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Will You Be Able To Run a Modern Desktop Environment In 2016 Without Systemd?
New submitter yeupou writes: Early this year, David Edmundson from KDE, concluded that "In many cases [systemd] allows us to throw away large amounts of code whilst at the same time providing a better user experience. Adding it [systemd] as an optional extra defeats the main benefit". A perfectly sensible explanation. But, then, one might wonder to which point KDE would remain usable without systemd?
Recently, on one Devuan box, I noticed that KDE power management (Powerdevil) no longer supported suspend and hibernate. Since pm-utils was still there, for a while, I resorted to call pm-suspend directly, hoping it would get fixed at some point. But it did not. So I wrote a report myself. I was not expecting much. But neither was I expecting it to be immediately marked as RESOLVED and DOWNSTREAM, with a comment accusing the "Debian fork" I'm using to "ripe out" systemd without "coming with any of the supported solutions Plasma provides". I searched beforehand about the issue so I knew that the problem also occurred on some other Debian-based systems and that the bug seemed entirely tied to upower, an upstream software used by Powerdevil. So if anything, at least this bug should have been marked as UPSTREAM.
While no one dares (yet) to claim to write software only for systemd based operating system, it is obvious that it is now getting quite hard to get support otherwise. At the same time, bricks that worked for years without now just get ruined, since, as pointed out by Edmunson, adding systemd as "optional extra defeats its main benefit". So, is it likely that we'll still have in 2016 a modern desktop environment, without recent regressions, running without systemd?
Recently, on one Devuan box, I noticed that KDE power management (Powerdevil) no longer supported suspend and hibernate. Since pm-utils was still there, for a while, I resorted to call pm-suspend directly, hoping it would get fixed at some point. But it did not. So I wrote a report myself. I was not expecting much. But neither was I expecting it to be immediately marked as RESOLVED and DOWNSTREAM, with a comment accusing the "Debian fork" I'm using to "ripe out" systemd without "coming with any of the supported solutions Plasma provides". I searched beforehand about the issue so I knew that the problem also occurred on some other Debian-based systems and that the bug seemed entirely tied to upower, an upstream software used by Powerdevil. So if anything, at least this bug should have been marked as UPSTREAM.
While no one dares (yet) to claim to write software only for systemd based operating system, it is obvious that it is now getting quite hard to get support otherwise. At the same time, bricks that worked for years without now just get ruined, since, as pointed out by Edmunson, adding systemd as "optional extra defeats its main benefit". So, is it likely that we'll still have in 2016 a modern desktop environment, without recent regressions, running without systemd?
Just use Windows.
Zips up flame-proof suit. Dons shaded goggles.
Yes, if you roll your own.
Linux is not just a DE
It is the kernel, the file system, the desktop environment, the package management.
If you're allergic to trimming your neckbeard and running a modern init, just switch to *BSD where they adopted the features that people are whining about decades ago. ;)
Haters hate, but do they know why? Do they have a choice? Do they have Free Will, or were they born unable to tell the difference between choosing software they want to run, and being forced to run software that... they chose?
The integrated face system is a mandatory components of all Desktop environments, including TWM.
OS X
I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
Yes.
Software developers make .service files with their packages these days.
We kill the systemdman.
Of course not. Lennart's not going to be happy until he controls the whole OS.
About 10 or 20 million lines of code to write a calculator GUI, are they really one to talk about Systemd making them less bloated? And blaming Linux?
Just use an operating system that has proper quality assurance.
The systemd cabal has won.
Give up trying to fight the moralistic fight. UN*X is no longer the ancient monolithic beast you learned to love in the 80's.
I'm sad as well. Heck, I'm even using network mangler on servers theses days. (10 million kittens probably just died).
Posting anon for obvious reasons (I'm a kitten murder).
As we've all learned from Apple: No half-assed shit. Do or don't do. No place for inbetween stuff.
systemd has downsided but it also has upsides. We should stick with the upsides and patch the downsides until they're basically a non-issue.
I don't do much init-fiddling although I do like the text based init/runlevel thing, and I would guess that plug-and-play - one of systemd's strong areas - should be a userspace problem, but that's just me not really know what's going on in the init process.
However, since all major distros have moved to systemd it can't be that bad as some people make it out to be. I trust the debian and ubuntu crew to know what they are doing at init-level.
If as a result the Linux community grows closer together and focuses more on consistency I'm all for the move to systemd - even if that moves Linux away from the rest of the unixes due to loss of posix compliance. Seriously, who cares? It's mostly Linux left, right and center these days anyway. The BSD people will be fine with whatever they choose as init process, as usual, and no one gives a damn about other non-FOSS unixes anymore anyway. Unix basically is Linux these days.
But, as I said at the beginning: There is no use going systemd, but only kinda so-so. If the community get's behind systemd, it works and is/becomes usable and apps start relying on it being there - so what?
My 0.5 eurocents.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
unless you spend a few years doing your own 2016 is the YEAR OF SYSTEMD. BOW BEFORE US STUPID UNIXER.
Post the issue to your distribution not the systemd group. 1D10T
Linux GUI environments are not reliable. The best example of a reliable GUI is indisputably Apple's OS X, which uses launchd. I use Linux extensively thru shell environments from OS X GUI. Cant get any better.
They don't. If you don't like the way Linux distros are evolving, then try out another OS that uses X11. Who knows, maybe a push towards FreeBSD will help speed up support for more hardware there. There's of course some certain apps (GParted for example) or limited features in a Desktop Environment that depend solely on Linux, but I find that to be generally rare, especially when looking at what FreeBSD Ports supports.
My oldie-but-goodie Slackware Linux is still staying away from systemd, so I'm glad about that.
Die Systemd! I prefer my log files in text format.
Do they have Free Will...
I read that as "Do they have Free WiFi?".
I must have spent too much time in hotel lobbies lately...
Here was my original post to contribute to starting the flamewar:
"Never heard of Windows or OS X? Or by "modern desktop" you mean "experience lagging the mainstream concept of modernity by about five years" ?
PS Using some random hipster linux distro because a bunch of trolls on slashdot told you to do so, and then expecting to get excellent support from the developers is the very definition of insanity."
I have never been prouder of the Slashdot community that this sentiment was already covered by all the comments that showed up before I could post.
That was a very nice post and all, but I really lost focus after reading "Do or don't do" instead of "do or do not".
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
You are all cows. Cows say moo. MOOOO! MOOOO! Moo cows MOOOO! Moo say the cows. YOU INIT-LOVING COWS!!
These distros have been moving further and further away from their UNIX roots for years.
Slackware and Gentoo are major Linux distros and still over a non-systemd middleware.
Run KDE on FreeBSD if you don't like Systemd. It works you know.
Slackware FOREVER !!!!!!!!!!
SystemD == Linux at this point. You will not be able to run any modern and supported (by either active/large community or corporation) Linux without it.
Is that good or is that bad? I would say it is immaterial. Until now we had good old fashion init, what that good or bad? Answer: Both. Just like Systemd.
I don't do much init-fiddling although I do like the text based init/runlevel thing,
It's pretty clear that if KDE depends on one particular init system, that systemd is no longer just an init system.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Will you be able to run a modern Linux desktop without systemd in 2016? Yes. Will you be able to run all modern Linux desktops in 2016 without systemd? Probably not.
KDE and GNOME appear set to fully adopt systemd as a dependency, but most other desktops probably will not. Cinnamon is developed by the Mint team and they still use SysV init. Lumina is cross platform and developed by PC-BSD, so they will never depend on systemd, Xfce is still developed and probably won't adopt systemd as a hard dependency in the near future...
As we've all learned from Apple: No half-assed shit. Do or don't do.
I believe that was taught by Yoda, not Apple.
For Linux, I am afraid the battle is lost... systemd has become exactly what its distractors were afraid of: an operating system on top of the kernel (and, in some cases, in replacement to bits of the kernel). As systemd continues to consume other functions, it will be even more entwined and harder to rip out.
All this is kind of sad because it really shows what focused corporate interests can really push onto a community, no matter how much a community complains about it. For me, this is what I am most "anti" systemd about. Yeah, it's a large, monolithic target; yeah the people behind it are mostly control freaks with really moderate skills; yeah, it replaces a small messed-up implementation with a significantly larger and more messed-up on... all these things and more could be forgiven. What can't be is the abuse of power and privilege that allowed this to happen.
I've got a green tan from my 80x25 CRT monitor. Lynx is nice and fast. Who needs Javascript and Java? Command line it!
I downloaded void linux live LXQT, previously I have been months on void E19 but I don't like its file manager. Install went ok, suspend/resume went ok, boots FAST installs/removes packages FAST, the init scripts of runit are one liners, I witness no quirks which plague systemd-distros at the moment. YMMV, but I question your destination.
Captcha : passages
> As we've all learned from Apple: No half-assed shit. Do or don't do.
I'd excuse a higher UID for this statement, but yours is too low. Apparently you weren't around in OSX 10.0 and 10.1?
It might work if large portions of the community didn't defect if people said so.
I've pointed out the monopolistic behaviours (charging millions to cell companies to just have their phones), false advertising, and the 30% tax that applies for all in-app purchases (literally, you can pop into a web browser and get the same thing for cheaper; it's why bigger stores like amazon don't have apps you can buy from), hell even APL straight out calling their users unreasonable (see lawsuit "no reasonable person would believe our advertising" when people link like mad their advertising) ... Even a few complain about not having money, then blow an extra $500+ on a 512GB SSD when they barely use 128GB (this was a few years ago when SSD prices were on the expensive side).
Absolutely no-one has moved away, despite complaining about other services being more expensive than needed or monopolistic. The reasons provided for continuing range from "it's pretty" to outright dismissal, from regular everyday people to tech nerds.
As much as I don't want to be that "fanboi hater", everything I see points to extreme, blind, dedication.
Now if SystemD had that same core audience, I can guarantee you that the devs would move over instantly and not care. However, since this is a community-contributed project, a sudden move will cause massive defections (as per this guy) and the project would die.
If APL did the same thing, they wouldn't care because their remaining userbase is effectively funding everything necessary due to their high margins from those who stay - they'll just make a lot of money instead of obscene amounts.
Take a look at antiX Linux and MX Linux. They are both modern distros with fairly modern desktops and they don't use systemd.
We don't see the world as it is, we see it as we are.
-- Anais Nin
> systemd has downsided but it also has upsides. We should stick with the upsides and patch the downsides until they're basically a non-issue.
Which means ripping _everything_ out which the Holy Poettering decided to be a good idea to put into SystemD that doesn't belong there.
Json parser in SystemD, wtfm8.
To fork or write your own desktop environment if you don't like it, that is the point of open source; not the ability to force other people to kowtow your arbitrary system choices.
It makes sense that KDE would like systemd. They both are bloated and do far more than they need to.
I disagree on the "full-throttle" part. That's be fine on consumer desktops. But Linux is mostly about production servers. Yes, yes... I know... mainstream Linux on the desktop is "just around the corner" and all that. :)
I have no great love for sysV init scripts. Getting rid of them would break a few things in my world. But really, those things could probably stand a new look and update anyway. But my second-to-main issue with systemd is that it's just somewhat half-baked and obtuse. There's a lot of "don't look behind the curtain, just trust us that it'll work" to it. That'd be tolerable in a consumer OS, or even in a consumer-targeted Linux distort like Mint, but not in bloody RHEL and Debian!
