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More People In Europe Are Dying Than Are Being Born (phys.org)

jones_supa writes: More people in Europe are dying than are being born, according to a new report co-authored by a Texas A&M University demographer. In contrast, births exceed deaths, by significant margins, in Texas and elsewhere in the United States, with few exceptions. The researchers find that in Europe, deaths exceeded births in most of the counties of Germany, Hungary, Croatia, Romania, Bulgaria and the Czech Republic, as well as in Sweden and the Baltic States. Further south, natural decrease is found occurring in the majority of the counties of Greece, Portugal and Italy. More births than deaths (natural increase) is widespread in Ireland, Cyprus, Iceland, Lichtenstein and Luxembourg. "Natural decrease is much more common in Europe than in the U.S because its population is older, fertility rates are lower and there are fewer women of child-bearing age," the researchers explain. "Natural decrease is a major policy concern because it drains the demographic resilience from a region diminishing its economic viability and competitiveness."

315 of 547 comments (clear)

  1. invite more people in? by known_coward_69 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    that's what the US is doing

    1. Re:invite more people in? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      and Germany.

    2. Re:invite more people in? by cayenne8 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I think it means, if this trend keeps up, that EU culture, the Germans, the French, etc....will possibly start to disappear, being replaced with the Muslims that are pouring in, staying isolated and not melting into the EU cultures, and they are reproducing at a greater rate.

      I guess this is how the long term "revenge" for the crusades will happen. If the Muslim populations get high enough, they can vote in the changes to the laws and the old world cultures will fade.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    3. Re:invite more people in? by dyslexicbunny · · Score: 1

      Well technically the EU kinda is but there are currently problems with some of it.

      Anyway, the US is so easy because English is the standard here and I would imagine that most people that speak more than one language includes English. I will say that EU immigration is somewhat more difficult only because I don't speak the native language in most countries and that will stop me from getting in most places except for the UK. A number of places I glanced at required it so I couldn't apply for those jobs. But I don't know how one would go about fixing it.

    4. Re:invite more people in? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Why? We're reducing the number of jobs due to automation and outsourcing. Not to mention that the world is pretty overcrowded already. Fewer people isn't a bad thing.

    5. Re:invite more people in? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Do you actually live in Europe? Integration does not work. We have whole suburbs of "insert immigrant nationality" because they don't integrate. Even politicians have to admit that multiculturalism failed. The cultures are just too different and there are far too many at the same time.

    6. Re: invite more people in? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Irish and italians were humans, not barbaric worshippers of a pedophile death cult thats hell bent on spreading like a cancer and killing the host societies from within.

    7. Re:invite more people in? by Chalnoth · · Score: 1

      Yes, the answer is most definitely to increase immigration, and in particular to be less selective about immigration.

      But the US really isn't inviting people in. It's almost as bad on immigration policy as Europe is.

    8. Re:invite more people in? by LubosD · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Seriously, the difference between the US and Italian / Irish cultures is nothing compared to the difference between Europeans and Arabs / Africans.

    9. Re:invite more people in? by tnk1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't want to suggest that Muslims in Europe cannot or will not assimilate, but the Irish and even the Italians had more similarities to the population in the US at the time than the Muslims do with the Europeans now. And there was a great amount of both interest and motivation in assimilating back then because no one cared much whether cultures were being oppressed or not, so you assimilated or you failed to thrive.

      Today, there's both larger cultural differences, mixed with more tolerance of other cultures which has the unfortunate side-effect of making it easier to resist assimilation.

      While I can't really make a distinction of what culture is "better", I do know that mixing cultures which are resistant to intermixing and assimilation is a recipe for serious civil strife. That's a serious danger for the future of Europe if they can't find some way to cope with the influx peacefully.

    10. Re:invite more people in? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Are you being serious?

      The differences between the Italian, Irish, German and Scandinavian immigrants who came to the US in the late 1800s and early 1900s and the prevailing American culture at the time was quite minimal compared to what we're seeing today in Europe.

      Those immigrants to the US were mainly all Christians, even if they did have minor differences with their beliefs and how they practiced their faiths. Today we see those entering Europe from the Middle East, North Africa, and other hellish regions coming in with a very, very different set of religious beliefs compared to the culture they're entering.

      Even linguistically there were relatively minor differences. Most Irish spoke English. The Germanic and Scandinavian languages actually aren't that much different from English, either. Even Italian isn't that far from English. All of these languages use essentially the same alphabet. Many of these European immigrants to the US were able to pick up English very rapidly, and become part of American society. Again, that's very different from what's happening in Europe, where the new arrivals typically don't have any experience with the native language of the countries they're entering, and show no willingness to learn German, or French, or Dutch, or Italian.

      Yes, cultures will blend when they're very similar to begin with, and the people entering the new culture are willing to adapt.

      That's exactly what we aren't seeing with these new arrivals to Europe! They're very culturally different, they're very religiously different, they're very linguistically different, and many of them don't give a fuck about integrating into the prevailing societies that they're entering into. So we see them ghettoizing themselves and culturally not blending in at all. Worst of all, we're seeing these traits being passed down generation after generation.

      That's why there's so little hope for the future: these migrants to Europe don't want to live in Europe. They just want to escape the hellholes they're originally from. They don't want to become part of the culture that so warmly and generously welcomed them.

    11. Re:invite more people in? by dlt074 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      you don't know which culture is "better"? you may be a victim of political correctness. i'm not so let me help you a bit.

      the one that doesn't believe in killing and raping the infidels is better.
      the one that believes woman are equal to men is better.
      the one that believes in not killing homo sexuals is better.

      the list goes on, but it always comes back to western culture is better!

    12. Re:invite more people in? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      I hear the Muslim men are all up for reproducing with the European women too, whether the women want to or not.

    13. Re:invite more people in? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      I have, although that was more than a decade ago. The whole point of areas like that is NOT to blend but to stay amongst their culture. However I did not feel like I just entered some crime-ridden ghetto as is often the case in Europe.

    14. Re:invite more people in? by NotDrWho · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Except most Chinatowns in the U.S. are where non-Chinese people go to eat exotic food, not a separate city-within-a-city where any non-Chinese who enter will be beaten (or worse).

      --
      SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
    15. Re:invite more people in? by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I guess this is how the long term "revenge" for the crusades will happen.

      Muslims seeking revenge against Europeans for the crusades is like Japanese seeking revenge against the U.S. for their defeat in WWII.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    16. Re:invite more people in? by saider · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Unless that culture results in lower birthrates, then the killing, raping, misogynistic homophobic culture is better - in an evolutionary sense.

      --


      Remember, You are unique...just like everyone else.
    17. Re:invite more people in? by TheCarp · · Score: 1

      who would make it is hardly relevant. We are already seeing the effects of this.

      Legal aids are my favorite example. Its used to be that Laywers would hire an auditorium full of aids just to help with a single high profile case. Any big case had many people working on it. Now? That entire room of people is replaced with a handful of people on computers.

      30 years ago you could graduate from college with any old degree and get a job. The majority of those jobs are just gone. Either made so unskilled that no degree is needed, or so centralized that very few people actually are needed to scale.

      I don't have to think the Luddites answer was correct, or really anything but stupid to recognize that the problem they identified was visionary and so far ahead of its time that it was ridiculous, when they proposed it.

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    18. Re:invite more people in? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      that just means the chinese are better at realizing they have a marketing opportunity.

    19. Re:invite more people in? by Sowelu · · Score: 3, Interesting

      In general, people who come to the USA are the most liberal members of their own cultures. I saw a study showing that US muslims had a stronger belief in gender equality than christians, they're extremely open to women working outside the home vs. traditional american culture of stay-at-home mothers. General opinion of burqa-wearing women I met at college was that they were a great tool to keep unwanted guys from leering at them and they saw it as a big help, not an unwanted obligation.

    20. Re:invite more people in? by imgod2u · · Score: 3, Informative

      Don't we need to give it at least a decade or two for that to actually be concluded? After all, Chinese/Japanese immigrants during the gold rush didn't exactly integrate either. Mexican immigrants during the 90's didn't either. Their children and grandchildren, however, did.

      Integration isn't something that happens instantaneously; it takes a generation or two.

      You do have a point about the issue of overwhelming influx. The Syrians would have to be divided up amongst a lot of countries -- probably all of Europe and North America would have to go in on it together. Countries with larger populations and better economies could obviously absorb more.

      But that's an ideal world. The real world has plenty of xenophobic idiots voting for Trump's wall around Mexico.....

    21. Re:invite more people in? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The crusades had nothing on the Muslim conquests.

    22. Re:invite more people in? by mikael · · Score: 2

      It's strange how homes that were built over 150 years ago and were affordable to the young people of the time are no longer affordable to young people of the same age now.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    23. Re:invite more people in? by jedidiah · · Score: 2

      The crusades were a direct response to a particular part of that conflict, namely the conquest of lands that European Xians might care about for religious religions.

      Imagine the rest of the Muslim world getting pissed off that America decided to invade Saudi Arabia and have the Marines occupy Mecca.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    24. Re:invite more people in? by bondsbw · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The more people you invite, particularly when it's a richer country inviting poorer people, the more funding is needed for social programs just to keep the status quo. The folks who pay into those programs don't care for them (paying more for no improvements), and recipients from those programs don't want to risk the programs being reduced to help compensate for the influx. Jobs rarely if ever increase by as much as 1:1 for every immigrant. The economy can't grow if the immigration program outpaces any gains.

      Frankly, the governments these people are fleeing from should be held to a higher standard. Poor people don't move just because they're poor, but because they're oppressed and/or have no opportunity. Oppression is a direct result of bad government. Lack of opportunity is typically a problem of poor economic or social decisions at the government level. (I say this not because I know the right answer, but just to point out that all this "blame" being placed on the country of asylum is really misdirected and should first be placed on the country the refugees are fleeing.)

      --
      All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
    25. Re:invite more people in? by irrational_design · · Score: 1

      Seriously, Xian? That like called a homosexual a faggot.

    26. Re:invite more people in? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      you may be a victim of political correctness. i'm not

      Yes, you are. Right-wing PC is every bit as much a form of PC as the left's version.

      So you're saying there's no objective difference between, say, a religion that preaches - and many of its members are openly rewarded for acting upon - the belief that non-member are to be subjugated or killed, and a religion that at least tries to say all men and women are equal and everyone deserves equal treatment?

      Oooooh-kay.

    27. Re:invite more people in? by Beck_Neard · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You think muslims around the world are all part of some grand conspiracy to 'take revenge' for the crusades? No, they're just people who see the much greater opportunities and wealth available in European countries compared to the shitholes they live in, and make the rational decision to move there for personal gain.

      As for the 'decline' of Europe, they may be decreasing in number, sure, but they are definitely increasing in wealth (positive economic growth) with the effect that wealth and power is becoming concentrated in the hands of fewer individuals. Raw population size is a poor measure of the well-being of a country, otherwise India and China would be the best places to live.

      --
      A fool and his hard drive are soon parted.
    28. Re: invite more people in? by guruevi · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But those were economic immigrants and the reason they didn't integrate was lack of education; the current migrants in Europe have an ideological reason for migration and by said ideology are raising their children not to integrate because their ideology states that the natives should integrate their customs and religion. Immigrant muslims in Europe have been around for at least 1 if not 2 generations (first gulf war and before that) and have by and far not integrated at all in European culture; they are migrants in the same fashion Europeans were "economics migrants" to the "New World" in the 1400-1600's.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    29. Re:invite more people in? by stanjo74 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This. There is a difference between immigration and diaspora. Immigrants are typically very open minded members of their society - they are looking for new opportunities because their own society at home is holding them back.
      What we have in Europe right now is a diaspora - people from a totally foreign culture forced to live with another. Of course, one can argue that the refugees are in Europe by their own will, but the economic and social hardships in their own countries is so bad, that I would consider this a diaspora.

      The political correctness of the hosts will allow the new foreign culture not to assimilate, and the children of these foreigners will end up outsiders in their own country. At least when there was conscription army in Europe, young males were forcefully mingled with other members of the society. Nowadays, young males are left isolated, exploited and desperate in their own ghettos, ripe for extremist brainwashing centered around their foreign culture and ethnicity.

    30. Re:invite more people in? by evilviper · · Score: 1

      It's strange how homes that were built over 150 years ago and were affordable to the young people of the time are no longer affordable to young people of the same age now.

      Contrast with the areas where people are abandoning their homes, and you can get one for $1,000... I'm sure they were far more less affordable 150 years ago. The two trends probably average out. Nothing strange about it at all.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    31. Re: invite more people in? by guruevi · · Score: 1

      There is also a strong filter there though. I've immigrated myself to the US and you're not getting here by jumping on a train/walking and you're definitely not getting in if you don't have the capacity to fully integrate in a short time. You need money, you get background checks, you need to have people on the US side that support you and the process takes 6 months or longer. Any doubt and they won't allow you; any criminal activity and they round you and your family up for deportation.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    32. Re:invite more people in? by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 3, Informative

      One should note that Islam won the Crusades. In the end, all the crusader kingdoms were permanently evicted from the Middle East and its surrounds. In the final act, even Constantinople finally fell (remember that the rescue of the Byzantine Empire was the original motivation for the Crusades--the whole thing was ignited by the Byzantine disaster at Manzikert, after all.)

    33. Re:invite more people in? by myowntrueself · · Score: 1

      you don't know which culture is "better"? you may be a victim of political correctness. i'm not so let me help you a bit.

      the one that doesn't believe in killing and raping the infidels is better.
      the one that believes woman are equal to men is better.
      the one that believes in not killing homo sexuals is better.

      the list goes on, but it always comes back to western culture is better!

      Yes thats nice and all.

      But in reality the culture thats better is the culture that keeps its integrity, the culture that keeps its values and traditions; its Darwinian evolution.

      The 'better' cultures are the cultures that survive, the 'worse' cultures are the cultures that integrate and get absorbed by other cultures.

      --
      In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
    34. Re:invite more people in? by myowntrueself · · Score: 1

      In general, people who come to the USA are the most liberal members of their own cultures. I saw a study showing that US muslims had a stronger belief in gender equality than christians, they're extremely open to women working outside the home vs. traditional american culture of stay-at-home mothers. General opinion of burqa-wearing women I met at college was that they were a great tool to keep unwanted guys from leering at them and they saw it as a big help, not an unwanted obligation.

      Because a womans hair is SO FUCKING sexy its better for them to cover it up than have guys drooling over their amazing sexy hair.

      --
      In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
    35. Re:invite more people in? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That's because the USA (and Canada) are blessed by a great filter called the Atlantic Ocean, which lets through people who

      a) Passed the immigration criteria for work/residence/background check
      b) Can afford a transatlantic ticket and can sustain themselves after becoming a resident

      It would be natural that the more westernized immigrants would be coming over.

      That does not appear to be the case in Europe. Closer proximity and lower risk of making the land and sea voyages does not filter out the "cream of the crop", like it does in the Americas.

    36. Re:invite more people in? by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Fewer people is a bad thing for capitalism, because it requires exponential growth, perpetually and unconditionally. Capitalism doesn't care about any limits set by a planet's carrying capacity, or relativity, or thermodynamics - it doesn't care where the growth comes from, it just needs it and will crash if it doesn't get it, simple.

      We've decided that we can't do better than this awesome system, that rewards celebrity and ownership far more than productivity, that won't give you an opportunity to work for a living if it already has enough work, that increasingly concentrates all of the resources it produces on a few low-productivity celebrities, that responds to technological advances with great losses in opportunity that last generations.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    37. Re:invite more people in? by umghhh · · Score: 1

      Actually that is not true. According to German Office for Immigration and Refugees (german: BAMF) there were 1.1m people that came to work and registered in Germany in 2014. In the same year ~450k left the country. These people are usually productive and working (even if their income is small) and are more or less integrated. I can imagine that similar happened in 2015 with a difference that so called refugees (or what BAMF recognizes as refuge seekers) added to the mix - there are no official figures for whole of 2015 yet but estimates pointing to at least 1.1m additional people that came here illegally due to borders being removed completely. These two groups are so different especially with regard to integration that you cannot talk about almost anything that they may have in common.
      The point here is that immigration is kind of working thanx to open borders in EU which support flowing in if need be and going back home if nothing to do. This however is all fucked up completely by mass of immigrants called refugees who on average indeed do not integrate well. So multikulti works sometimes and sometimes not. People claiming it does not work at all are as wrong as those claiming no problems and full integration as soon as all newcomers get a residence permit.

    38. Re:invite more people in? by XXongo · · Score: 1

      that's what the US is doing

      Not really.

      Although there are a lot of total immigrants, the US also has a large population, so it is way down on the list of icountries in terms of the number of immigrants divided by population

    39. Re:invite more people in? by umghhh · · Score: 1

      Current flow of so called refugees in EU consist of many people - Syrians are a minority there. BTW: according to world bank there were billions of people that earned less than 1k$ per year - I wonder how do you plan to integrate all of them. Take any mass immigration to a country where most of space is already occupied and you get bloody conflicts. This worked that way since we started living in cities. I would be surprised if it worked differently this time.

    40. Re:invite more people in? by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      The "revenge" for the Crusades was Salah-ah-Din. So people who use that pathetic excuse both have no idea of history and also need to be asked - exactly how many times do they think "revenge" must be extracted before enough is enough? Of course we're dealing with people more than happy to keep killing each other for thousands of years because of what one ancestor said to another ancestor about his camel.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    41. Re:invite more people in? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Islamic culture does not absorb other cultures. It extinguishes them. That might make it more fit in a Darwinian sense, but if we consider different cultures to be different members of the same species a reduction in cultural diversity is like a reduction in genetic diversity within a population. It makes the entire population vulnerable to changes in environment and extinction. There are undoubtedly challenges that Islamic culture does not respond well to, but to which other cultures are well suited. If Rome had been destroyed around 1400 there would have been no industrial revolution. All books would have been burned and the Latin alphabet would have gone the way of Sanskrit.

    42. Re:invite more people in? by umghhh · · Score: 1

      Better based on what criteria - brutality?

