and emotional bits. He'd probably end up being a musical "genius" in the Kobain sense not in the Handel sense, ie not able to cope with the things that cope with it and dying because of it. He's as bad off as if he was born with no "special talent" for anything and instead had an IQ of say 80..

Re:Autie/Aspie is not a disease

[ILongForDarkness]

Could be the opposite bias too. "Normals" that didn't found a .com have an excuse and something to be thankful for: "Well I'm not autistic that is why, and at least I don't have a disease." I agree with you though most techies are "well adjusted" they might have a tendency towards "nerdy interests" but is that any worse than a musician that goes to India to learn to play "weird" instruments, or a lawyer that reads cases in a different subspeciality because they are interested in the law? People have things they are passionate about, whippedy shit. Not everyone is stuck doing a job they aren't interested in.

Re:Autie/Aspie is not a disease

[jellomizer]

They are negititve trade offs too. A big symptom of autism is the inability to adapt to change. This adaptability to change is one of our key evolutionary advantages. In a world where the effects of global warming is happening we really can't afford a society that is unable to change.
Sure they may be good at STEM jobs now, but what happens when they get older and the methods and technology have been altered.
A baby boomer with autism may get a job as a mainframe system administrator. He may still have a job today, but increasingly threatened as such systems are being retired. Combining autism with older age will make it nearly impossible for him to transisition to deal with a distributed server farm. Even though they may not be that different to people with a lower autism spectrum, to him it would be like changing you career from a system administrator to a marketing manager.

They are a lot of talented techs without autism or score very low where they they can perform just as well without the baggage.

Now this doesn't mean we should outcast these people, but to say they are our next evolutionary step seems like it would lead us to a dead end like the Neanderthal. (Where they are some interesting hypothesis that the Neaderthal had many autistic like tendencies. Large brains and very focused, however not so good at adapting to change)

Re:Autie/Aspie is not a disease

[Anonymous Coward]

"makes him very emotional and socially awkward."

Sounds more like borderline personality disorder. His parents fucked up or normal?

Re:Autie/Aspie is not a disease

[Anonymous Coward]

Writing like that, are you sure he's the 'tard?

Re: Autie/Aspie is not a disease

[Anonymous Coward]

Having an interest perceived as "nerdy" (role-playing games, comic books, SF/Fantasy and so on) is not the same as obsessing over them. The difference is the same as being interested in soccer and being a hooligan. Nobody likes a hooligan and nobody likes a geek.

Re:Autie/Aspie is not a disease

[Anonymous Coward]

My friends 13 yr old isn't great at school and his autism makes him very emotional and socially awkward. He doesn't really like music though, haven't heard him play for a few years so I suppose he could be getting good. But say that is the way he "succeeds" with his autism? It doesn't stop the socially awkward and emotional bits.

Being ADD/ASD with hypersensitivity I am in a position to tell you how wrong you are.

First of all there is nothing wrong with being very emotional. Who sets the level of acceptability for emotional sensitivity? It's an advantage in some situations and a disadvantage in others, if you are hypersensitive you just have to learn to play to your strengths like anyone else. The main problem for a kid is that if other kids figure out they can upset you they will stop at nothing to do so. That's an asshole problem, not an ASD problem. Drugging the asshole neurotypicals into dull submission would solve the problem nicely, preferably with something that makes them drool or do something embarrassing that they will cop a lot of shit for from the other kids.

As for social awkwardness, I was socially awkward most of my life and still have social anxiety. That tends to happen when you have years of compulsory association with people that are assholes to you and it won't be going away anytime soon, but you can learn social skills and also learn to 'ride the wave' with anxiety in ways that are very successful in social situations, in much the same way that a performer might harness their anxiety to add to their stage presence. I have friends, I have lovers, I'm popular at my local drinking spot and I know how to meet new people. Your friends son might learn to do really well socially if he meets some people a bit more understanding and helpful than you.

He'd probably end up being a musical "genius" in the Kobain sense not in the Handel sense, ie not able to cope with the things that cope with it and dying because of it. He's as bad off as if he was born with no "special talent" for anything and instead had an IQ of say 80..

Fuck you for setting such negative expectations for your friends son. In reality I doubt you are a true friend to him and with your attitude you are certainly an enemy of his son's, even if you don't mean to be or see yourself that way. Fix your attitude or stay out of his life.

Re:Autie/Aspie is not a disease

[NostalgiaForInfinity]

You are UNMUTUAL.

Re:Autie/Aspie is not a disease

[Anonymous Coward]

dead end like the Neanderthal

Except the average modern non-African human has a few percent of their genome sourced from Neanderthal ancestry. So they were a "dead end" in about the same way as your great great grandmother was - not walking the earth any more, certainly, but an amount of her genes do persist in the population.

(Where they are some interesting hypothesis that the Neaderthal had many autistic like tendencies. Large brains and very focused, however not so good at adapting to change)

Which makes me wonder if autism is significantly less prevalent among African populations...

Re:Autie/Aspie is not a disease

[RabidReindeer]

A baby boomer with autism may get a job as a mainframe system administrator. He may still have a job today, but increasingly threatened as such systems are being retired.

I think you draw your lines too narrowly. I think it likely that an autistic mainframe operator would transition fairly naturally from big iron to distributed servers. What is more likely to be the case is that an autistic person used to running systems would have a hard time being transferred to a help desk.

Re:Autie/Aspie is not a disease

[RabidReindeer]

The current hype around STEM jobs hides the fact that knowing people is still a much better way of being successful than knowing things. STEM jobs are like garbage pickup: It's very important that somebody does it, but you don't want your kids to end up doing the hard work for little money. Yes, I know that STEM jobs are considered well-paying, but with the same work ethic and intellectual ability that they require, one could easily make more money in other fields. An innate talent for science and technology, which appears to be correlated with mild autism spectrum disorders and thus a much lower chance of getting along with people, is as much an evolutionary advantage as being on the other end of the bell curve: The world works best for the people in the middle, not for the outliers.

One of the real handicaps of being socially awkward is that employers can take advantage of you. Even if you are in a highly-skilled profession.

Doctors and lawyers are generally "people persons". It's practically a job requirement. They form professional organizations which can lobby governments and otherwise make the world more pleasant to them.

Techies are generally not people persons, even when they aren't actually autistic. They don't form protective organizations. In fact, they're often anti-union (and face it, just because the AMA doesn't call itself a union doesn't mean that it doesn't carry many union traits) and they often subscribe to a Libertarian/Randian ideal that they can sit all high and isolated and self-sufficient. Ironic, since the Randian Bible (Atlas Shrugged) is premised on the idea that the oligarchs (falsely equated to the majority of creative people) form what is for all practical purposes a union and go on strike (the "Shrug"). Oligarchs pretty much have to be people persons too, of course.

In short, if you have few social skills, you're screwed.

Re:Autie/Aspie is not a disease

[jedidiah]

...the shrill cry of the mundane.

"How dare you make me feel inferior!"

Re: Autie/Aspie is not a disease

[Anonymous Coward]

nobody likes a geek.

citation needed

Re:Autie/Aspie is not a disease

[StikyPad]

I don't know about lawyers, but doctors and nurses are taught how to manage people. Many of them are in the industry for the problem-solving aspects of the job, and the interaction with people is a side benefit at best, or else just the cost of doing business and getting access to those problems.

Re:Autie/Aspie is not a disease

[dpidcoe]

but with the same work ethic and intellectual ability that they require, one could easily make more money in other fields.

Definitely. But then given the choice between a job that's mentally unstimulating but socially demanding vs a job that's mentally stimulating where my co-workers and I are expected to be a bit odd, I'd go with the latter every time, even given significant financial motivation to do otherwise.

Re:Autie/Aspie is not a disease

[dpidcoe]

They don't form protective organizations. In fact, they're often anti-union

Wait what? The reason they're anti-union (in california anyway, assuming you can even find anti-union folks here) is because the unions go all out to protect even the bad teachers, to the point of preventing the school districts from firing teachers for some truly outrageous and inappropriate behavior. They'll sometimes even shame the good teachers for making the mediocre ones look bad by contrast. Nothing to do with this Randian stuff you seemingly pulled out of nowhere.

Re:Autie/Aspie is not a disease

[RabidReindeer]

Protecting bad/incompetent workers is something that Bar associations and Medical Associations have also often been accused of. But then again, a Union by any other name...

Think about it. Would a sane person really want to give up belonging to an association that protects good workers just because it also protects bad workers? Especially if it's your job that's protected, no matter how good or bad you are perceived to be?

The reason that people around my part of the (right-to-work) world hate unions is mostly because they've been told over and over that "Unions is Communism" and Communism is Liberalism and being a Liberal around in this part of the USA is practically a hanging offense.

Re:Autie/Aspie is not a disease

[Anonymous Coward]

Inferior to what exactly? Your only claim to fame is being able to hold middle class level jobs. There are a lot of ways to make more money than a programmer. 120k is nothing to brag about really. You don't even crack the 1% until you hit about 380k, which most programmers never do.

Re:Autie/Aspie is not a disease

[dpidcoe]

Think about it. Would a sane person really want to give up belonging to an association that protects good workers just because it also protects bad workers? Especially if it's your job that's protected, no matter how good or bad you are perceived to be?

Sure, if they think about it for more than 2 seconds and aren't a selfish asshole. In the case of having bad co-workers, that makes the job demoralizing and stressful. And if you're the bad co-worker, you're a horrible human being for inflicting yourself like an impossible to remove parasite on the people who actually get things done.

Sure there are cases when a union has correctly protected a good teacher, but (in my state at least) that's far outweighed by the harm they're causing by not policing their own.

Re:Autie/Aspie is not a disease

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, I see that you weren't lying about the hypersensitive part.

Re:Autie/Aspie is not a disease

[david_thornley]

Mom had an oncologist (cancer doctor) once who never looked at us when we were talking to him.

Re:Autie/Aspie is not a disease

[Anonymous Coward]

The current hype around STEM jobs hides the fact that knowing people is still a much better way of being successful than knowing things.

This does depend on what you consider success.

Re:Autie/Aspie is not a disease

[tsotha]

Yes, I know that STEM jobs are considered well-paying, but with the same work ethic and intellectual ability that they require, one could easily make more money in other fields.

You're comparing the very top and the almost-very-top of the economic pyramid here. A salary of $143,705 in the US, which is definitely achievable for a software developer, puts you in the 98th income percentile. The fact that you can find other jobs that pay even more doesn't mean STEM jobs don't pay well, and the idea we're "doing the hard work for little money" just doesn't pass the laugh test.

Re:Autie/Aspie is not a disease

[Anonymous Coward]

Jesus, did the DNS for Flex magazine get Rick-rolled to ./ for the day?

Sounds like somebody has a lot of pent-up resentment for people that show a natural talent for something, and heaven forbid we identify a correlation between a certain cognitive trait (which you lack) and that aptitude (I'm gonna guess ditto). Nobody said 'genius', did they? Aptitude is the word, although I will forgive you for not seeing the distinction since neither word really seems within your wheelhouse.

Fact of the matter is, ASD (the real one, not the one where somebody is just shitty socially and uses that as an excuse) is characterized by a preoccupation with patterns. It's pretty damn obvious how that leads to improved abilities for abstracting problems in novel ways and recognition of when a set of seemingly unrelated objects share a common property or behavior, and could potentially be addressed by a common interface. What you have there is called the fundamentals of a good software designer.

Or in other words, your boss.

Re:Autie/Aspie is not a disease

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, but pretty much every other profession has close to zero chance of cracking 380k; that's why it's called the 1%. Meanwhile, many programmers make it into the top 20% of earners, straight out of college, while it might take the top people in other professions decades of working experience to reach that point.

Of course money doesn't define your worth as a person.

Re:Autie/Aspie is not a disease

[Anonymous Coward]

I would. I don't want to work with union members. The few times I've worked anywhere near union shops the miasma of stupidity almost killed me.

No, sir, you can't plug that computer into the wall, you need to get an electrician to do that. No, sir, you can't carry a box upstairs, you have to get one of the facilities people to do that.