My biggest gripe about systemd, though, is its counterpart in crime: journald. Binary log files are the work of the devil and journald needs to die in a fire. And no one... not even a couple of Red Hat engineers I've spoken with... has been able to give be a non-hackish, production-worthy, way of ripping journald out of the thing and replacing it with syslog.
Imagine all the people...
Keep systemd, kick out Poettering.
????
by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
Same AC. ... SystemDinux/SystemD Kernel or something like that.
If Lennart continues like this, he might as well attach the whole linux kernel to SystemD and call it a fork
$subj is another part breaking modern Linux OSes which we should get rid of. Each month a new breakage, this month it is USB speakers invisible to software playing via pulseaudio while still addressable as an ALSA device.
Without Systemd Wiki: http://without-systemd.org/wik...
If this is going to be the case, then we need a Systemd specification or RFC maintained by a widely respected committee and multiple implementations should be available.
A Plasma(which sucks ass) advocate thinks that systemd(which also sucks ass) is the way of the future.
The real question in my mind is; can Linux survive this trip down the wrong road and get back on track, or is this systemd diversion going to be the end of Linux?
Remember when Upstart was the only way forward? That turned out to be a trip down the wrong road. But not every distro jumped on Upstart, it didn't replace the logging system or break workflows, and Desktop Environments didn't contemplate chucking large sections of their own code to then rely on it.
No matter how smart you think you are; there comes a point where people are sufficiently sick of your shit that they will act against their own interests to get the fuck away from you
You posted as AC. Try again.
Sigh.
First, only an idiot would want a monoculture, particularly in the Linux world, so to those saying "just to systemd full bore or go to (someplace else)" the rest of us need to respond with a very loud and resounding: Fuck You.
That said, things aren't nearly as dire as this post implies. Reading from the responses to the bug he himself linked to, I find the following:
> Unless KDE is prepared to make a statement that it depends on systemd
of course not. Powerdevil recently also gained support for ConsoleKit2, see: http://commits.kde.org/powerde...
Which turns it into a distro problem. Your distribution configured the system in a way that suspend/hibernate is broken. It doesn't come with any of the supported solutions Plasma provides. Which makes it a distro problem. The distro integrates various parts of the software stack. This includes it's the distro's task to ensure that components work together. It failed here by ripping out systemd and replace it with well nothing.
So while I'm sure the systemd zealots would love to see KDE, Gnome3, etc. only work with systemd and drop support for all other distros, this doesn't appear to be happening. In the case of KDE, ConsoleKit2 is supported (and therefor Funtoo, Gentoo, Arch with OpenRC, etc. will continue to work just fine).
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
> "don't look behind the curtain, just trust us that it'll work"
Except when it doesn't and since it swallows stderr and a lot of syslog messages, you can't troubleshoot. Something that would take 30 seconds with Sys V init scripts can take hours since you have to resort to using strace with systemd to try to find problems by looking through hundreds of thousands of lines of output.
Linux on the desktop is irrelevant, just like Linux is becoming irrelevant because of this continued systemd faggotry.
Who the fuck is going to run servers with systemd? Centos 7 is not an upgrade path that is acceptable for anyone.
The reasons are obvious.
Not a anti systemd troll. Fact: systemd is designed by an incompetent, stupid, and arrogant cunt who:
- isn't a system administrator
- probably doesn't use Linux for shit besides developing systemd.
The time has come to hire someone who isn't an incompetent cunt to write an init system.
Big deal. GNOME got forked as well: check out the Mate project, forked from GNOME 2 before the "let's remove all configurability" push. Mate's terminal emulator is nearly perfect, whereas GNOME's is barely usable.
That's Free Software for you. As always, the connoisseur must look at options besides the ones Red Hat etc. would offer.
The questioner has it the wrong way around.
The systemd team didn't create those dependencies, the DE maintainers did. All of these DEs ran just fine without systemd and they still could if someone was interested in doing so. In fact given the maturity of the old interfaces, and the code already existing in previous releases it should be much easier to maintain say, KDE or Gnome, without systemd that it is for the team trying to add it in. There is nothing stopping people from forking the existing code and running their own project, we have seen this happen in the open-source world dozens of times. If there is a lot of demand for systemd less distros, the community will make them.
The question isn't "Will You Be Able To Run a Modern Desktop Environment In 2016 Without Systemd?". The question is "Where are all the systemd-free projects?".
Linus said talk is cheap show me the code. So where is it? For all the complaining, flamewars, and cries of fleeing to *BSD you would expect systemd-free projects to be springing up left and right. So where are they? If Red Hat is making such a huge mistake switching to systemd, then surely their competitors at SUSE, Cannonical, and Mandriva will capitalize on that mistake in the name of profits no? It isn't surprising that seemingly everyone is adopting systemd. systemd is solving problems and implementing feature that people want. That is easy to explain.
What is remarkable here is the massive disconnect between the amount of outcry about systemd and the amount of code being written to avoid it.
"one might wonder to which point KDE would remain usable without systemd"
WTF? What is that even supposed to mean?
Oh, I forgot... Americans.
All of your questions are easily answered by reading the link provided at the top of the article:
http://blog.davidedmundson.co.uk/blog/systemd-and-plasma
Why does the desktop care who's booted it up?
The Init System "We don't care. It doesn't affect us."
logind Allows KDE to provide user-switching features.
Device Management Allows KDE to have access to your mouse and keyboard without root access and without random applications being able to sniff your keystrokes.
Inhibitor Locks Allows KDE to react to notifications like "the system is about to go down" and delay until a condition is met (example: delay a suspend until the lock screen is displayed and all your desktop windows are hidden behind the lock screen).
timedated and Friends Allows KDE to set time and date without root; allows KDE apps to be notified if time and date gets changed. (KDE currently runs a daemon just to watch for time and date changes, and they would like to get rid of this daemon and simplify their code.)
User Units If KDE takes advantage of the "units" in systemd, then when any part of KDE crashes or hangs, systemd will restart the misbehaving part.
that implies they won't work on *BSD at all. Right?
"Projects like [SystemBSD] bring the interfaces we need to BSD and as it gets more stable we should be able to start distributing features."
So really, choice is being taken away clear across the board. Either that or I'm missing something really big which implies systemd is not a strict dependency.
I encourage you to read the whole article and see what big things you are missing.
I don't know about you, but when I read that article I didn't think "Man those KDE guys are idiots, why would they want any of that." It all makes sense to me.
It's easier for me to believe that SystemD has some merit than to believe that all the Debian core developers are idiots, plus all the Ubuntu developers, and now all the KDE developers and for that matter the Gnome developers.
My biggest concerns with systemd are the monoculture of it all, so projects like UselessD and SystemBSD sound great to me. Force the SystemD guys to document and justify everything, and provide alternatives.
lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
Systemd never was, and never will be, just an init system. The init system is just a small part of systemd. The init system isn't the part the desktops are depending on. It's the interfaces to other subsystems the desktops are depending on, such as the power management interface and the hotplug interface.
This is your sig. There are thousands more, but this one is yours.
But stderr is an out of date concept. You should use the binary journal since it is much more powerful.
Neckbeards dominate windows 10 posts and I have more cred than the lot of them. Upgrade to windows now rather than later and free yourselves from tools who think that hijacking your boot is okay.
Run KDE on FreeBSD if you don't like Systemd. It works you know.
It won't continue to work for too much longer.
I use & like Lumina, but they recently made some changes to their user interface. The pull down menu for exiting was at the top right, and they suddenly shifted it to the top left. They need to realize that a consistent look & feel across versions is important. It's not that I can't go to the top left - it's just that after a habit is formed, to have to change it in a new version is disruptive.
I would like PC-BSD to own the Wayland implementation of FreeBSD, since the latter seems to be more focussed on the OS services - from things like portsng to Capsicum. Right now, when you install the OS, if you want to install any DEs, FreeBSD prompts you to install PC-BSD. So make the Wayland implementation in FreeBSD a part of the PC-BSD project, just like PBI and usability issues. I'd also like to see what, if anything, is FreeBSD doing as a succession for system init.
There is a basic principle that drives the evolution of Libre Software, or at least the majority of it that is developed by a community:
Developers have the final say.
Developers make technical decisions based on technical merits and usability decisions based on their own use of the software, because they usually use their own software. They do not kowtow to the whims of a client or a commercial director.
Arguably, systemd itself is developed under the aegis of a single company, not a community. But KDE is undoubtedly a community project, and so are Debian and the other distributions that chose to switch to systemd. They did so not because they were compelled nor because Lennart Poettering brainwashed them them, but because, from the height of their technical expertise, they consider that systemd makes their task easier while respecting, or possibly even furthering, their usability goals.
As for the anti-systemd crowd Well, I know a few that develop and promote radically different system monitoring architectures, and they have valid arguments against systemd. As for the others, show us the code.
Speaking of which, if one can figure out a way to install emacs on systemd, one has the perfect system - no need to worry about linux vs bsd if all emacs needs to use are services provided by systemd
If someone doesn't want their modern desktop to run with modern underpinnings they should fork it. I'm sure KDE wouldn't mind - in fact they might welcome it since it simplifies their code base. They can make systemd a core dependency on Linux, remove heaps of cruft and refer the objectors in the direction of the fork.
Yeah and no. As pointed out in the article, the culprit is upower. But upower is mandatory for KDE power management. So it does not really matter whether it is Powerdevil that requires systemd or upower. ConsoleKit2 recently gained support? Was ConsoleKit2 actually been packaged? Does upower supporting ConsoleKit2 been packaged? If not, user experience wise, that is not palatable. And moreover, what to expect from upower? Did they not purposefully removed pm-utils support, that worked until then, in favor of systemd? Why removing support for a working solution (pm-utils) and, later, much later, adding support for some ConsoleKit2? What is the exact plan of ConsoleKit2? Providing some systemd-like interface without being systemd? Is that what ConsoleKit2 offers that pm-utils could not? If so, wow long will it work, to attempt to write a parallel to systemd, in order to make sure that all the software that in the past worked without systemd can now work with the systemd alternative? Just as a reminder, ConsoleKit2 exists "because there isnâ(TM)t currently a standard for system actions like suspend/hibernate anymore. We use these features in Xfce and it would be nice to keep the session manager and power manager in sync (i.e. you inhibit something and the session manager doesnâ(TM)t see it). Obviously thereâ(TM)s systembsd in the works, so this is a stop gap until that matures (however long that may be). But Iâ(TM)ll happily continue to maintain and support ConsoleKit2 as long as someone finds it useful". https://erickoegel.wordpress.c... The acknowledged benefit of systemd, as pointed out by Edmunson (link in the article) was to drop code. If ConsoleKit2 and al needs to write code to compensate from all the dropped code, following systemd, that unlikely sustainable. The stop gap project won't do. And it is really the funny thing now with systemd: if you dont want it, you need to write everything that it does because all the anterior/historical parts, good or bad, are getting deprecated and removed. So in order not to use systemd, you need to clone it. Bonkers. Hence the question: will KDE be still usable in 2016 without systemd.
If as a result the Linux community grows closer together and focuses more on consistency I'm all for the move to systemd - even if that moves Linux away from the rest of the unixes due to loss of posix compliance.
