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Huge Survey Shows Correlation Between Autistic Traits and STEM Jobs (cam.ac.uk)
Bruce66423 writes: A survey of more than 450,000 people in the UK has shown there is a significant correlation between a higher score on the Autism Quotient and being a scientist or engineer. AQ scores are also higher for men than for women. "On average, the male AQ score was 21.6, compared to a female score of 19.0. People work in a STEM-related job had an average AQ score of 21.9 compared to a score of 18.9 for individuals working in non-STEM jobs. This suggests autistic traits are linked to both sex and to having a ‘systems-thinking’ mind." A professor involved with the work said, "These may shed light on why we find males in the population on average have slightly more autistic traits than females do, and why fathers and grandfathers of children with autism are over-represented in STEM fields."
Men shape the world so that they can earn more money. I demand equal access to autism for women!
Why does the mainstream society try so hard to cure human evolution?
Someone actually did a a study to scientifically confirm what mountains of anectodes strongly suggested? Impressive.
3 clicks before you hit paywall behind which are details of the survey instrument
work in progress
I would much rather we classify conditions such as autism by the extent that someone is unable to lead a full and prosperous life. Rather than get all tangled up with low-level biases that may or may not say something about the disability. All this study really shows is that personality types are attracted to certain jobs. It does not advance our knowledge of autism. What would have been really interesting is whether there is a change in score over time as people enter various careers - to more autistic traits emerge in people who code for a living.
What Is NT?
Neurotypical syndrome is a neurobiological disorder characterized by preoccupation with social concerns, delusions of superiority, and obsession with conformity.
Neurotypical individuals often assume that their experience of the world is either the only one, or the only correct one. NTs find it difficult to be alone. NTs are often intolerant of seemingly minor differences in others. When in groups NTs are socially and behaviorally rigid, and frequently insist upon the performance of dysfunctional, destructive, and even impossible rituals as a way of maintaining group identity. NTs find it difficult to communicate directly, and have a much higher incidence of lying as compared to persons on the autistic spectrum.
NT is believed to be genetic in origin. Autopsies have shown the brain of the neurotypical is typically smaller than that of an autistic individual and may have overdeveloped areas related to social behavior.
Help find a cure!
http://isnt.autistics.org/
I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
SCIENCE CAUSES AUTISM. No wonder with all those chemicals in it.
Correlation does not necessarily mean causation. That doesn't mean that there is never a relationship. That'd be fucking stupid.
I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
http://assets.amuniversal.com/...
W the brain of the neurotypical is typically smaller than that of an autistic individual
Both of which are one-fifth the size of a sperm whale brain. Got a point to make there or..?
I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
I know you are being sarcastic, but there is a large amount of anecdotal evidence that NT is an actual syndrome.
Linux is for people who don't mind RTFM.
Non-STEM people just can't concentrate because they have the attention span of a gnat, that's why they call the thinkers autistic.
The plural of anecdote is not evidence.
Besides , a syndrome by definition is a-typical. Defining the typical as a syndrome robs the word of any meaning whatsoever.
I love it! Wish I had mod points today...
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
Autism is just a preference for being alone from the Greek autos.
Low IQ has little to do with Autism. There are low IQ people that aren't autistic with all of the same issues.
I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
Apparently whether correlation is very high or just statistically significant , it will always be reported as a correlation. Furthermore, while autism started out with some cliche cases gradually more and more cases occurred where people said 'we can't really call this autism so we'll call it autism spectrum then'. So you have this standardized test that checks for 'autism traits'. You know what it means? It measures how bad you are in human interaction and how good you are in understanding things and patterns. So yeah, I would expect scientists to score higher there.
What I would like to know is, what is the value of this research and why is it being funded?
A "huge survey showing correlation" is pretty much the plural of "anecdote" for large values of plurality.
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
If STEM favorize hiring autism spectrum disorder (high AQ) , since there are more men than women having ASD, it is then not a question of sexism as many pretend but at least partially just plain biology ?
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
Definitely a STEM worker. I'm an excellent STEM worker.
Left MS Windows for Linux Mint and never looked back!
Vote for Bernie in 2016!
