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Los Angeles Flirts With Pre-Crime (washingtonpost.com)
An anonymous reader writes: The city of Los Angeles is considering a new plan to fight prostitution: sending letters to men who solicit prostitutes in the hopes that the letters are seen by family members. Why not just arrest them while they're doing it? Because these letters aren't being sent to the houses of men who were convicted, or even arrested. Instead, automated license plate readers would scan the cars driving down streets known to have a prostitution problem, and the letters would be sent to the address associated with those vehicles. An article about the plan says, "There isn't 'potential' for abuse here, this is a legislated abuse of technology that is already controversial when it's used by police for the purpose of seeking stolen vehicles, tracking down fugitives and solving specific crimes."
They're used to being sued, and losing. I guess they're under budget this year, and need to spend a few more million before New Years day on legal fees.
It reminds me of when I visited a friend in hospital, then as I walked back to where I had parked past an abandoned strip club a woman driving past yelled angrily at me "I hope you had a good time". False positives like that are bound to happen.
Big Brother is watching and he's a real dick...
Seriously, if a girl wants to sell her body, why shouldn't she?
Instead, automated license plate readers would scan the cars driving down streets known to have a prostitution problem, and the letters would be sent to the address associated with those vehicles.
Automated iris recognition scanning software should then be used to identify all milk drinkers as children, as a very high percentage of pedophiles drank milk as children.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
Ernest Hemingway
Find scanner id politicians license plates put fake plates on car drive by scanner. Law repealed. Problem solved.
Cities want your money. The courts make the city bonus money when when have to pay to use them. Divorce, child custody, etc. means lots of easy cash for the city. And then there's a new benefit after that, the city gets to collect property taxes twice, assuming both exes live in the same city.
I mean, seriously, isn't that the point here? To wreck up homes? Can you think of any other benefit for the city from breaking up families? Because you know what they say, follow the money!
Are the police insane? So if someone drives down the wrong street because they don't know that you're not supposed to drive down that street, the police are going to ruin their marriage? For that matter, if someone happens to drive to a bar in that neighborhood, the police are going to harass them?
*Headdesk*
Also, cue the lawsuit in 3... 2... 1...
Hey Dave, can I borrow your car? I just need to run down the street and get some milk..
... it should be considered prima facie evidence that the law in question is stupid and anyone who supports it is also stupid and it should be repealed.
Why not just decriminalise prostitution ?
See solved the problem , it was easy. That way the police can go back to worrying about crimes that actually have a victim.
With Legalised prostitution the prostitutes can come forward about abuse, blackmail, and other means of forcing them into what is currently a criminal activity. Removing the crime makes it easy to report REAL issues.
Countries like Amsterdam, New Zealand, Australia have done so and there was no social collapse, no children being scarred for life. Its reduced STIs, reduced police time wasted, reduced the courts time being wasted and has significantly increase the welfare and security of those that work in the industry because they can report crimes without fear of being prosecuted themselves.
As for the "morals campaigners" , decriminalising homosexuality has NOT lead to the collapse of civilisation and all the other mindless exaggerations that went with it, this won't either. Alcohol and cigarettes cause far more "harm".
It happens
It happens in YOUR neighbourhood
You can't/won't stop it
It causes no harm (and legalisation reduces harm)
It saves wasted tax money on policing
It will earn tax revenue (its legal, they can declare the income)
And once legal it can be regulated, e.g. no brothels within 400m of a school/church.
Bankers, Hedge and Mortgage Fund managers reminding them to not tank the economy again so they can make an extra nickel.
Police reminding them to not shoot unarmed civilians.
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
This is a little beyond "flirting" with pre-crime. This is more like taking pre-crime to Bed, Bath and Beyond to pick out curtains for the apartment you and pre-crime are about to move into.
Unless they're a fiction writer, they should probably be kept far far far away from anything important.
If they're a fiction writer, I'll at least give them credit for coming up with a decent enough portion of a plot.