And work with bad technical people? I'd rather gouge out my eyes. I'd get grieved every day for sending lmgtfy links back to the idiots.

Re: Autie/Aspie is not a disease

[ememisya]

Maybe he was being nice? Not everybody appreciates eye contact. It's like the firm handshake, I don't care for it, says nothing about that person except that they think a firm handshake says something about that person. Then again maybe not, maybe they just like to squeeze hands. I personally find that some people are more reactive than others, we call those people autistic, aspergers, whatever. Those people live closer to "now", generally, and take long breaks from it when it gets overwhelming to react to so many things. So maybe it's just a different way of filtering information and connecting them. I mean we're all just breathing, eating, breeding mammals, some tweet worse than others, big whoop.

Re:Autie/Aspie is not a disease

[tehcyder]

Why does the mainstream society try so hard to cure human evolution?

When your teachers told you you were "special", it wasn't a fucking compliment.

Re:Autie/Aspie is not a disease

[tehcyder]

Oh how cute, another special snowflake.

Re:Autie/Aspie is not a disease

[tehcyder]

They don't form protective organizations. In fact, they're often anti-union

Wait what? The reason they're anti-union (in california anyway, assuming you can even find anti-union folks here) is because the unions go all out to protect even the bad teachers, to the point of preventing the school districts from firing teachers for some truly outrageous and inappropriate behavior. They'll sometimes even shame the good teachers for making the mediocre ones look bad by contrast. Nothing to do with this Randian stuff you seemingly pulled out of nowhere.

So no teacher has ever been fired where there are teachers' unions? Really?Should be easy enough to demonstrate.

In fact, unions "protect" both good and bad employees, for the very simple reason that they both have the same fucking rights.

Re:Autie/Aspie is not a disease

[dpidcoe]

So no teacher has ever been fired where there are teachers' unions? Really?Should be easy enough to demonstrate.

Holy fuck. Where did I even come close to saying that? Re-read what I wrote and then get back to me if you actually want to have a discussion.

Wow, er, really?

[Ihlosi]

Someone actually did a a study to scientifically confirm what mountains of anectodes strongly suggested? Impressive.

Re:Wow, er, really?

[mwvdlee]

Must have been somebody who's quite fond of statistics.

Re:Wow, er, really?

[Flavianoep]

Of course. That's all anecdotal evidence is good for.

Re:Wow, er, really?

[Rei]

And found an overwhelming ratio of "an average AQ score of 21.9 compared to a score of 18.9". Stop the presses, it's time to draw all sorts of wide ranging conclusions based on a single study finding a difference 3 points in AQ score.

Re:Wow, er, really?

[pr0nbot]

Not to be autistic, but...

Depends on the scale. If 21.9 represents the maximum on the scale, and 0 the minimum, then a difference of 3 would be ~13.7%.

Re:Wow, er, really?

[Jason Levine]

21.9 isn't the maximum. I just took the quiz online and I scored a 36. The quiz I took said that anything 34 or above meant that Autism was likely. (My son was diagnosed with high functioning autism and we're sure I'm undiagnosed autistic as well.) When my wife (who is definitely not on the spectrum) took the test once, she scored about 10 or 11.

Re:Wow, er, really?

[alvinrod]

The raw difference doesn't matter much when determining if there is a statistically significant difference between two populations as much as knowing the distribution of the data and the standard deviation. You might have two populations that only differ by 3 points, but if both data sets have a standard deviation of one, there's obviously a difference between the two.

My main issue is that with tests like the one used in this study, the same people taking it again a few weeks later would likely differ by a few points. Perhaps at the sample size they're dealing with, that's not a problem, but the imprecision of the instrument should be considered.

Re:Wow, er, really?

[dunkelfalke]

34 here, but I definitely don't have autism, just a dysthymia and the avoidant personality disorder which got much better after I have started taking SSRI.
Some symptoms just overlap.

Re:Wow, er, really?

[Jason Levine]

That's why the online quiz isn't a diagnostic tool that will definitively tell you that you have autism. If you score high on the test, you are more likely to have autism, but you could also have other conditions that result in a high test score. An actual diagnosis (like I got for my son) takes hours and is performed by a trained medical professional.

Re:Wow, er, really?

[david_thornley]

I

For the sake of argument, suppose it's a normal distribution. In that case, moving the mean by 3 could considerably increase the number of people over 34, depending on other things like standard deviation, skew, kurtosis, etc.

Re:Wow, er, really?

[KGIII]

I came in at a 31. I tried to answer as objectively as I could but the questions bothered me - they're too concrete and the situation varies so my answers may vary. Lacking context that meant that certain answers were only slightly agreed with or disagreed with. This, while an interesting metric, I'm unsure of its validity. I am not diagnosed with autism nor any mental disorder other than addiction and have had clinical depression (diagnosed) on more than one occasion in my life.

(I don't really have to worry about insurance companies scouring the 'net for my info. I can be open about such.)

I am unsure of how to actually take the test. There are situations where I'd certainly be willing to answer the more extreme choices but it's all very subjective and kind of confusing. I'm not sure what they expect. :/ I neither identify with nor am diagnosed with Autism. I certainly do have some self-diagnosis - I am not a medical doctor. I do recall you mentioning this, specifically your son - I believe, in a previous thread or, at least, discussing it.

Re:Wow, er, really?

[Jason Levine]

This test definitely isn't a be-all-end-all determinant and shouldn't be used as a "diagnosis." It's more of a general indicator of "the higher you score the greater the likelihood you are on the autism spectrum." When my son was diagnosed, he went through 3 hours of observation in the class and 3 hours of one-on-one observation before the doctor came up with the diagnosis. The test does have some usefulness in a casual sense, though. I've often wondered if I could take out any mentions of "autism" in the test, give it to my family, and see how they score. My parents have been slow to accept the autism diagnosis (keep saying things like "he'll grow out of it") and I'm pretty sure my father might be on the spectrum as well.

Re:Wow, er, really?

[KGIII]

It is tough to be objective if you are aware of what the test's goal. Some were entirely too subjective for me to answer, at least in regards to myself and that resulted in wishy-washy answers where, at best, I could only partially agree or disagree. *chuckles* I'm not, at all, sure what that would make me except for someone who's not too fond of tests with vague questions.

Re:Wow, er, really?

[tehcyder]

we're sure I'm undiagnosed autistic as well

Yeah, you and everyone else on slashdot.

Why not just go to a doctor and get a diagnosis?

Re:Wow, er, really?

[Jason Levine]

I've considered this, but doing that costs money we don't have and wouldn't really help me or my son. (I already have my own coping methods and my son is already getting help developing his own.) So until money isn't an issue, I'm fine saying that I'm undiagnosed. People who know me recognize the traits in me. (It's harder seeing it online because I communicate so much better via online text communications than I do via in-person voice communications.)

Re:Wow, er, really?

[Anonymous Coward]

Shit I know you're not supposed to diagnose yourself on the internet but you may have just finally pointed me in the direction of finding out what the hell is wrong with me.

Wrong metrics

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the kind of thing that makes me thing of the saying "Statistics and damn statistics".

If you have a correlation between "a-social" and autism and have the same correlation between "a-social" and stem jobs, then you can say you have a correlation between both autism and stem jobs.

But that doesn't mean anything if you are measuring the wrong things and are looking at just a coincidence in the profiles for both autism / stem jobs.

Remenber also correlation != causation.

You could also find the same with reading sci-fi books for instance.

Re:Wrong metrics

[Maritz]

Correlation does not necessarily mean causation. That doesn't mean that there is never a relationship. That'd be fucking stupid.

Re:Wrong metrics

[NostalgiaForInfinity]

But that doesn't mean anything if you are measuring the wrong things and are looking at just a coincidence in the profiles for both autism / stem jobs. [...] Remenber also correlation != causation.

Statistically significant correlations are, by definition, improbably explained as "just a coincidence". And the statement "correlation does not mean causation" doesn't mean you can dismiss all correlations as potentially a-causal; what the statement means is that a correlation between A and B does not mean that A causes B; it might also mean that B causes A, or that C causes both A and B.

In fact, the causal relationship that is implied in these studies is not that "autism" causes "STEM jobs", but that a common factor (genetics and early childhood development) causes both; the authors may not talk about it because it's so obvious to their readers. The other two hypotheses, that "autism causes STEM jobs" or "STEM jobs cause autism" are implausible to begin with ("autism causes STEM jobs" is implausible because it would mean that you could induce autism in normal adults, and then they would suddenly start taking STEM jobs.)

If you have a correlation between "a-social" and autism and have the same correlation between "a-social" and stem jobs, then you can say you have a correlation between both autism and stem jobs.

Yes, and the causal relationship would still be that all three are caused by a common factor, namely "genetics and early childhood development". That is, there is no causal relationship between the observed variables, but they are all caused by the same common factor.

Re:Wrong metrics

[Anonymous Coward]

The other two hypotheses, that "autism causes STEM jobs" or "STEM jobs cause autism" are implausible to begin with ("autism causes STEM jobs" is implausible because it would mean that you could induce autism in normal adults, and then they would suddenly start taking STEM jobs.)

Autism causes stem jobs (i.e. STEM jobs wouldn't exist without autism) would indeed be a perculiar intepretation. However tendencies that are associated with autism tending to cause someone to be more likely to be in a STEM career is one possible interpretation of the data. This may iinclude the interests that are more probable with such tendencies in childhood.

it would mean that you could induce autism in normal adults, and then they would suddenly start taking STEM jobs

I'm not sure you could cause someone to become autistic (let alone ethically) but perhaps if you could they would be more likely to than they where before; However without a history of such tendencies they would be starting from a different point than someone with such a history.

springer paywall

[mynamestolen]

3 clicks before you hit paywall behind which are details of the survey instrument

So...

[symes]

I would much rather we classify conditions such as autism by the extent that someone is unable to lead a full and prosperous life. Rather than get all tangled up with low-level biases that may or may not say something about the disability. All this study really shows is that personality types are attracted to certain jobs. It does not advance our knowledge of autism. What would have been really interesting is whether there is a change in score over time as people enter various careers - to more autistic traits emerge in people who code for a living.

Re:So...

[mwvdlee]

This.

It's weird that a lesser ability to socialize (high AQ) is considered a condition whereas a lesser ability to see patterns and handle information (low AQ) is considered normal.

Re:So...

[Sique]

Because for some reason, working together in groups is more important for your survival and procreation than being able to spot patterns. The pattern spotting ability of the average human has been proven as being 'good enough'.

Re:So...

[Anonymous Coward]

This.

It's weird that a lesser ability to socialize (high AQ) is considered a condition whereas a lesser ability to see patterns and handle information (low AQ) is considered normal.

No, since non-autistic IT workers exists, and stupid aspergers exists. The two are not tied strongly and a social handicap is just that, a social handicap.

Re:So...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a self-selecting survey that anyone could enter and any number of times, i.e. pretty useless in the real world for many reasons. This wasn't a proper study by Cambridge researchers, it was a student's project. One that got a lot over coverage via social media then then on to the gutter press and red-top daily rags.

Re:So...

[Ihlosi]

Because for some reason, working together in groups is more important for your survival and procreation than being able to spot patterns.

Yes. It's enough if one in the group spots the hungry tiger, if the rest of the group the cooperates well enough to kill it.

Re:So...

[AmiMoJo]

We have to get away from this simplistic view that labelling is automatically bad. Autism is a scale, and at one end it makes it very hard for people to function normally in society. It's a good thing that we have identified it and found ways to help people who are affected in that way.

What I find more interesting is that STEM is somehow more attractive to people who are a little further along the scale than average. It actually backs up a lot of what has been said recently about social issues in STEM.

Re:So...

[GrumpySteen]

It's not weird when you take into account the fact that you're using the popular (and incorrect) view of what constitutes autism. The DSM definition of autism details exactly what criteria are used to diagnose Autism Spectrum Disorder and it has nothing to do with seeing patterns or handling information.

While their are some autistics who excel at seeing patterns or handling information, the majority do not. You might as well say that having a big dick is a sign of autism spectrum disorder since there are some autistics who have big dicks even though the majority do not.

