In Memoriam: VGA (hackaday.com)

szczys writes: VGA is going away. It has been for a long time but the final nails in the coffin are being driven home this year. It was the first standard for video, and is by far the longest-lived port on the PC. The extra pins made computers monitor-aware; allowing data about the screen type and resolution to be queried whenever a display was connected. But the connector is big and looks antiquated. There's no place for it in today's thin, design minded devices. It is also a mechanism for analog signaling in our world that has embraced high-speed digital for ever increasing pixels and integration of more data passing through one connection. Most motherboards no longer have the connector, and Intel's new Skylake processors have removed native VGA functionality. Even online retailers have stopped including it as a filter option when choosing hardware.

Comments

It was the first standard for video?

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, WHAT THE FUCK???

CGA? EGA? MDA? Hercules? NTSC? PAL? SECAM?

"and is by far the longest-lived port on the PC."

Serial port?

Who the fuck wrote this piece of shit revisionist ignorant blurb?

Re: It was the first standard for video?

[red_dragon]

And now we know what to expect from the new overlords.

Re: It was the first standard for video?

[Mashiki]

Same as the old overlords? No clue about history, or that pissing in people's cornflakes is a bad idea.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[Ol Olsoc]

Um, WHAT THE FUCK???

CGA? EGA? MDA? Hercules? NTSC? PAL? SECAM?

"and is by far the longest-lived port on the PC."

Serial port?

Who the fuck wrote this piece of shit revisionist ignorant blurb?

One of those people who think that everything can be done on a smartphone

Re: It was the first standard for video?

[alvinrod]

I don't know if it's fair to blame the people who just took over the site for a long-standing editor posting a story that was written by another third party. You might as well blame Obama for this, because I'm sure it's somehow his fault as well.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[KermodeBear]

What about the port you stick the power cable into?

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[Anonymous Coward]

It was the first standard that most millenials ever had to deal with. That's the recognized standard for fact checking on the Internet.

Re: It was the first standard for video?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know if it's fair to blame the people who just took over the site for a long-standing editor posting a story that was written by another third party. You might as well blame Obama for this, because I'm sure it's somehow his fault as well.

Every story, save for a couple, since the announcement of the takeover has ostensibly been posted by timothy. Samzenpus and Soulskill have apparently been sent to pasture, and I suspect that this 'timothy' is only 'timothy' in name only. It's likely a shell account, run by who knows who, that the new editorial overlords are going to use while they transition to their new staff.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[Osgeld]

serial ports were around back when the power cable was still attached

hell serial ports predate computers

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[NormAtHome]

Rob Malda just had an aneurysm either that or he's laughing his ass off.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[BarbaraHudson]

What do you expect - it's from hackaday - you just know it's bullsh*t written "because we need to write something."

Add in Hercules port, parallel port.

Also

Most motherboards no longer have the connector,

I guess he hasn't bought a recent laptop - mine has both hdma and vga. And even this gamer laptop at tiger direct has vga out.

ASUS ROG G751JT-DB73 - Core i7 4720HQ / 2.6 GHz - Windows 8.1 64-bit - 16 GB RAM - 256 GB SSD + 1 TB HDD - DVD-Writer - 17.3" 1920 x 1080 ( Full HD ) - NVIDIA GeForce GTX 970M - 802.11ac - black

Connections & Expansion
Interfaces: Headphone/SPDIF combo jack ¦ Thunderbolt ¦ HDMI ¦ 4 x USB 3.0 ¦ LAN ¦ VGA ¦ Microphone input
Memory Card Reader: 2 in 1 ( SD Card, MultiMediaCard )

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[houstonbofh]

Um, WHAT THE FUCK???

CGA? EGA? MDA? Hercules? NTSC? PAL? SECAM?

"and is by far the longest-lived port on the PC."

Serial port?

Who the fuck wrote this piece of shit revisionist ignorant blurb?

Not to mention a total BS premise. They have been saying the serial port is dead for DECADES! And I can't tell you how often my USB floppy drive has been a life saver at a client with critical data on floppy and no floppy drives to read it!

And does the moron know that the DVI ports that are now on most motherboards HAVE FUCKING VGA BUILT IN?!?

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[__aaclcg7560]

One of those people who think that everything can be done on a smartphone.

I had a friend who gave me an expensive Asus wireless router because he made a change to the configuration from his iPad that locked out his iPad. He refused to reset the router to factory settings and use my laptop to configure the settings via a wired connection. It had to be done through the iPad only. No matter how I tried to explain what he wanted wasn't realistic, it had to be done the way he wanted it done. He want back to using the Comcast modem, which had an external button for turning on the wireless.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[Junta]

For those wondering, it seems that C13 (the power plug) was 1970. DB-9 dates to 1952, though RS232 dates to 1969 (still older than C13).

Of course I would say DB-9 has been far from ubiquitous for quite a few years. Most boards have a header for it (not much reason to not have that). Even in servers, they increasingly omit a physical connection (favoring instead using network to get serial port data). On network datacenter equipment, they generally use something like a mini-usb or smaller form factor, or even sleeve-tip-ring ports, breaking out to DB-9 because they don't want to spend the precious port real estate on something as large as a DB-9.

So C13 is not longer lived than DB-9, though one could argue it has had the 'longest life' compared to RS-232 over DB-9, if you accept that the past few years don't count for DB-9 so much (clearly still around, but usually only from an adapter or breakout)

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[Junta]

It's common to slap on a larger laptop, but the 'ultrabook' level thickness skips a lot of ports (on mine, it even skips an RJ-45 ethernet, though it still has an ethernet port and a passive breakout to provide an RJ-45 for it).

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[hackertourist]

It was the first decent standard for MS-DOS/Windows video. Everything before it was a pile of shit, where you needed a new standard every time a higher resolution became available. Remember separate modes for text and low-res graphics? Remember how painful those early PC monitors were to work on?

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[Anonymous Coward]

Who the fuck wrote this piece of shit revisionist ignorant blurb?

szczys wrote it. C'mon, get your act together. I know there's a bias against reading TFA, but this information is literally the first two words of the post, and precede the summary.

Re: It was the first standard for video?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, we can't blame them yet, but eventually they should get rid of Timothy. I mean, he is beyond useless and has been annoying /. users for quite a while...

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[BarbaraHudson]

I don't see the allure of an ultrabook. I've always used my laptops only as desktop replacements plugged into a second screen for dual monitor use (quiet counts for a lot when you notice just how much nicer the work environment becomes when the pc power supply and cpu fan whines are gone).

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[Anonymous Coward]

It was evolutionary rather than revolutionary. The EGA was its immediate predecessor and was pretty good, except for some reason the resolution didn't conform to the 4x3 aspect ratio which was standard at the time.

VGA came along with 640x480 res, which was decent. But within a couple years that was obsolete, so there came 800x600 (IBM later called that XGA) and then a succession of "Super VGA" "standards" (as in the joke, there are so many of them) all with different resolutions higher than 800x600, and some supporting wide aspect ratios.

BTW VGA also supported two low res, 256 color modes, mode 13h and Mode X, which became favorites of DOS gamers because they were well suited for smooth animation while not requiring exorbitant amounts of installed RAM.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[Gojira Shipi-Taro]

He's in the Taco Cave enjoying all the Taco Cash he got for selling this joint.

Laughing his ass off, I hope.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[Anonymous Coward]

'taint no such connector as a "DB-9." There's a DB-25, even a DB-37. There's also a DE-9 and a DE-15. But a DB-9 doesn't exist, despite what lots of people incorrectly call a DE-9.

Re: It was the first standard for video?

[Anonymous Coward]

So you don't see the point of an ultra book because you don't use your laptop as an actual mobile device. Surprising.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[Dunbal]

To be honest, VGA (nor EGA, CGA, XGA etc) was not a "standard". VESA was a standard.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[TWX]

Of course I would say DB-9 has been far from ubiquitous for quite a few years. Most boards have a header for it (not much reason to not have that). Even in servers, they increasingly omit a physical connection (favoring instead using network to get serial port data).

Last generation of desktop computers I've routinely worked with at work, Dell Optiplex 7010, has DB-9 serial, and it looks like the 4th Quarter 2015 Dell Optiplex 7040 still has a DB-9 serial port as well.

I had to do firmware updates on some Fluke network testers last week. Admittedly these were slightly older models, but the update gave them the ability to identify 1G advertisement from the switch, to do in-line PoE voltage monitoring, to identify appliance/voice VLAN, and to do identify CDP from the switch. Doing this required the use of a serial cable with good old pins 2, 3, and 5 for receive, transmit, and ground respectively. It was harder to get the serial-part of the process going than it should have been, trying to use a serial-less Windows 8.1 laptop with adapters was a challenge and I finally ended up getting out a WYSE 52 terminal and null-modem cable to see if the software on the PC was actually sending anything out through Microsoft's weird wrappers on top of the keyspan USB to serial adapter, then establishing that yes, the software was talking, try to figure out why the scanner wasn't acknowledging. Turns out that was problems with the socket for the 2.5mm phono jack on the scanner itself.

Anyway, as much as some of us might like for RS-232 serial to be dead it doesn't look like we can write it off entirely any time soon, given the sheer expense of the kinds of devices that we have to support that use it. It's a lot easier to give up VGA because monitors, by and large, are not expensive, and even when they are there will still be methods to get analog video to them either through add-in cards or through conversion devices.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[gmack]

That.. is the single most misguided reason I've ever heard for choosing a laptop over a desktop. My desktop PC was built with quiet components If I push the graphics really hard (games, not HD movies) I can hear the fan on that start up.

For my trouble, I get more RAM, a more powerful CPU, better graphics, and far more expansion ports and my laptop stays on a shelf unless I'm travelling or I need an on site computer for a contract and in both of those cases size really does matter..

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[Anonymous Coward]

Serial port?
 
Yes, yes, calm down, we all know the USB port is the oldest port on computers.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[TWX]

I carry a Thinkpad Yoga 12 for work, and a couple of coworkers have X1 Carbons. When we went shopping for a replacement for my wife's X301 we ended up buying a Thinkpad Yoga 12 for her. Her needs include traveling with the computer, and she was had to deal with a family health issue and was going to be away with no Internet service for several weeks, so the machine needed local storage for movies and TV shows and music. Basically we needed a computer that was reasonably rugged, was reasonably lightweight, and was most definitely set up for extended off-network usage. At the time we bought it that model had the best balance of features that we could get our hands on, and since I'd been slinging around one for the last six months, carrying it to and from work every day without being especially gentle it had already proven to be up to the task.

A coworker has one of the MacBook Pros that is an early post-optical-drive version. It seems to mostly suit him very well. Only complaint I'd have if I had it is the lack of integrated Ethernet, he has to use an adapter from one of the Thunderbolt(?) ports to make that happen. Granted, I have to with the Thinkpad Yoga as well, or use the docking station, so in the end it doesn't matter that much.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[fisted]

The connector is gone, but the need for something equivalent persists. Network, adapters etc are nice, but they are very complicated to use; complicated enough to require a device driver [stack], which implies a booted operating system.

Until the OS is booted, all those ports are dark, IOW, one cannot use them for debugging the boot process, or the (booting) loader and kernel. The IBM PC, as much as I despise it, makes using the serial port trivial, since the BIOS effectively has a device driver for it (although manually driving it isn't much of a big deal either).

It takes:
mov ah 1
mov al <char>
mov dx 0
int 14h

to vomit <char> out the serial port from 16-bit real mode (i.e. the mode the loader starts in)

So one way or another, a serial port (equivalent) will persist. It might get a little harder to access, though (e.g. some Android phones have their serial console going out the audio jack...), but it can't be done away with altogether.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[drinkypoo]

If you were extremely charitable you might describe it as the first standard for computer video output which could actually handle video, except even that would be wrong. The first such standard was RGB with separated syncs, then came sync-on-green RGB. VGA came from that and added the communications channel.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[Ol Olsoc]

I had a friend who gave me an expensive Asus wireless router because he made a change to the configuration from his iPad that locked out his iPad. He refused to reset the router to factory settings and use my laptop to configure the settings via a wired connection. It had to be done through the iPad only. No matter how I tried to explain what he wanted wasn't realistic, it had to be done the way he wanted it done. He want back to using the Comcast modem, which had an external button for turning on the wireless.