      The lower birth rates are a good thing - the world has limited capacity and resources, packing things and going to the west to settle in free land (that is the one belonging to redskins before they got removed) is not really an option today. OC something like decrease of population is a practical problem - shot does not flow well in villages and small cities in east of Germany because there is not enough shitters so water works people have to go around and flush the system. It is just one such example but generally World is better of if there are not so many of us. Or to put it another way - until we find out how to reach to other worlds it is better to keep the population level in check.
      me thinks.

    43. Re:invite more people in? by Cimexus · · Score: 1

      That's not particularly high for a large western country though. That percentage is 21% in Canada and 28% in Australia, for instance.

    44. Re:invite more people in? by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 4, Informative

      We have that here in the US. Heck, I live right near Little Saigon.

      Guess what? Moving someplace with a weird language and weird customs and weird food can be tough. My roommate's family came over from Vietnam in the 1990s. Their english language skills weren't great and Little Saigon offered them places to go and things to do which were comfortable. While they have assimilated to a degree, they still tend to go to Little Saigon for restaurants (though they'll shop elsewhere for other things).

      Their kids, on the other hand? For the most part, they're "assimilated." They speak english, enjoy "American" food, enjoy the culture, and barely speak the native language.

      So, yes, these "immigrant" neighborhoods will grow because there are more immigrants coming in who need that support. Those immigrants will meet people, fall in love, have kids, and those kids will have more experience with the native culture than that of their parents. Give it a generation or two.

    45. Re:invite more people in? by umghhh · · Score: 1

      From this side of the pond that is significantly less funny.

    46. Re:invite more people in? by umghhh · · Score: 1

      Actually according to German media most of these people are engineers, doctors and mothers with little children.

    47. Re:invite more people in? by Darinbob · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They used to be a separate city where non-Chinese would not enter. People used to complain that Chinese, Italians, whoever were not properly integrating. By which they meant abandoning their own culture and embracing the mayonaisse of American "culture". It's only over time that those other cultures became mixed in better, but the US embraced (badly) parts of their culture instead. We even bitched about the Irish and you can't get any whiter than that.

      The melting pot concept is stupid, it just doesn't work to expect immigrants to abandon the old and become clones. There was too much effort spent in the past on forced conformity in many places in US and elsewhere; forcing children to go to English speaking schools and punishing them when their native language was used so that it becomes forgotten over time (most native American languages are functionally dead, children who can't communicate with their grandparents, etc).

    48. Re:invite more people in? by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      The big problem are these second and third generations because they are the radical ones. They haven't experienced their parents' homes and form their identity around idolizing the culture their parents' fled from.

      That's for a minority though. The majority are better integrated. The problem you have is that the 'basement nerd' type is easy to radicalize.

      By the 3rd generation they're generally losing the family's original language - the grand-kids being unable to speak to their grandparents happens fairly frequently in the USA, and the odds are even higher with one more generation.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    49. Re:invite more people in? by lgw · · Score: 1

      fewer people is a bad thing for capitalism, because it requires exponential growth, perpetually and unconditionally.

      No, capitalism doesn't require that. Capitalism is just any system where ownership of the means of production can be acquired by buying them, as opposed by to military conquest, or by political favoritism. The stock market likes to see growth, but then a falling market just makes it cheaper to acquire ownership of the means of production.

      No, a growing population is not required for perpetual exponential growth. Technology provides perpetual exponential growth, per capita, while using fewer resources per widget. Debt-financed governments require growing populations.

      We've decided that we can't do better than this awesome system

      I know of no one who actually believes this. The common belief is "capitalism is the worst economic system, except for everything else that's ever been tried". That's certainly my belief. There must be something better, but temporarily providing a better standard of living through ever-ballooning debt (e.g., European Socialism except Norway) or by massive exports of natural resources (e.g., Norway) ain't it - those just aren't sustainable plans. Not that Americas plan of not providing a better standard of living while still ballooning the debt is better, mind you.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    50. Re:invite more people in? by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      So, yes, these "immigrant" neighborhoods will grow because there are more immigrants coming in who need that support. Those immigrants will meet people, fall in love, have kids, and those kids will have more experience with the native culture than that of their parents. Give it a generation or two.

      And then eventually the 'Chinatown' or Little Saigon is discovered and used by the rest of the population as a comfortable source of the 'exotic'. Which means that the kids, who are actually fully integrated, will play up the differences because now they're at least semi-wealthy business owners.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    51. Re:invite more people in? by Chalnoth · · Score: 2

      This is generally not a concern for most countries. Usually people move to a new country in the hope of finding work. Social programs just help get them into the workforce faster.

      Sure, I suppose a sudden, large-scale influx could be a problem. But this usually just doesn't happen. And it would pay for itself many times over if the country would simply borrow the money for getting the new immigrants settled.

    52. Re:invite more people in? by slew · · Score: 1

      In 2010, the USA, Asians passed Hispanics as the largest immigrant wave to the US with about 430,000 (36%) vs 370,000 (31%) Hispanic.

      Ironically, the Asians seem to be adapting to US culture more than the Hispanics (e.g, willingness to learn English and blending in).

      Just because the culture/language is more different than the native culture/language doesn't necessarily mean that integration is more difficult. One potential differentiation factors is that bulk of the Asian immigration has a higher level of education than the Hispanic immigration. But that doesn't explain the speed which the Vietnamese integration wave in the US achieved integration after the war (most of the immigrants had a similar education level than Hispanics and had similar language and cultural differences as Asians).

      What most demographers see is that the main obstacles limiting integration of new immigrants isn't language, or culture, or education, but simply the type of resources available to immigrants when they come to the country. The obstacle to integration that many Hispanics face when they immigrate to the US is they have little pressure to learn English (if you ever been in East LA or Miami, there's really no reason to learn English). I suspect the same thing is true with certain recent Muslim immigrants in Europe. Because of the existence of these "ghettos", they feel little pressure to integrate.

      Fortunately, for Hispanics coming to the US, these Hispanic "ghettos" aren't really ghetto at all in the US as many of the Hispanic enclaves in the US have been in existence since the 1800s (and actually used to be part of the Spanish empire back in the 1600s and/or Mexico) and are quite prosperous.

      Doesn't sound like that is the case in Europe with new Muslim immigrants. However, if you look at Spain, Muslim immigration to that country is quite simlilar to Hispanic immigration to the US. As Spain has a long history of Muslim association (like the US with Hispanics), and might be considered anti-islam (given the Spanish history like the Spanish Inquisition), yet recent integration of Muslims into Spain and Portugal show quite a bit of success compared to the rest of Europe even with the "language" barrier remaining intact (similar to Hispanics coming to the USA).

      So although they may have been warmly and generously welcomed, they are only as successful as integration the people they associate with most when they come and most of Europe didn't really treat those folks very well...

    53. Re:invite more people in? by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      The culture that raped and killed the indigenous natives.
      The culture that believed women were inferior to men and could not vote.
      The culture that believed in killing homosexuals also.
      The culture that believed slavery was ok and defended it with religion.
      And so forth, there's a lot of negatives in American culture also.

      The problem is that you're stereotyping the actions of a few to the beliefs of all. If your belief is true and all muslims are like that, then I will counter and say that all Americans are bigoted and violent and culturally unsuited to democracy.

    54. Re:invite more people in? by david_thornley · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Not necessarily. We've only had sub-replacement birth rates for a relatively short time, and AFAIK nobody's proposed significant action to make motherhood more attractive. The population shift will also be very slow, and there's plenty of time for cultural assimilation. Western civilization is very resilient.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    55. Re:invite more people in? by Yunzil · · Score: 1

      Gee I can't imagine why people coming to a culture where they're treated like garbage wouldn't want to integrate into that culture.

    56. Re:invite more people in? by elrous0 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The melting pot concept is stupid

      Yeah, except your own post demonstrates that it has worked just fine in the U.S.:

      They used to be a separate city where non-Chinese would not enter.

      Emphasis mine

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    57. Re:invite more people in? by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      In the US, ethnic neighborhoods sprang up whenever large numbers of immigrants - the old-fashioned, legal kind - came in from one country. They served as landing zones where new arrivals could be among their countrymen as they adjusted to life in a new society. Over time, all those ethnic neighborhoods faded out as their people spread out into the larger culture.

    58. Re:invite more people in? by aliquis · · Score: 2

      I guess this is how the long term "revenge" for the crusades will happen.

      The crusades was the revenge if anything.

      The crusades is just a short blip in history and in the world whereas Muslim persecution of non-Muslims and spreading to new territory happen more or less the whole time.

      Of course they shouldn't be imported to Europe and of course larger volumes and more segregation which let them keep their ways is a problem.

      If they are few enough and spread within a community of another majority culture the most likely outcome would rather be that it's their cultural history which would become replaced not the other way around.

      / Swede

    59. Re:invite more people in? by Guybrush_T · · Score: 1

      The article completely fails to list France and UK as growing countries ... it is really a lame article.

      But your comment is just ... completely stupid. You cannot separate muslims from frenchs, germans, as two distinct categories. Most french-born muslim only speak french, have a french culture, potentially mixed with north-african culture (or not). EU is not the US. Even if integration is not perfect, it is still very different from the US where people never mix. Global culture has always evolved depending on the migration flows, but the idea that the french culture could be completely replaced by a "muslim" culture is just extreme-right bullshit to feed the "fear of the fanatic bearded muslim terrorist".

    60. Re:invite more people in? by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      The melting pot didn't work; the other cultures (if you can all American a real culture) did not integrate 100% and we did not end up with homogeneity. It's not even clear if homogeneity would even be a good thing.

    61. Re:invite more people in? by Sique · · Score: 1

      I wonder which religion you are talking about. As far as I know, the Christian religion makes a big difference between men and women, it explicitely states, that the wife has to remain silent in the community.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    62. Re:invite more people in? by vel-ex-tech · · Score: 1

      It would be interesting to see Europe in 100 years. There are a lot of similarities between Islamophobia and the "Catholcisi-phobia" back when the Irish were coming off the boats. Think about it: they both significantly differ from Protestantism, and they use the same source material. Islam has the additional prophet thing with a 3rd testament going for it, and Catholicism, from what little personal exposure I've had to it, also has what might as well be a 3rd testament bolted on to it, not to mention having a patron saint for anything and everything.

      I used to have a Catholic friend way back when I was a kid, and I remember being fascinated that while Protestant children were only required to be able to quickly find a verse in scripture given the name of the book, chapter, and verse, Catholic children, at least him, were required to memorize the entire Catechism word-for-word. I didn't ask about the details so perhaps a Catholic here can correct me about what "memorizing the Catechisms" means.

      (Granted, Protestants do tend to memorize certain passages, but my impression is that the choice of which passages is a more personal matter. Then again, there are so many distros of Protestantism, it's hard to keep tract. I'll keep that typo there.)

      The major difference it seems would be underlying culture and unfamiliarity geographic distance creates between Islam distros and Christian distros. I also get the impression that Islam is just at the Catholic/Eastern Orthodox/early Lutheran stage of development. I can only think of two Islam distros which probably belies my ignorance and also laziness about just heading over to Wikipedia now.

      My (USA) state is not one of the states taking in refugees, so ultimately I have to take the word of European posters here as to the true situation. I haven't seen many at all (any?) trying to refute the general consensus that this is a cultural takeover.

      Then again, I live in flyover country, and I have a plethora of ethnic restaurants all within driving distance. I could have authentic ethnic cuisine from just about any place on earth except Africa (and even then, I'm probably just not looking hard enough) and taste a different culture probably every night of the week for a month. Are there many places in rural Europe that's possible? That might be a key to understanding what's happening here as well.

      (Ironically, the only cultures I don't think I could taste with merely a bank card and some gas are Algonquin or Pokegan. I'm forgetting the other tribe that lived around here before my ancestors conquered the continent by advancing the weapon and transportation tech trees rapidly. Salish maybe?)

      Mormonism is probably too new to make a comparison, and from what I understand, Mormons in general are just really nice people towards outsiders.

    63. Re:invite more people in? by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Is letting the national debt balloon really unsustainable? It's not like personal debt. Most countries have been running theirs up for decades, many with no ill effects.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    64. Re:invite more people in? by Sique · · Score: 1

      Islamic culture did both absorb other cultures and kept them alive. It was the islamic Spain, where the jews survived, it was the re-christianized Spain after the Reconquista, where the jews were either forcefully converted to Christianity or burnt at a stake.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    65. Re:invite more people in? by Guppy · · Score: 2

      Except most Chinatowns in the U.S. are where non-Chinese people go to eat exotic food, not a separate city-within-a-city where any non-Chinese who enter will be beaten (or worse).

      Going back a century or more, Chinatowns were ethnic ghettos not that different from other examples. Brought together by the pull of being close together with familiar people with shared backgrounds -- and the push of being excluded from elsewhere.

      Of course, what is different is that the Chinese opened businesses, and so they needed to welcome outsiders to come and spend money there. To the point that in some Chinatowns have become business districts where few Chinese actually still live:
      https://www.washingtonpost.com...

    66. Re:invite more people in? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      I can see the marketing opportunity now, but mainly for grisly role playing games. You walk in, they hand you the keys to a jeep, and you and several friends drive around the city trying to mow down other warlords with a paintball machine gun. Or you kidnap a ship full of people and hold them for ransom. Or....

    67. Re:invite more people in? by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      Austerity because it makes bringing up children so much 'er' 'um' who the fuck can afford to bring up children in the west, screw it, just too fucking hard, find your slaves else where, the only way to ensure you descendants are safe from the raging rich and greedy is not to have any.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    68. Re:invite more people in? by dfsmith · · Score: 1

      As long as you maintain the ability to crash your currency, you can sustain your debt [in that currency]. A lot of EU countries have ceded their currency to the Euro.

    69. Re:invite more people in? by sithlord2 · · Score: 1



      Except that Muslims that have integrated with Western society don't make the media headlines...


      There are lots of Muslims who don't believe that IS and terrorism are the answer.

      --
      ...You are over-qualified and under-paid. If we give you a raise, we will break the cosmic balance of the universe.
    70. Re:invite more people in? by Bartles · · Score: 1

      And yet our unemployment rate is still 5%. Where are all the unemployed buggy whip manufacturers?

    71. Re:invite more people in? by Bartles · · Score: 1

      People have been automated out of jobs since the industrial revolution began. And yet companies still have more than one employed person per company. Clearly people are transitioning to other jobs. Of course, you could always go work picking cabbages, or weaving cloth if you'd really like to.

    72. Re:invite more people in? by cayenne8 · · Score: 1, Interesting

      In the US, ethnic neighborhoods sprang up whenever large numbers of immigrants - the old-fashioned, legal kind - came in from one country. They served as landing zones where new arrivals could be among their countrymen as they adjusted to life in a new society. Over time, all those ethnic neighborhoods faded out as their people spread out into the larger culture.

      The difference is, those immigrants WANTED to integrate into the larger US culture. They wanted to become full citizens, they wanted to learn ENGLISH which was the national language.

      In EU, we see the muslim population, not only staying isolated, but trying to stay that way. They don't want to integrate into the native culture, they want to change it to fit their idea of what the culture should be, and with them, it is largely motivated by their religion, which does not preach integrating and melting in, but that the infidels should be either converted or killed. Its in their koran. (sp?).

      In the US, with the influx of Mexicans...it is not quite that bad, but we do see how they are not wanting to fully integrate and learn English, the language that used to unite us in this country. I would posit to you that you can see this in the fact that more and more we have Spanish speaking radio, TV and print.

      I know from taking foreign language classes, that the best way to learn and a high motivator to learn your new language is immersion. I took classes where English for the most part was spoken only the first day of class, after that, you had to learn the class language.

      Rather than push this in the US, we are now catering to Spanish speaking. Hell, it is getting hard in some areas to find information printed in English, or anyone that speaks what used to be our (unfortunately) un-official official language.

      In the US, we are enabling the isolation.

      And with lower birthrates of Caucasians, we're now seeing their decline....and the country is changing, not wholly for the best from what I can see.

      This lately seems less an integration into the US culture, but a wholesale change in the fundamental culture, much of which is responsible for what made this country great.

      Nothing wrong with keeping your previous culture as pride....but bring it into the country, BLEND in with the US and make it a part of the US,which usually means it changes to fit with the greater culture...not that the previously predominate culture changes to fit the "old country" ways.....not like it seems to be doing today.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    73. Re:invite more people in? by Bartles · · Score: 1

      Those engineers design that machine. Those engineering jobs wouldn't be there if it weren't for automation. Would you rather have 100 low paying jobs instead of machines that create demand for higher paying jobs?

    74. Re:invite more people in? by aphelion_rock · · Score: 1

      In Australia where almost all the population is migrant, the first generation of migrants club together because they don't speak the local language. The next generation are bilingual and the the following generation consider themselves to be Australian but cling onto a few traditions from their culture.
      The big turning point for the Italians, Greeks, Turks who came in their numbers in the 50's and 60's was TV shows like 'Wogs out of work' , 'Acropolis Now' + movies like 'My big fat Greek wedding' where they were able to focus on the differences in the cultures and poke fun at both. I can't wait for the first Muslim / Anglo soap opera / comedy where the next generation are comparing cultures and having a bit of fun with the whole thing.
      The Islamic Clerics of the Middle East have called to shots for centuries and are now under threat from the population requesting a democracy. A democracy focuses more on human rights and freedom's which would seriously de-power them and make the are more multi-religious.
      They are focusing on bringing down our democracies by brainwashing their Islamic supremest goons and sending them out with the other refugees and attacking the democracy by using its weakest point, its freedoms. We must stand up and show them / educate them that democracy covers all religions equally and no one religion is more supreme than any other.
      99% of the Muslims who migrate to our country do so to embrace democracy participate in education and comply with the laws of this country.
      Large numbers of Muslim migrants speaking a different language has its problems but nothing that is impossible to overcome.

    75. Re:invite more people in? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      There are different kinds of immigrant Muslims. The well integrated, secular Muslims whose children or grand children might be as Muslim as the current European is Christian: more than half non believer, but happy to join the families to keep the tradition alive.

      Many Muslims however don't want to integrate. They want to live in Islamic states within the state, where shariah law overrules the states law. If something happens within their community, shariah law will solve it. Police has nothing to say in those area's. These area's where pretty small in the past, but with their 8 children on average and the fact that 50% of them choose a husband/wife from the ultra conservative homeland, means that for every 'radical' Muslim woman there are on average 12 new radical Muslims.