Now if they can spin it out to a whole work, possibly a series.
someone decides to game google maps or the like? Use a bunch of fake traffic to get people's navs to route toward this strip... Results would be great for the printing company. Something like this could also be used to clear a getaway route or cause congestion near the police station, etc... Not sure how hard this would be to do, but seems like it would be doable for a group of organized jackasses. And that is what the internet does best, let jackasses organize their jackassery.
Just steal a car before you start scoping out the whores. It works in GTA.
Left MS Windows for Linux Mint and never looked back!
Vote for Bernie in 2016!
Perhaps someone needs to take pics of cops and post them publicly and to their managers as well.
5... 4... 3... 2... 1...
Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
No exceptions.
I would take each letter and send it on to each of the people behind this idea. That way they get to experience the joy of explaining why the letter is being sent to them and maybe realize just why such a letter might be a bad idea.
What's that? Prostitutes are on my way home from work? Thanks for letting me know!
I used to take the Karate PE classes in college, nice workout and something practical. During the summer breaks our instructor would let his college students take classes at his public dojo in town at no charge. The dojo was across the street from the bus station, an adult theatre a couple of doors south, a massage parlor a couple of doors north, an area known for some to offer their wares on the street at night.
Now to be fair such letters would have generated laughs for most parents and significant others. Most were aware of the neighborhood, had been to the dojo for one reason or another. But a few might have had to explain where their dojo was. A minor inconvenience to laugh about later. But for a different type of legal business the police may literally be scaring away legitimate legal business, making the neighborhood even worse. Yeah, probably numerous grounds for lawsuits here.
I think the reasoning goes something like, "all life is sacred until a person does something wrong to ruin their own life's sacredness."
As often is the case, you just have to follow the money trail. Someone paid off someone else to push their expensive license plate scanners and services. The police may not even have wanted to do this, but someone up the chain of command got a free vacation home in the Bahamas for implementing the program. It'll all get swept under the rug soon, after enough uproar.
The only thing worse than a Democrat is a Republican.
Stop criminalizing sex. Just like pot, it's only sketchy 'cause it's illegal. Sure, there's still potential for abuse and harm... but in our present system, the laws mandate harm done to prostitutes and johns who are, by and large, just consenting adults. Unlike pot, shagging for pay doesn't harm one's ability to drive for the next few hours.
Because among the entire English speaking population there is nowhere that prefers to use the word infection as opposed to disease?
I've been trying come up with a concrete example of how license plate readers could be abused and here we are.
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Most prostitutes aren't doing it because they want to, they're doing it because their either forced or it's the only way to make ends meet. Maybe if we had a robust social safety net + basic income so that we could honestly say that no one was coerced into it you'd have a point, but good luck with that.
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I don't see how they could pull this off without some serious legal liability. Just announcing that they'll do this (without actually doing it) may actually have an affect (at very low cost).
I'd sue the police back to the stone age. Not only to I HAVE to drive down that street to go to work, but by doing this they are driving my customers away. This is just plain dumb.
Morons. They'll ruin peoples lives, likely based on some moron that saw Minority Report and thought it was a Good Idea. Someone doesn't just need to be fired outright for this, someone needs to be dragged out into the street and flogged publicly over it. You can't convict someone for a crime you think they MIGHT commit, and what they're doing here has essentially the same effect with regard to the general public.
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
I think the reasoning is, "I am an asshole so I need to act like one."
"Believe me!" -- Donald Trump
Many of the women are actually forced into sex slavery. Someone conned them into immigrating illegally and now holds them captive, forcing them to have sex for money. There are also variations on this where the pimp has them addicted to some drug they supply. So the sex often is not actually consensual.
1. Copy legislator's license plates.
2. Place phony plates on cars near streets known to have a prostitution problem.
3. Hilarity ensues as Los Angeles legislators get prostitution warning letters.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BO8EpfyCG2Y
Hell, I'd show my SO what the PD is doing, and we'd get in the car together and go trolling for letters. Then it can "ruin our marriage," or whatever, and we can see if we can get a nice chunk of money.
It's cool I've taken it upon myself to send Ashley Madison renewal letters to the people behind this. I figured why not cause family problems without any evidence of wrong doing.