Aren't these folks bizarre? Oh well, your gain in the end.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[McGruber]

Um, WHAT THE FUCK???

CGA? EGA? MDA? Hercules? NTSC? PAL? SECAM?

When szczys said "video" szczys meant porn. VGA was the first standard that allowed users to watch downloaded porn that was as good as what they could watch on videotapes.

CGA, EGA, MDA and Hercules couldn't equal a videotape.... and PCs didn't come equipped with NTSC, PAL or SECAM.

Re: It was the first standard for video?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmm...interesting. Actually it seems that timothy has been the publisher of every article for almost 3 days.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[Waffle Iron]

serial ports were around back when the power cable was still attached

hell serial ports predate computers

9-pin serial ports were a nonstandard "optimization" introduced with the PC/AT, which was in the early 1980s. These ports have arguably have been more dead than the VGA connector for some time. A couple of motherboards I bought this year still happen to have VGA connectors, but no external 9-pin serial port.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[__aaclcg7560]

Aren't these folks bizarre? Oh well, your gain in the end.

My father was worse. I would show him how to properly maintain his computer and warned him to stay away from naughty bits on the Internet. He did no maintenance whatsoever and looked at naughty bits anyway. Whenever his computer slows down from the fragmented hard drive and infected operating system, he orders a new Dell box for $500. So every other year my file server got upgraded because he gave me his old computer. If he had followed my advice, his computer could have lasted for five years or longer before having to upgrade.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[smooth wombat]

Granted, I have to with the Thinkpad Yoga as well, or use the docking station, so in the end it doesn't matter that much.

Which is why Lenovo Yogas suck. Between their piss poor battery life and only 2 usb ports, one of which must be taken up by the docking station if you want to have a real machine to work with, I do my best to dissuade people from buying them when we do our hardware refreshes.

If you want to accomplish something, get an Ultrabook if you must. At least they don't force you to drag around a stupid docking station which also acts as the pass through for video and for your network connection.

Re: It was the first standard for video?

[LynnwoodRooster]

Maybe he's healthy enough that carrying a 4 pound laptop won't leave him winded halfway down the hall. Put down the Twinkies and Mountain Dew, and try the stairs once in a while...

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[hackertourist]

Unlike its predecessors, VGA was downwards compatible. You can still hook up a 640x480 monitor to today's graphics cards, and a modern monitor works on a first-generation 640x480-only graphics card.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[U2xhc2hkb3QgU3Vja3M]

Only DVI-A and DVI-I ports are compatible with VGA via an adapter. You'll never connect anything VGA to a DVI-D port.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[geoskd]

Serial port?

Serial ports haven't been included on PCs in more than a decade. Sure you can get them as a special item, but that will likely be true for VGA as well.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[Junta]

Well yes, but the DE-9 (as I was corrected) specifically is increasingly rare. RS-232, sure, but DE-9...

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[BarbaraHudson]

Desktops are no longer cost efficient now that laptops are so cheap. $400 gets you 8 gigs, quad core, and a screen, so you only need one screen to have a dual-monitor setup. And if you don't have at least a dual-monitor setup, you're doing it wrong. Of course, if you want an i7 with 16 gigs of ram, they're also available without paying the ultrabook premium pricing.

As for the laptop when traveling, I'm sure the extra weight of a non-ultrabook laptop won't tax your car.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[Osgeld]

but a lot of motherboards still have a header for a serial port, you just have to plug it in

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[BarbaraHudson]

and she was had to deal with a family health issue and was going to be away with no Internet service for several weeks, so the machine needed local storage for movies and TV shows and music.

Since this was only to be used to consume media w/o the internet, a cheap tablet, headphones, and a few memory cards would have done the job far cheaper. Also a lot cheaper if it got lost, stolen or "borrowed."

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[Anonymous Coward]

He's right, you know.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[Anonymous Coward]

Real people just have a system everywhere.

Two in the office, one in the kitchen, one on the living room TV, one on the patio, one in the bedroom, one built into the car (with in-dash monitor and a projector hidden in the fake-ass hood scoop) and hell there's even one on my fucking metal detector.

Who the fuck needs a laptop?

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[Xabraxas]

Anyway, as much as some of us might like for RS-232 serial to be dead it doesn't look like we can write it off entirely any time soon, given the sheer expense of the kinds of devices that we have to support that use it. It's a lot easier to give up VGA because monitors, by and large, are not expensive, and even when they are there will still be methods to get analog video to them either through add-in cards or through conversion devices.

The same thing can be said about RS-232. USB to serial connectors have existed for a very long time as well as add-in cards that support serial connections.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[gmack]

I could never downgrade to using a laptop screen for a dual monitor setup. I prefer to have the screens next to each other (dual 22.5") on a proper ergonomic stand since I spend many hours on working and staring downward will cause a massive neck cramp.

Also, only an american would assume I do most of my travelling by car.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[NormalVisual]

It was the first decent standard for MS-DOS/Windows video.

PGA was available for quite a while before VGA. It was expensive, but for the time it was quite nice.

Re: It was the first standard for video?

[whipslash]

Timothy is still here.

Re: It was the first standard for video?

[whipslash]

Give us some time my friend. It's been 72 hours. It's not easy to fix a site that's almost two decades old.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[mikael]

I don't remember a PC having a NTSC, PAL or SECAM port. It either had a DE-9 connector for EGA/CGA (easy to mix up with RS232 cables), or a DE-15 VGA connector. Even DisplayPort and DVI is being replaced with HDMI. There were some USB connectors you can get for smartphones that connect them up to HDMI.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[jedidiah]

> Serial ports haven't been included on PCs in more than a decade.

They most certainly have been included on PCs within the last decade. Fairly recent boards still have the port on the back and not that then the header for it on the motherboard.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[murdocj]

Why misguided? I use a laptop at work. I can work from the office, work from home, even work when I'm at the garage waiting for my car to be repaired, and I always have my environment with me. For me it's the only way to go.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[tepples]

DB is the shell and 9 is the number of pins. Therefore, a DB9 is a DB25 with most of the pins missing. There is no standardized DB9, but one wouldn't be unjustified in claiming that the de facto DB9 is DB25 that has only the pins used by a PC serial port (the ones that have counterparts on the DE9).

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[Waffle Iron]

If it needs a an obscure adapter to use it, that doesn't count.

There are all sorts of adapters out there: SATA to PATA, Big keyboard DIN to mini DIN, DVI to VGA, 9-pin serial to 25-pin serial. None of those actually resurrect a dead format.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[Powercntrl]

When szczys said "video" szczys meant porn. VGA was the first standard that allowed users to watch downloaded porn that was as good as what they could watch on videotapes.

CGA, EGA, MDA and Hercules couldn't equal a videotape.... and PCs didn't come equipped with NTSC, PAL or SECAM.

You couldn't actually watch VHS quality video on a PC until circa 1995. Even then, you needed a video card with a dedicated MPEG decoder, or at least a Pentium 90MHz (that's 0.09GHz for you younger millennials) CPU and a video card that supported video overlay acceleration (if you wanted to watch it full screen without it getting choppy). But your bigger problem would have been the lack of broadband access - at the time, even AOL was still charging by the hour, for dial-up.

VGA, as it existed when it superseded EGA - well, it was good for looking at pixelated 256 color still images. Magazines (images and words printed on processed dead trees, don't see them much these days) still had the advantage when it came to clarity of what you were looking at.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[Anne Thwacks]

For those who are too young to remember...

CGA = Crap Graphic Adaptor = no porn
EGA = Extra Graphic Adaptor = some porn
VGA = Very Graphic Adaptor = loads of porn

Re: It was the first standard for video?

[tepples]

How many ultrabooks are actually used "on the go" instead of quickly becoming just another status symbol because it's easier to just whip out your phone or tablet?

My phone is a flip phone because the monthly service is cheaper: $90 per year when a typical smartphone plan costs that for two months. I own a Galaxy Tab A, but its on-screen keyboard isn't quite suitable for the hobby coding and writing projects that I work on while riding the bus. Or is working on a hobby coding project itself "showing off"?

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Sure, if you want to leave laptops out of the equation.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[rhodium_mir]

so there came 800x600 (IBM later called that XGA) and then a succession of "Super VGA" "standards" (as in the joke, there are so many of them) all with different resolutions higher than 800x600, and some supporting wide aspect ratios.

You have that backwards. SVGA was 800x600. The XGA standards start at 1024x768 and go up from there.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[Anonymous Coward]

I know a few guys like that.

The only explanation I can come up with is they are so butthurt from spending so much money on an iPad that the salesman/hype-machine promised them could do *everything* that they absolutely must use it for everything or risk admitting to themselves that they are a sucker.

No one wants to be a sucker.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[thegarbz]

but one wouldn't be unjustified in claiming that the de facto DB9 is DB25 that has only the pins used by a PC serial port

Except that's not what the de facto use describes. DB denotes the shell size, commonly the one with 25 pins in it DB25. What people call "de facto DB9" is a DE shell size. Anyway you cut it the common usage is wrong.

At least it would be if the definition was regulated at all. Since it's not it's kind of hard to argue that a DB-9 isn't just another name for a DE-9 given how even manufacturers of connectors are using that nomenclature.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[thegarbz]

Desktops are no longer cost efficient now that laptops are so cheap. $400 gets you 8 gigs, quad core, and a screen, so you only need one screen to have a dual-monitor setup.

Depends on performance now doesn't it. $400 gets you 8 gigs (where by the way? $400 typically gets you 4gigs), quad core mobile variant that's slow at best and thermally throttles if you look at it funny at worst, and a tiny tiny screen with uneven backlight bleeding and if you're lucky crap viewing angles, 6-bit colour, and glossy enough to see the sad look on your face at the underwhelming performance when you realise that you spend a lot of money for something that was primarily designed to be small.

You don't need to go anywhere near an i7 with 16gigs to get performance anxiety.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[__aaclcg7560]

The only explanation I can come up with is they are so butthurt from spending so much money on an iPad that the salesman/hype-machine promised them could do *everything* that they absolutely must use it for everything or risk admitting to themselves that they are a sucker.

My friend has three or four iPads. So I don't think he has buyer's remorse.

Re: It was the first standard for video?

[Livius]

I don't know if it's fair to blame the people who just took over

Yes it is. That's what taking over is - it means responsibility.

Re: It was the first standard for video?

[joao.cordeiro]

Exacly! All pc boards have a serial pins, but most pcboxes dont have the header. But you cab buy it and it is ready to use

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[BarbaraHudson]

Not American, so you assume wrong :-)

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[SuricouRaven]

Audio jack. That thing is pre-1900. Invented for telephone switchboards.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[ChunderDownunder]

Didn't that die when every vendor switched over to USB-C? :)

Re: It was the first standard for video?

[BarbaraHudson]

How many brand new laptops are being sold using Skylake cpus? Almost none. So there are tons of modern new laptops that have vga-out. So yes, in that respect many modern laptops are like mine in that they have hdmi and vga ports.

Re: It was the first standard for video?

[BarbaraHudson]

If only there were something that could solve that problem. Oh, wait, there is. They're called wheelie bags and you can load a lot more crap in them than you can in one or two laptop bags. Extra cables, a small hub or switch, clipboard, notes, pens and pencils and white markers (how many times do you go to use a whiteboard at a site and the markers are dry?). Even your phone charger and laptop-to-phone cable. Medicines. And of course some snacks.

Re: It was the first standard for video?

[BarbaraHudson]

It's not always convenient to have a desktop or a desktop replacement, which is why laptops exist in the first place.

Laptops are desktop replacements.

Definition of: desktop replacement
desktop replacement

Generally refers to a laptop that has the speed, storage and usability of a desktop computer. It implies a large screen and tactile keyboard, although such external peripherals may be plugged into a portable computer of any size. See laptop.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[BarbaraHudson]

Bought mine on sale at the local pharmacy. 8 gigs, nice screen, quad core 1.88 - 2.0 ghz, etc. $401 and change (including the recycling fee but not tax).