      This causes a lot of problems. Their are too many of them to contain them within their own 'state within the state' and they demand the local people to adjust their habits to their culture. My local school now only serves Halal food, and all local (white) politicians don't have a problem with this. This year the exams are even postponed because Muslim kids are in the middle or the Ramadan. This means that for many families there is no vacation this year. The majority of the middle class people go on summer holiday the week after graduation. This year graduation is postponed with 3 weeks and most workers can't postpone their free days with 3 weeks.

      In the local public pool it is no longer available for males 3 days a week. It's woman only. The woman are no longer allowed to where a normal swimming gear (bad suit / bikini), they should wear one that covers the entire body, legs and arms. This is because some imam interpreted this rule somewhere in the koran.

      Several examples of how the white people have to adjust to the Muslims. Everyone who criticizes these decisions is either a racist an islamophobe or a xenophobe.

      And these aren't people who moved to my country, these are third, fourth and even fifth generations of families who never wanted to integrate. They were all born in this country and always rejected all values that our country stands for.

      They also reject our hard fought for values of freedom, freedom of speech and democracy. They want to replace the current laws with Shariah laws, but since they are only with 12% today, they don't have the democratic majority. With the recent mass immigration their numbers will probably double within 10 years. The immigrants are mostly males and still have to bring their wife(s) and children once they get their citizenship. This means that within 20 years or so, their children will have voting power, and the Muslim parties might become the largest party in our country.

      When you look at the failure to integrate immigrants that started to come in the late 50's, and the failure to integrate their offspring who always use racism as an excuse, I don't believe that the new immigrant will ever integrate (with a few exceptions of course).

      Homophobia and sexism is back alive an kicking, and gay people can no longer walk around the streets like they did 10 years ago. Woman are afraid to walk alone to work or public transport. The police can't control the situation anymore and rich people use private security services to protect themselves. In just a few years political correctness has managed to create the society they feared: a police state, but this time without police but with private security firms on one side and shariah 'police' squads on the other side. The Shariah squad is making patrols in my village. A few weeks ago I was halted by them and they warned me about my running gear. Short pants are not allowed, they are no allowed to come above the knee... Now what can you do against such a squad? They are armed with sticks, police doesn't do anything, so I just stopped doing my daily run... Some people aren't even allowed to let their dogs out because that Shariah squad says Mohamed didn't like dogs, so nobody should let dogs out.

      My region is

    76. Re:invite more people in? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It simply doesn't work here in Europe with the Muslim immigrants. There is a foreign, rich country investing billions in converting Muslims here to the most conservative forms of Islam: salafism. And they are pretty successful. 5 years ago I ended in the wrong region and was being attacked by young Muslim kids who should have been in school. They managed to destroy my tires and I had to run for my life. These were not immigrant nor kids from immigrants. They were kids from kids from kids from immigrants. Of course in every generation one of the parents was an imported husband or wife to keep the purity of their religion as pure as possible.

      There are large groups of Muslims who simply do not want to integrate, and it is hard to distinguish them from the 'good' Muslims because politic correctness forbids white people to criticize some groups of Muslims who often where not loved in their own country (the so called mountain people).

    77. Re:invite more people in? by peragrin · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The melt pot is working though. Those areas fall apart. People move, grow old, look for jobs, they rarely stay in one place. Europe was heavily divided by nationalities until recently. The USA has survived multiculturalism because people could move all over in search for jobs.

      That ability is less than a decade old in Europe. It will take 20-30 years for the effect to be felt.

      Melting pot is alive and well in the USA Is you need proof look up Italian, French,indian, Chinese , Thai , restaurants. In an given city. If you need more proof, look at a grocery store. You can get all sorts of food.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    78. Re:invite more people in? by mjwx · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I think it means, if this trend keeps up, that EU culture, the Germans, the French, etc....will possibly start to disappear, being replaced with the Muslims that are pouring in,

      Same Bollocks I've been hearing for ages. They said the same things when the Indians poured into Britain and Australia... Guess what, they've become part of our culture, same with various Asian cultures (Veit and Indo in Australia), Greek culture.

      In fact, Australia treated Greeks pretty badly when they first started coming over... But they still integrated and are now part of Australian history and culture.

      People like you have no clue. You've spouted the same nonsense for decades and every single time been proved wrong. You're less credible and more annoying that the "THEY TURK UR JERBS" crowd.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    79. Re:invite more people in? by Chuck+Chunder · · Score: 1

      because they don't integrate. Even politicians have to admit that multiculturalism failed.

      This seems to suggest a misunderstanding of what multiculturalism is. The clue is in the name, it doesn't presuppose integration, at least in the sense you seem to be using it, (that would be a monoculture), rather the side by side existence of multiple cultures.

      --
      Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
    80. Re:invite more people in? by mjwx · · Score: 1

      you don't know which culture is "better"? you may be a victim of political correctness. i'm not so let me help you a bit.

      the one that doesn't believe in killing and raping the infidels is better.
      the one that believes woman are equal to men is better.
      the one that believes in not killing homo sexuals is better.

      the list goes on, but it always comes back to western culture is better!

      Having met a fair few Australian Muslims (no, none of them believe in that, that's why they came to Australia) if I could replace every one of my so-called countrymen who agreed with your comment with a Muslim, my country would be better for it.

      Blind belief that a society was inherently better led to the worst atrocities ever committed... Especially in western culture.

      Personally I think the western culture is more at risk of extreme right winger's taking us to a racially motivated war (a second Nazism) by using fear and misinformation than the "Moose Slims" turking all our womenfolk and bacon.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    81. Re:invite more people in? by fredgiblet · · Score: 1

      We ARE taking in refugees. perhaps not quite as many as the Euro countries, but we most definitely are getting many of them.

    82. Re:invite more people in? by qbzzt · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Not 100%, but integrated enough that people with Chinese ancestors can cooperate with and trust those with Italian ancestry.

      --
      -- Support a free market in the field of government
    83. Re:invite more people in? by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

      The same could be said of the Irish-American Republicans during the Troubles. It takes time for societies to integrate and meld together and let go of the past.

    84. Re:invite more people in? by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

      That is pretty revisionist; the Italians and the Irish did not get along at all. Modest integration didn't really stat happening until the 1960s and 70s, but after that the walls came down quickly.

    85. Re:invite more people in? by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      When people in the past talked about melting pot they would sometimes give an analogy of melting together crayons in a pot, then it all ends up one color. Or one culture in other words. But others said it was a good thing to have lots of crayons of different colors rather than mushing it together. What's in America is in between those two, we still have different cultures and they stay distinct even if there's a lot of blur. The full melting-pot version of the Italian restaurant is called Little Caesar's, but there are still plenty of authentic Italian restaurants (some of which are managed by Chinese owners).

    86. Re:invite more people in? by jafiwam · · Score: 1

      From this side of the pond that is significantly less funny.

      Not unfunny enough to do anything about it though is it?

    87. Re:invite more people in? by quenda · · Score: 2

      Muslims and other immigrants are just the highly-visible part of a bigger problem.
      Smart educated capable people are dying out, while less intelligent, uneducated and criminal classes are outbreeding them.
      The same is happening within both Muslim and white european societies, and globally.
      Also, the woman in the black hijab with 6 kids under 8 is a lot more visible than the 30yo muslim woman in the business dress who has not started a family yet.

    88. Re:invite more people in? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The irony is that Europe was already THE most multicultural continent on the planet. Polish, German, French, Italian, Greek... Very diverse cultures and personalities all easily accessible for the people of each nation to experience. This so-called "multicultural movement" abomination we have now is destroying that culture rather than enhancing it as proponents of it claim.

      Lying, meddling, cunts like this, and other George Soros puppets need to be seen as the enemies of the European nations that they are, and held accountable. Russia was wise enough to put an arrest warrant out for that vile piece of filth.

    89. Re:invite more people in? by aliquis · · Score: 1

      As for the 'decline' of Europe, they may be decreasing in number, sure, but they are definitely increasing in wealth (positive economic growth) with the effect that wealth and power is becoming concentrated in the hands of fewer individuals. Raw population size is a poor measure of the well-being of a country, otherwise India and China would be the best places to live.

      Wouldn't your argument require Europe to have a quicker growth than the rest of the world? (maybe for power it just have to be larger in an absolute number increasing European economical size vs the world in total and maybe that actually is happening I don't know.)

      A few people doesn't save the European countries and cultures (or does it because those people you perceive as rich decide the society / culture directions?)

      As someone living in a very public/leader/media oikophobic socialistic democrature I don't have the impression that the riches / the people with money got the control and wins anyway. What is perceived as a decent amount of tax seem to be not what make the most sense for growth (nor for economical equality) but rather for maximum tax output (as high as possible without the economy shrinking so fast that next years money will be less) and the majority/poorer voters will likely want to have "their share" / whatever they can get (even if they call themselves more charitable and giving by that ..) and rich people at-least in democracies seem to somewhat accept that / be ok with that because they are afraid that if the people don't think they get their share they will revolt and simply grab / steal it all.

      Now as long as immigration happen fairly slowly I guess the Muslim fundamentalist/extremist mantra of "We're coming to Europe and we'll turn your daughters and children into Muslims!" may fail and maybe it's their own children who will rather become Europeans at heart rather than Muslims.

      When it happen quickly and enough of them can stay segregated and don't adapt or they may even feel powerful in a group that help them keep their tradition and at least in a small scale / one place enforce their culture over the majority culture at that time and space. That may not completely over-throw society but it's an issue and will enforce their shit upon some unlucky souls who happen to be there at that time. Also it help them keep their ways and become Europeans less, destroy others transition to becoming Europeans (at heart, but then again major political movement against the few may overcome the minority ideology anyway) and possibly have the majority society accept their ways as an isolated group.

      Socialist-idiots (repeat) usually DO think population size matters as do they with the economical size of the nation at large not per capita, here in Sweden I don't know whatever that's what they mean and if people are fooling themselves when they say that immigration will be beneficial / make more money - do they just mean in the sense that the nation and the municipal may have more money in total to deal with but not more money / capita because I don't really see how the later would happen?
      Rather for me while I realize we own and use some things together and that more people who are paying for that may be beneficial (just look how large cities offer more for the people to do even if the people themselves happen to be poorer, I don't really like cities though) what I perceive as my wealth is how much _I_ have / what I perceive as how rich the nation is is how much money the average citizen have not how much money the state or the municipality has.
      And yeah, I consider Swedes richer than say Chinese even if China is a bigger economy than Sweden.

      Anyway for a country like Sweden we're fucked and done as far as the immigrants goes, we will likely never get rid of them and keep on being flooded with them. In Europe at large that could possibly had changed but it takes that the leaders would had been wanting that and at least in the sense of pushing people out again I don't think it will happen. It will just be some socialist shit-hole all of it.

    90. Re:invite more people in? by aliquis · · Score: 1

      The crusades were a direct response to a particular part of that conflict, namely the conquest of lands that European Xians might care about for religious religions.

      Imagine the rest of the Muslim world getting pissed off that America decided to invade Saudi Arabia and have the Marines occupy Mecca.

      Well, the Saudis seem to be very found of building their temples of Islam in all other nations so what why couldn't the west build even greater temples of liberalism, capitalism and pleasure in Saudi-Arabia?

    91. Re:invite more people in? by aliquis · · Score: 1

      happened in the USA. in the 1870's the irish and italians among others came here. culture blended. people in europe complaining are like the tea baggers here in the USA

      Of course it blend, but that make Europe worse.

      And the Americans WERE Europeans and the Europeans were Christians.

      At what rate did immigrants come to USA back in that time? How does it compare to Sweden of today?

    92. Re:invite more people in? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      When the stats say 25% of Muslims sympathize with the actions of violent jihadists, and over 50% want Sharia law, your words come off as lies. The disingenuous counter-attack you thrust at Christians is also typical misdirection that exposes you as a typical PC liar.

    93. Re:invite more people in? by aliquis · · Score: 1

      Do you actually live in Europe? Integration does not work. We have whole suburbs of "insert immigrant nationality" because they don't integrate. Even politicians have to admit that multiculturalism failed. The cultures are just too different and there are far too many at the same time.

      Angela Merkel said it had failed some years ago.

      And then she decided to copy Sweden and flood Germany with almost as many immigrants (but of course Sweden beat itself by taking in twice as many and crushed the German attempt in self-sacrifice and white-genocide.)

      In my view the well-fare states should be destroyed, most of them can't compete on a European scale and can't afford to live here as recent immigrants so they would be doomed to even attempt and the Europeans/rich would be superior and the poor/immigrants would be their labor and servants.

      Also for those who are here already but couldn't afford it at-least if they come recently maybe they would move back home.

      Of course it would lead to equality, shitty neighbourhoods and possibly more crime but parts of that can be solved by segregation and law-enforcement.

      Here in Sweden the left (who claim to be pro equality, abuse the word liberal, claim to be anti-racists and anti-sexist but it's all of course wrong) are just fine with segregated bath time because the MENA people can't behave and it's impossible for women to bath together with at-least some MENA men and hence the solution supposedly is to split the two so the women don't have to meet and be taken advantage of by the MENA men (the "anti-racist" "feminists" of course say that's a problem with men (which is a weird thing since being a man is just a social construct and it's all blamed on the patriarchy but if being a man is just a social thing and not a biological thing and acting like a man is a cultural / society thing too then how the fuck is the problem having a penis and not what you've been taught which IS your culture?) and not with Muslims or black people (I can agree that it's not a race issue as such, just as I don't think it's much of a sex/biological issue, their skin-color or religion is just an indicator for what culture they have been brought up with and what views they may hold and from that follows how they behave, an assimilated adapted and Europeanized Muslim or black person won't behave like that, the problem is most likely recent immigrants who haven't become adapted to how things are here yet.)
      The leftards completely misses the point and just hold back the response and fix for it by their stupid lies and denial. ... anyway, where were I?
      The Swedish society seem to be fine with separating women and men to not have MENA men abused women - so why not separate society to not have various ethnicities / cultures abused each other?

      Why not even rather than segregate a country (which they may be ok with) segregate the world and like, you know, have nations with borders and without people moving around in them changing culture? Wouldn't that be a good and protective measurement? I wonder why no-one has thought about that one before ..

    94. Re:invite more people in? by NicBenjamin · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's a bit extreme.

      The thing is that all Europeans, Muslim Arab ethnics as well as native European humanists/Christians tend to have far fewer kids then their neighbors.

      And while cultural change is inevitable in an immigrant society, you generally don't get wholesale replacement. You get a new assimilated culture that takes most of it's traditions from the original, while gaining some from the new guys (ie: the US is still basically an English, Protestant country, despite the fact nobody admits to being ethnically English and we've borrowed Halloween/Christmas Trees/Italian food etc. from newcomers).

    95. Re:invite more people in? by NicBenjamin · · Score: 2

      Got an example of that happening in Europe? Because it seems like every day somebody's freaking out about no-go-zones in Arab areas, and the next day some pretty blond newscaster is sitting in cafe talking to quite friendly people about how she should already be dead.

      And in the states we get plenty of Arab neighborhoods. They're quite non-violent because there's less drinking.

      Relentlessly, annoyingly commercial, tho. People who actually know Arabs would not think "oh shit a terrorist" when some Arab kid shows up at their Walmart with cash to buy cell phones. They think "I wonder what poor sucker is buying those?" They actually voted Bush the first time.

    96. Re:invite more people in? by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      Hell, the Chinese can co-operate with the WASP elite better then the Italians or blacks.

    97. Re:invite more people in? by Ryanrule · · Score: 1

      Sounds like you need some americans in there to stir the pot.

    98. Re:invite more people in? by NicBenjamin · · Score: 2

      When my dad grew up his grandma lived with them. When she wanted to communicate with her daughter in secret they used Swedish. Their hometown (Rockford, IL) had a Swedish paper for years.

      Spanish is not disappearing any slower then Swedish did. Italian is actually still around, generally in the pre-unification Southern Italian dialects that are gone from Italy proper, and Irish is probably stronger state-side then it is in Ireland.

      If Muslims aren't trying to integrate, why it half the Brits I see on TV are brown-skinned with Geordie accents?

    99. Re:invite more people in? by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      " If Rome had been destroyed around 1400 there would have been no industrial revolution. All books would have been burned and the Latin alphabet would have gone the way of Sanskrit."

      Maybe you are right with regards of the alphabet, and it's difficult to assert if that would have been a good or a bad thing, but about the knowledge? Please remember it was Muslims the ones that took care of the old knowledge and opened the door to Renaissance, not the Europeans.

    100. Re:invite more people in? by NicBenjamin · · Score: 2

      Actually the Irish we got mostly spoke what you would call Gaelic, and everyone else calls Irish. The Irish that managed to stay in their homeland throughout the famine tended to be the English-speakers, which is why today almost everyone there primarily speaks English. During the Civil War both the Irish and Germans tended to be in their own segregated units, because they had trouble communicating in English.

      As for the religious differences, the difference between Catholicism and Protestantism was enough to burn Germany to ground during the 30 years war, and damn near everyone else fought at least one pointless brutal Civil War involving the conflict. It was only the rise of Humanism, and the consequent realization that fighting over God was a fucking waste of time, that allowed the two denominations to make peace.

      Which means that as soon as the Muslims adopt Humanism a bit more enthusiastically that should work fine too.

    101. Re:invite more people in? by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "Darwinian evolution is all about evolving."

      Uhhh... nope. Darwinian evolution is all about fitting, not evolving. Yes, it looks weird, but that's the case. In fact, because it is about fitting, not evolving, it can explain the same why a species evolves and why another doesn't: because fit.

      Darwinian evolution lacks any ethics so, if some culture -be it by overgrowing others, or by killing everybody around, persists and expands, it's the best fitted.

      Humankind, on the other hand, does know about ethics and values, so it's perfectly possible to say that a culture with certain ethics and values is better than other, even in the event of being annihilated by the latter.

    102. Re:invite more people in? by epyT-R · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't say chinatowns are prime examples of what 'multiculturalism' is supposed to achieve. I'd say they're 180 degrees out.

    103. Re:invite more people in? by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 4, Informative

      The melting pot concept is stupid, it just doesn't work to expect immigrants to...

      It works, just over longer time frames than you are expecting.