Sovereign immunity. You can't sue them for official acts unless they let you.
You can sue the police for violating the Constitution, as a matter of federal law.
So you drive down the street and your home gets a letter saying you were driving down a street with prostitutes. So... why don't they just close the street?
... "We see that you were recently driving in a neighborhood that is predominantly African American. We incarcerate more blacks per year than any other race, and so we're concerned that your vehicle was seen in such a neighborhood. Please be aware that we are watching you and any criminal actions you might undertake in the black neighborhood may result in your prosecution. Sincerely, Your Friends, The Cops."
Since they are sending them in a non-criminal matter (the story makes it sound like they are people in an area, but not charged), would the letters be releasable in a freedom of information act type request?
Just a thought.
...be regulated and taxed, not illegal. The idea that people should be forbidden to profit from their assets would be totally repugnant to Adam Smith.
Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
The government is still essentially an arm of the church ramming morality down your throat... Enforced by dudes with guns.
When you RTFA it says the proposal has been referred to the City Attorney.
So the City Attorney will write back that this is a Stupid Idea. Said idea is circular filed and life goes on.
So now they are working on the easy stuff. So glad robberies and murders are over with...
Oh wait....
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Have gnu, will travel.
Not all prostitute are female, there are so called gigolo too.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
To designate your mailing address for a registered vehicle as a post office box, use DMV Form 14.
And please be sure, when you enter the residence street address on that form, that it is truly your true street address. (Anything else would be improper and/or unlawful.)
https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/forms/dmv/dmv14
Like the ones where they make the iPhone.
I see. It sounds like you have driven down one of these streets. You are probably reacting out of fear because you know you are guilty, and soon your wife will too.
I feel quite confident in making this judgment of you given solely the evidence provided in your post, as will anyone who finds out you have received such a letter from the police.
Actually, no. I know the anti-human trafficking community quite well and have an understanding of the harm these places do to millions of women around the world every year, many of them underage. In the United States, tens of thousands of people are trafficked every year. Lots of kids. Lots of girls who run away and find a pimp to exploit them and make them feel loved. Lots of stupid guys who have no fucking idea are out on the street paying to rape those kids. The people who teach "John School" find they get a mix--the johns who just don't care what they're doing, and the ones who had no clue.
But that doesn't make it right to send letters that risk breaking up marriages just because someone drives down the wrong block. At the very least, such a letter would need to be incredibly carefully worded, with a tact not many people can command. And even then, it may cause great harm to perfectly innocent people. Not to mention the expanded database of blackmail material that starts turning up in political opposition research.
......so why exchanging money makes it illegal ?
I think the reasoning goes something like, "all life is sacred until a person does something wrong to ruin their own life's sacredness."
Same A.C. here
I missed that day in Sunday school. All I recall were turning the other cheek and that it is for God to judge not us.
I don't recall fixing a bayonet (knife) onto the end of your rifle, jamming it into someone else's guts, and spilling them onto the ground. Something that last I heard every Marine is taught how to do. Seems like a very un-Christian thing to do, perhaps necessary at times, but still un-Christian.
What went wrong?
Mine is: where is the thrill on killing someone who isn't even aware? Now, looking into someone's pleading eyes as they're moments away from having their lives taken from them... I think I just jizzed in my pants.
Photoshop the letters and then send them to everyone involved in this stupid campaign.
Calling everyone a criminal is dumb social engineering and guaranteed to produce mostly false positives because, at the very least, women drive cars too.
Then there's the possibility the prostitutes and johns attempt to circumvent this: From attacking the reader, to a rotating roster of streets.
OH OH Where can I get that list!!
Is this the medieval age come back or something?
I can understand drug misuse problems, human exploitation problem but what kind of problem is consensual sex??? wtf?
So I'm a tourist that get's lost, or my GPS decides to bring me down one of these streets. Next thing I'm getting a letter?!
Like, what?!