Not that systemd affects POSIX compliance (and not that Linux is certified as POSIX-compliant; I haven't found it to be significantly worse than any other UN*X in terms of "annoyingly different from everybody else" - frankly, if there isn't at least one thing your UN*X-family OS does annoyingly differently from all the other UN*X-family OSes, it can't really call itself a UN*X :-)).
Yeah, once Slackware gets better on my arm SBC I'll be switching to it too!
... Environment In 2016 Without the Kernel?
Why the fuck should I care? So many electrons have been wasted by complainers complaining about systemd when they could be coding up an amazing alternative that simultaneously solves all the same real problems that systemd solves but in a better way that would prove how incompetent the systemd folks supposedly are.
Sadly as usual, the systemd situation is proof positive that code talks and bullshit walks.
Except when it doesn't and since it swallows stderr
A sane background/daemon process launcher sends stdout and stderr somewhere where it gets logged. Are you saying systemd just sends the standard output and error of stuff it launches to /dev/null, or that it sends them somewhere that's not easy to process? (Launchd sends them to the Apple System Log mechanism, which, yes, does have a binary log database, but ASL also sends stuff, including the stdout/stderr from launchd-launched processes, to the Boring Old Text File /var/log/system.log.)
"First, only an idiot would want a monoculture, particularly in the Linux world..."
Like a monolithic kernel?
"So while I'm sure the systemd zealots..."
You are the only zealot. Everyone else who is actually a linux programmer and knows what systemd has to offer has already moved on.
I agree with binary log files having some serious issues, and I can easily imagine that replacing the logging system with it's predecessor is an ugly hack.
I wonder though how difficult it would be to replace journald with an interface-compatible logger that actually outputs good old fashioned text logs instead? Knowing nothing about journald or it's interfaces, it seems like it shouldn't be a huge problem - just fork off journald_txt, changing only the actual file output components. I would assume all the relevant data still enters the logging system, I mean there *is* a dedicated journald log reader, right?
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
systemd doesn't send it to the journal, so I assume I assume it is just lost.
A patch that fixes the downsides of systemd basically removes it.
If you're going to stick to the upsides of systemd, install Windows.
systemd is not an init system. Sure, it does that too, but what it really is is a complete change in how Linux systems are managed, and by extension is extremely Linux centric making it very hard for other OS to use free software that more and more depends on systemd. OpenBSD had a GSoC project to write systemd wrappers, or emulation layers if you will, to give the big desktop environments a chance to still work on non-systemd platforms. systemd is a total disaster. It represents everything the Unix philosophy is not. Do everything and do it poorly.
The real question is, "Will self-driving Uber cars use systemd when Elon Musk takes them to Mars?"
You are welcome on my lawn.
Until the Linux kernel requires systemd to boot, things really are not that bad. There are lots of tools for managing your system that are DE independent. If KDE is making a choice that you can't live with, maybe its time you broke-up with it. Give it enough time and the only way to access your system core will be via an html/css/javascript/php interface or something like that. I remember the move from Win 98 to XP. You could still use the CLI, just not without your windowing environment. Imagine if the big distros fell into a trap like that one day. The code divide would be much larger. You'd still be able to run the Linux kernel without using a main distro including such insanity. But just imagine that world.
Do they have Free Will...
I read that as "Do they have Free WiFi?".
I must have spent too much time in hotel lobbies lately...
That is your brain fighting back against the "$99 wifi available now" subliminal messaging. There is hope for you, but I recommend a tin-lined wig, just to be safe and blend in.
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Mr. Steven Burn of Malwarebytes
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---
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"Apk doesn't think DNS servers are worth running & believes Microsoft Active Directory can run w/out DNS." - by Coren22 (1625475) on Tuesday October 27, 2015
Show us where I say it? Not illogic logic but where I literally say it. I say AD needs internal DNS far back as 2007
http://forums.tweaktown.com/wi...
See "To warn users who have ActiveDirectory/AD LAN-WAN setups to NOT use external DNS servers" there.
---
"privilege escalation's a bad thing" - by Coren22 on Tuesday September 22, 2015
How else can I programmatically update hosts?
"requires elevation to write hosts" - by Coren22 (1625475) on Wednesday September 23, 2015
Hypocrite later admits it - hosts needs it vs. WFP/SFP not my ware. Users set it not programmatic impersonation. Security wares need it.
APK
P.S.=>
"modding you down for trolling in your signature" - by Dog-Cow (21281) on Wednesday November 25, 2015
What others like Dog-Cow (old acc't. not a new sockpuppet from you) thinks of your signatures about me
... apk
>Recently, on one Devuan box, I noticed that KDE power management (Powerdevil) no longer supported suspend and hibernate.
You know what the problem with that is? Why on earth does KDE even includes power management? And network manager and and and. All those should be just deamons or command line utilities common to all the distros.
Linux is so fragmented it's not even funny. Forked to oblivion.
I fear the day where Apple finally makes OSX as dumb as iOS is. As since Ubuntu switched to unity there's basically no real alternative. It's so sad how fast it went all downhill since what, 2012 or something. Crazy.
And systemd is just another nail in the coffin.
Normally, I'd agree with you, but with Lennart being in charge of it, it'll be half-assed like everything else he's touched. Therein lies the problem it...isn't...designed. There's no sense of "mission critical" with this man, and systemd SHOWS IT. Just like Avahi was and PulseAudio before it. Sorry, the concept is needed, what is getting executed isn't.
The ordinary installation.
Dropping syslog messages shows how inexperienced the systemd guys are. syslog has been critical for running servers for decades.
I disagree on the "full-throttle" part. That's be fine on consumer desktops. But Linux is mostly about production servers. Yes, yes... I know... mainstream Linux on the desktop is "just around the corner" and all that. :)
The question here is: What's with serverhosts these days? They are either embeded/integrated or virtualised. No one screws around (literally) with hardware anymore - not in a time where soc pcs cost less than 10$ a pop. So there is no need to fumble with init on that level. I haven't touched init or even runlevels for just about 10 years now - and I do lots of server stuff.
These days im running all my services in VirtualBox and copy, booting and ditching entire VMs at my whim. Fiddling with init would be a waste of time.
If you have a stripped down serverconfig that you have to distribute and scale, I doubt systemd will seriously get in your way. Yes, you have to hook your init stuff somewhere and yes you'll have to read about how systemd does things at this level, but on a dedicated server that might aswell happen in userspace or somewhere late in systemd boot. I'm sure systemd offers hooks for quick late-boot custom fiddling of some sort.
Bottom line:
If finally all the Linux proggers get on the same page I'm all for it. If that page happes to be systemd, so be it. Simply the benefits of all getting behind systemd will move Linux forward faster than ever - that's my newest prediction anyway.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
Systemd is the reason Linus is now using FreeBSD at home.
Forgive me for asking but, what is systemd's main benefit? If i don't mind that my system boots up slower and in a sequential order, how does that affect the systemd's benefits for other users?
I really don't understand that statement. It sounds like nonsense to me. Please tell me because I honestly don't know what the snot he is talking about.
If systemd's main benefit was to obscure the boot process to prevent users from knowing what was going on during the boot process in order to squeeze in weird or unwanted code, then it would make sense that they don't want any users to know about that potentially questionable stuff so letting them use init would be detrimental to their efforts.
I can't see how that benefits me though. I don't care about what benefits them. If i'm trying to build a secure, manageable system, i'm looking for something that benefits me.
Last I checked, init system policy is still a hotly debated topic in the Debian community. https://wiki.debian.org/Debate... From my reading, the extremes tend toward "it makes everything easier, using anything else is a waste of everyone's time" on one end and "it's a short-sighted and wrong solution that's toxic for the community" on the other.
If you don't like systemd, use Freebsd. systems without cannot be considered Linux, developers should remove compatabilty for non-systemd Linux asap. "systemd... not just an init system anymore, but the basic userspace building block to build an OS from" "building a simple OS based on systemd will involve much fewer packages than a traditional Linux did. Fewer packages makes it easier to build your system, gets rid of interdependencies and of much of the different behaviour of every component involved." Source: http://0pointer.de/blog/projec...
Solaris works beautifully, is more stable, better features and actually works, whereas Linux kernel based operating systems are unstable, buggy as hell and doesn't have a real memory manager. Linux kernel based operating systems are left with the "let me guess" memory manager and "oh hell, I fucked up, let me kill something and hope you don't notice - oom killer".
Someday, perhaps 30 or 40 years from now Linux kernel based operating systems will be as stable as Solaris was back in the late 90s (SunOS 2.6) and maybe even the early 2000s (SunOS 5.8), but I'm not going to hold my breath.
Couldn't journald be modified to output text?
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
If the community get's behind systemd, it works and is/becomes usable and apps start relying on it being there - so what?
by taking over and forcing out all other options, it becomes a monoculture. and that, as we know from decades of experience where monoculture OSes have created cartels and monopolies, is incredibly dangerous.
i dedicated three years of my life - without proper financial recognition - to breaking the NT Domains monopoly, saving companies world-wide billions of dollars in the process. it is also not very well-known that i dedicated another year reverse-engineering the Exchange 5.5 protocol.
this dedication gave people a choice: they could choose to remain on monoculture monopolistic insecure proprietary and expensive per-seat-licensed servers, or they could choose to move over to software libre on any number of POSIX-compliant OSes including HPUX, AIX, Solaris, BSDs and GNU/Linux OSes - the *exact* opposite of a monopolistic monoculture. they could also choose to move to any number of proprietary solutions from companies such as Tarantella, Honeywell, Network Appliances and many more - all companies who got together because i pioneered the reverse-engineering (and wasn't murdered for doing so) which forced Microsoft to start doing proper documentation, and to sponsor CIFS conferences.
now i am witnessing a process by which everyone in the GNU/Linux community, by working in a totally dedicated way in "their corner" that has to be respected precisely *because* it is so dedicated, yet as a whole *all* of us have gone "hmmm, i'm working in my corner, the global problem isn't my problem: i'm making local decisions, here, which make my life easy and i'm doing what i think is best", totally forgetting that the overall consequences are like a shoal of fish: EVERYBODY has "flipped" - all at once - and the direction is a dangerous one that no one person has any responsibility or control over, because we are *not* a company, we do *not* have a "Board of Directors who can give us orders that we are required to follow or be fired", we are a bazaar - a self-organised group of self-organised individuals with independent free will and highly-focussed responsibilities.
the "flip" is to a dangerous monoculture position with, as we are now witnessing, absolutely zero choice (bad choices are no choice at all) - which i've warned about well over a year ago, and was told, basically, to "fuck off". well... now we begin to see the consequences.
i am running fvwm2 - i have been for 20 years - and i am using angband.pl's recompiled versions of critical dependencies (udevd and others) all of which have "--no-systemd" in the configure.ac files. so i will not be concerned about trojans that attack vulnerabilities in systemd, exploiting the new features such as allowing the firewall to be disabled and much, much more. but you - all you who trust the systemd authors and the desktop environments that now operate exclusively on systemd? you should be concerned.
just change the default settings... journald works quite well but the default are retarded, they look like they were choose to sell rehl7 support or certification
So while I'm sure the systemd zealots would love to see KDE, Gnome3, etc. only work with systemd and drop support for all other distros, this doesn't appear to be happening.