    104. Re: invite more people in? by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 2

      the current migrants in Europe have an ideological reason for migration and by said ideology are raising their children not to integrate because their ideology states that the natives should integrate their customs and religion.

      What all of them? Not one single immigrant has ever integrated?
      I think you are taking the extremist view, since I personally know quite a few 1st and 2nd gen middle eastern immigrants who behave just like the rest of us.
      Sure there's some bad eggs, but there are bad eggs in any group you choose to name.

    105. Re:invite more people in? by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 1

      you don't know which culture is "better"? you may be a victim of political correctness. i'm not so let me help you a bit.

      the one that doesn't believe in killing and raping the infidels is better.

      Saudi Arabia and Iran both have lower murder rates than the US

      the one that believes woman are equal to men is better.

      Pakistan, Turkey and Indonesia, among the most populous Muslim nations have all had Female political leaders, unlike the US.

      the one that believes in not killing homo sexuals is better.

      the list goes on, but it always comes back to western culture is better!

      Only if you watch too much TV and believe what your local talking head feeds you...

    106. Re:invite more people in? by amiga3D · · Score: 2

      I disagree. I feel that by and large the melting pot did work. The thing is that it doesn't happen overnight or without some friction. The one thing is a common language. I feel that having everyone learn English is a big part of it. I don't have a problem with anyone who wants to immigrate to better themselves but I feel they should do so in accordance with US law. To tolerate millions of people flooding in without registering is crazy.

    107. Re:invite more people in? by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Well sure, if you stop further immigration for several centuries. Otherwise by the time the population has become homogenous another group will have come along.

    108. Re:invite more people in? by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 1

      The more people you invite, particularly when it's a richer country inviting poorer people, the more funding is needed for social programs just to keep the status quo.

      It's little more complex than that.
      The economy is what gives us wealth and nice lifestyles. Do you want to give that up? Most people don't, and since a growing economy needs more people to feed it (increasingly wealthy people choose not to work shit jobs, so you need some poor people somewhere to fill those to keep the economy growing). And where do you get new people from?
      So it's not so simple as saying stop inviting poor people. We as rich people (on a global scale) need poor people to stay rich. then we turn around and say we don't like those poor people stinking up the place, get them out of here! Well you can't have it both ways.

      Jobs rarely if ever increase by as much as 1:1 for every immigrant. The economy can't grow if the immigration program outpaces any gains

      So what are the numbers? Do you know what they are? I have a rough idea and it's in the scale of 'trivial'.

      Frankly, the governments these people are fleeing from should be held to a higher standard

      And how exactly do you do that? There is one proven method called invasion, but that hasn't worked out so well in the past...

    109. Re:invite more people in? by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      It's better based on survivability. If you get outnumbered you wont survive. An evolutionary process doesn't take into account your high moral ground. Only grubby and brutal survival matters.

    110. Re: invite more people in? by kubajz · · Score: 1

      I was wondering about your assertion that you cannot decide which culture is better yet you can decide that mixing them is bad. Is it because we have past bad experience with mixing? And is mixing today the same as mixing in the past? And is it because we do not have past bad experience with individual cultures? And are the cultures the same as in the past? My point is - some cultures probably are better and there should be no shame in thinking that. What we should not do is use violence or force to promote ours (that is what I believe based on our culture)

    111. Re: invite more people in? by kubajz · · Score: 1

      I am glad that survivability is still not considered a 'good' by the majority of western culture. Hopefully its weak Christian roots will last a bit longer. God help us if we reach a time when policies are based on survivability of the most powerful...

    112. Re: invite more people in? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I'm a European and I find many of the comments on this thread racist, or whatever you want to call it. But talking about how "muslims will take over" then it's instantly below my bar.

    113. Re: invite more people in? by ian_billyboy_morris · · Score: 2

      Yes they are, I have several Muslim friends at work, some of them don't drink, but they go to Christmas parties etc and are indistinguishable from anyone else. One Muslim girl I work with is half Greek half Pakistani, she drinks but doesn't eat pork, oh and her boyfriend is white-english. How much more integrated do you expect people to get? Do they have to change their skin color? Give up their religion and culture totally? Honestly, class is far more important than race. Everyone I work with is middle class, as a result they actually feel they have a stake in society.

    114. Re:invite more people in? by IllForgetMyNickSoonA · · Score: 1

      The EU Constitution doesn't have any references to christianity, much less to "white christians" being the only acceptable culture/group/whatever you wanted to say. There were some countries rooting for the inclusion of explicit reference to christianity into the consitution, but they lost. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... for details.

    115. Re:invite more people in? by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "The EU Constitution doesn't have any references to christianity"

      No, certainly not. It only starts saying "DRAWING INSPIRATION from the cultural, religious and humanist inheritance of Europe..."

      What do you think is such a "religious inheritance" that can draw inspiration to the concept of Europe? Do you remember "The Christianity"? The Holy Roman Empire?

    116. Re: invite more people in? by loufoque · · Score: 1

      Given integration and multiculturalism are opposed things, I'm not sure what your point is.

      Some people think that immigrants should give up on their own culture and strive to be like the people of the country they immigrated to.
      Others think that those immigrants should be accepted as they are, and that their different culture should be accepted as just as valid as that of the natives.

      The ideal immigration policy is a mix of both, yet usually politicians are extremists so it doesn't work.

    117. Re:invite more people in? by IllForgetMyNickSoonA · · Score: 1

      Religious inheritance of Europe is not only christianity. It is predominantly, but NOT ONLY. There is definitely nothing in the EU consitution defining it to be only about "white christians", as you originally claimed.

    118. Re:invite more people in? by thegarbz · · Score: 2

      Australia didn't have a culture that defined us as clearly as many of the European ones. The differences in European countries is jarring. By comparison traveling from Australia to NZ to west Canada or northern USA doesn't seem very different.

    119. Re:invite more people in? by Beck_Neard · · Score: 1

      > maybe it's their own children who will rather become Europeans at heart rather than Muslims

      This is in fact what's happening. Religion is in rapid decline all over the world. Christians may cry about this, but it affects all religions equally. Yet some people seem to think that islam is something that is inherited through one's DNA.

      Anyway, I'm not espousing a pro- or anti-immigration position. I'm just saying that the arguments given against immigration usually tend to be extremely absurd, often bizarrely absurd.

      --
      A fool and his hard drive are soon parted.
    120. Re:invite more people in? by Cederic · · Score: 1

      Could I ask where you live (approximately)?

      Also keep running and if some cunt assaults you demand justice.

      Shit, if you're stopped by people with sticks ring the emergency services indicating you're feeling threatened and ask if it's ok to use lethal force to protect yourself. Trust me, that'll get the police to care.

    121. Re:invite more people in? by LubosD · · Score: 1

      Poor in what way? The costs of living are a lot lower here. People in our country have the lowest chance of becoming impoverished in the whole EU. We have the best children healthcare in EU, even children from the UK fly here to get treated. Unlike all west European countries (e.g. Germany, France, UK), we've made it into the top 10 most peaceful countries in the world.

      We wouldn't care about immigration problems (that the west is so reluctant to solve by protecting the borders), unless you weren't trying to shove "your" immigrants up our a** based on quotas you made up.

    122. Re:invite more people in? by Cederic · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The West Indians came to the UK. They were mistreated, but they engaged and they assimilated.

      The Indians came to the UK. They weren't treated well, they often retained their own culture but over time the barriers have dropped and they largely embraced British culture.

      The muslims came to the UK. They demand British culture change. They demand Sharia law. They mutilate their children. They use violence to pursue their archaic superstitious beliefs and try to impose them on others.

      Sorry but this is a different scenario. Some muslims are engaging, assimilating, embracing British values, finding a balance between their religion and the culture of their country.

      Too many aren't, and are showing no signs of wanting to.

    123. Re:invite more people in? by jandersen · · Score: 1

      As for the 'decline' of Europe, they may be decreasing in number, sure, but they are definitely increasing in wealth (positive economic growth) with the effect that wealth and power is becoming concentrated in the hands of fewer individuals. Raw population size is a poor measure of the well-being of a country, otherwise India and China would be the best places to live.

      Which brings us neatly back to the original issue: An increasingly elderly population in Europe will have to rely on the productivity on a dwindling number of people of working age, unless we invite immigrants in and allow them to take part in our societies on an equal footing. We haven't really done a very good job of it so far, but it isn't too late. Plus, of course, we have to delay retirement for most people - we simply don't have the resources to support a large population of retired people. And just to forestall the comments: I am approaching 'retirement age' rapidly, but I, for one, am more than willing to go on as long as I can hold it together. Now, if only employers will wake up and change their attitudes as well.

    124. Re:invite more people in? by sociocapitalist · · Score: 2

      I guess this is how the long term "revenge" for the crusades will happen.

      Muslims seeking revenge against Europeans for the crusades is like Japanese seeking revenge against the U.S. for their defeat in WWII.

      How about Muslims seeking revenge against Europeans for colonization? I can tell you that is a very sharp thorn at the moment, at least in France.

      --
      blindly antisocialist = antisocial
    125. Re:invite more people in? by sociocapitalist · · Score: 1

      You think muslims around the world are all part of some grand conspiracy to 'take revenge' for the crusades? No, they're just people who see the much greater opportunities and wealth available in European countries compared to the shitholes they live in, and make the rational decision to move there for personal gain.

      As for the 'decline' of Europe, they may be decreasing in number, sure, but they are definitely increasing in wealth (positive economic growth) with the effect that wealth and power is becoming concentrated in the hands of fewer individuals. Raw population size is a poor measure of the well-being of a country, otherwise India and China would be the best places to live.

      In democratic countries votes count which means that in certain towns of Europe the vote is already dominated by Muslims.

      The greater the change in population growth rates, the more this will continue and the Muslim culture will become more and more dominant.

      --
      blindly antisocialist = antisocial
    126. Re:invite more people in? by Hognoxious · · Score: 2

      Which means that as soon as the Muslims adopt Humanism a bit more enthusiastically that should work fine too.

      They better hurry up. While the thirty years' war was indeed an absolute disaster, they didn't have nuclear weapons back then.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    127. Re:invite more people in? by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      Western civilization is very resilient.

      So is theirs.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    128. Re:invite more people in? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      I have lived in Amsterdam, a city with many immigrants, most of them muslims, for all my live. I've visited many European cites as well as as a few in North America and Asia. The only time I ever had the feeling of being in crime-ridden ghetto was in downtown Los Angeles.

    129. Re:invite more people in? by sociocapitalist · · Score: 1

      Unless that culture results in lower birthrates, then the killing, raping, misogynistic homophobic culture is better - in an evolutionary sense.

      Buillshit. The planet is overpopulated as it is. We don't need more people - we need better people.

      --
      blindly antisocialist = antisocial
    130. Re:invite more people in? by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      The unemployment rate only takes into account people actively looking for work. A lot of people have stopped looking for work and dropped out of the labor market. There is also a large percentage of people that are underemployed, that want full-time work and can't get it or that are performing jobs well below their skill level because they can't find more suitable employment.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    131. Re:invite more people in? by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      The question is, how will that play out in the long run now that increasing percentages of recent immigrants hold values fundamentally hostile to the nation they are immigrating to? In Europe it is already causing problems, and those problems are going to get much worse in the coming decades. It is also causing problems in the US, Australia, and Canada. It is hard to say how will trend over time for them.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    132. Re:invite more people in? by Beck_Neard · · Score: 1

      I want the best people to come to my country. I want doctors and engineers and hard workers. I don't give two shits if they're muslim or christian or buddhist or atheist. If I go to a doctor to get heart surgery, I don't care if the doctor is a muslim, I care if he's a good doctor. And so what if he's muslim anyway. His kids or his grandkids will be atheist, like everyone else's kids.

      --
      A fool and his hard drive are soon parted.
    133. Re:invite more people in? by fazig · · Score: 1

      The thing is that they're not losing their 'roots' in many European countries.
      They might lose their native languages over the time, but specialized schools, maktab, make sure that they do not loosen their values. There they receive 'education' in Islamic studies and learn what their god-given rights and duties, mostly due to Quran recitals and readings. The things that children learn there are often anti constitutional.

      Of course, not every Muslim child is attending one of these schools, it's not compulsory education, but there are still plenty of children who do so because their parents make them. And through the indoctrination and the fact that these secular societies are already large enough, the odds are that their own children will attend such a school as well. Sure, there are those who escape this cycle and have no desire to return to it, but the fact that this is still going on with 2nd, 3rd and even 4th generation Muslim immigrants, is worrying.

    134. Re:invite more people in? by Beck_Neard · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You wrote 11 paragraphs on how islamic culture is being forced upon you yet not even a single mention of where you live... yeah I'm calling bullshit unless you actually provide useful info that backs up your experience

      --
      A fool and his hard drive are soon parted.
    135. Re:invite more people in? by sociocapitalist · · Score: 2

      I want the best people to come to my country. I want doctors and engineers and hard workers. I don't give two shits if they're muslim or christian or buddhist or atheist. If I go to a doctor to get heart surgery, I don't care if the doctor is a muslim, I care if he's a good doctor. And so what if he's muslim anyway. His kids or his grandkids will be atheist, like everyone else's kids.

      Yes but you're making the assumption of integration, which is desirable but which is, unfortunately, not happening.

      I am not against immigration with integration. I am against the too rapid immigration without integration that is happening in Europe today and that will, if allowed to continue without said integration, impose its culture on my children.

      --
      blindly antisocialist = antisocial
    136. Re:invite more people in? by aliquis · · Score: 1

      As long as we have a well-fare state (and not enough police and guards) it's totally legit criticism regardless even if the immigrants themselves may not even be causing factor with the first one (then again they'd likely vote to uphold it - but make it a human right to not have to deal with such demands.)

      Make collectivism & insurances something voluntarily to participate in instead and it make open borders better working (I at first wrote a border-less world but in a border-less world it wouldn't matter because there the rights would be the same everywhere and hence as far as migration and well-fare goes borders would make no difference (but enforced collectivism could still be there.))

      Raising the lowest people have likely done us quite a bit of good but with open borders it's destructive so .. pick one. Personally I'd rather see we help the poor develop their own societies (possibly let people in who came for the culture and society rather than for the well-fare.)

    137. Re:invite more people in? by houghi · · Score: 1

      Much will depend on the people of the individual countries. Legium and The Netherlands have a complete different mentality. I have seen where two nephews from Turkey came at around the same time.

      The one who went to The Netherlands was in almost anything a Dutch person. His dialect was Dutch. His manners were Dutch.
      The person in Belgium was still talking with a heavy accent. Spoke Flemish, but badly

      Yes, this is an individual thing. I have however seen this over and over again with others and have spoken with many.

      There is a reason why the terrorists in Paris are partly from Brussels.All their life they have not been accepted and to some that feels as if they have nothing to win or lose and that is the best basis to let them become terrorists.

      Anotther anecdote was from a Marrocan friend who aws stopped by the police in the Netherlands. He told me he was at awe how he was treated. In Belgium they would yell 'Pas' and then do whatever they need to do. In The Netherlands they introduced themselves, explained the situation and what not.

      Just this made him much more at ease.

      As easy as it is to explain, as hard is to do something about it. It is mostly the fear of the unknown. Where the Dutch are much more in search of the unknown; the Belgians are much more comfortable with the know (Yes, generalisations). Compare it to being extrovert or introvert.

      I do not know how to change that. I do not have the solution.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    138. Re:invite more people in? by houghi · · Score: 1

      Make that spouting nonsense since the beginning of time. Since always people have been about Us and Them and Them were worse than Us and out to destroy Us.

      Or do some think that when Atillah was roaming the world, people were waiting with open arms on those who came from the next village?

      It is only when you travel that you notice that the basic thinking of the average person is identical. Raise their kids. Have a nice time with Friends. Do some sex.
      That is about it.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    139. Re:invite more people in? by dasunt · · Score: 1

      I've had African Muslim immigrant neighbors. As far as I can tell, they want a safe place to live, a decent job, and modern amenities.

      Not really that much of a difference.

      Everything is relative. The gap between WASPs (however mythological it may have been depending on the time period in the US) and less desirable immigrants from southern/eastern Europe seemed just as large to the people then as the gap between US and Muslim cultures to you. In 1,000 years or so, you're future doppleganger will probably be arguing that the difference between US/Muslim culture was nothing compared between the difference between US and Alpha Centaurian culture. After all, US citizens and Muslim immigrants have the same number of limbs. :p

    140. Re:invite more people in? by gay358 · · Score: 1

      I am very afraid of this recent development. It seems that Merkel and some other leading politicians are either incredibly naive, unable to do basic calculations about the unsustainability of this mass movement of Muslims to Europe and what this will mean to the European countries.

      Islam is very hostile religion towards gays and not that enlightened in other ways either. It is incredibly naive to think that we could change the way they think for most of these persons who move here. And many of them are ultra fanatical about their religion. It is also only wishful thinking that we could easily employ most of these people in reasonable time frame. We already know that even when a lot more persons came here, the employment percentages have stayed really low. And despite claims, most of these asylum seekers have really low education and extremely large percent are even illiterate. And even many of the educated ones don't have education that is really comparable to the European education and they don't speak local languages etc. And we cannot afford to be a welfare office to the rest of world, which is much larger than Europe. And the population density of large parts of Europe is already quite dense.

      Large percentage of population is getting really angry that the politicians don't seem to listen their worries and just let about everybody in, even though this will lead Muslims becoming majority in relatively short time frame, collapse of welfare system, collapse of human rights, creeping sharia laws, terrorism, losing rights of gays, women etc.

      If this mass movement is not stopped soon, there will be total chaos in Europe. Terrorism, economic collapse, famine, wars, breaking down of countries, civil wars, perhaps ethnic cleansings, mass persecution of gays etc.

      In my opinion it is no coincidence why Muslim countries tend to be such horrible places. It is because of the religion and I certainly don't want sharia law, terrorism, being threatened because of being gay, chaos etc to my home country and other European countries. I cannot understand why Merkel and Sweden for so long are doing this kind of social experiment that will lead to really horrible result.

    141. Re:invite more people in? by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      The melting pot didn't work; the other cultures (if you can all American a real culture) did not integrate 100% and we did not end up with homogeneity. It's not even clear if homogeneity would even be a good thing.