So, apparently being the type of Person that can get all worked up in sich issues sich as IP4 vs. IP6 or String Theory makes you good IT Person or Cosmologist/Physicist respectively.
Next up: A study that proves girly, exalted and hysteric types are into fashion and sometimes really good at it.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
It seems that what is missed here is the power of labels. Whatever "Autism" is has always been around. Now that we've named it we can market products and services to those who have, or believe they have it. We can "build community" around it because now that it has a label, people take comfort in being able to name their "oppressor" and have 5k walks for it and t-shirts and build "awareness" about it. What seems more accurate to me is that human beings in all societies collectively create their "normal" and anything outside that is abnormal and needs to be either corrected or ostracized.
A similar psychological method is used with pushing "change". An earlier comment about someone being a mainframe admin and then not being able to "keep up" and "be adaptable to change" offers yet another change kool-aid drinker perspective on this terrible subtle but very evil device. Some people just are not going to like your idea. Some ideas suck. It doesn't make them Neanderthals. That's just the "change" marketing people talking. You see, if you can't get people to accept constant "change" be it necessary or not then you cannot justify selling them more and more and more unnecessary bullshit. Technology is moving fast because we chose for it to move fast. It's not some natural phenomenon to which we are subject to although the brilliant marketers have much of us now believing that.
People are different. They have different attributes and characteristics. As soon as you group those characteristics and label them you have one of two motives, manipulation and/or subordination.
Indeed.
I have a cousin with a severely autistic son. He's in his early teens now but is completely incapable of any kind of social interactions and has never shown any kind of interest in any kind of intellectual activity. He mostly just sits in the middle of the floor and requires day-round care for even his most basic needs. He has occasional screaming fits (sometimes physically violent), which tend to be triggered by visitors or other events that interrupt his routine. He's never spoken a single coherent word.
He shows a basic attention reaction to a handful of external stimuli (most notably, for some reason, that godawful Donkey Kong CGI cartoon show from a decade or so ago, which will get him to focus his eyes on a TV), but that's about it.
He doesn't scrawl complex equations on the wall. He doesn't paint pictures of indescribable beauty. His intelligence, as you suggest, is impossible to measure because he simply doesn't interact with the world.
This isn't a different way of being a functioning person. It's a very severe disability. He would have a better chance of living an independent life if he were quadriplegic rather than autistic.
I've seen lots of people claim to be "a little bit autistic" as a way of excusing and enabling their own anti-social behaviours. But there's a big difference between "I don't get along well with others" and "full-blown autism".
The AQ test has questions about social interaction and obsessiveness, but you are also asked to what extent you agree with "I am fascinated by numbers". Of course you are going to find more people fascinated by numbers in STEM fields. I wonder what results you get if you weed out the questions that guarantee correlation.
Statistically significant correlations are, by definition, improbably explained as "just a coincidence". And the statement "correlation does not mean causation" doesn't mean you can dismiss all correlations as potentially a-causal; what the statement means is that a correlation between A and B does not mean that A causes B; it might also mean that B causes A, or that C causes both A and B.
In fact, the causal relationship that is implied in these studies is not that "autism" causes "STEM jobs", but that a common factor (genetics and early childhood development) causes both; the authors may not talk about it because it's so obvious to their readers. The other two hypotheses, that "autism causes STEM jobs" or "STEM jobs cause autism" are implausible to begin with ("autism causes STEM jobs" is implausible because it would mean that you could induce autism in normal adults, and then they would suddenly start taking STEM jobs.)
Yes, and the causal relationship would still be that all three are caused by a common factor, namely "genetics and early childhood development". That is, there is no causal relationship between the observed variables, but they are all caused by the same common factor.
It's about number of neurons, dude.
Long-finned pilot whale (also known as "dolphin" =)) is the only species with more neurons than humans.
I've seen lots of people claim to be "a little bit autistic" as a way of excusing and enabling their own anti-social behaviours. But there's a big difference between "I don't get along well with others" and "full-blown autism".