Actually not a single person in the world wants to see that. It's just your hatred against those people who don't have a problem and actually see the upsides to redesigning the back end of Linux.
hate on hater.
This is confirmed, along with the difficulty of unfurling the systemd init tools to try and start the fractured daemon cleanly in a debugger.
I have never understood why the Devuan fork needed to be made to address the issue of systemd dependence in Debian. All that group of people needed to do was commit to maintain non-systemd packages in Debian then they'd have the best of both worlds.
SURELY NOT!!!!!
Original text:
At the same time, bricks that worked for years without now just get ruined, since, as pointed out by Edmunson, adding systemd as "optional extra defeats its main benefit
A sane edit:
At the same time, systems that worked for years without systemd no longer work, since, as pointed out by Edunson, "[adding systemd as an] optional extra defeats its main benefit"
Thanks for the interesting posts!
You wrote:
I have the exact opposite experience. I am going to guess that you write end-user accessible software? I write deep infrastructure that goes on servers nobody logs in to. It's always been easier on linux than windows, by rather a lot.
Having to write to a layer that only exists to provide services to end users adds needless complexity to deep infrastructure. Complexity is the enemy of both reliability and security. So while I don't care what is done to support end users - more power to them, I say! - I don't want to run systemd on my servers which nobody ever, ever logs in to. It's the same reason I don't want to run pre-nano windows servers.
But now that Snover and Russinovich have given me nanoserver, and linux is increasingly dependent on systemd, maybe it's time to abandon linux in the server room. Red Hat costs more than Windows anyway at this point in raw server license costs; the cost of RHEL has already driven us out of OpenLDAP and samba and RHEVM, we replaced all that with Windows server2012 when Microsoft offered us the same services at half the cost.
It doesn't seem like servers are the target environment for linux any more... it seems like the new target is college student laptops, where systemd makes perfect sense and provides great features.
Bodhi Linux www.bodhilinux.com has a few options for legacy and modern hardware support with no Systemd (Ubuntu 14.04) iirc.
http://www.bodhilinux.com/down... and the info on the images http://www.bodhilinux.com/w/se...
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Slackware runs KDE or xfce and stays up to date. They are working on a new release, no systemd in sight.
In the USA, we like stuff watered down, like beer, television, and freedom.
What we've learned from Apple is that they've totally abandoned the enterprise market.
FWIW, I have not seen any advantages to systemd, and I have not heard of any advantages that I would personally find advantageous. And there do seem to be potential problems.
E,g, faster boot times don't impress me at all. I'd be more impressed by longer up times. I find binary logs dubious, and many people have reported problems with them. Etc.
I have not personally had any actual problems with systemd, but it's not clear how I'd resolve them were they to occur.
So I'm both dubious about the advantages and worried about possible disadvantages. Sufficiently so that if a BSD supported the ext4 file system I would have a test installation running. But not yet sufficiently to reformat my file systems.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
I disagree on the "full-throttle" part. That's be fine on consumer desktops. But Linux is mostly about production servers. Yes, yes... I know... mainstream Linux on the desktop is "just around the corner" and all that. :)
I have no great love for sysV init scripts. Getting rid of them would break a few things in my world. But really, those things could probably stand a new look and update anyway. But my second-to-main issue with systemd is that it's just somewhat half-baked and obtuse. There's a lot of "don't look behind the curtain, just trust us that it'll work" to it. That'd be tolerable in a consumer OS, or even in a consumer-targeted Linux distort like Mint, but not in bloody RHEL and Debian!
My biggest gripe about systemd, though, is its counterpart in crime: journald. Binary log files are the work of the devil and journald needs to die in a fire. And no one... not even a couple of Red Hat engineers I've spoken with... has been able to give be a non-hackish, production-worthy, way of ripping journald out of the thing and replacing it with syslog.
Name one commercial version of Unix that still is supported that uses init?
Sco Unixware is the only thing that comes close but I do not htink it is supported anymore.
Solaris left init in 2008
Apple left init in 2006
NetBSD left init for object oriented macros in init for a hybrid approach around 2007
If Init is so great why is everyone leaving?
The reason is init was not designed for desktops or servers with more than a dozen applications. What if your laptop goes to sleep and wakes up on a different network? How can init with 200 lines of if/fi scripts handle something liek this? WHat if your network goes down on your server? What if your web server is hacked? What if your Oracle RDMS takes a dive?
Writting every possible conceivable combination of events with nested if/fi statements is luducrious! An event driven system makes sense.
FYI Init is not a glorified autoexec.bat for starting up. Something needs to tell the kernel which daemons to start and which arguments to pass on. Those who say otherwise do not know what Init does or it's intended use.
So Apple went 1st and everyone but Linux followed.
http://saveie6.com/
That's interesting. In the past, KDE has tried to make their software not dependent on linux functionality so that KDE can work in other places, like BSD and -- god help us -- Windows.
Since I only used KDE on linux, that's kind of frustrating. E.g. KDE refused to use FUSE (Filesystem in Userspace) to access remote files because FUSE wouldn't work on all their platforms (back in 2006). Instead, KDE rolls its own remote access solution which only truly works with KDE-aware applications. In contrast, GNOME uses FUSE behind the scenes so that non-GNOME can seamlessly access the remote files.
So, KDE refused to use FUSE because that was too linux specific (at the time) but now requires systemd? Ugh.
I don't have a problem with systemd, and I'm all for focusing on functionality for the setups that most users actually use (e.g. Windows' lack of FUSE shouldn't stop KDE from using FUSE on Linux, BSD, etc.), but they should come up with a consistent policy for when they rely on an external dependency and when they don't.
(Aside: I wish there was some way users could fund fixes for specific bugs/implementation of specific features on KDE. That way we wouldn't have to wait a decade to get features users have been clamoring for.)
The worst example of that is MongoDB. When you have the lock file, it outputs this clear message to stderr:
old lock file: /var/lib/mongo/mongod.lock. probably means unclean shutdown recommend removing file and running --repair
You know exactly what the problem is and what actions to take. With systemd, that message is swallowed so you're left guessing as to why it didn't start. There is no message saved in the console.
How hardware friendly are they?
The only thing keeping me on linux is the thought of going back to the days of having to check if hardware worked before buying it ( plus all the hardware I have now ).
>Couldn't journald be modified to output text?
Not really. But what would be the point in that? If you want unindexed text logs just direct journald to forward all log-messages to syslog, and turn off the binary journald logs. All that it requires is a trivial change in journald.conf
The problems with journald outputting text logs are several: /dev/ksmg (kernel) and /dev/log. That is why the kernel stores all its early boot logs in binary form in the kernel ring-buffer that are then later extracted by special tools like dmesg.
The most important thing is that it is more or less impossible to do right during early boot where journald is receiving messages from both
Another problem is Linux kernel limitations on handling devices. Only one program at a time can read from /dev/log, or messages will lost and randomly misdirected. That means that journald that collects logs from /dev/log before rootfs is mounted and Rsyslog running, can't later hand over control of /dev/log to Rsyslog without losing log messages.
The rather ingenious thing about journald is that it can collect and collate /dev/log info from earliest boot and in initrd, to after the rootfs has been unmounted. You can also have full logging available in initrd which is rather nice if you have to debug from there.
If you want "metal-to-metal" logging something designed like journald is a good idea: If you made journald to be a super-syslog client with text output, you would prevent end-users in choosing between Rsyslog or Syslog-NG or whatever they can use with journald now. Same if they cooperated with the Rsyslog team so Rsyslog could collect from early boot and pivot back and forth from initrd like journald can. Then you couldn't use syslog-ng etc.
As systemd's journald is designed you can choose any syslog(3) compatible logger to work with journald. You can freely choose between either binary or text logs for e.g. legacy scripts to work.
"Unix basically is Linux these days."
BSD is Unix these days. Linux is trying to be the new Windows.
The problem the non-systemd distros are facing with running a modern desktop are entirely their own fault. Gnome and KDE developers pleaded for years that non-systemd distros or anybody else should start to maintain ConsoleKit which now have been abandonware for almost 4 years.
The non-systemd distros ought to realize that it is entirely up to them to maintain their own alternative software stack, and even help out upstreams projects like KDE to support them.
At the moment only a single guy is maintaining CK2 and sending patches to KDE so KDE will work with CK2.
People whine about "Linux is all about choice", but when it comes to maintain those choices they all shy away with a "I am not a programmer", "No time", "No money" etc.
So if you want to run a modern desktop in 2016 on a non-systemd distro, you better start contributing towards it.
The same thing goes for OS containers, the new cgroups API and what not. If you want that stuff, don't expect it to magically being made by benevolent pixies nor developers from systemd-distros.
You're likely being forced into systemd because the powers that be want to make sure they will have access to your systems.
I use Linux because I am free to use it the way I want and it is trusted because source is available.
I expect DRM will get wedged into systemd so you can't avoid Big Brother.
Linux will then be a "Trusted OS" because proprietary DRM code will be running underneath everything we do.
You will not be able to stop it without breaking all the applications which play video, music, download files, etc.
I do not trust Hollywood to be in my system, watching my every move.
If everything is tied together in a binary it can't be avoided.
Go well
"secretary at MalwareBytes took a look at his source code & said it looked all good" - by Coren22 (1625475) on Wednesday November 18, 2015
Mr. Steven Burn of Malwarebytes
"I've been asked to further clarify so for the record yes I've seen the code & yes it is safe." FROM http://forum.hosts-file.net/vi...
---
"I guess we should avoid your crap it looks like malware." - by Coren22 (1625475) on Monday November 02, 2015 @03:52PM (#50850445)
60++ reputable sources say different:
64-bit model https://www.virustotal.com/en/...
+
32-bit model https://www.virustotal.com/en/...
&
Installer-> http://f.virscan.org/APKHostsF...
MalwareBytes' hpHosts Admin (MalwareBytes employee) hosts & recommends it -> http://hosts-file.net/?s=Downl...
---
"MiTM... his software provides" - by Coren22 (1625475) on Wednesday November 18, 2015
Hardcoded favs users provide = REVERSE DNS verified & my ware filters 5,500++ false positives - security site hosts data = false positives filtered.
---
"Apk doesn't think DNS servers are worth running & believes Microsoft Active Directory can run w/out DNS." - by Coren22 (1625475) on Tuesday October 27, 2015
Show us where I say it? Not illogic logic but where I literally say it. I say AD needs internal DNS far back as 2007
http://forums.tweaktown.com/wi...
See "To warn users who have ActiveDirectory/AD LAN-WAN setups to NOT use external DNS servers" there.
---
"privilege escalation's a bad thing" - by Coren22 on Tuesday September 22, 2015
How else can I programmatically update hosts?
"requires elevation to write hosts" - by Coren22 (1625475) on Wednesday September 23, 2015
Hypocrite later admits it - hosts needs it vs. WFP/SFP not my ware. Users set it not programmatic impersonation. Security wares need it.
APK
P.S.=>
"modding you down for trolling in your signature" - by Dog-Cow (21281) on Wednesday November 25, 2015
What others like Dog-Cow (old acc't. not a new sockpuppet from you) thinks of your signatures on me
... apk
See subject: Says all that needs saying - he's onto you trolls around here and you couldn't stop me from doing well there, lol @ you ALL...