      The melting pot DID work. Up until about 5 or 6 years ago, there was relative racial harmony. However, then we began a crusade of overt media and top level government attention depending on the race of individuals involved in incidents, which has created a rift between the races that the media and the administration continues to encourage.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    142. Re:invite more people in? by gay358 · · Score: 1

      If we continue just let in all persons from these shithole countries which are shitholes more or less because of Islam, it won't take long before European countries turn into shitholes as well. Islam becomes majority religion with all of the backwardness and welfare state collapses because there simply is not enough money in Europe to become the welfare office for the billions of poor people on Earth. It doesn't matter what is the motives for these welfare refugees, but the end result will be the same.

    143. Re: invite more people in? by gay358 · · Score: 1

      It doesn't help if some integrate, when large percentage doesn't integrate and breed at much faster rate than others. And even areas where ISIS now rules, the majority of people probably didn't support them, but ISIS was still strong enough and brutal enough the hijack all the power.

    144. Re:invite more people in? by T.E.D. · · Score: 1

      What we have in Europe right now is a diaspora - people from a totally foreign culture forced to live with another. Of course, one can argue that the refugees are in Europe by their own will, but the economic and social hardships in their own countries is so bad, that I would consider this a diaspora.

      The political correctness of the hosts will allow the new foreign culture not to assimilate, and the children of these foreigners will end up outsiders in their own country.

      This is a prediction, not a known fact. You could test it if you want by looking at the results of previous generations of diaspora in other countries. There are certainly plenty of examples to chose from.

      The only examples I can think of that had the results you describe were ones where the existing residents wouldn't allow the new ones full membership in society (including full-blown legal barriers).

    145. Re:invite more people in? by LubosD · · Score: 1

      My country has a stable influx of workers coming from the east (mostly from the Ukraine, but also from Vietnam) and they're well known as being hard working people. Nobody would be afraid if more of them started coming.

      But if you check the employment rates and welfare collection rates in immigrants in west European countries, I don't think these folks are coming to get a job and work. I think they're coming to have an easier life at others' expense.

      The question always is whether the immigrants will adapt to their new country or whether they will alter their new country to look more like the old one. For example, setting cars on fire is probably not an original pastime activity in Paris.

    146. Re:invite more people in? by orzetto · · Score: 1

      So you are saying that Christian culture is the worst:

      The problem with many European racists is that they blindly assume that all muslims believe the Quran. Just like for Christians and the Bible, most muslims do not read the Quran, even if they keep a finely decorated hardcover copy in the house. In the case of the Quran it's actually even less likely they are going to read it, since the Quran makes a point of being in Arabic, while the Bible is usually translated. Even if many non-Arabic speaking muslim countries include Arabic in their school curriculum, often ostensibly to allow reading the Quran, no one can reach a level of skill sufficient to do so in school (think of how many US citizen can read the Bible in French or Spanish after high school).

      Of course you will find plenty of evil in the Quran, just like in the Bible. Of course Mohammed did evil things, so did Jesus (being rude to his mother—note that it is a violation of the fourth commandment, punishable by death in the Bible—, proclaiming war in Matthew 10:34-35, vandalising property and inciting a mob against the merchants in the temple, etc.), and of course all these parts are ignored, repressed and buried among Christians. But if they are read those quotes and told it's the Quran, they promptly believe it, because Islam is evil, right? (NB: of course Islam is evil. I am pointing out Christianity, Judaism, and for that sake Buddhism are not better.)

      We all despise Saudi Arabia and Iran for their barbarous executions of homosexuals, but can you remember what England did to Alan Turing? That's England, a country noted for centuries for being one of the most liberals on the continent, not Italy or Poland, just two generations ago. And it was a war hero they were punishing.

      Point being: the Quran is not more representative of muslims than the Bible is of christians. Some believe that nonsense (extremist nutjobs), some say they believe but don't really care, some believe they believe even if they don't know what is in the books (looks like you), and some dismiss the whole humbug. "Culture", as you intend it, is a mostly personal issue, and there is no way to determine that Mr. X from Syria is less liberal than Mr. Y from Oslo. Variations between single persons dwarf the average difference between population by orders of magnitude.

      --
      Victims of 9/11: <3000. Traffic in the US: >30,000/y
    147. Re: invite more people in? by jwdb · · Score: 1

      Immigrant muslims in Europe have been around for at least 1 if not 2 generations (first gulf war and before that) and have by and far not integrated at all in European culture

      False. Belgium brought over many people from Morocco in the 50s to work in the mines and industry, and those people have by and large integrated. There's a new, more recent wave of immigrants that haven't yet, but give it time.

    148. Re:invite more people in? by david_thornley · · Score: 2

      One thing that strikes me historically is how many people had no confidence in Western civilization and parts of it. They were almost always wrong.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    149. Re:invite more people in? by RicktheBrick · · Score: 1

      Science will prove all concepts in religion false. Adam and Eve, the flood, the need for a savior, fear of punishment after death, are all concepts that have hindered the development of mankind. Religions will die and with them most cultures. It may take a couple of generations but it will happen.

    150. Re:invite more people in? by PPalmgren · · Score: 1

      If you want to understand the timeframes that this actually works, watch the movie Meet the Patels. It takes one to two generations for ethnicities that self-isolate to integrate, primarily through their kids.

      http://www.imdb.com/title/tt23...

    151. Re:invite more people in? by PPalmgren · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The U.S. Melting Pot has one big thing that these other countries lack: a lack of history. People in the US are not resistant to their immigrant compatriots adoptiong American culture, and in fact readily share it. Most European countries like Italy, Greece, France, and so on, have a hidden yet obvious nationalistic bias tied to heritage. In France or Italy, you will never become a true Frenchman/Italian as an immigrant even if you adopt their culture, whereas in America, the Indian who Americanizes him/herself is applauded rather than shunned.

      In Europe, ethnicity is closely tied to nationalism, and the borders are drawn accordingly. That is not the case in the US because the only native ethnicity available is one that was sadly wiped out.

    152. Re:invite more people in? by ultranova · · Score: 1

      There must be something better, but temporarily providing a better standard of living through ever-ballooning debt (e.g., European Socialism except Norway) or by massive exports of natural resources (e.g., Norway) ain't it - those just aren't sustainable plans.

      Neither is hoping Joe Average continues blaming migrants for his economic insecurity yet fail to listen to any demagogue who promises to deliver him from them. As Trump, Le Pen and their ilk demonstrate, that plan is already failing. Even Putin's misdeeds are ultimately just a way to distract Russians from their troubles.

      We either figure out how to shield average people from economic problems and fast, or we'll be facing another World War, which will almost certainly go nuclear.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    153. Re:invite more people in? by lgw · · Score: 1

      We either figure out how to shield average people from economic problems and fast, or we'll be facing another World War, which will almost certainly go nuclear.

      You cannot shield the average person from "economic problems" by definition. However, the average person can shield himself, through basic fiscal responsibility, from ordinary downturns. "Other people" can care for the most unfortunate 5% of so of society, no problem, but it simply doesn't work at 50%.

      You can try to avoid economic problems, but that's mostly about policing bubbles, scams, bailouts, and other forms of malinvestment. Normal economic downturns are, well, normal, and shouldn't be scary, merely unpleasant.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    154. Re:invite more people in? by slew · · Score: 1

      Mormonism is probably too new to make a comparison, and from what I understand, Mormons in general are just really nice people towards outsiders.

      That is not fully my experience regarding Mormonism. Although all the Mormon people I know are relatively friendly, there is a limit to Mormonism "nice" with respect to outsiders.

      For example, don't even think about getting an invitation to a Mormon Wedding. As non LDS temple-recommended members are not allowed in wedding at Mormon temples and if your Mormon friend dares to having a civil wedding to include their friends it will cause them to be punished by the church. To me it is hard to consider that "nice" to outsiders

      Also, don't walk through the public area of BYU campus holding hands or wearing short pants and expect a "nice" reception (you are basically painting yourself as a target as an outsider with this behavior).

      Also, the Mormon church members aren't really that nice to slightly lapsed Mormons (not enough tithing, or partaking in a little caffeine, alcohol, or premarital sex), they are effectively permanently shunned (even by family). I'm not sure I would generally categorize that behavior as "nice" to outsiders (i.e., a lapsed Mormon would then be considered an outsider).

      But at least the Mormons I know are certainly are friendly. The church, not so much... :^(

    155. Re:invite more people in? by russotto · · Score: 1

      The gap between WASPs (however mythological it may have been depending on the time period in the US) and less desirable immigrants from southern/eastern Europe seemed just as large to the people then as the gap between US and Muslim cultures to you.

      It may have seemed so, but it was not so.

    156. Re:invite more people in? by slew · · Score: 1

      Your whole "filter" hypothesis is really shows how we are often trapped by first-world thinking.

      You might think if the atlantic ocean "filter" is somehow blocking *non-western* immigrants now, the pacific ocean filter would be similar or even better. However, history shows otherwise. Nearly all immigrants are "economic" immigrants, neither more liberal or more conservative. They are looking for a better life *economically*.

      Large immigration wave from Asia to the US starting in the 19th century (and immigration checks and "tickets" were non-issues) did not result in "cream-of-the-crop" immigration coming to the US. The Taiping rebellion in southeast china caused economic catastrophe (colapse of industry and trade) in the region resulting in famine and flight (sound familiar). Some might argue that this current wave of economic immigration in Europe is similar to these early waves of Asian immigration to the US.

      Of course as is part of history, the US responded to the first wave of Asian immigration by passing the Chinese Exclusion Act in 1882 (1923 in Canada). Such laws effectively lasted until the US entered WWII (pacific front).

      Perhaps Europe could learn from the US's (and Canada's) mistakes in this matter... But perhaps not...

      The reality is that it is merely expedient for the current crisis for immigrants to venture to Europe. They could even travel to Asia, but they are not as welcome there. I don't think it's the "ocean" stopping them. History shows the ocean doesn't really these types of immigration waves. As another example, during the Irish Potato Famine, why did so many of the Irish come to the US/Canada/Australia instead of continental Europe which was much closer? Because as "unwelcome" as they became later in many of those places, they had the opportunity and the decision was mere expedience even if it involved crossing an ocean.

    157. Re:invite more people in? by lsatenstein · · Score: 1

      I think it means, if this trend keeps up, that EU culture, the Germans, the French, etc....will possibly start to disappear, being replaced with the Muslims that are pouring in, staying isolated and not melting into the EU cultures, and they are reproducing at a greater rate.

      I guess this is how the long term "revenge" for the crusades will happen. If the Muslim populations get high enough, they can vote in the changes to the laws and the old world cultures will fade.

      The economy drives the birthrate. As an example, Israel, with it's Arab population were first fearful that the 8 children per family Arab birthrate would swamp them discovered that jobs, two working parents, luxuries (car, TVs Vacations, Education) put the Arab birthrate at 2.1 or 2.2 children per family. There is no need to use the wife to be constantly pregnant if there is going to be pensions and old age security,
      As for Texas and the states with higher birthrates. The 2.2 children per family is due to immigration (legal and illegal). Otherwise Texas would follow Europe's pattern

      --
      Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
    158. Re:invite more people in? by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      I think the argument here is that we're using two different definitions. When I was growing up, melting pot meant that everyone assimulated and became indistuinguishable from the mainstream culture. Ie, no Spanish language or slang, no additional holidays, no special neighborhoods, etc. As in students who spoke something other than English in schools were punished (with beatings, not making this up).

      Of course that sort of thing would never happen. But around the late 70s or so the phrase started meaning something different, just an attempt to mix in instead of being insular, or starting to melt.

    159. Re:invite more people in? by mikael · · Score: 1

      Yes. All that's true. Aberdeen had a oil boom back in the 1980's. Traditionally terraced apartments and townhouses when to young graduate families, and everyone could live in the city. Then the oil companies started offering £40K/contracts for 2 weeks on/off. The idea was that workers could just stay wherever they were in the country. But they soon realized that going to the city offered a higher standard of living that staying elsewhere. So they all came up. There was a housing shortage, and townhouses were converted into bachelor pad apartments. Then years later, there's a shortage of homes for families in the city because ... they were all turned into apartments. So they had to build new homes elsewhere. When it does come to granting planning permission for new homes on the edge of the city, Labour and Conservatives have adopted the same policy. New homes should be built on the edge of the other parties constituencies. So the new home are usually buily beyond the green belt zone and require a car to get anywhere since bus services aren't profitable serving little population "islands".

      Same story in Edinburgh. Labour invented "tolerance zones" for prostitutes (who wanted to work somewhere residential for safety). Needless to say, residents didn't want them, especially not the kerbcrawlers and drug dealers that came along with the prostitutes. But such intolerance was ignored, the residents sold up, property developers moved in and converted the homes into luxury apartments for single professionals. They then shouted and screamed about the damage to their property prices. Many people I know tried living in Edinburgh, but everyone really wanted to live in the areas with good schools while the council was absolutely determined to get professionals to move into the deprived areas in order to push up house prices, so they left the city instead.

      My parents got council houses when they were children as their parents homes were literally blown up the Germans. The council estates back then had a higher standard of living then than they do now. Backyard gardens, streets wide enough for bus services. Getting a council house back then required that you proved you were respectable and had ties to the local community. Now it's almost the opposite.

      It's the EU laws on "sustainable land development" that is pushing for high density. Ireland was building "a house in a field" developments which sold like hotcakes. Then the EU stepped in and demanded a density of at least 40 homes/acre, which is the density of a large village street.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    160. Re: invite more people in? by guruevi · · Score: 1

      Belgian here, some have but a large portion of them haven't and they are importing more and more people by marriage under family unification laws; 10y ago there were problems in Brussels and Ghent and Ostend and Liege, all the major cities have issues. Why do you think Vlaams Blok/Belang has 25-35% of the national support amongst the 12(?) parties?

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    161. Re: invite more people in? by jwdb · · Score: 1

      Belgian as well, and although there are problems, my impression is they're not as widespread as you imply. They're also predominantly among recent immigrants, which is why I said my first post "give it time".

      Also, Vlaams Blok hasn't had 30% support in years, and their resurgence in 2012, at least in Antwerpen, had more to do with people being sick of SP.A. Are you maybe thinking of NVA? That has more to do with Vlaams/Waals than Belgian/Moroccan.

    162. Re: invite more people in? by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 2

      What will be the religion of their children ? Have a guess ?

      ...and this matters...why?

    163. Re:invite more people in? by Cederic · · Score: 2

      You mean, apart from being British and living here?

    164. Re: invite more people in? by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      I was thinking survivability of society and civilization. What's the point of inviting people in to destroy everything? Then we all have nothing.

    165. Re:invite more people in? by Bartles · · Score: 1

      Actually I am the complete opposite of progressive. That's just another word for authoritarian. It is very clear to me by looking at history that automation has always led to more wealth and a higher standard of living.

    166. Re:invite more people in? by ooloorie · · Score: 1

      Europe's economic "growth" is anemic at best: http://tinyurl.com/j7nyh8a And that's not even taking into account the widespread misrepresentations in European economic statistics.

    167. Re:invite more people in? by jez9999 · · Score: 1

      And I'm calling you a fucking moron. What the GP said could easily describe one of several European countries that have been (and are being) overrun by Islamic immigration. As he talks about the postponement of exams thanks to Ramadan I'm guessing he is describing the UK.

    168. Re:invite more people in? by jez9999 · · Score: 1

      There is plenty of room available to build new houses, it's just that we don't

      Are you talking about the UK? If so, bullshit. We build 100k new houses a year. Also take a look at a satellite map of the UK. See all those big grey scars over the green area? That's fucking huge towns and cities that are rapidly expanding. Believe it or not, some people value having a countryside rather than covering all the land in fugly concrete jungles like London.

    169. Re:invite more people in? by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 1

      Well sure, if you stop further immigration for several centuries. Otherwise by the time the population has become homogenous another group will have come along.

      Part of the puzzle is learning how to integrate, so that when the new people come along you know all the likely issues (communications, culture, religion etc) and deal with them appropriately.
      Here, we had issues after the WW2 European migrations, then in the 80's with the post Vietnam migrations, now were seeing the same old complaints with the Middle Eastern migrations. There's no new issues, it's not like we had no crime before we had immigrants, it's just that simple people find it easier to blame the others who look different for their problems.

    170. Re:invite more people in? by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 1

      Exactly, I mean sure we'll just have to let those thousands of girls who get raped, people assaulted by groups,

      Because there was no crime in Europe before the immigrants came...

    171. Re: invite more people in? by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 1

      You mean just like European colonialism 200 years ago?

    172. Re:invite more people in? by swalve · · Score: 1

      So what? You can't force culture. People either take to it or they don't. And there will always be good people.

    173. Re:invite more people in? by Beck_Neard · · Score: 1

      Ok... which ones? Specifics.

      --
      A fool and his hard drive are soon parted.
  2. Idiocracy by goombah99 · · Score: 2

    Well off people don't reproduce as much. But as Idiocracy commented, the idiot crowd can just as well advance the gene pool. Whether we remain civilized or resort to all out tribal warfare, slavery, or feudalism, or leave the world in a choking pulluted, flooded, plague ridden morass with radioactive no-go zones humanity itself will persist. Our aspirations for a egalitarian intellectually absorbed transcendent society are less likely or stable than colonialist domination.

    In terms of reproductive habits, it seems like the fast breeders evnetually win unless the elite take a cruel approach.

    THat said, I think the progress of mankind has been one of elevation, peace, understanding and freedom. So clearly the cynical view is not supported by societal evolution and birth patterns to date.

    On the otherhand there's this years crop of angry republicans that are not very far removed from the president of idiocracy.

    --
    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    1. Re:Idiocracy by Moheeheeko · · Score: 2

      Life is indeed imitating art, i'm just waiting for that first hit season of "OW, MY BALLS!" to start anytime.

    2. Re:Idiocracy by Notorious+G · · Score: 2

      Surely you've seen "Jackass" - the series as well as the movies. "OW, My Balls" is not intellectually far removed from the current state of 'reality' television.

    3. Re:Idiocracy by Pseudonymous+Powers · · Score: 2

      "OW, My Balls" is not intellectually far removed from the current state of 'reality' television.