Indeed. It's called tha autism spectrum for a reason. My 25 year old son is moderate to severely autistic. When he was first diagnosed it was at a time when autism wasn't the "mental disease du jour". Having lived with him for this long, I can clearly see behaviors in anyone that I would consider on the spectrum, myself included. And yes, some of those characteristics would be beneficial in a STEM career. But it bothers me when people who obviously don't say, "I have autism" or "that's my autism kicking in".
True, diagnosed, full autism isn't an evolutionary advantage because 95% (guessing, but it feels right) of those people will not reproduce, my son included. My son has a good life and even has his own apartment now (heavily supervised by case workers and us), but likely the only type of job he will ever be able to hold down is grocery bagger, which he does now. To me it feels like the disease of autism grossly over-amplifies a certain set of characteristics that are present in all people - to the point where it's debilitating.
You are not autistic because you like math or because you are socially awkward...
Don't dismiss it so lightly. Humans (and primates) are social creatures for a reason. Social groups are much stronger than individuals when it comes to conquering and defending resources. And building social groups takes political and social skills. At the individual level, if you have average intelligence and strength, your best bet for successfully passing on your genes is through your social skills (that's pretty much what NT means, unless it means that other thing about women that is also helpful for passing on their genes).
Successful societies really take both kinds: socially skilled managers and organizers, as well as highly intelligent individualists and loners. The problem is that both groups don't understand each other: the former group thinks that individualists and loners are disruptive and need to be forced back into the fold, while the latter often don't see the value of cooperation.
The solution is likely not to try to design one global society that accommodates both kinds of humans (and all the other varieties there are), but to allow many different societies to co-exist and give people the freedom to choose where they want to live.
He's in his early teens now but is completely incapable of any kind of social interactions and has never shown any kind of interest in any kind of intellectual activity.
That's clearly a mental impediment/disease. The trouble is when they start saying that functioning people are autistic, because they don't interact with others very well, or they're anxious and don't have the average person's ability to naturally respond in any social situation or ability to participate in a conversation the same way as others.
If they're saying that people who are scientists and engineers that succeed in an intellectual and professional endeavor are actually autistic, due to lower than average ability to engage socially. And yeah, it might negatively affect them, but...
At what point does the latter just become a subjective derogatory judgement of people who are different? Shouldn't it be the rest of society that adjusts to better accommodate the type of people who are scientists and engineers?
I think the problem is the mental health industry needs to further narrow the definition of "Autism";
That's only because the definition was crated by typical people.
Linux is for people who don't mind RTFM.
No, seriously.
There's this speed these days to which people are labeled "autistic" when really it could just be that there's no underlying medical condition. It could be some people are just maladjusted.
At least, that's what it was when I was a kid.
I've said this before in this space (not looking for pity, just kind of a contrast), I was raised in an abusive environment that was detrimental to my ability to interact with people. I also just happened to have the right skill set to be able to get an engineering degree. No therapist in the number I've seen over the years has ever even so much as suggested to me that I might be autistic.
Other people haven't been exposed to circumstances like mine; they may just be introverts that aren't quite sure how to ask people how to interact with people so their unknown-unknown is "hey, there's a gap between their behavior and mine, but I don't know how to change things".
Now, I know that people who do these kinds of studies are well-intentioned (in a "gee that's sort of neat that it happens like that" way), but thing is, that's when the media looking for a story runs with it, and the meme becomes a tool used for labeling people and putting them in little intersectional boxes so that we can add words to the coded vocabularies of privilege and identity and whatnot that gets in the way of getting work done, because we need to cater to all of these little labels and associated feelings and other blah-blah.
But at the end of the day, who's getting the work done? I bet most of you that need to get stuff done in a day rarely even think about stuff like this because it's not part of your job to think about it. It's not relevant, and it taking time and energy away from what you feel is part of the discussion about your actual job.
TL;DR: Who the fuck cares? Be autistic on your own fucking time.
Some people don't believe in fairies. I don't believe in The Patriarchy.
Another way of looking at it is "anecdotal evidence" is something that looks like evidence but may or may not be actual evidence.
... to create a large STEM work force ...
