Patch Tuesday Brought Windows 10 Ad Generator

jones_supa writes: Microsoft has been very aggressive on getting Windows 7 and 8 users to upgrade to Windows 10. The company has introduced a "Get Windows 10" system tray icon, moved the upgrade to "recommended" category in Windows Update, and even initiated the OS download automatically. The latest trick is almost comical: KB3139929 is an actual security update for Internet Explorer, but it also deploys a trojan horse, KB3146449, which is an advertisement generator for Internet Explorer. On computers not joined to a domain, it adds a blue banner when a user opens a new tab, saying "Microsoft recommends upgrading to Windows 10".

Comments

Even less likely to update

[michelcolman]

I don't use Windoze, but if I did, I would be even less likely to update now.

Re:Even less likely to update

[Anonymous Coward]

You are meaningless to MS. Anyone that say Windoze or M$ or any of the other stupid shit that detracts from real issues and completely makes you look like a moron is not a concern of MS. You will never accept anything they do. Anything. Ever. And they know this. There are people like you for all major players and they are all the same. You don't like MS. We get it. So go away or make a viable alternative. No one else is there yet. Closer but still a long ways away and until that happens MS can do whatever they want.

There are some real things to be concerned about in the current OS space and I'm not at all happy about what MS is doing but talking like a 12 year old script kiddy doesn't help anything.

Re:Even less likely to update

[stooo]

Upgrade to Linux is recommended...

Re:Even less likely to update

[houstonbofh]

You are meaningless to MS. Anyone that say Windoze or M$ or any of the other stupid shit that detracts from real issues and completely makes you look like a moron is not a concern of MS. You will never accept anything they do. Anything. Ever. And they know this. There are people like you for all major players and they are all the same. You don't like MS. We get it. So go away or make a viable alternative. No one else is there yet. Closer but still a long ways away and until that happens MS can do whatever they want.

Linux is a viable alternative in my home and has been for some time. Also I have more and more clients seriously looking at it and switching over more workloads, including some desktops. And things like this make Linux more attractive. And Mac... And just giving up the computer and using a tablet. In the past year I have been removing Windows more then installing it. (Replace laptop with a tablet for example.)

Re:Even less likely to update

[Big Hairy Ian]

The Irony is they are using IE to promote an OS with which they intend to kill off IE!

Re:Even less likely to update

[DedTV]

I do. And I'm much, much more likely to update now.


To linux.

If you are using IE, that's what you get

[rjejr]

Nice timing of the article, right after the one about Opera's native ad blocking. I will update my Win 8 machine before the free Win 10 option goes away, but not much before.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[Anonymous Coward]

From a security standpoint you are better off on 10. The only reason to stay on 7 or 8 at this point is principle but principle doesn't keep your computer safe. Food for thought.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh please, it'll never go away. They're not going to spend a year pushing people to upgrade to what they know is designed to make money AFTER the installation then suddenly add a $100 price tag.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[Chas]

Really. Care to explain how you're less secure on two operating systems that are still receiving support and patches vs their new adware delivery platform?

Specifics please.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[evolutionary]

Well..if MS can add an ad trojan to IE, they could add plugins to Opera as well to circumvent it like they did with their .NET plugin for Firefox. Wish that just not using IE would stop this sort of nonsense from MS, but they control the OS. And as they have all the backdoors and all the keys, that means if you "own" their OS, in point of fact, they own you. :-(

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[Anonymous Coward]

I will update my Win 8 machine before the free Win 10 option goes away, but not much before.

Then downgrade again to Windows 8.

That is a "Upgrade" (from windows 10) to windows 8.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[jones_supa]

More eyeballs looking at the code.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[Anonymous Coward]

Really. Care to explain how you're less secure on two operating systems that are still receiving support and patches vs their new adware delivery platform?

Specifics please.

Specific Win10 security improvements include:

- Improvements to address space layout randomization (ASLR), Data Execution Prevention (DEP), the heap architecture, and memory-management algorithms reduce the likelihood that vulnerabilities can enable successful exploits.
- Protected Processes isolates nontrusted processes from each other and from sensitive operating system components.
- VBS, built on top of Microsoft Hyper-V, protects sensitive Windows processes from the Windows operating system by isolating them from user mode processes and the Windows kernel.
- Configurable code integrity enforces administrative policies to select exactly which applications are allowed to run in user mode. No other applications are permitted to run.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[nikkipolya]

Principle? Which one? I think its usability. Windows 8 and thereafterwards is unusable.

Food for thought

!? Learn to think first.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[evolutionary]

How do you figure that? Windows 10 sends more "telemetry" data to MS than windows 8 (which is why they push the update). And although the stream is encrypted. MS is not exactly Mr. wizard when it comes to security. that stream will be hacked (probably by China first) sometime soon and all that data will be in the open.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[ilsaloving]

If this comment wasn't so blatantly homophobic, I'd give it a solid golf clap.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[KGIII]

Microsoft has been collecting this information for years and years. At this point, we've no known security incidents involving the data collected via telemetry. It could have been compromised and they not told us but that's a bit unlikely. At any rate, they've been collecting metrics, in one form or another, since the XP days. They're certainly collecting more now but they do have a history of keeping that data to themselves - at least publicly. And no, I'm posting this from Lubuntu, not a Windows computer. I don't have any computers with Windows installed.

Re: If you are using IE, that's what you get

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows 10 also has more attack surfaces thanks to all the helpful useless end user garbage toys like Cortana. In addition with the silent encryption key backups to Microsoft's servers and other built in spy features, I'm not sure how you can say it's more secure even with the improvements listed.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[Anonymous Coward]

Specific security implications in Windows 10:

- Sends your data to a large host of Microsoft addresses without your permission.
- Ignores your attempts to disable this activity.
- Installs and displays ads to you in a manner similar to PUP adware
- Changes your settings to actively promote their money making ventures.
- Lies and hides changes in the attempt to mislead the user into thinking they are secure.

On one hand Win 10 might might help prevent an infection from a third party actor. On the other hand you guarantee that Microsoft has unfettered access to your computer, its usage, and all of the data it contains.

In that case I will stick to the might get infected and mitigate the risk with antivirus. It is safer.

Re: If you are using IE, that's what you get

[bill_mcgonigle]

Privacy is a good to many people, not just a principle. The new technical security features in Win 10 only help when the attacker isn't Microsoft.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[Anonymous Coward]

Now that you mention it, the last time they were this determined to get everyone to switch to a new version was with NT.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
 

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[Dunbal]

You can't - unless you pirate it. If I recall correctly, the "condition" of the free upgrade is they invalidate the key to your previous version. It's Windows 10 or nothing, suckers! There's no going back!

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[Dunbal]

From a security standpoint you are better off on 10.

[citation needed] Ok I'll accept that because Windows 10 adoption is so small there's not that much malware targeted at it yet. From a "security" standpoint IIRC, pretty much any security problem you have since Windows 7 has been your own damned fault for opening that attachment, running that trojan that came with that game/app you got off a disreputable site, or using shitty Adobe products.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[QuietLagoon]

...The only reason to stay on 7 or 8 at this point is principle...

The reasons I stay on Windows 7 are (1) it works for my needs, including security, and (2) I don't want Microsoft data harvesting my family.

.
If there were a documented way to turn off all the data harvesting in Windows 10 (and have it stay turned-off), I'd have moved to Windows 10 weeks ago.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[entropy01]

I'd say that the NSA using MS error reporting is a pretty good "known security incident" for this type of thing.
http://thehackernews.com/2014/...

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[Dunbal]

- Ignores your attempts to disable this activity.

From what I've read it doesn't simply ignore your attempts to disable this activity, it actively bypasses around it by connecting to different servers, etc.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[Dunbal]

China won't hack the stream, they'll hack into and mine Microsoft's servers directly and get what they need from there.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[Anonymous Coward]

Specific security implications in Windows 10:

- Sends your data to a large host of Microsoft addresses without your permission. - Ignores your attempts to disable this activity.

I know there was a story saying Win10 was pinging MS IP addresses even if telemetry was disabled, but there was no information on what information was transferred. So say "sends *your data*" is hyperbole. And about the telemetry that most of this is about: I'm actually with a competitor of MS, but we too use telemetry as an incredible useful tool to improve the product for our users. I'm not sure what people believe is being transmitted, because they jumble this issue together with the ad business and personal information/tracking issue, but we have no interest in *your* personal data in a telemetry context. We want to know where our users encounter problems, and what they actually use and prefer, in their use of of the product to improve it.

Also, it is a bit strange that this anger over tracking of personal data is directed at Microsoft while the really big elephant in the room on this issue is Google. Microsoft has a miniscule ad and info-peddling business. They actually closed down and sold off much of it late last year. Google has a gargantuan data collection business. And almost no matter how much you think you are blocking, they have advanced server side finger printing that tracks you anyway. So long before boycotting Win10, boycotting all of Google's services would be a minimum if you really care about this.

- Installs and displays ads to you in a manner similar to PUP adware

I've configured and uninstalled apps so my Win10 is not showing any ads that I see. You could argue I shouldn't have to, but it wasn't hard. YMMW.

- Changes your settings to actively promote their money making ventures. - Lies and hides changes in the attempt to mislead the user into thinking they are secure.

Can't say I have experienced this but would be interested in any specific examples..

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[Megol]

Specific security implications in Windows 10:

- Sends your data to a large host of Microsoft addresses without your permission.

Really? My logs doesn't show that.

- Ignores your attempts to disable this activity.

Nope. Unless MS works together with misc. sites like /. to send steganographic covert information. You know it's possible to verify right?

- Installs and displays ads to you in a manner similar to PUP adware

Really? How come I don't see any ads then?

- Changes your settings to actively promote their money making ventures.

What?!?

- Lies and hides changes in the attempt to mislead the user into thinking they are secure.

On one hand Win 10 might might help prevent an infection from a third party actor. On the other hand you guarantee that Microsoft has unfettered access to your computer, its usage, and all of the data it contains.

In that case I will stick to the might get infected and mitigate the risk with antivirus. It is safer.

You are just another conspiracy theorist.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

(I'm not the AC you replied to, but I have a similar position on this issue.)

And about the telemetry that most of this is about: I'm actually with a competitor of MS, but we too use telemetry as an incredible useful tool to improve the product for our users. I'm not sure what people believe is being transmitted, because they jumble this issue together with the ad business and personal information/tracking issue, but we have no interest in *your* personal data in a telemetry context. We want to know where our users encounter problems, and what they actually use and prefer, in their use of of the product to improve it.

I'm sure you do want to know that, and I've no reason to doubt your good intentions. The thing is, I work with clients in security-sensitive industries. So regardless of what you'd like to know or whether I believe in your good intentions, the fact is that if you have any phone-home behaviour that I can't completely and reliably disable, my business isn't going to use your product.

Also, it is a bit strange that this anger over tracking of personal data is directed at Microsoft while the really big elephant in the room on this issue is Google.

We don't use a lot of Google services, either, for exactly that reason. Just because we're avoiding Windows 10 in significant part because of the privacy concerns, that doesn't mean we aren't also avoiding other software or services for the same reason.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[Anonymous Coward]

Not quite true. You *can* go back with a clean or image reinstall, but will have to negotiate with the phone drones to reactivate.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[Dunbal]

Any halfway decent lawyer would call it Microsoft's nail in the coffin, because if ever these new "features" result in someone's machine being pwned DESPITE the user attempting to disable this "feature", Microsoft would be liable no matter what the EULA says. While IANAL I'm sure Microsoft can't hope to enforce a EULA that obliges you to accept to be extorted by ransomware, for example.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[Anonymous Coward]

You can roll back up to 30 days after Win 10 install. I did it, no problems with activation.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[QuietLagoon]

...Specific Win10 security improvements include:..