Re:So...

[gweihir]

Labeling is not bad. What people associate with labels is.

Re:So...

[jay age]

If that lower AQ is anywhere near average for the whole population, it's not weird.

"Normal" is just a another word for "average".

Re:So...

[RabidReindeer]

Labelling/stereotyping is "bad" in that it is a simplification mechanism. Simplification is essential for us to deal with a complex world without becoming totally overloaded, but it also means that we have deliberately donned blinders and we often forget that just because we don't see something, that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. And can turn around suddenly and bite you.

Re:So...

[Jason Levine]

When we were first getting our son's diagnosis, we were scared of labeling him - thinking, as many do, that sticking a label on him would harm him. Instead, getting that diagnosis let us get access to supports that have helped him to thrive in school when he would otherwise have floundered.

Re:So...

[Jason Levine]

To use the expression common in the autism community: "If you've met one person with autism, you've met one person with autism." In other words, every person is different and will have differing characteristics. Some will overlap but then others will have no overlap at all. What helps me get through my days doesn't always help my son.

Re:So...

[Anonymous Coward]

Hold on there cowboy, it aint the tigers, its them thar leopards that has the spots!

Re:So...

[Kjella]

It's weird that a lesser ability to socialize (high AQ) is considered a condition whereas a lesser ability to see patterns and handle information (low AQ) is considered normal.

Honestly, I don't find it more surprising that a lot of people with autistic traits work in STEM than that psychopaths become CxOs or pathological liars work in marketing. The way the computer barfs on a single misplaced comma it takes a bit of OCD to write good code. Most things are fine in moderation and a problems in the extreme.

Re:So...

[internerdj]

"All this study really shows is that personality types are attracted to certain jobs. It does not advance our knowledge of autism."
If this is indeed saying that people with autistic traits are attracted to STEM jobs, and that men are more likely to have autistic traits, then we've at least a partial explanation for the problem of women in STEM. And explaining why men are taking up the higher paying STEM jobs helps partially explain why women aren't paid as well as men. Those things shape all sorts of policy decisions.

Re:So...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's weird that a lesser ability to socialize (high AQ) is considered a condition whereas a lesser ability to see patterns and handle information (low AQ) is considered normal.

If you haven't experienced the devastating effects of having weak/no social relations and a small professional network, then none of you are "autistic" enough to really be qualified to have an opinion.

Humans are social animals. Engineering, including software development, is a highly coordinated team effort, sometimes stretching across tens of thousands of individuals. Lacking the ability to fit well into these environment is crippling no matter how intelligent you are.

Re: So...

[Anonymous Coward]

As a diagnosed case of mild aspie, I can assure you that Asperger existed, although it has recently been merged with the other Autistic things into one spectrum.

Re:So...

[orledrat]

Labelling/stereotyping is "bad" in that it is a simplification mechanism. Simplification is essential for us to deal with a complex world without becoming totally overloaded, but it also means that we have deliberately donned blinders and we often forget that just because we don't see something, that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. And can turn around suddenly and bite you.

But that is how science works. The overwhelming complexity of the world with all its parameters is broken down into small and specific models that give rise to theories which are tested by hypothesis, a process that incrementally increases the body of verified knowledge that might once predict *something* about *some* real situation.

Re:So...

[orledrat]

Stress, elevated cortisol levels in specific, is a constant and a hallmark. How this manifests and how it is coped with is what makes this such a colorful yet homogeneous condition.

Re:So...

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought it was Sociopaths that made better CxOs

Re:So...

[kheldan]

It's weird that a lesser ability to socialize (high AQ) is considered a condition whereas a lesser ability to see patterns and handle information (low AQ) is considered normal.

Humans are, by large and far, still more animal than they are what I'd consider 'sentient, thinking beings', and that's why.

Re:So...

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed. When I had a diagnosis for behaviors I knew were atypical, I could understand why they happened and what I needed to do to cope with them.

It also made it easier for me to understand why I would get odd reactions to things I would do, and to not do some of those things unless I could prove that they were objectively beneficial to me.

In that sense, I also learned how other people were different than I am, and so I could achieve better interaction with them by understanding better what they would feel. In short, I know how to compromise instead of assuming I am being tormented or left out on purpose.

Re:So...

[Anonymous Coward]

If not a single person who has this disease shares common symptoms, then maybe it isn't a disease at all.

Re:So...

[Anonymous Coward]

Outside a University's hard science & math departments, computers and basic maths like calculus are considered some form of magic by the majority of people.

Are you *sure* you want to stake a claim based on the average person?

Re:So...

[mwvdlee]

But is the pattern spotting ability of somebody with less than average pattern spotting ability "good enough".
There is also some level of social skills that is "good enough".
How about people on the opposite end of the AQ spectrum; those as far removed from the average as aspergers.

Re:So...

[Anonymous Coward]

This.

It's weird that a lesser ability to socialize (high AQ) is considered a condition whereas a lesser ability to see patterns and handle information (low AQ) is considered normal.

It's not weird that a lesser ability to socialize (high AQ) is considered atypical whereas a lesser ability to see patterns and handle information (low AQ) is considered typical.

Re:So...

[mwvdlee]

But it's not. AQ can be both above and below average.

Re:So...

[Anonymous Coward]

That's what I wonder too. Attention to detail, fascination with numbers, ability to focus on detail for extended periods of time, interest in inanimate "stuff"... these are not negative traits in and of themselves. In "stem" (hate that acronym) they are strong positives, and naturally people with these traits will be attracted to stem. Not too dissimilar to the way those whose strengths lie in reading emotions, socialising etc are drawn to jobs that involve a lot of same.

But then again when I took an online test last year I got a score of 34, so I guess I might be a tiny bit biased.

High correlation between nerotypical and slackers.

[trout007]

What Is NT?

Neurotypical syndrome is a neurobiological disorder characterized by preoccupation with social concerns, delusions of superiority, and obsession with conformity.

Neurotypical individuals often assume that their experience of the world is either the only one, or the only correct one. NTs find it difficult to be alone. NTs are often intolerant of seemingly minor differences in others. When in groups NTs are socially and behaviorally rigid, and frequently insist upon the performance of dysfunctional, destructive, and even impossible rituals as a way of maintaining group identity. NTs find it difficult to communicate directly, and have a much higher incidence of lying as compared to persons on the autistic spectrum.

NT is believed to be genetic in origin. Autopsies have shown the brain of the neurotypical is typically smaller than that of an autistic individual and may have overdeveloped areas related to social behavior.

Help find a cure!
http://isnt.autistics.org/

THIS JUST IN

[steevven1]

SCIENCE CAUSES AUTISM. No wonder with all those chemicals in it.

Re:THIS JUST IN

[Anonymous Coward]

Mathematicians have all the problems, but chemists have all the solutions.

Re:High correlation between nerotypical and slacke

[Aardpig]

Spoken like a true Sperglord. Well done!

Dilbert

[johnsnails]

http://assets.amuniversal.com/...

Re:High correlation between nerotypical and slacke

[Maritz]

W the brain of the neurotypical is typically smaller than that of an autistic individual

Both of which are one-fifth the size of a sperm whale brain. Got a point to make there or..?

Re:High correlation between nerotypical and slacke

[Flavianoep]

I know you are being sarcastic, but there is a large amount of anecdotal evidence that NT is an actual syndrome.

Bull

[nospam007]

Non-STEM people just can't concentrate because they have the attention span of a gnat, that's why they call the thinkers autistic.

Re:Bull

[Ihlosi]

Non-STEM people just can't concentrate because they have the attention span of a gnat, that's why they call the thinkers autistic.

Concentration is usually task-related. Non-STEM people can usually concentrate just fine on tasks involving dealing with people. Autistic people can concentrate just fine on tasks that involve not dealing with other, especially Non-STEM, people.

Re:Bull

[Anonymous Coward]

I've got plenty of autistic traits. A decent attention span is not one of them. I got screwed by the gene pool.

Re:Bull

[sociocapitalist]

Non-STEM people just can't concentrate because they have the attention span of a gnat, that's why they call the thinkers autistic.

Sorry did you

Finally we know the reason

[Anonymous Coward]

So I guess Jenny McCarthy's kid got autism because she's such a scientist and not because of inoculations.

Re: Finally we know the reason

[Anonymous Coward]

But she, a normal thinker, told us it was because of frickin mercury and ether in the injections.

You obviously don't know what real autism is

[Viol8]

These people are severly mentally handicapped, usually with an apparent low IQ, either due to lack of education or inability to interact enough to measure it properly - the Rain Man style savants are very few and far between and even they have problems functioning in society.

Re:You obviously don't know what real autism is

[RogueyWon]

Indeed.

I have a cousin with a severely autistic son. He's in his early teens now but is completely incapable of any kind of social interactions and has never shown any kind of interest in any kind of intellectual activity. He mostly just sits in the middle of the floor and requires day-round care for even his most basic needs. He has occasional screaming fits (sometimes physically violent), which tend to be triggered by visitors or other events that interrupt his routine. He's never spoken a single coherent word.

He shows a basic attention reaction to a handful of external stimuli (most notably, for some reason, that godawful Donkey Kong CGI cartoon show from a decade or so ago, which will get him to focus his eyes on a TV), but that's about it.

He doesn't scrawl complex equations on the wall. He doesn't paint pictures of indescribable beauty. His intelligence, as you suggest, is impossible to measure because he simply doesn't interact with the world.

This isn't a different way of being a functioning person. It's a very severe disability. He would have a better chance of living an independent life if he were quadriplegic rather than autistic.

I've seen lots of people claim to be "a little bit autistic" as a way of excusing and enabling their own anti-social behaviours. But there's a big difference between "I don't get along well with others" and "full-blown autism".

Re:You obviously don't know what real autism is

[Dins]

I've seen lots of people claim to be "a little bit autistic" as a way of excusing and enabling their own anti-social behaviours. But there's a big difference between "I don't get along well with others" and "full-blown autism".

Indeed. It's called tha autism spectrum for a reason. My 25 year old son is moderate to severely autistic. When he was first diagnosed it was at a time when autism wasn't the "mental disease du jour". Having lived with him for this long, I can clearly see behaviors in anyone that I would consider on the spectrum, myself included. And yes, some of those characteristics would be beneficial in a STEM career. But it bothers me when people who obviously don't say, "I have autism" or "that's my autism kicking in".

True, diagnosed, full autism isn't an evolutionary advantage because 95% (guessing, but it feels right) of those people will not reproduce, my son included. My son has a good life and even has his own apartment now (heavily supervised by case workers and us), but likely the only type of job he will ever be able to hold down is grocery bagger, which he does now. To me it feels like the disease of autism grossly over-amplifies a certain set of characteristics that are present in all people - to the point where it's debilitating.

You are not autistic because you like math or because you are socially awkward...

Re:You obviously don't know what real autism is

[mysidia]

He's in his early teens now but is completely incapable of any kind of social interactions and has never shown any kind of interest in any kind of intellectual activity.

That's clearly a mental impediment/disease. The trouble is when they start saying that functioning people are autistic, because they don't interact with others very well, or they're anxious and don't have the average person's ability to naturally respond in any social situation or ability to participate in a conversation the same way as others.

If they're saying that people who are scientists and engineers that succeed in an intellectual and professional endeavor are actually autistic, due to lower than average ability to engage socially. And yeah, it might negatively affect them, but...

At what point does the latter just become a subjective derogatory judgement of people who are different? Shouldn't it be the rest of society that adjusts to better accommodate the type of people who are scientists and engineers?

I think the problem is the mental health industry needs to further narrow the definition of "Autism";

Re:You obviously don't know what real autism is

[Anonymous Coward]

Quite the opposite has been done - autism is now a spectrum that easily ranges from fully disabled to the most successful people in our society. It is a label that has been (ironically) bestowed by a system that now claims it grants some kind of special "system thinking powers". The whole thing makes no sense and is dangerous thinking for everyone's continued success and mental health (again, IMHO)

Re:You obviously don't know what real autism is

[jittles]

I can't speak to your friend's exact situation because each child is different. I know someone who has a daughter that was very similar to your friend for a long time. She got some special help (county provided assistance - special therapy that I am not familiar with) and eventually started talking and behaving more like you would expect a child to behave. She still acts inappropriately at times and, despite being her neighbor for many years, does not know my name. She just calls me a generic name. She will probably never be able to care for herself, but she can at least communicate her needs.