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
Quite the opposite has been done - autism is now a spectrum that easily ranges from fully disabled to the most successful people in our society. It is a label that has been (ironically) bestowed by a system that now claims it grants some kind of special "system thinking powers". The whole thing makes no sense and is dangerous thinking for everyone's continued success and mental health (again, IMHO)
I can't speak to your friend's exact situation because each child is different. I know someone who has a daughter that was very similar to your friend for a long time. She got some special help (county provided assistance - special therapy that I am not familiar with) and eventually started talking and behaving more like you would expect a child to behave. She still acts inappropriately at times and, despite being her neighbor for many years, does not know my name. She just calls me a generic name. She will probably never be able to care for herself, but she can at least communicate her needs.
"Mental health" as it is defined by shiny happy people and effectiveness are two entirely orthogonal things. The real problem with "mental health" is that anything that isn't deemed normal by the shiny happy people is declared some sort of pathology.
"We don't suffer from mental illness, we rather enjoy it."
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
I think it may be important to draw attention to the first paragraph in the article (yeah right, who reads it anyway?):
Autistic traits are not the same as having a diagnosis of autism
As well as:
It is important to underline that it is not diagnostic. A high score alone is not a reason to seek help.
Free, as in your money being freed from the confines of your account.
In years gone by, this would have been more accurately described as severe mental retardation. Unfortunately, society has decided to abandon the term "retarded" due to perceived stigma. I feel this is unfortunate, as the term is actually quite accurate. Any term can, and in fact historically has been, co-opted to become a pejorative describing people who don't actually fall under the classification of some disability.
Many parents, faced with having a child with a severe mental deficiency, leap to "autism" as a way of internally mitigating the greater negative internal emotions that would follow a diagnosis of mental retardation. Medical professionals accommodate this psychological need of the parents, or buy into the classification themselves due to modern conditioning.
I think that as time goes on, and more knowledge is gained, diagnoses of "autism" or "Asperger's" will eventually be more limited. A huge portion currently diagnosed will be seen as just being socially awkward as youth. Anecdotally, many children in my school environment in the 70's and 80's would today be characterized as being "on the scale". They were shy, didn't make friends, and didn't know how to "get into a group". Due to the demographic nature of my town (few leave), I can say that I cannot think of one of those people who would consider themselves to be "on the scale". At different times in their lives, they got over most of their shyness, and they participate very effectively in local businesses, charity organizations, and social clubs. They may not be boisterous, but they carry on conversations and speak up when they have something to say.
The ones who have a true mental disability will be classified in ways that reflect the actual reason for their deficits. This will increase our ability to mitigate the risks of children being born with or developing a disability. It will also give us a better chance at treating such people. Sweeping everyone under one grand carpet will do less to address the individual issues of each person.
The brains of a chicken, coupled with the claws of two eagles, may well hatch the eggs of our destruction.
Careful - Just like with the Balmer Peak, too much doesn't always mean "better".
You probably want to shoot for the high 20s or low 30s... Antisocial enough not to waste time chatting about stupid shit, but still able to effectively collaborate with others (when absolutely necessary).
Sorry, but being a nerd with all the social awkwardness that comes with it does not make one autistic.
"We don't suffer from mental illness, we rather enjoy it."
I've yet to meet anyone who sufferes from actualy clinical depression who enjoys it. Plenty of mental illnesses are in fact illnesses.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
Just think how great it would be for corporations if they could convince people that suffering is a desirable trait?
The "work ethic" will only take you so far. If you really want complaint slaves, you have to convince people that pain is good for you.
You are welcome on my lawn.
I am in the autism spectrum. I'm 46. I can now interact in an almost normal way, people don't notice at all I'm autistic, but only about 5 to 10 hours a week max. The "acting normal game" take me so much energy that I become extremely tired very fast. After a two hours meeting, I must take at least a day of rest. If I'm in a place where there is more than 5 of 6 people, I must keep all social interactions to a minimum. If I don't, I revert to my natural way of interacting with people and I end up pissing off everyone. I live alone with three cats and almost no one ever come to my apartment. Except from my landlord who comes once a month to collect the rent, the last person who entered my house was my mother about three months ago. Other than work, I have no social life whatsoever. The first time I had sex, I was 40 years old.