You missed the day definitely as serving in the military is stated clearly as an honorable job in both the old and new testaments. The difference is that the soldier is the arm of the state, and the sword is the tool of the state as related to the bible. You do not have to believe the bible, but you do need to at least know what it says if you are going to try to define what is and is not Christian.
So, I am sorry you think Christians are to be pacifists, they are to be in purely personal matters, but their holy book also makes an issue about the difference between acting to stop harm against yourself (your mentioned "turn the other cheek" as well as acceding to soldier/ civil protector demands such as carrying a soldiers burden further than required), protecting those around you from immediate bodily harm, and acting as the sword of the state.
So Christians are to show dependence on their God be accepting personal abuse, defending others and doing the jobs the government requires of them.
I parked the car outside.
Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion. -- Spazmania (174582)
Typical for L.A. In New York, people use the underground and taxis to drive to their extra-marital blowjobs.
Did you miss the part where most wars are fought over protecting Christian values?
Where the fuck is that earthquake that drops LA into the ocean?
"Assholes always advertise" -Walter Jon Williams
This posting is provided 'AS IS' without warranty of any kind, implied or otherwise.
This sounds like an EXCELLENT idea.
Until the first powerful Assemblyman or City Councilman gets nailed cruising for trannies.
I want to drive down this street just to get one of those letters! Public and widespread mockery is an effective countermeasure.
This posting is provided 'AS IS' without warranty of any kind, implied or otherwise.
I think the reasoning goes something like, "all life is sacred until a person does something wrong to ruin their own life's sacredness."
Or, to put it more succinctly: Until a person starts acting like a person.
I think the reasoning is, "I am an asshole so I need to act like one."
Actually, their reasoning is that a women's right to an abortion has been painted by pro-abortion advocates as a right to kill a fetus for no reason whatsoever or a "morning after" procedure and not something that a woman might actually need for a medical condition. As a Catholic, I don't sympathize for the former but one can't be human if you aren't feeling for the latter. I would never want to be in that position.
Pro-abortion advocates simply refuse to admit that abortion, as it stands now, it government sanctioned murder. Sure, a fetus can't live outside its mothers womb, but a 3 year old can't live without it's parents either and we don't allow people to kill them. The real problem with abortion is that the language used is so sanitized it becomes easier and easier to discount the value of life when it becomes an inconvenience whether a fetus, a baby, the elderly or the incarcerated.
and maybe stop having ridiculous laws against the private exchanges between consenting adults.
How is it any of their business? A worthless program of justifying jobs and budget to fight, nothing of consequence. Or what could be nothing of consequence, if not for their own bungling which turned it into a cesspool of criminal elements, from abusive pimps to human traffickers.
This is hardly a fix for the mess they made.
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
There was a neighborhood right off the highway that had a huge problem with people driving in and buying drugs that was near a prestigious university. The problem was so bad that the neighborhood street had cars lined up to buy drugs. The police department got volunteers to write down the license plates of these cars and sent them letters informing them that they were seen driving through a known drug dealing neighborhood and that they should be careful. They then got some angry calls from parents of students from said prestigious university saying that it wasn't possible that their car was driving through that neighborhood. The neighborhood cleaned up pretty quickly.
But the fetus can't be declared a ward of the state and provided to a foster home for care either.
Here's a little hint on how to seriously curtail abortion rates- teach adolescents how to use birth control and that the use of birth control is important. This isn't going to encourage teenagers to have sex, they already want to have sex and they already are having sex in many cases regardless of their parents' wishes. Teaching them to mitigate the consequences of sex is a lot more effective than trying to stop them.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
That one was pretty moo.
+5 cow pastures, would moo again.
APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
You mean like Hollywood Blvd? Everyone on that street is a potential john, really?
Let's say Bob runs a small business. It's not in the fanciest part of town, but it's a safe enough mixed-use neighborhood. Some whore gets busted on the corner of the block. Now Bob and all his customers are defamed by the city as being criminals. How does Bob's business fair?