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[TWX]

I suppose that I should add, this laptop, which normally goes hours and hours on a charge, ate battery so fast in the ten minutes it took to do a firmware update on the scanner that I had to grab the AC adapter. Went from claiming over an hour remaining to the 9% warning in about eight minutes.

The adapters exist, but they are by no means efficient.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[TWX]

It also has to be able to do work. We looked at cheap devices as well as expensive ones, and this expensive one won-out.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[TWX]

There's an extra connector for the dock on this machine, integrated in with the power connector. We also have no issues with battery life, it lasts just fine.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[radarskiy]

a) Typical laptop video chipsets will drive two displays. The laptop does not have to be one of them, you can have two externals with the laptop screen blank. You map be limited by the number of video ports on your laptop, but DisplayPort will daisychain since v1.2.

b) A USB3 dock with DisplayLink will drive additional screens. At work, I have 3 screens: 2 external and the laptop display. When I plug into my dock at home I only have 1 external screen.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[Waffle Iron]

They used to include them sometimes, but I haven't seen one of those adapters included with a MB in the past several years. I doubt many people bothered to install them even if they got them. I didn't.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[Osgeld]

its not obscure its a 9 pin to 9 pin

and DVI has analog VGA signals in it its not adapting shit

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[Waffle Iron]

It sure as hell is obscure. I would bet good money that 99% of US households do not have a stupid ribbon cable MB header to D-shell adapter on hand. For the vast majority of the population, if they want to plug an old-school serial peripheral into a modern computer, they're going to wait a few days for mail-order shipment before they get to use their device. (Or else get a USB-to-serial converter, which is much more mainstream and might be available locally.) Either way, the serial port is still dead.

And for your information, if you don't have a DVI-to-VGA physical adapter, you simply aren't going to be plugging your VGA monitor into a DVI-only video card. To actually use a port, you need BOTH electrical and physical compatibility. This isn't rocket science.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[Osgeld]

your a angry and argumentative little twat aren't you

fine you win the internet

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[Waffle Iron]

You're the one who first i brought an uncalled for expletive into this thread out of the blue. Yes, that was irritating.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[ncc74656]

You're not kidding. Consider this tripe from TFA:

"One of the first computers with built-in video output, the Apple II, simply threw a lot of CPU time at a character generator, a shift register, and a few other bits of supporting circuitry to write memory to a video output."

The Apple II wasted no CPU time on graphics. Memory access was interleaved between the CPU and the video hardware; the video hardware (a bunch of 74LSxx logic, eventually reduced to two chips in the IIe and then one chip in the IIGS) was entirely responsible for drawing the screen contents based on the contents of the frame buffers and some softswitches.

With that error right off the bat, I didn't bother continuing with the article. The author is the Howard Zinn of computer history, if this is an accurate indication of his output.

That this is coming from Hackaday is troubling. Aren't they usually better than this?

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[klui]

> If it needs a an obscure adapter to use it, that doesn't count.

The sheer number of PCs built makes it non-obscure.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[armanox]

Oh goodness. I still have a PCMCIA MPEG co-processor in my desktop drawer from my first laptop (a Satellite Pro 435CDS, 32MB RAM, Pentium I, etc. Dual booted Windows 98 and Red Hat 6.1. Good times - that thing probably could have taken a bullet for me).

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[Retron]

Quad core 1.8 to 2 GHz, eh? Sounds like an Atom, or a rebadged variant thereof (Celeron, Pentium).

It won't hold a candle to the higher-end mobile quad-core chips, such as an i7 or some of the latest mobile i5s.

Re: It was the first standard for video?

[arglebargle_xiv]

Every story, save for a couple, since the announcement of the takeover has ostensibly been posted by timothy.

Oh Ghod, I've just realised: "timothy" is actually Bennett Haselton.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[Zontar The Mindless]

Desktops are no longer cost efficient now that laptops are so cheap.

Only if your work doesn't stress the laptop to any significant degree.

A laptop is *not* a good fit for software builds lasting 45 minutes to an hour at a go. Trust me.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[AK Marc]

It's not an adapter. And it's included in every motherboard I've bought that supported it.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[Zontar The Mindless]

I just had one built for me last year. Serial port.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[Zontar The Mindless]

And no, I did not ask for one. It's (still) standard on MSI kit.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[hughbar]

One of those people who think that everything can be done on a smartphone

That's the 'future' of computing, according to manufacturers and politicians. For little people, hacking, open source projects (even though large corporations benefit) and general 'invention' is a bit dangerous. Better done in a government or corporate setting, smartphone lets the consumer consume 'monetised' media and play Candy Crush Saga. Iphones and MacBooks are for being cool but products of total design control. You don't want ports to plug stuff in, you just need to use what we decide you can use and make money from. Even the hack stuff is trending towards pretty blue and pink, 'hack on this, but not very much'.

Incidentally, I don't believe this is conspiracy, it's just a shared motive of profit maximisation. But it suits an agenda of increasingly passive population in thrall to their mobiles (Skynet is here, it's just that it is ridiculous and distractionary) and 'devices'.

Re: It was the first standard for video?

[hidflect]

I hope "Timothy" isn't some outsourced sweatshop.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[BarbaraHudson]

Nowadays, neither price nor brand means anything - there are bad batches from everyone. A $100 quad core windows tablet with 32 gig internal ram and an sd slot (max 128 gig) would have done fine. I was surprised at how well they work.

Re: It was the first standard for video?

[BarbaraHudson]

You probably only need that much hardware because you're using Java, instead of a real programming language like C. A desktop replacement laptop is normally operated in dual-screen mode, with a much bigger monitor plugged into it (26" in my case). I used to run dual 26" screens from a desktop, but this is quieter and has the advantage of a built-in UPS.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[BarbaraHudson]

It's not an atom, and on a price-performance scale, it beats out an i7 or i5. Also, celerons end pentiums were around long before atom, so they are not "rebadged atoms".

Those of us who did serious development and machines with what now seem like impossible constraints laugh at the pissing contests people engage in over their computers. Then again, we never need those "here let me fix that for you" bloated IDEs.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[BarbaraHudson]

Put in a second hard drive - most take them. Make sure they can stay cool, and they'll do the job. A computer is a computer and todays laptops beat the crap out of the machines we were using a decade ago - and this will always be true. Whatever is top-of-the-line today will be thought of as crap down the road. And yet it does the job. "Good enough" computing is here to stay.

Re: It was the first standard for video?

[BarbaraHudson]

Did you actually do a search? VGA is still big on new laptops (with all the room and weight they shaved off from dumping the optical drives, they can afford to leave it there).

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[ncc74656]

And if you don't have at least a dual-monitor setup, you're doing it wrong.

I have a dual-monitor setup at work (one at 1680x1050 and the other at 1440x900 or so, both somewhere near 20") and a single-monitor setup at home (28" 4K). I think the single 4K monitor is more useful than two lower-res monitors, and it takes up less space (as in it still fits on the smaller desk at home).

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[BarbaraHudson]

The idea behind separate monitors is to physically put the unimportant stuff all on one. This way, you're not constantly moving, exposing, and hiding content.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[Retron]

It's an Atom, just one that's been rebaged to a Celeron. The performance is absolutely terrible and even a cheap i3 would beat it hands-down! It's a shame Intel have diluted their product range like this as it leads to confusion (as you've demonstrated).

Dual-core Pentiums and Celerons (in the vein of those since the Wolfdale days) are still made, of course, and these days are merely cut-down i3s. The Atom-based Pentium and Celerons are a relatively new invention and the easy way to spot them is to see whether they're advertised as quad-core or not; quad-core Pentiums and Celerons are just beefier Atoms.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[TwentyCharsIsNotEnou]

Put in a second hard drive - most take them. Make sure they can stay cool, and they'll do the job.

How does this speed up big software builds (the point the parent was making) - especially if you already have an SSD?

A computer is a computer and todays laptops beat the crap out of the machines we were using a decade ago - and this will always be true.

So true. But today's desktops beat the crap out of today's laptops.

Whatever is top-of-the-line today will be thought of as crap down the road. And yet it does the job. "Good enough" computing is here to stay.

For many use cases. But you keep ignoring the use cases others have pointed out which will always benefit from having state of the art hardware.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[perryizgr8]

My ultrabook has RJ-45, VGA, DisplayPort (better than HDMI). Maybe you should buy better stuff.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[msauve]

"DB is the shell and 9 is the number of pins. Therefore, a DB9 is a DB25 with most of the pins missing."

Huh? No. It's still a DB-25. It's the number of contact positions, not the number of contacts actually installed in the shell.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[NJRoadfan]

IBM's CGA card came with NTSC composite output, which most clone cards faithfully included.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[silentcoder]

In a previous job (now some 9 years ago) I had several big-metal servers which could only have their early boot systems (like a BIOS but not) accessed over serial ports, and for repairs and maintenance a serial terminal was critical.
Everybody else used software terminal emulators with USB adapters but it was a constant nightmare, it would be months between uses and the next time one was needed, invariably something would get messed up between the drivers and the emulator.
So I hunted around and bought an old discarded hardware serial terminal for around R200 (at the time just over 30 dollars) from a pawnshop. It was a breeze, when one of the old clunkers needed serial port access, you just plug it in and turn it on and everything just worked.

Sometimes old tech is actually easier to use than new, especially for interfacing with other old tech. Many of those servers were over a decade old - hell there was two original DEC alphas there that were both over 30 years old by then - those were rocksolid though, I never had a problem with them except the one time the server-room's cooling failed, those CPUS are so not designed for a South African summer without climate control... fried one. Luckily I was able to get a replacement second-hand from an Iron Refinery which still used a number of alphas and kept an entire warehouse full of old ones they'd bought up in bulk just for spares.
Suffice it to say that HP service contracts for alphas are terrible, they will provide expertise but generally cannot provide parts.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[tepples]

If all but 9 are NC (not connected) in a widely used application, are they really "contact positions"?

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[msauve]

Yes, they are.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[Dunbal]

An interface is not a standard. I remember INT 13h. Remember every single graphics card being different and having to write different routines for each one? That's not a standard.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[Tighe_L]

Obviously, some millennial child that has no clue.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[Shortguy881]

My friend has three or four iPads. So I don't think he has buyer's remorse.

But he should...

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[tlhIngan]

That.. is the single most misguided reason I've ever heard for choosing a laptop over a desktop. My desktop PC was built with quiet components If I push the graphics really hard (games, not HD movies) I can hear the fan on that start up.

Yeah, you probably spent a while choosing those parts too. Because any random assortment of desktop parts isn't likely to generate a quiet build.

It's a lot of work choosing the right combination of power supply, CPU cooler, GPU, etc., to end up with a computer that's quiet. Especially when you're presented with the wide assortment of parts available online at say, Amazon or other retailer.

I built a quiet PC, but it took me 3-4 weeks of choosing components to ensure a quiet system. I had to abandon some parts because they didn't work (fanless PSUs have very specific orientation requirements, for example, something you need to make sure your case gives you), and swap out a bunch of fans with even quieter ones.

And in the end, I still had parts I ordered wrongly, to which was a PITA to return so they sit on the shelf waiting for me to come up with some use.

Quiet? Yes. Not cheap, though. I needed it as a desktop, so I couldn't buy a laptop to do the job.

And in the end, some things still didn't work (it won't work with a modern GPU - it just beeps about video error...).

Re: It was the first standard for video?

[BarbaraHudson]

You don't seem to understand - even with constant repetition, your opinion does not magically materialise (sic) into facts.

And I would say "right back at you." You haven't provided any facts, whereas I've noted that many new laptops still have VGA - even those with expensive i7 chips. Just search tiger direct - you'll see them there.

Re: It was the first standard for video?

[BarbaraHudson]

Your source sucks. The estimate was from 2011 (click the "Further info" tab), when estimated market share was predicted to be 1.8%. (predicted, because 2011 obviously wasn't finished). No wonder you post AC.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[BarbaraHudson]

And nobody gives a damn. It's performance that counts, and if the performance is great, who cares? Same as if the chip were from AMD.

I'm not going to pay several times the price for an i7 when I can get everything I want done for less than half the price and a lot less heat.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[houstonbofh]

Only DVI-A and DVI-I ports are compatible with VGA via an adapter. You'll never connect anything VGA to a DVI-D port.