So yes, I guess you can say I'm "mentally handicapped".
On the other hand, my IQ is 155. Maybe you think it's a low IQ, but I think most people will disagree with you.
Captcha : "single". I swear /. is sentient.
So there may be a biological reason for my introversion and social awkwardness. Does that mean I should give up improving myself to fit in better? Many of us can improve with enough effort and motivation. Some cannot.
And they say autistics don't get sarcasm.
I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
That really IS enough to iron out any random factors, meaning that the male / female difference is a real effect. Whether it is significant is a different debate, but it's at least proved what the anecdotes have long suggested.
Great job, captains of industry...way to read the trends! Just as autism/ASD starts swinging up, suitable employment for these people gets offshored/marginalized. Can't wait to see the revolution brought about by millions of angry people without social graces...just kidding.
Seriously, I do see this as a problem. I don't know if ASD is overdiagnosed, but I do know that there are still people (like me) who are "normal" but not outgoing, don't like group/collaborative work, and would rather spend time solving hard problems than "networking." Not even 30 years ago, there were plenty of jobs for this personality type. Companies valued scientists and engineers, now they just see them as disposable necessities. I just don't see the need for the constant push to make everyone a social animal. I have no desire to be a project manager, salesman or motivational speaker - why is that held out as the only successful path forward?
From a psychopath perspective, you would think companies would be happy to have ASD employees. It's not polite to say, but some can really be taken advantage of due to the lack of social skills. Think of all the software developers who willingly work 100 hour weeks because their boss knows they won't complain. I know some will disagree with me, but I think that's one of the major reasons IT and developers won't organize and turn the job into a profession - dislike of group association, feeling they're superior to everyone they would associate with, etc.
I have a while with my 2 kids; they're just starting school. However, if things continue I can't recommend a STEM job if it turns out they're smart. I'd rather see them kick ass in school, earn their way into the Ivy League club and coast. It's way easier to be an idiot investment banker or management consultant than it is a scientist or engineer. I'd only tell them to pursue STEM if it was clear they had a true gift and could be one of the few people who make a successful life out of it.
Do you think we've not tried everything we can over the course of 25 years including everything you suggest? Every situation is different, but in this case you are completely incorrect. He has actually come quite a ways, but if you ever met him you'd understand. Bagging groceries is a hell of an achievement considering where we started...
+1
I got chills reading that. That's one of the most accurate descriptions I think I've ever read.
The description fits me very good aswell.
I'd bet it fits about 95% of the population
It's called the Barnum Effect.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
Why not go onto our website and take the My MindChecker test to measure the extent of any autistic traits you might have, and whilst your results are confidential, the overall data will form the biggest national survey of its kind.
No chance of their data being biased in that survey...
Anyone who says that autism isn't a disease has never spent time around people with moderate to severe autism. I've fought this thing for over 25 years now and HAVE been around these people. What IS a problem is trying to lump just about everything into the autism spectrum. This just started happening in the last 5-10 years, and I've watched it progress. It's frustrating because it causes people who haven't been exposed to real autism to write it off as the "mental disease du jour" that I previously mentioned.
Somebody sees a list of symptoms and thinks, "Hey, socially withdrawn? Dislikes change? Savant characteristics? That describes Bob!" Then other people come along and say, "Are you nuts? There's nothing really wrong with Bob." Meanwhile nobody has really been exposed to the real thing and so they think everything can be fixed by really challenging these people or finding the right job for their characteristics.
I'd challenge anyone to watch my son sit and rock back and forth while flipping the same toy back and forth from hand to hand for hours on end, say yes when he means no and no when he means yes (not always, just enough to confuse things) and tell me we just haven't found the right ways to use his talents. He's a grocery bagger, and we're very proud he's gotten to that level, thank you very much...
Raw AQ distribution
From the data (n = 450,394), the reported mean AQ score was 19.83 (SD = 8.71), and tests of normality (Kolmogorov-Smirnov and Anderson-Darling) revealed this data had a positive skew of 0.47 and a kurtosis of -0.27.
http://journals.plos.org/ploso...