Re:You obviously don't know what real autism is

[jedidiah]

"Mental health" as it is defined by shiny happy people and effectiveness are two entirely orthogonal things. The real problem with "mental health" is that anything that isn't deemed normal by the shiny happy people is declared some sort of pathology.

"We don't suffer from mental illness, we rather enjoy it."

Re:You obviously don't know what real autism is

[Vidar Leathershod]

In years gone by, this would have been more accurately described as severe mental retardation. Unfortunately, society has decided to abandon the term "retarded" due to perceived stigma. I feel this is unfortunate, as the term is actually quite accurate. Any term can, and in fact historically has been, co-opted to become a pejorative describing people who don't actually fall under the classification of some disability.

Many parents, faced with having a child with a severe mental deficiency, leap to "autism" as a way of internally mitigating the greater negative internal emotions that would follow a diagnosis of mental retardation. Medical professionals accommodate this psychological need of the parents, or buy into the classification themselves due to modern conditioning.

I think that as time goes on, and more knowledge is gained, diagnoses of "autism" or "Asperger's" will eventually be more limited. A huge portion currently diagnosed will be seen as just being socially awkward as youth. Anecdotally, many children in my school environment in the 70's and 80's would today be characterized as being "on the scale". They were shy, didn't make friends, and didn't know how to "get into a group". Due to the demographic nature of my town (few leave), I can say that I cannot think of one of those people who would consider themselves to be "on the scale". At different times in their lives, they got over most of their shyness, and they participate very effectively in local businesses, charity organizations, and social clubs. They may not be boisterous, but they carry on conversations and speak up when they have something to say.

The ones who have a true mental disability will be classified in ways that reflect the actual reason for their deficits. This will increase our ability to mitigate the risks of children being born with or developing a disability. It will also give us a better chance at treating such people. Sweeping everyone under one grand carpet will do less to address the individual issues of each person.

Re:You obviously don't know what real autism is

[Anonymous Coward]

Autism is not a disease.

And I think that if your son was put in truly the right circumstances he could probably pull off things that are not accessible to a majority of people. "Grocery bagger" is not the right circumstances, it's a high-noise, very busy, socially intensive situation that will basically kill anyone with autism mentally due to causing sensory overload and being a situationally confusing situation. Surely you can find something better that makes use of your son's particular intellectual profile and capacities?

Re:You obviously don't know what real autism is

[serviscope_minor]

"We don't suffer from mental illness, we rather enjoy it."

I've yet to meet anyone who sufferes from actualy clinical depression who enjoys it. Plenty of mental illnesses are in fact illnesses.

Re:You obviously don't know what real autism is

[Anonymous Coward]

I am in the autism spectrum. I'm 46. I can now interact in an almost normal way, people don't notice at all I'm autistic, but only about 5 to 10 hours a week max. The "acting normal game" take me so much energy that I become extremely tired very fast. After a two hours meeting, I must take at least a day of rest. If I'm in a place where there is more than 5 of 6 people, I must keep all social interactions to a minimum. If I don't, I revert to my natural way of interacting with people and I end up pissing off everyone. I live alone with three cats and almost no one ever come to my apartment. Except from my landlord who comes once a month to collect the rent, the last person who entered my house was my mother about three months ago. Other than work, I have no social life whatsoever. The first time I had sex, I was 40 years old.

So yes, I guess you can say I'm "mentally handicapped".

On the other hand, my IQ is 155. Maybe you think it's a low IQ, but I think most people will disagree with you.

Captcha : "single". I swear /. is sentient.

Re:You obviously don't know what real autism is

[Dins]

Do you think we've not tried everything we can over the course of 25 years including everything you suggest? Every situation is different, but in this case you are completely incorrect. He has actually come quite a ways, but if you ever met him you'd understand. Bagging groceries is a hell of an achievement considering where we started...

Re:You obviously don't know what real autism is

[jaklode]

+1

Re:You obviously don't know what real autism is

[Anonymous Coward]

This aspie agrees with you! For me, it's a days instead of weeks, but I can fully understand it.

Re:You obviously don't know what real autism is

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you're highlighting a problem with the "autism spectrum". Not to say that it's wrong, because I think seeing it as a spectrum is correct (at least until we find concrete physical diagnoses and exactly what is going on), but once they eliminated Asperger's as its own category, being socially awkward enough and/or liking math too much can actually place someone on the spectrum.

Re:You obviously don't know what real autism is

[Dins]

Anyone who says that autism isn't a disease has never spent time around people with moderate to severe autism. I've fought this thing for over 25 years now and HAVE been around these people. What IS a problem is trying to lump just about everything into the autism spectrum. This just started happening in the last 5-10 years, and I've watched it progress. It's frustrating because it causes people who haven't been exposed to real autism to write it off as the "mental disease du jour" that I previously mentioned.

Somebody sees a list of symptoms and thinks, "Hey, socially withdrawn? Dislikes change? Savant characteristics? That describes Bob!" Then other people come along and say, "Are you nuts? There's nothing really wrong with Bob." Meanwhile nobody has really been exposed to the real thing and so they think everything can be fixed by really challenging these people or finding the right job for their characteristics.

I'd challenge anyone to watch my son sit and rock back and forth while flipping the same toy back and forth from hand to hand for hours on end, say yes when he means no and no when he means yes (not always, just enough to confuse things) and tell me we just haven't found the right ways to use his talents. He's a grocery bagger, and we're very proud he's gotten to that level, thank you very much...

Re:You obviously don't know what real autism is

[Dins]

THIS! Yes, that's exactly it - all of it. See my other response below which kind of elaborates on that.

Re:You obviously don't know what real autism is

[Anonymous Coward]

(same AC, wanted to add)

I personally believe that a lot of high-functioning autistic traits (ie, most of those that previously would have been called Asperger's) are almost entirely environmental or learned behaviors rather than something actually being inherently "wrong" in the brain. Not the case with people like your son, who obviously have a disease and could not have been prevented, but for many of the other cases out there.

It has been proven that brain chemistry and even physical shape can change with the things people experience in their lives. Lately we've even been discovering that even the affects of our grandparent's environmental factors get passed on and impact us. We also know that often autism is "triggered" by highly stressful events. Abuse, injury, the few legit cases where vaccines "caused" autism. To me it seems very similar to sociopathy, PTSD, alcoholism, etc, in that it is just as much the result of a coping mechanism or externally created effect that, while it may be heavily influenced by genes, is not actually "caused" by anything. Kind like how cancer is usually not actually "caused" by anything, but based on genetic factors, diet, stress, radiation, and a multitude of other things you can predict where it's more likely to show up.

Re:You obviously don't know what real autism is

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks for calling us high-functioning autists "diseased". It is your choice to consider it a plague, but attitudes like that (both from people with family with autism and those without) are really not helping with increasing the acceptance of a handicap that often is a royal pain in the arse, also precisely because of people who don't want to see that a different mode of thinking as provided by autism can have major advantages over "normal" functioning, even in otherwise low-functioning people.

I frankly can't understand how "grocery bagger" can be a good environment for someone with autism; when I see the working conditions of normal people who do that kind of work they are almost diametrically opposite to the "ideal" conditions for autistic people as described in scientific literature. But well, do whatever suits you (and I sort of envy your son, because at least he's oblivious to this kind of crap; I'm not, and what you wrote really pissed me off...).

Re:You obviously don't know what real autism is

[Dins]

I mostly agree. My wife and I were never ones to look for someone or something to "blame" for our son's condition. We accepted it as a fact of life that needed to be dealt with, and just tried to ignore all the fluff and give him the best chance to be and do everything he's capable of. We didn't chase after every "miracle cure" that fell flat.

Nobody knows what causes moderate to severe autism. Obviously I've followed the whole vaccine debate closely, but I don't buy that that's it. I personally think there can be more than one cause. However I will say it's highly unusual for someone to develop strong autism-like symptoms after a child learns to talk well. It has happened, but it's rare. So I'm pretty suspect of people later in life suddenly "developing autism". I think there are other things going on there...

Re:You obviously don't know what real autism is

[Anonymous Coward]

autism is now a spectrum that easily ranges from fully disabled to the most successful people in our society. [...] The whole thing makes no sense and is dangerous thinking for everyone's continued success and mental health (again, IMHO)

Most everything in life has levels, variations, and exceptions.

For sure, 12-year-olds calling their teammates 'autists' in Call of Duty or World of Warcraft, for not focusing on the objective, not noticing enemies, or not listening to his instructions, is a derogatory misuse of the term. Same for adults in an office environment, for example.

But that does not mean a psychiatric condition cannot be the same in two persons with even very different current behaviors. And for sure, not only because of different life conditions, but also because of the genetical (genes and their expressions), physical and physiological levels, variations, and exceptions, which still can rationaly be gathered under a single useful designation, with a global definition.

Of course, you can then assign different qualifiers, to some of these levels, variations, and exceptions.

Negating conditions to people with lower levels of/fewer symptoms, can prevent them from being assisted or treated properly, if at all. And they can feel very isolated, being rejected by both 'sides'.

Aside from that, you can also usefully consider, in this case, "autistic tendencies" in some really particular behaviors, which may well have similar root causes, although the condition in question is clearly not present. Of course you'll have to be particularly careful of the language used, to avoid this confusion.

Re:You obviously don't know what real autism is

[Anonymous Coward]

>"We don't suffer from mental illness, we rather enjoy it."

The problem is your female co-workers don't enjoy being stuck with some idiotic nerd all day.

Re:You obviously don't know what real autism is

[Anonymous Coward]

So sick of nerds like you claiming "autism" as your excuse for having atrocious social skills. Being a gauche boob in social situations is not autism, it's being a gauche boob. In fact, you claiming to know more about autism than someone who has spent 25 years raising a child with autism is the perfect example of a boorish moron with no social skills. A person with actual autism would not be able to go to Slashdot and write up some big self-important post of shit. You don't have "autism", you're just a fucking rude. Fuck off.

Re:You obviously don't know what real autism is

[tnk1]

This feels more like about how *you* don't want to be labelled as opposed to what has happened to this person's son. Well, no one is labeling you. You're doing that yourself.

Perhaps you would care to describe the sort of conditions that are "correct" for his son from scientific literature? You might know something that this person has not been able to find out in 25 years of working with his son. That can happen, science advances all the time, but it is just as likely that he's familiar with them and his son does not respond to those environments.

You don't know what was tried, so it is unclear to me where you get the idea that you can simply assume that he hasn't tried any of those things.

The reality is that severe autism can have a wide variety of outcomes based on the level of development of particular capabilities. You could end up as a very, very odd math genius. Or you could just end up very, very odd and incapable of functioning without considerable attention and a controlled environment. I can totally see how it might be an achievement for his son simply to be able to hold down a job and be able to interact with people in an uncontrolled environment.

Re:You obviously don't know what real autism is

[david_thornley]

I can figure out some of the stuff I'm missing. Talking to strangers looks like it could be fun, if I had the ability to get a conversation going and continuing easily. Being able to get women sexually interested in me would have been real nice back before I married one.

I'm not complaining about my life here, and wouldn't want to give up my abilities for social skills, but I'd like to have intuitive social skills in addition.

Re:You obviously don't know what real autism is

[Anonymous Coward]

You are not autistic because you like math or because you are socially awkward...

or?

Re:You obviously don't know what real autism is

[KGIII]

It probably wouldn't piss you off if you were really autistic. Maybe see a good doctor and get medication for your behavior and personality disorders instead of trying to self-diagnose as something trendy because it gives you an excuse for your piss-poor behavior. Using a fake diagnosis as an excuse for your unwillingness to uphold your end of the social contract is far worse than anything you claimed the parent-post did. It's akin to wearing a uniform and medals you did not earn.