I have yet to see a motherboard with a DVI-D port that did not have a VGA port next to it.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[BarbaraHudson]

Include and source files on one drive, temp files on the other. (you'll only be reading the include files, so more cache hits and less movement). Same with reading files off the temp drive, since the temp drive cache won't be polluted with include files.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[BarbaraHudson]

Also, most people do not need state of the art. Want != need. Let them pay the first adopter price, same as gamers. I'll be able to buy the same stuff a few years later for 10 - 20 cents on the dollar, and the games will be very heavily discounted (if I were into games, that is).

Re: It was the first standard for video?

[mattventura]

What's the advantage of having an overly thin laptop? I can see the advantage of weight reduction or less power usage. But what exactly does a slightly less thick laptop do, other than make it less structurally sound and force more stuff to be non-upgradable?

Re: It was the first standard for video?

[whipslash]

Thanks!

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[dfsmith]

XGA = not as good as XXXGA.

Re:It was the first standard for video?

[netwiz]

I have several demos that suggest otherwise.

Eventually... But not yet

[oic0]

It certainly has stopped being so popular but it isn't likely tl fade completely away for a long time. I still see it on monitors and TVs. These thin devices thst have no port usually have a display port that easily converts to vga with a cheap dongle.

Re:Eventually... But not yet

[Anonymous Coward]

I still see it on monitors and TVs.

And projectors! How else can I connect to those projectors if not VGA? And their life-span is probably decades. I think the new projectors actually have alternatives to VGA optional, but usually this is HDMI, which I predict is going away sooner than VGA. (HDMI being replaced by DP)

Re:Eventually... But not yet

[smallfries]

Mine does? I have a 4k screen plugged in on displayport so that it can do 60fps. It definitely does audio as well...

Re:Eventually... But not yet

[Gojira Shipi-Taro]

What you claim is untrue. https://superuser.com/question...

In particujlar, this bit:

From displayport.org/faq:

Q. Does DisplayPort also support audio?

A. Yes, DisplayPort supports multi-channel audio and many advanced audio features. DisplayPort to HDMI adapters also include the ability to support HDMI audio.

I wound up on this page however because my DisplayPort audio wasn't working. After searching many sites, I learned that the video driver (vs. audio driver) is responsible for the DisplayPort audio; while updating my video drivers (Intel HD Graphics 4600) I specifically noticed in the log it installed an Intel audio driver as well. After this driver update I'm able to see the TV/audio device listed under Control Panel->Sound (LG TV/Intel Display Audio), as well as under Device Manager as Intel Display Audio (in addition to my regular audio device).

As others have mentioned, it's up to the manufacturer to support/implement audio over DisplayPort. Other research has indicated that the DisplayPort to HDMI adapter must also support audio. Odds are if you're using a laptop with a common video device like Intel or AMD, they implemented audio over the DisplayPort and you just need the drivers for it.

Bottom Line: Update Video Drivers.

Re:Eventually... But not yet

[MightyYar]

Maybe you are thinking of return audio? DisplayPort has audio. One trick DP offers is a single cable hooking up two monitors - handy from a laptop.

But mainly for any given generation, DP has better throughput - more resolution/refresh rate.

Re:Eventually... But not yet

[klapaucjusz]

I don't understand why people want DisplayPort

HDMI is a synchronous interface — video and audio data use up fixed parts of a frame's time. One might almost say that's it's just a digital mapping of an analog television signal.

DisplayPort is a packetised interface — video, audio, and whatever else you might want to carry over it can be sent at any time. Because of that, it's a little more expensive to implement (you need more hardware in the device), but it's immensely more flexible: you could carry multiple low-resolution video streams over a single port, or 3D video, or multiple audio streams, or even something else (IP, SMS, whatever) with no hardware changes.

Re: Eventually... But not yet

[Anonymous Coward]

Those resolutions technically not VGA. The original VGA standard only went to 720x400 in monochrome text mode, 640x480 graphics with 16 colors - although some nonstandard signal timings could push it a bit higher.

Once SVGA and MultiSync became available, lots of "unofficial" super-high resolution modes popped up, but about the best you can do with a standard VGA cable is 2560x1600.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VGA_connector#Cable_quality

Re:Eventually... But not yet

[AthanasiusKircher]

And projectors! How else can I connect to those projectors if not VGA? And their life-span is probably decades. I think the new projectors actually have alternatives to VGA optional, but usually this is HDMI,

THIS. The person who wrote TFA must not do any presentations anywhere ever. Yes, new projectors often have other inputs, but that's often irrelevant in a conference venue or a classroom or whatever, where often there's ONE cable that's presented to you to hook in your laptop -- and it's a VGA cable (often with an audio headphone jack plug, if you need it).

That's the same as it was most places decades ago. If your laptop today doesn't have a VGA port, you get a dongle. Everybody who needs to plug into a projector has a standard VGA one. Switching to another standard would require a major initiative, since this is NOT a place where you can just adopt a different standard on the fly.

Probably tens of thousands of people show up an unfamiliar place every day and expect to be able to plug a laptop into a projector to give a presentation. For better or for worse, everybody knows that you bring a connector for VGA, and if you change that, you need to be darn sure all of your presenters know that (and, even if they do, lots of people who give talks can be old and won't understand if they show up with a laptop that doesn't connect to something else, so you'll be scrambling at the last minute to move stuff to another computer or whatever).

I don't see this standard switching anytime soon -- it tends to be used in high-profile, time-sensitive situations where people expect to be able to plug a computer in and have it work instantly. Unless a venue is going to provide a dongle that fits every possible port on the planet (and most don't), it will be really hard to switch.

The only thing that will eventually allow the switch won't be a new port standard, but rather wireless broadcast of video directly to the projector. It's still quite rare, but it's feasible and the only way to get out of the VGA rut. I doubt HDMI/DP/whatever is EVER going to overcome VGA for such applications -- the next "standard" won't have cables at all.

Re:Eventually... But not yet

[Anonymous Coward]

What?

Before 1080p for some unbelivable reason became the standard, most high end monitors including CRT had higher resolution than that.

Re:Eventually... But not yet

[present_arms]

Maybe he was thinking of DVI not DP as DVI seems to be sans audio :) on this ultrabook there is no VGA but I do have HDMI and mini DP :D Alie

Re:Eventually... But not yet

[ericloewe]

DisplayPort does audio.

DisplayPort is easily converted into VGA or HDMI with reasonably cheap converters. HDMI 1.3 or so/DVI are even doable with passive adapters if the source supports them.

DisplayPort can be carried by the USB Type C infrastructure.

Literally, the only consumer-facing advantage of HDMI is that it's a lot more popular.

Re:Eventually... But not yet

[ericloewe]

Essentially arbitrary numbers of monitors, even, limited only by the bandwidth of the interface. DP1.2 can do up to four 1920x1200 displays or two 2560x1600 or a single 4k, all at 60Hz.

Re:Eventually... But not yet

[RogueyWon]

As others have pointed out, DisplayPort does do audio.

There are two main reasons to favour DisplayPort over HDMI on PC, though both of them are situational. The first is that it supports multiple monitors from a single port/cable.

The second, perhaps more significant, is that the first generation of "affordable" 4k monitors (ie. sub $1,000) generally don't have HDMI 2.0 support. This means that if you want 60Hz output at 4k, you need to use a DisplayPort cable.

Re:Eventually... But not yet

[fnj]

DisplayPort ... doesn't do audio

Wrong.

Re:Eventually... But not yet

[Ryanrule]

Maybe replace those pos old 640x800 projectors that all have the lightbulb warning going off?

Re:Eventually... But not yet

[godrik]

How else can I connect to those projectors if not VGA?

Are you serious? I have not seen a projector without DVI in the last 10 years.
All the projectors that I use have a bazillion connectors. You can connect VGA, RCA, DVI, HDMI and other stuff I am not even sure what are. You can even connect from the network and broadcast images with virtually no lost of quality.

Re:Eventually... But not yet

[TheLongshot]

This is mostly a legacy reason, because many places have VGA cables hardwired to wherever the projector is. It is more a statement with how long it has been a standard rather than if it is truly necessary anymore. Eventually, there will be movement away from that.

As for wireless being the next standard, I think we are a ways from having that. Hell, most of our networks are still wired, and probably will continue to be so for the foreseeable future.

Re:Eventually... But not yet

[LinuxIsGarbage]

The projector may have the ports, but are cables run to the podium? Even if the projector is replaced, if the new projector has a VGA port, and most computers (especially business grade) have VGA port, what's to gain by replacing the cable?

At work they replaced the projectors in one of the conference rooms. They have a VGA cable run to the desktop, and then an HDMI cable with mini-display port adapter if you wish to connect your laptop, because none of the laptops ship with an HDMI port. Some older ones shipped with a display port, but there's no adapter provided.

I've seen several times where something must be wrong with the HDMI setup, and people end up unplugging VGA from the desktop, and plugging it into their laptop.

The quality starts to get crappy at 1080p, and with crappy cables, but VGA seems to still be a surprisingly good-enough "just works" solution.

At home my Haswell i5 has onboard 4600 graphics, and I get three ports: HDMI, DVI, and VGA. If I want three monitors I use VGA on the third. I also use VGA when I want to hook it up to the TV in the other room because the VGA extension cord was so cheap.

Re:Eventually... But not yet

[serviscope_minor]

You know you can get 2560x1920 over a VGA port right?

Anyway, plenty of high res projectors still use VGA, because they're (a) on the ceiling (b) wired in and (c) VGA supports very very long cables and none of the other standards do except display port, but it's not all that common compared to HDMI. HDMI is shocking.

Re: Eventually... But not yet

[Anonymous Coward]

I've bumped up the speed on my GPUs RAMDAC and run 4K 60FPS over 10 foot VGA on my 4K TV. Works just fine.

Re:Eventually... But not yet

[imboboage0]

I think what the GP was getting at was not that it isn't on the market, but more likely that you're going to be strictly presented with VGA if it isn't YOUR projector.

source: four years in university with hundreds of rooms with projectors, that aren't going to be updated strictly because "something new, must have."

Re:Eventually... But not yet

[captjc]

The problem is that while most projectors and conference room TVs have VGA, the vast majority of laptops have dropped or are dropping the VGA port in favor smaller options. The trend for the last few years is all about making slimmer machines with as few ports as required. HDMI has been the preferred output for the last five years or so but now Apple is backing Thunderbolt, others are now backing USB C, HDMI Mini, and variants of Displayport.

Most people can get by with adapters, but everything but the oldest legacy equipment has at minimum HDMI compatibility. The conference rooms in my office were all updated about 5-7 years ago and all have HDMI. Even my college presentation halls and classrooms had HDMI (when few laptops had HDMI) and I graduated 6 over years ago.

Re:Eventually... But not yet

[MightyYar]

Some of us are not lucky enough to have arbitrary numbers of monitors :)

Re: Eventually... But not yet

[joao.cordeiro]

I hope you know that 1080p is vertical. It is 1920x1080 and i have never seen a crt with that kind of resolution

Re:Eventually... But not yet

[radarskiy]

"the vast majority of laptops have dropped or are dropping the VGA port in favor smaller options."

Where I work, it was only in the last year when some people started to be given laptops without a VGA port on the chassis, and those are only the toy-sized ones. They don't have any ports in common with any other machines, so they still need a dongle even if they don't use VGA.

Our projector may have 3 or 4 different digital input options, and you have to site there flipping through the different dongles. Even then you'll probably still get an non-native resolution and the refresh rate is of and the control panel doesn't let you correct it. The VGA input ALWAYS WORKS, what ever the resolution of the projector or display.

Instead of figuring out the digital wired inputs, we are moving to wireless connections.

Re:Eventually... But not yet

[drinkypoo]

I've successfully used a 50 foot Monoprice HDMI cable at 1080p. Even very good VGA cables degrade signal noticeably anywhere over about 20 feet. I'd expect to need a range extender to get VGA to a ceiling in a large room.

Re:Eventually... But not yet

[mikael]

There was a battle between CRT and LCD screen makers. CRT manufacturers first tried making their screens that little bit more flatter, then they tried adding concave filters to try and make the screen that bit more flatter. Then they tried reducing the space of the case, so that the tube stuck out at the back rather than a big box. Then they gave up.