* :)
See that subject again? You WISH you were me (especially you AmicusNYCL - you're JUST LIKE Coren22 - lots of "talk", which any FOOL can do - but nothing you ever could backup with verifiable facts that you are indeed, a coder - let alone any GOOD @ it... lol!)
Coren22 claims to be a 'security guru' & MCSE? Hell, I had to show him HOW to trace my app for forensics purposes... he's full of it.
IF you guys were ANY GOOD? You'd find a bug in my work... funny - none here ever has or will (code is bulletproof & bugfree, as is all my work).
APK
P.S.=> Face facts: Nothing you trolling worms can do can affect me - get it? Good! Least of all your effete vain impotent abused moderations... I'll just burn you out of your modpoints (I've done so literally 175++ @ a time, lol) - so keep it up! I figure it this way - I can easily repost as much as I like & when you're all spent? I've saved someone else the bs you trolls foist on them - want to mod me down validly?? PROVE ME WRONG (none of you ever has or will - especially on hosts)... apk
I read somewhere recently that Debian was going to maintain both a systemd and non-systemd os. I also think I read where Slachware is non-systend.
There used to be only gnome and KDE as desktop environments for Linux. We now have gnome, kde, cinnamon, mate, unity, xfce and lxde. The last two can be considered more light-weight than the first five.
Gnome depends on systemd. KDE is considering it. Unity will depend on systemd, if it doesn't already. Xfce will probably not have a mandatory systemd dependency in the future. The main question is basically what cinnamon and mate will decide to do. Does anyone have an overview of the roadmap of these projects?
My apologies to people who use window managers or less known DEs.
Every Linux distribution is bullshit. I just tried to install Krita and it fucking wants to install PulseAudio. What the fuck does audio have anything to do with Krita? Bunch of stupid fucks at Debian and Ubuntu.
after spending a few bucks on a Software defined radio and researching the apps available for SDRs and trying both Linux and windows and building from source on Linux VS installing binaries it has come to light that it dont matter if you build from source or install binaries from package managers SDR on Linux SUCKS!, and on windows it performs better (not great but better) and i dont have the time or inclination to roll my own anymore, so i became operating system agnostic, i dont care anymore if it is Linux or windows, whatever OS has the apps pre-rolled that work the best is all i are about, and so far WIndows wins in the SDR dept, but i still do all my general purpose computing on Linux for the time being = the love affair with linux is over, i dont have the time to fiddlefuck with Linux anymore, so whatever OS has the right app for the job gets the job, if not it gets pushed to the back burner
Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
stderr and stdout are all present in the journal.
Why throw away POSIX and the UNIX philosophy?
FreeBSD works like all hell. No wonder Red Hat is trying to pulling the old "call non-believers luddites" stunt.
I run MATE because it sucks less than KDE, or Gnome - a lot less.
What is not "modern" about MATE? What am I missing?
Features for the sake of features do not interest me. What functional aspect of a DE would actually help me be more productive, that I don't have with MATE?
Don't get me wrong, there are other good desktops, just not KDE or Gnome.
and avoid the drama. The Linux kernel has become a junkyard anyway.
an ill wind that blows no good
But Gnome3 sure sucks. So does KDE.
If Linus or someone adult enough to not pretend an angry "go off and die somewhere" is a serious death threat was running the project there would be little or no fuss.
However systemd is not about consistency, it's about rapid expansion before the existing parts are truly finished. There is no real benefit to one team being responsible for most of linux infrastructure if it's full of ad-hoc bits glued on as best as they can fit.
The community doesn't get a say. It's a small team with RedHat using it's market share to impose it on the community. The lack of depth and small size of that team really shows with things like the "su" stupidity recently - the project has extended far beyond their competence while instead of dealing with that by getting help or collaborating they are actively pushing other developers away.
It's just like Pulseaudio before Lennart left to work on other things, or NetworkManager before Lennart left to work on other things. Rapid expansion and moving target inflicted on users as "stable" when it is no such thing.
Absolutely. I'm already working on getting DBus out of my system, one dependency at a time. If I can handle that, the SystemD isn't even a question.
"secretary at MalwareBytes took a look at his source code & said it looked all good" - by Coren22 (1625475) on Wednesday November 18, 2015
Mr. Steven Burn of Malwarebytes
"I've been asked to further clarify so for the record yes I've seen the code & yes it is safe." FROM http://forum.hosts-file.net/vi...
---
"I guess we should avoid your crap it looks like malware." - by Coren22 (1625475) on Monday November 02, 2015 @03:52PM (#50850445)
60++ reputable sources say different:
64-bit model https://www.virustotal.com/en/...
+
32-bit model https://www.virustotal.com/en/...
&
Installer-> http://f.virscan.org/APKHostsF...
MalwareBytes' hpHosts Admin (MalwareBytes employee) hosts & recommends it -> http://hosts-file.net/?s=Downl...
---
"MiTM... his software provides" - by Coren22 (1625475) on Wednesday November 18, 2015
Hardcoded favs users provide = REVERSE DNS verified & my ware filters 5,500++ false positives - security site hosts data = false positives filtered.
---
"privilege escalation's a bad thing" - by Coren22 on Tuesday September 22, 2015
How else can I programmatically update hosts?
"requires elevation to write hosts" - by Coren22 (1625475) on Wednesday September 23, 2015
Hypocrite later admits it - hosts needs it vs. WFP/SFP not my ware. Users set it not programmatic impersonation. Security wares need it.
---
"Apk doesn't think DNS servers are worth running & believes Microsoft Active Directory can run w/out DNS." - by Coren22 (1625475) on Tuesday October 27, 2015
Show us where I say it? Not illogic logic but where I literally say it. I say AD needs internal DNS far back as 2007
http://forums.tweaktown.com/wi...
See "To warn users who have ActiveDirectory/AD LAN-WAN setups to NOT use external DNS servers" there.
APK
P.S.=>
"modding you down for trolling in your signature" - by Dog-Cow (21281) on Wednesday November 25, 2015
What others like Dog-Cow (old acc't. not a new sockpuppet from you) thinks of your signatures about me
... apk
Leonard? Is that you?
Boo hoo waah waah change wahh boo hoo I'm old boo hoo change waahh wahh boo hoo.
Most systemd critics recognize sysvinit's shortcomings and wish to have it replaced. The argument is not over whether it needs to be replaced, but over *how* to replace it, and *what* to replace it with. The very author you replied to says he wants sysvinit replaced. NO ONE SAID init is great. You are arguing against a position no one holds.
It's easy to take POSIX compliance for granted, but it's better to at least "aim toward it" than give it up completely. I, for one, am not ready to give up completely on portability, which, by the way, is what the systemd developers are doing.
What's the upsides?
The major downsides are that it's impossible to figure out what's going on and that the log files are binary instead of using syslog.
If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
Might be the choice of distro that I'll go for next install then.
If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
Lol, but what about FreeBSD and such, then ? I can tell KDE hase a HUGE user basis among the (still many) users of this system. So what then ? Because I am sure that the FreeBSD devs will never ever start adopting systemd ...
Then separate the systemd parts into multiple, independent, programs. That way, I can run init-scripts, kdbus and new versions of KDE in the same system.
There are two reasons why I will not run systemd on my computer:
* it consists of multiple highly-coupled programs
* some of those programs are terribly low quality
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Slackware - one of the oldest and most stable distros out there. I know the "stable" branch hasn't been updated in a while, the but the "unstable" (-current) branch is as stable as most other distros "stable" releases, and presently nearing a new release. This is being typed on a 64 bit - current system!
OK, the official version only has KDE4, but packages for KDE 5 are available, if you want it, along with just about any other desktop environment you could want. It boots just as fast as any systemd distro ( I use Mageia for "quick and dirty" installs), without all the aggro associated with systemd. Its clean, its simple and it works!
If KDE becomes dependent on systemd, then I shall simply switch to xfce.
My hardware, my choice!
--
Pete
I'm very happy to see the Devuan project progressing!
As a long-time Linux user, albeit a layman, I was very frustrated to find apt-get upgrade resulted in a 60 second system stall at every boot time, as systemd tried to interfere with my network adapter. Call me old fashioned but if it ain't broke don't fix it! Besides it's all about freedom of choice right?
As the response to your bug report says:
This is free software: scratch your own itch. Don't expect that others scratch your itch.
Devuan doesn't support any of the interfaces that KDE needs, that can be fixed by either:
1. the KDE team adding special support for Devuan
or
2. Devuan adding any of the packages KDE needs to support power management.
RESOLVED, DOWNSTREAM seems perfectly reasonable.
I'd expect the VUA's to have a fix for Devuan in short order.
Watch this Heartland Institute video
you need to stop confusing systemd (the binary) and systemd (the project) - it certainly was a mistake to call them both the same name and has caused tons of confusion which trolls use to post crap.
"The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
Thanks for pointing out exactly why using systemd has a downside. The whole idea of one monolithic project that wants to do everything is wrong, wrong, wrong.
Why don't the systemd people just go build their own OS? I'd have no objection to that. Instead, they piss all over the tried and true engineering practices which brought open source and linux where it is today, or at least a couple of years ago. If linux had started with systemd 20 years ago, we'd all be using a BSD variant.
The early Linux hackers were smart to make the heterogeneous choices they did, it made linux distros dependable and evolvable. System components were independent, which meant you could replace faulty ones, and you could incrementally improve working ones without impacting anyone else. Now? Not so much. And that's bad, because Linux is losing the ability to evolve due to the ball and chain that is systemd.
Systemd is like a virus eating linux distros from the inside out. When it's replaced 90% of the services any one application might need, it will be game over. We'll have one single, bloated, all in one OS that won't run on anything but the beefiest hardware and will require constant reboots to fix "issues" nobody will be able to diagnose. We the community will have to rebuild a new alternative open source ecosystem from scratch, wasting the good work everyone put into Linux since the 90s.
Meh, now I'm depressed.
why not do some research before typing? Don't rely on what any poster says. Try here as a start http://0pointer.de/blog/projec...
"The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
There's no benefit in getting the community behind systemd, it should just die. Try installing a Linux with systemd on a low powered smartwatch. What? Systemd doesn't support doing that? That in a nutshell IS the problem. Linux distros that only run on a standard virtual system that pretends to be a desktop PC are the past, not the future.
Just use the latest syslog/rsyslog, they extract all the logs from the journal themselves these days without journald being configured to forward them. Try using journalctl to read the journal, its a powerful tool
"The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
by taking over and forcing out all other options, it becomes a monoculture. and that, as we know from decades of experience where monoculture OSes have created cartels and monopolies, is incredibly dangerous
And we also have decades of experience with Linux no-culture. It failed to gain more than 1% of the total market. Perhaps it's time to try something else?
They deserve to die. Kill them.
Or fork everything.
You should atleast beat the shit out of them.
Killing them would be good.
Reiser wasn't above killing.
You could use Windows or MacOS. Both don't have systemd.
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem.
As we've all learned from Apple: No half-assed shit. Do or don't do.
I believe that was taught by Yoda, not Apple.
It's easy to get confused between the two:
One is small, green with pointy ears. The other is Yoda.
To quote Mr Tovalds himself:
You can say the word "systemd", It's not a four-letter word. Seven letters. Count them.
I have to say, I don't really get the hatred of systemd. I think it improves a lot on the state of init, and no, I don't see myself getting into that whole area.