Re:You obviously don't know what real autism is

[Anonymous Coward]

There's a difference between real disorders like depression (which is associated with clear chemical imbalances) or things that cause you to become divorced from reality like schizophrenia, and the kind of things OP is referring to where anything that makes the "shiny happy people" uncomfortable (i.e. any sign that you don't enjoy 24/7 socializing) becomes a "disorder."

That my idea of a nice, relaxing day off is reading Larry Niven or Neal Stephenson, then going bouldering by myself rather than hanging out with 15 friends, then going to a house party, then going clubbing all night (all while checking my twitter-book-feed-IM-grams every 30 seconds) does not constitute a "disorder."

Re:You obviously don't know what real autism is

[tehcyder]

Yeah, I'm sure an Anonymous Cunt on the internet knows better than the parents and the medical professionals involved.

Re:You obviously don't know what real autism is

[tehcyder]

a different mode of thinking as provided by autism can have major advantages

Yeah, it appears to give you the ability to totally divorce yourself from reality. Saves money on drugs, I suppose.

Re:You obviously don't know what real autism is

[tehcyder]

"We don't suffer from mental illness, we rather enjoy it."

I've yet to meet anyone who sufferes from actualy clinical depression who enjoys it. Plenty of mental illnesses are in fact illnesses.

Once you allow autism to mean "occasionally socially awkward" everyone can call themselves autistic and the word has become meaningless.

It's offensive to those who actually have to deal with real autism.

Re:You obviously don't know what real autism is

[volmtech]

OH the joys of working in an exceptional student class. Not me, but my wife who had some humorous tales. One little girl couldn't stand singing. One little boy sang constantly. Put them side by side and hilarity ensues. She holds her hands over her ears and squeals "Stop singing!". He of course doubles his volume. After a few iterations she is reduced to continuous shrieking and he LA LAing at the top of his lungs.

Re:High correlation between nerotypical and slacke

[Viol8]

The plural of anecdote is not evidence.

Besides , a syndrome by definition is a-typical. Defining the typical as a syndrome robs the word of any meaning whatsoever.

Re:High correlation between nerotypical and slacke

[JaredOfEuropa]

I love it! Wish I had mod points today...

You are the one that doesn't understand Autism

[trout007]

Autism is just a preference for being alone from the Greek autos.

Low IQ has little to do with Autism. There are low IQ people that aren't autistic with all of the same issues.

Re:You are the one that doesn't understand Autism

[Viol8]

"Autism is just a preference for being alone from the Greek autos."

Horseshit. Go read up about it then get back to us.

Re:You are the one that doesn't understand Autism

[darniil]

Autism is just a preference for being alone from the Greek autos.

Wait, what's wrong with their cars?

Correlation?

[tinkerton]

Apparently whether correlation is very high or just statistically significant , it will always be reported as a correlation. Furthermore, while autism started out with some cliche cases gradually more and more cases occurred where people said 'we can't really call this autism so we'll call it autism spectrum then'. So you have this standardized test that checks for 'autism traits'. You know what it means? It measures how bad you are in human interaction and how good you are in understanding things and patterns. So yeah, I would expect scientists to score higher there.

What I would like to know is, what is the value of this research and why is it being funded?

Hmmmmm...

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me get this straight, males have higher AQ, and those in STEM field have higher AQ, but we are insisting that we must insist on trying for a 51:49 ratio of females to males in STEM.

Re:High correlation between nerotypical and slacke

[JaredOfEuropa]

A "huge survey showing correlation" is pretty much the plural of "anecdote" for large values of plurality.

So that is why there are more male in STEM ?

[aepervius]

If STEM favorize hiring autism spectrum disorder (high AQ) , since there are more men than women having ASD, it is then not a question of sexism as many pretend but at least partially just plain biology ?

Re:So that is why there are more male in STEM ?

[gweihir]

Obviously Biology is sexist. Time to end that science and all its subjects!

Re:So that is why there are more male in STEM ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Obviously, autism is just another example of white male privilege (it's more common in whites than among Hispanics and blacks) and just another way men oppress women! Just like the fact that we dare to die years earlier than women is an instance of male privilege! And the fact that men get all the dangerous jobs!

Re:So that is why there are more male in STEM ?

[Jason Levine]

One of the things I learned when we found out our son has autism, is that people with autism tend to think in an If-Then manner. "If this happens THEN do that." This works out great for programming - which can essentially be boiled down to "if this happens, then the computer should do that" - and other STEM-type careers. It doesn't work so well for social interactions which are a mess of shades of grey.

People with autism can "emulate" neurotypical by building up tons of social "if-then" rules that they follow, but (like computer emulation) it's not as fast as "running native neurotypical" and it can be tiring. I can get by in an office environment, but stick me in a party and I freeze up and don't know what rules to follow.

Re:So that is why there are more male in STEM ?

[Anonymous Coward]

"I can get by in an office environment, but stick me in a party and I freeze up.."

Describes myself perfect.

Re: So that is why there are more male in STEM ?

[Anonymous Coward]

It could still be socialization related. If the upbringing of girls is better at teaching coping or are considered more "normal" in context (less likely to consider a quiet girl unusual for example) more could pass as NT perhaps at the cost of specialization.

Biotech being a more female field than IT could be argued as suggesting socialization.

Re:So that is why there are more male in STEM ?

[thinkwaitfast]

All shades of grey can be broken down at a fine enough level to black and white only.

It's a matter of how soon you give up looking.

Definitely a STEM worker.

[Irate Engineer]

Definitely a STEM worker. I'm an excellent STEM worker.

Re:Definitely a STEM worker.

[Anonymous Coward]

Tell them about clothes from KMart.

Re:Definitely a STEM worker.

[Anonymous Coward]

With underwear from 400 Oak St.?

Newsflash: Science Nerds good at Science!

[Qbertino]

So, apparently being the type of Person that can get all worked up in sich issues sich as IP4 vs. IP6 or String Theory makes you good IT Person or Cosmologist/Physicist respectively.

Next up: A study that proves girly, exalted and hysteric types are into fashion and sometimes really good at it.

War against differences - driven by money

[Anonymous Coward]

It seems that what is missed here is the power of labels. Whatever "Autism" is has always been around. Now that we've named it we can market products and services to those who have, or believe they have it. We can "build community" around it because now that it has a label, people take comfort in being able to name their "oppressor" and have 5k walks for it and t-shirts and build "awareness" about it. What seems more accurate to me is that human beings in all societies collectively create their "normal" and anything outside that is abnormal and needs to be either corrected or ostracized.

A similar psychological method is used with pushing "change". An earlier comment about someone being a mainframe admin and then not being able to "keep up" and "be adaptable to change" offers yet another change kool-aid drinker perspective on this terrible subtle but very evil device. Some people just are not going to like your idea. Some ideas suck. It doesn't make them Neanderthals. That's just the "change" marketing people talking. You see, if you can't get people to accept constant "change" be it necessary or not then you cannot justify selling them more and more and more unnecessary bullshit. Technology is moving fast because we chose for it to move fast. It's not some natural phenomenon to which we are subject to although the brilliant marketers have much of us now believing that.

People are different. They have different attributes and characteristics. As soon as you group those characteristics and label them you have one of two motives, manipulation and/or subordination.

Re:War against differences - driven by money

[jedidiah]

I wish I had mod points for this.

Someone who is a mainframe admin has probably been around the block a few times and had probably seen a few iterations of the changing fashions in IT and in society in general. They are no longer impressed. They understand what's going on and they realize that it's not even new really. They may recognize it for the overhyped nonsense that it is. They may know not to get too excited and realize that "it too shall pass".

Re:War against differences - driven by money

[thinkwaitfast]

the moral mind

Re:War against differences - driven by money

[tnk1]

Perhaps that is true, and that is fine if they can reasonably expect to remain happily and gainfully employed as a mainframe operator.

For instance, if I'm a mainframe operator who is close to retirement, and I make good money, it is a logical choice to just stick with what I'm doing and ride it out.

However, if you've got another decade or so before you're out of the workforce, you don't have be impressed with change, but you do need to adapt to it.

Otherwise, you will be changed out of a job when you'd otherwise have the intelligence and ability to have learned the new hotness, but couldn't be bothered to.

Such an individual may not be impressed with change, but the rest of the world generally doesn't care what any one individual is impressed with.

Re:War against differences - driven by money

[Anonymous Coward]

Fair enough. So consider if a more "liberal" person who is pushing their change agenda decides that since you are not adapting that you must be autistic and labels you as such and thereby subordinates you in their mind and in the minds of others who cling to their influence that you are autistic and therefore defective because you resist change. These are the people who include "X is here, like it or not." in their communication. Feel free to insert, Mobile, Cloud, IoT, Big Data, Digital Transformation or any of that other buzzword nonsense. Its not that one should or would reject those concepts outright without evaluation, its simply that there are a set of problems that I'm interested in. If your new shiny tool helps me solve those problems then great, I'll be happy to use it. If your tool or method or whatever you're pushing doesn't interest me and I decide to stick with what I prefer it doesn't make me "against change" and therefore to be considered to exhibit autistic tendencies.

Re:War against differences - driven by money

[tnk1]

Yes, people will push you to do things you don't want or even need to do. All I can say is that you need to evaluate whether it is something that is happening whether you like it or not. If you can generate a well thought out argument for it to not be implemented, by all means present your case.

That said, unless the decision is ultimately yours, resistance is generally futile. Even if the company is better off with your older tool or process, resistance past an argument presented and rejected by those with the responsibility to make the decision is a poor idea.

I recall having employed someone on my team who resisted a certain process change that had been ordered from the top. I had no more choice over it than he did.

However, my team member resisted the change continuously, in fact enough so that it became a distraction. I spent a lot of time explaining that a) it wasn't really all that bad and b) that we needed to execute our directives. He eventually became insubordinate and was fired.

Do I believe he was right? Actually, no. His processes were firmly rooted in tried and true methods, but methods that were a decade old and no longer matched what we were trying to do. Did I sympathize with him about the sudden influx of buzzwords and having to change to some process filled with them? Oh, yes... I most certainly did.

He "just wanted to work", but unless you do the work you are instructed to, you're not actually doing your work. Your tasks are set by your employer, and your employer is who reaps the results of their own errors. Don't become a roadblock in front of a steamroller. You're there to get paid, you can always work your own way on your own time. Or change jobs to one that suits you.

And now thinking back, I wonder if I thought he was a little "autistic". I have no idea if he was, although he was smart, but very socially inept, and resistant to change. What really mattered, frankly, was that he was unwilling to accept that if he wouldn't change, he no longer was employable. The team was asked to do certain work, and provide certain deliverables, and he failed to do so. Unlike the poor saps who work in industry and are suddenly out of a job due to new skills they can't learn, he was more than capable of learning and mastering that process. He just didn't.

"Treatment" driving decline in STEM workers???

[Anonymous Coward]

From the time have called it a disease and have started treating it how many future STEM workers have we chemically lobotomised? How many future STEM workers have we medicated OUT!

Correlated by construction?

[PacoSuarez]

The AQ test has questions about social interaction and obsessiveness, but you are also asked to what extent you agree with "I am fascinated by numbers". Of course you are going to find more people fascinated by numbers in STEM fields. I wonder what results you get if you weed out the questions that guarantee correlation.

Re:Correlated by construction?

[Anonymous Coward]

Then there are questions like "I find myself drawn more strongly to people than to things." What? How does a well-rounded person even answer that? I like watching The Simpsons and building electronics, but I also like fucking my wife or having a beer with my friends. How can I even say which I am more strongly drawn to? It's probably people, but the degree feels very slight. Do I deserve a point on the AQ for being this pedantic about it?

Re:Correlated by construction?

[Anonymous Coward]

The question itself is nonsense. "People" are a subset of the enormous category of "Things".

Re:Correlated by construction?

[unimacs]

You can be "fascinated by numbers" and still score low on the test. It's measuring a whole bunch of traits.

I have many qualities that you'd associate with people in STEM fields (and I am a CS grad and software developer) but I only scored a 9.

people who care more about MATH than pronouns

[Anonymous Coward]

do better in science & engineering?!? I'm stunned, STUNNED, I say!