Re: Eventually... But not yet

[Dr. Spork]

Either you're young or haven't paid attention. For twelve years (1996-2008) my computer had been running a Sony GDM 500PS with 1200 vertical pixels, at 85Hz. And yeah, through a VGA cable. In that time I went through many generations of computer upgrades, but If that beast of a monitor hadn't been sent to the recyclers, I'm sure it would still look beautiful today. Thinking about all the amazing things I've seen in that monitor makes me nostalgic. It was my companion for a huge chunk of my life. The the last computer for which it served as a display was more that 100 times more powerful than the first one.

Re:Eventually... But not yet

[Mirar]

Are you sure DisplayPort isn't another Betamax?

Re:Eventually... But not yet

[bemymonkey]

I've just bought a Thinkpad W550s (Broadwell) instead of the upcoming T560 or P50s (Sky Lake) simply because it still has VGA. On the Sky Lake models, the VGA port is being replaced with HDMI. *shudder*

Re:Eventually... But not yet

[bemymonkey]

Many new projectors have multiple HDMI and DisplayPort connectors. However, they also have VGA. And guess which connection is picked for the cable that gets run to the lectern? VGA... always freakin VGA.

I've been seeing a rise in wireless HDMI solutions, to be fair, but they're very clunky - adds about 10 minutes of setup time to the start of every presentation I've seen...

Re:Eventually... But not yet

[bemymonkey]

Have you been living under a rock? DisplayPort does audio.

Re:Eventually... But not yet

[serviscope_minor]

I'm quite amazed you've managed to get 50 foot! I would imagine you're somewhat lucky and not every combination of computer/projector would manage that even with that cable. With respect to VGA, the big difference is that VGA runs over coax and HDMI runs over STP. Coax is more expensive, but manufactured to a much, much higher spec. STP is cheapass but hard to make well. Generally, whatever coax VGA is running over is massively overspecced to carry VGA signals, whereas the STP that HDMI runs over is barely good enough.

Ironically one of the practical things limiting VGA cable length isn't the video link, it's the silly i2c bus used for monitor information (including resolution) that no one bothers to specify properly.

Re:Eventually... But not yet

[Blaskowicz]

Graphics cards already have to act as audio devices for that same feature over HDMI, so audio over Displayport doesn't take much in terms of hardware features. We should expect virtually every device with a Displayport output to support sound output.

Re:Eventually... But not yet

[Blaskowicz]

60GHz wifi is a credible tech to use in that situation I believe, though it's virtually absent from the market yet.

You don't want to use it for everything, but it does same room, point-to-point networking that should be enough for your 720p or 1080p at 60Hz.

Re:Eventually... But not yet

[smallfries]

Is it known as a rhetorical device?

Re:Eventually... But not yet

[mjwx]

I still see it on monitors and TVs.

And projectors! How else can I connect to those projectors if not VGA? And their life-span is probably decades. I think the new projectors actually have alternatives to VGA optional, but usually this is HDMI, which I predict is going away sooner than VGA. (HDMI being replaced by DP)

HDMI is going to be around for a long time as it's become the defacto standard for TV's supplanting RCA (the red, yellow and white plugs). TV's these days are still coming with RCA ports as well even though most devices are HDMI so they'll be the main port on TV's for quite some time. I dont think display port is going to gain any traction (it's been trying for years and nothing) simply because most devices support HDMI, it'll pretty much become like DVI, used mostly by computers to connect to high res monitors and playing second fiddle to VGA (HDMI in display port's case).

Also can we stop using DP as an acronym for display port as it also stands for "divided portions" and "double penetration".

Re: Eventually... But not yet

[toddestan]

Since it's an analog standard, there technically isn't any limit. Though my guess is that the quality past 2048x1536 won't be too impressive.

i don't want thin, design minded devices

[Jazoray]

I want well ventilated, repairable devices. At least the VGA plug isn't as flimsy as some modern connectors.

Re:i don't want thin, design minded devices

[Junta]

The female may be durable, but I've seen my fair share of bent pins on the male end.

Now you could say the traditional retention screws are more secure, but I really haven't had an issue with connector security for video. For one some have a much easier retention clip. And for another I'd rather the connection come apart than put stress on the system if something severe were to happen.

I agree with sentiment about serviceability and cooling, but the VGA plug doesn't help that.

Re:i don't want thin, design minded devices

[Ol Olsoc]

The female may be durable, but I've seen my fair share of bent pins on the male end.

That's what she said!

Re:i don't want thin, design minded devices

[houstonbofh]

I want well ventilated, repairable devices. At least the VGA plug isn't as flimsy as some modern connectors.

But soldered on memory that you can not upgrade and non-replaceable batteries are the future!

Re:i don't want thin, design minded devices

[BarbaraHudson]

Sure, but they're durable enough that when you plug it in and notice that there's no red on the screen, you can just bend the pin back with a knife, fork, or even a spoon. Unless all you have a plastic, because TERR'ISTS!

Re:i don't want thin, design minded devices

[Junta]

I will also say that that has worked for me most of the time, though some manufacturers use more brittle material or something, because I have also seen broken pins.

Either way, I haven't had a durability issue with HDMI/DP, that take a cue from card edge connectors and have a relatively beefy support for the contacts.

Re:i don't want thin, design minded devices

[Ol Olsoc]

Go die in a fire.

Yeah, she said that too.

not first standard

[Anonymous Coward]

"It was the first standard for video" - not quite
Perhaps NTSC monochrome RS-170 on a coax connector might be the first standard for video.
And even in the IBM PC world, monochrome and CGA were earlier.
Of course, perhaps the author of this article wasn't alive back then, and hasn't yet learned to "check your sources before publishing"

HDMI=mostly disadvantages

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure the world must move on some day, but I'd like to point out that at least for me HDMI has only ever brought disadvantages. Apart from severe problems with dealing with several audio channels or routing audio to external analog speakers, it also had and still has the charming property of turning the whole display black for 1-2 seconds from time to time. Not to speak of countless problems with false colors and red-tinted display on my Philips TV.

Frankly speaking, after years of using it I have come to the conclusion that HDMI is just shit in comparison to analog VGA, no matter how much seemingly more clear the display may be. I believe it was mainly forced on everyone for introducing DRM crap and to sell expensive cables and VGA would do well enough. Digital is not always the best.

Re:HDMI=mostly disadvantages

[houstonbofh]

I believe it was mainly forced on everyone for introducing DRM crap and to sell expensive cables and VGA would do well enough. Digital is not always the best.

This! And it is the reason they are trying to kill VGA.

Re:HDMI=mostly disadvantages

[BarbaraHudson]

Apart from severe problems with dealing with several audio channels or routing audio to external analog speakers, it also had and still has the charming property of turning the whole display black for 1-2 seconds from time to time. Not to speak of countless problems with false colors and red-tinted display on my Philips TV.

I think I found the source of your problem ... :-)

Re:HDMI=mostly disadvantages

[ColdWetDog]

HDMI sucks:

HDMI is a horrid format; it was badly thought out and badly designed, and the failures of its design are so apparent that they could have been addressed and resolved with very little fuss. Why they weren't, exactly, is really anyone's guess, but the key has to be that the standard was not intended to provide a benefit to the consumer, but to such content providers as movie studios and the like. It would have been in the consumer's best interests to develop a standard that was robust and reliable over distance, that could be switched, amplified, and distributed economically, and that connects securely to devices; but the consumer's interests were, sadly, not really a priority for the developers of the HDMI standard. ... HDMI has presented a few problems. Unlike analog component video, the signal is not robust over distance because it was designed to run balanced when it should have been run unbalanced (SDI, the commercial digital video standard, can be run hundreds of feet over a single coax without any performance issues); the HDMI cable is a complicated rat's-nest arrangement involving nineteen conductors; switches, repeaters and distribution amplifiers for use with HDMI cable, by virtue of this complicated scheme, are made unnecessarily complicated and troublesome; and the HDMI cable plug is prone to falling out of the jack with the slightest tug. On the plus side, in the great majority of simple installations,

Re:HDMI=mostly disadvantages

[Balthisar]

I love their candor, and as a result I own a lot of Blue Jeans' cables. They're good cables, but I regret it now. They run from a 4x4 matrix in my basement to every room in the house, and work flawlessly, but now it's cheaper just to add an Apple TV or Amazon Fire Stick to every TV rather than run HDMI from a central HTPC.

Re:HDMI=mostly disadvantages

[kamapuaa]

So their reasons boil down to:
1) You can't have a cable hundreds of feet long without some kind of signal booster.
2) It comes out when you tug on it.

Jesus Christ I can imagine some video nerds are really upset that they can't send their DVD output to the guy across the street without a $20 booster device, but for normal people these are complete non issues.

Re:HDMI=mostly disadvantages

[Zontar The Mindless]

Thanks for the interesting and informative Sunday morning read.

Re:HDMI=mostly disadvantages

[Dadoo]

I have to wonder if they really know what they're talking about, considering that, on their "HDMI to DVI cables" page, they say "the DVI standard does not support embedded audio, so whenever you're interconnecting DVI and HDMI equipment, you'll need to make sure that you've provided a separate path for the flow of the audio," yet that works perfectly fine, on a PC that I have connected to my television. Maybe the official standard doesn't support it, but enough manufacturers have apparently agreed on a "standard" for embedded audio-over-DVI that it's no longer a problem.

Re:HDMI=mostly disadvantages

[perryizgr8]

Fuck HDMI, I've moved directly to DP after VGA.

Re:HDMI=mostly disadvantages

[dywolf]

was all fired up to make a HTPC.

put everything together.
hooked up the TV.
Text (font) rendering looked like shit, even though graphics and movies were fine.
Hell, even the subtitle text of movies (unless burned into the image) were awful.
Jagged, misaligned color patterning (could see the RGB layers not lined up).

And that was before it started giving me crap about not having all the DRM chain properly configured, and refusing to play my blu-rays.

Solution: replaced the HDMI hookup with an old VGA cable had handy, and never looked back.
Turned out whichever chipmaker supplied that MSI mobo with its HDMI circuitry, has a history of such problems.
3 HTPC's later, still haven't bothered to try HDMI again; just not worth it.

Re:HDMI=mostly disadvantages

[wtarreau]

Not to mention the time it takes to "negociate" the link probably when you plug it and leaves you with the feeling that nothing works. I don't count the number of times I've seen people press every button on the laptop to see if it would change anything on the black display.

BTW at home I'm still running on the VGA connector at 1600x1200 on an excellent, very clear display. The secret is to use those 13W3 connector cables from Sun immediately connected after a converter plugged into the DB15. No echo, no color issues, runs fine at 90Hz (250 MHz). They contain 3 independently shielded coax cables for the colors. Yes that's the same number of pixels as full HD, at 90Hz. Unless I'm mistaken, we're not far from the original HDMI limit ?

Video Games Adapter

[MrKaos]

When it first came out I remember thinking of it's acronym that way, instead of Video Graphics Array.

Re:Video Games Adapter

[freeze128]

Tons of people get that wrong, too.

MDA - Monochrome Display Adapter
CGA - Color Graphics Adapter
EGA - Enhanced Graphics Adapter
VGA - Video Graphics ARRAY

I think the people who named it just wanted to screw people up.

Still going strong on servers

[Anonymous Coward]

The DE-15 VGA connector is still king on servers. Servers are still one place where HDMI or displayport have yet to make much of an appearance.

monitors

[fluffernutter]

I feel sorry for a world that must get rid of electronics because they use a port that looks old. I have three VGA monitors that work perfectly fine, and I hope to not have the throw them in the trash before they stop working perfectly fine.

Re:monitors

[jeffb (2.718)]

I still have at least two composite-input monochrome monitors that work perfectly fine, or did when I last tried them -- probably twenty years or so ago. I intend one day to haul out the old TRS-80 Model I and see if it still works. If not, I stand a really good chance of successfully repairing it myself, unlike most electronics released in the last couple of decades. (Of course, it's more likely to work than more recent equipment, if only because it predates the biggest capacitor-quality catastrophes.)

But I acknowledge that this represents a hoarding disorder, not a virtue.