Yeah, it may have a few odd corners here and there, and I'm sure you'll find things to despise. That happens in every project. I'm not a huge fan of the binary logging, for example. But that's just an example. I much prefer systemd's infrastructure for starting services over traditional init, and I think that's a much bigger design decision.
The result of a direct question which skirted around saying systemd only a few months ago.
Or one of the many BSDs.
That's going to be tricky.
The key point is that the poster wanted a *modern desktop environment*.
So probably Gnome 3, KDE Plasma 5, Unity 8, or whatever the newer versions that are going to show up in 2016.
And most of these desktop try not to reinvent the wheel, but re-use the building blocks that systemd (I mean not only PID1, but all the various other tools that are hosted under the same umbrella) provides.
(e.g.: Cgroups handling, automatic on-the-go creation of isolation silos, hardware management, etc.)
Linux is much more than plain old POSIX. It provides tons of really useful advanced features (containers, capabilities, etc.) that where'nt part of posix. Systemd (project umbrella) provides tons of tools to leverage these function, that where simply completely underused back at the era of "cobbled together convoluted shell scripts". These functionality are useful, and together with the level of automation that systemd provides, makes life of desktop environment maker much easier.
BSD is also much more than plain old POSIX. But it's *differently* more so (jails instead of containers, different API for capabilities, etc.)
Handling these OSes would require either tons of API-specific code and wrappers, next to the simple systemd-leveraging (i.e.: what TFA complain against)
or requires that BSD also progressively migrates toward some higher level tools the simplify the handling of these functionnailties (i.e.: the various systemd alternatives that some time pop out. But still nothing concrete as of yet).
So probably, in 2016:
- you could either use Linux with KDE/Gnome/etc. but have a hard dependency on at least a dozen of deamons handled by the systemd project.
- or you could use one of the niche Linux distro with a unusual very geeky desktop environment (e.g.: some obscure tiling windows manager, and emacs with tons of plugin as the default browser/email client/file manager)
- or you could use BSD but you'll get an oldish release of MATE / KDE sunset.
And only the first of the three above get the best hardware (and, e.g., suspend/resume) support, due to having the most paid developpers working on it.
But, probably around 2018:
- you could use BSD with their very own "systemB" (project that give the same kind of abstractions) with the latest Gnome 4, KDE Plasma 6, Unity 9 (now running on Wayland), etc.
- or you could one of the less mainstream Linux distribution that swaps the component of systemd project with component of alternatives giving the same advanced features.
- or actually hope that by then systemd will have been reviewed enough and cleaned. (One of my hopes, given how widespread it is going to be. On the other hand openssl *WAS* widespread when Heartbleed happened)
- or cheer for the OpenBSD guys as you follow them on a "Valhalla Rampage" blog about "LibreSyD" (like systemd, but with all the weird pieces of code removed).
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
I disagree on the "full-throttle" part. That's be fine on consumer desktops. But Linux is mostly about production servers. Yes, yes... I know... mainstream Linux on the desktop is "just around the corner" and all that. :)
Why are you disagreeing on something that you say is irrelevant to your servers?
I have no great love for sysV init scripts. Getting rid of them would break a few things in my world. But really, those things could probably stand a new look and update anyway. But my second-to-main issue with systemd is that it's just somewhat half-baked and obtuse. There's a lot of "don't look behind the curtain, just trust us that it'll work" to it.
So your world is improving, as sysvinit is even more "don't look behind the curtain, just trust us that it'll work". So much so that you also have to believe that for any distribution that used sysvinit, as every one of them had to implement the "behind the curtain" part, and was saying to you "just trut us that it'll work". Duplicated functionality in every distro, that have now disappeared for a big part. So now it's far better, in every kind of GNU OS on Linux use case, even on non GNU ones.
My biggest gripe about systemd, though, is its counterpart in crime: journald. Binary log files are the work of the devil and journald needs to die in a fire. And no one... not even a couple of Red Hat engineers I've spoken with... has been able to give be a non-hackish, production-worthy, way of ripping journald out of the thing and replacing it with syslog.
syslogd is antiquated, no distribution uses that by default anymore on Linux distros (LFS is not a distro). They use syslog-ng or rsyslog, and they plug without any problem with journald. Ripping out journald makes no sense and actually would put you back to the bad days of logging before systemd: no automatic logging of stdout and stderr, loss of kernel boot messages, no display of last messages from your services, impersonation of other processes possible in logs...
I agree with binary log files having some serious issues, and I can easily imagine that replacing the logging system with it's predecessor is an ugly hack.
I wonder though how difficult it would be to replace journald with an interface-compatible logger that actually outputs good old fashioned text logs instead? Knowing nothing about journald or it's interfaces, it seems like it shouldn't be a huge problem - just fork off journald_txt, changing only the actual file output components. I would assume all the relevant data still enters the logging system, I mean there *is* a dedicated journald log reader, right?
Why are you believing nobody else thought of that in the first place? If it's because you're clueless, why are you criticizing a topic you have no knowledge about?
Of course there is a dedicated journald log reader, it's called journalctl, this is the most basic thing to know about journald before even attempting to criticize it.
Just installing another syslog daemon (like rsyslog) is enough to removes all these concerns, because yes, several people (serious ones) have already done the work instead of complaining based on ignorance.
This is confirmed, along with the difficulty of unfurling the systemd init tools to try and start the fractured daemon cleanly in a debugger.
What is confirmed?
systemd by default sends stdout and stderr to the journal, contrary to daemon launch with init shell scripts.
The AC is repeating sth false, as several of them do in every systemd thread.
I don't know what their agenda is.
What's even better, the system default for this behaviour is configurable, and it's also configurable per service.
If the community get's behind systemd, it works and is/becomes usable and apps start relying on it being there - so what?
by taking over and forcing out all other options, it becomes a monoculture. and that, as we know from decades of experience where monoculture OSes have created cartels and monopolies, is incredibly dangerous.
So POSIX is incredibly dangerous? Your argument is flawed from the start.
systemd provides a standard API, and nothing about a standard API is dangerous, a standard prevents the creation of cartels and monopolies, so what you say is already the contrary to the probable outcome.
now i am witnessing a process by which everyone in the GNU/Linux community, by working in a totally dedicated way in "their corner" that has to be respected precisely *because* it is so dedicated, yet as a whole *all* of us have gone "hmmm, i'm working in my corner, the global problem isn't my problem: i'm making local decisions, here, which make my life easy and i'm doing what i think is best", totally forgetting that the overall consequences are like a shoal of fish: EVERYBODY has "flipped" - all at once - and the direction is a dangerous one that no one person has any responsibility or control over, because we are *not* a company, we do *not* have a "Board of Directors who can give us orders that we are required to follow or be fired", we are a bazaar - a self-organised group of self-organised individuals with independent free will and highly-focussed responsibilities.
the "flip" is to a dangerous monoculture position with, as we are now witnessing, absolutely zero choice (bad choices are no choice at all) - which i've warned about well over a year ago, and was told, basically, to "fuck off". well... now we begin to see the consequences.
What is this nonsense about? I've seen nothing of the like, and I make all my OS from source since 15+ years.
i am running fvwm2 - i have been for 20 years - and i am using angband.pl's recompiled versions of critical dependencies (udevd and others) all of which have "--no-systemd" in the configure.ac files. so i will not be concerned about trojans that attack vulnerabilities in systemd, exploiting the new features such as allowing the firewall to be disabled and much, much more. but you - all you who trust the systemd authors and the desktop environments that now operate exclusively on systemd? you should be concerned.
Talking about security in systemd compared to sysvinit shell scripts is just laughable. Fortunately you've not been 20 years in the security IT field.
Just look at most trojans and rootkits, before saying nonsense like that. sysvinit scripts are a security nightmare in themselves, and are impossible to audit.
BTW most of them don't work anymore in systemd, especially if you've hardened your systemd service files.
Frankly that is intolerable even on the desktop. Not because of aunt Tillie directly, but because someone inevitably has to fix something that does not work. And with systemd one is back to Windows, and hitting the reboot button enough times that it kinda splutters back to life (or go for a full reinstall).
Systemd is good for two things, web terminals and *aaS conainers.
What's the upsides?
The major downsides are that it's impossible to figure out what's going on and that the log files are binary instead of using syslog.
Don't worry, you can go play with your favorite DE, real sysadmins are taking care of systemd for you.
So while I'm sure the systemd zealots would love to see KDE, Gnome3, etc. only work with systemd and drop support for all other distros, this doesn't appear to be happening. In the case of KDE, ConsoleKit2 is supported (and therefor Funtoo, Gentoo, Arch with OpenRC, etc. will continue to work just fine).
There lies the problem, you anti-systemd zealot are taking an antagonistic stance to all this, assuming that what you call "systemd zealots" would love to see KDE work only with systemd. That makes no sense at all, and that would mean DE devs are "systemd zealots". But all the DEs communication and actions points to you being completely wrong.
Thay actually work instead of complaining uselessly and spouting antagonist nonsense about systemd.
Once again that faggot Lennart has poisoned the well. The diarrhea that spews from his gaping goatse-esque anus continues to be slurped up by the shit eaters at RedHat. Fun fact, RedHat is actually named for the glory hole of the men's bathroom where the original development team would go to suck off anonymous faggots. Coincidentally, this was how they came across our dear boy Lennart. He popped his micropenis into a glory hole at one of the local LUG meetings and was quickly hired for his near insatiable desire for gay sex. In fact, the only thing Lennart likes more than a disease riddled cock in his ass is to write shitty code.
I.E. he has a 3 digit uid, newbie.
Watch this Heartland Institute video
See subject: Says all that needs saying - he's onto you trolls around here and you couldn't stop me from doing well there, lol @ you ALL...
* :)
See that subject again? You WISH you were me (especially you AmicusNYCL - you're JUST LIKE Coren22 - lots of "talk", which any FOOL can do - but nothing you ever could backup with verifiable facts that you are indeed, a coder - let alone any GOOD @ it... lol!)
Coren22 claims to be a 'security guru' & MCSE? Hell, I had to show him HOW to trace my app for forensics purposes... he's full of it.
IF you guys were ANY GOOD? You'd find a bug in my work... funny - none here ever has or will (code is bulletproof & bugfree, as is all my work).
APK
P.S.=> Face facts: Nothing you trolling worms can do can affect me - get it? Good! Least of all your effete vain impotent abused moderations... I'll just burn you out of your modpoints (I've done so literally 175++ @ a time, lol) - so keep it up! I figure it this way - I can easily repost as much as I like & when you're all spent? I've saved someone else the bs you trolls foist on them - want to mod me down validly?? PROVE ME WRONG (none of you ever has or will - especially on hosts)... apk
You're talking to lunatic trolls.
systemd sends stdout/stderr where you tell it to, by default to the journal.
Watch this Heartland Institute video
And of those extremes "it makes everything easier" comes from the people actually doing work and "it's a short-sighted and wrong solution that's toxic for the community" comes from a bunch of trolls.
Watch this Heartland Institute video
"secretary at MalwareBytes took a look at his source code & said it looked all good" - by Coren22 (1625475) on Wednesday November 18, 2015
Mr. Steven Burn of Malwarebytes
"I've been asked to further clarify so for the record yes I've seen the code & yes it is safe." FROM http://forum.hosts-file.net/vi...