Re:High correlation between nerotypical and slacke

[Kartu]

It's about number of neurons, dude.
Long-finned pilot whale (also known as "dolphin" =)) is the only species with more neurons than humans.

So all we need...

[Anonymous Coward]

Is to inject more kids with autism cocktails at birth to get more engineers! No need for MS and other companies to keep trying to funnel students that show no aptitude nor interest into STEM programs!

*Note: for those unable to grasp sarcasm. Some or all of my comment may cause a "whooshing" sound.

Re:High correlation between nerotypical and slacke

[NostalgiaForInfinity]

Neurotypical syndrome is a neurobiological disorder characterized by preoccupation with social concerns, delusions of superiority, and obsession with conformity.

Don't dismiss it so lightly. Humans (and primates) are social creatures for a reason. Social groups are much stronger than individuals when it comes to conquering and defending resources. And building social groups takes political and social skills. At the individual level, if you have average intelligence and strength, your best bet for successfully passing on your genes is through your social skills (that's pretty much what NT means, unless it means that other thing about women that is also helpful for passing on their genes).

Successful societies really take both kinds: socially skilled managers and organizers, as well as highly intelligent individualists and loners. The problem is that both groups don't understand each other: the former group thinks that individualists and loners are disruptive and need to be forced back into the fold, while the latter often don't see the value of cooperation.

The solution is likely not to try to design one global society that accommodates both kinds of humans (and all the other varieties there are), but to allow many different societies to co-exist and give people the freedom to choose where they want to live.

Re:High correlation between nerotypical and slacke

[Flavianoep]

That's only because the definition was crated by typical people.

Better

[Anonymous Coward]

Ha! 21.9? I scored 38. It's going straight on my resume : "73% more autistic than your average engineer".

Re:Better

[pla]

Careful - Just like with the Balmer Peak, too much doesn't always mean "better".

You probably want to shoot for the high 20s or low 30s... Antisocial enough not to waste time chatting about stupid shit, but still able to effectively collaborate with others (when absolutely necessary).

What about people who don't have autism?

[LaurenCates]

No, seriously.

There's this speed these days to which people are labeled "autistic" when really it could just be that there's no underlying medical condition. It could be some people are just maladjusted.

At least, that's what it was when I was a kid.

I've said this before in this space (not looking for pity, just kind of a contrast), I was raised in an abusive environment that was detrimental to my ability to interact with people. I also just happened to have the right skill set to be able to get an engineering degree. No therapist in the number I've seen over the years has ever even so much as suggested to me that I might be autistic.

Other people haven't been exposed to circumstances like mine; they may just be introverts that aren't quite sure how to ask people how to interact with people so their unknown-unknown is "hey, there's a gap between their behavior and mine, but I don't know how to change things".

Now, I know that people who do these kinds of studies are well-intentioned (in a "gee that's sort of neat that it happens like that" way), but thing is, that's when the media looking for a story runs with it, and the meme becomes a tool used for labeling people and putting them in little intersectional boxes so that we can add words to the coded vocabularies of privilege and identity and whatnot that gets in the way of getting work done, because we need to cater to all of these little labels and associated feelings and other blah-blah.

But at the end of the day, who's getting the work done? I bet most of you that need to get stuff done in a day rarely even think about stuff like this because it's not part of your job to think about it. It's not relevant, and it taking time and energy away from what you feel is part of the discussion about your actual job.

TL;DR: Who the fuck cares? Be autistic on your own fucking time.

Re:What about people who don't have autism?

[Anonymous Coward]

I had a similar experience, in that I was super anti-social and "autistic" (read: shy with bad social skills) when I was younger. Eventually you just have to get over yourself and learn to communicate with other people. Either work will force you to, or a desire to get laid, or just have some damn fun, but eventually you will just have to learn how to get a long with others. Most people with bad social skills are very self-centered and think that they are so special that they don't have to learn to interact politely with others. Do you really think you're such a special genius that manners are for "others" and not you? The ultimate irony is how spergy techs hate Steve Jobs for being such a dick to everyone, but guess what, that's what you're like every day, except the difference is you didn't invent the iphone! You're not a special snowflake, there are a million "normies" in India who can do you job just as well as you can.

Re: What about people who don't have autism?

[Anonymous Coward]

You have no idea what you are talking about. Nobody ever 'was' autistic and got over it. You weren't autistic - you just didn't get enough social practice, until you did, then you were fine. I'm 36 and I do pretty well at holding it together outwardly these days, but i still feel every bit as detached, anxious and gnawed at by crippling fear that at any moment my very hard practiced social algorithms will miscalculate and i will turn from normal guy to pariah with one spoken sentence. I spend days or even weeks reviewing every social interaction i have, looking for anything i may have said or done that was too weird, or that may have offended or hurt somebody's feelings. I have never once in my entire life experienced one second of empathy for another person, even those that i love (for what that word means to me). That is just 'on the spectrum' autism as they say, not even to the point that i would call a disorder. You, you were just a pussy as a kid. Don't pretend you dipped your toes in this pool and now you get it.

Oh, and by the by the way I am a special goddamn snowflake. I'm the guy who is retained and paid ever more money and made principal engineer while the company is bought 3 times and the rest of the workforce does indeed get farmed offshore. I have weekly sessions where every project brings me their weird, hard to debug issues in code i don't know and i fix it, you know, all like Rain Man and shit. I give talks at annual industry conferences about the emerging developments in a field of software that i created. I am indispensible. Some people actually are, you know. Not everybody is as mediocre as you. Your idiotic notion that everybody is interchangeable belies the fact that you are most definitely one person that is.

Re: What about people who don't have autism?

[Anonymous Coward]

Get a load of this fucking post. This is why there are no women in STEM.

Re: What about people who don't have autism?

[Anonymous Coward]

Your company has been bought three times and you're still a code monkey fixing bugs, and not in management? Man, you must really suck. Anyways, you still can't get laid, which indicates nature has not deemed your defective DNA worth reproducing. Have fun rotting in the genetic dustbin of history, nerd.

Re: What about people who don't have autism?

[Anonymous Coward]

You seem to have wandered in here from People.com somehow.

You do realize that Principal Engineer kicks the fuck out of management (aka. never really wanted to do this field anyway, so now I'll just watch other people do it), both in terms of awesome and $$$? Ah yes, every scientist awaits the day when he is scooped from his life's work and elevated to the glorious position of...manager.

And calling somebody 'nerd' on slashdot. Is your name Ogre?

PS: my son is doing very well thank you.

Re: What about people who don't have autism?

[Anonymous Coward]

Then you're not "autistic", you're just a tactless jackass with shitty social skills.

Re: What about people who don't have autism?

[Anonymous Coward]

Little from column A, little from column B.

I'd take either over being so fucking dumb I can't understand the not-so-subtle gradients between "seeing math as colors and screaming when touched" and "having some very real core brain function deficiencies but learning to compensate using cognitive faculties".

And seriously, we've all had enough go rounds on the internets to know that when it comes to hurling non sequitur accusations of virginhood, he who smelt it...

Re: What about people who don't have autism?

[Anonymous Coward]

My office is about 60/40. I've often wondered about this problem everyone keeps talking about, and my observations are twofold:

1) Our women (and men, really) mostly come from doctoral programs in EE, Math and/or Physics

2) We make big boy software that requires / facilitates all of these fields. We are not the CS equivalent of a Malaysian sweatshop making phone apps or trying to figure out the next ad delivery platform. Dead wood implodes here on it's own accord in short order

Conclusion: Form my perspective, women are getting into STEM just fine, they are just better at putting in the work and choosing where to do it than, well you apparently.

Re:High correlation between nerotypical and slacke

[Greystripe]

Another way of looking at it is "anecdotal evidence" is something that looks like evidence but may or may not be actual evidence.

Re:High correlation between nerotypical and slacke

[Anonymous Coward]

Haven't you just described the (current) Republitard party?

OK massive vaccination needed ...

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

... to create a large STEM work force ...

Extract cranium from rectum

[Anonymous Coward]

Could it be that there's already a high percentage of people with assburgers in these jobs?

(aspergers intentionally misspelled. Cause if I'm stupid enough to misspell and i can still see the obvious, then where does that put these researchers that can't? They are dum! D-U-M dum!)

First part of the article

[codeButcher]

I think it may be important to draw attention to the first paragraph in the article (yeah right, who reads it anyway?):

Autistic traits are not the same as having a diagnosis of autism

As well as:

It is important to underline that it is not diagnostic. A high score alone is not a reason to seek help.

Re:First part of the article

[codeButcher]

Also, when you do the test, a score of 0-29 is labeled with No autism, 30 - 33 = Possible autism, 34 & up = Autism likely.

It seems the scores of around 22 for men and 19 for women are much ado about nothing. Both those still fall squarely in the "No autism" range.

Re:First part of the article

[jaklode]

I scored 46

Re:First part of the article

[tnk1]

Well, no one is suggesting that the average tested person is autistic, the point was to show that the sample has a higher score on average.

In other words, the bell curve as a whole is shifted more towards the autistic range for males. There are still more "non-autistic" males than "autistic" males, but the number of individuals in the autistic range is going to be higher for males than females.

If you look at the actual diagrams in the article, it shows what looks to me like a fairly standard bell curve for the males (shifted towards a higher AQ), but the female curve is not only shifted, but *tilted* towards a lower AQ score, which looks odd to me, and **actually seems to imply there are even fewer females with higher AQ score than the mean would suggest.**

That same tilt is evident in the non-STEM curve when STEM and non-STEM are compared.

The grouping of females in this tilted graph feels to me like perhaps there is another variable that keeps females who would otherwise be higher on a normal bell curve from passing a certain point and causing them to bunch up at a lower mean score than the males. What this could be can only be speculation on my part, but some sort of extra "training" or inclination for females on how to answer certain questions in a "non-autistic" manner might be an explanation. I would look for questions on the AQ test where it is likely that females might answer differently than males based on common societal expectations that differ between genders. There may be questions on such a test that females would not answer as truthfully as males would, for instance.

It may be interesting to run such a test in places with different cultures particularly those where societal gender roles are more or less pronounced than in the UK.

Re:High correlation between nerotypical and slacke

[Anonymous Coward]

What Is NT?

Neurotypical syndrome is a neurobiological disorder characterized by preoccupation with social concerns, delusions of superiority, and obsession with conformity.

Neurotypical individuals often assume that their experience of the world is either the only one, or the only correct one. NTs find it difficult to be alone. NTs are often intolerant of seemingly minor differences in others. When in groups NTs are socially and behaviorally rigid, and frequently insist upon the performance of dysfunctional, destructive, and even impossible rituals as a way of maintaining group identity. NTs find it difficult to communicate directly, and have a much higher incidence of lying as compared to persons on the autistic spectrum.

NT is believed to be genetic in origin. Autopsies have shown the brain of the neurotypical is typically smaller than that of an autistic individual and may have overdeveloped areas related to social behavior.

Help find a cure!
http://isnt.autistics.org/

You just described all politicians.

Re:High correlation between nerotypical and slacke

[Anonymous Coward]

ITT: a whole lot of people missing the point. That site is hilarious.

Nerd != austistic

[RogueWarrior65]

Sorry, but being a nerd with all the social awkwardness that comes with it does not make one autistic.

Re:Nerd != austistic

[Anonymous Coward]

That's fine, but it's still something. Want to tell us what to call it ? Generally, "Nerds" do not think normally, are bad socially, and are better at logic, "normals" (I'm not going into what that means) think normal, are good socially, and are not as good at logic.

Is this sexism ? Elitism ? Nature? Nurture ? I actually don't give a shit. Social justice warriors can keep trying to solve it on the backs of the things all of us nerds built for you to solve it (internet, social media, etc, etc). Just stop demonizing boys that grew up wanting to solve puzzles.

Re:Nerd != austistic

[PPH]

"normals" think normal, are good socially, and are not as good at logic.

Or "normals" (socially well adjusted people) who are also god at logic hide it. Because many of the social niceties that define "normal" lead to organizational inefficiencies.