But the fetus can't be declared a ward of the state and provided to a foster home for care either. Here's a little hint on how to seriously curtail abortion rates- teach adolescents how to use birth control and that the use of birth control is important. This isn't going to encourage teenagers to have sex, they already want to have sex and they already are having sex in many cases regardless of their parents' wishes. Teaching them to mitigate the consequences of sex is a lot more effective than trying to stop them.
And yet the AC Catholic you replied to, if they are a good Catholic, likely opposed birth control as well. If not, I would question why they choose to follow some of the Church's values but not others.
Abortion foes are usually just trying to control people's lives. The AC Catholic above is doing the same, as you can see from their objection to the "morning after" pill. That pill has nothing to do with abortion. But they disagree with its use because they think it allows women to just have sex without consequence. Like I said, controlling people's lives.
"What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
Los Angeles is not just flirting with pre-crime; it's driving down streets known to have a pre-crime problem.
This seems to border on the assumption that "ladies of the night" aren't people, and don't have friends etc. I had a buddy who regularly stopped to chat with the corner ladies, but to my knowledge did not engage their services. I've also hung out with a few gals who I didn't even know were in that particular occupation until somebody told me later.
The police are increasingly being expected to prevent crime, and the erosion of civil liberties will always follow. Until we let the police get back to enforcing the law instead of trying to prevent crime, this sort of crap as well as a host of other civil rights violations will continue.
Not just un-crime, un-American.
In this country people are supposedly innocent until proven guilty, and we don't punish the innocent along with the guilty.
The day we start prosecuting people for what they might do, it's game over.
Actual human trafficking is barely a blip on the radar. Almost all of the "it's a serious problem" statistics are complete fictions, particularly in most of the developed countries like the United States. As is true for quite a few of the "well knowns" related in any way to prostitution. The "association" is outright misleading.
Here are some of the details. Quite a bit about human trafficking there, but also additional information, with references, related to the numerous false narratives promulgated WRT prostitution.
"Human trafficking" isn't so much the "reason that really matters" as it is the "nonsense that most powerfully misinforms and misleads the public."
--fyngyrz*
* Posting anon due to mod points - c'mon slashdot, there's no good reason for that, and never has been.
Here's your homework - you can now learn how the myth you are repeating became the accepted (and wholly incorrect) public narrative. As well as many other relevant details.
--fyngyrz*
* Posting anon due to mod points - c'mon slashdot, there's no good reason for that, and never has been.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
but even if this is enacted, wont is just move the prostitution somewhere else?
or is that the point, put up automated license plate readers up all over the city chasing the problem and then BAM, domestic surveillance?
i know its a little 1984, but given the past 2 years.... i don't see it outside the realm of possibility/
WWJB ?
You seem to be profoundly confused, my friend.
A.) I speak to my doctor in a private space.
B.) Support group is a safe space.
C.) A public space is where pro-life activists get to scream at you and also where you're free to give them the bird.
I hope that helps. Next time you need to discuss a sensitive matter of personal health with your doctor, go for A instead of C.
Jesus's apostles, almost to a man, carried swords. When the priests and temple guards came for Jesus, one of the disciples sliced off an enemy's ear.
In that section, Jesus isn't down with the violence, but he doesn't really condemn it either.
He effected a bored affect.
You think people work at McDonald's because they have better options? You think plumbers dig out your clogged toilet because they have better options? You think people dig ditches because they have better options? For that matter, you think I spend my time running a hugely successful business because I have "better options"?
The vast majority of undertakings for pay are done specifically because they are the best options available to the individual. That's the point of it for most people.
The entire meme that "it's a last resort" is nonsense as an attempt to demonize the undertaking. Prostitution is a job, the fundamental nature of which is service for money. Exactly the same as compensated massage, and compensated martial arts instruction, and compensated personal training, and compensated tutoring. The fact that it is an illegal job reflects the degree of idiocy of our laws and lawmakers, which serves to artificially make the job far, far worse than it would otherwise be. In other words, the job isn't the problem. Idiot lawmakers and the citizens that support them are the problem.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Oh no, it's crime all right. Crime committed by the police.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Perhaps it's time to mail some similarly informative letters about the police officers. They drive down these streets quite often. I mean, it's obvious, right? They must be there to break the law. There's no other possible answer, and we simply must inform their families. It's our moral obligation, don't you see? And even the ones we don't see doing it, well, you know they are almost certain to drive on those streets anyway. So no need to bother with the whole license plate thing. Just get a list of all the police officers and start printing out form letters for their families. And sleep well, knowing that you have performed a Public Service.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Make a copy of these letters and send it to the family of every local politician, then watch them fall all over themselves trying to ban the practice!