---
"I guess we should avoid your crap it looks like malware." - by Coren22 (1625475) on Monday November 02, 2015 @03:52PM (#50850445)
60++ reputable sources say different:
64-bit model https://www.virustotal.com/en/...
+
32-bit model https://www.virustotal.com/en/...
&
Installer-> http://f.virscan.org/APKHostsF...
MalwareBytes' hpHosts Admin (MalwareBytes employee) hosts & recommends it -> http://hosts-file.net/?s=Downl...
---
"MiTM... his software provides" - by Coren22 (1625475) on Wednesday November 18, 2015
Hardcoded favs users provide = REVERSE DNS verified & my ware filters 5,500++ false positives - security site hosts data = false positives filtered.
---
"privilege escalation's a bad thing" - by Coren22 on Tuesday September 22, 2015
How else can I programmatically update hosts?
"requires elevation to write hosts" - by Coren22 (1625475) on Wednesday September 23, 2015
Hypocrite later admits it - hosts needs it vs. WFP/SFP not my ware. Users set it not programmatic impersonation. Security wares need it.
---
"Apk doesn't think DNS servers are worth running & believes Microsoft Active Directory can run w/out DNS." - by Coren22 (1625475) on Tuesday October 27, 2015
Show us where I say it? Not illogic logic but where I literally say it. I say AD needs internal DNS far back as 2007
http://forums.tweaktown.com/wi...
See "To warn users who have ActiveDirectory/AD LAN-WAN setups to NOT use external DNS servers" there.
APK
P.S.=>
"modding you down for trolling in your signature" - by Dog-Cow (21281) on Wednesday November 25, 2015
What others like Dog-Cow (old acc't. not a new sockpuppet from you) thinks of your signatures about me
... apk
Modern operating systems, like MS-Windows, or OSX, run far more apps, and work with far more hardware.
Systemd Linux is for pompous neck-beards.
Just something the Red Hat shills might want to think about before they try to shame FreeBSD users into submission.
It's a distinction that doesn't matter when you can't run the tools without systemd having control of pid 1.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Bad standards do not encourage varied implementations. E.g. systemd. Good standards do e.g. POSIX.
No one is talking about security of systemd vs init scripts. They are talking about security of systemd as a process manager. Which is not only not proven, some people do not like the design wrt security.
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
Bad standards do not encourage varied implementations. E.g. systemd. Good standards do
Well said.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
I think the linux ecosystem looks more and more like enterprise software because more and more, it is controlled by enterprise companies (RedHat, Oracle, IBM....)
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Linux has far more than 1% of the total market. Or are you referring just to desktops? If so, the under-the-hood systems have no bearing. The GUI and user applications are what matters to customers and the GUI churn on the main Linux desktops is worse than on Windows. Plus Linux doesn't come pre-installed on Best Buy computers. Get a contract for that and the 1% will steadily increase. You need a very very compelling reason to get end-users to install a new OS and the benefits Linux has over Windows only matter to techies. If you want better desktop usage, we need better applications (things LibreOffice vs OpenOffice is too complex and destroyed interest in some people I was about to convert) and contracts with retailers.
However, since all major distros have moved to systemd it can't be that bad as some people make it out to be
I always thought that it was because GNOME decided to require it, and for a user-focussed distro to not offer (the latest version of) GNOME would be suicide.
I never understood why people think they need a heavyweight desktop environment.
Your virginal basement dwelling tears are delicious. Systemd just works! The disasters you claimed that were going to happen never did. The world has moved on. You haven't. Nobody gives a shit about your boycott. Sysvinit is going to be just about as relevant as HP-UX, AIX, and Solaris, all dead products only used for legacy systems. Even fewer employers are going to give a shit about your obsession with kludgy sysvinit scripts than knowing dead unixes.
System D sounds like it's was a stop gap fix for a old issue that everyone liked so much they jest kept it... except for for 3 files (Autoexec.bat,config.sys command.com dos can have any number of files added or removed to set it up the way you want it... why can't linux do that?
I'm referring to classic desktops. Linux failed miserably there. On the other hand, Android is a smashing hit - it's the most widely deployed OS in the world now.
And no, I don't buy the "pre-installed in BestBuy" argument anymore - lots of companies (Dell included) tried to sell pre-installed Linux.
Have you considered improving Guix? It uses the much lighter weight DMD.
Why lie about it? systemd ignores stderr.
syslog hasn't been important in two decades. The systemd guys are correct in ignoring syslog.
stderr from services does not end-up in the journal. It is simply thrown away by systemd. Why do you think people have been complaining so loudly and for so long about this systemd policy?
> systemd sends stdout/stderr where you tell it to, by default to the journal.
No, it does not. If it did, do you really think people would complain so much about this systemd design problem? There's a good reason people are so angry at systemd. Not logging stderr, which is critical when managing a server, is one of the biggest reasons so many people are complaining about systemd.
No "people" are angry about this nonexistent "bug", only anonymous trolls.
Watch this Heartland Institute video
Or Slackware.
Why don't the systemd people just go build their own OS?
They could call it DeadRat Enterprise Lindows.
"secretary at MalwareBytes took a look at his source code & said it looked all good" - by Coren22 (1625475) on Wednesday November 18, 2015
Mr. Steven Burn of Malwarebytes
"I've been asked to further clarify so for the record yes I've seen the code & yes it is safe." FROM http://forum.hosts-file.net/vi...
---
"I guess we should avoid your crap it looks like malware." - by Coren22 (1625475) on Monday November 02, 2015 @03:52PM (#50850445)
60++ reputable sources say different:
64-bit model https://www.virustotal.com/en/...
+
32-bit model https://www.virustotal.com/en/...
&
Installer-> http://f.virscan.org/APKHostsF...
MalwareBytes' hpHosts Admin (MalwareBytes employee) hosts & recommends it -> http://hosts-file.net/?s=Downl...
---
"MiTM... his software provides" - by Coren22 (1625475) on Wednesday November 18, 2015
Hardcoded favs users provide = REVERSE DNS verified & my ware filters 5,500++ false positives - security site hosts data = false positives filtered.
---
"privilege escalation's a bad thing" - by Coren22 on Tuesday September 22, 2015
How else can I programmatically update hosts?
"requires elevation to write hosts" - by Coren22 (1625475) on Wednesday September 23, 2015
Hypocrite later admits it - hosts needs it vs. WFP/SFP not my ware. Users set it not programmatic impersonation. Security wares need it.
---
"Apk doesn't think DNS servers are worth running & believes Microsoft Active Directory can run w/out DNS." - by Coren22 (1625475) on Tuesday October 27, 2015
Show us where I say it? Not illogic logic but where I literally say it. I say AD needs internal DNS far back as 2007
http://forums.tweaktown.com/wi...
See "To warn users who have ActiveDirectory/AD LAN-WAN setups to NOT use external DNS servers" there.
APK
P.S.=>
"modding you down for trolling in your signature" - by Dog-Cow (21281) on Wednesday November 25, 2015
What others like Dog-Cow (old acc't. not a new sockpuppet from you) thinks of your signatures about me
... apk
LOL, bullshit - he was just redoing his site's pages code, lol you fool... the link is STILL there where he verified my code as safe http://forum.hosts-file.net/vi... and yes he still hosts http://hosts-file.net/?s=Downl... my ware too (and a newer even better versions coming very soon)...
APK
P.S.=> See subject "ne'er-do-well" big talker but can't back it up MORON troll AmicusNYCL (just like Coren22 - blowhards)... apk
From: services@it-mate.co.uk /. troll Coren22 now GLOATING)... apk ;o)
> To: apk4776239@hotmail.com
> Subject: RE: I have a new build ready also (adds ALL the filters both Henry & yourself gave me + more on the
> Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 16:13:50 +0000
>
> Alex,
> I've never even registered for SlashDot, much less posted on it
Guess what else stupid?
Take a look -> "I've been asked to further clarify so for the record yes I've seen the code & yes it is safe." FROM http://forum.hosts-file.net/vi...
Impersonating him was the BIG mistake you made Coren22... huge!
Thank you for being SO stupid...
APK
P.S.=> How fucking LOW can you go, for Pete's sake, Coren22? Impersonating a RESPECTED MEMBER OF THE SECURITY COMMUNITY NOW TOO ontop of your libelous lying immature childish signatures about me?? You're low & no man... apk
"secretary at MalwareBytes took a look at his source code & said it looked all good" - by Coren22 (1625475) on Wednesday November 18, 2015
Mr. Steven Burn of Malwarebytes
"yes I've seen the code & yes it is safe." FROM http://forum.hosts-file.net/vi...
---
"we should avoid your crap it looks like malware." - by Coren22 (1625475) on Monday November 02, 2015 @03:52PM (#50850445)
60++ reputable sources say different:
64-bit model https://www.virustotal.com/en/...
+
32-bit model https://www.virustotal.com/en/...
&
Installer-> http://f.virscan.org/APKHostsF...
MalwareBytes' hpHosts Admin (MalwareBytes employee) hosts & recommends it -> http://hosts-file.net/?s=Downl...
---
"privilege escalation's a bad thing" - by Coren22 on Tuesday September 22, 2015
How else programmatically update it?
"requires elevation to write hosts" - by Coren22 (1625475) on Wednesday September 23, 2015
Hypocrite later admits it - hosts do vs. WFP/SFP not my ware. Users set it not programmatic impersonation. Security wares need it.
Coren22 IMPERSONATES RESPECTED MEMBERS OF THE SECURITY COMMUNITY http://slashdot.org/comments.p...
---
"MiTM... his software provides" - by Coren22 (1625475) on Wednesday November 18, 2015
Hardcoded favs users provide = REVERSE DNS verified & my ware filters 5,500++ false positives - security site hosts data = false positives filtered.
---
"Apk doesn't think DNS servers are worth running & believes Microsoft Active Directory can run w/out DNS." - by Coren22 (1625475) on Tuesday October 27, 2015
Show us where I say it? Not illogic logic but where I say it. I say AD needs internal DNS far back as 2007
http://forums.tweaktown.com/wi...
See "To warn users who have ActiveDirectory/AD LAN-WAN setups to NOT use external DNS servers" there.
APK
P.S.=>
"modding you down for trolling in your signature" - by Dog-Cow (21281) on Wednesday November 25, 2015
Dog-Cow's (old acc't. no new sockpuppet from you) thoughts of your signatures about me
... apk
Coren22 IMPERSONATES RESPECTED MEMBERS OF THE SECURITY COMMUNITY http://slashdot.org/comments.p...
---
"privilege escalation's a bad thing" - by Coren22 on Tuesday September 22, 2015
How else programmatically update it?
"requires elevation to write hosts" - by Coren22 (1625475) on Wednesday September 23, 2015
Hypocrite later admits it - hosts do vs. WFP/SFP not my ware. Users set it not programmatic impersonation. Security wares need it.
---
"secretary at MalwareBytes took a look at his source code & said it looked all good" - by Coren22 (1625475) on Wednesday November 18, 2015
Mr. Steven Burn of Malwarebytes
"yes I've seen the code & yes it is safe." FROM http://forum.hosts-file.net/vi...