Further... STEM or no-STEM means about... the diddly part of the diddly squat.
When sex, age, and occupation are entered into a multiple linear regression model, less than 4% of the variance in AQ in the current sample is explained, indicating that other unmeasured variables contribute to autistic traits as measured by the AQ.
I.e. IF we are to take this study at face value - there is no significant difference between sex, age or occupation.
On the other hand...
It was an anonymous online-survey.
Of people who have just seen a documentary on autism.
Who were then invited to take the BIGGEST TEST EVER.
In the episode, the TV presenters (both medical doctors) introduced the topic of autism by giving population prevalence estimates, and explained that many individuals in the general population have autistic traits.
They invited viewers by saying, "Why not go onto our website and take the My MindChecker test to measure the extent of any autistic traits you might have, and whilst your results are confidential, the overall data will form the biggest national survey of its kind."
The program continued by explaining the symptoms of autism: difficulty with social interaction, trouble understanding aspects of humour such as sarcasm, feelings of anxiety associated with sensory stimulation, and intense special interests and hobbies.
The presenters concluded, "If you are experiencing similar symptoms [...] and want to find out if you have a condition that affects how you interact with the world and other people, then take part now in our self test."
The link to the data collection site was displayed at the outset of the autism segment and at intervals throughout the episode.
The presenters announced approximately 30 minutes after the initial mention of the website that 40,000 individuals had already completed the survey.
BTW, do you suffer headaches? Are you frequently tired? Do you forget things?
You might be having A DISEASE - take our test to find out.
COME ON! Everyone else is doing it!
Oh... and then there's the test.
Which, at it's higher specificity and reliability level, WHEN ADMINISTERED on people already referred to an autism clinic (i.e. someone with a degree in mental health sent them to be checked for autism) - guessed right in 3 out of 4 cases.
And it doesn't work for lower IQ individuals. Online test had no such limitation. All you had to do is click links.
A "drinking bird" would probably score slightly above average.
at a cut-off score of 26, 83% of people referred to an adult autism clinic were correctly identified (sensitivity 0.95, specificity 0.52, positive predictive value 0.84, negative predictive value 0.78), while a cut-off score of 32 was found to correctly identify 76% of people (sensitivity 0.77, specificity 0.74) [3].
The AQ was designed for adults with average IQ or above [1], so is suitable for use in the general population and for at least 50% of people on the autism spectrum [24].
The questionnaire is not suitable for individuals with low IQ or language impairment, as it relies on the comprehension of the 50 questions.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
THIS! Yes, that's exactly it - all of it. See my other response below which kind of elaborates on that.
Hogwash. Non-STEM generally pay more attention to social cues and "people issues". Us geeks have an "attention span" problem with regard to people. We often are not aware of this because, well, we are not aware of this.
Watch the faces of clothing shoppers; some are very attentive to their shopping task. They are weighing many issues in their mind.
The bottom line is the "regular" people are more interested in people issues and STEM people are more interested in machines, puzzles, and symbols. Each is bored by different things. (Yes, there are exceptions to the rule.)
Table-ized A.I.
Makes me wonder how long it's worth continuing to live, if it's just going to get worse from here.
Well there, let's just not get all worked up about this.
The question to me is wether ASD is really a disorder or rather a preposition that makes a person optimal for certain tasks and not good at others.
It is also measurably common that people who are more intelligent than the average are considered having an ASD, although they're just being less stupid and mundane than the people around them. The problem being that smart people look like crazy people to dumb people.
I favour this theory of genetic preposition. There are things such as abstract thinking, grasping meta-concepts, solving hard problems, not backing down from a fight, seeing beyond the general populations everyday horizon, etc. that 95% of the population would utterly despair at. People who come into my office have their skin crawling in just about sheer horror when they see my screens littered with code, editor and terminal windows ... I'm just about the sole IT guy in a marketing agency - go figure. It's extremely alien to them.
They also think I'm a weirdo because I rather read stoic philosophy or go tango dancing than get drunk on a saturday night. I, however, see no point whatsoever in going into Duesseldorfs cramped and hideously expensive old town to get loaded while loosing 50 euros or more a night. The girls think it's peculiar that I turn a date into an artful celebration and think I'm some romantic weirdo - which I am - but they *do* dig it once they get what I'm up to. Very much, AFAICT.