Social justice warriors can keep trying to solve it

Because the definition of "social justice" is quite often undermined by work that the geeks do. For years, the SJW battle cry was that men and women are created equally. And studies attempting to show otherwise were shut down at the funding committee level. And then people started to slip research in sideways. Or found things by serendipity while looking for something else. Like brain differences between men and women shown on fMRIs. Or correlations discovered by examining huge corpus of posted text that reveal fundamental differences in male/female (and gay/straight) writing styles sufficient to categorize people with a fair level of accuracy.

All of the above is labeled as "not normal" by the SJWs because it interferes with their agenda. Not that their agenda is completely wrong. Let people try to achieve what they want without having to fight stereotypes. But the science says that women will e less likely to succeed the Army Rangers training program. And overall, that's the smart way to bet. "Normals" will understand this, but not rub people's noses in the differences for the sake of social harmony.

Workplace fascism

[PopeRatzo]

Huge Survey Shows Correlation Between Autistic Traits and STEM Jobs

Just think how great it would be for corporations if they could convince people that suffering is a desirable trait?

The "work ethic" will only take you so far. If you really want complaint slaves, you have to convince people that pain is good for you.

Re:Workplace fascism

[TarPitt]

Just think how great it would be for corporations if they could convince people that suffering is a desirable trait?

Been done already. Worked fine for almost 2,000 years. It's called "Roman Catholicism".

Re:Workplace fascism

[Locke2005]

To true to be funny. "Suffer the children." In my view, one of the major malfunctions of the Catholic Church is that they consider suffering in and of itself a virtue, and by all appearances, they seem to be promoting suffering. This is a misinterpretation of the message of Christ, which is that suffering is a good thing if and only it accomplishes a net good that exceeds the suffering itself, i.e. the sacrifice of one man for the salvation of all believers. In nerd terms, “Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.” "Or the one."

Re:Workplace fascism

[thesandtiger]

That's already been well done. Just look at any thread here where people swarm to defend people being assholes by telling anyone who doesn't like dealing with assholes to toughen up.

Re:Workplace fascism

[PopeRatzo]

In my view, one of the major malfunctions of the Catholic Church is that they consider suffering in and of itself a virtue

Not just the Catholic church. The Calvinists and the Puritans have also done a number on everyone with the "Protestant work ethic". It's the "no pain, no gain" mentality that makes people live miserable lives.

Re:Workplace fascism

[Anonymous Coward]

that is religions job!

does aspergers give me an excuse then?

[peter303]

So there may be a biological reason for my introversion and social awkwardness. Does that mean I should give up improving myself to fit in better? Many of us can improve with enough effort and motivation. Some cannot.

Re:does aspergers give me an excuse then?

[Anonymous Coward]

What is the value in "fitting in better"? Is it really an "improvement" of one's self to be able to communicate in vapid, meaningless "small talk" with the hoi polloi? Aside from a possible increase in mating opportunities, there is rarely any tangible benefit. No, clearly, this is the wrong tack. One should utilize his or her superior intellect to attain great wealth, then use that wealth to signal their suitability as a mate to improve both the quantity of mating opportunities and the quality of the mates (not having to settle as much).

Re:does aspergers give me an excuse then?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not at all. In fact, the more types of social interactions and settings you expose yourself to, with mild autism (aspergers) you can even learn to excel beyond "the average" NT person.

The big difference though, will be that, for you, social interactions is a means to work with what you are interested in or, hopefully, love even. For many NT people, social interactions is a way to connect with other human beings, and often is just an end in itself.

But, even if you do manage to somehow raise in ranks and influence, there's no covering the fact that the more you socially interact, the more burned out you eventually will become. If not, you don't really have autism, but are extrovert. By this definition alone, this is a real disability that will both put limits to what you can achieve / want to do, as well as a channel to do what other's don't want to do or simply can't.

Re:does aspergers give me an excuse then?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think I've ever heard of a condition that couldn't be improved (except "can't cure dead!") - that's not the point of any of this. Always try to be your best self. What that means is debatable.

Re:does aspergers give me an excuse then?

[Anonymous Coward]

The funny thing is the autistic rejects that always complain about "vapid small talk" have no aesthetic sensibilities and a pathetic understanding of philosophy and history. Arguing about which web server is better is just as vapid as talking about which baseball team is better. In another 100 years, never mind 1000 years, it's not going to matter a damn.

Re:does aspergers give me an excuse then?

[trout007]

Whoo-hoo-hoo, look who knows so much. It just so happens that your friend here is only MOSTLY dead. There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive. With all dead, well, with all dead there's usually only one thing you can do.

Re:does aspergers give me an excuse then?

[Cederic]

for you, social interactions is a means to work with what you are interested in or, hopefully, love even

Um. No. A lot of people with ASD really like other people, really want to spend time with them, really want to interact with them.

They may just not be any good at it.

I don't avoid people because I have no interest in them, I avoid them because..

t the more you socially interact, the more burned out you eventually will become

I need downtime. I enjoy quiet and solitude. I also enjoy being with friends. As I get older I get better at balancing all of these conflicts.

Re:High correlation between nerotypical and slacke

[trout007]

And they say autistics don't get sarcasm.

450,000 participants

[Bruce66423]

That really IS enough to iron out any random factors, meaning that the male / female difference is a real effect. Whether it is significant is a different debate, but it's at least proved what the anecdotes have long suggested.

Re:High correlation between nerotypical and slacke

[Anonymous Coward]

NT individuals are livestock for sociopaths.

Duh! NEWS FLASH!

[Anonymous Coward]

People who have a hard time dealing with people stink at sales or other people-facing jobs and seek jobs where they don't have to deal with people as their primary function!

Just as autism rises, STEM jobs evaporate

[ErichTheRed]

Great job, captains of industry...way to read the trends! Just as autism/ASD starts swinging up, suitable employment for these people gets offshored/marginalized. Can't wait to see the revolution brought about by millions of angry people without social graces...just kidding.

Seriously, I do see this as a problem. I don't know if ASD is overdiagnosed, but I do know that there are still people (like me) who are "normal" but not outgoing, don't like group/collaborative work, and would rather spend time solving hard problems than "networking." Not even 30 years ago, there were plenty of jobs for this personality type. Companies valued scientists and engineers, now they just see them as disposable necessities. I just don't see the need for the constant push to make everyone a social animal. I have no desire to be a project manager, salesman or motivational speaker - why is that held out as the only successful path forward?

From a psychopath perspective, you would think companies would be happy to have ASD employees. It's not polite to say, but some can really be taken advantage of due to the lack of social skills. Think of all the software developers who willingly work 100 hour weeks because their boss knows they won't complain. I know some will disagree with me, but I think that's one of the major reasons IT and developers won't organize and turn the job into a profession - dislike of group association, feeling they're superior to everyone they would associate with, etc.

I have a while with my 2 kids; they're just starting school. However, if things continue I can't recommend a STEM job if it turns out they're smart. I'd rather see them kick ass in school, earn their way into the Ivy League club and coast. It's way easier to be an idiot investment banker or management consultant than it is a scientist or engineer. I'd only tell them to pursue STEM if it was clear they had a true gift and could be one of the few people who make a successful life out of it.

Re:Just as autism rises, STEM jobs evaporate

[unimacs]

The jobs that are disappearing are the ones that can be automated or the ones that easily be done cheaper by someone else half way around the world for pennies on the dollar. The jobs that are harder to automate or outsource are the ones that will be available. Jobs requiring lots of social skills are hard to automate and hard to offshore.

Still, I don't know that scientists or engineers as a group are any less valued than any other worker but there has been a change in the last few decades over by how we measure the success of companies. It used to be that layoffs of any sort were a last resort of a failing company. Now healthy and growing companies layoff people all the time. We are all disposable.

It's

[Anonymous Coward]

assbugers

Re:High correlation between nerotypical and slacke

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you for the link.

It's called the Barnum Effect.

[Qbertino]

I got chills reading that. That's one of the most accurate descriptions I think I've ever read.

The description fits me very good aswell.
I'd bet it fits about 95% of the population

It's called the Barnum Effect.

Odd way to collect data

[tomhath]

The "survey" was done by inviting viewers of a TV program about Aspbergers and Autism to visit their website and take the test:

Why not go onto our website and take the My MindChecker test to measure the extent of any autistic traits you might have, and whilst your results are confidential, the overall data will form the biggest national survey of its kind.

No chance of their data being biased in that survey...

19.83 was the mean. 32 is (kinda) reliable cut-off

[denzacar]

Raw AQ distribution

From the data (n = 450,394), the reported mean AQ score was 19.83 (SD = 8.71), and tests of normality (Kolmogorov-Smirnov and Anderson-Darling) revealed this data had a positive skew of 0.47 and a kurtosis of -0.27.

http://journals.plos.org/ploso...

Further... STEM or no-STEM means about... the diddly part of the diddly squat.

When sex, age, and occupation are entered into a multiple linear regression model, less than 4% of the variance in AQ in the current sample is explained, indicating that other unmeasured variables contribute to autistic traits as measured by the AQ.

I.e. IF we are to take this study at face value - there is no significant difference between sex, age or occupation.

On the other hand...
It was an anonymous online-survey.
Of people who have just seen a documentary on autism.
Who were then invited to take the BIGGEST TEST EVER.

In the episode, the TV presenters (both medical doctors) introduced the topic of autism by giving population prevalence estimates, and explained that many individuals in the general population have autistic traits.
They invited viewers by saying, "Why not go onto our website and take the My MindChecker test to measure the extent of any autistic traits you might have, and whilst your results are confidential, the overall data will form the biggest national survey of its kind."
The program continued by explaining the symptoms of autism: difficulty with social interaction, trouble understanding aspects of humour such as sarcasm, feelings of anxiety associated with sensory stimulation, and intense special interests and hobbies.
The presenters concluded, "If you are experiencing similar symptoms [...] and want to find out if you have a condition that affects how you interact with the world and other people, then take part now in our self test."
The link to the data collection site was displayed at the outset of the autism segment and at intervals throughout the episode.
The presenters announced approximately 30 minutes after the initial mention of the website that 40,000 individuals had already completed the survey.

BTW, do you suffer headaches? Are you frequently tired? Do you forget things?
You might be having A DISEASE - take our test to find out.
COME ON! Everyone else is doing it!

Oh... and then there's the test.
Which, at it's higher specificity and reliability level, WHEN ADMINISTERED on people already referred to an autism clinic (i.e. someone with a degree in mental health sent them to be checked for autism) - guessed right in 3 out of 4 cases.
And it doesn't work for lower IQ individuals. Online test had no such limitation. All you had to do is click links.

A "drinking bird" would probably score slightly above average.

at a cut-off score of 26, 83% of people referred to an adult autism clinic were correctly identified (sensitivity 0.95, specificity 0.52, positive predictive value 0.84, negative predictive value 0.78), while a cut-off score of 32 was found to correctly identify 76% of people (sensitivity 0.77, specificity 0.74) [3].
The AQ was designed for adults with average IQ or above [1], so is suitable for use in the general population and for at least 50% of people on the autism spectrum [24].
The questionnaire is not suitable for individuals with low IQ or language impairment, as it relies on the comprehension of the 50 questions.

Double Bull

[Tablizer]

Non-STEM people just can't concentrate because they have the attention span of a gnat, that's why they call the thinkers autistic.

Hogwash. Non-STEM generally pay more attention to social cues and "people issues". Us geeks have an "attention span" problem with regard to people. We often are not aware of this because, well, we are not aware of this.

Watch the faces of clothing shoppers; some are very attentive to their shopping task. They are weighing many issues in their mind.

The bottom line is the "regular" people are more interested in people issues and STEM people are more interested in machines, puzzles, and symbols. Each is bored by different things. (Yes, there are exceptions to the rule.)

The real question: Is ASD really a disorder?

[Qbertino]

Makes me wonder how long it's worth continuing to live, if it's just going to get worse from here.

Well there, let's just not get all worked up about this.

The question to me is wether ASD is really a disorder or rather a preposition that makes a person optimal for certain tasks and not good at others.