      That's an unfair comparison. At least in Ow, My Balls there was something exciting happening. The latest wave of reality TV shows are just people standing around whining. Also, Ow, My Balls had a certain pathos. With the Kardashians, by contrast, I frankly don't care whose butt it is or why it's fart--I mean, breaking the internet.

    4. Re:Idiocracy by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      I don't get this argument: it is the "civilized" people who have left the world choking in pollution, flooded and plague ridden with radioactive zones. It isn't the stupid people.

    5. Re:Idiocracy by lister+king+of+smeg · · Score: 1

      you mean Americas Funniest Home Videos or do you mean jackass?

      OR

      http://lmgtfy.com/?q=youtube+k...
      a lifetimes worth on ball busters

      Idiocracy is already here

      --
      ---Saying gnome 3 is better than windows 8 not so much a compliment as it is damning with light praise.
    6. Re:Idiocracy by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      I take it that you missed "Jackass". Same material, slightly higher concept.

    7. Re:Idiocracy by goombah99 · · Score: 1

      I think the distinction is between aspiration and outcome. Sadly outcomes seem to defeat aspirations in every case. When we build great new inventions they become advantages of war not advantages for peace in most cases. Things like the internet or solar energy are the exceptions not the rule.

      --
      Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    8. Re:Idiocracy by goombah99 · · Score: 1

      google barely shows a blip if you search for it, but here's the news on Johnston running in 2016
      http://dailycaller.com/2015/04...

      --
      Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    9. Re:Idiocracy by blue9steel · · Score: 1

      Well, if we're picking fantasy candidates then I want David Brooks of the New York Times to run.

    10. Re:Idiocracy by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      Then why are "the stupid people" flocking to the "civilized peoples' " lands?

      I will take a world with rising seas and pollution...and choked shelves with cheap food and 2015 medicine than whatever else your fantasy mind is imagining would exist, which outcomes studies of dictatorships and communism show don't happen in reality.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    11. Re:Idiocracy by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Non corrupt?

      BOOOORING!

      Bring on the hairpiece! I wanna hear what he has to say. Seriously, the only politician today worthy of a drinking game, I sure hope he will win!

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    12. Re:Idiocracy by leonardluen · · Score: 1

      Cowboy Neal always seems to do well in the Polls around here

    13. Re:Idiocracy by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      Everyone is making the mistake of taking him seriously. It might all be a giant con. He showed open contempt for Republican voters many years ago when he was asked about running for President.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    14. Re:Idiocracy by Yunzil · · Score: 2

      My observation over the past few years is that hell hath no fury like liberal media towards white males.

      Then you're bad at observation.

      Being an independent I'm rooting for Trump vs Sanders.

      ...Really bad.

    15. Re:Idiocracy by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Plagues are largely pre-modern-medicine. Look at what happened when Ebola came to the US and Europe. Radioactive zones? Much smaller than the effects of deforestation practiced by more primitive cultures. Choking in pollution? Working on that. Aside from carbon dioxide, pollution is a local problem.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    16. Re:Idiocracy by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      Salon seems to publish at least one a week bashing the ever hated white male.

      Almost as bad as the weekly (sometimes almost daily) "How are men going to fix the problem of women not wanting to be programmers?" article on Slashdot.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    17. Re:Idiocracy by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      In most of human history, you simply didn't have a choice. Either you were a monk or you procreated freely. Technology really didn't give you much of a chance. Nobody had an opportunity to avoid having a big family in order to gain an economic advantage.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    18. Re:Idiocracy by liquid_schwartz · · Score: 1

      Those were great citations, I'm much better informed now ;-)

  3. Not an actual concern for rational people by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The only people that are impacted by a negative growth rate are politicians, CEOs and economists, who see a lack of growth as the end of the world.

    1. Re:Not an actual concern for rational people by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      Strictly speaking, it isn't the end of the world. However, two things:

      Fewer people limits the amount of available labor. Until there is a lot more automation, the number of people is the productivity of the human race. And that is all sorts of labor: menial and knowledge-based.

      Secondly, and less theoretically, fewer people in the younger generations to pay into social programs means that a greater burden is on the younger individuals every generation. This will eventually cause collapse unless there is some other way to spread the cost. That's a big deal for Europe.

    2. Re:Not an actual concern for rational people by blue9steel · · Score: 1

      Well, if the pie isn't growing, I can guarantee you there is going to be a lot of fighting over the size of the slices.

    3. Re:Not an actual concern for rational people by LubosD · · Score: 2

      This is true if the number of people reduces across all age groups. But less children being born means old people becoming a larger and larger portion of the society. And THAT is a major problem.

    4. Re:Not an actual concern for rational people by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      This WOULD BE true if we didn't already have more people looking for work than work available. More idle hands are not going to solve that problem but compound it. We are already at the point where those who still have a job have to carry those that don't. What we certainly do NOT need is more people without any marketable skill.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  4. The current majority will fade out... by bogaboga · · Score: 1

    Those that constitute the majority now will surely fade out in a few decades. That's guaranteed.

    What makes it worse is that there isn't much that current governments can do about it, though the majority of the population doesn't look forward to being the minority.

    This confirms one thing: Times ahead will be interesting.

    1. Re:The current majority will fade out... by StillAnonymous · · Score: 1

      Governments have CAUSED the so-called population problem. Their pandering to bankers through deficit financing and bailouts, allowing them to steal nearly all of the public's productivity gains have left people with a situation where it is very expensive to raise kids if you're not on welfare. As a result, you're seeing people not having kids until their 30's now, and having *maybe* 2 of them.

      Add to this the completely biased court system in western countries that make it absolutely profitable for a woman to get a divorce, leaving the guy eating dog food and living in a dank, rented basement while he pays for her and the kids every needs, while being lucky to get weekend visits with his kids that aren't supervised, is it any wonder that guys have little desire to have kids?

      Oh, but now that the baby boomer generation is dying off, and we're normalizing the population trend again, it's this huge fucking problem because of the broken system our corrupt politicians set up that demands infinite growth in a finite world or their fiat system crashes. So let's haul in millions of immigrants as fast as we can to patch up this problem, and in typical government fashion, create a new problem on top of it. Let's not even think about what happens when a critical mass of them stay on welfare and don't contribute to the system, resulting in net-loss to the whole fiasco, making things even worse.

      The resulting implosion will be spectacular, to say the least. I'd rather not be around to see it though.

  5. More in Europe are dying than are being born by JustNiz · · Score: 2

    Don't worry!
    The entire population of Syria are already on their way to help.

    1. Re:More in Europe are dying than are being born by Moheeheeko · · Score: 2

      They've already begun attempting to impregnate every woman they see as well. For the betterment of Germany of course!

    2. Re:More in Europe are dying than are being born by JustNiz · · Score: 1

      Well, see it from their angle, its probably the first time they've ever seen a woman that doesn't look like a small elephant trapped in a black tent.

    3. Re:More in Europe are dying than are being born by myowntrueself · · Score: 1

      Well, see it from their angle, its probably the first time they've ever seen a woman that doesn't look like a small elephant trapped in a black tent.

      They assume that any woman who shows her face and the shape of her body must be a whore.

      --
      In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
    4. Re:More in Europe are dying than are being born by JustNiz · · Score: 1

      Speaking as a European that now lives in the US (so I've seen both sides), thats not actually true.
      In fact by comparison to the attitudes of most European women, the attitudes that many American women apparently consider normal makes them look like completely self-centred gold diggers.

    5. Re:More in Europe are dying than are being born by JustNiz · · Score: 1

      I think having like 5 or 6 kids very early is average in their culture, so it doesn't surprise me that many of the women are still back in Syria looking after the kids and expecting the next moneygram from Germany.
      Once they get to Europe and experience freedom, I wonder how many of the men just start a new life and totally ignore their liability back home.

  6. Syrians by ickleberry · · Score: 2

    There are more than enough Syrians being left in to cover up for the shortfall.

    We don't actually need more people in Europe though. Giving people a decent standard of living is all that matters, it's just the old-world financial system that demands a constant supply of new people to pay for the upkeep of the non-working population. Making sure these people have a decent quality of life is not as labour intensive as making sure they get a massive pension that they can spend on importing cheap electronics from China.

  7. and how long before the next Hitler comes to stop by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 3, Interesting

    and how long before the next Hitler comes to stop that?

  8. This is a good thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    We have too many humans on this planet already, too much trash and waste. For once we aren't reproducing like a disease. Keep it up europe

    1. Re:This is a good thing by CaseCrash · · Score: 1

      Well the rest of the world is extremely net positive overall. A quarter million new people or so a day.

      This just means that European culture will die out as it's being replaced by immigrants from the middle east and Africa. (Who tend to have a net positive rate so Europe will expand more later on, just not White Europe)

      --
      No, that link you posted to a web comic we've all seen a hundred times is not "obligatory."
    2. Re:This is a good thing by U2xhc2hkb3QgU3Vja3M · · Score: 1

      Agent Smith, is that you?

    3. Re:This is a good thing by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      That means we have to send them some development aid goods. Weapons and ammo, mostly.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  9. Why is that a problem? by lorinc · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Actually, you need far less people today to produce more work than were needed 100 years ago. Many people are just plain useless for today's society. Less people is the opportunity to have less useless people, that is less angry dudes that don't have a clue of what to do with their life. Unemployment will eventually back down. Overall happiness will probably increase.

    1. Re:Why is that a problem? by misexistentialist · · Score: 1

      A shrinking population is heading towards 0, and in welfare states the useless people are the last to go

    2. Re:Why is that a problem? by watcher-rv4 · · Score: 1

      hahahahaha amazing.

    3. Re:Why is that a problem? by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 1

      Not all trends continue forever.

      In fact I'd go so far as to say none ever do. (outside of pure maths).
      But that will never stop the hype or fear mongers...

  10. Life Extension by avandesande · · Score: 1

    If there is a case for life extension this is it. Seems like such a waste for a person to live ~70 years, about 20 of which they are at their peak.

    --
    love is just extroverted narcissism
  11. Integration by Etherwalk · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Do you actually live in Europe? Integration does not work. We have whole suburbs of "insert immigrant nationality" because they don't integrate. Even politicians have to admit that multiculturalism failed. The cultures are just too different and there are far too many at the same time.

    Except when it does. If you have a large, secular society that orients more along the lines of politics than race, culture, or religion, than over time immigrants and more importantly the children of immigrants become part of the larger society. Some people are real jerks to outsiders no matter where they are or what culture they join--the idea is over generations to try to get their kids to be more and more accepting of outsiders, to be part of the larger community.

    Integration is not an experiment that succeeds or fails. It's life, and people and even entire populations change across as little as fifty years. That explains everybody's racist uncle.

    1. Re:Integration by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Ah yes, the good old "it's always our fault" argument. No matter what, crime, failed integration, rioting asylum seekers, sexual assaults? There always has to be some way to spin it that it's our fault for being too racist.

      > secular society

      Hard to keep a secular society going if you import millions of very religious people.

    2. Re:Integration by mjwx · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Do you actually live in Europe? Integration does not work. We have whole suburbs of "insert immigrant nationality" because they don't integrate. Even politicians have to admit that multiculturalism failed. The cultures are just too different and there are far too many at the same time.

      Except when it does. If you have a large, secular society that orients more along the lines of politics than race, culture, or religion, than over time immigrants and more importantly the children of immigrants become part of the larger society. Some people are real jerks to outsiders no matter where they are or what culture they join--the idea is over generations to try to get their kids to be more and more accepting of outsiders, to be part of the larger community.

      Integration is not an experiment that succeeds or fails. It's life, and people and even entire populations change across as little as fifty years. That explains everybody's racist uncle.

      This.

      If integration is such a failure, explain why England and Anglo cultures are still around? We've been integrating for literally centuries. When a new group of immigrants comes over, they slowly become part of the fabric of a nation. If they don't it is almost always the fault of the host nation for forcing them into ghettos and disallowing them the chance to participate in a nations culture.

      Australia treated the Greeks pretty badly when they first started coming to Oz post-war. They were called "New Australians" and some stores flat out refused to serve New Australians. However the Greeks responded by becoming part of Australian society over time. They stopped being New Australians and just started being Australians. They adopted a lot of Australian traditions but this is a two way street. Some Greek traditions became part of Australian society. This process usually ends up with the best parts of a new culture being integrated in, usually food, celebrations and parts of the langauge as people travelling to a new country tend to only want to keep the parts they liked about a society.

      Its the same with Italian Americans who bought pasta, not Fascism to the US or British Indians who bought curry, not bad hygiene to the UK.

      The racists always complain that immigrants "dont speak the English" whilst this is ONLY partially true the racists like to ignore the fact that their children will speak English as their primary language if not, their only language. Integration is a process that takes a generation. Claiming it has failed after 5 years is stupidly short sighted.

      Having grown up in Australia, I've heard all this bollocks before. First it was the Asians who would take all our jobs and destroy our culture, then it was the Indians, Now its the Muslims. Next decade, it'll be someone else. Same bollocks with a different target and not once have their predictions of doom and gloom come true. When I was 8, the local Racist league told me I'd never get a job because all the Gooks were coming over to take them. Guess what, I've been gainfully employed for the most part since I was 17 (which is over 15 years ago). I bet that same idiot is sitting in the same shitty part of Adelaide spewing the same nonsense... the only thing that has changed is "Gook" is now "Muslim".

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    3. Re:Integration by Marquis231 · · Score: 1

      I have no mod points mjwx, but your insightful comment rings true to my experiences growing up in Perth. The xenophobia is cyclical while the ongoing successful integration is consistent.

    4. Re:Integration by rastos1 · · Score: 1

      Excuse me but it seems to me, that you are saying: "if the integration works - because the immigrants have the same hierarchy of values - then it may work". Duh.

      However what we see in reality is, that the hierarchy of values is different. So if you say it "it does work", then I say "citation needed". I'm willing to believe that it is possible to show working integration of an particular individual/family. But on a large scale, the things are different.

    5. Re:Integration by sociocapitalist · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "If integration is such a failure, explain why England and Anglo cultures are still around? We've been integrating for literally centuries. When a new group of immigrants comes over, they slowly become part of the fabric of a nation. If they don't it is almost always the fault of the host nation for forcing them into ghettos and disallowing them the chance to participate in a nations culture."

      There is a difference between a culture who is willing to integrate and a culture who expects everyone else to adapt to them. When the percentage of the latter in a community is small, the children, at least, will integrate over time. When you get enough of the latter together in a community they then refuse to integrate with the existing community - when the percentage is high enough not only do they refuse to integrate but they expect the integration to be reversed and the community to adopt the immigrant culture.

      When you have a great influx of immigrants they tend to stay together in the same areas. This is not 'forcing them into ghettos' but a self-made situation where people who speak the same language, have the same religion, etc. want to live near others of the same.

      Here in France there is, and has been for quite awhile, an ongoing effort to keep ghettos from forming. Developers of new housing estates are required to provide some percentage of the new construction as social housing and low income families are then distributed across the country instead of being localized.

      So no, I do not agree that the problem we see today is necessarily the fault of host countries, unless the fault is to allow such rapid immigration of a culture that refuses to integrate with the existing culture whenever enough of them are present in an area to put pressure on each other to conform to their religious constraints.

      --
      blindly antisocialist = antisocial
    6. Re:Integration by wired_parrot · · Score: 1

      Integration is not an experiment that succeeds or fails. It's life, and people and even entire populations change across as little as fifty years

      It depends how you measure integration. You're looking at it in terms of language, which immigrants adapt to in the span of a couple of generations. However, for most immigrants the most important aspect of their culture is their religion. And even older immigrant populations in the United States have not easily changed their religious affiliation. Otherwise how would you explain Minneapolis' large Lutheran population (scandinavian migration) as opposed to the majority Catholic population in Boston (irish catholic immigration)?

    7. Re:Integration by Etherwalk · · Score: 1

      Excuse me but it seems to me, that you are saying: "if the integration works - because the immigrants have the same hierarchy of values - then it may work". Duh.

      However what we see in reality is, that the hierarchy of values is different. So if you say it "it does work", then I say "citation needed". I'm willing to believe that it is possible to show working integration of an particular individual/family. But on a large scale, the things are different.

      Large Scale like The United States? Cause it kind of works here.

  12. And yet, productivity is rising. by duckintheface · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "Natural decrease is a major policy concern because it drains the demographic resilience from a region diminishing its economic viability and competitiveness." What a silly argument, given that productivity and and GDP are still rising rapidly in Europe.

    Automation is accelerating with AI finally becoming a real thing. Economic output is rising in absolute terms and on a per-person basis. What this should mean is a rising standard of living. But in the US all the benefits of per capita productivity are going to the "owner class". This is the stuff of revolutions.

    As long as there are intelligent, healthy people who are unemployed, the birth rate has not fallen enough.

    --
    "He took a duck in the face at 250 knots." -- William Gibson, Pattern Recognition
    1. Re:And yet, productivity is rising. by umghhh · · Score: 1

      This is remarkable to the point. You can have a look at unemployment levels and wonder about this.

    2. Re:And yet, productivity is rising. by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 1

      Yeah the GDP is rising, but I think (disclaimer: I'm not a European so I can't exactly speak for them) that what they're trying to say is that other economies are outpacing theirs. The US and a lot of Asian countries are at any rate.

      Between the bad Eurozone (economic) conditions and the recent resurgence of Fascism in Europe, it's looking like Europe's second renaissance may come to an end soon.

    3. Re:And yet, productivity is rising. by russotto · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Between the bad Eurozone (economic) conditions and the recent resurgence of Fascism in Europe, it's looking like Europe's second renaissance may come to an end soon.

      If you want to stop a resurgence of fascism, try addressing the issues the Fascists are addressing. Give people the choice of thugs who appear to be on their side, or open minded decent politicians who are willing to allow hostile thugs to run rampant for the sake of their ideology, people will often pick door #1.

      That means you do not open the doors wide to people from incompatible cultures, and then demand that your current residents accomodate their culture. And especially you do not tell everyone complaining about crime committed by those migrants that they're racists and should just shut up.

    4. Re:And yet, productivity is rising. by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      I think Europe would be a lot better off if it had gone whole hog on the EU back in the 90s.

      If leader of Europe was an actual job title, and that guy/girl/whathaveyou had the defense budgets of all the European states to work with, then it's a lot harder for a) Syria to get out of hand, b) Putin to get frisky, c) refugees to flood the continent, etc.