Sometimes equipment outlives the standards it implements. How would you prefer to fix this? Would you rather your new phone be large enough to engage in a standard acoustic coupler? Because I still have one or two of those that probably "work perfectly fine"...

Re:monitors

[fluffernutter]

I agree, phones shouldn't be the size of bricks for the sake of ports. However, I don't see the need to get a laptop from an inch thick to 1/4-inch thick either. That comes from the pursuit of the new shiny toy that looks cool, not from a functional reason.

Re:monitors

[Gojira Shipi-Taro]

I would tend to call "Weighs a fraction of what a 1" thick laptop would and is much easier to carry around when traveling" a functional reason.

Source: I learned the hard way that carrying around a 17" gaming laptop that weight in at 23 lbs with power supply was not functionally sustainable when travelling to conferences.

Re:monitors

[fluffernutter]

I will never get that. How are you functionally being prevented from carrying a full sized laptop? I regularly carry 2-3 full sized laptops when traveling, no one has ever told me I cannot get on the plane with them. Again, having a bag that weighs 5 pounds versus a bad that weighs 15 pounds is for your convenience.

Re:monitors

[fluffernutter]

Also, I'm not even saying you shouldn't be able to have that laptop. If you want to have a laptop with a display port or hdmi only then fine. I'm saying it's sad that the whole market tends to move that way, even when there are plenty of people happy with full sized laptops.

Re:monitors

[houstonbofh]

However, I don't see the need to get a laptop from an inch thick to 1/4-inch thick either. That comes from the pursuit of the new shiny toy that looks cool, not from a functional reason.

Actually, small is good for some people. Essentially, all they need is a Windows tablet with a real keyboard, and they do not want to lug around a lot of weight.

Re:monitors

[Junta]

Note that they offer mDP to VGA adapters. If you really want to be compatible with those monitors (or if you are frequently expected to hook up to random projection setups, and I've seen some conference rooms that were *constructed* in 2015 only provide VGA, strangely enough.

Re:monitors

[fluffernutter]

Yes and I swear at Apple every time I go to use my Macbook on a monitor and I can't find my adapter. When I bought the macbook, it didn't even occur to me that there would be anything different then VGA.. because VGA was still working for me everywhere else. All the other systems I purchased at the same time or later came with a VGA port, and I really wasn't even looking for a VGA port on them. I know I'm fighting a losing battle here, because we live in a world where consumers want what they want, and industry changes to the whim of consumers and old electronics get thrown out and the world is becoming a giant garbage heap and that is the way it is. All I'm saying is that it would be nice if industry moved a little slower for the sake of the environment.

Re:monitors

[Gojira Shipi-Taro]

Convenience is functionality. Lugging a 20 (or whatever) lb laptop together with a bunch of other luggage through a crowded airport, or half a mile down a city street from train station to hotel is noticable over time. Certainly you CAN do, but when you can get the same computing power in a lighter package, and travelling is part of your job, why wouldn't you?

Now if I was just driving to the office and walking 60 feet or so at each end, then I could see favoring a heavy laptop, but not just so I could have a VGA port on it. That's what adapters are for.

Re:monitors

[Gojira Shipi-Taro]

Understood, but the last time I bought a full sized laptop was at least 6 years ago, for the reasons listed. That laptop now lives as the brain of a MAME cabinet I built, where I never have to lug it around again.

The beauty of Displayport, over the HDMI/VGA only capabilities of the full sized laptop I had, is that for about $5 I can get an adapter for the DP port that will let me connect any of those cable types. So I'm not losing any options (provided the OS manufacturer supports the port properly). I'm just shedding weight.

My daily driver for work IS a full sized laptop. I don't lug it around any more than I absolutely have to.

Re:monitors

[Gojira Shipi-Taro]

FWIW I don't disagree with your last point there at all, but in an industry that discards engineers as readily as it does hardware, I don't see that particular consideration (the environment) entering into anything beyond what will make the news and sell more units.

Re:monitors

[fluffernutter]

Convenience is definitely not the same thing as functionality. I think that's a big problem with people right there. At one time if something did the job then people liked it. Not they need it to be the right color, the right weight, the right size... Functional means a thing can do the job or not. The weight of something just makes it better at doing the job for you, because you don't like carrying heavier things.

Re:monitors

[swb]

Maybe the whole market moves that way because demand moved that way?

I've owned a couple of iPads and when the iPad 3 became intolerably slow, I decided to get an ultrabook as a replacement. The iPad was really handy to take on day trip or even multi-day trips, mostly because its size and weight made it handy.

Modern ultrabooks now can get down to the iPad weight while having a better screen, keyboard and overall computing experience. I have 3 USB ports, mini-DP and HDMI -- if what I want to do can't be done natively, there's an adapter, and if that doesn't cut I should be using a desktop anyway.

Re:monitors

[fluffernutter]

Wow.. Such incredible first world problems. an iPad is too heavy.

Re:monitors

[Gojira Shipi-Taro]

Better at doing the job IS functionality. Something that can be readily carried into more situations is more usable than something that cannot. When travelling it's more than the weight of one piece of kit, it's the entire group of things.

Another aspect I failed to mention. I'm permanently disabled. It's not "I don't like carrying heavy things" it's "I'm severely restricted in my manner of travel, and cutting the total weight of my luggage allows me to get about without assistance".

Re:monitors

[fluffernutter]

Well of course you will have custom needs as a person who is disabled. I cannot speak from that perspective. As I have been saying all along, I can understand if there is a physical reason why you cannot carry the extra 12 pounds, and you have identified a reason. From the perspective of 99% of people, they can carry a 15 pound laptop as well as a 2 pound laptop, and their hyper-sensitivity to 'extraneous weight' is a weak reason at best.

Re:monitors

[tadas]

From the perspective of 99% of people, they can carry a 15 pound laptop as well as a 2 pound laptop, and their hyper-sensitivity to 'extraneous weight' is a weak reason at best.

Enjoy your Kaypro II....

Re:monitors

[Mr Foobar]

I intend one day to haul out the old TRS-80 Model I and see if it still works. If not, I stand a really good chance of successfully repairing it myself, unlike most electronics released in the last couple of decades. (Of course, it's more likely to work than more recent equipment, if only because it predates the biggest capacitor-quality catastrophes.)

Yes, please do check for dry caps on that old mo-bo before powering it on! Even with the old cap-quality being much better 20+ years ago, it can still be a problem. And little is more disheartening that frying an antique mo-bo that probably would have worked fine with a few new caps on it. I say this as a proud owner of an ancient Kaypro 10 who's had to replace a few of its old caps to keep it humming. Gawd, the thrill of 9" green screen CP/M goodness!

Re:monitors

[fluffernutter]

Actually thinkpad T series laptops are what is popular around here. Cheap, durable, and they last for ten years.

Re:monitors

[swb]

Raed much? I said traditional laptops are too heavy relative to an iPad.

By ditching legacy ports like VGA, ultrabooks are actually competitive with tablets in size and weight and (IMHO) with tablets. If the ultrabook style of laptop didn't exist, I would have bought another iPad for those times when I wanted portability more than functionality.

You can add damn near anything via USB3 and my Asus has 3 plus mini-DP and HDMI. In an ideal world, I might lose the full size HDMI and upgrade the mini-DP to a full-size DP since I could always convert DP to HDMI and DP supports hubs, so I could do multi-monitor off one DP.

Some people want a fuller-sized laptop with more of whatever it is they want, but they do get clunky to travel with.

Re:monitors

[swb]

I'm not sure what the challenges of the third world have to do with a technical discussion of the portability of computers, but apparently that's your version of "nyah-nyah-nyah-nyah I can't hear you."

Re: monitors

[Blaskowicz]

I know a guy who uses the VGA port daily on his laptop : it is connected to a decent 1680x1050 LCD monitor.
That's all there is to it. No added value would be gained doing otherwise, in fact for most people needing to buy a $20 or $30 adapter that you can only find by ordering it on the net is a pain in the ass.

Re:monitors

[Blaskowicz]

Someone needs to make an ultrabook with enough thickness for VGA and RJ45 ; everything else can remain small and lightweight.

Well, traditional laptops have become something like that :) they all often seem to use a 15W Intel CPU (ending in "U") which allows cheaper cooling, longer battery life/smaller battery.
So there are "crap" traditional laptops that only weigh 2 kg or 2.1 kg.

Re:monitors

[swb]

Native VGA is pointless if you can convert DP or HDMI to VGA with a dongle. I do have gripes about the proliferation of Mini-DP as it seems more fragile than full size DP and full size HDMI fits on an ultrabook fine.

I'd never call native ethernet pointless, but it's kind of debatable if you have USB3. I've been using USB3 gigabit dongles on a surface book pro for a couple of years and haven't really felt like I've been missing much besides the slight hassle of having to use a dongle.

That being said, it sure doesn't look like my Asus would need more than a 1-2 mm of thickness to accommodate one. One idea might be some kind of pop-up or pop out RJ45 jack that could be collapsed back into the case. Way back in the PCMCIA days I remember both modems and ethernet adapters that had like little rectangular tabs that popped out that would accept a plug vertically.

Any such scheme would, of course, be prone to breaking and other reliability problems, but I've found that not uncommon in laptops with built-in RJ45s. I've personally owned two laptops that have had their RJ45 jacks go bad and I think both required mainboard replacement. I know for a fact that was required on a 2 year old Dell Latitude 14" laptop at a client location.

So overall, the USB3 dongle option doesn't seem to be that huge of a sacrifice. It's got more than enough speed for whatever portable use you might need and the USB-A type jack is probably better engineered for frequent insert/remove cycles than the RJ45 is, possibly even in terms of internal attachment and reinforcement, which I think was some of the problem with my other laptop jack failures.

The most an onboard RJ45 would really give you is just sheer convenience and maybe superior LAN chipset support, but if your use matters that much then maybe you do need a big laptop or even a desktop.

Re:monitors

[Blaskowicz]

I agree that all of that isn't much of a big deal. It's not like we're stuck with USB 1 and a useless built-in modem, sure.
If one doesn't like the idea of ethernet on USB 3 for "psychological" reasons (or real heavy duty) there has already been the Apple Thunderbolt NIC dongle. That's as much "real" hardware as onboard or PCIe hardware and we possibly might see affordable thin laptops with thunderbolt in the future.

Cost is an issue, that is many people don't have financial security to spend $30 on a dongle, on a whim. That is okay, the market does allow to have a $500 laptop with RJ45, VGA and HDMI. Conversely we might have $500 thin laptops with SSD or flash, USB type C, USB A and other "mini ports" or lack of them.

TIMMAY!!!!!!

[OzPeter]

Who the fuck wrote this piece of shit revisionist ignorant blurb?

And his Hackaday shrill

Re:TIMMAY!!!!!!

[BarbaraHudson]

Definitely a hackaday shill account. I got bored after looking through his first 45 submissions - it's all hackaday, all the time.

Re:TIMMAY!!!!!!

[lhowaf]

I don't read hackaday but, from this brief exposure, I can tell they're asshats.
1. They think cheap, reliable, widely-supported hardware is going away because all computer users are "design conscious."
2. They use white text on a black background.

Also, when my CHIP arrives, it'll have a VGA adapter.

Re: TIMMAY!!!!!!

[hackwrench]

Why do you like black on white? It can be like looking into a light bulb sometimes.

Re: TIMMAY!!!!!!

[lhowaf]

Because white-on-black imprints on my eyes and if I look away - or even just change the angle-of-view - the effect is nauseating. As far as I can tell, the only advantage of light-on-dark is that it looks cool to 12 year old gamer-boyz.

Re: TIMMAY!!!!!!

[Mikkeles]

I agree; that's why I use black on grey. However, since one tends to focus on the letters, their brightness can have an effect greater than the background (modulo fount, size, and special effects).

Note to new Slashdot management

[PopeRatzo]

You think we can get some better snacks in the commenter lounge vending machine? I know there's going to be belt-tightening, but Bit-O-Honey and yogurt granola bars aren't going to cut it.

Re:Note to new Slashdot management

[jones_supa]

You can say goodbye to all cool Japanese snacks, as we cannot print their names properly.