It is also measurably common that people who are more intelligent than the average are considered having an ASD, although they're just being less stupid and mundane than the people around them. The problem being that smart people look like crazy people to dumb people.

I favour this theory of genetic preposition. There are things such as abstract thinking, grasping meta-concepts, solving hard problems, not backing down from a fight, seeing beyond the general populations everyday horizon, etc. that 95% of the population would utterly despair at. People who come into my office have their skin crawling in just about sheer horror when they see my screens littered with code, editor and terminal windows ... I'm just about the sole IT guy in a marketing agency - go figure. It's extremely alien to them.

They also think I'm a weirdo because I rather read stoic philosophy or go tango dancing than get drunk on a saturday night. I, however, see no point whatsoever in going into Duesseldorfs cramped and hideously expensive old town to get loaded while loosing 50 euros or more a night. The girls think it's peculiar that I turn a date into an artful celebration and think I'm some romantic weirdo - which I am - but they *do* dig it once they get what I'm up to. Very much, AFAICT.

Likewise I don't get why anyone would rag on about someone behind his back and not be able to be straightforward when the person is around. I consider it cowardice. I do lie in social situations, just not as often as others. I'd rather be frank and straighforward - even if people think I'm a weirdo and awkward that way and it makes them uncomfortable. I love and crave to be popular, but I value knowlege and skill and honest over popularity in quite a few situations. Paul Graham was spot on about this.

I'd rather make a splash and be noticed than go unseen - which is more often than it is good for me - admitted.
I also like to debate - more often than people around me - which does make me annoying at times.

Does that make me an ASD candidate - D as in "disorder"? I think not. I'm more predisposed to being a leader, innovator, bum or terrorist than a "regular guy" - which makes me exciting, interesting but sometimes also more stenuous to be around. Why bum? Just like many of 'us' I'd rather do nothing or slack off in front of my console that do something I consider utterly pointless. Why terrorist? ... Push me far enough and I'll value my ideas about how society should be more that the people around me - one of the prime traits of those people.

I'm a hunter / gatherer / pathfinder in a society with a large majority of settlers & farmers and every patch of land mapped out and explored already. ... Which is why I'm into computers, art and other frontiers.

There is so much going wrong in our society, and a lot has to do with broken social traditions and superstition that someone who's diagnosed with "mild ASD" or whatever might just actually be the more healthy person. Elon Musk is a stutterer who can't finish a sentance without tons of ums and ahs and his muttering is difficult to understand at times - no way would I dare call im disordered. He's probably irritated that he has to explain the most fundamental underpinnings of his motivation again and again. AFAICT the man is a freaking genius - and just because he'd rather give away his patents to save the planet that rake in tons of short-term cash doesn't make him a freak - it makes him a healthy person with a very high moral standard.

Bottom Line:

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." - Jiddu Krishnamurti

I couldn't say it any better.

Re:The real question: Is ASD really a disorder?

[KGIII]

I had the fortune of attending school with a few people we called "Idiot Savants" and, then, "Savants." There was no ASD classification, at the time, as far as I know. I'm not a psychologist but I wonder if there's some correlation betwixt the two. A matter of severity, if you will?

Re:The real question: Is ASD really a disorder?

[Anonymous Coward]

Now they'd probably fall in the category of "high functioning autistics"

Re:The real question: Is ASD really a disorder?

[KGIII]

The ones I'm familiar with weren't really all that high functioning. One, in specific, would rock back and forth and sing quietly to himself when he was around people he didn't know or like. However, you could rattle numbers off at him and he'd do the math faster than the person next to him could do it on a calculator. Another one was slightly different, again math, but he was more functional and working as a post grad in the electrical engineering section. There were more but those two stick in my mind the most. The latter would not talk to most anyone - he'd write notes and not look at you. He stayed on campus and they had someone help him to and from his room and whatnot but he was slightly more functional than the former.

Re:The real question: Is ASD really a disorder?

[tehcyder]

I'm a hunter / gatherer / pathfinder in a society with a large majority of settlers & farmers and every patch of land mapped out and explored already. ... Which is why I'm into computers, art and other frontiers.

Yeah, blah blah, you're a special sparkly wolf and the rest of us are sheeple.

Really?

[Anonymous Coward]

So, most geeks are Azzburgers. Nothing new.

A survey does not science make

[Anonymous Coward]

If people could stop acting like a single study, survey or thing pulled out of someone's ass actually means anything, that would be great. My survey of bobcats indicates that 100% of bobcats eat donuts thrown at them by children. What does that say about bobcats? Nothing. Not a damned thing. That's not how you science, even on the interwebs.

Next in "things everyone knew"

[Anonymous Coward]

Cats and dogs don't typically get along.

Research grant: $50,000,000

H1B visa

[ajzimm3rman]

The Indians they're importing must all be very autistic then.

Re:H1B visa

[Locke2005]

The ones that aren't flat out lying on their resumes, yes.

Re:High correlation between nerotypical and slacke

[Anonymous Coward]

Besides , a syndrome by definition is a-typical. Defining the typical as a syndrome robs the word of any meaning whatsoever.

By that definition all Humans are a-typical for not being insects. Humanity is defined as intellect alone, NTs are genuinely less Human and therefore are a-typical.

This is considered news?

[Locke2005]

Of course engineers are more likely to be autistic. In fact, it was observed years ago that autism rates are way up in the Silicon Valley, which is explained quite simply by the fact that engineers are interbreeding! As a software engineer, do I consider myself more autistic than average? Yes. Does Bill Gates exhibit symptoms of autism? Absolutely. If you're a slashdot reader, you probably score higher than average on an autism test.

Re:High correlation between nerotypical and slacke

[kheldan]

NTs are often intolerant of seemingly minor differences in others. When in groups NTs are socially and behaviorally rigid, and frequently insist upon the performance of dysfunctional, destructive, and even impossible rituals as a way of maintaining group identity.

While I recognize the sarcastic humor in this (even without seeing the site mentioned; it's taking a geologic age to load for some reason) there is a shred of truth in what you're saying, but there is an older and more obvious reason for this sort of behavior: FEAR. The average person is horribly insecure, and cares way too much about what other people think of them, to the point of it dictating their choices in life. Peer pressure is probably one of the most destructive things that human beings do to each other, and it has a chilling effect on creativity in general.

second job

[Anonymous Coward]

Glad I got that second job as a dishwasher

Re:High correlation between nerotypical and slacke

[Anonymous Coward]

"groups are much stronger than individuals when it comes to conquering and defending resources. And building social groups takes political and social skills."

You do know you live in a society of morons who threaten their own survival? The politics of earth is a naked war for power and resources, how you can call all these people intelligent? The same goes for the corporate world and politicians that reject climate change.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/22/us/ties-to-corporate-cash-for-climate-change-researcher-Wei-Hock-Soon.html?_r=0

Re:High correlation between nerotypical and slacke

[Anonymous Coward]

The plural of anecdote is not evidence.

No its anecdotes, but even one anecdote is evidence, if only of its own existence.

Re:High correlation between nerotypical and slacke

[Anonymous Coward]

Another way of looking at it is "anecdotal evidence" is something that looks like evidence but may or may not be actual evidence.

Which can be true of most stuff presented as evidence. There's lies, damn lies & statistics.

Self selection bias

[robertchin]

How does this study not suffer from self selection bias? I looked at the study but didn't find the answer. Presumably they would have addressed this given that it is peer reviewed.

Re:High correlation between nerotypical and slacke

[Anonymous Coward]

So basically what you're saying is, "when everyone's syndrome, no one will be"?

Also in the news

[Anonymous Coward]

Scientists say water is wet - film at 11:00!

Reality is back?

[Anonymous Coward]

This suggests autistic traits are linked to both sex and to having a ‘systems-thinking’ mind.

Has sanity finally returned to this godforsaken planet, and we can admit many differences are due to genetics? Or that's only when talking about defects on nerds, and everything else is still because of "culture", "poverty" and "patriarchy"?

Explaining ASD - CS Aptitudes

[Anonymous Coward]

I have ASD, and over the last few decades I have analyzed the shit out of it as it plays out in my head, as one with ASD is wont to do. I came to an interesting theory on the whole pattern / information handling thing - namely that it and the social issues are both emergent conditions from the root cause of ASD, not the original conditions.

I believe that the actual root cause of ASD is singular and easily stated: A total lack of empathy. I have never for one second felt a person's pain, anxiety, anger etc. I want to, I feel guilty that I don't, but I don't, and that's just it. I just don't feel for (or more accurately from) other people.

It's kind of obvious how you get from here to poor social interactions, but the process starts long before that, I think in very early development (I was apparently an eerily quiet baby). Having no intuitive understanding of emotion means something even when you are that young, long before you are 'social'. The brain knows there is a missing faculty, and just like in any number of other cases where it has been known to do so, it uses it's plasticity to shift functions to undamaged areas. Are those areas as good at it as the missing one? Nope. So we stay weird, but interesting stuff happens in the selected area(s).

Which areas does the brain choose to give double duty? Well I think it differs a bit, but it is clearly going to be areas that process information. That's what we are trying to do - figure out what all this external emotional information means. Whatever areas are elected, that shit gets overclocked like crazy. This occurs at a cost to other general areas that otherwise would have built up what we call 'common sense'. This is where you get to the idea of the autistic genius who can't manage to dress himself in matching shoes or comb his hair - it all got de-prioritized during this major shift of functions. I'm pretty smart in some ways, like a helpless child in others.

Naturally the first place to start beefing up is sensory information processing areas. ASD folk are very commonly hyper-sensitive in one or all of the senses. Sometimes emotional information comes in audio, so maybe if we just jack up the gain we'll understand it right? So the brain turns everything up to 11, but we are still not really understanding emotions properly. Time to move to higher level areas of processing. For some that turns into musical savant-ism. I tried music and I was shit at it, so clearly it's not always the exact same faculty being used. For me it was spatial reasoning, idea abstraction and pattern recognition. I used to sit silently not moving with my toys for hours, because I had just used them as a jumping off point for some train of thought adventure that was running in my head.

So now here I am, an adult with ridiculously over-cranked facilities for a few things that for the most part get in the way of a 'normal' life. Loud noises cause me physical pain. I have some grotesquely inappropriate responses in unfamiliar social situations. My wife now knows that when she talks and I look at our concrete floor, that I am looking for a certain sequence of color variations so I can fixate on how it almost looks like a Mandelbrot set. She does not care for it. No matter how many times I sit in the same meeting rooms I cannot focus on the meeting until I have categorized the ceiling tiles by orientation and hole pattern.

Then there are the good things. I'm a bang-up chef because my sense of taste feels like I an licking individual atoms. I can get the baby at 3 AM before my wife even stirs. And, I can design the shit out of some immensely complicated software systems.

TL;DR;

It's a real thing guys. Decry the study, hate the weird nerds, call ASD fake, whatever. Not going to change the fact that the guy/girl who has had an experience like mine is hardware-accelerated to be good at something, and if that something is the job you both do he/she is probably able to do it in circles around you. Never fear though, because they are also highly likely to trip on their own untied shoelace in the process.

One woman's disability is another man's ability.

[dsmatthews9379]

Perhaps we should all just grow up and admit that it takes all types to do all the jobs that exist and we are not all equal, we only have equal rights, therefore when one group dominates a specific field it is just a sign of competition and specialisation. And on a related note of irony autistic men can probably thank their mothers for the atypical chromosome configuration that makes them so much more suited to STEM type pursuits, in the same way that woman can thank their mother for a lower chance of having mental retardation when compared to their brother. Natural selection favours reliable females and expendable males, males who it can experiment with in turns of cognitive configurations. i.e. Male genius is the bonus a lucky few get from the greater risk of them being born with a cognitive disability.

Re:High correlation between nerotypical and slacke

[Anonymous Coward]

performance of dysfunctional, destructive, and even impossible rituals as a way of maintaining group identity.

Sounds a lot like organized religion. Which is a pretty lucrative business. So I'd guess that it's another niche adaptation, like ASD.

A more on topic XKCD

[MarbleMunkey]

https://xkcd.com/538/