None of those supposed "security improvements" makes up for the large-scale data harvesting of my family by Windows 10.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[Fieryphoenix]

You do not recall correctly.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[spire3661]

What if i dont want my computer to send you that information? It doesnt matter what YOU want it for, I DO NOT WANT YOU TO HAVE IT. Why is that so hard to understand? Telemetry is great, we all know its benefits, thats not the argument here. The argument is that the user ultimately should have the right to decide what data you get and that choice should be sacrosanct.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[Anonymous Coward]

That's how you recognize a Microsoft shill these days. I call it "the kindergarten defense", "Steve did it too!!" Of course it's just as much bullshit when it's on /. as it is in kindergarten, but these morons doesn't seem to understand it, nor that the rest of us are grownups and see it for what it is.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[thegarbz]

- Ignores your attempts to disable this activity.

From what I've read it doesn't simply ignore your attempts to disable this activity, it actively bypasses around it by connecting to different servers, etc.

You get your news from reddit don't you. The guys who block a single IP address and then a shocked SHOCKED I TELL YOU that their PC would dare attempt to communicate with a different IP because we all know redundancy is the work of Satan.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[thegarbz]

behaviour that I can't completely and reliably disable, my business isn't going to use your product.

As a matter of interest do you suggest your clients use a Home version of an OS in a security related enterprise routinely? Because Windows 10 has specific features that allow enterprises to control this behaviour in great detail.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[KGIII]

My home is in New England. (I'm at a *house* in Florida that I own.) In New England, we're Anderson people!

I probably should have been a bit more clear, actually. I do have Windows installed on my phone. I actually picked it up because a /.er mentioned it. I've been pretty happy with it but I don't use it for much other than to make calls, send text messages, write a quick email, and browse the web. It has all the apps I'd want and then some. There are apps in the store - there just aren't a bunch of garbage apps - from what I've noticed. However, I don't really have many installed as I mostly just use my phone's stock applications.

Yup. It's odd but it's true. I have a Windows phone and I like it.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

You're setting up a false dichotomy. Don't forget that a huge amount of the business world is small businesses and independent professionals.

Those smaller businesses have traditionally run Pro editions of Windows, and in many cases will not even have access to Enterprise. The relationship of Home:Pro:Enterprise in Windows 7/8/8.1 is not the same as the relationship in Windows 10.

Plenty of those smaller businesses also won't have dedicated IT staff responsible for things like checking the background for every update and trying it out in a controlled environment before deploying it via WSUS, or spending hours reading up on how to configure new software not to phone home. If you want their custom, in any regulated or security-sensitive industry, then either you give simple, robust guarantees and controls, or you're probably out of luck on that sale.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[KGIII]

No, I'd say that's borderline schizo-paranoia and not an actual breach but an interception of data in transit. I'm sure you'll find whatever reasons you can possibly come up with to justify your angst and outrage. But no, I'd not call that a security incident, not even remotely. That doesn't excuse them sending the data in the clear but the data is not something you need to worry about. You can see the reports before you send them - or not. You don't even have to send them. To add to that, all current (known) transmissions are encrypted.

I know, it's terrible that the NSA slurped up the data but them slurping up the vendor ID on your USB device is the least of my concerns with the NSA's data molestation. No, I'd not call that a security incident. And no, no I'm using Linux - Lubuntu. If you're still using Windows then you're making the choice to do so. Stop it. Just stop it. If you don't like them, don't use them. If you're going to say that it's your work machine then, oh well? That's not your machine to be concerned with. It doesn't belong to you nor does the data on it belong to you and if your company insists on using it then that's their choice.

Go buy a Mac. Wipe the drive on what you have and install any Linux distro out there. Either way, no, that's not even remotely a security incident. There's no loss of security. Now, if it were the forced telemetry that they're doing now and it was in the clear, then I'd say it was a security incident. You did not lose any security (nor did Microsoft) because the NSA slurped up your USB vendor ID.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[Dunbal]

It happens at my age.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[Curunir_wolf]

The only reason to stay on 7 or 8 at this point is principle

Nope. There are software incompatibilities, believe it or not. WMC, for instance, is not supported and there's no easy way to get it back. There are some hacks on the Internet to make it work, but even with that some features still fail. There are lots of printers with no driver available, too. Even if there is a compatible built-in, you lose feature. None of the built-in drivers support PIN printing.

Re: If you are using IE, that's what you get

[Dunbal]

I'm not making it up. They do invalidate your key. What I didn't know was that if you begged them on the phone they would give it back.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[danomac]

The reasons I stay on Windows 7 are (1) it works for my needs, including security, and (2) I don't want Microsoft data harvesting my family.

I thought this was fairly well known now, but Microsoft backported the telemetry to Windows 7/8/8.1. If you're blindly installing updates without checking to see what they are, you've already installed it.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[cas2000]

> How are they going to monetize finding your medical file?

by analysing it and adding it to your profile, and then sellling that to whoever wants it (including insurance companies and potential employers and employment agencies and others who use medical information to discriminate against individuals)

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[KGIII]

I love me some Moxie. Moxie, instead of root beer, floats are awesome. That is all.

Re: If you are using IE, that's what you get

[Cederic]

If Microsoft have it, every tla in the US has it.

That's not secure.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[geminidomino]

From a security standpoint you are better off on 10.

WiFi Sense. Enough said.

And don't give me any bullshit about how you can turn it off or change your SSID and MS "promises to ignore it. Honest." The fact that it was ever considered worthy of being coded tells you all you need to know about Win10's attitude toward "security."

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[Darinbob]

The only reason Windows 10 is better for security is because all the malware will come from a single source; Microsoft.

Re: If you are using IE, that's what you get

[Darinbob]

Privacy is a part of security.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[Darinbob]

Do you implement telemetry without telling your customers? Do you forbid your customers from turning off the telemetry?

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[Darinbob]

Microsoft is essentially jealous of Google. They want to spy on all the data too.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[Darinbob]

Godwin's law doesn't state that discussion ends.
And if someone very obviously is a shill, why not use that label? They may not be a paid shill but they're clearly reiterating Microsoft's talking points, and Microsoft is known to use shills often.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[Darinbob]

Will Pro edition allow you to turn this stuff off and disable automatic updates? Becuase can get the Pro version for free but no way am I going to pay that much for an Enterprise edition.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[Darinbob]

Duck Duck Go. Noscript. Adblock. Cookie blockers. Maybe they're not 100% effective but fighting against oppression is still better than surrendering and getting the Google/Apple/Microsoft tattoo on your ass.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[Darinbob]

The business world does not have morals. If it can find a legal way to do something evil and it will make them money with no blowback then they will do it. Often they'll blur that "legal" line anyway.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[Darinbob]

A reasonable company would offer you a choice. An unreasonable company removes choices. Most people who are good at business realize that you need to keep the customers happy if you want their money, but Microsoft seems to not learn this lesson.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

If you mean Windows 10 Pro then officially, no, though it's somewhat more flexible than Home. Pro in Windows 10 feels significantly different to Pro in earlier versions, because despite the branding it doesn't actually have the control that a lot of professional and small business users will require in terms of turning off remote control and phone-home behaviour.

Re: If you are using IE, that's what you get

[houstonbofh]

You are confusing attack surfaces with privacy. The privacy thing is an additional problem. But more programs running all the time mean more things to attack and more ways to attack them. More complexity does not lead to more security.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[houstonbofh]

behaviour that I can't completely and reliably disable, my business isn't going to use your product.

As a matter of interest do you suggest your clients use a Home version of an OS in a security related enterprise routinely? Because Windows 10 has specific features that allow enterprises to control this behaviour in great detail.

So if you want to secure one desktop, you really need Windows Server and AD... Well, that will keep my small business TCO down.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[houstonbofh]

Then... don't use the software. There is no arguement. Accept the telemetry features and use it or... don't.

No one know what tracking the were consenting to. That is the point. And they gave an option to turn it off that did not turn it off. That is the definition of deceptive trade practices. If this does not end up in court or the justice department, I will be surprised.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[bingoUV]

They're certainly collecting more now but they do have a history of keeping that data to themselves

So did A&P and Radioshack. Data once out of your control cannot be brought back into it.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[Waccoon]

If there were a documented way to turn off all the data harvesting in Windows 10 (and have it stay turned-off), I'd have moved to Windows 10 weeks ago.

Even that wouldn't be good enough for me anymore.

First, it's pretty obvious that if a company has the gall to collect personal data in the first place, they are just testing the waters to see how far they can go before people complain. It's only a matter of time before they go a little further. Like most applications that slowly hide features and allow you to "restore" them with a simple config file change, you know it's only a matter of time before the features and config settings will be removed entirely due to the fact that, "According to our telemetry, nobody uses that feature."

Second, it's been brought to my attention that Windows10 is locking certain settings if they OS thinks you are abusing them. Win10 allows you to defer updates rather than install them right away, but if you defer updates too many times, the OS will lock out the control panel option to defer updates, forcing you to update on a schedule determined by the OS. Yes, the option in the control panel is actually greyed out and won't allow you to change it anymore. Do you really have a choice if that choice has an expiration date or will only work a limited number of times?

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[dagoalieman]

I actually wonder why it's so hard for any company to say "Here's what we collect, here's why we use it. Here's an option to submit automatically, review before submit, or not send at all. And oh yeah, here's an option to remove data from reports or to decline to ever send a selected field."

I can say this- if a company were transparent and provided a means to verify what they were doing (IE not secretly sending a few extra undocumented pieces), I might be more inclined to send data based on that honesty than I should be. There might still be stuff I take out, but if I know what's being sent instead of just "Hey there's a crapton of data on my line, I've no clue what it is, where it's going, or why!!"

Barely related side note- crap like this actually makes me miss dialup. With broadband, sending these little reports back isn't too noticeable if you're just on a workstation on a dsl line at home, and while you might have firewall or other setup, most folks including IT nerds "set it and forget it.". People really don't tend to care if there's no user experience impact.

Back in Win XP days a friend of mine, who *damn well* shoulda known better, linked a pretty cool Matrix screen saver in group chat about the time the movie was gaining steam in media. Everyone knowing he's competent admin, always does due diligence etc, checks it out. At the time I was at bumfuck Missouri visiting family where dialup was the only option (even until less than 5 years ago.) Well, after installing the screensaver, I noticed that the modem activity indicator was going in the systray for 10-20sec periods. I only had IRC loaded, no web browser, nothing else that would be hitting the network, and knew what to expect traffic wise of standard OS functions. (I HEREBY ACCEPT MY PUNISHMENT OF ETERNAL JUDGEMENT, UNPAID MALWARE REMOVAL, AND FINGERPOINT AND LAUGHING- You guessed it, this screensaver had a new nasty riding its coattails. Yes, I should have checked myself etc etc, trust me I knew instantly my errors, and have used that lesson well in life since. The screensaver actually wasn't sending much data at all, apparently a C&C check that had no new instructions at that time.. but enough data that I noticed- only because of dialup. The group chat of admins did some reverse engineering on it, reported to McAfee and Norton (back when, relatively to today, they didn't suck, and were the big AV players, we hit several minor ones as well)- both companies worked with us, updated defs within 6hr, gave us credit for the find. Seriously though- dialup was the hero here, it would have likely gone undetected for a while if not for seeing small data being forced to take a long time to transmit.

Kinda sucked, because for the time, it really was a dang decent screensaver with 3d effects that by today's standards wouldn't be awesome but not aged/antiquated.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[evolutionary]

Oh, I just discovered on IE 11, there appears to be an update mechanism (with option to uncheck) separate from the Windows Update services. I haven't tested this yet but it appears to be a separate option on the browser itself. It it is what I think it is, MS is looking to push IE updates separately (another back door). It's in that left-hand gear icon, under IE Updates. (nobody things of going in there anyway...). Sneaky, sneaky...

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[thegarbz]

So if you want to secure one desktop, you really need Windows Server and AD... Well, that will keep my small business TCO down.

Yeah it should. The small business server with active directory can automate the process of centralised backup, storage and email for your small business. It's childlike to maintain, easy to setup, and costs almost nothing in the grand scheme of running a small business. If you have more than about 3 employees it's already worthwhile.

Unless you hate your data. It's always fun to watch small businesses grow perpetually thinking that a couple of small laptops completely unmanaged is the way forward because OMG COST!