Re:Note to new Slashdot management

[Zontar The Mindless]

I'm still stuck with US-style Chinese food whenever I eat here, because real Chinese cooks won't lower themselves to read pinyin.

Re:DVI

[U2xhc2hkb3QgU3Vja3M]

Not small enough for the Raspberry Pi Zero, which uses a mini-HDMI port.

Re:EGA?

[U2xhc2hkb3QgU3Vja3M]

Hercules?

Looks Antiquated

[Anonymous Coward]

Yea, VGA needs to FOAD because it looks antiquated.

Come to think of it, you're looking rather antiquated. What to do about you?

Slashdot, it looks totally antiquated too. I can;t wait for the new owner to implement a beta interface design that better monetizes community synergies. Make sure you model it after flat UI design so no one can see or find anything. It'll look so sexy!

RIP DVI...

[__aaclcg7560]

I was looking at new monitors recently. Seems like DVI is going away than VGA. Many monitors have VGA, HDMI and occasionally DisplayPort connectors. The only two connectors I use in my home network is VGA for servers and HDMI for everything else.

Re:RIP DVI...

[ericloewe]

DVI suffers from being bulky and slow.

Single-Link DVI only does 1920x1200. Dual-Link is a very large cable and only does 2560x1600.

In comparison, HDMI does 4k. DisplayPort does 4k or 4x 1920x1200 (DP1.3 even does 2x 4k @60Hz). Both of them use much thinner cables and both support audio. HDMI does some consumer electronics integration supposedly, but compatibility is hit and miss.

DisplayPort has every reason to completely eliminate DVI. It's faster, works with USB Type-C, supports MST (for all sorts of cool things like several monitors from one interface) and is easily converted to HDMI, DVI or VGA.

Re:RIP DVI...

[Osgeld]

you dont need DVI, dvi is compatible with HDMI, you might have to buy a 3$ cable but its no big deal

8 channel audio + gbps on aux lane. Short cable th

[raymorris]

The Displayport specification optional audio up to 8 channels, plus gigabits available on the auxiliary for whatever else a manufacturer wants to support.

The main advantage of HDMI is longer cables. Displayport is currently speced at three meters, while HDMI is longer (10 meters?). Of course with either standard you can use a longer cable and it may work with your specific devices and that specific cable, but it's not guaranteed beyond the specified lengths.

I was thinking about VGA the other day

[Tuor]

It's still almost everywhere. At work we still have VGA monitors and docks. The monitor also has a digital connector of some kind, but never more than two other flavors. My TVs have VGA.

You know what's great about VGA sticking around? Older equipment that was often expensive and built like a tank still works. Projectors, CRTs, and KVMs. I've seen retrocomputer enthusiasts build VGA adapters for all kinds of old systems. It's nice to have something that you can rely on when you're traveling; if you have a VGA dongle you know you can work.

I hope VGA has a couple more decades in it, and with the slow adoption of 4K TVs, it just might.

CRTs with built in VGA cables

[Dusthead Jr.]

I never really understood why it was so common to have monitors with built in cables. It didn't make any sense. Hard disks didn't have them. Printers didn't have them. Where VGA cables that much more expensive or harder to make than say parallel or SCSI cables?

Re:CRTs with built in VGA cables

[__aaclcg7560]

Printers didn't have them.

The dot matrix printer and monochrome monitor for my Commodore 64 had built-in power cables. The only removable power cable I had back then was for the 5.25" external floppy drive. Not sure if built-in power cables were a common feature for home microcomputer peripherals in the 1980's. I was the only kid in my neighborhood with a complete setup, but the girls still thought I came from a poor family because I didn't have an Apple ][.

Re:DVI

[beelsebob]

Mini HDMI is larger than USB-C.

Re:DVI

[houstonbofh]

No, they replaced that with Mini DisplayPort, HDMI, Thunderbolt and USB-C. All of which are very small.

Not on anything I own... Other then the tablet which I do not plan on hooking up to a large screen any time soon. (ever)

I'll stick with VGA and SDI as long as possible

[blind biker]

Why? Because FUCK HDMI, that's why. I want my video port to send the video signal to my monitor without hand-shaking, asking for permissions and assuming I'm a pirate and kitten-murderer. HDMI takes so many rights and adds so many potential problems, that I find it hard to accept its presence in any of my devices. I have a ThinkPad with HDMI, but sure as hell am not going to use it.

Re:I'll stick with VGA and SDI as long as possible

[Ryanrule]

lol u stupid.

Re:I'll stick with VGA and SDI as long as possible

[k6mfw]

I want my video port to send the video signal to my monitor without hand-shaking, asking for permissions and assuming I'm a pirate and kitten-murderer.

I notice ***all*** broadcasters and serious videographers use SDI because it is uncompressed unencrypted HD video that includes audio all in a single coax with a locking BNC connector. None of this DRM baggage, and those big boys on a video shoot need to connect cameras to switchers and recorders need them to promptly feed the video instead of spending time on WTF this ain't displaying (but you probably already know that). I'm surveying camera equipment, and these days it is all HD, and to feed signals to multiple displays. Talking with someone said keep it all baseband until maybe the monitor if it doesn't have SDI.

I also notice that all SDI gear has loop out which is nice when installing switchers, recorders, or whatever in the food chain but I can continue the signal on to another destination. And like VGA, there are boxes of one input to four outputs (there's always more than one that wants that same video feed). So when I look into different modes, I clearly saw HDMI problematic and so not waste time surveying equipment with that mode. I also learned DVI is the same as HDMI but no audio, but I guess it still has DRM baggage as well. I hear of DisplayPort, I don't see it around that much. I read someplace DisplayPort is going nowhere as the "standard" for monitors because it is royalty free and companies don't like that as they can't do their control freakery like they do with HDMI. I imagine SDI is immune to all that as it remains in the world of professional video (who are also the content creators).

Anyway during equipment survey and selection, I have cameras with HD-SDI (I call it simply SDI, why would anyone take an old SD camera and feed SDI?). Then route to data inserters (all SDI), to HDD recorders. I then ask for SDI to VGA converters, the vendors give me this weird look of "why do you go through all this expense and squalsh it to VGA?" Our rooms have several monitors that are all VGA, we have lots of computers that do VGA, that's just how it has evolved over time. I'm sure not going to mix and match different monitors as many times same monitor may either view a PC output or a camera output.

Yep, all those converter boxes from BlackMagic to convert the SDI at the monitor (actually it looks pretty good and these things have SDI loop out for auxiliary feeds if needed). Looking to take resolution to the next level, I tried using SDI to DVI converter box but monitor displays nothing. It's gotta be that DRM handshake nonsense. VGA forever!

Re:I'll stick with VGA and SDI as long as possible

[k6mfw]

I'll take 720p over NTSC, 4k is nice but not really required. And can fan out multiple SDI like multiple VGA. There's always one more person who wants the feed!

Re:"Longest lived port"? How about the DB9 COM por

[Junta]

So if you want to call it for VGA based on it not being ubiquitous, then VGA: 1987~2015(ish)

For DB9 for use with standard serial, I'd say: 1969~2005(ish). Serial is alive and well, but few things directly provide a DB-9 port. So it 'died' first, though it lived longer.

Not going anywhere in data centers

[Sycraft-fu]

I have bought some Dell R430 and R730 servers, which are latest generation (Haswell based Xeons, DDR4 RAM) and guess what their one and only video output format is? That's right, a VGA port. No DVI, no DP, just VGA. No surprise either: Go have a look at high end network'd KVMs. They are all VGA. It works, so it is staying around in that space (same deal as serial for that matter).

It is certainly a standard on the decline, digital transmission makes more sense particularly since our displays are digital these days, but dead? Not hardly. I'm sure it'll be around many years from now, just in more niche areas.

Re: Hey, relax...

[Anonymous Coward]

He probably is MIKE SZCZYS, one of the Hackaday Editors. His name is on the slashdot alias so it doesn't look he is trying to hide that fact.
If his story was accepted, then its because people meta-moderated it that way. I don't see nothing wrong with it.

I do find the story a bit forced though...

Disclaimer: I'm a regular HaD reader.

Re:8 channel audio + gbps on aux lane. Short cable

[guruevi]

Even HDMI is not guaranteed at 10m, there is actually no length requirement for HDMI. To maintain the minimum spec for HDMI over 15m, you need very high quality cabling or fiber. DisplayPort is by spec 15m (50ft). Additionally DisplayPort runs over both Thunderbolt and USB-C without any conversions.

Re: I'll stick with VGA and SDI as long as possibl

[Anonymous Coward]

Your concern seems to be with HDCP, not HDMI; the latter is just DVI with an extended table of resolutions, hence why passive cables work. Your ThinkPad is not encoding HDCP over the HDMI connector.

I don't know why people like the ghosting that occurs when going through a DAC and ADC to use VGA on a digital flat panel. Trying to sync on the analog timing signals is a mess. I personally can see the artifacts and it hurts my eyes.

Anyone know if Netcraft confirmed it yet?

[rsilvergun]

Until then I have my doubts. Also most of the projectors at my company still work and still have VGA only. Until those $2000 behemoths start dying off VGA aint going anywhere.

Re:Anyone know if Netcraft confirmed it yet?

[Zontar The Mindless]

I'd post AC, too, if I had a 15-digit UID.

Re: Hey, relax...

[BarbaraHudson]

Or he's using other accounts (and other hackaday editors) to upvote in the firehose? It's crap, and as you can see from the comments, it's almost statistically guaranteed that the majority of regular slashdot readers would downvote this to the 7th level of hell or further.

PS/2 port

[FrozenSentry]

It was introduced at the exact same time as VGA and the vast majority of new motherboards still have that port. Not only that, but the PS/2 port will likely outlast the VGA port due to all of the high end keyboards out there that support it and depend on the PS/2 port for n-key rollover support. Also, keyboards aren't like displays where new ports are needed to support ever-increasing data rates. As long as people are using keyboards for input, the PS/2 port will likely remain since there is no need to replace it.

Commander Adama

[goombah99]

Is going to be using analog till the cylons come home

Still common for projectors

[a whoabot]

Projectors at music venues and clubs still regularly run VGA. Even if the projector has hdmi dp or whatever it'll often be only the VGA that has a long cable available for the distance required in many of these places.

Then how about a real connector locking mechanism

[Fishbone]

... for modern connectors?

All HDMI and DisplayPort connectors have a cheap tension-grip connector (at best). It's not like I'm moving my PC around all the time, but hell, if I bump my tower, any one of my HDMI/DisplayPort monitors comes slightly loose and constantly try to reestablish handshake.

Tension-based connectors are garbage. Sure, they disconnect easily, but I don't always WANT them to disconnect easily. The old screw/standoff connection was rock solid.

longest-lived port on the PC

[denisbergeron]

Pré-VGA pc had rs232 ports, post-VGA pc have rs232 ports.
The only thing real in this article is the fact that VGA is deaf!

Re:longest-lived port on the PC

[Anonymous Coward]

The only thing real in this article is the fact that VGA is deaf!

Damn right it is. I tried talking to to and it doesn't hear me. Should I get it to a doctor?

Re:Why are there so many articles linked to Hackad

[rjstanford]

Hackaday editor Mike Szczys, apparently, which makes a strange twisted kind of sense.

Re:Then how about a real connector locking mechani

[k6mfw]

Good point about locking connectors. I would say non-locking connector of S-video is what killed that mode (even though it was only 25% better than composite video). And old school composite video (renamed as CVS or some other silly acronym) continue to live on because solid BNC locking connector. But for consumer gear the RCA connector that has reasonable snugness.

Hopefully just the interface, not the video mode

[marciot]

Otherwise our boot loaders are going to get a hell of a lot more bloated with video drivers.

BTW, I wonder if text mode is ever going to go away...

HDCP killed the OUYA

[tepples]

Your ThinkPad is not encoding HDCP over the HDMI connector.

You'd be surprised. A lot of video game consoles encode everything with HDCP. PlayStation 3 does, for instance, and PS3-compatible video recorders had to use the component output instead. And I think one of the many reasons why the OUYA console fizzled was that its only video output was an HDMI output with HDCP that a game's developer could not turn off. This made it impossible for a developer to record a promotional video for YouTube, let alone for a player to record something like a Let's Play, without the cheesy step of pointing a camcorder at a TV.