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
what about folks running a ministry to benefit girls trapped in that lifestyle (or just making sure that they get FED/HOUSED)?
this of course makes it a crime to drive down certain streets and increases the BlackMail potential.
You're doing it wrong. If you film it, then you're producing XXX films using paid actors, so that makes it legal!
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
Pro-abortion advocates simply refuse to admit that abortion, as it stands now, it government sanctioned murder.
I'm pro-abortion and I'm pro-life. I fully support the right of any woman to choose whether to dispose of a parasite growing inside her, particularly if it's endangering her health.
I'm very much against people using their archaic primitive superstitions such as catholicism to deny any actual debate on such issues.
This mirrors my reaction to people that protest strip clubs located in their neighborhood. My response is, instead of holding up signs, why not have volunteers photograph the license plates of every customer's vehicle, and publish the information somewhere? That seems like the most effective method to put these places out of business, although it only discourages the people that actually care whether or not people know they were there.
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
Seriously. Pre-crime prevention does not work. Nor is it an effective or efficient use of tax-payer dollars. This is simply incompetence in action.
I'm pretty sure damned near every human on this planet WORKS because they really need the money. I'm not sure what your point was. If a pimp is making the call for his ho, then that isn't consent. Like you said, that should be easy. What isn't easy evidently is where the OP already said that:
"Let consenting adults engage in whatever services they deem fit, and then focus law enforcement resources on those who actually harm others."
a) it's not my blog, and you really need to read some of those links. The entire human trafficking narrative is an overblown pile of tripe. .4 discovery rate... "discovery rate"? What kind of magic mumbo jumbo is that? Think about what you said there.
b) "estimating" cases that there is no evidence for is utter nonsense (as is what the hysterics call "human trafficking")
c) 1366 "victims" in 2014. Really? REALLY? This is "over 10000"? (and note that most "victims" are only victims of the DOJ)
d) at a
Fact: There are very few cases of actual human trafficking, that is, people who are acting in ways not of their own free choice
Fact: Prostitution is not "human trafficking", it is a service industry that is under attack from (powerful) moralizing morons
Fact: If "the truth is hard to ascertain", then the truth is not known
Fact: When we go from the previous fact to "OMG huge problem" we are engaging in purest hysteria
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
I'm atheist, but I agree with this quote from Bill Clinton
Abortion should not only be safe and legal, it should be rare.
-BILL CLINTON, speech at DNC, Aug. 29, 1996
Regardless of the legality, abortions will be performed. So it's better to happen inside a clinic with a sterile environment than a back alley with a coat-hanger.
That said, Abortion should relatively be a "last resort". Not used at a whim instead of birth control, but it really is hard to dictate under what exact conditions it can be used.
I've never head of a story where a mother's decision to perform an abortion didn't weigh heavily on her.
I didn't conflate prostitution with trafficking, merely pointed out that there are a non-zero number of cases with factual evidence.
Maybe you didn't read the US State Department report I linked. It is evidence based, includes global assessments and doesn't make up spurious numbers because it doesn't need to.
I don't think 0.4% sounds credible but your position that there are fewer cases than have been actually recorded is even less tenable.
Clearly you don't give a shit about modern slavery. I do.
Totally not offtopic, just a riff on an offtopic meme,
I am not your blowing wind, I am the lightning.
Of course, Catholics don't believe in contraception either, so it's hard to have a rational conversation about it with them.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Free people should flood the system with false positives by driving through those neighborhoods regularly.
"There is no god but allah" - well, they got it half right.
They've been doing this in Camden for years if you drive through an area known for its open air drug market