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

I hear you on the dialup thing. Some of my current work is in networking, so I quite often wind up running some sort of protocol analyzer or sniffer, and the amount of junk that's getting thrown about not just on internal networks but between local machines and Internet servers these days for non-obvious reasons is actually quite scary.

Re:If you are using IE, that's what you get

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

Business, just like everyone else. Do you really think anyone in regulated or security-sensitive industries, no matter their size or resources, has the ability to fully audit every piece of software and hardware they use? In reality they don't, even the industry giants in fields like finance or healthcare.

At some point, you have to make reasonable policies based on the best information you have, and to some extent, you have to be able to trust your suppliers. That is why Microsoft including non-security junk in what they present as a security update is such a big deal. That is why Microsoft including phone-home or remote control features in Windows 10 without clear and reliable ways to control them is a big deal. For us, they have lost that trust, and because we are concerned about security, we won't use Windows 10.

First ad!

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't be left hanging! Get your viagra now!

Re:First ad!

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder if they will sell me an ad

"Are Microsoft ad's in Windows 10 driving you nuts? Join the Linux revolution and say goodbye to these ad's!"

If they refuse to take the ad could it be construed as monopolistic trade practice?

Hyperbole

[Anonymous Coward]

"but it also deploys a trojan horse"

A trojan horse is something that claims to be something that it isn't. Everything is very up front about what it is so long as you actually read what it is. It may be a bit underhanded, but it most certainly isn't a trojan horse.

Remember folks, hyperbole rarely helps your cause.

Re:Hyperbole

[blackomegax]

Yeah no. 98% of users just see "update available" and click ok. 1 more % might read KB###### and click OK. the other 1% might actually read what it is. SO yes it's a trojan horse.. The entire update system's vagueness allows for that. Until it's telling the 99% "you're getting ads now, yes or no?" it's a forced, trojan, horse.

Re:Hyperbole

[ThosLives]

That's one thing I've always disliked about Windows updates. Why can't they put a description in Windows Update instead of making us look up KBxxxx? It takes forever to click on them and see what each one claims to do.

Re:Hyperbole

[dfm3]

A trojan horse is something that claims to be something that it isn't.

Ever followed through to figure out exactly what most of the updates presented in Windows Update actually do? The description for KB3035583, for example, reads, "Install this update to resolve issues in Windows." Yeah, if the "issue" with windows is that I have 7 installed instead of 10... It's only after clicking the CORRECT link for more information (there are two, the second just takes you to the generic support page) that you discover this update actually installs the Get Windows 10 app.

That level of obfuscation sounds exactly like a trojan horse to me.

Re:Hyperbole

[mrclevesque]

It's Security update that contains non-security updates including an ad for Windows 10. So it's claiming to do one kind of thing but it's also doing another kind of thing that doesn't conform to what was claimed would be done.

Re:Hyperbole

[fisted]

I think you answered your own question there.

Re:Hyperbole

[Anonymous Coward]

A trojan horse is something that claims to be something that it isn't. Everything is very up front about what it is so long as you actually read what it is.

It's not up front in this case. Read the description page for KB3139929. You need to dig deep to find that there's an advertisement included. In the list of meta-updates, KB3146449 (which adds the advertisement) is simply described as "Updated Internet Explorer 11 capabilities to upgrade Windows 8.1 and Windows 7".

Re:Hyperbole

[joboss]

> Windows Update Client for Windows 7 and Windows Server 2008 R2: March 2016 > This article describes an update that contains some improvements to Windows Update Client in Windows 7 Service Pack 1 (SP1) and Windows Server 2008 R2 SP1. This update has a prerequisite. About this update > This update contains some improvements to Windows Update Client in Windows 7 SP1 and Windows Server 2008 R2 SP1. Improvements? What constitutes an improvement? What's the problem solved? Who is it an improvement for? http://www.infoworld.com/artic... Oh, it's Windows 10 which I DO NOT WANT. I do not want a fully remote managed operating system. I want a PC. PERSONAL Computer. Didn't I hide that update option as well?

Re:Hyperbole

[joboss]

Oh and they have built up now. So I'm pretty much resolved to stop updating windows.

Re:Hyperbole

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a security patch for CRITICAL vulnerabilities in IE, that also includes Windows 10 advertising. I repeat, this is a CRITICAL security update. Advertising should not be any part of this.

How do I deploy the CRITICAL exploit patches without also getting Windows 10 advertisements? I don't? That is a trojan horse as far as I'm concerned. Fuck everything about this update.

Re:Hyperbole

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

Why can't they put a description in Windows Update instead of making us look up KBxxxx? It takes forever to click on them and see what each one claims to do.

Because if you knew what it was, you might not install it.

Re:Hyperbole

[Dunbal]

Windows 10 is a trojan horse. And it looks like it's letting in the entire Greek army.

Re:Hyperbole

[Dunbal]

OK this is the "I'll be unethical because you're lazy" defense. Hey you're not perfect, so maybe it's ok if someone shoots you. I mean we're just applying the same code of ethics here.

Re:Hyperbole

[WaffleMonster]

A trojan horse is something that claims to be something that it isn't.

Well it claims to be a security update and it isn't.

Everything is very up front about what it is so long as you actually read what it is. It may be a bit underhanded, but it most certainly isn't a trojan horse.

In other words you could have always pried upon the horse to make sure it wasn't filled with soldiers and incendiary devices.

Re:Hyperbole

[ilguido]

Yeah because feeding deep detailed information to non-technical masses works so really well for wide spread acceptance of Linux and other more technical OSes right?

I don't know how someone could think that "Install the Get Windows 10 app" is a more technical, more obscure description than "Install this update to resolve issues in Windows". It's even shorter...

Re:Hyperbole

[Dunbal]

It's the same logic. GP claims sarcastically that user laziness means Microsoft is being dishonest. But they are not mutually exclusive. Users are lazy AND Microsoft is also being dishonest. And claiming that Microsoft's dishonesty somehow justified by said laziness doesn't work either. Just because all the other kids at school are doing it doesn't mean you get to do it too.

Re:Hyperbole

[scdeimos]

Everything is very up front about what it is so long as you actually read what it is.

You don't actually use Windows, do you? If, in Windows Updates, you elect to view the list of updates it wants to install then every update is described with the same boilerplate "update to security and stability blah blah" text. Often the links for the updates go to a generic Microsoft Support page and if you want to find out about a specific update you have to search for the specific KB number in its title.

Re:Hyperbole

[dissy]

A trojan horse is something that claims to be something that it isn't. Everything is very up front about what it is so long as you actually read what it is.

Fair enough. Let's actually read what it is then, and I'll let you show us where it mentions up front that it inserts advertisements into Internet Explorer.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3139929

This security update resolves several reported vulnerabilities in Internet Explorer. The most severe of these vulnerabilities could allow remote code execution if a user views a specially crafted webpage in Internet Explorer. To learn more about these vulnerabilities, see Microsoft Security Bulletin MS16-023.

Additionally, this security update includes several nonsecurity-related fixes for Internet Explorer.

The only hyperlink is the phrase "Microsoft Security Bulletin MS16-023" which directs to the page:
https://technet.microsoft.com/library/security/MS16-023

This security update resolves vulnerabilities in Internet Explorer. The most severe of the vulnerabilities could allow remote code execution if a user views a specially crafted webpage using Internet Explorer. An attacker who successfully exploited this vulnerability could gain the same user rights as the current user. If the current user is logged on with administrative user rights, an attacker who successfully exploited this vulnerability could take control of an affected system. An attacker could then install programs; view, change, or delete data; or create new accounts with full user rights.

This security update is rated Critical for Internet Explorer 9 (IE 9), and Internet Explorer 11 (IE 11) on affected Windows clients, and Moderate for Internet Explorer 9 (IE 9), Internet Explorer 10 (IE 10), and Internet Explorer 11 (IE 11) on affected Windows servers. For more information, see the Affected Software section.

The security update addresses the vulnerabilities by:
- Modifying how Internet Explorer handles objects in memory

For more information about the vulnerabilities, see the Vulnerability Information section.

Personally I do not consider the phrase "Additionally, this security update includes several nonsecurity-related fixes for Internet Explorer." to be anything resembling up front about what it does. There are no further details.

Worse, the phrase "non-security related fixes" appears at first glance to be a hyperlink, but it actually links to https://support.microsoft.com/
There is literally no additional information and the hyperlink is useless.
The main support landing page in fact makes no mention about Internet Explorer anywhere, let alone details any changes to it.

Where is this up front explanation about the advertisements added to the browser?
Where is any mention of the non-security update that this new ad clearly is? Or any other potential non-security updates since it is specifically worded as plural meaning more than one?
Where is this greater-than-one-item listing you claim exists that we simply are ignoring?
Exactly what phrase actually stated on those pages would lead one to believe this behavior would be changed to make any type of informed choice regarding the update?

Re:Hyperbole

[Stan92057]

And its blackmail don't agree to install the adware you don't get the security fix. That's blackmail in my book.

Re:Hyperbole

[Cederic]

You are a cunt.

I could write a full knowledge base article explaining why in technical terminology but I can summarise my point in four words that any Slashdot reader can easily grok.

Windows updates are no different. "Fixes remote access bug" is easy for users to understand. "Installs annoying fucking popup" is easy to understand. "Improves windows update" is a fucking lie, dishonest and fraudulent.

Re:Hyperbole

[Darinbob]

Never mind that, the security update doesn't mention the Windows 10 stuff at all when you read it, though it does list the number of the first update along with an obfuscated one line description. The security update is very clearly trying to sneak in that advertisement update. So it is indeed a Trojan horse.

Remember that just because some people can spot the trap door on the bottom of the horse doesn't mean it's not a Trojan horse.

Re:Hyperbole

[hucker75]

The banner says "Microsoft recommends upgrading to Windows 10". If you can't understand that simple sentence, you don't have the right to complain when you suddenly finds you have Windows 10.

Walks like a duck...

[Anonymous Coward]

The fact that they are pushing it so hard tells you everything you need to know. This update benefits Microsoft in a very big way. Scratch that -- in a HUGE way. And if it benefits Microsoft in a huge way, take a wild guess how much it benefits you.

We don't even need to know the first thing about what the update actually does. All we need to know is that Microsoft is extremely determined to make it happen, to the point where they will actually try to trick you into it.

Re:Walks like a duck...

[RenderSeven]

The fact that they are pushing it so hard tells you everything you need to know.

Kirk: You should take the Vulcan too.
Kruge: No.
Kirk: But why?
Kruge: Because you wish it.
- Star Trek III

Re:Walks like a duck...

[quintus_horatius]

This update benefits Microsoft in a very big way. Scratch that -- in a HUGE way. And if it benefits Microsoft in a huge way, take a wild guess how much it benefits you.

They're already adding a trojan to your old version of Windows using a security update, so they can also add the tracking infrastructure as well -- they don't need you to upgrade to Win10 for that. Whatever bad nasty things they have in Windows 10 they can easily add to your old version of Windows as well.

Maybe they're just sick of the old versions making them look bad, and they just want them to go away by replacing them with a better version?

Re: Walks like a duck...

[Anonymous Coward]

Fitting- the same film Kirk "upgraded" to a Klingon BoP.

Re:Walks like a duck...

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot was cooler when the smart people hadn't yet been replaced with aggrieved paranoids. Moving people to the latest OS, is just good business. There's nothing nefarious about it.

Re:Walks like a duck...

[lgw]

Maybe they're just sick of the old versions making them look bad, and they just want them to go away by replacing them with a better version?

It's not Windows 7 making them look bad. Windows users like Windows 7. Win10 is maybe better for touch screens, but very few Windows tablets shipped with Win7 in the first place.

Old versions of IE certainly make them look bad, but they could aggressively upgrade IE without forcing a change to OS version.

Re:Walks like a duck...