      Moreover if somebody is responsible to the voters of Greece AND the voters of Germany, and he's got a relationship with voters in both areas, then you might actually have gotten a solution to the debt problem, rather then kicking the can down the road with what is it? Three bail-outs? Because without generous terms the Greeks will need constant bail-outs, but the Germans don't trust anyone in power in Greece so they don't give generous terms...

      I really feel like I'm watching the collapse of the European project, and nobody notices.

    5. Re:And yet, productivity is rising. by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 1

      I suppose one possible good outcome would be to stop this insanity of using the race card to shut down political opponents even when race has nothing to do with anything.

  13. Government's fault by LubosD · · Score: 1

    One of the problems is almost non-existent state support for new families. They do almost nothing for them, and then they say, well, since you're not having children, we need to bring more migrants in.

    If you check birth rates of East European countries before 1989, you'll notice that the rates were pretty good back then. Although communism sucked in every imaginable way, one of the good things was that the state had your back when you had children.

    Nowadays, if you decide to have children, your family expenses grow a lot and you lose a single monthly income at the same time. That's enough to bring a middle-class family into poverty. Note that in some European countries, you do receive a pittance for a limited time as a substitute for the lost income, but it's still a joke.

    Putting the child(ren) into daycare and working is a no-go (at least here) for women, because the new democratic governments closed down all state-run daycares and the private ones are so expensive, it would cost you the whole income for using them.

    I'm strongly right-wing, but this is something that needs to change radically. The only other option I see is denying state pension to people that had no children or a single child, because they provided no future tax payers to keep the pension system functioning.

  14. Re:and how long before the next Hitler comes to st by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    5 or 10 years. Give or take.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  15. So... by U2xhc2hkb3QgU3Vja3M · · Score: 1

    Did Netcraft confirm this?

  16. Re:This is why the immigration push by Opportunist · · Score: 2

    The problem is that the appeasement politics of leftist parties are actually pissing off lefties like me now.

    Seriously. We've arrived at a point where it simply isn't manageable anymore.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  17. Not revenge, just their old pattern by MikeRT · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I guess this is how the long term "revenge" for the crusades will happen.

    Between the death of Mohammed and the time of the First Crusade, the following happened:

    1. The Caliphate invaded and destroyed the Persian Empire. [Much conversion by the sword of Zoroastrians]
    2. The Caliphate took control of over 50% of the Byzantine Empire. [Mass conversion by the sword of Christians]
    3. The Caliphate conquered the Iberian peninsula and attempted to conquer the Merovingian Empire in modern day France.
    4. All throughout that period and well into the Renaissance, Muslim pirates and raiders took huge numbers of slaves from Southern Europe and coastal territories as far as Iceland.

    So no, not revenge. Just a series of efforts by the Muslim world to expand rather violently.

    And after that period we have the annexation of much of Eastern Europe, Lepanto, Vienna, need I go on? Anyone who goes "oh noes, teh Crusades" about anyone other than the poor Orthodox Greeks is an ignoramus.

    1. Re:Not revenge, just their old pattern by avandesande · · Score: 1

      The children of Genghis Khan swept through the middle east and pretty much destroyed everything. A lot of historians think that was the time when Islam turned insular and violent.

      --
      love is just extroverted narcissism
    2. Re:Not revenge, just their old pattern by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      Actually, the early Caliphate didn't practice conversion by the sword. What did happen is that non-Muslims had to pay a tax. Said tax was a hefty slice of the Caliphate's income, and they started to have monetary difficulties when people started voluntarily converting, in fact.

    3. Re:Not revenge, just their old pattern by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      And if you refused to pay the tax it was the sword. You can't say you aren't converting people by the sword if you happen to be holding a sword and threatening them with it while you are doing the converting.

    4. Re:Not revenge, just their old pattern by Imbrondir · · Score: 3, Informative

      What? Did you read anything about the conquests of muhammed? 600+ years before any famous Khan was around, Islam was plenty violent already. Even in a brutal time, he would top off most the lot.

    5. Re:Not revenge, just their old pattern by crbowman · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry, my choice is pay a tax or convert to islam and not pay a tax, and you call that voluntary?

    6. Re:Not revenge, just their old pattern by ultranova · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry, my choice is pay a tax or convert to islam and not pay a tax, and you call that voluntary?

      Paying a tax seems a rather large step up from being burned to death.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    7. Re:Not revenge, just their old pattern by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 1

      So no, not revenge. Just a series of efforts by the Muslim world to expand rather violently.

      Is there any other way to expand? I mean that is why we speak English right?

    8. Re:Not revenge, just their old pattern by ooloorie · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry, my choice is pay a tax or convert to islam and not pay a tax, and you call that voluntary?

      It's like the Obamacare penaltax: its meaning changes according to circumstances. But because it's good for you, you should stop complaining about it!

    9. Re:Not revenge, just their old pattern by crbowman · · Score: 1

      Absolutely but neither is a voluntary action. If I don't have the money to pay the tax and I don't convert am I still killed?

    10. Re:Not revenge, just their old pattern by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Absolutely but neither is a voluntary action.

      No, but judging an ancient nation's attempts religious liberty by modern standards is like saying the Cooke and Wheatstone telegraph compares badly against the modern Internet: it's absolutely true but also meaningless.

      If I don't have the money to pay the tax and I don't convert am I still killed?

      It would take a historian to answer that, but presumably your taxes are based on your income.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

  18. Re:Low birthrate is a product of Socialism by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    How the heck does that make sense? If you have many kids in such a system you're cashing in because if everyone who doesn't have kids is paying for everyone else's brats, would you be paying or receiving if you had many brats?

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  19. Re:So what? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    Too bad we have them already.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  20. Re:euro superiority by Teun · · Score: 1

    Every way, no of course not.

    But in some or even many ways :)

    Think of teen pregnancies, single mothers, gun cult & subsequent number of victims, inefficient use of power generated, lack of language skills = problems communicating with or understanding of different cultures, not knowing geography outside of home county, relying on force instead of wits, lots of creationists etc, etc.

    And yet, all in all very nice people in a great country with a fantastic, positive and probably unrivalled drive to make tomorrow better than today.
    Now we just have to agree on what this 'better' encompasses...

    --
    "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
  21. Number of people employed in Germany at 25y max by ffkom · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Just for the record, citing from recent news: "With 43 million people employed and fewer than 2 million unemployed, according to new data from the national statistics office, Germany’s active workforce is now more robust than it’s been for decades."

    Those who cry for more babies are mostly those who'd like to hire more cheaply.

    1. Re:Number of people employed in Germany at 25y max by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 1

      Those who cry for more babies are mostly those who'd like to hire more cheaply.

      That works out to about 4%. I can't remember the exact numbers, but somewhere around 5% unemployment is considered ideal. Too little and you lack the ability to hire new staff and grow.
      So 4% is on the verge of needing more people. And unless you have a whole bunch of teenagers about to enter the workforce, the only other way to get new people is immigration.

  22. Re:Let's not forget religion by russotto · · Score: 1

    If "responsibility" leads to extinction or submission, I'll take the opposite.

  23. demographic resilience by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

    Oh please! Just say it! Cultural purity and political/religious/economic supremacy.

    --
    “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
  24. Re:Mind upload by russotto · · Score: 1

    However, a post-modern culture that propagates not through genes but through memes must face the curse of its own thriving, and the only way out is mind upload. Let the lands Europe be occupied by Allah-worshippers. Little of value is lost. The new Europe will be united in a safe place that exists non-physically, out of the touch of Muslims.

    Oops, the Ayatollah and the Grand Mufti just declared your computer an abomination and smashed it. So much for Europe.

  25. Just make having children a prerequisite for... by ffkom · · Score: 1

    ... receiving alimony payments, and watch spouses line up for impregnation.

  26. Re:Anybody ask Japan about this? by myowntrueself · · Score: 1

    Japan has come right out and blamed ease of access to porn as the culprit. Men are turning to dolls, pillows, and video instead of put up with women's shit.

    Modern Japanese women are just outright scary to average Japanese men. They have needs and wants and expectations and stuff. Traditional Japanese values just do not prepare men for this.

    --
    In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
  27. Re:Natural trend.. by liquid_schwartz · · Score: 1

    Summary: The middle class and wealthy of most modern countries are selfish and don't want to raise children because this is the me generation.

    To be fair I would advise my son not to have kids for the following reason - Your kids can be taken away from you rather easily by their mom. Family courts are a joke and that joke is on men. For any man to not want kids based on the very real risk of them being taken away and you being given limited "visitation" is not being selfish but quite rational. For my daughter I'd say kids are optional but she is in a very different situation by virtue of being female.

  28. Yeah, but only in the short term by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

    It'll average out to 1:1 in the long run.

    --
    systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
  29. Crusaders sacked Constantinople by XXongo · · Score: 4, Informative

    (remember that the rescue of the Byzantine Empire was the original motivation for the Crusades--the whole thing was ignited by the Byzantine disaster at Manzikert, after all.)

    Uh, the crusaders didn't protect Constantinople-- they sacked it.

    It was richer, and less well defended, than the Islamic lands that they were nominally aimed at, and they wanted the loot. The crusaders were not the good guys in this portion of history.

    If you want to know, why did Constantinople fall to the Moslems? The answer is, it fell because it never really recovered from being sacked by the Fourth crusade.

    http://www.historytoday.com/jo...
    http://www.shsu.edu/~his_ncp/1204.html
    http://www.historynet.com/fourth-crusade-conquest-of-constantinople.htm

    1. Re:Crusaders sacked Constantinople by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 2

      Uh, the crusaders didn't protect Constantinople-- they sacked it.

      Well, I said it was the original motivation. I didn't say they were good at it. They did sort of lose focus there--particularly the Fourth Crusade, which, as you state, would be the one that sacked Constantinople.

    2. Re:Crusaders sacked Constantinople by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The Crusades were not "nominally aimed at" the Islamic word. The Fourth Crusade, was very much aimed at heading towards Egypt, but a clusterfuck of poor planning and the pure stupidity of Alexios IV led to the sack of Constantinople.

      To be brief, here are the bullet points.

      The Pope called for a Crusade to head to Egypt.
      Venice volunteered to provide the means to get there at the expense of their own trade.
      Due to poor planning, not enough crusaders showed up leaving Venice fucked economically.
      Alexios IV, the son of the ousted former Byzantine emperor, convinced the crusaders to take Constantinople and put him in power.
      When he became emperor, it was discovered that the money he promised them didn't exist.
      The crusaders, especially Venice, needed the money as they had invested everything into going to war, so they took their payment in form of conquest.

    3. Re:Crusaders sacked Constantinople by T.E.D. · · Score: 1

      That was only the 4th Crusade.

      The motivation wasn't really personal. The Latin Christians didn't set out to sack Constantinople. However Venetians were the only westerners with a fleet that could accommodate them all, they didn't have the money to pay for passage, and as a trading Empire the only thing over there Venice was interested as a land exchange was the Bosporus. To control the Bosporus you pretty much have to control Constantinople.

      So basically the Venetians manipulated the Crusaders into taking Constantinople for them.

      If you want to know, why did Constantinople fall to the Moslems? The answer is, it fell because it never really recovered from being sacked by the Fourth crusade.

      That is probably more than half of it, yes. However, even weakened as it was, its walls still held out for another 250 years (longer than the USA has existed) until the Sultan brought in canon to knock them down. So you could also blame gunpowder. Considering that same sultan held half the Balkans already, and son and grandson proceeded to conquer all the land up to Austria, you could also argue that militarily the Byzantines had no right whatsoever to exist anymore, and the crusades (despite what happened in the 4th one) had just been staving off the inevitable.

  30. Re:and how long before the next Hitler comes to st by Dunbal · · Score: 4, Interesting

    There will be no "next Hitler", just like there will be no "next Napoleon". Certainly Hitler was no Napoleon. Napoleon was a military genius but his famous military accomplishments (having lost very few battles despite at times tremendous odds against him) were far shorter lived than his achievement with re-writing and organizing law: the Napoleonic Code lives on today in many guises because it makes sense. Hitler was an appalling strategist, an amateur tactician at best (who got lucky a very few times), a ruthless and reckless politician who however managed to motivate a demotivated people through his obsession with national spirit and national identity - crucial for a broken people who had lost everything through a devastating war, revolt and punitive blockade and reparations.

    Of course there can always be someone worse than Hitler in the future. But the times are different and the solution will therefore be different.

    --
    Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
  31. The road to steady state. by XXongo · · Score: 1

    What we need is the moderate middle ground between unlimited exponential growth of population, and catastrophically shrinkage of population. In the long term, we'll have to reach a level of birth rate equaling the replacement rate. The two questions are, what is that level, and how can we reach that rate without economic disruptions.

  32. population by Smiddi · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Population growth and reduction (in this case) is NOT the issue. The issue is that economies have been created and will only work based on population (and subsequent sales) growth; this is why immigration is often "used" to keep a countries population growing. As soon as sales reduce the model falls over. A re-think of the way global economies operate is what is needed.

  33. Re:and how long before the next Hitler comes to st by bfpierce · · Score: 1

    It'll end up over here not over there this time I gather.

  34. "I don't know how one would go about fixing it" by tlambert · · Score: 1

    I will say that EU immigration is somewhat more difficult only because I don't speak the native language [....] But I don't know how one would go about fixing it.

    Try learning to speak the native language.

    They were flexible enough to let you in; be flexible enough to learn to fit in.

    In other words, quit trying to fix *them* to suit you, and instead fix *you* to suit them.

    1. Re:"I don't know how one would go about fixing it" by dyslexicbunny · · Score: 1

      Ok but there are a number of languages spoken in Europe. The notion of learning German to work in Germany then having to learn French to live in France (say I want a job change down the road) somewhat daunting to many folks (but the obvious reality to do it). It's not impossible and if I was so driven I would do so. However it is a large barrier to entry compared to moving wherever within the US and putting my time elsewhere (though learning a new language is on there).

      And it was presented as deaths > births being a problem. Japan has its problem too. I merely suggested one solution. Folks in their respective nations could get to making babies too.

    2. Re:"I don't know how one would go about fixing it" by tlambert · · Score: 1

      > In other words, quit trying to fix *them* to suit you, and instead fix *you* to suit them.

      This from a Brazilian. You'll probably disagree but here is my two little coins.

      [...]

      That's markedly different form the USA, where people are Asian-American, Afro-American, Sino-American, Italian-American etc. That always strikes me as restricting wrt to freedom. Maybe it's just an impression...

      Thanks for the response.

      The truth in the U.S. is that the U.S. is perhaps the most multicultural nation there is. And for the most part, everyone gets along with each other fine.

      The "hyphenated American" phenomenon is actually about emphasizing cultural origin. With the exceptions of "African American" and "Native American", which have been adopted as a politically correct reference to the persons race, these are in large part worn only as a badge of pride in cultural heritage.

      And yes, there tends to eventually be a loss of a distinctive cultural identity, in terms of exclaiming ones origins, over time. When an African American marries an Irish-American, and they have a kid, and that kid marries the kid of a Italian-American and a Russian-American, and they have a kid... it's really hard to try and label the child as anything but simply "American" at that point.

      Where the problems come about is in larger enclaves.

      Larger enclaves are capable of, and have a tendency to, turn inward. You are lucky to not have that problem in Brazil, if everyone is living their lives peacefully, side by side.

      In the 1960's, we had an enclave problem in the U.S.. There were white enclaves, and black enclaves, and they did *not* live side by side. This was primarily due to entrenched racism, dating back to the South being economically agrarian, and employing slave labor, and then exacerbated by "The Reconstruction" following the Civil War. The Reconstruction followed similar lines to that of the German Weimar Republic, after the first world war, under rules imposed by the Treaty of Versailles.

      In other words, it really pissed off the losers in the war, while the victors effectively rubbed their faces in the fact that they had lost. This bred incredible resentment against African Americans in the South. And so enclaves.

      And this leads us to, perhaps, the largest social experiment ever performed in history.

      The U.S. embarked on a policy of forced integration to overcome the enclaves. To a large extent, this has worked, although there are growing enclaves based on economic lines, due to high unemployment and discrimination in employment based on educational level due to the elimination of blue collar work. There generally aren't a lot of economic equivalence jobs left for traditionally blue collar roles in the U.S.. This did not result in enclaves or economic discrepancies based on education, until those jobs left the U.S. for places like China.

      So yeah, we have some growing problems that need to be addressed. They are mostly on economic lines -- and it doesn't matter what your race or national origin is, or actually even what your race is. Although there is a tendency through historical precedent, for the types of jobs which have gone away, to inordinately impact along racial lines, you see the same complaints on the basis of educational level in all communities, and the codeword for that is "gentrification", which translates to people with economic means displacing people without economic means from desirable to live locations.

      These problems are dwarfed by what is currently happening in Europe.

      What's currently happening in Europe is mass migration on an unprecedented scale.

      And that automatically results in the creation of large enclaves. Which then turn inward. And do not assimilate into the larger culture; in some cases, the "larger culture" is not even that much larger, any more, and the incoming flood represents a significant fraction of the population.

      This is going to spell large scale destab

  35. I've got lots of folks by rsilvergun · · Score: 3, Interesting

    here in America who believe in all of that. They're mostly white male Christians living in Texas and the American South.

    The "culture" your referring to is mostly a byproduct of America meddling in Middle Eastern politics to prevent the spread of socialism. Iran was a secular nation until we decided we didn't like their democratically elected gov't and helped eject them. There are pictures of girls in skirts from the 50s before we stuck our nose in. Iraq was, for all of Saddam's faults, going the same route and Modernizing.

    If you going to say their religion lets them do bad things that's true of Christianity in spades. Whatever horrible thing I might want to do to you today there's a line in the bible that lets me do it. Hell, you don't even need to be an Infidel. Oh, and I'll remind you that Christians are not, in fact, infidels. Atheists and pagans are.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  36. Re:This is why the immigration push by elrous0 · · Score: 1

    I used to be fairly liberal myself, but the SJW's have driven me out of the movement. As a white, heterosexual male, I no longer feel welcome. It's the same hard lesson that Bernie Sanders is learning every time he tries to have a rally anymore. Poor Bernie hasn't realized yet that you can never appease a SJW, no matter how much self-hatred you express at you own evil-white-male-heterosexualness.