Likewise I don't get why anyone would rag on about someone behind his back and not be able to be straightforward when the person is around. I consider it cowardice. I do lie in social situations, just not as often as others. I'd rather be frank and straighforward - even if people think I'm a weirdo and awkward that way and it makes them uncomfortable. I love and crave to be popular, but I value knowlege and skill and honest over popularity in quite a few situations. Paul Graham was spot on about this.
I'd rather make a splash and be noticed than go unseen - which is more often than it is good for me - admitted.
I also like to debate - more often than people around me - which does make me annoying at times.
Does that make me an ASD candidate - D as in "disorder"? I think not. I'm more predisposed to being a leader, innovator, bum or terrorist than a "regular guy" - which makes me exciting, interesting but sometimes also more stenuous to be around. Why bum? Just like many of 'us' I'd rather do nothing or slack off in front of my console that do something I consider utterly pointless. Why terrorist? ... Push me far enough and I'll value my ideas about how society should be more that the people around me - one of the prime traits of those people.
I'm a hunter / gatherer / pathfinder in a society with a large majority of settlers & farmers and every patch of land mapped out and explored already. ... Which is why I'm into computers, art and other frontiers.
There is so much going wrong in our society, and a lot has to do with broken social traditions and superstition that someone who's diagnosed with "mild ASD" or whatever might just actually be the more healthy person. Elon Musk is a stutterer who can't finish a sentance without tons of ums and ahs and his muttering is difficult to understand at times - no way would I dare call im disordered. He's probably irritated that he has to explain the most fundamental underpinnings of his motivation again and again. AFAICT the man is a freaking genius - and just because he'd rather give away his patents to save the planet that rake in tons of short-term cash doesn't make him a freak - it makes him a healthy person with a very high moral standard.
Bottom Line:
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." - Jiddu Krishnamurti
I couldn't say it any better.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
(same AC, wanted to add)
I personally believe that a lot of high-functioning autistic traits (ie, most of those that previously would have been called Asperger's) are almost entirely environmental or learned behaviors rather than something actually being inherently "wrong" in the brain. Not the case with people like your son, who obviously have a disease and could not have been prevented, but for many of the other cases out there.
It has been proven that brain chemistry and even physical shape can change with the things people experience in their lives. Lately we've even been discovering that even the affects of our grandparent's environmental factors get passed on and impact us. We also know that often autism is "triggered" by highly stressful events. Abuse, injury, the few legit cases where vaccines "caused" autism. To me it seems very similar to sociopathy, PTSD, alcoholism, etc, in that it is just as much the result of a coping mechanism or externally created effect that, while it may be heavily influenced by genes, is not actually "caused" by anything. Kind like how cancer is usually not actually "caused" by anything, but based on genetic factors, diet, stress, radiation, and a multitude of other things you can predict where it's more likely to show up.
I mostly agree. My wife and I were never ones to look for someone or something to "blame" for our son's condition. We accepted it as a fact of life that needed to be dealt with, and just tried to ignore all the fluff and give him the best chance to be and do everything he's capable of. We didn't chase after every "miracle cure" that fell flat.
Nobody knows what causes moderate to severe autism. Obviously I've followed the whole vaccine debate closely, but I don't buy that that's it. I personally think there can be more than one cause. However I will say it's highly unusual for someone to develop strong autism-like symptoms after a child learns to talk well. It has happened, but it's rare. So I'm pretty suspect of people later in life suddenly "developing autism". I think there are other things going on there...
Besides , a syndrome by definition is a-typical. Defining the typical as a syndrome robs the word of any meaning whatsoever.
By that definition all Humans are a-typical for not being insects. Humanity is defined as intellect alone, NTs are genuinely less Human and therefore are a-typical.
Of course engineers are more likely to be autistic. In fact, it was observed years ago that autism rates are way up in the Silicon Valley, which is explained quite simply by the fact that engineers are interbreeding! As a software engineer, do I consider myself more autistic than average? Yes. Does Bill Gates exhibit symptoms of autism? Absolutely. If you're a slashdot reader, you probably score higher than average on an autism test.
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
This feels more like about how *you* don't want to be labelled as opposed to what has happened to this person's son. Well, no one is labeling you. You're doing that yourself.
Perhaps you would care to describe the sort of conditions that are "correct" for his son from scientific literature? You might know something that this person has not been able to find out in 25 years of working with his son. That can happen, science advances all the time, but it is just as likely that he's familiar with them and his son does not respond to those environments.
You don't know what was tried, so it is unclear to me where you get the idea that you can simply assume that he hasn't tried any of those things.
The reality is that severe autism can have a wide variety of outcomes based on the level of development of particular capabilities. You could end up as a very, very odd math genius. Or you could just end up very, very odd and incapable of functioning without considerable attention and a controlled environment. I can totally see how it might be an achievement for his son simply to be able to hold down a job and be able to interact with people in an uncontrolled environment.
The ones that aren't flat out lying on their resumes, yes.
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
NTs are often intolerant of seemingly minor differences in others. When in groups NTs are socially and behaviorally rigid, and frequently insist upon the performance of dysfunctional, destructive, and even impossible rituals as a way of maintaining group identity.
While I recognize the sarcastic humor in this (even without seeing the site mentioned; it's taking a geologic age to load for some reason) there is a shred of truth in what you're saying, but there is an older and more obvious reason for this sort of behavior: FEAR. The average person is horribly insecure, and cares way too much about what other people think of them, to the point of it dictating their choices in life. Peer pressure is probably one of the most destructive things that human beings do to each other, and it has a chilling effect on creativity in general.
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
I can figure out some of the stuff I'm missing. Talking to strangers looks like it could be fun, if I had the ability to get a conversation going and continuing easily. Being able to get women sexually interested in me would have been real nice back before I married one.
I'm not complaining about my life here, and wouldn't want to give up my abilities for social skills, but I'd like to have intuitive social skills in addition.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
It probably wouldn't piss you off if you were really autistic. Maybe see a good doctor and get medication for your behavior and personality disorders instead of trying to self-diagnose as something trendy because it gives you an excuse for your piss-poor behavior. Using a fake diagnosis as an excuse for your unwillingness to uphold your end of the social contract is far worse than anything you claimed the parent-post did. It's akin to wearing a uniform and medals you did not earn.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
How does this study not suffer from self selection bias? I looked at the study but didn't find the answer. Presumably they would have addressed this given that it is peer reviewed.
Perhaps we should all just grow up and admit that it takes all types to do all the jobs that exist and we are not all equal, we only have equal rights, therefore when one group dominates a specific field it is just a sign of competition and specialisation. And on a related note of irony autistic men can probably thank their mothers for the atypical chromosome configuration that makes them so much more suited to STEM type pursuits, in the same way that woman can thank their mother for a lower chance of having mental retardation when compared to their brother. Natural selection favours reliable females and expendable males, males who it can experiment with in turns of cognitive configurations. i.e. Male genius is the bonus a lucky few get from the greater risk of them being born with a cognitive disability.
Yeah, I'm sure an Anonymous Cunt on the internet knows better than the parents and the medical professionals involved.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
a different mode of thinking as provided by autism can have major advantages
Yeah, it appears to give you the ability to totally divorce yourself from reality. Saves money on drugs, I suppose.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
"We don't suffer from mental illness, we rather enjoy it."
I've yet to meet anyone who sufferes from actualy clinical depression who enjoys it. Plenty of mental illnesses are in fact illnesses.
Once you allow autism to mean "occasionally socially awkward" everyone can call themselves autistic and the word has become meaningless.
It's offensive to those who actually have to deal with real autism.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
OH the joys of working in an exceptional student class. Not me, but my wife who had some humorous tales. One little girl couldn't stand singing. One little boy sang constantly. Put them side by side and hilarity ensues. She holds her hands over her ears and squeals "Stop singing!". He of course doubles his volume. After a few iterations she is reduced to continuous shrieking and he LA LAing at the top of his lungs.
https://xkcd.com/538/