No DRM on PS/2 port, unlike on HDMI

[tepples]

The PS/2 port also doesn't have to deal with Digital Restrictions Management. There are plenty of adapters that translate between the PS/2 keyboard and mouse protocol and the USB Human Interface Device protocol, allowing use of legacy keyboards and mice with legacy-free PCs. Likewise, HDMI without HDCP could be translated into VGA and analog audio signals by an external DAC. But it's illegal (via anti-circumvention law) to produce such an adapter compatible with HDCP, and it may be illegal (via license terms of HDMI essential patents) to produce an HDMI sink that does not handle HDCP.

First 480p connector

[tepples]

Let me try expressing it more honestly: VGA's DE15 was the first widely adopted connector for enhanced-definition (480p) color video. It was around long before it was common to send progressive video as YPbPr over three RCA cables.

Re:First 480p connector

[Osgeld]

aside from SCART

Re:First 480p connector

[tepples]

SCART is traditionally associated with 576i (interlaced, 15.6 kHz by 50 Hz, and Europe-only), not 480p (progressive and 31.5 kHz by 60 Hz).

Oh noes. the radiations!

[EvilSS]

My favorite quote from TFA: "Unless the monitor you’re viewing this on weights more than 20 pounds and is shooting x-rays into your eyes, there’s no reason for your monitor to use a VGA connector."

I thought this bullshit line of thought died out in the 60's or 70's.

Re:Oh noes. the radiations!

[toddestan]

I have to agree. VGA should have been on its way out 10 years ago, replaced with (at the time) DVI-I ports. If you needed VGA you could use a cheap adapter. I guess there's a lot of inertia out there, as I've avoided using analog VGA for anything in the past 10 years or so unless I don't have any other choice.

Plus work supplies, plus groceries, use on bus

[tepples]

From the perspective of 99% of people, they can carry a 15 pound laptop as well as a 2 pound laptop

But can they carry a 15 pound laptop plus other supplies needed for work as easily as they can carry a 2 pound laptop plus other supplies needed for work? Can they carry a 15 pound laptop plus groceries as easily as they can carry a 2 pound laptop plus groceries? And can they use a 15 pound laptop while riding public transit as easily as they can use a 2 pound laptop while riding public transit?

Re:Plus work supplies, plus groceries, use on bus

[fluffernutter]

I'd say yes to all of that.

In a bag that's not a thief magnet

[tepples]

A compact laptop is small enough and light enough that I can use it to work on hobby projects while commuting to and from my day job or the grocery store. A full-size laptop is far less convenient to use while riding in a somewhat cramped public transit seat. And unlike a compact laptop, which can be disguised by being carried in a satchel, a traditional laptop bag is more likely to act as a magnet for thieves.

A little early for a Memoriam

[Xabraxas]

I haven't seen a server come without a VGA port yet.

Removes the abilty to copy

[Catbeller]

No more analog holes for you! Surveillance and control for all.
Last stop: earphone jacks. Then everything is locked down for external monitoring and permission.

Not in the professional/server space

[rrohbeck]

I was just in a meeting with Dell about their next generation. There's no demand for anything but VGA because all infrastructure is VGA based. There isn't even IPMI for anything but VGA.

Laptop on bus

[tepples]

Who the fuck needs a laptop?

Someone who doesn't own a car. A laptop lets you use a computer while you ride public transit.

Re:Laptop on bus

[Dog-Cow]

Unless you take a train with tables, you have to be a masochist to use a laptop on PT.

Re:Laptop on bus

[zokum]

I know loads of people that enjoy using their laptops on the ferry. You could also use a laptop on a plane trip. Public transport is so much more than bus and train.

Re:Laptop on bus

[Zontar The Mindless]

Dunno why, but I googled.

I'm sorry for your loss, and I hope people still think of me ten+ years after I'm gone.

My 8 month old laptop has a VGA port

[spiritplumber]

it's a gaming laptop, which works great for gaming and GA stuff. It has VGA output and HDMI output. With a bit of love, they can even output different images.

Someone tell projector manufacturers that...

[rklrkl]

If you look at projectors designed to be hooked up to laptops and desktops, guess which is the most common connector on them? Nope, it's not HDMI, but actually VGA! It's actually quite hard to find a projector without a VGA connector even in 2016...

Thank you /.ers

[simplypeachy]

I came here for these comments, and they were here in droves. Y'all give good rant.

Active DVI-D to VGA

[tepples]

I think the idea is to use an active DVI-D to VGA adapter with its own video DAC. This will work for anything that doesn't try to push HDCP over DVI-D, but it'll probably be a lot more expensive than a cheap $10 Monoprice cable.

I still use VGA!

[antdude]

Mostly because of my old Y2K KVMs I use with multiple computers.

Re:I still use VGA!

[k6mfw]

Or is it because you have multiple cables running all over the place and you don't want yank, reroute, climb into dusty areas to replace all those cables?

Re:I still use VGA!

[antdude]

Hahah. Yep.

Thats interesting

[spire3661]

My 14nm Intel NUC has a VGA port on it. The 22nm version of the NUC didnt even have VGA, why would intel add it on their most forward facing machines when the previous 22nm models didnt have it? There must be a market need for it.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00HO... (22nm Core i3)

http://nucblog.net/wp-content/... (14nm 'Celeron')

Re:I miss VGA already

[rhodium_mir]

Lots of PCs have Displayport or Mini Displayport connections. You can convert to VGA with a $5 adapter.

(sorta) standard PC connector, perhaps

[phorm]

Yeah, the closest thing might be "longest running popular connection standard for multi-resolution/computer video". There's some muddling between the good ol' 15-pin connector itself and the standard devices using it apply. For a lot of the predecessors, there were video standards but a really bewildering variety of cables/connectors for them.

So how about the others?

The old yellow RCA connectors *still* exist, but their resolution leaves much to be desired (though Nintendo stuck with a long time), but they also carried audio. Still used by low-res devices, and available on most TV's.

Replaced by S-video, which offers slightly better quality.

Then ... Component video. Higher resolution via more cables with colours that fade and are easily mixed up.

Oops, almost forgot coaxial, which is thankfully mostly dead now, and I don't recall any computers using this (exempting some addon "TV cards"). It's still used in some lower-res longer-range stuff (security camera etc) , but often using BNC's instead of the twisty connector on TV's

DVI is still around in some places, but mostly on its way out. In many cases its size killed it as vendors would opt for either VGA or HDMI.

Speaking of HDMI.... it's the cable you love and hate at the same time. Pure digital. carries audio channels and even network data . Carries video at an increasing range of resolutions. Also, a useless mostly friction-fit connection that fecking pops out or comes loose at very inopportune moments. Much as I found the pins on VGA/DVI annoying at times, at least the damn cables didn't drag themselves out of the socket or bend under their own weight. The only thing worse is damn "is this the right orientation" USB.

Displayport seems to fix the above issue a bit. At least the cables click in and seat well. The connector can still get bent by a mass of heavy cables though.

Overall ,VGA was/is a very good standard cable/connector standard. Cables tended to last well even under shyte conditions, the connector stayed plugged in. It handled a wide range of resolutions, and had a very long lifespan. The connector was a reasonable size too. Overall still my favourite.

Re:If only...

[jonwil]

Its the same on the Gigabyte motherboard I purchased about a month ago. One DVI-D port, one VGA port and one HDMI port (none of which I use since I have an NVIDIA card that also has one DVI port and one VGA port for some reason)

Re:8 channel audio + gbps on aux lane. Short cable

[Dr Herbert West]

HDMI is actually worse at long runs than VGA/DVI/HDSDI/10BaseT. One major advantage of VGA is that it doesn't carry that fsking EDID (Extended display identification data) signal.

Ever had an issue with plugging a video source (laptop/xbox/camera) into a monitor over HDMI and having the signal cut to black? Or when trying to capture video onto a laptop? It's because both the source AND the monitor have to do their little handshake and exchange EDID numbers if they're using HDMI.

This is a defect-by-design implemented to prevent piracy-- it's why you can't easily record a store-bought blu-ray or DVD onto a digital camera.

This has the added effect of causing connection failure at longer HDMI cable runs if you aren't using ACTIVE hdmi cables, signal boosters, or EDID spoofers, since any interference at long runs can cause the EDID signal to be lost, and the monitor will automatically take a shit on you.

I'd rather use VGA than HDMI for this reason-- the resolution isn't 1080p, but the signal is stable at least. This is why you'll see VGA being used in auditoriums, lecture halls, etc-- the presenter tends to be really far from the projector.

Uh, yeah...

[emag]

Well, I guess I'll need to find all-new DisplayPort or DVI or HDMI KVMs for my server farms. Hint: Ain't gonna happen. Any rack-mounted KVM I've found has only be VGA, as recently as last year. Even systems I'm speccing for server refreshes, all have VGA ports. It's gonna suck when VGA finally goes away, but at least in the headless server space, it doesn't seem soon...

Yes, VGA not dead

[Blaskowicz]

It's a lot easier to give up VGA because monitors, by and large, are not expensive, and even when they are there will still be methods to get analog video to them either through add-in cards or through conversion devices.

This is precisely what is happening on Intel Skylake motherboards. The chipset or processor doesn't support VGA, but there are like three lines for display outputs internally. It is common already that a converter is built onto the motherboard so that one of the output ends up as VGA instead of digital, and that is cheap enough.

Cursory look at current motherboards ("bottom of the barrel" on price) tells me the COM port is quite common still, and even LPT is still available on the back sometimes.

See :
Gigabyte GA-H110M-S2PV DDR3
ASUS H110M-D D3
Gigabyte GA-H110M-DS2 DDR3

Re:8 channel audio + gbps on aux lane. Short cable

[AK Marc]

I've seen VGA run much farther than that. Over 30 feet, it usually gets artifacts, shadows, ghosts, and such, but you can run high-quality cables from servers to a KVM on the other side of the room. Can't do that with HDMI or Displayport. There is no length specified in VGA, so you can't exceed it. And boosters were cheap and plentiful last I looked (a long time ago), so you could run it across a factory, with appropriately placed boosters.

but projectors?

[Mirar]

So what are we supposed to use to connect to the old legacy projectors that is hanging around in offices and only talk VGA?

Is this a conspiracy for companies to buy new, bright, high resolution and silent projectors? I'm all for it.

Re:Why are there so many articles linked to Hackad

[Zontar The Mindless]

New tag: "fiszczys" (pronounced "fish-cheese"). (Fishing for hits on a cheesy story, heh.)

Re:If only...

[Blaskowicz]

There's a trend of low end boards having only three PCIe slots. A board with two PCIe and two PCI slots (sandwiched between the PCIe) is better. If you install a PCIe graphics card that cover the second slot, the first one will leave you with only one PCIe 1x available. The second motherboard leaves you with one PCI and one PCIe 1x available.

"For some reason, manufacturers refuse to use a DVI-I port"
Separate rather than combined ports allow to use both instead of just one. That also avoids the issue of having both a DVI-I and a DVI-D port : one does VGA and the other not. People routinely find out about it when they have to use dual VGA and they can't. Confusing, frustrating and infuriating.
In my opinion, DVI can go and VGA can stay. You can get a passive cable with DVI on one end and HDMI on the other (or Displayport). There's an exception to that, yet : you can't easily get dual link DVI that way.

one thing certain the CRT is dead

[k6mfw]

Though it seems those big clunkers had better contrast than many flat screens, but I'm not the strong-back/weak-mind 20-something that can easily lug those 32" monsters around (especially at work there was always moving monitors around).

Configuring those things was sometimes a tedious exercise. I heard if set refresh rate at 85 hz, the monitor will burn itself out. Getting back to VGA and these days of automatic configuration, I have been wondering what is the framerate from the computer, and the refresh rate of the monitor. I hear they are 60 Hz (I think it really is 59.94hz) but looking for actual technical specs, I keep finding sales/marketing generalities. But what is the usual framerate of a VGA output?

Re:Why are there so many articles linked to Hackad

[rjstanford]

I dunno, "fish-cheese" has a certain je ne sais quois to it all by itself.

No mention of the Amiga!!??

[JohnStock]

Delete the article at once