[darkain]

It isn't the tracking system they want to push, though. They want to push the Windows Marketplace to compete with the Android Play Store and Apple App Store. While in theory they could install and operate the Windows Marketplace on Windows 7/8, Windows 10 comes with new architecture under the hood which is required for many of the new applications to run (such as the new Universal Apps). Their whole game is being a massive storefront, just like their main competitors.

Re: Walks like a duck...

[spire3661]

He killed Kruge in honrable comabt and thus became Captain of the Bird of Prey. Thats how Klingons roll.

Re:Walks like a duck...

[MitchDev]

Old versions of IE certainly make them look bad, but they could aggressively upgrade IE without forcing a change to OS version.

Edge is no better...

Re:Walks like a duck...

[thegarbz]

Maybe they're just sick of the old versions making them look bad, and they just want them to go away by replacing them with a better version?

Maybe they are a company which realised a product and are pushing the new version of that product. Screw em I say. Never buy from a company that releases a product and then pushes it.

Side note: Owncloud client said an update was available today and I'm using an old version. What is the world coming to!

Re: Walks like a duck...

[Type44Q]

There's nothing nefarious about it.

Right, because it's not Microsoft we're talking about here.

Re:Walks like a duck...

[Spobody Necial]

The fact that they are pushing it so hard tells you everything you need to know. This update benefits Microsoft in a very big way. Scratch that -- in a HUGE way. And if it benefits Microsoft in a huge way, take a wild guess how much it benefits you.

My guess? I "bought" Windows 7. They GIVE Windows 10, but require that you accept updates. They've already indicated that the next version of Windows (which will have no version indicator, they said) will be a return to the old mainframe leasing rules, and you will pay an annual leasing fee in order to keep your OS working. Nobody's made any convincing argument yet that the conversion from 10 to the annual lease won't be a mandatory update to 10. I don't think 10 is meant to spy on me and learn all my deepest, darkest, innermost secrets. But I think it is a way to make sure you comply with the updates, including the one which will start charging you an ongoing fee. Nope. Not converting from the license I PURCHASED.

Re:Walks like a duck...

[Joce640k]

I tried upgrading my laptop to Windows 10 and it fails. "All your files are right where you left them"? Um, no. They weren't.

If they ever _force_ the upgrade my laptop will be trashed.

Re:Walks like a duck...

[tattood]

Never buy from a company that releases a product and then pushes it.

So you never by from any company, ever?

Re:Walks like a duck...

[PCM2]

Win10 is maybe better for touch screens

I was actually one of the people who appreciated the touch screen features of Windows 8, since I had a lot of (free) tablets and touchscreen laptops lying around. The irony is that there was so much backlash against Windows 8 that Windows 10 actually doesn't work as well with touchscreens as Windows 8 did.

Re:Walks like a duck...

[Ol Olsoc]

Never buy from a company that releases a product and then pushes it.

So you never by from any company, ever?

Depends on the pushing. I have some software that has been asking me to update it for a while now. NO biggie, just a nag screen once a week or so.

But Microsoft and their Windows 10 policy is just way too aggressive. I know of a couple cases where the owners of the computer tell me that W10 installed itself, without inut on their part. Now I'm a little skeptical, but concerned. I have a Windows 7 install on an iMac that is running in bootcamp. Microsoft took the liberty of downloading the W10 files, and is bugging the shit out of me every time I boot.

I might have even updated, but it's a mid 2011 iMac, and bootcamp for W10 doesn't exist for it. So I'm sitting there waiting to see if it nails me.

If it ends up updating itself, It'll hose the system.

There's a lot to be said with playing nice, and Microsoft isn't

Re: Walks like a duck...

[Cramer]

To be fair, he blow up his ship (that he had to steal in the first place) and that Klingon junker was all that was available.

Re:Walks like a duck...

[thegarbz]

I have a sarcasm detector to sell you. It's awesome. You won't believe how amazing this sarcasm detector is. You really must have this sarcasm detector. You should buy my sarcasm detector as it will change your life.

Re:Walks like a duck...

[thegarbz]

I know of a couple cases where the owners of the computer tell me that W10 installed itself, without inut on their part

Plenty of people managed to confuse "input on their part" with "stupidly clicking yes to anything that pops up".

It downloads the updates and bugs you to install it, but quite frankly what OS doesn't these days. (Don't say Linux, I just SSHed into an Ubuntu server which told me a system reboot was required as it downloaded and installed updates. And you can't blame forced updates on this since we're talking about Windows 7)

Re:Walks like a duck...

[Fragnet]

I'm pretty sure if they did that my home PC would revert almost immediately to Linux, especially now Vulkan is out and the graphics stack looks like it may actually start working correctly.

Re:Walks like a duck...

[MrNiceguy_KS]

It isn't the tracking system they want to push, though. They want to push the Windows Marketplace to compete with the Android Play Store and Apple App Store...

There was actually a massive "App Store" on Windows long before IOS or Android even existed: Steam. Microsoft has been trying for years to siphon off Steam's role as the "gateway to gaming", and Valve lately has been working to "Microsoft-Proof" their business model with SteamOS and cross-platform games.

Re:Walks like a duck...

[cas2000]

That's exactly why MS are doing it.

They want to destroy that established software market so that all software has to be bought on their app store (this, BTW, is why Valve has become so interested in Linux in recent years - they need an OS to jump ship to if/when MS destroys their business by abusing their control over the Windows OS to lock out competitors).

and MS will claim they're doing it for security - installing third party software that hasn't been vetted by microsoft is "too dangerous".

of course, they won't acecpt any responsibility or liability for their "vetting" process.

Re:Walks like a duck...

[Stan92057]

How many security updates have included adware? Who would expect to be given a choice, fix security bug in IE means you also must download adware...don't download puts your PC and your property at risk...Looks like blackmail to me.

Re:Walks like a duck...

[Ol Olsoc]

I know of a couple cases where the owners of the computer tell me that W10 installed itself, without inut on their part

Plenty of people managed to confuse "input on their part" with "stupidly clicking yes to anything that pops up".

It downloads the updates and bugs you to install it, but quite frankly what OS doesn't these days. (Don't say Linux, I just SSHed into an Ubuntu server which told me a system reboot was required as it downloaded and installed updates. And you can't blame forced updates on this since we're talking about Windows 7)

Actually, I have to approve every update on My Mac, and the same with my Linux machines.

I have the Mac set to automatically check for updates. If there are any, I can decide - I've never had an issue with them screwing up my computer, Linux also checks but doesn't download or install. And a complete OS update? No, W10 is the only OS that downloaded the entire OS without my permission. And you have no choice with W10, you are getting those updates whether you want them or not. On Pro, the rumor was you could turn off updates, but you can only delay them, and the update whne it happens often rests the updates to automatic.

So tl;dr version - you are wrong.

Re:Walks like a duck...

[erapert]

and Valve lately has been working to "Microsoft-Proof" their business model with SteamOS and cross-platform games.

I believe it's a good move that will work for Valve if they can get more acceptance of SteamOS and Linux in general. I'm not a fanatic about everything being open source, and I do play a lot of games so I was ecstatic when Steam came to Linux. Alien Isolation ran flawlessly for me, XCOM and XCOM 2 are running great, Empire: Total War was a blast, Chivalry runs great for me, the Source games run great-- the point is that there are real AAA titles on Linux and they really do run well.

Because of the huge variety of high quality and easy to use desktops available for Linux and because Steam has brought good solid gaming to the Linux desktop now is, without sarcasm, the best time to switch to Linux.

I urge you slashdotters to seriously consider using Linux (Ubuntu, Mint, Debian whatever) as your primary or even full-time desktop for a couple months. If you like it and it works for you then why not stay?

Re:Walks like a duck...

[Darinbob]

This is utterly ridiculous. They've arranged things so that even if you're checking each update manually that this can slip by. Because this is done by an*security* update! You have to read really closely, because it says:

This security update resolves several reported vulnerabilities in Internet Explorer. The most severe of these vulnerabilities could allow remote code execution if a user views a specially crafted webpage in Internet Explorer. To learn more about these vulnerabilities, see Microsoft Security Bulletin MS16-023.

Additionally, this security update includes several nonsecurity-related fixes for Internet Explorer.

The last line has a link in it, but it doesn't go anywhere to give you additional information. You have to scroll down to see the list of nonsecurity related fixes, and the last one just says:

Updated Internet Explorer 11 capabilities to upgrade Windows 8.1 and Windows 7

Ta-da, that's the malware right there. Very easy to miss even if you're on the ball.

I mean who the hell works this hard to obscure an advertisement? This is like the Little Rascals trying to sneak into the movie theater by standing on each others shoulders under a trenchcoat while wearing a fake mustache. Except that the Little Rascals are funny whereas this behavior is evil.

Re:Walks like a duck...

[Darinbob]

It is very nefarious because they are hiding their advertisements inside a security update. Many companies require their workers to accept all Windows security updates. They're only doing this because of a few users who have been smart enough to disable the other advertisements pretending to be updates, but rather than just accepting that those users don't want to see the ads they are resorting to subterfuge.

It's an advertisement for a product we pay for. That in itself is poor behavior. Then week after week of trying to sneak in advertisements with their updates. Oh but the fans claim they weren't sneaking things in because a smart user would inspect each update first before accepting. But then they're including the advertisement hidden in a security update now, clearly disguising the content to try and sneak past the diligent user. Read the security update description and it's obvious that they were trying to disguise what the update included.

How can you possibly not be paranoid at this point?

Re: Walks like a duck...

[Darinbob]

Microsoft lies. They lie often. They're not even good about lying, I've seen 2 year olds with more convincing excuses about where the missing candy went. No one with a brain should trust anything Microsoft says anymore.

Re:Walks like a duck...

[Lotana]

Would of been nice if they had Windows 8 Tablet Edition and Windows 8 Desktop Edition. Everyone would be happy (Except people that plug a monitor into their tablet, but nothing is perfect).

Sure, two sets of code, but happiness of customers should come first. Barring that, how about detection of the screen type:

if (Display supports touch functionality)
    Show tablet mode
else
    Show desktop mode

Re:Walks like a duck...

[Lotana]

They want to destroy that established software market

They are THE biggest player in the desktop arena. Sure Apple did make some inroads, but still nothing compares to the MS juggernaut. As much as /. community loathes it, there is nothing that can challenge them here. Their backwards compatibility support is top notch!

Why would the biggest fish want to poison the pond?

Re:Walks like a duck...

[rhyous]

It actually does benefit us as users. If Microsoft can get everyone off of Windows XP, Vista, 7, 8, and 8.1, they can focus on 10 and later. If the can focus, the product will be better. If the security team isn't patching Windows 7/8, then they are working on improvements that we all need.

If everyone is on Windows 10, their will be a larger market for Apps, and apps long missing from Windows will come.

Re:Walks like a duck...

[Motherfucking Shit]

(Don't say Linux, I just SSHed into an Ubuntu server which told me a system reboot was required as it downloaded and installed updates. And you can't blame forced updates on this since we're talking about Windows 7)

The CentOS instances I'm responsible for don't update anything, nor even inform me of updates, unless I run yum check-update. Of course I have a cron.daily script on each system that does this and emails me if there are updates available, but I had to implement that myself. I don't have Ubuntu installed anywhere but the behavior you describe doesn't jive with my experience on Linux over the years. Did you have to enable a feature for that or is Ubuntu really updating itself out of the box?

As if we trust the real pirates...

[GeekWithAKnife]

I never allow windows to automatically download anything. I go to the trouble of reading the updates despite microsoft saying shit like "recommended update" and "Fixes critical vulnerability in windows" without actually saying what the fuck it does. I click through and read the darn KB.

I didn't like M$ at the best of times but I appreciated windows 7, it works. It seems that they were dissatisfied with that and couldn't figure out how toi give people MORE VALUE so they decided to piss us off with shoving the damn thing down our throats.

We are sufficiently angry to tell M$ they can go fuck themselves and their stupid windows 10.

Re:As if we trust the real pirates...

[Anonymous Coward]

I click through and read the darn KB.

I tried to do that as well, but my experience was that it never said what it was fixing, just that it was "good stuff that you need" (paraphrased, obviously). Do you have a link to one in particular that is insightful? I'd love to be able to actually know what they're mucking with when I install updates.

Ramble: I'm actually very seriously considering going back to the old setup I was running, with Linux as the master OS and Windows in a VM only when I need it, but life is busy and Linux administration is time consuming.

On my work machine I've been getting regular notifications about the MS spam programs being blocked by the company's security software, which is itself awfully spammy.

Re:As if we trust the real pirates...

[SScorpio]

The KBs don't contain information about what they are fixing.

It can take days to weeks to months for companies to deploy updates. And releasing exact details of fixes will be handing out exploits.

Re:As if we trust the real pirates...

[An ominous Cow art]

I was willing to trust the updates until the Windows 10 'upgrade' crap started being pushed out. Now I at least skim every one before installing.

What is the real reason for this push?

[ka9dgx]

Why is Microsoft pushing Windows 10 so bloody hard? What financial incentive is there for this?

Re:What is the real reason for this push?

[secretsquirel]

If they get enough upgrades the person in charge of this shit gets a huge bonus.

Re:What is the real reason for this push?

[Anonymous Coward]

Monetising your personal data.

Re:What is the real reason for this push?

[Archtech]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ma...

Re:What is the real reason for this push?

[freeze128]

Support of one OS (Windows 10) versus support of Windows Vista, Windows 7, Windows 8, and Windows 10.

I think the incentive is quite obvious.

Re:What is the real reason for this push?

[evolutionary]

The financial incentive is small I Agree. My guess it's another test to see how many people will swollow this poison pill before creating something even more aggressive and compromising. That has been MS's pattern since WGA.

Re:What is the real reason for this push?

[nine-times]

There have been theories that Microsoft is gathering a lot of telemetry that they intend on leveraging or selling, but there is a pretty simple, non-nefarious reason why they would want to push people to the latest version: support costs.

This was one of the theories for why Apple stopped charging for OS upgrades, that it's easier and cheaper for developers to deal with support and patching if almost everyone is running the same version. In a weird way, Microsoft has sort of shot themselves in both feet by basing such a large part of their business into vendor lock-in and backwards compatibility. It's left them trying to support their old OS for a very long time, and even if they discontinue support 13 years later, large portions of their customers complain and freak out. The vendor lock-in part of their plan created vast amounts of software that needs to run on Windows XP and IE 6, and trying to make a lot of that stuff work on newer versions of Windows leaves them maintain legacy code.

I suspect a lot of the Windows 10 stuff (e.g. making it free, pushing people to update, making it hard to disable automatic updates on Windows 10) is about getting everyone to get the latest version and then keep up to date with the latest version. That way, MS can start breaking backwards compatibility and stop wasting their time making updates for an release from 10 years ago.

Re:What is the real reason for this push?

[Anonymous Coward]

...goal is to get everyone on the same code base, ...

That's a load of bullshit. If that was true, they would allow XP and Vista, who massively outnumber 8 users, to upgrade. They need it the most. Also, they would allow Enterprise edition users to upgrade. I know a lot of people that want to upgrade, including myself, and none of us are allowed to do the free upgrade. If Microsoft wanted people to do the free upgrade, they would allow us to do the free upgrade.

Re: What is the real reason for this push?

[ilsaloving]

Hey, it works for Oracle.

Re:What is the real reason for this push?

[joboss]

MicroSoft is doing what would be the right thing, but they are doing it the wrong way. We have always needed better options for updating software automatically in a centralised fashion. But if I wanted what microsoft are doing I would just install android or OSX on my PC instead.

Re:What is the real reason for this push?

[iampiti]

I had already modded but I feel I have to contribute...
- On Win 10 they heavily push they services and if you eventually use them: -- They get tons of data about you which they can presumably monetize -- They can also make money directly off them. Those services include : Windows Store (30% cut of all the purchases like Google and Apple in their mobile app stores), OneDrive (data and maybe you'll plunk down money for extra space), Cortana (data), etc. Also they get you into their ecosystem (Win 10 integrates quite well with Xbox One) and they figure that'll make them extra money: Maybe you'll buy a Windows Phone or an Xbox. The intention is also to help them gain marketshare on mobile where they trail Android and iOS by a wide margin. And the PC is a stagnant market while the growth and money is on mobile.
To sum up, they basically saw the PC as a platform on decline (which it is) and thought using their dominance on PC to try to push you to their services and devices ecosystem and try to gain marketshare on mobile where they were practically dead.

Re:What is the real reason for this push?

[iampiti]

Now with nice formatting... I had already modded but I feel I have to contribute...
- On Win 10 they heavily push they services and if you eventually use them:
-- They get tons of data about you which they can presumably monetize
-- They can also make money directly off them.
Those services include : Windows Store (30% cut of all the purchases like Google and Apple in their mobile app stores), OneDrive (data and maybe you'll plunk down money for extra space), Cortana (data), etc.
Also they get you into their ecosystem (Win 10 integrates quite well with Xbox One) and they figure that'll make them extra money: Maybe you'll buy a Windows Phone or an Xbox. The intention is also to help them gain marketshare on mobile where they trail Android and iOS by a wide margin. And the PC is a stagnant market while the growth and money is on mobile.
To sum up, they basically saw the PC as a platform on decline (which it is) and thought using their dominance on PC to try to push you to their services and devices ecosystem and try to gain marketshare on mobile where they were practically dead.

Re:What is the real reason for this push?

[JoeyRox]

If support costs were Microsoft motivation then they could have just stuck with Windows 7 and kept collecting their OEM licensing checks.

Re:What is the real reason for this push?

[hmckee]

All of which would have been fine if they did it correctly, instead they:
1. Changed default app file associations
2. Upgraded to buggy or non-working drivers
3. Installed unwanted software that was difficult to remove (Windows OneDrive)
4. Installed monitor software that should ask for permission
And probably other issues I've missed. Don't mess up my system which I'm using to do work and depend on for my livelihood.

Re:What is the real reason for this push?

[Opportunist]

If you do that, the customer improvement failed since you for sure are not an improved customer (from MS' view, at least).

Re:What is the real reason for this push?

[kheldan]

What if we don't want the 'latest version'? What if their 'latest version' breaks more things that it fixes? What if they decide to remove a feature that breaks the user experience, or breaks something else for the user? Where is the ability to choose??? How is it a good thing when someone you don't even know is making unilateral decisions about how hardware you depend on and paid for out of your own pocket?

Re:What is the real reason for this push?

[Opportunist]

XP and Vista are out of support already, there is no need to cater to their users. They are, as far as MS is concerned, dead anyway.

Win7 and Win8.x they still have to support and patch.

Re:What is the real reason for this push?

[PRMan]

All Enterprise users can always upgrade or downgrade versions. At least, that's always the way that I've seen it.

Re:What is the real reason for this push?

[PsychoSlashDot]

There have been theories that Microsoft is gathering a lot of telemetry that they intend on leveraging or selling, but there is a pretty simple, non-nefarious reason why they would want to push people to the latest version: support costs.

Thing is, they aren't get to get everyone. And as long as anyone is still on Win7/8, they can't reduce support for it early.

I figure it's mostly about getting as large a base of users with Windows Store as possible, as quickly as possible. People might not start using it today, or tomorrow, but the sooner you start, the sooner it might become the distribution point for software.

Re:What is the real reason for this push?

[Dunbal]

Fuck forbes.

Re:What is the real reason for this push?

[spire3661]

I block Forbes.com at the router.

Re:What is the real reason for this push?

[Gojira Shipi-Taro]

Quite honestly, as someone in the software industry for many years... generally you want people to upgrade to the newest version for ease of support. The faster they can EOL older versions without much impact, the less financial impact supporting those versions will have.

I'm sure there are other factors as well, but they do have legitimate reason to want to move people off of older versions of the OS.

Re:What is the real reason for this push?

[nine-times]

Where is the ability to choose???

I don't think Microsoft has ever really cared about that.

Re:What is the real reason for this push?

[nine-times]

... and kept collecting their OEM licensing checks.

As Apple, Google, and others slowly eroded that market...

Re:What is the real reason for this push?

[nine-times]

Thing is, they aren't get to get everyone. And as long as anyone is still on Win7/8, they can't reduce support for it early.

Thing is, they don't need to get everyone. If they don't have to support old stuff, that reduces their costs and improves their strategic plans in a way that is (arguably) worth some dollar amount. Let's call that number $[x]. In dropping support (or just providing very poor support) for old versions of their software, they will also lose business that is worth $[y]. If [x] is a much larger number than [y]... well...

Re:What is the real reason for this push?

[jawtheshark]

Vista is still in extended support until April 2017. source

Re:What is the real reason for this push?

[acoustix]

> All Enterprise users can always upgrade or downgrade versions.

I have never seen that. Not once. CDW said we had to pay $299 to upgrade from 7 to 10. We've tried the upgrade a couple of times, and we see why Microsoft discourages it. It's an absolute and utter disaster. Plus, it was even more sluggish than 7.

CDW? Really? Go through a proper vendor that doesn't rape you with their pricing. CDW has some of the worst prices I've ever seen. You're probably better going through Dell, HP or IBM to get your licenses. They tend to sell them close to cost.

Re:What is the real reason for this push?

[wierd_w]

Due to MS's insistence on pushing the Get windows 10! "update" to my systems, I have started treating it like it was a very aggressive form of malware.

So far my solution is able to block installation.

Basically, create a dummy GWX folder in the %systemroot%/system32 folder, then put DENY ACL on everything for the Everyone object. This keeps windows update from putting anything in there. (And even if somehow it manages to actually put something in there, it wont be permitted to run.)

Then do a similar thing with all the registry keys associated with the get windows 10 update. (Then the keys already exist, but cannot be read by anyone. This prevents the windows update service from setting any values, essentially hamstringing the software it wants to install.)

From then on, every time windows tries to install the "update", it will fail. (For obvious reasons.)

This is a bit of a PITA, but it works, and works more reliably than some other options. Windows update screams angrily in the system log about it, but MS can go fuck itself. I can't think of a better way to tell MS that, "No, I DO NOT WANT Windows 10, Stop asking!" than that.

Re:What is the real reason for this push?

[Waccoon]

It's worth pointing out that Windows10 isn't free. If you're buying/building a new PC, you need to buy a license. Given that almost all of MS's sales come from OEM bundles with new computers, its unlikely that giving it away for free to people with existing computers will hurt their bottom line.

Besides, against my recommendation, my dad insisted that I install the free update to Windows10 on his media center. The compatibility tools said the PC was compatible with Win10, but after the update hardly anything worked. Apparently the PC is too old and Win10 drivers are lacking. If we weren't into building out own computers, I supposed the logical next step would be to buy a new PC with a new Windows10 OEM license. What has MS to lose?

Re:What is the real reason for this push?

[nine-times]

It's worth pointing out that Windows10 isn't free.

Right, they're only making upgrades free, but still it's noteworthy that they're doing that, and the question is "why?"

They may not make tons of money from Windows upgrade licenses, but they've made some. It appears that they've decided they're willing to lose that money in favor of encouraging upgrades. My post was meant to explain why upgrades helps Microsoft, even in cases where they don't directly make money from it.

Re:What is the real reason for this push?

[PsychoSlashDot]

Thing is, they aren't get to get everyone. And as long as anyone is still on Win7/8, they can't reduce support for it early.

Thing is, they don't need to get everyone. If they don't have to support old stuff, that reduces their costs and improves their strategic plans in a way that is (arguably) worth some dollar amount. Let's call that number $[x]. In dropping support (or just providing very poor support) for old versions of their software, they will also lose business that is worth $[y]. If [x] is a much larger number than [y]... well...

Errr. Thing is, they do need to get everyone. Read my comment. You can't reduce support for a product that still has users. It doesn't matter if the market share is down to 5%, you still need to provide the same level of support. If you're thinking about per-incident telephone support, that's a money-making proposition. Support costs are really about the effort to patch & update older OSs. And you can't stop doing that until the 10-year extended support period is over.

Re:What is the real reason for this push?

[nine-times]

Thing is, they do need to get everyone. Read my comment. You can't reduce support for a product that still has users.

You absolutely can reduce support for a product that still has users. You just might face a backlash.

How much you care depends on how big and pronounced the backlash is, but that depends on a few different factors, including how many users there are for that product. If they were to get 99% of users on Windows 10, they might still officially provide support for the 10-year period, but I can tell you that they wouldn't put as much money, effort, or focus into providing that support.

Home Users are the beta testers

[SB5407]

I think it's because Microsoft's plan seems to be to use the home users as the beta testers for their "free" Windows 10, and they need lots of them to beta test it for their paying customers, which are businesses and enterprises.

Re:Home Users are the beta testers

[evolutionary]

Except that home users will pay for a new license if they don't have Windows 7/8. It's like the Tom Sawyer chapter where kids pay to do Tom's work (whitewashing). Mark Twain would have a field day with this. The "Free" upgrade is not really free. The upgrade itself I consider a trojan, as it tries t install itself without your explicit consent, thus installing spyware (ahem, 'telemetry data" collection).

Re:Home Users are the beta testers

[Dunbal]

The long term plan is rent seeking. Like Office 365, etc. Windows 10 is just another step in that direction. Give the OS away for free (paid for by ads), and eventually charge for any "features" on a monthly or as needed basis. Oh and suck up and mine all that data that can be packaged and sold, too.

Calling it a Trojan Horse is a bit much

[Gojira Shipi-Taro]

It's annoying, certainly, but Trojan Horse? Come on. Dramatic much?

Re:Calling it a Trojan Horse is a bit much

[Ayanami_R]

"ad generator" is a bit much too, but people seem to see ads everywhere these days. I guess when chrome says an update is ready it's an ad now?

What's even funnier is that as these kinds of false attacks intensify, adoption just keeps trucking along.

Re:Calling it a Trojan Horse is a bit much

[Anonymous Coward]

If it's a non security adware item inside what is called a "SECURITY UPDATE", then yes, I'd say that fits the very definition of a Trojan.
I.e. it's something that appears to be routine to convince someone to install it.

Re:Calling it a Trojan Horse is a bit much

[evolutionary]

No, it's a trojan: meaning that you got something you didn't want, and you would reject if you knew what it was. By definition, that is a trojan. whether it's just annoying or harmful, it's still a trojan, installing itself without informed consent claiming it was a "security" update.

Re:Calling it a Trojan Horse is a bit much

[war4peace]

Here's what's really sad:
It all started with this Infoworld.com article. There's no definitive proof that "On computers not joined to a domain, it adds a blue banner when a user opens a new tab, saying "Microsoft recommends upgrading to Windows 10"."
I checked my Windows 7, windows 8 and windows 8.1 VMs. All have the update. None exhibit the behavior presented above.
None of the other machines I managed to check (which I don't own) exhibit the behavior.
There is no screenshot I could find online that shows the blue banner.
This seems to have blown out of proportion based on ONE single article which might just as well be a load of bullshit, and Slashdot is making it even worse.
What the fuck has /. become, Faux News?

Re:Calling it a Trojan Horse is a bit much

[pr0fessor]

The fact that it's bundled with a security update is underhanded but given that it does describe what is being installed and what it's doing it can't be a trojan, more like adware.

Re:Calling it a Trojan Horse is a bit much

[mrclevesque]

It's a Security update that contains non-security updates including an ad for Windows 10.

So it looks like it does one kind of thing and it's claiming it does that kind of thing, but it's also doing another kind of thing that doesn't conform to what was claimed it would be doing. Sounds trojan to me.

Re:Calling it a Trojan Horse is a bit much

[BitZtream]

No, its is not dramatic.

The update is required as part of an IE patch that is a legitimate security fix.

If you want the security fix, you silently get the patch for this. If you don't want this, you can't get the security fix.

No where in the security fix description does it say its going to install something completely unrelated that nags you about updating to Windows 10.

Microsoft needs a severe spanking for this sort of bullshit.

Re:Calling it a Trojan Horse is a bit much

[Anonymous Coward]

Really?

https://support.microsoft.com/de-de/kb/3139929#bookmark-nonsecurityfix

Scroll down to "non-security related fixes", last table entry: 3146449 Updated Internet Explorer 11 capabilities to upgrade Windows 8.1 and Windows 7
From there look up 3146449: https://support.microsoft.com/de-de/kb/3146449

"This update adds functionality to Internet Explorer 11 on some computers that lets users learn about Windows 10 or start an upgrade to Windows 10. Before you install this update, see the Prerequisites section. For more information about Windows 10, see Windows 10."

Re: Calling it a Trojan Horse is a bit much

[I'm not god any more]

Msn.com homepage? You sure they're not just sniffing OS version on the website?

We have a winner! The lame Windows 10 popup triggers from the MSN.COM site. I have the update, and only saw that popup when going to msn.com - but it only shows the popup once. Closing IE11 and opening MSN.COM does not show the popup again. Maybe a reboot or tomorrow's visit to msn.com might pop it up again.

Re:Calling it a Trojan Horse is a bit much

[srmalloy]

No where in the security fix description does it say its going to install something completely unrelated that nags you about updating to Windows 10.

This is not strictly true. The KB article for MS16-023 (KB3139929), under 'More Information', has 'Nonsecurity-related fixes that are included in this security update', 'General distribution release (GDR) fixes', it lists KB3146449, 'Updated Internet Explorer 11 capabilities to upgrade Windows 8.1 and Windows 7'; if you navigate to the KB article for KB3146449, its description is "This update adds functionality to Internet Explorer 11 on some computers that lets users learn about Windows 10 or start an upgrade to Windows 10." So as long as you're willing to go look up the KB article for the root patch and read it all the way through, and follow all the links to the incorporated KB articles, you'll find out that you may be getting nagware installed on your system, with nothing describing how you can tell whether or not you'll get it unless you just bite the bullet and install the update, then see if you get the nag pop-ups.

Re:Calling it a Trojan Horse is a bit much

[war4peace]

That's a MSN.COM specific one-time banner which is cookie-based. It did appear before this Tuesday patch only on MSN.COM. It is NOT related to this patch.
Twit. (maybe if we speak the same language, you'd get it)

Re:Calling it a Trojan Horse is a bit much

[war4peace]

You saw that because IE11 defaults to MSN.COM when opened for the first time and that banner is MSN.COM-specific.
The article says the blue banner appears when you open a new tab - which doesn't actually happen.
The article vomits bullshit and many other "tech" sites are guzzling it and re-spraying it onto readers.

Re:Calling it a Trojan Horse is a bit much

[war4peace]

Your point being?

Re:Calling it a Trojan Horse is a bit much

[v1]

"this.. adds functionality... that lets users learn...."

Wow... tl;dr: "This installs advertisements". But why do they even bother trying to be sneaky about their wording? It's not like nobody'd going to notice?

Though I still have a problem with "lets users learn". A button "lets users learn". A banner doesn't "let" me do anything, that's just a commercial.

Re:Calling it a Trojan Horse is a bit much

[Gamasta]

The people over at c't, a well respected computer magazine from Germany, checked. Their article includes a screen shot, which I expect is their own.

http://www.heise.de/newsticker...

They claim it appeared. Resetting IE settings to factory default makes it reappear. It is not immediate, but it shows up after a quick test. They claim the software is not very clever either: ads are shown to PCs not able to run windows 10.

Re:Calling it a Trojan Horse is a bit much

[Waccoon]

Lately, MS has gotten into the habit of including the phrase, "on some computers" to many of their updates.

No wonder people have been reporting inconsistent results. Nothing annoys me more than when I have a problem, and some sheep rises up and shouts, "Well, it works fine for ME!"

This is why we need proper documentation. "Resolves a problem in Windows" is simply not good enough.

Re:Calling it a Trojan Horse is a bit much

[war4peace]

Which, as I said countless times in this thread, is NOT a result of Tuesday's patch. It's something that existed BEFORE the patch as well.

Re:Calling it a Trojan Horse is a bit much

[penguinoid]

You think I'd trust news from the microsoft.com website?

Time for Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

I've avoided Linux because of lack of software support for the things I use and the added learning curve.
I think the time has finally come for me to seriously look at using Linux at home.
I understand Microsoft needs to make money, I don't begrudge any 'decent' company from making a profit, thats what corporations are supposed to do.
But once I pay for software (and I have a full OEM license for Windows 7 Pro.), I should have any easy method to disable the nagging to upgrade to Windows 10.
All of this underhanded nagging to upgrade really aggravates me to the point that I'm now willing to investigate using an alternate OS.
Good Job Microsoft!

Re:Time for Linux

[Archtech]

All of this underhanded nagging to upgrade really aggravates me to the point that I'm now willing to investigate using an alternate OS.
Good Job Microsoft!

Well, at least they got you to change operating system...!

Re:Time for Linux

[Cro Magnon]

I also jumped to Linux, but I couldn't properly concentrate on using my computer, as there was so much stuff to manually fix all the time. Thus, I quickly came back to Windows 10. Maybe there's some telemetry, but it's more important to have a computer that works properly.

I switched my desktop to Ubuntu after a W10 upgrade borked my wifi. Nothing to fix, no problems.

So when does the public wake up?

[evolutionary]

Okay, Microsoft has been injecting all sorts of stuff in their interest a the expense of their customers since Windows XP (WGA). We've had more "phone home" since WGA, and progressively more with each release. Windows 10 is the result of prodding a broom handle up our butts progressively deeper and seeing how deep it goes before we say "stop". The "telemetry" (really?!?) data collection, which MS admits you cannot turn off, and now ads in IE? We pay MS for this POS (well I don't touch windows 10 and legal firms and medical practices are aware of why they cannot go to Windows 10 to protect their clients), and MS find more ways to get money from us at the cost of our privacy. When do we say "enough is enough". Unless you are a gamer or have specific hardware (medical mainly), nobody needs MS Windows. Linux (Mint although hacked previously due to carelessness although fixed now), Elementary OS (for mac users), Debian (My favorite, can modify KDE to look like MS Windows/Mac), or even Ubuntu (think they still have a deal with Amazon on desktop searches which is why stopped using it but at least you can turn the amazon forwarding off). Any of these will serve any user. Even gamers may be happy with Linux as there has been an an explosion of games for linux (even 'AAA'...see Pillars of Eternity and Tides of Numunera for example). For those who like privacy I suggest the Tails distro (uses the Tor proxy network by default :D) . We all need to tell MS, enough is enough and we have choices.

Re:So when does the public wake up?

[Flavianoep]

The public gave privacy long ago to Facebook and will never wake up. Most people just think that "10" is better than "7", that Windows must be the best OS or no many people would not be using it. There are even ones that think that Ubuntu is the best, or easiest, Linux just because it is the most popular.

Re:So when does the public wake up?

[ColdWetDog]

Have you ever watched what OS X does? Using a neat little program called "Little Snitch" you can see that everybody tries to phone home. Apple, Adobe, Alphabet (and I'm only on the 'A's). You can think you've shut everything off and up pops another 'can I haz Internet access plz?' warning.

If the net every really shuts down, it will be back to typewriters and correction fluid in a week. Ah, the buzz from mimeograph stencils .....

Re:So when does the public wake up?

[evolutionary]

I have in fact used Little Snitch. It's a cool program but I hadn't looked at it since I retired my PowerBook.. I had forgotten Apple sometimes plays games too. Been mostly been using Debian for awhile.

Re:So when does the public wake up?

[WaffleMonster]

Okay, Microsoft has been injecting all sorts of stuff in their interest a the expense of their customers since Windows XP (WGA). We've had more "phone home" since WGA, and progressively more with each release. Windows 10 is the result of prodding a broom handle up our butts progressively deeper and seeing how deep it goes before we say "stop". The "telemetry" (really?!?) data collection, which MS admits you cannot turn off, and now ads in IE?

It just isn't data collection Microsoft has a full blown BACKDOOR it can deploy at will to exfiltrate ANYTHING it wants from a Windows 10 users system by DEFAULT without their CONSENT or KNOWLEDGE.

https://technet.microsoft.com/...

When do we say "enough is enough".

The most egregious aspect of this in my view is actually the domain check. It is one thing to hide political messages in a security update. I don't consider this to be defensible behavior.

To me the domain check signals Microsoft knows full well what they are doing is wrong so they installed a little check to limit outrage and damage from customers who pay them the most money. It reflects a willfully deliberate calculation of what they believe they can get away with.

Unless you are a gamer or have specific hardware (medical mainly), nobody needs MS Windows

Thank goodness cost of developing multi-platform games continues to fall as major game engines support more platforms out of the box and Vulkan inevitably overtakes dx12.

Re: So when does the public wake up?

[bill_mcgonigle]

This is probably easier now with systems that have firewalld - which is becoming more standard. How much you willing to pay exactly?

Re:So when does the public wake up?

[jrmcferren]

Finally someone thinking like I do. Except I'm thinking typewriters and fax machines.

Staying on Windows 7

[surfdaddy]

I am on the Win10 insider program on my laptop, which I use for surfing, etc. But all my data and real important use is on my desktop, and that's a Win 7 machine. As I approach the time limit for upgrading, I've decided to stay on Windows 7 on my main machine. I don't really see any benefits to Windows 10 that are that important (to me), and I hate the intrusive advertising in Windows 10. I don't really need my OS to serve me ads - lord knows there are enough ads everywhere else without my OS doing it, too. If and when Win 7 becomes unusable or unsupported, I'm seriously thinking desktop Linux, as there is enough software out there now that almost fully replicates what I need and use. Oh, and I'm using the GWX control panel to get rid of the Windows 10 nags in my Win 7 system. I really hate MS for doing this aggressive bit, and I'm throwing them the proverbial finger as much as I can - no Windows 10 on my main machine for me!

Re:use a different browser

[Archtech]

Or just use a different browser. I use Firefox, Opera and Yandex, I accepted the update, but I haven't been bothered because I never open IE. (OK, OK, except for updates).

Thats ok, really...

[johannesg]

I've turned off automatic updates as being the greater security risk. Now no Microsoft-spam is getting through.

GWX Control Panel blocks all the annoying prompts

[Archtech]

GWX Control Panel is your friend. http://ultimateoutsider.com/do...

(I have no interest in, or connection with this free utility).

Obscurity

[Anonymous Coward]

>The only way to get rid of the new advertising inside Internet Explorer 11 is to remove the security patch entirely.

Apparently Microsoft has resorted to the congressional tactic of bill riders under the guise of security.

Re:Another patch worth avoiding

[Xamindar]

Is this legit and the best/easiest option out there to decrapify windows 7?

Re:Wait

[Anonymous Coward]

So a patch for an obsolescent MS browser that puts a notification banner recommending to update to the latest MS environment is a "trojan horse?"

I don't know why I still read Slashdot, except as an example of what dumb looks like.

There are lots of reasons to run older versions of an OS. Frequently driven by outside sources that don't upgrade their code bases to support newer browsers.

Thus, if you are stuck in one of those situations, having MS force notifications on you via "security" patch is definitely not a trustworthy activity.

You might not want to call it a trojan, but given the backhanded way it was installed with no way to remove it and really no way to not install it........

Forbes : Crapitalist Toolbox

[Thud457]

oh the ironing is delicious!

Re:Forbes : Crapitalist Toolbox

[ColdWetDog]

"Ironing"?

Either you've been attacked by your autocorrect again or you really, really like starch.

Re:God I have come to loath micro$oft

[Anonymous Coward]

Given your low UID I'm guessing that's what you've been saying since WinME...

Just stay where you belong. You bring nothing to the open source table. We need doers, not loud mouth morons.

Re:God I have come to loath micro$oft

[evolutionary]

The time is now. I recommend Debian or Scientific OS as they seem to be the most stable (CentOS had an update that messed things up and I had to fix it with a Scientific OS update). For "fuzziness" go with Linux Mint or Elementary OS (not as stable but lots of eye candy and stability is improving rapidly still more stable than M$). A lot of people use Ubuntu and Fedora but Fedora is the "cutting edge" so you may get some stability issue with latest updates. Ubuntu had a deal with Amazon to send them data from desktop searches (which can be turned off, but hard to find in GUI) and maybe they stopped that nonsense, but there are enough good user friendly linux choices that I'd just assume not use an OS that abused (even if very lightly) the trust of the public (they should have asked permission in the installer instead of having it on be default). Tails Linux is cool for privacy freaks which is very secure by default. If you are a gamer. Steam should make you happy. You may like the SteamOS linux distro Steam created. Lots of choices, have fun with it. It's all "free as in beer" anyway. Enjoy and embrace your freedom. You'll probably be as thrilled as I was when I made the switch.

Re:Another patch worth avoiding

[Anonymous Coward]

rem Compatibility update for upgrading Windows 7
wusa /uninstall /kb:2952664 /quiet /norestart
rem Update that enables you to upgrade from Windows 7 to a later version of Windows
wusa /uninstall /kb:2990214 /quiet /norestart
rem Update to Windows 7 SP1 for performance improvements
wusa /uninstall /kb:3021917 /quiet /norestart
rem Update for customer experience and diagnostic telemetry
wusa /uninstall /kb:3022345 /quiet /norestart
rem Update installs Get Windows 10 app in Windows 8.1 and Windows 7 SP1
wusa /uninstall /kb:3035583 /quiet /norestart
rem Update that enables you to upgrade from Windows 8.1 to a later version of Windows
wusa /uninstall /kb:3044374 /quiet /norestart
rem Update for customer experience and diagnostic telemetry
wusa /uninstall /kb:3068708 /quiet /norestart
rem Update that adds telemetry points to consent.exe in Windows 8.1 and Windows 7
wusa /uninstall /kb:3075249 /quiet /norestart
rem Update for customer experience and diagnostic telemetry
wusa /uninstall /kb:3080149 /quiet /norestart
rem Updated capabilities to upgrade Windows 8.1 and Windows 7
wusa /uninstall /kb:3123862 /quiet /norestart
rem Updated Internet Explorer 11 capabilities to upgrade Windows 8.1 and Windows 7
wusa /uninstall /kb:3146449 /quiet /norestart

RTFA

[Zalbik]

Or for those who RTFA, perhaps it DIDN'T include an ad spamming "trojan horse":

I spent most of the night trying to replicate this behavior -- a blue banner on new tabs in IE11 with "Microsoft recommends upgrading to Windows 10" -- and couldn't get it to trigger.

Upgrade? Hardly!

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're using Win8 and have a touch screen, Win10 brings little to the table other than Cortana and much-enhanced spying, and some things (like Windows Mail if you actually use that) are broken that worked in 8. If you're using Win7, there are a few improvements under the hood but by the time you lock down enough of the spying to have reasonable privacy it works like Win7 but with a slighly broken user interface (unless you like tiles on the start menu and extra keystrokes for everything). On the plus side, some old software that was a bit fragile in 7 (and often didn't work at all in 8 without serious demon tweaks) is now pretty stable. Go figure.

Not really new

[scoticus]

This blue banner has been popping up on a few of our business clients' 2012 servers for a while now. So, i don't think I buy the 'not on a domain' bit. Also, upgrade to win 10 on a server 2012 box? wtf MS?

Breaking Trust,Broken Trust

[Stan92057]

Up till now MS has tried its best honestly within the so called rules. Now they have deceptively added advertising to a SECURITY UPDATE . Lawmakers, FTC please take note.

Re: Breaking Trust,Broken Trust

[bill_mcgonigle]

>Lawmakers, FTC please take note.

And people wonder why they're pushing Windows 10 so hard, so fast - everybody's going to be upgraded before the government starts making noise; at that point they'll just decide it's too late to do anything about it and drop the matter. Or maybe settle for 1.35 million dollars...

This shit is going to steer me to a Mac

[TigerPlish]

This shit is going to steer me to a Mac, or maybe push me to a return to Linux.

MS has become more arrogant than Apple and Google put together, and that is saying something.

Full disclosure, I like apple, and frankly almost despise google. I think I have a new hate sink.

Keep pushing...

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

I never got any update notice, but then I've done some things to block the Win 10 updates.

But keep pushing Microsoft- I've got Linux Mint already installed on my laptop (dual boot) and it won't take but about 15 minutes to install it on my desktop too.

The first time I see anything related to Windows 10 on my PC, you're toast. Any conversion, any forced "upgrade", anything like that...and that'll be the last time I run Windows on my PC.

It'll take ~10 minutes to backup and offload my most recent data and 15 minutes to load Mint, and we'll be done. Get it through your heads- I like Win 7, I do NOT want Windows 10, period.

So yeah, just keep pushing and you'll push me right off your OS.

Re:Keep pushing...

[Sir_Eptishous]

Yes, I have done that...
At home.
Obviously things at work are an entirely different scenario.

At home I have an iPad, a Mint media server, a Zorin laptop and a Windows 7 pc used for gaming and recording.

I am using the GWX Control Panel now on that last machine.
I also don't plan on upgrading to 10.

I can guarantee though that MS knows they are losing a small amount of installs of 7/8 to Linux, all while gaining a massive amount of them to 10.

Re:Keep pushing...

[thegarbz]

So yeah, just keep pushing and you'll push me right off your OS.

Carefactor zero. You're already a lost cause. You're not on the monetized platform, you're just running a legacy piece of software that they need to maintain. You're a support cost with a threat to jump ship if you stop requiring one.

I don't think MS would give a crap about your threat, they may just make an update specifically for you to push you over the edge.

Re:Keep pushing...

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

they may just make an update specifically for you to push you over the edge.

I doubt it.

No, they want me to upgrade to Win 10 so they can monetize me, just like everyone else.

Re:GWX Control Panel blocks all the annoying promp

[Archtech]

(I have no interest in, or connection with this free utility).

Sorry, that's ambiguous. I meant that I have no financial interest; I don't stand to gain from its use.

But in the several months since I installed it, is has done a great job of completely shielding me from all the nuisance messages about Windows 10.

Re:God I have come to loath micro$oft

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

I've not tried Debian or Scientific OS, but I can certainly recommend Linux Mint. After about 8 or 9 installs on various desktops and laptops, so far it's been 100% every time. No problems at all, everything works perfectly as near as I can tell. Sound, video, wifi, CD/DVD players, mice, everything.

I can't speak for everyone but for me it's been easy to install and it just works, no fiddling or messing about required.

Re:God I have come to loath micro$oft

[Opportunist]

Back when I was young, "low ID" meant 4 digits. Now get offa my GUI.

They bricked computers with last update

[Maxo-Texas]

I don't think it's stable enough yet.

Re:They bricked computers with last update

[Cro Magnon]

This is not the first time either.
I waited a couple months to install it last year to give them time to get their sh!t together.
I then upgraded and it immediately bricked my computer.
I had to use freaking linux to flatten my hard drive and I then reinstalled win 7.
I have now turned off the windows update because I'm afraid that it might install without my permission.

This is the most half @ssed way to do things and totally pisses everyone off, even long time Microsoft fans like myself.

A Win 10 update borked the wifi on my desktop. I ended up installing Ubuntu. It didn't brick my W10 laptop, but for awhile it had issues when I put it in sleep. Currently it seems to be working okay except for the spyware, but who knows when an update will break something else.

Re:sucks to be you..

[Dunbal]

Wow, how low we have sunk when Vista looks attractive, hehehe.

But wait, there's more!!

[ThatsNotPudding]

Specific Win10 security improvements include:
- Improvements to address space layout randomization (ASLR), Data Execution Prevention (DEP), the heap architecture, and memory-management algorithms reduce the likelihood that vulnerabilities can enable successful exploits.
- Protected Processes isolates nontrusted processes from each other and from sensitive operating system components.
- VBS, built on top of Microsoft Hyper-V, protects sensitive Windows processes from the Windows operating system by isolating them from user mode processes and the Windows kernel.
- Configurable code integrity enforces administrative policies to select exactly which applications are allowed to run in user mode. No other applications are permitted to run.

And all of this can be yours for the low, low price of constant surveillance (shared with any TLA that asks) and unblockable phone-homing.

Act now!!

Re:But wait, there's more!!

[Z00L00K]

Max Headroom feeling.

Re:But wait, there's more!!

[cas2000]

They're amateurs only because they haven't got everyone to "upgrade" to Windows 10 yet.

As well as creating their own Apple-like app store that locks out third-party developers that don't pay a percentage to be "vetted", they also want to undermine Google and take over their business.

They're already embedding ad-delivery into the OS itself, so you get ads in the screensaver (and yes, you can turn that off for now. you won't be able to in future. and they'll probably do more evil shit like modifying the title bar and/or status bar so that they display animated ads)

MS will also have far more information to profile individuals with because they'll have access to *everything* on their computer(s), not just whatever can be spied upon via a web-browser.

And, unlike google where users can choose not to use google services and/or use ad-blockers and no-script to defeat tracking and spying, *every* Windows 10 user will be subject to microsoft spyware with no way to opt out.

How to get MS to change

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Form a non-profit org whose purpose is to remind MS that they serve us, not the other way around

1a. Everybody send in all your money to make 2 and 3 happen

2. Create a superPAC to defeat pro-MS candidates. How-to:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/in-the-loop/wp/2014/04/10/how-to-start-a-super-pac-because-you-can/

3. Hire a lobbyist and get pro-user legislation written. How-to:
http://lobbying101.wordpress.com/recommendations/how-to-hire-a-lobbyist/

Or we can keep bitching...

Security and privacy are not equivalent

[NoImNotNineVolt]

I generally help pile on the Microsoft hate along with the rest of slashdot, but I'd like to point out that security and privacy are two distinct concepts. You've listed privacy implications that have little bearing on security. Your third point is the only one that is a potential security hole, but even that's a bit of a stretch, as the ads displayed by Microsoft are likely vetted quite a bit more thoroughly than what you see with a typical ad network.

Re:Security and privacy are not equivalent

[NoImNotNineVolt]

That is absolutely not the case. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

I appreciate the contribution, but at no point was the conversation specific to information security. We were talking about security, or more specifically, computer security, a superset of information security.

The fundamentals of security are: Confidentiality - Integrity - Security.

I was about to commend you for the recursive definition, but noticed you had already beat me to it. Well, I'm currently employed in infosec R&D, and I haven't heard this confidentiality/integrity/availability trio prominently mentioned at any point. I'd imagine this is one of many ways to describe it. Privacy isn't relevant in all security contexts (stateless systems, for example), so I don't understand how it can be fundamental.

Re:Security and privacy are not equivalent

[Cederic]

If someone else can access your data outside of your control, it is not secure.

Whether that data is transient on a stateless system or carved 3 inches deep into granite is irrelevant.

Without control over the access to data you have no security. The confidentiality is the outcome of exercising that control.

If you can't understand this then you may be in the wrong job.

Re:Security and privacy are not equivalent

[bingoUV]

Yes, we are talking about security. The only post in the ancestry of your post that gave any context said "how you're less secure on".

So not only information or computer security - but inclusive of the security of the person operating / having his data stored on the said computing device.

Loss of privacy is a security vulnerability from that point of view - there are others but insecurity through low privacy is definitely one.

Re:Security and privacy are not equivalent

[NoImNotNineVolt]

Whether that data is transient on a stateless system

Data on a stateless system? Just so we're on the same page, we're talking about state, right? I can't understand how a stateless system, which by definition has no stored information at any given instant in time, has anything to do with the security of data which it doesn't contain. Can you elaborate on this point, so that I can better evaluate whether or not I'm in the wrong job?

Re:windows update is now malware chanel!

[UnknownSoldier]

/Oblg. old Windows Virus jokes:

Q: What's the difference between a virus and windows?
A: Viruses rarely fail.

and

Is Windows a Virus
------------------------
No, Windows is not a virus. Here's what viruses do:

1.They replicate quickly - okay, Windows does that.

2.Viruses use up valuable system resources, slowing down the system as they do so - okay, Windows does that.

3.Viruses will, from time to time, trash your hard disk - okay, Windows does that too.

4.Viruses are usually carried, unknown to the user, along with valuable programs and systems. - Sigh.. Windows does that, too.

5.Viruses will occasionally make the user suspect their system is too slow (see 2) and the user will buy new hardware. - Yup, Windows does that, too.

Until now it seems Windows is a virus but there are fundamental differences: Viruses are well supported by their authors, are running on most systems, their program code is fast, compact and efficient and they tend to become more sophisticated as they mature.

So Windows is not a virus.

It's a bug.

--
M$, Microshit, Microshat, Microshaft. Same shit, different OS.
When Windows 2000 ships with over 65,000 bugs you think it is any _less_ with newer versions??

Re:IE only?

[lhowaf]

I was kind of pissed when I first read the article (okay, the summary) but, it only applies to IE. So, no real impact at all.

And that was the last of the trust

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

Yes, this is the line they should never, ever have crossed.

You don't call something non-security a security update. Ever. You just don't.

I already knew a lot of people who haven't been routinely installing Windows updates for a long time because of all the junk Microsoft have been throwing in as "recommended". But at least until this week you could still trust that you should install security updates.

The scale of screw-up that crossing this line represents in terms of Microsoft's remaining credibility is staggering.

Re:And that was the last of the trust

[uolamer]

If people have not upgraded to Windows 10 by now they do not want to and are actively avoiding it, for whatever reason. Them pushing this out with a security update will do nothing but tick off those people and cause them to start distrusting even security updates at this point. The only reason this one didn't hit me is I have IE disabled in Programs & Features...

Re:And that was the last of the trust

[Stan92057]

Didn't Adobe and many others get crucified for trying the same thing years ago? Installing unwanted software in security updates

Re:sucks to be you..

[drinkypoo]

i have windows vista.. the BEST and LEAST ANNOYING windows version that hasn't been EOLd.

The only way in which Vista is better than Win7 is that they haven't bothered, to the best of my knowledge, to push telemetry out to it like they have 7. It has a bunch of serious performance problems, though, especially its ridiculous memory use.

corporate IT departments

[ThorGod]

I realize they've probably all got this sort of thing turned off across all of their deployments, but I can't imagine anyone in the industry not taking this as a sign to consider alternatives to MS

Re:Another patch worth avoiding

[Z00L00K]

Remove the quiet option or you won't know if it works or not. For me those commands didn't do anything until I removed the /quiet option.

Re:God I have come to loath micro$oft

[messymerry]

Yeah, kind of like Ubuntu 10.04 LTS. Now THAT was a great OS.

Turned off updates

[movdqa]

I have Windows 7 and Windows 8.1 desktops that I use minimally. I have turned off updates on both after running a long script that would turn off the Windows 10 crap but Microsoft keeps coming up with more so disabling updates is the solution. I will eventually upgrade one to W10 so that I'm familiar with it but it will still be minimally used. My MacBook Pro is the machine that I use for about 95% of work and play now. A friend of mine did get the forced W10 update and he's annoyed because it broke some stuff. I told him that it should have given him a chance to stop and that he should be able to rollback the upgrade - not sure what he's going to do.

Re:sucks to be you..

[arth1]

Wow, how low we have sunk when Vista looks attractive, hehehe.

Vista was always attractive - Windows 7 was pretty much a dumbed down Vista with fewer security warnings and less aggressive caching, to better support people who don't care and don't want to see warnings, had lower-end hardware (for the time that Vista came out), or rebooted often enough that aggressive caching caused more of a slowdown than speedup.

What's scary is that Windows Me looks good compared to Windows 10... Heck, even Clippy is better than the ad-tiles!

This works as well as any spam

[roc97007]

...that is, some people will click on it. The same people who click on the "your computer is infested with 352 viruses!!!!!" popups. (A friend's son takes every one of these literally. I'm getting sick of getting calls at dinner with "I've been hacked again!! I have 823 viruses on my machine!!")

Personally, this adds motivation to my attempts to get off Winders I have Mint up on the new machine, just figuring out what to do about my Windows-only apps. (A few don't work under Wine.)

"So why don't you just upgrade? It's free, you know." Yeah, I know. But I don't want to spend time trying to figure out where they've hidden the features I use this time, and all the tricks to make it less annoying. If I'm going to go through that much trouble, I might as well look at alternate operating systems.

And just as a personal thing, I don't like "live tiles". I think that was a huge mistake. At least with widgets, you had to choose to use them. They didn't just pop up all over the screen.

I love Windows 10

[melting_clock]

MS has created a huge incentive for more people to try Linux. Increasing the number of desktop Linux users will attract more commercial software which will eliminate the vendor lock-in that MS has enjoyed.

Friends and family were disgusted by Windows 8. Mostly, they just moved to Android tablets and stopped using their laptop/desktop Windows for all but that rare times it is needed. It is a little odd to see my mother using her Android tablet for just about everything but it works for her. They will even do things on the Android smart phones that used to require getting out their laptops. As someone that grew up when many people did not have a PC at home, and long before Android came along, it is amazing just how much general computing is being done without the need for a laptop or desktop computer.

I've been using Linux as my main OS for around 15 years, with Windows dual boot for some games. There has been a lot more interest from friends and family in Linux, particularly when they see me using KDE and how familiar it is to the good old Windows that MS ruined. For those used to older Windows versions there is a learning curve and putting that effort into learning Linux requires no more effort.

MS seems to be doing everything possible to kill Windows and they have my support in their mission.

Re:windows update is now malware chanel!

[UnknownSoldier]

LOL -- nice!

Re:Here's a screenshot. Fuck off.

[war4peace]

You're a fucking retard. This existed prior to Tuesday's patch. It's coming from MSN.com ONLY and it's because MSN.com reads your machijne OS and nags you with the update.
You would have known if you bothered looking it up. Or even reading this very thread.

I wouldnt install Windows 10...

[CanEHdian]

...even if Microsoft gave the full retail version away for free. Oh, wait. They are giving it away for free. And still people want to keep their nice Advanced Desktop User OS a/k/a Win 7.

Instead of trying to push W10 down our throats, why not bring back the Aero windowing environment complete with the "old" tools. So on tiny-screen finger-painting Surface tablets they can use W10 as it is now, and on our Mouse-And-Keyboard-And-Large-HiRes-Monitor we can use something optimized for that. "Desktop mode" in W10 is a joke (even with Classic Shell it still is aweful on a large monitor).

Re:Here's a screenshot. Fuck off.

[rsmith-mac]

Uh, that's an MSN thing. You get it when browsing MSN on any browser when using a version of Windows earlier than 10. Here's a Win8.1 VM with Firefox.

http://i.imgur.com/P3gSRGf.jpg

And there's an alternative banner type ad that MSN sometimes uses in place of the overlay ad. This is on Win 8.1 with IE11.

http://i.imgur.com/wB04p0b.jpg

Both of those are only occurring on MSN, on every browser, and without the most recent updates. It appears to just be Microsoft doing basic browser detection when visiting MSN.

Poor Quality

[GrahamCox]

Windows 10 is a poor quality operating system. It's surprising how many people appear not to have realised this.

Re:Another patch worth avoiding

[SEGT]

https://github.com/WindowsLies...

Re:Wake up, monkeys!

[Cederic]

Bitching about MS and Windows is a Slashdot tradition. It'll only ever end the same way bitching about SCO did.

Hopefully.

Re:GWX Control Panel blocks all the annoying promp

[Archtech]

shoulda, woulda, coulda...

If they (including I) hadn't installed Windows in the first place they wouldn't have the problem (IMHO)

Wow

[Rainwulf]

You fucking assholes. You are now actually worse then a lot of malware companies.

TOS trojan horse

[epine]

It ought to be made illegal to refer to accepting a fundamentally new TOS as an "upgrade".

Alternatively, it ought to be possible to click "I do not accept" on the new TOS and thus having made this tick mark never to see another "upgrade" suggestion that doesn't offer you a TOS you might actually accept.