---
"we should avoid your crap it looks like malware." - by Coren22 (1625475) on Monday November 02, 2015 @03:52PM (#50850445)
60++ reputable sources say different:
64-bit model https://www.virustotal.com/en/...
+
32-bit model https://www.virustotal.com/en/...
&
Installer-> http://f.virscan.org/APKHostsF...
MalwareBytes' hpHosts Admin (MalwareBytes employee) hosts & recommends it -> http://hosts-file.net/?s=Downl...
---
"MiTM... his software provides" - by Coren22 (1625475) on Wednesday November 18, 2015
Hardcoded favs users provide = REVERSE DNS verified & my ware filters 5,500++ false positives - security site hosts data = false positives filtered.
---
"Apk doesn't think DNS servers are worth running & believes Microsoft Active Directory can run w/out DNS." - by Coren22 (1625475) on Tuesday October 27, 2015
Show us where I say it? Not illogic logic but where I say it. I say AD needs internal DNS far back as 2007
http://forums.tweaktown.com/wi...
See "To warn users who have ActiveDirectory/AD LAN-WAN setups to NOT use external DNS servers" there.
APK
P.S.=>
"modding you down for trolling in your signature" - by Dog-Cow (21281) on Wednesday November 25, 2015
Dog-Cow's (old acc't. no new sockpuppet from you) thoughts of your signatures about me
... apk
Coren22 IMPERSONATES RESPECTED MEMBERS OF THE SECURITY COMMUNITY http://slashdot.org/comments.p...
---
"privilege escalation's a bad thing" - by Coren22 on Tuesday September 22, 2015
How else programmatically update it?
"requires elevation to write hosts" - by Coren22 (1625475) on Wednesday September 23, 2015
Hypocrite later admits it - hosts do vs. WFP/SFP not my ware. Users set it not programmatic impersonation. Security wares need it.
---
"secretary at MalwareBytes took a look at his source code & said it looked all good" - by Coren22 (1625475) on Wednesday November 18, 2015
Mr. Steven Burn of Malwarebytes
"yes I've seen the code & yes it is safe." FROM http://forum.hosts-file.net/vi...
---
"we should avoid your crap it looks like malware." - by Coren22 (1625475) on Monday November 02, 2015 @03:52PM (#50850445)
60++ reputable sources say different:
64-bit model https://www.virustotal.com/en/...
+
32-bit model https://www.virustotal.com/en/...
&
Installer-> http://f.virscan.org/APKHostsF...
MalwareBytes' hpHosts Admin (MalwareBytes employee) hosts & recommends it -> http://hosts-file.net/?s=Downl...
---
"MiTM... his software provides" - by Coren22 (1625475) on Wednesday November 18, 2015
Hardcoded favs users provide = REVERSE DNS verified & my ware filters 5,500++ false positives - security site hosts data = false positives filtered.
---
"Apk doesn't think DNS servers are worth running & believes Microsoft Active Directory can run w/out DNS." - by Coren22 (1625475) on Tuesday October 27, 2015
Show us where I say it? Not illogic logic but where I say it. I say AD needs internal DNS far back as 2007
http://forums.tweaktown.com/wi...
See "To warn users who have ActiveDirectory/AD LAN-WAN setups to NOT use external DNS servers" there.
APK
P.S.=>
"modding you down for trolling in your signature" - by Dog-Cow (21281) on Wednesday November 25, 2015
Dog-Cow's (old acc't. no new sockpuppet from you) thoughts of your signatures about me
... apk
Coren22 IMPERSONATES RESPECTED MEMBERS OF THE SECURITY COMMUNITY http://slashdot.org/comments.p...
---
"privilege escalation's a bad thing" - by Coren22 on Tuesday September 22, 2015
How else programmatically update it?
"requires elevation to write hosts" - by Coren22 (1625475) on Wednesday September 23, 2015
Hypocrite later admits it - hosts do vs. WFP/SFP not my ware. Users set it not programmatic impersonation. Security wares need it.
---
"secretary at MalwareBytes took a look at his source code & said it looked all good" - by Coren22 (1625475) on Wednesday November 18, 2015
Mr. Steven Burn of Malwarebytes
"yes I've seen the code & yes it is safe." FROM http://forum.hosts-file.net/vi...
---
"we should avoid your crap it looks like malware." - by Coren22 (1625475) on Monday November 02, 2015 @03:52PM (#50850445)
60++ reputable sources say different:
64-bit model https://www.virustotal.com/en/...
+
32-bit model https://www.virustotal.com/en/...
&
Installer-> http://f.virscan.org/APKHostsF...
MalwareBytes' hpHosts Admin (MalwareBytes employee) hosts & recommends it -> http://hosts-file.net/?s=Downl...
---
"MiTM... his software provides" - by Coren22 (1625475) on Wednesday November 18, 2015
Hardcoded favs users provide = REVERSE DNS verified & my ware filters 5,500++ false positives - security site hosts data = false positives filtered.
---
"Apk doesn't think DNS servers are worth running & believes Microsoft Active Directory can run w/out DNS." - by Coren22 (1625475) on Tuesday October 27, 2015
Show us where I say it? Not illogic logic but where I say it. I say AD needs internal DNS far back as 2007
http://forums.tweaktown.com/wi...
See "To warn users who have ActiveDirectory/AD LAN-WAN setups to NOT use external DNS servers" there.
APK
P.S.=>
"modding you down for trolling in your signature" - by Dog-Cow (21281) on Wednesday November 25, 2015
Dog-Cow's (old acc't. no new sockpuppet from you) thoughts of your signatures about me
... apk
Coren22 IMPERSONATES RESPECTED MEMBERS OF THE SECURITY COMMUNITY http://slashdot.org/comments.p...
---
"privilege escalation's a bad thing" - by Coren22 on Tuesday September 22, 2015
How else programmatically update it?
"requires elevation to write hosts" - by Coren22 (1625475) on Wednesday September 23, 2015
Hypocrite later admits it - hosts do vs. WFP/SFP not my ware. Users set it not programmatic impersonation. Security wares need it.
---
"secretary at MalwareBytes took a look at his source code & said it looked all good" - by Coren22 (1625475) on Wednesday November 18, 2015
Mr. Steven Burn of Malwarebytes
"yes I've seen the code & yes it is safe." FROM http://forum.hosts-file.net/vi...
---
"we should avoid your crap it looks like malware." - by Coren22 (1625475) on Monday November 02, 2015 @03:52PM (#50850445)
60++ reputable sources say different:
64-bit model https://www.virustotal.com/en/...
+
32-bit model https://www.virustotal.com/en/...
&
Installer-> http://f.virscan.org/APKHostsF...
MalwareBytes' hpHosts Admin (MalwareBytes employee) hosts & recommends it -> http://hosts-file.net/?s=Downl...
---
"MiTM... his software provides" - by Coren22 (1625475) on Wednesday November 18, 2015
Hardcoded favs users provide = REVERSE DNS verified & my ware filters 5,500++ false positives - security site hosts data = false positives filtered.
---
"Apk doesn't think DNS servers are worth running & believes Microsoft Active Directory can run w/out DNS." - by Coren22 (1625475) on Tuesday October 27, 2015
Show us where I say it? Not illogic logic but where I say it. I say AD needs internal DNS far back as 2007
http://forums.tweaktown.com/wi...
See "To warn users who have ActiveDirectory/AD LAN-WAN setups to NOT use external DNS servers" there.
APK
P.S.=>
"modding you down for trolling in your signature" - by Dog-Cow (21281) on Wednesday November 25, 2015
Dog-Cow's (old acc't. no new sockpuppet from you) thoughts of your signatures about me
... apk
From: services@it-mate.co.uk /. troll Coren22 now GLOATING)... apk ;o)
> To: apk4776239@hotmail.com
> Subject: RE: I have a new build ready also (adds ALL the filters both Henry & yourself gave me + more on the
> Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 16:13:50 +0000
>
> Alex,
> I've never even registered for SlashDot, much less posted on it
Guess what else stupid?
Take a look -> "I've been asked to further clarify so for the record yes I've seen the code & yes it is safe." FROM http://forum.hosts-file.net/vi...
Impersonating him was the BIG mistake you made Coren22... huge!
Thank you for being SO stupid...
APK
P.S.=> How fucking LOW can you go, for Pete's sake, Coren22? Impersonating a RESPECTED MEMBER OF THE SECURITY COMMUNITY NOW TOO ontop of your libelous lying immature childish signatures about me?? You're low & no man... apk
Coren22 IMPERSONATES RESPECTED MEMBERS OF THE SECURITY COMMUNITY http://slashdot.org/comments.p...
---
"privilege escalation's a bad thing" - by Coren22 on Tuesday September 22, 2015
How else programmatically update it?
"requires elevation to write hosts" - by Coren22 (1625475) on Wednesday September 23, 2015
Hypocrite later admits it - hosts do vs. WFP/SFP not my ware. Users set it not programmatic impersonation. Security wares need it.
---
"secretary at MalwareBytes took a look at his source code & said it looked all good" - by Coren22 (1625475) on Wednesday November 18, 2015
Mr. Steven Burn of Malwarebytes
"yes I've seen the code & yes it is safe." FROM http://forum.hosts-file.net/vi...
---
"we should avoid your crap it looks like malware." - by Coren22 (1625475) on Monday November 02, 2015 @03:52PM (#50850445)
60++ reputable sources say different:
64-bit model https://www.virustotal.com/en/...
+
32-bit model https://www.virustotal.com/en/...
&
Installer-> http://f.virscan.org/APKHostsF...
MalwareBytes' hpHosts Admin (MalwareBytes employee) hosts & recommends it -> http://hosts-file.net/?s=Downl...
---
"MiTM... his software provides" - by Coren22 (1625475) on Wednesday November 18, 2015
Hardcoded favs users provide = REVERSE DNS verified & my ware filters 5,500++ false positives - security site hosts data = false positives filtered.
---
"Apk doesn't think DNS servers are worth running & believes Microsoft Active Directory can run w/out DNS." - by Coren22 (1625475) on Tuesday October 27, 2015
Show us where I say it? Not illogic logic but where I say it. I say AD needs internal DNS far back as 2007
http://forums.tweaktown.com/wi...
See "To warn users who have ActiveDirectory/AD LAN-WAN setups to NOT use external DNS servers" there.
APK
P.S.=>
"modding you down for trolling in your signature" - by Dog-Cow (21281) on Wednesday November 25, 2015
Dog-Cow's (old acc't. no new sockpuppet from you) thoughts of your signatures about me
... apk
you need to stop confusing systemd (the binary) and systemd (the project) - it certainly was intentional to call them both the same name and has caused tons of confusion...
FTFY.
I'd love to give the benefit of the doubt, but no one who's been involved in any sort of technological, engineering, or business project in a larger ecosystem could possibly fail to recognize the "embrace and extend", vendor lock-in pattern that happened there.
The systemd of today would have been rejected had it been (fully) proposed as a unified whole in Fedora 14. Leaving the true agenda unstated, or implying that there'd be no pressure to adopt the rest of the systemd "platform" was exactly what you'd do if you wanted to get your foot in the door. To assume that wasn't intentional is to assume that Poettering is an idiot and doesn't understand how the Linux community works. After his previous software contributions, I fail to see how that could be the case.
Hire a Linux system administrator, systems engineer,
... will we have Linux server distros without systemd in 2016?