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  37. The population decline is being made up for by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The decline of native Europeans is being more than made up for by the migration of middle easterners. Nothing to worry about here.

  38. Why do you think a certain ethnic group by p51d007 · · Score: 1

    is moving in droves there in the guise of "escaping" the middle east? Their BIRTH rates have exploded (no pun intended). It's easier to take over a geographic area, by overpopulating it with a group of outsiders. Then, come election time, they have the majority.

  39. Re:This is why the immigration push by gweihir · · Score: 2

    The real problem is that unless you want mine-fields and are prepared to gun down people en-mass, there is no effective way of stopping this. Just look at what these people are running from.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  40. Re:Anybody ask Japan about this? by AHuxley · · Score: 1

    Japan can do very hi tech production lines in Japan as needed.
    If price point is a consideration just open a factory in a nation like Laos, Indonesia, China, The Philippines, Cambodia with a supportive tax rate and low cost export ready infrastructure.
    If the EU was having factory staff problems, build production lines in low cost nations with skilled workers, good ports and low export zone taxes.
    No need to do what the EU did and totally fail with vast numbers of random people just wondering around for decades.
    Filling a nation with random people with no skills hoping a few might try for advanced factory work is not the best job creation idea.
    If a nation wants to really win long term, look after a nations own citizens with advanced education and learn to build factories in other low cost nations with good skilled workers if needed.
    The EU is now left with huge numbers of people with no skills.
    All Japan has to do to win is to fund and look after its education system to ensure it has the very best students every generation.

    --
    Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  41. Re:Racism by dfenstrate · · Score: 1

    Racist alarmism is much more fun.

    When did Islam become a race? Oh, I remember, when it became a way for the Gutmensch* to dodge any serious discussion about cultures.

    *New German word of the year:

    "Gutmensch" was selected because, in connection with the current refugee crisis in Germany, it defames "tolerance and helpfulness as naïve, dumb and worldly innocent, as having a helper syndrome or as moral imperialism," the jury president, linguist Nina Janich, told the press.

    --
    Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
  42. Just a BS excuse to allow more jihadists in by walterbyrd · · Score: 1

    The idea that under-population is some critical problem is ridiculous. I guess people will believe anything.

    1. Re:Just a BS excuse to allow more jihadists in by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 1

      It is economically, because all of our economic models rely on a growing population.
      So yeah, under-population works as long as you don't mind being poor, cold and hungry.

  43. Re:Racism by quenda · · Score: 1

    And now we have clear racist attitudes towards supposed "Muslims invaders" with higher birthrates somehow "extinguishing" local culture.

    I don't see how that is racist, any more than feeling sad about Tibet, or the destruction of American Indian or Australian Aboriginal culture.

    Let me get to some facts: 3.8% of the EU population is currently Muslim.

    And rising rapidly. 10% of babies in the UK are now muslim, and Mohammed is the most common boys name in England.
    The English are now a minority in London. This is the biggest change since the Normans invaded a thousand years ago.

    Yet as of 2012, Hispanics and Latinos make up about 17% of the total U.S. population.

    Yes, this is having a huge effect on the US. IMHO, the racial mix is the defining attribute that makes American politics different to Canadian.
    The large racial minorities have shaped America's conservative attitudes to crime, guns, welfare. (I'm not saying it is a rational response.)

    I suspect the US will end up a lot more like Brazil than it is now, i.e. with increasing inequity and corruption.

  44. Re:and how long before the next Hitler comes to st by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    So who else is going to put an end to Invasion USA (apologies to Chuck Norris)? As soon as a candidate steps up that says they're going to enforce immigration laws, stop the immigration train wreck, stop the bullshit foreign wars and meddling, stop the free shit parade, and bring justice against the bankers, they'll get nearly every sane person's vote.

    Except of course for the deluded twits who think it's "rayciss" to enforce immigration laws and knee-jerkedly brand that person "nazi" or "hitler", which sadly there seems to be a large horde of these days.

  45. Re:and how long before the next Hitler comes to st by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

    So you are saying there won't be a final solution?

    --
    She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
  46. Re:Let's not forget religion by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 1

    If "responsibility" leads to extinction or submission, I'll take the opposite.

    Well it doesn't so you don't have to worry. 'Responsibility' is very closely tied to 'Sustainability' as concepts.

  47. Re:This is why the immigration push by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    Not only that, I'm no true Scotsman either.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  48. Re:This is why the immigration push by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    And now imagine how much they had to piss me off, I'm not even a white male heterosexual.

    Quite seriously, SJWs manage to piss off the groups that they claim they represent, now that's something! I know quite a few "old school" feminists (you know, the kind that fought in the 70s for equality when there was REAL oppression of women) who are steaming with rage over the whole shit. They fought tooth and nail to be FINALLY considered no longer second class citizens who can walk their own way and are independent of the "help" of men, only to now see those wannabes act as if feminism means you have to be a professional victim who wants EXACTLY that: Being the poor little victim of male oppression who need handouts and freebies.

    Believe me that, they are NOT happy to see their efforts in a struggle for equality ruined.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  49. Re:This is why the immigration push by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    Also look where these people run to. Take a map. Find Syria. Now find Germany and Sweden (the main target countries for these people). Now ponder what's wrong with this picture.

    I don't know about you, but when I'm running from something, I stop when it's safe.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  50. The thought of Paris and Berlin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    turning into Arab shit holes : ( IMO many of the comments insinuating the net result will be a higher standard of living for real Europeans are quite naive. You guys dont owe these people anything, in fact, history would suggest you adopt a very very defensive stance.

  51. Re:Racism by LubosD · · Score: 1

    I really wouldn't mind Hispanic people the way I mind muslims. They tend not to blow themselves up. And I already speak Spanish.

    If you say that all European culture is American, then you know nothing. Culture is not what you see on the TV or on your phone!

  52. Re:This is why the immigration push by gweihir · · Score: 1

    Not when there is no way to make a living at that "safe" place. And once on the move, it is far easier to keep running. Also remember that the politicos need to stop them at the outer EU border. Stopping them at the German or Swedish border makes things even worse.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  53. Re:and how long before the next Hitler comes to st by Mike+Frett · · Score: 1

    And you actually think Trump is going to do that eh? I can't recall any President that even remotely did what they said they will do while Campaigning. Well, except for giving kickbacks to their rich buddies.

    Use your Brain, a real leader can't be Democrat OR Republican.

  54. Why do you hate America so much? by denzacar · · Score: 5, Informative

    the one that doesn't believe in killing and raping the infidels is better.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity.
    We weren't punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers.
    We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That's war. And this is war.

    the one that believes in not killing homo sexuals is better.
    http://www.rightwingwatch.org/...

    ...on Friday's Republican campaign event, showing videos of Ted Cruz, Bobby Jindal and Mike Huckabee engaging in question-and-answer sessions with extremist pastor Kevin Swanson, who then went on to say that he would smear cow dung over his body to protest a gay couple's wedding and urged the government to execute gays in the future if they don't repent.

    the one that believes woman are equal to men is better.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
    That last one is a longer read.
    But it includes such gems as "legitimate rape", sexual assaults in the military excused as "hormone level created by nature" and last but not least - rape as god's will.

    P.S. Dear, right-wing, moderators... we can play this game of you trying to ignore facts while calling pointing out such facts trolling until you run out of mod points or I run out of copy/paste.

    --
    Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
  55. Re:and how long before the next Hitler comes to st by Dunbal · · Score: 1

    The final solution happens when the last living thing dies on this planet.

    --
    Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
  56. Tell that to women/children being raped by walterbyrd · · Score: 1

    GERMAN POLICE COVERING UP RAPES SO AS ‘NOT TO LEGITIMIZE CRITICS OF MASS MIGRATION’
    http://politics.slashdot.org/story/16/01/14/2032213/more-people-in-europe-are-dying-than-are-being-born

    Please go tell all the people being killed, and raped, to just be patient.

    What makes you think radical Islam will not take over? If you knew the history of Islam, you would know what is going on.

  57. Re:Mind upload by Chrontius · · Score: 1

    It's not like BattleBots is ever going to stop being popular - we just had someone challenge a Japanese mecha-building firm to a goddamn duel on an aircraft carrier. I'm not sure which is more sci-fi - the thing the last guy said, or the New York Times.

  58. Re:Anybody ask Japan about this? by Chrontius · · Score: 1

    If it was a problem with women in particular, I suspect that we'd see homosexual relationships at two to three times the biological rate, as every bisexual person looking for a relationship went for one with less friction. This sounds a lot like something we can test with Science!

    H(null): We will see no increase in homosexual relationships close to the size of the bisexual demographic: People just don't want to deal with having a relationship due to, in spite of, or concurrent with shitty prospects, too much stress, and a corporate culture that's toxic to starting a family.

    H(1): Homosexual relationships will expand to everyone who isn't constitutionally opposed to faggotry. We will likely see a tripling of homosexual relationships compared to our control group, representing the entire homosexual and bisexual demographics fleeing a toxic heterosexuality.

    H(2): If we see some intermediate effect not trivially explained, we should investigate to see whether cultural condemnation of faggotry is intense enough to dissuade anyone who could have an emotionally fulfilling relationship with another of the same sex - cultural confounding effects or a mixture of motivations are likely results, but it is impossible to accurately predict which, precisely, at this point.

  59. Hmm by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    "Natural decrease is a major policy concern because it drains the demographic resilience from a region diminishing its economic viability and competitiveness."

    Maybe just me, but that reads as "BROWN SKINS AGAIN AT THE GATES OF VIENNA!!"

  60. Normal by nospam007 · · Score: 1

    Contraception is paid by universal healthcare, the day after pill is sold over the counter and here in Europe we don't defund planned parenthood and we don't have Christian terrorists attacking abortion clinics.

    Also our Teenagers are actually taught in school how children are made and how to prevent it.

    The wish to have kids is just hormonal imbalance, your genes wants you to take on a 21 year long unpaid job to replicate itself.
    No thank you, I'm good.

  61. Hitler or Putin? by gay358 · · Score: 1

    It could be next Hitler, but it could also be Putin. Even though invasion by Russia would be disaster and Russia is very corrupted country, with serious human right issues, social problems etc, the longer the Muslim mass movement continues, the larger and larger percentage of population will probably start see even invasion by Russia better option than European countries turning in Muslim countries. I cannot understand why Merkel and some other leading politicians are continuing this social experiment with open doors policy to mass movement, that will turn European countries into ruins -- and not just their own countries.

  62. Re:Anybody ask Japan about this? by myowntrueself · · Score: 1

    If it was a problem with women in particular, I suspect that we'd see homosexual relationships at two to three times the biological rate, as every bisexual person looking for a relationship went for one with less friction. This sounds a lot like something we can test with Science!

    H(null): We will see no increase in homosexual relationships close to the size of the bisexual demographic: People just don't want to deal with having a relationship due to, in spite of, or concurrent with shitty prospects, too much stress, and a corporate culture that's toxic to starting a family.

    H(1): Homosexual relationships will expand to everyone who isn't constitutionally opposed to faggotry. We will likely see a tripling of homosexual relationships compared to our control group, representing the entire homosexual and bisexual demographics fleeing a toxic heterosexuality.

    H(2): If we see some intermediate effect not trivially explained, we should investigate to see whether cultural condemnation of faggotry is intense enough to dissuade anyone who could have an emotionally fulfilling relationship with another of the same sex - cultural confounding effects or a mixture of motivations are likely results, but it is impossible to accurately predict which, precisely, at this point.

    True, I guess the easy access to porn, lack of stigma attached to use of dolls (eg extremely realistic sex dolls representing children) or other male sex toys could just be hiding a general lack of interest in sexual relationships with actual human beings of either gender...

    --
    In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
  63. Good reason to be born by Elixon · · Score: 1

    This article reads that we must procreate to preserve economic viability and competitiveness.

    "My dear, it is time to tell you the truth. The reason you were born is not because daddy loves mummy but because we want our nation to stay competitive and economically viable. Love, your economically stable parents & your government"

    --
    Well, I've got to get back to work. When I stop rowing, the slave ship just goes in circles.
  64. Re:and how long before the next Hitler comes to st by Anonymous+Cow+Ward · · Score: 1

    Mussolini is actually a much better comparison to Trump.

    --
    Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.
  65. This is news? by whitroth · · Score: 1

    The EU birthrate has been below replacement rate for at least 10 years, if not twice that.

    The usual suspects:
          1. Birth control
          2. The cost of raising children.

    The unmentioned one: overpopulation. (I mean, you want to raise too many kids, like those sickos the Duggars? Fine... then don't come crying to me about the cost of housing, the cost of food (all the local farms forced out by developers building overpriced crap), and that you can't find a parking space.

                        mark

  66. Re:and how long before the next Hitler comes to st by kheldan · · Score: 1

    Let's put it this way: I don't want to take any chances, so let's not elect Trump, ok?

    --
    Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
  67. Re:and how long before the next Hitler comes to st by pipingguy · · Score: 1

    "Of course there can always be someone worse than Hitler "

    Hey, I thought that was Bush!

  68. Meh. by DarthVain · · Score: 1

    Much of the developed world falls into that category. Most of these countries maintain or grow populations through immigration.

  69. Re:and how long before the next Hitler comes to st by rubycodez · · Score: 1

    history shows you are just whistling dixie, of course their will be another Hitler (dictator of conquest using genocide/scapegoat of minority). We've already had several Hitler types after WW II, too bad you missed them, at least two are operating right now

  70. Re:Racism by Britz · · Score: 1

    Oh please. My point was simply that there is tons of racism on Slashdot. Because of the whole denial thing.

    And your answer?

    "Muslims blow themselves up"

    Dude, wtf?

  71. Re:Racism by Britz · · Score: 1

    There is no such thing as race anyways. Going by your definition that racism has to be about race, racism doesn't exist.

    So you are denying the whole thing. No racism exists. That is really what you are saying?

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

    Apart from the points in this article, think about the most basic truth of racism: Racism is first and foremost about the racist, not about the target. If a racist has power over someone they are racist against at some point in time, the target may suffer. But that is a different aspect of racism. The racist has racist thoughts, a racist agenda, etc. etc. Not the Muslim or the black guys. They only experience racism when in contact with a racist. But the origin of racism is the person that is racist. Thus racism itself (not the effects) is not about the race, but about the racist.

  72. Re:Racism by Britz · · Score: 1

    Islamophobia and racism come from fear. Unfounded fear. A huge percentage of babies also comes from uneducated families, because educated women either have children later in life or none at all. What does that mean? Also most Europeans have very little kids. Racism and Islamophobia are a big problem for integration. Thus the fear creates the problem itself. Racism doesn't help. It hurts all sides.

  73. Re:Racism by Britz · · Score: 1

    > If you say that all European culture is American, then you know nothing. Culture is not what you see on the TV or on your phone!

    What is culture?

    And what do you spend your time doing.

    I bet most of the culture you are engaging is American. I would bet a beer it is above 70%. At least.

  74. Re:Racism by quenda · · Score: 1

    Unfounded fear.

    Your wishful thinking is unfounded, and could do with a history lesson.

  75. Sorry, still not buying new definition of 'RACIST! by dfenstrate · · Score: 1

    Your newly redefined cry of 'RACIST!!!!' depends on a mishmash of cultural and moral relativity that I don't subscribe to. Some cultures are better than others, despite the wishes of you and your huffpo buddy. You can tell this by how people vote with their feet. Hell, why don't you tell me a list of countries you'd like to live in, or could possibly tolerate. Then maybe we can discuss what kind of culture dominates in those countries.

    While you consider that, I'll give you a few quotes in this area (in retaliation for that huffpo article):

    At some point someone just has to tell these kids the truth: some civilizations are better than others. But that has nothing to do with you. You are not inexorably linked to your ancestors. You can appropriate all the good insights anywhere you find them. To deny yourself goodness, truth, and beauty wherever it is, you wind up diminishing your own dignity, treating yourself as if you were no more than your color or your genes.

    - Anonymous

    And this one from Thomas Sowell:

    These and other dramatic and heartening rises of whole peoples came from doing things that were often directly the opposite of what is being urged upon less fortunate groups in the United States today. Far from painting themselves into their own little cultural corner and celebrating their "identity," these peoples sought the knowledge and insights of other peoples more advanced than themselves in particular skills, technologies, or organizational experience. It took centuries for the English to absorb the cultural advances brought by such conquerors as the Romans and the Normans and by such immigrants as the Huguenots, Germans, Jews, and others who played a major role in developing the British economy. Their early dependence on outsiders was painfully demonstrated when the Romans pulled out of Britain in the fifth century, in order to go defend their threatened empire on the continent, and the British economy and political structure both collapsed. Yet ultimately--more than a thousand years later--the British rose to lead the world into the industrial revolution and controlled an empire containing one-fourth of the land area of the earth and one-fourth of the human race.

    --
    Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
  76. Re:Why do you hate America so much? by ArylAkamov · · Score: 1

    Curious, are there any christian terror groups actually doing anything like that right now?

  77. Re:Why do you hate America so much? by denzacar · · Score: 1

    You mean in USA?

    Meanwhile, while they can't exactly push through laws against being gay at home, though they still try, they shift their focus where they can create such laws.
    See... it's not just a local thing. God hates gays EVERYWHERE!

    As for bombing and killing indiscriminately and war... How many wars was it that US is fighting this week?
    After being left that as legacy from a guy who was convinced that god himself wanted him to be the president and punish the "evildoers".

    --
    Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
  78. Re:Why do you hate America so much? by ArylAkamov · · Score: 1

    That second link is pretty interesting, thanks. Seems like something people never really hear about.

    And about evil doers doing the evil that evil doers do:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

  79. Re:Why do you hate America so much? by denzacar · · Score: 1

    Rachel Maddow did cover that several times.
    It used to be available under a group header "Uganda be kidding me" on her show's NBC site, before NBC changed the format of the site... and other things.
    Now you have to search Youtube for all the videos.

    And pretty quickly, these guys start popping up.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    You know... guys who organize National Prayer Breakfast(s) and who think that Jesus was awesome - like Hitler, Mao, Lenin, Stalin, Pol Pot, Bin Laden...

    --
    Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens