IT Employees At EmblemHealth Fight To Save Jobs (computerworld.com)

Reader dcblogs writes: IT employees at EmblemHealth have united to stop the New York-based employer from outsourcing their jobs to offshore provider Cognizant. Employees say the insurer is on the verge of signing a contract with Cognizant, an IT services firm and one of the largest users of H-1B workers. They say the contract may be signed as early as this week. They fear what a contract with an IT services offshore firm may mean: Humiliation as part of the "knowledge transfer" process, loss of their jobs or a "rebadging" to Cognizant, which they see as little more than temporary employment. Many of the workers, about 200 they estimate, are older, with 15-plus-year tenures. This means a hard job search for them. The IT employees have decided not go quietly. "We're organizing," said one IT employee, who requested anonymity. "We're communicating with one another. They need the knowledge that we have. They can't transition [to Cognizant] without the information that we have. That puts us in a position of strength — they can't fire us for organizing; we're protected by the law," she said.

Comments

Refuse to transfer knowledge

[Anonymous Coward]

What's EmblemHealth gonna do? Fire 'em?

Re:Refuse to transfer knowledge

[E-Rock]

Other companies have made the severance package dependent on helping with the transition. They probably only need a few key people to break ranks and it all falls apart.

Re:Refuse to transfer knowledge

[toonces33]

Usually they offer a somewhat reasonable severance package that you only get if you agree to transfer the knowledge. That's about the only carrot they have, of course, but for many people it works.

Re:Refuse to transfer knowledge

[Registered Coward v2]

Usually they offer a somewhat reasonable severance package that you only get if you agree to transfer the knowledge. That's about the only carrot they have, of course, but for many people it works.

There is, however, a big difference between transferring information and knowledge. Information is "this is how you do X;" knowledge is 15 years of experience doing the job and knowing the pitfalls and how to negotiate them to keep things working. You can meet all the requirements of a severance package by transferring information without worrying about the knowledge. Besides, if Josephine is also losing her job does the newbie need to know to go to her if something bad happens, so she can get help from Bob, who is also now gone?

Re:Refuse to transfer knowledge

[Penguinisto]

Depends on the scope... and all it takes is for one key group of people (*nix sysadmins, say) to refuse and stand firm on that refusal.

Personally, if I worked for EmblemHealth, I'd be doing a couple of things right now:

1) start looking for another job - like yesterday.

2) dutifully record every last transgression made by the organization against HIPAA, SOX, and any other authority the organization is subject to. Then start sending emails to the uppers stating those problems, and asking for $$$ to fix it. Word them as if it's no big deal, but it really is a big deal, so as to give yourself a big cushion. Carefully record the expected refusals and store them offsite if you can. After leaving, blow the whistle, because odds are perfect they haven't complied by then if they hadn't complied by the time you left.

(and now for some fun ones, made mostly in jest, you understand...)

3) "Wow - for some odd reason I can't seem to locate all the really critical documentation! Where did it all go?"

4) carefully scrutinize every last labor law for the state. Do your level best to find transgressions against it (especially when it comes to discrimination laws)

5) as an extension to #5, record every spoken conversation, on your phone if you can. save the bits that could be construed as discrimination or suchlike.

6) "Training is going to take a lot longer than I thought..."

7) "I just got hired on to XYZ corp, but I won't start for a month. I'll be happy to transfer my critical knowledge at consultancy fees of $400/hr..." (just be damned sure you have that critical knowledge, have a job waiting for you, and that said knowledge isn't already documented somewhere).

8) carefully study the BOFH archives... see what you can put to use. ;)

Re:Refuse to transfer knowledge

[Lumpy]

Yep. wield the "Report the fuckers" hammer like it's going out of style. if you have ANY information of wrongdoing you release it to press and feds and do it anonymously so they cant punish you.

Re:Refuse to transfer knowledge

[Anonymous Coward]

I think many people fail to realize the Indians have already figured this strategy out.
They'll just come in and gut the current system and replace it with a new one. They
_expect_ the transfer to go very, very poorly. How else can they justify the purchase
of a whole new system to EmblemHealth. Come on, man -- you don't see this?
That's why we need laws to stop this, period!
Listen, it's not like there's a SLA involved between EmblemHealth and their clients, right?

CAP === 'keyword'

Re:Refuse to transfer knowledge

[hawguy]

Depends on the scope... and all it takes is for one key group of people (*nix sysadmins, say) to refuse and stand firm on that refusal.

If your refusal to do knowledge transfer prevents someone from operating a system you maintain, then you are very bad at your job. If a bus hit me tomorrow, any of my coworkers could pick up the systems I maintain using the documentation. Worse case, if a bus took out the entire operations team, someone from outside of the company would be able to use the docs to come up to speed.

If you've left such sparse documentation that no one can figure out how to maintain your systems, the company is better off without you.

Re:Refuse to transfer knowledge

[Anonymous Coward]

Then you work in a rare company where staff is doubled or tripled up. Many places hire exactly 2 fewer people than they should, and spread all of their jobs out pretty wide.

Almost every place that I've worked has been set up this way to save on costs. Generally people leaving under good terms will continue to get phone calls and emails for assistance for at least 2-3 months.

Re:Refuse to transfer knowledge

[lgw]

Other companies have made the severance package dependent on helping with the transition. They probably only need a few key people to break ranks and it all falls apart.

It's easy to measure whether an employee "transfers knowledge". It's very hard to measure whether they do it well. In every large system I've worked on, many inportant details about interacting with the system are "tribal knowledge", not written down, and not occurring very frequently, but hugely expensive for the first guy who figured it out. Simply not passing that along seems the minimum resistance to provide here, even if the labor action fails.

There's the stuff you document formally, that describes some ideal vision of the system, and that's certainly "knowledge transfer", then there's the sneaky details about how the system really works, the misleading error messages, the simple tricks that mysteriously work to fix complex issues and so on. I believe I'd run out of time before explaining those particular details. ... and it all falls apart.

Re:Refuse to transfer knowledge

[PraiseBob]

Conversely, if someone off the street can read some documents and perform your job with no specialized training, then your job must pay very close to minimum wage, and you're going to be replaced by a robot soon enough anyways...

Usually it isn't the case that nobody can figure out how to maintain the systems (eventually). But often the cost of getting replacement workers up to speed, and suffering potential downtime while doing so, is more expensive than keeping the existing workers.

Re:Refuse to transfer knowledge

[Anonymous Coward]

And that's the hammer they are being beaten with. If you do the right thing and document properly you can be outsourced easy as pie. This forces many more people in our industry to not do the right thing which makes it even harder for those of us that still do.

Of course sometimes it doesn't matter. I left copious amount of documentation and new IT department that came in after me refused to read it. They eventually got the owner to just create a new system based on technology they were comfortable because DFS is too complicated for them to figure out.

There are a lot of times where outsourcing makes sense, if you already have the people in-house to do it then it rarely ever makes sense. Accounting types can't quantify institutional knowledge so the quality of product often tanks.

Re:Refuse to transfer knowledge

[Anonymous Coward]

If your refusal to do knowledge transfer prevents someone from operating a system you maintain, then you are very bad at your job.

During one of my "knowledge transfer" sessions, in the middle of our XP to 7 upgrade, I explained how to launch a certain program as "Click start, programs, this folder name, and this program name"

So far so good, but a week later he asked the same question on a new Win 7 system.
I told him it was the same program, so "Click start, programs, this folder name, and this program name"

He instantly asked "What do you mean click start?" while I watched his mouse cursor wander aimlessly lost around the desktop in a desperate search for any icon with the word "start" in it.

The fact my replacement had no clue how Windows 7 worked right down to not even bothering to click the icon in the same place as XP kept the start menu, does not mean I am "bad at my job"

In fact every last thing pertaining to that first step of running a program he already used before WAS documented, but written to the audience of an IT person.

This represents no failure on my part despite your ignorant claim.

Re:Refuse to transfer knowledge

[mattventura]

Depends on the scope... and all it takes is for one key group of people (*nix sysadmins, say) to refuse and stand firm on that refusal.

If your refusal to do knowledge transfer prevents someone from operating a system you maintain, then you are very bad at your job. If a bus hit me tomorrow, any of my coworkers could pick up the systems I maintain using the documentation. Worse case, if a bus took out the entire operations team, someone from outside of the company would be able to use the docs to come up to speed.

If you've left such sparse documentation that no one can figure out how to maintain your systems, the company is better off without you.

And who controls the documentation? If the entire IT department simply locked away the documentation, they'd be SOL.

Re:Refuse to transfer knowledge

[haruchai]

There's probably plenty of crap you can find on the mgmt people.
A sales director from HP was presenting on their newfangled Big Data system at our offices last year and when he exited the Powerpoint, I noticed he had an Avengers torrent on his Windows Desktop.
Fuckin' noob.

Re:Refuse to transfer knowledge

[Joe_Dragon]

and that proves that they did not look for a qualified us based person or there pay level was so low that fast food was a better job for them.

Re:Refuse to transfer knowledge

[Anonymous Coward]

If your refusal to do knowledge transfer prevents someone from operating a system you maintain, then you are very bad at your job. If a bus hit me tomorrow, any of my coworkers could pick up the systems I maintain using the documentation. Worse case, if a bus took out the entire operations team, someone from outside of the company would be able to use the docs to come up to speed.

That's like your opinion, man.

How is that going to work out for you when the company hits YOU or your whole team with the bus?

I employed to do a job, not create a training course for others to do my job. I only document stuff that I need documentation for. That means anyone similarly competent can inspect the current state of the systems and figure out what is going on and how it all pieces together. That means that anyone incompetent that the company tries to replace me with hasn't got a shit show of taking my job, and I'll be called back 6 months later for consulting at a much higher rate.

A car mechanic doesn't produce tomes of how to repair your car when you send it in to get worked on. Fuck, he doesn't even fill out a maintenance log book, or if he does, you ain't getting a copy of it to give to your next mechanic.

A builder isn't going to prepare for you complete work plans at the start of a renovation job, so you can go down the road with them to his competitor and get them to do it for half the price.

Your idea of documenting yourself out of a job is ridiculous. Nobody sane and professional would do that; it just seems the IT industry is full of irrational amateurs who have no interest in self-preservation.

Re:Refuse to transfer knowledge

[ranton]

if a bus took out the entire operations team, someone from outside of the company would be able to use the docs to come up to speed.

Conversely, if someone off the street can read some documents and perform your job with no specialized training, then your job must pay very close to minimum wage, and you're going to be replaced by a robot soon enough anyways...

He never said someone with no specialized training could do his job. Someone would likely still need significant IT training and experience, he just wouldn't need knowledge of this specific implementation.

Any time I am doing a project one of my primary goals is making sure I will not be needed for any maintenance or enhancement tasks after project completion. This is so I have the flexibility to choose my next project without compromising my professional integrity by abandoning a crap implementation. If the only reason your company is keeping you is because you are the only one who knows how to do the same tasks over and over, then you are ripe for replacement. Valuable employees are valuable for what they can do for the company tomorrow, not what they did yesterday.

Re:Refuse to transfer knowledge

[0100010001010011]

How about someone with 4 years, give or take, of specialized study exactly in what you do?

Re:Refuse to transfer knowledge

[hawguy]

Depends on the scope... and all it takes is for one key group of people (*nix sysadmins, say) to refuse and stand firm on that refusal.

If your refusal to do knowledge transfer prevents someone from operating a system you maintain, then you are very bad at your job. If a bus hit me tomorrow, any of my coworkers could pick up the systems I maintain using the documentation. Worse case, if a bus took out the entire operations team, someone from outside of the company would be able to use the docs to come up to speed.

If you've left such sparse documentation that no one can figure out how to maintain your systems, the company is better off without you.

And who controls the documentation? If the entire IT department simply locked away the documentation, they'd be SOL.

You can't legally lock up resources owned by the company. You have to divulge passwords when asked by someone in authority. Otherwise, you could end up in jail.

Re:Refuse to transfer knowledge

[Anonymous Coward]

For the record, in the United States many of the actions you suggest are felonies.

Re:Refuse to transfer knowledge

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like you are so low on the totem pole that some off the street schmuck could replace your incompetent ass.

Re: Refuse to transfer knowledge

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, *nix sysadmins are not key. Any decent sysadmin, regardless of platform or employer, can reverse engineer a solution without the cooperation of the original implementer. Cognizant, however, just pass resumes, often without bothering to normalize fonts or writing styles. Liars, thieves, and greedy bastards.

Re:Refuse to transfer knowledge

[torkus]

Yes you do. However it's also not entirely black and white.

For one, if you're on strike, sick, or otherwise not working then you can defer until you return. Unlike how many companies treat people, you're not actually on-call 24/7/365 if they want or need something. The company could sue and obtain the password/information through the courts despite being out, though even that's not black and white.

Also, there's a difference between divulging existing passwords and intentionally locking up things. The second shows intent and is a crime.

Re:Refuse to transfer knowledge

[Penguinisto]

You can't legally lock up resources owned by the company. You have to divulge passwords when asked by someone in authority. Otherwise, you could end up in jail.

I agree... so when they ask, you simply post those user/password combos for them on Pastebin, as well as a complete list of servers/VPNs/etc. Problem solved...

(Why yes that would torpedo your career, but damn it would be a bright blaze of glory on your way out...)

Re:Refuse to transfer knowledge

[ranton]

How about someone with 4 years, give or take, of specialized study exactly in what you do?

Four years of experience working with similar IT systems should be enough to maintain any system I create. You used the words "specialized study", which sounds like just reading books or classroom instruction, which would most likely not be enough. Education is an important part of working in IT, but it does not replace actual experience. Usually when I hand off a product for others to maintain, the highest ranking person responsible for the actual maintenance (aka not management) is in their late 20's, so it doesn't take much time in the industry to gain the necessary skills.

But like I said, you shouldn't need to pay people $150k+ in the suburban Midwest (where I work) to maintain well built IT systems. You may need them to maintain horribly designed systems, but hopefully you are using them to build the next transformation of your technology stack. Any time spent resting on your laurels in this economy simply allows your competitors to overtake you in the near future.

Re:Refuse to transfer knowledge

[nmr_andrew]

No mod points today, or you'd get one. But I'm mostly commenting to point out that this isn't even specific to IT. I can certainly tell someone how to do most of what I do, but there are all sorts of tricks, optimizations, and background that are required to do it well.

Re:Refuse to transfer knowledge

[Coren22]

That's why we need laws to stop this, period!

This is already illegal, what other laws do you think will fix the situation?

Get Use To It

[Frosty Piss]

Get use to it. Without H1-B reform (not going to happen under Trump / Clinton) , unless you want to walk out now without "parting gifts", you will be training your replacement. Again, without H1-B reform, this will continue to be the "norm".

Re:Get Use To It

[Grishnakh]

First, H1-B reform isn't going to happen under Cruz (or Clinton). Last I heard, Trump was actually in favor of doing something about the H1-B problem, though he changes his mind so much it's hard to know what he'd really do.

Anyway, these IT employees might finally have gotten the right idea: unionizing. Yeah, right now, if you refuse to train your replacement, then you can just be terminated and not get that juicy severance package. That works just fine when you're eliminating only part of the workforce. When you're replacing them all, and then they decide to unionize and none of them will train their replacements, that strategy doesn't work: those IT employees have all the institutional knowledge, and the company is just going to fail without it being passed on. The company can certainly just terminate them all and have the replacements try to figure it out on their own, but good luck with that. It'd be funny as hell to see a big news report about a company like this doing just that, and then having to declare bankruptcy shortly after when the whole thing collapses.

Re:Get Use To It

[naris]

The H1-B reform that is heavily campaigned for refers to increasing the H1-B cap and loosening restrictions, which will make this even more "the norm" than it currently is.

Re:Get Use To It

[Anonymous Coward]

Get use to it. Without H1-B reform (not going to happen under Trump / Clinton) , unless you want to walk out now without "parting gifts", you will be training your replacement. Again, without H1-B reform, this will continue to be the "norm".

H1B reform MIGHT happen under Trump.

It WON'T happen under Clinton. You don't have $20 million to "donate" to the Clinton Foundation. Even if Hillary said she'd support H1B reform, would you believe her even for a millisecond? There's no money in it for her.

And all you Clinton apologists can wail, "SO'S EVERYONE ELSE!!!" And you'll be lying too. Please. Show us another national-level pol with the history of corruption that Hillary! has. Anyone who has anything like a $1000 investment with a trader that has dealings with the government somehow growing to $100,000 - go ahead, name 'em.

Re: Get Use To It

[Anonymous Coward]

This is already the norm. I'm a victim of this already. Wish them the best of luck and part ways. When you have all your stuff, secretly hope the go out of business. Good news is it only took 3 month this time to find a comparably job. Last time it took more than 7 months a year and a half ago.

Re:Get Use To It

[Anonymous Coward]

Trump is all talk and no action. If elected, a huge if, he'll just be a puppet. He's just a bunch of wind with a mouth.

Re:Get Use To It

[Frosty Piss]

Back in the 1980's the US Air Traffic Controllers went on strike, and Reagan fired them all with a prevision that they could not be rehired for many, many years. Jets still flew.

Re:Get Use To It

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you Cruzin?

Trump is the only one who even mentioned reforming the visa program.

Re:Get Use To It

[Frosty Piss]

What's your point?

What's yours? You need to work on following a discussion, and reading comprehension.

Re:Get Use To It

[Holi]

A long time? No banned from federal service for life.

And yeah no consequences from that at all:

"the FAA was faced with the task of hiring and training enough controllers to replace those that had been fired, a hard problem to fix as, at the time, it took three years in normal conditions to train a new controller.They were replaced initially with nonparticipating controllers, supervisors, staff personnel, some nonrated personnel, and in some cases by controllers transferred temporarily from other facilities. Some military controllers were also used until replacements could be trained. The FAA had initially claimed that staffing levels would be restored within two years; however, it would take closer to ten years before the overall staffing levels returned to normal."

Re:Get Use To It

[Anonymous Coward]

Reagan also deregulated the banking system

No, Congress did that. All Reagan did was ask them to. Congress could have told him to go pound sand.

Put the blame where it belongs.

Re: Get Use To It

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd say that speaks more to the skill of pilots flying at the time. It would be interesting to see a modern instance of a whole employment section of industry being rapidly replaced... oh wait.

Re:Get Use To It

[Penguinisto]

Two slight differences, though -

1) Reagan had a large pool of former military ATC folks who were able to practically jump into the job. PATCO didn't really expect that to happen.

2) Air traffic was a whole lot lighter back then.

Re:Get Use To It

[Anonymous Coward]

Reagan also deregulated the banking system which essentially has caused all the financial calamities that have followed, including the 2009 meltdown. What's your point?

BULLSHIT

''These two entities -- Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac -- are not facing any kind of financial crisis,'' said Representative Barney Frank of Massachusetts, the ranking Democrat on the Financial Services Committee. ''The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing.''

And

Barney Frank: What Housing Bubble?

Re:Get Use To It

[vivaoporto]

From the Wikipedia, emphasis mine:

On August 5, following the PATCO workers' refusal to return to work, Reagan fired the 11,345 striking air traffic controllers who had ignored the order, and banned them from federal service for life.

In the wake of the strike and mass firings, the FAA was faced with the task of hiring and training enough controllers to replace those that had been fired, a hard problem to fix as, at the time, it took three years in normal conditions to train a new controller.

They were replaced initially with nonparticipating controllers, supervisors, staff personnel, some non rated personnel, and in some cases by controllers transferred temporarily from other facilities. Some military controllers were also used until replacements could be trained.

The FAA had initially claimed that staffing levels would be restored within two years; however, it would take closer to ten years before the overall staffing levels returned to normal.

The only reason that was possible was because

1) the public sentiment was favourable to empty the power of what was perceived to be very corrupt institutions (the unions)

2) the government could get away with things the private sector would never ever be allowed, like using non rated personnel or military air controllers or taking 10 years instead of 3 to normalise the situation and

3) because you, the american people, was there to pick up the tab so no expenses would be spared to break up not only that union but the whole concept of collective bargaining, striking and fighting in equal footing for workers right.

For reference see what happened in the U.K, about the same time.

The situation is not very similar to the workers mentioned in TFA although the only thing they would get by unionise would be to get the company to declare bankruptcy and to reemerge with another name in the same geographical area, same business plan and most likely same portfolio of customers (but without the workers).

Re:Get Use To It

[Anonymous Coward]

Show us another national-level pol with the history of corruption that Hillary! has.

Go back to reddit, troll.

Re:Get Use To It

[parkinglot777]

H1B reform MIGHT happen under Trump.

Err, no it won't happen under any politicians who talk about it. The probability that it will not happen goes up higher when a politician talks more and make a big deal about the reform. I can't believe that there are so many people who never learn about how politicians are...

Re: Get Use To It

[kenh]

Are you talking about the repeal of Glass-Steagall? That was under Clinton Administration, not Reagan.

Re:Get Use To It

[Anonymous Coward]

It's going to happen even WITH H1-B reform. You know there's this "internet" thing people can use to "telecommute" to a job from anywhere in the world?

This commentary written from somewhere other than USA, while on lunch break on work for a USA company.

My suggestion to people with first world salaries and highly mobile jobs: move somewhere cheap and lower your hourly price. Or change jobs. Welcome to the competition your media has been spouting about for the last couple of decades!

Re:Get Use To It

[Anonymous Coward]

And now he's dead.

See how well that worked for him?

Re:Get Use To It

[ooloorie]

Again, without H1-B reform, this will continue to be the "norm".

This will continue to be the norm with and without H1-B "reform". The primary driver for outsourcing is that labor costs in other countries are lower. Prohibiting foreign labor to come to the US temporarily for training isn't going to change that. (And in this case, another driver is that we're trying to lower health care costs.)

Re:Get Use To It

[Anonymous Coward]

Get used to it because, even with H1-B reform, the eventual result is going to be offshoring. No need to bring the workers here when the work can go there.

Re:Get Use To It

[sconeu]

Q: How can you tell if a politician is lying?

A: His/her lips are moving..

Re:Get Use To It

[tnk1]

This doesn't have to even be about Hillary's personal corruption, really.

Any battle to try and stem the tide of H1-B has an uphill battle with the software and IT industry.

In some cases, H1-Bs are actually needed, although those individuals are actually paid identically to US citizens and don't really represent an issue.

But in other cases, they're abused to make large amounts of money in making citizens redundant. That is not something that business is just going to let anyone in office take away from them unless they have no way to stop it. They might first go to Hillary, but really all they need are some Congressmen on the right committees in their pocket and reform is as dead as a door nail. Those Congresspeople will be a mix of Republicans and Democrats from the right districts and be amusingly non-partisan.

Re:Get Use To It

[Anonymous Coward]

Show us another national-level pol with the history of corruption that Hillary! has.

Go back to reddit, troll.

I guess that means you CAN'T name any national-level pols with Hillary!'s documented history of corruption.

Re:Get Use To It

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

Riiiiiight. They went on strike over concerns of metal fatigue.

Every union lists tons of things, but only one is the real reason. The rest are negotiating gambits.

Re:Get Use To It

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

This is no joke. High level politicians all are experts, literally, at lying convincingly. They are a kind of sociopath in literally not caring what others think of them.

There was a recent study that showed outgoing people, far from being sensitive to others' feelings, were actually insensitive. It was the shy people who cared, too much, what others thought.

Politicians can lie convincingly because they don't care what you think. But they are awesome at telling you you and your feelings matter to them.

Re: Get Use To It

[Anonymous Coward]

Wrong. Both of you. The S&Ls were deregulated in 1980. By Carter.

Re:Get Use To It

[Anonymous Coward]

I am no Trump fan, but who would he be a puppet to? The Republican establishment has alienated him, so if he wins, they won't be pulling the strings. He's predominately using his own funds, so the special interest groups won't be pulling the strings. He's a Washington outsider, so they won't be pulling the strings. So who, pray tell, would he be a puppet for?

Re:Get Use To It

[Anonymous Coward]

Metal Fatigue - I think you missed the context..It was fatigue of the pilots working extra long flight shifts and beyond normal operations..Nothing to do with the metal

Re:Get Use To It

[DaveMikulec]

Yup. Went through this same shit at Lexmark back in '09 with the software dev department I was in.

Re:Get Use To It

[dcollins]

"Get used to it" is the correct grammar.

http://www.learn-english-today.com/lessons/lesson_contents/verbs/to-be-used-to.html

Re:Get Use To It

[Anonymous Coward]

DERPA DERPA DEMOCRAT DERP

Quality contribution there. Did you know that "subprime mortgage" is specifically defined as "mortgage not backed by Fannie or Freddie"? Fannie and Freddie insured ZERO subprime mortgages and had absolutely no financial problems at all until after the credit freeze when companies started shutting down and laying off hundreds of thousands of employees who had prime mortgages (and could afford them, until they lost their job?)

Even more BULLSHIT

Pressured to Take More Risk, Fannie Reached Tipping Point

Whenever competitors asked Congress to rein in the company, lawmakers were besieged with letters and phone calls from angry constituents, some orchestrated by Fannie itself. One automated phone call warned voters: “Your congressman is trying to make mortgages more expensive. Ask him why he opposes the American dream of home ownership.”

The ripple effect of Fannie’s plunge into riskier lending was profound. Fannie’s stamp of approval made shunned borrowers and complex loans more acceptable to other lenders, particularly small and less sophisticated banks.

Not only that, they lied about it:

SEC CHARGES FORMER FANNIE MAE AND FREDDIE MAC EXECUTIVES WITH SECURITIES FRAUD

The Securities and Exchange Commission today charged six former top executives of the Federal National Mortgage Association (Fannie Mae) and the Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation (Freddie Mac) with securities fraud, alleging they knew and approved of misleading statements claiming the companies had minimal holdings of higher-risk mortgage loans, including subprime loans.

...

"Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac executives told the world that their subprime exposure was substantially smaller than it really was," said Robert Khuzami, Director of the SEC's Enforcement Division. "These material misstatements occurred during a time of acute investor interest in financial institutions' exposure to subprime loans, and misled the market about the amount of risk on the company's books. All individuals, regardless of their rank or position, will be held accountable for perpetuating half-truths or misrepresentations about matters materially important to the interest of our country's investors."

...

"Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac executives told the world that their subprime exposure was substantially smaller than it really was," said Robert Khuzami, Director of the SEC's Enforcement Division. "These material misstatements occurred during a time of acute investor interest in financial institutions' exposure to subprime loans, and misled the market about the amount of risk on the company's books. All individuals, regardless of their rank or position, will be held accountable for perpetuating half-truths or misrepresentations about matters materially important to the interest of our country's investors."

...

Fannie Mae's executives also knew and approved of the decision to underreport Fannie Mae's Alt-A loan exposure, the SEC alleged. Fannie Mae disclosed that its March 31, 2007 exposure to Alt-A loans was 11 percent of its portfolio of Single Family loans. In reality, Fannie Mae's Alt-A exposure at that time was approximately 18 percent of its Single Family loan holdings.

One in five of Fannie Mae's loans were sub-prime.

Who's the derp now, derp?

Re:Get Use To It

[Dcnjoe60]

Back in the 1980's the US Air Traffic Controllers went on strike, and Reagan fired them all with a prevision that they could not be rehired for many, many years. Jets still flew.

Of course, none of the air traffic controllers walked off the job until all of the jets under their coverage were safely on the ground or transferred to other air traffic control zones. The public was never in danger from that strike any more than if pilots go on strike, the passengers in flight are in danger. Sure, something can go wrong, but the pilots still fulfill their obligation to the public until the plane is safely at the gate and the passengers disembark.

As for the jets still flying, the FAA grounded over 50% of all scheduled flights and 60% of smaller airports because of safety reasons. So, it would be more accurate to say that "some" jets still flew. Ironically, the price tag of what the air traffic controllers were asking for was around $770M. The government paid about 50% more than that, by the time everything was said and done and back to normal. So, while Reagan put the air traffic controllers in their place, it cost the taxpayer almost $400M more than if he had not done so.

Re: Get Use To It

[Dcnjoe60]

He's most likely talking about Garn-St. Germain Depository Institution Act of 1982 that led to the S&L crisis. Clinton merely leveled the playing field by deregulating the banks like Reagan did for the S&L industry. It just took a bit longer for the consequences of such deregulation to be realized.

Re: Get Use To It

[Anonymous Coward]

That's funny. Trump is the only guy to mention H1-B. Hillary is all corporate. She's even served on Walmart board of directors whole employees were trying to unionize. Where was Hillary to support the employees? She's a Republican n disguise.

Re:Get Use To It

[Dcnjoe60]

Riiiiiight. They went on strike over concerns of metal fatigue.

Every union lists tons of things, but only one is the real reason. The rest are negotiating gambits.

Actually, it is well documented that one of the primary concerns of the air traffic controllers was about mistakes being made because the job was high stress and long hours. They were pushing for a 32 hour work week without being required to do double shifts. Of course, they were also pushing for increased salaries and pensions.

The FAA agreed with the safety issues but would not implement the change because of the cost involved.

Re:Get Use To It

[Dcnjoe60]

Two slight differences, though -

1) Reagan had a large pool of former military ATC folks who were able to practically jump into the job. PATCO didn't really expect that to happen.

2) Air traffic was a whole lot lighter back then.

Ummm, of the 13,000 air traffic controllers who walked out on strike, only 900 were replaced by military ATC. While it is true that there were about half of today's domestic flights back in 1983, they also didn't have today's technology to deal with them. In addition there are more ATC staff today per flight than previously, so the workload per controller was significantly higher.

Re:Get Use To It

[Grishnakh]

While this is mostly correct, I have to question your conclusion about the company trying to re-make itself through bankruptcy. At the end of the day, a company's business which relies on IT operations actually happening needs IT workers to get those operations to happen. If all the workers are dumped through the bankruptcy-and-reemerging-with-a-new-name process, where are they going to get these workers? Hiring back the old ones who just unionized? Or just magically hiring a new bunch, or just outsourcing it all?

As I said before, these workers have institutional knowledge of how that particular company works. You can't just dump an entire IT department and replace it overnight with a brand-new IT department: every company's IT operations are different, and it would take quite a while for the new team to figure out how to get things working again. The new team would even have trouble just logging in to get started, since the old team would be gone and certainly won't be giving up their passwords; the top management probably has the main administrator passwords, but that's about it. At best, even with a highly competent replacement IT team (hahaha), they're still looking at a significant disruption to their business.

Re:Get Use To It

[Grishnakh]

Is that $770M the price tag for everything the ATCs were asking for, including everything on their wish list, or is that the price tag for what would have been a reasonable compromise that they probably would have agreed to? Unions (or any side in a negotiation really) always ask for the Moon and then compromise for less.

Re:Get Use To It

[Tablizer]

And all you Clinton apologists can wail, "SO'S EVERYONE ELSE!!!" And you'll be lying too. Please. Show us another national-level pol with the history of corruption that Hillary!

Okay, let's look at the practical options:

Cruz - He's been a corporate lackey his entire political career. You probably don't even have to bribe him to side with big biz; he's automatic.

Trump - He admitted he bribed just about everyone on the stage during one debate. That's corruption from the other angle, but still corruption. Plus his mouth may start WW3. H1B's are the least of your worries when you are fighting off radioactive zombies.

Sanders - Unlikely to get elected. The right-leaning voters will show up in droves to stop a self-proclaimed "socialist" (which may not be accurate, but that's besides the point.) Turn-out matters.

Kasich - I don't know his background well, but unlikely to get elected at this point. Will revisit in the off-chance he becomes a real option.

Thus, the likely nominees are all corrupt. And no, I'm not going to throw my vote away on a long-shot JUST to "send a message". That's not logical in my book.

Re:Get Use To It

[Dcnjoe60]

Is that $770M the price tag for everything the ATCs were asking for, including everything on their wish list, or is that the price tag for what would have been a reasonable compromise that they probably would have agreed to? Unions (or any side in a negotiation really) always ask for the Moon and then compromise for less.

That was the cost the FAA said the ATCs demands would cost.

Re:Get Use To It

[zabbey]

The racists who want to stop wonderful multicultural h1b immigrants from seeking a better life in the US at the expense of actual US citizen's jobs.

Re:Get Use To It

[Anonymous Coward]

A victory for Trump would help the populist cause.

It would help if people around here cared about America entirely instead of just their own hides (e.g. care about visa workers, but not illegal immigration; it's affecting everybody).

Re:Get Use To It

[Anonymous Coward]

Fannie and Freddy got into the subprime game late, for less than about 10% damage of what Wall Street did, and got spanked for it (because they weren't supposed to in the first place).

Wall Street got bailed out for a HUGE amount compared to Fannie and Freddie, and Wall St. invented the game.

Re:Get Use To It

[Anonymous Coward]

How can you be so fucking stupid as to claim that Trump, the only candidate who said that he'd reduce hostilities and GET OUT OF MULTIPLE WARS, would somehow be the cause of them?

Hillary has openly said that she wants to start a war with Russia.

Re:Get Use To It

[Anonymous Coward]

I would still fire them, just to teach them who is the boss

Re:Get Use To It

[Anonymous Coward]

You can't just dump an entire IT department and replace it overnight with a brand-new IT department

Of course you can. You might not get the old computer systems working overnight, or ever, but I've seen places go through this, and they basically dropped the config on all their routers and switches, replaced all the servers, reimaged all the desktops and laptops, got a very minimal business continuity system going with email, spreadsheets and word documents; and over the course of several months, ETL'd the data from the abandoned IT department's database systems.

In the end, it's a lot less efficient, but most companies non-IT staff are competent enough at the business that they can piece together an operational business without IT support. They don't NEED you, you just make things more efficient for a price. In some cases, the price of that efficiency is higher than its benefit, and it actually makes sense to dump IT and replace it. In the business I saw this happen, I was part of the outgoing IT team, and I'd say they made the right call, we were disgustingly inefficient, and they were better off without us. It made me rethink a lot of the way I do things, and more ruthlessly pursue efficiency over self-convenience.

Re:Get Use To It

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd only believe that if the companies in question were quite small.

Large corporations have an extensive inventory of apps from a variety of sources, both in-house and commercial. Without a lot of internal knowledge of how to keep them running, I wouldn't give most of them 5 days.

In fact, I can cite a certain very large and expensive software system that has been known to shut down Fortune company IT capabilities for an entire week while they struggled to get it properly integrated. Just that one system.

I've had companies contact me after I left because they desperately needed knowledge that I had. And that was just me leaving. Multiply that by a hundred or even a thousand. It would take a lot more than re-wiring the networks, doing ETL on the databases and breaking out the spreadsheets to get over that. Just setting up the ETL jobs alone would take weeks.

I once worked in a department where my boss told us that any one of us could probably shut the company down for an entire day in 5 minutes or less, and for some of the apps I supported, he was quite correct.

Re:Get Use To It

[Anonymous Coward]

Just stop buying *** products!

It's infested with spyware, encumbered with draconian laws and trade agreements based on dreams of strip-mining and enslaving others for the sake of currency concentration.

Re:Get Use To It

[Kazoo the Clown]

The difference is, with the traffic controllers, the FAA wasn't going to declare bankruptcy and go out of business because they couldn't train replacements fast enough. With EmblemHealth, that could be a different story.

Re:Get Use To It

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it'll be the same story. The government will prop the poor baby up with tax money until it can get back on its feet after the mean old workers picked on the poor defenseless corporation.

Re:Get Use To It

[Anonymous Coward]

The US ATC system hasn't been upgraded since that time (should be by 2019: http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Security-Industry/2016/02/05/FAA-taps-Raytheon-for-air-traffic-control-system-upgrades/2991454690186/).

There have been other attempts to upgrade, they just have ended in flames fuelled by millions of $10-$100 bills. This effort may not end at 100% replacement either...

Re:Get Use To It

[Rhys]

While the concept of unions seems okay, most of the implementations are corrupt power-grubbing monstrosities that long ago quit actually seeking to get the best outcome for the workers.

I think a better plan is living well within your means. If you can do that, while the severance is nice, you don't need it and thus it is easy to tell the company where to shove it if they pull crap like that.

I've got plan A down. Plan B remains on the table, unused. (Well, to be fair, I used a modified B where I didn't immediately quit but instead requested a transfer to a different department by applying to the only open position they had -- a 1 year contract spot. It ruffled some feathers, but got an internal full-time transfer offer. Not ideal, but good enough to let me change career direction while looking for a new job elsewhere in the new direction. Took 6 months, was all good (for me).)

I'm sure someone will come in and talk about privilege. That's fair, but isn't privilege a given since we're talking about an IT dept? They don't have a lot of salaries on glassdoor, but there are a couple sysadmin at 90k, network admin at 115k, and a single hourly sysadmin contractor at 40/hr. We aren't talking about people scraping by at min wage, we're talking about people who are overall being paid pretty well who don't apparently have a 6-month cushion tucked away.

Re:Get Use To It

[Anonymous Coward]

And people are still dying today due to that decision. Just more of Reagan's victims.

Re:Get Use To It

[torkus]

So, IOW, it would probably have cost a fair bit LESS than it did to fire them all.

Welcome to how our country runs. Firing IT staff and hiring H1B companies is a great short term solution for bumping up your stock price but in the long term it's just not viable for many use cases.

Re:Get Use To It

[Anonymous Coward]

Grishnakh, I agree with you. But want to add essential information: these workers are organizing BEFORE the contract is signed. This is exactly the time to organize and succeed!

BTW, I wrote about a successful organizing effort by IT workers in West Virginia. They did the same thing in 2009, if I recall correctly. I disagree vehemently with Frosty Piss. We don't have to "get used to it". This is sheer capitulation.

Donna Conroy
brightfuturejobs.com

Re:Get Use To It

[Tablizer]

Don says lots of things, often contradictory.

Re:Get Use To It

[Anonymous Coward]

Ooh look, it's an Internet Tough Guy TM. Gosh. Wow.

Re:Get Use To It

[Anonymous Coward]

nice troll, bro

Re:Get Use To It

[Anonymous Coward]

Last I heard, Trump was actually in favor of doing something about the H1-B problem, though he changes his mind so much it's hard to know what he'd really do.

Indeed, Tump no longer sees it as a problem:

http://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trump-h1b-visas-gop-debate-immigration-2016-3

Trump shrugged off the question and said he was in favor of the visas.

"I'm changing. I'm changing. We need highly skilled people in this country," Trump said. "And if we can't do it, we'll get them in."

Re:Get Use To It

[Grishnakh]

Well crap, that makes my Trump vs. Hillary decision a bit harder. I'm leaning more towards just writing in Bernie.

I really wonder why he changed his position here. Trump has been playing to nationalist and populist sentiments. Being pro-H1B doesn't help there at all, it's actually the reverse. It's only tech companies that are in favor of this, not anyone in Trump's base. Traditional Republicans are pro-H1B because they're pro-big-business, but Trump has not been like that. So what's his motivation here? Today's news of 11,000 layoffs at Intel with the intention of replacing them with H1Bs is going to add more fuel to the fire.

Re:Get Use To It

[toddestan]

Put the blame where it belongs.

And then after Congress passed the bill, Reagan signed it into law. So Reagan can absolutely be blamed for it, though he shares it with Congress.

Re:Get Use To It

[toddestan]

Actually, he's been pretty consistent with pushing the idea of an isolationist foreign policy. The thing is, if someone attacked the US, there would be holy hell to pay. As in nukes may very well start flying.

I'm drinking a Nespresso..

[Anonymous Coward]

Because I'm better than you.

Also, I don't recycle the pods. I just throw them in the trash.

good luck with that

[Anonymous Coward]

they really think reacting antagonistically is going to save their jobs?

Re:good luck with that

[Daemonik]

Why not, the company is acting antagonistically against them. The only people who benefit if the workers remain quiet is the company.

Re:good luck with that

[Tailhook]

they really think

It's more of a case where they're absolutely certain reacting cooperatively will not save their jobs.

Re:good luck with that

[Penguinisto]

This, right here... but only to a point.

Get too antagonistic and/or too loud in public, and you will suddenly find yourself rather blackballed when it comes to IT jobs in town...

Re:good luck with that

[ooloorie]

Why not, the company is acting antagonistically against them. The only people who benefit if the workers remain quiet is the company.

Actually, the primary people who benefit when expensive workers are replaced by cheaper workers are customers. That should be of particular concern in health care, where costs are through the roof.

Re:good luck with that

[Anonymous Coward]

That's cute - do you still believe in the tooth fairy? Prices for the consumer will not go down. Dividends for the shareholders will not go up. Share price will go down. But C*O compensation will soar.

Re:good luck with that

[Anonymous Coward]

"may be signed as early as this week" = Turn in your two weeks' notice now.

Why? Because then you won't be part of the hand-off crew. You get your two weeks and your exit package and you don't have to participate in training your replacement. If HR tries to get you to stay, simply refuse. State, for-the-record, that the toxic management and negotiation environment has heavily contributed to your decision to leave.

Prior to doing this, make sure to have cleared out your desk and exfiltrated any goodies that you wouldn't be allowed to take during your security-supervised clean-out and perp-walk out of the building that will immediately follow your meeting with HR.

Re:good luck with that

[budgenator]

In Healthcare insurance, the people you think of as the customer, are actually the product. The only people who will benefit are the C levels getting bigger bonuses.

Re:good luck with that

[ooloorie]

In Healthcare insurance, the people you think of as the customer, are actually the product.

Whether I am "the product" or not is irrelevant; I pay for my healthcare, and if it gets more expensive, I pay more for it.

The only people who will benefit are the C levels getting bigger bonuses.

Yes, with my money. Because of low information voters like you.

Re:good luck with that

[budgenator]

True but if it gets cheaper, you will not see a dime; you can't even opt out without the government fining you.

Re:good luck with that

[Anonymous Coward]

The last time I heard a story like this it was some California network engineer, and I'm pretty sure he ended up in a cell for withholding information in defiance of a court order. He also had his name plastered all over the place, making him a pariah.

Re:good luck with that

[Daemonik]

I have one response to your complaints about health care costs: For Profit Healthcare.

Do you think it's the workers who "forced" Martin Shkreli to raise the price of Daraprim 5,556 percent? Do you think it's the workers who paid congress to ensure Medicare can't negotiate drug prices? If you want to complain about rising health care costs, it's not the workers who are causing it, it's the selfish profiteering CEO's and the expectations of a stock market that stopped caring about investment over absurd ROI expectations of day traders and microsecond traders.

Re:good luck with that

[Kazoo the Clown]

That only works if you have another job in hand, as if you might need unemployment during the transition, you won't be getting it...

Re:good luck with that

[Kazoo the Clown]

Yes, you can expect to here this in interviews: "So you used to work for EmblemHealth? Wasn't that the company whose employees all refused to train their replacements?" (or started a union, or filed suit against the company, or whatever else happened)... That could kill off your employment in the entire industry. In fact, this could happen even if you decided to stay on and train your replacement, if enough of your co-workers decide to make a big stink about it and burn their bridges-- yours could get burnt as collateral damage...

Re:good luck with that

[ooloorie]

Do you think it's the workers who "forced" Martin Shkreli to raise the price of Daraprim 5,556 percent?

The reason Shkreli could raise the price like that is because the government granted him a monopoly.

Do you think it's the workers who paid congress to ensure Medicare can't negotiate drug prices?

Medicare could easily negotiate prices, it just chooses not to because government is in bed with drug companies and insurance companies.

it's not the workers who are causing it

Replacing expensive US workers with cheaper foreign workers when possible certainly does lower costs for companies. And why are US workers so expensive? Largely because government mandates make it so.

it's the selfish profiteering CEO's and the expectations of a stock market that stopped caring about investment over absurd ROI expectations of day traders and microsecond traders.

The beauty about free markets is that selfishness and greed are checked by competition. The reason that isn't happening in the health care market is because government has eliminated competition, by granting artificial monopolies, socializing costs, and standardizing the product.

So, you're right: workers are not to blame, bad government and selfish and greedy politicians are.

Re:good luck with that

[Daemonik]

The reason Shkreli could raise the price like that is because the government granted him a monopoly.

Okay, so you're insane. Good to know.

Medicare could easily negotiate prices, it just chooses not to because government is in bed with drug companies and insurance companies.

Medicate can NOT negotiate drug prices, as a matter of law. It is illegal for them to do so.

Replacing expensive US workers with cheaper foreign workers when possible certainly does lower costs for companies. And why are US workers so expensive? Largely because government mandates make it so.

Oh it lowers costs for companies, that will never pass those cost reductions on to you the customer.

The beauty about free markets is that selfishness and greed are checked by competition. The reason that isn't happening in the health care market is because government has eliminated competition, by granting artificial monopolies, socializing costs, and standardizing the product.

So, you're right: workers are not to blame, bad government and selfish and greedy politicians are.

Oh I wish I weren't an atheist so I could call you a God damn loon with more emotional meaning!

Re:good luck with that

[stealth_finger]

Why not, the company is acting antagonistically against them. The only people who benefit if the workers remain quiet is the company.

Actually, the primary people who benefit when expensive workers are replaced by cheaper workers are customers. That should be of particular concern in health care, where costs are through the roof.

Or what will happen is you get a bunch of people who don't know what they're doing replacing people who do, then sooner or later you're going to go in for a broken arm and come out with a rectal exam.

Re:good luck with that

[Rhys]

It works if you have a cushion, which at the salaries the IT types list on glassdoor for EmblemHealth, they should have.

Re:good luck with that

[ooloorie]

The reason Shkreli could raise the price like that is because the government granted him a monopoly.

Okay, so you're insane. Good to know.

Are you serious? Pyrimethamine itself costs a few cents per pill to manufacture, and there are dozens of manufacturers around the world. Why would someone spend $16000 for a drug if they can just mail order it overseas for a few dollars? Why isn't anybody making and selling those pills for $1/pill in the US, still making a handsome profit? There is only one reason: there are laws against it, laws whose only function is to create monopolies for big political donors. And who is responsible for creating those laws and regulations? The FDA and Congress.

Medicare could easily negotiate prices, it just chooses not to because government is in bed with drug companies and insurance companies.

Medicate can NOT negotiate drug prices, as a matter of law. It is illegal for them to do so.

So you agree then: when a government run program by law cannot negotiate drug prices, the fault is with government.

Oh it lowers costs for companies, that will never pass those cost reductions on to you the customer.

They pass it on to customers in competitive markets because they have to: if they don't, they won't be selling stuff. They don't pass it on in government regulated markets (cable, agriculture, healthcare, etc.) because they don't have to.

Oh I wish I weren't an atheist so I could call you a God damn loon with more emotional meaning!

You are a religious nut, you just don't know it. And like all religious nuts, facts and reason don't reach you.

Re:good luck with that

[ooloorie]

Or what will happen is you get a bunch of people who don't know what they're doing replacing people who do, then sooner or later you're going to go in for a broken arm and come out with a rectal exam.

You already get that, with high frequency. And paying Dr. Lexus or his IT department twice as much money won't fix it.

Take Your Vacation, Find A New Job

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't fight it. Let EmblemHealth get what they pay for.
Just make sure that you're not still around when the Yakov Smirnoff opens for the Spin Doctors at the Iowa State Fair shitshow begins.

Re:Take Your Vacation, Find A New Job

[jellomizer]

The problem is a bad IT Staff can still keep the company running. While a good staff if allowed can have the company expand and grow.

However the real question other than years of experience is their staff actually really good at their job?

Re:Take Your Vacation, Find A New Job

[Anonymous Coward]

^this... update your skills and get a new job as soon as you can - and leave them with no knowledge transfer. Doing this removes you from the victim state.

Re:Take Your Vacation, Find A New Job

[Anonymous Coward]

As much as I feel for those people, I wonder if they really do have the skills to get a job that they want.

Working in Healthcare IT has never struck me as a good idea. You're working with stuff that is often so old that your skill set doesn't get simply rusty over time, it actually starts fully pre-rusted on your first day. You actually have to regress your up-to-date skills to actually interact with it.

It's a shitty thing where you're caught between the rock of redundancy and the hard place of having to turn workplace over to union rules. I actually think they would be better off in the main with simply updating their skills and getting out of health care IT altogether.

Re: Take Your Vacation, Find A New Job

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes,.like any shop most of are good and we keep the pkace going...
(Emblemhealth IT employee)

Re:Take Your Vacation, Find A New Job

[0100010001010011]

I want to know what people have a 'hard job search' if they are that valuable. Companies poach 50+ y/o good workers all the time in our industry. People will retire and get rehired as part time because of their skill sets.

It makes me wonder if most of these employees are little more than warm bodies.

who does knowledge belong to?

[turkeydance]

those who paid for it? and will continue to pay for it until the transfer is complete?

Re:who does knowledge belong to?

[Anonymous Coward]

If it's encoded on my neurons, it belongs to me.

Re:who does knowledge belong to?

[ComputerGeek01]

You're dead wrong on that account. My employer pays for my time. I still own the knowledge and skill that I utilize in order to make that time worth anything. Just like when you hire a plumber, you don't own the tools that he brings to the job even though they are intrinsic to his employment.

Re:who does knowledge belong to?

[Moof123]

Skills you own. Specific company knowledge belongs to the company. So long as you are still drawing a pay check the company has rights to that specific knowledge. Once you leave the company still owns that intellectual property, but you have no obligation to help them any more. Most states are At-Will, so you have every right to simply quit at any time. You don't have the right to leave behind booby traps, malicious scripts, or similar destructive schemes. However if the company has a system that is a badly documented house of cards, you have every right to walk away and let nature take its course.

Also keep in mind that the world is a pretty small place. Word gets around. I expect that if these folks make it hard to get rid of them, they will find themselves black balled.

Re:who does knowledge belong to?

[Anonymous Coward]

Did the Company pay for School and training?
No? Then they own it as much as you own a Plumbers knowledge. Until they walk out the door.

Re: who does knowledge belong to?

[pant]

Essentially it belongs to no one. To be really old school slashdotty, if you have knowledge and share it with me, you still have the knowledge. Given these guys' tenure, they likely have a decent retirement set up to fall back on. I wouldn't train Someone to kill my job, though everyone has their price. A weeks pay for every year of my tenure? No. A couple of years' pay? I'd be a fool not to. Employers have had employees over a barrel for some time now. 20 years ago, everyone got a raise in the company, just because. Not because of any laws or anything. How many places do you think do that today? Hell, we don't even get the chocolate sampler anymore,(Those were actually quite good.) They even got rid of employee of the month in a facility with a few hundred employees. It's real hard to feel sorry for employers who are at a disadvantage in things that they think will make more money. And there is stuff that is not paid to learn stuff. "That router in this part of the building usually needs to be power cycled every month, but otherwise it's solid." "John Corproratate Director brings in infected usb's every once in a while, keep an eye on his traffic and gently warn him."

Re:who does knowledge belong to?

[qbast]

Here is a question that should help you answer yours: if you learned Java/c#/python/whatever at your previous job, are you allowed to use that knowledge in current one or does it belong to your previous employer?

Re:who does knowledge belong to?

[TheMadTopher]

You're dead wrong on that account. My employer pays for my time. I still own the knowledge and skill that I utilize in order to make that time worth anything. Just like when you hire a plumber, you don't own the tools that he brings to the job even though they are intrinsic to his employment.

It depends on your employment agreement. Google "work for hire" employee or contractor. There are some statutes and case law to protect employees, but they can be waived and most employment agreements will have you do just that. Word to the wise: Read every word of your employment agreement. And when a manager or someone in HR tells you "it's just a standard agreement" that means they have no idea what's in it, but the company paid an attorney to protect THE COMPANY as much as possible. That attorney wasn't paid to protect you. There is no such thing as a standard agreement.

Re:who does knowledge belong to?

[clodney]

Also keep in mind that the world is a pretty small place. Word gets around. I expect that if these folks make it hard to get rid of them, they will find themselves black balled.

If they go far enough that popular sentiment shifts against them and they are viewed as asshats, then there are indeed negative repercussions. But in most cases the front line hiring managers are no more eager to be replaced by H1-B visa holders than anyone else, and will likely admire people who had the ability to make an effective change.

Of course, if they really manage to stop it, they won't be looking for work.

Re:who does knowledge belong to?

[Anonymous Coward]

Define "paid for it".

I paid for my own education. My employer pays me for the time that I use that education for his/her purposes.

Who owns the following:

Server #3 never completes a reboot properly and should never be updated remotely.

This is something that most IT guys discover for themselves; should this be part of the hand off?

I can tell you that if I were leaving a place of my own accord, that information would be passed on. Even if I got fired for something that was my fault I'd probably pass it on. If the company is yanking the rug out from under me? Let the new guy figure it out the same way I did: By having to drive across the city to reboot it. Nobody left locally onsite to do it? Aww...tough titties.

Re:who does knowledge belong to?

[Anonymous Coward]

Black balled? You mean like finding jobs in an environment where people who are seasoned get discriminated against, jobs are shipped overseas and you're forced to train your replacements, and automation is taking out whole swaths of jobs? Please tell me how it's going to be worse when the only way to keep a company afloat is to resort to indentured servitude..which, let's be honest most H1-B work is.

Re:who does knowledge belong to?

[Anonymous Coward]

Fun fact about employment contracts. The worst they can do is fire you. Walk off the job without teaching someone else how to run the show, and there isn't fuckall they can do about it.

Re:who does knowledge belong to?

[DigiShaman]

Correct!. The fact the organization failed to have proper management in documenting that institutional knowledge is of ZERO consequence to the employees that have gained it during the contract of selling time and labor for a paycheck. I suppose there's some iffy stuff depending on a contract you've signed prior, like handing over passwords and whatnot. But aside from that, you can walk and they can do fuck-all about it. Not your problem. It's theirs for having a fucked up and dysfunctional organization to begin with.

The employees should be arrested

[Anonymous Coward]

They're only opposing this because they are racist hate criminals. These white employees need to be rounded up and put in camps. As a Progressive I support diversity and multiculturalism in white countries (except Israel) 100%. White people need to be destroyed. I'm ready for Hillary!

Re:The employees should be arrested

[Anonymous Coward]

Best laugh I've had all day. Thanks!

It sounds like...

[Type44Q]

It sounds like the upper management at EmblemHealth need a vigorous ass-fucking with a sharp stick. (No, really; I have it on good authority that that's actually a well-known folk remedy for greedy sociopaths.)

Re:It sounds like...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's the homeopathic way.

Re:It sounds like...

[bluefoxlucid]

Fun fact: If we brought back all the jobs from China, somewhere around 40 million Americans would need to become unemployed due to the consumer market not having enough money to support them; and our Welfare system wouldn't handle the load, so they'd just have to go be poor and die somewhere. The rest of us would live with less stuff--if we simply reverse the trend of the last 50 years, that "stuff" would be non-essentials and *healthcare*.

This is how we went from living in mud huts to living in sky scrapers with running water and medical care, kid. It's how we'll get to a life where all the poorest people live like the median income families ($54,000 currently), while the median income families live like today's upper class ($150,000-ish), and the rich people own their own moons and shit and we all whine about them.

Oh, and it's how it became financially possible (circa 2013, actually) to eliminate all homelessness and hunger in America *without* large tax raises (I'm still under 45% on the top even with the high cost of transitioning; and the small 1%-3% I project can be diffused by slowly rolling out my middle-class tax plan, which is so fucking strong that a person with an $80,000 salary takes home more than $80,000 in total).

I only want these types of layoffs to come slowly--0.1% or 0.5% or such of the population losing their jobs per year. Imagine if we switched onto automation all over the place in 3-5 years, and laid off 50% of all American workers. Imagine. Do you know what kind of damage that would do? If we transitioned slowly, over 2-3 DECADES, we'd all wake up to find we're spending 70% of our income on bullshit like Xbox, and 30% on food, clothing, healthcare, our homes, etc, after a period of unemployment somehow rising by 1%-2%, then falling again.

People have such small minds.

Re:It sounds like...

[Anonymous Coward]

This is 100% made up bullshit with some extra made up shit for flavor.

Too late.

[Anonymous Coward]

They're organizing ? LOL. You can bet your sweet bum that until they heard of the plan to outsource their jobs those people were your typical IT libertarian type. You know the kind. They're the ones spout the typical "unions are useless, I make my own luck" comments on /.

Re:Too late.

[Seranfall]

Some unions are worthless. There are many that are corrupt. I was a member of a teaching union and watched how they threw adjuncts under the bus to help tenures who only made up 25% of their membership. Their main goal seemed to be to create conflict between the faculty and administration. They would support you if you ever had an issue with administration but pretty much not in any other way.

Re:Too late.

[Anonymous Coward]

They're organizing ? LOL. You can bet your sweet bum that until they heard of the plan to outsource their jobs those people were your typical IT libertarian type. You know the kind. They're the ones spout the typical "unions are useless, I make my own luck" comments on /.

As a libertarian I have no problem with what they're doing. A libertarian believes people should be as free as practical. Therefore, anyone who wants to form a union should be free to do so, so long as the association is voluntary. The right to peacefully assemble is written into the First Amendment.

As a libertarian, I would only have a problem with it if an employee was forced to join the union against their will (say, as a condition of employment or receiving benefits, or if any sort of intimidation/coercion was applied). Barring that, I say more power to them. They simply realized that it's hard to bargain against the resources of a large corporation when you have only the resources of a single individual. This is their response to that reality. It's not the only available response, but it's the one they freely chose.

Why again would I have a problem with that? And what's the alternative - using state power to stop them by force or threat of force? If you knew anything about libertarians you'd know they are strongly against doing that in any situation that involves only consenting adults. Methinks your problem is with Rush Limbaugh, or maybe some imaginary straw man that lives in your mind. Protip: seek to understand something before you decide to be against it, it's a useful life skill.

Organising won't win this one

[thegarbz]

The power of a union comes in backing up the fight of the small people.

When you're talking about the wholesale disenfranchisement of a workforce then it is completely irrelevant if they are unionised or not.

Re:Organising won't win this one

[Lumpy]

Which is why not one union person should trust a fucking cop. Every state where they busted unions they gave the cops a pass so they would be the goons. The cops stood up and protected the politicians against their union brothers.

Cops are fucking scab goons, dont trust the fuckers, dont give them any respect, They are scum.

Re:Organising won't win this one

[guises]

Some of the power of a union also comes from the government - striking is a legal action which a union may take, and retribution from the employer is limited by law. It's all very complicated, and I don't know squat about it, but New York is not a right-to-work state so unions still have some rights there. It's possible that these people might have some ability to resist what their employer is doing.

Re:Organising won't win this one

[pnutjam]

see "cossacks"

Change passwords

[zerosomething]

Change the passwords for all the systems you manage and take a few sick days.

Re:Change passwords

[Moof123]

How did that work out for Terry Childs? Admittedly he did a more extreme thing than that, but the sentiment is roughly the same.

I applaud the sentiment these folks have, but I expect they will barely slow down the wood chipper as they pass through. They are a lot more expendable than they realize, and it will barely cause a hiccup in operations.

Re:Change passwords

[eth1]

They are a lot more expendable than they realize, and it will barely cause a hiccup in operations.

Any one person is expendable, but not an entire IT department at once.

I've worked for places where it would only take a day or two of IT striking to run the place out of business. Another issue is that you can't easily bring in strike-breakers, because they won't have any access to the systems.

Re:Change passwords

[budgenator]

You typically don't have to go that far, there isn't much you can do on a windows based systems admin wise any more without somebody physically typing in passwords or clicking "allow" on-site. HIPPA is no joke and you can't have EOLed operating systems; so they have to put up with the new windows security measures.

Re:Change passwords

[Anonymous Coward]

You can easily replace an entire IT department if it is either underutilized or undergoing a major upgrade (cut current staff, bring in new staff with the new system skills).

You are not going to get paid $100k+ for doing what a 12 year old can do (and yes, a 12 year old can manage an Oracle database successfully enough to keep it up and "not slow").

The average (American, at least) VP / Manager only wants it to work. Being secure, efficient with resources (beyond being "usable"), and streamlined is a Cadillac solution for a business that doesn't have IT as its primary business area. This is why data breaches are common, and why no one cares (there are no legal damages to customers so minimal reason to invest in risk mitigation).

Next complaint please.

Monkeywrench the replacement training

[swb]

Why not just monkeywrench the replacement training?

Train them wrong. Give them incomplete information. Be anti-social. Make a game and see how long you can go answering only yes or no. Basically make the training as empty and useless as possible. Waste time on useless details. Take long shits.

Obviously, no active sabotage, that would be a problem. But who says you have to be any good at the training?

Re:Monkeywrench the replacement training

[Tablizer]

Give them incomplete information. Be anti-social...Take long shits...

How is this a change?
   

Re:Monkeywrench the replacement training

[Seranfall]

You could potentially get yourself in legal trouble if you actively try to sabotage the new workers in that way. Teaching someone else to do something wrong that damages the company on purpose isn't much of a stretch from you doing the damage yourself.

Re:Monkeywrench the replacement training

[CAIMLAS]

Do you really think that will matter?

Let's say you train them perfectly.

They're still only the top quarter of the bottom quarter of the barrel, in terms of ability or skill. The company may luck out and get a couple who are competent, but in all likelihood these people will be "experts" in a dozen technologies which typically take years to gain familiarity with. This goes doubly so if they're Indian, due to the Indian culture of hopping jobs after 3 months for a managerial position at twice the pay.

It's like trying to pour a bucket of water into a cup. Only so much is going to go in the cup, and the rest is going to go on the floor. You're still going to have a mess.

At the end of the day, you're not really changing anything. That person is going to likely move onto another job sooner than later, if they can - it's a job with shit pay, with no advancement possibilities, and they are way under qualified for it to boot. They're going to want to get to a position where they can baffle with bullshit as quickly as possible. The company is obviously navel gazing and cost-focused: quality is not a part of the picture. They'll go through several iterations of cuts and even mergers until the "company" ceases to exist, unless they realize the folly of their ways and reverse course.

Re:Monkeywrench the replacement training

[tlhIngan]

Why not just monkeywrench the replacement training?

Train them wrong. Give them incomplete information. Be anti-social. Make a game and see how long you can go answering only yes or no. Basically make the training as empty and useless as possible. Waste time on useless details. Take long shits.

Obviously, no active sabotage, that would be a problem. But who says you have to be any good at the training?

True, unless you've been hired to train people, you don't necessarily have that as a skill.

And depending on how things are, you might sabotage them by not letting them ramp up. Toss them to the flames - tell them what to do quickly and in the time limit. If something takes you 15 minutes to fix, they have 15 minutes. You'll point out what they need to do, but you won't wait for them to absorb it. If you ever watched Undercover Boss and how the guy never has a chance because he's expected to know it from the get-go, that's the idea.

And if they're too slow, they can learn by watching you do it. No one said they had to learn by doing, they can learn by observing. And if you do it in 15 minutes, so much the better if they don't have time to write notes. And of course, you hurry them to the next task so they don't have a chance to write it down.

And we know studies have shown you only retain about 10-20% of what you see...

Re:Monkeywrench the replacement training

[Anonymous Coward]

> Why not just monkeywrench the replacement training?

Because this is not about fucking over the company, it is about keeping their jobs. Silently making the replacements incompetent still means you get replaced.

Re:Monkeywrench the replacement training

[HornWumpus]

Julian?

I knew a dude who, whenever he started drinking, would preach the gospel of 'Always shit at work, take your time, last year my boss paid me $10k for shitting, I'm always holding it on the drive in...'

Re:Monkeywrench the replacement training

[Joe_Dragon]

What about taking a long time to go over the basics even more so if the replacements don't even have a good working of that.

Re:Monkeywrench the replacement training

[infinite9]

My vote is for active sabotage. Seriously. IT workers should get together and make an example of one of these companies. If enough of them did it, there would be no proof of who did what left to prosecute. Just like the guy who deleted all the websites the other day. One person "forgets" to unmount the backup directories, another makes a dangerous mod to a script. Maybe someone "accidentally" adds neodymium coin magnets to backup tapes. It would be a shame if that credit card database ended up on tor.

Seriously, stop bending over and taking it. Throw a wrench into the machines. Fight back. If you don't, you'll end up a slave.

Re:Monkeywrench the replacement training

[swb]

For one, they would talk up charging multiple people with felonies and then start plying them with immunity to flip. A few would flip, the ringleaders would get fingered and would be prosecuted on Federal charges in a very public trial to set an example.

Even if that didn't happen, there's nothing stopping the company from filing multiple civil lawsuits. And again a few would break ranks and the rest would get ruined financially.

The establishment would never tolerate an act of group sabotage like that. It would expose how dependent they are on IT support. There would be a lot of fear that it could happen again. Talk of systemic risk to the economy. New Federal laws proposed making not training your H1B a felony. It'd be awful.

Re:Monkeywrench the replacement training

[Joe_Dragon]

New Federal laws proposed making not training your H1B a felony. It'd be awful. Well the one up side will be feudal prison (there doctors are better then state)

A Bit Late, Isn't It?

[Anonymous Coward]

Missed it by 4.5 years. Probably should have had the medical professionals instead of IT working on it as well.

right, but...

[JustNiz]

>> "they can't fire us for organizing; we're protected by the law," she said. ...but if its a "right to work" state they can legally fire you for any bullshit reason or even not give a reason.

Re:right, but...

[Moof123]

And you can still get fired before your last day and miss out on severance. Without decent worker protections it is usually better to keep your head down and take whatever crumbs they feel like handing you on the way out.

Re:right, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

>> "they can't fire us for organizing; we're protected by the law," she said. ...but if its a "right to work" state they can legally fire you for any bullshit reason or even not give a reason.

It's 2016, are people really still legitimately confusing "right to work" with "at will" or is this just low effort trolling?

Seriously, you can quit at will, they can figure you at will. Whenever you want, whenever they want. How hard is it to remember? Right to work has nothing to do with it.

Re:right, but...

[JustNiz]

Thats exactly why I put it in quotes. get it?

Re:right, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

> they can figure you at will

Always pleasant when somebody is in such a rush to chastise other people for misuing words that they can't get all the words right themselves.

Re:right, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

They could fire a couple of them for bullshit reasons, but if they fire all of them it'll be trivial to convince the court why they were really fired. You always have the option to sue. Well, as long as your contract doesn't say otherwise :'(

Re:right, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

"At will" can be fired for anything. Not "right to work".

Too late, he's already dead.

[Anonymous Coward]

RIP Steve and stay that way.

what Trump is, and isn't

[Lead Butthead]

Trump is a businessman, that means he steer clear of unprofitable ventures. His actions are dictated by what is profitable, FOR HIMSELF.
That means his position shifts when it'll help him reach his goal. I don't see H1B reform being one that will net him profit.

Re:what Trump is, and isn't

[Anonymous Coward]

even if trump did push for reform, how the heck do you think he would get it past congress?

even his own party doesn't exactly like him.

Re:what Trump is, and isn't

[__aaclcg7560]

Trump is a businessman, that means he steer clear of unprofitable ventures.

Four business bankruptcies later...

Re:what Trump is, and isn't

[fluffernutter]

Also there is the fact that he already takes advantage of H1-B rather than, you know, actually demonstrate his commitment to the cause. I don't vote for people who talk the talk but don't walk the walk.

Re:what Trump is, and isn't

[Anonymous Coward]

Four out of how many successes? What's your average?

Re:what Trump is, and isn't

[__aaclcg7560]

Four out of how many successes? What's your average?

OP mentioned that Donald Trump knows how to avoid unprofitable ventures. Four business bankruptcies later means that Trump is no better or no worse than any other entrepreneur. Even Abe Lincoln had to file for bankruptcy when his partners abandoned him and left him stuck with a grocery store.

Re:what Trump is, and isn't

[Anonymous Coward]

even if trump did push for reform, how the heck do you think he would get it past congress?

even his own party doesn't exactly like him.

Presidential Executive Order baby.

Re:what Trump is, and isn't

[Dcnjoe60]

Trump is a businessman, that means he steer clear of unprofitable ventures. His actions are dictated by what is profitable, FOR HIMSELF.
That means his position shifts when it'll help him reach his goal. I don't see H1B reform being one that will net him profit.

So he is like any other politician, then.

Re:what Trump is, and isn't

[AuMatar]

4 out of all but 1. None of his businesses have been a great success, most of them have failed. The only one that's worked really well is his TV show.

Re:what Trump is, and isn't

[Dcnjoe60]

Trump is a businessman, that means he steer clear of unprofitable ventures.

Four business bankruptcies later...

I don't think Trump would make a good president, but as a businessman, why would you not use a government provided means to get out from under your creditors. To not declare bankruptcy when cash flows can't keep up would be the stupid move. As for the OP's position that he steers clear of unprofitable ventures is dead wrong. Trump, like every other venture capitalists throws money at numerous projects knowing that many are not going to pan out. No one project needs to pan out as long as those that do cover the cost of those that don't. That's how venture capitalists work.

Re:what Trump is, and isn't

[mwvdlee]

So basically you've never voted in your entire live and never will? ;)

Re:what Trump is, and isn't

[fluffernutter]

Let's just say I have a lot of trouble.

Re:what Trump is, and isn't

[Anonymous Coward]

Bernie talks the talk and then walks the walk. He's long been apart of Vermont doing things that hurt financially but boost quality of life. That's why Vermont is pretty expensive to live in but your quality of life is usually pretty darn good. I saw that after growing up there and then moving to Arizona. At the time I didn't know how good the state was, nothing real to compare it to. Being in Arizona where they are actually contemplating selling land to pay for education because they can't get people to agree on a tax increase to pay for better than last place.

Re:what Trump is, and isn't

[fustakrakich]

This is a guy who profits by welshing on his contracts and filing for bankruptcy. He's a businessman, just not one I would ever hire or consult.

Re:what Trump is, and isn't

[spitzak]

No fan of Trump, but he certainly is not doing "what is profitable for himself". As a business decision running for president is a really stupid idea so he is obviously not making decisions based on what makes him the most money.

He does want to feed his ego, which is going to be a lot less predictable than "what makes Trump the most money".

Re:what Trump is, and isn't

[Anonymous Coward]

Trump didn't lose any money personally, He became wealthier with each bankruptcy by abusing the system to the fullest. Hell I'd do it to.

Re:what Trump is, and isn't

[Anonymous Coward]

If a businessman has $20 million or more invested in a $300 million project with other investors, and they pull out because the economy tanks, what is he supposed to do liquidate all his personal assets and go broke, too? That's silly. Of course they would use Bankruptcy laws to protect themselves. That's why Trump is a billionaire, and you're not.

Re:what Trump is, and isn't

[__aaclcg7560]

That's why Trump is a billionaire, and you're not.

Your comment makes no sense. Filing for bankruptcy is a constitutional right (Article I, Section 8, Clause 4). I exercised my constitutional right for chapter seven bankruptcy in 2011 after being out of work for two years (2009-10). In fact, during the trustee hearing, another person was on his fifth business bankruptcy in 50 years.

Re:what Trump is, and isn't

[Coren22]

I wish I could fail that badly than. Estimates of turning $40 million into between $2.5 billion and $10 billion depending on who you talk to. I wish I could fail so badly, I'd even take the $40 million, though I know it would be hard.

But in reality, not 4 to 1, 4 to thousands. He doesn't have a single business, he has thousands of them, and some were bad investments, but that happens in business. creimer is just jealous and feels the need to bring up the bankruptcies on every single mention of Trump.

Take the money and do a half-assed job training

[Anonymous Coward]

Just take the severance and do just enough to not get fired. We IT workers will soon face the same problem manufacturing workers did, and how well did unionizing work out for them? If US companies are prevented from accessing lower cost labor, then foreign companies will just out compete US firms and we'll lose the jobs anyway. The trick is to move into positions that aren't easy to outsource.

Guaranteed Outsourcing

[SuperKendall]

One way to be sure your job will be outsourced is to form a union and threaten your employer.

Now that they realize the IT staff may well gang up on management, why wouldn't management be inclined to have more pliable employees?

Even if it means no outsourcing initially it could easily mean hiring freeze and just let existing IT shrink naturally as outsourcing replaces people one by one...

On a side note, being someone who worked at a company for 15+ years does not HAVE to mean a hard job search, if you have been keeping up your skills. Why should we have sympathy for IT workers who put themselves into a position where it's now hard to find a job just because they didn't want to put the work into continuing education?

Re:Guaranteed Outsourcing

[Anonymous Coward]

They already know they're being outsourced as soon as it happens; the official word is just never given until you're in the middle of training someone who'll be making a tenth your pay.

Now that they realize management has decided to get less expensive and more pliable employees, why wouldn't they gang up on management?

Why should they kowtow to someone for stabbing them in the back?

Good Luck to Them

[dave562]

For at least the last decade, people have been half heartedly making the occasional comments about unionizing the IT workforce.

I hope that the EmblemHealth employees are successful. It is tough to compete in a global economy, but IT is one of the few professions where there is a serious shortage of qualified talent. If the qualified talent refuses to train their replacements, then those replacements are worthless.

Of course, over the next few years a good portion of the sysadmin skill set is going to be automated so this is very much too little, too late. When you have a team of half a dozen people who can manage thousands or tens of thousands of VMs in AWS or Azure, those 100+ person IT departments start looking bloated.

Also putting pressure on the traditional IT skill set is the continuing downward pressure on hardware costs, BYOD and VDI. There is no need to have a legion of desktop monkeys doing end user support when an organization can rapidly re-deploy hardware and shift applications in real time via virtualized desktops.

As more and more application vendors outsource their support functions and take on the support burden as part of the yearly maintenance cost, the need for in house IT staff will continue to shrink.

There is a lot of M&A activity in the healthcare field right now, and a couple of key vendors are bubbling up to the top of the pile. Within a decade I think we are going to see standardization around a couple of SaaS type platforms. Given all of the data breaches that are going on, individual hospitals and healthcare organizations cannot continue to eat the risk of storing all of that data in house.

Re:Good Luck to Them

[Anonymous Coward]

I work for a Blue Cross affiliate which is in the middle of its second attempt to outsource the benefit management and claims processing to another Blue Cross. The problem is that health insurance has fairly small margins, and the cost to just keep up with the state, federal (and in our case, Blue Cross Association) mandates eats up most of our IT budget. A few years ago, one of those IT advisory companies released a report indicating that smaller health insurance companies were getting killed by economies of scale in order to keep up with all those mandates (like 5 times more expensive per member per month than that of the big guys like United Health Group), and that the little guys either need to partner up with other health insurance companies (i.e., outsource processing), merge or get bought out, or they will end up getting priced out of the market.

Re:Good Luck to Them

[DigiShaman]

I say this wholeheartedly and with clarity. Given the level of globalization, consolidation, and wealth transfer from Western nations to the BRICS, that leaves vast swaths of people unemployed. If not already, it will lead to civil unrest if not outright serve as a catalyst for regional conflict and, dare I say it, WWIII. I don't claim to have the answer as to whether something should or shouldn't be done. But given the current trajectory of what *is*, it's clear where humanity is headed.

Let that sink in for a moment.

Re:Good Luck to Them

[dave562]

We are already in WW3. "They" are just waiting until after the election to break the bad news to everyone who is not yet getting their information from sources other than major news outlets.

The irksome thing about the whole situation is that it could be avoided. The money (read production capacity and labor hours) that will be spent on weapons to kill each other could easily be diverted into infrastructure projects like energy, agriculture, sanitation and transportation. There is no reason, other than the status quo and those in charge who want to maintain their grip on power, that the "Third World" cannot enjoy a significantly better quality of life over the next two generations than their ancestors have ever known.

Save Jobs?

[Anonymous Coward]

You can't save him. He is already dead.

Those 2% raises don't add up over time...

[__aaclcg7560]

Many of the workers, about 200 they estimate, are older, with 15-plus-year tenures. This means a hard job search for them.

As an IT support contractor who works one day to one year per assignment, I hate dealing with people who has been around forever in the IT department. They think that being a contractor is a novelty, joke about getting laid off and taking a six-month vacation on unemployment benefits, and have no clue what they're worth in the job market. The worst part is that all their knowledge is inside their heads and not documented anywhere else. I had two friends who ended up working at drug stores because they fell into this trap, took a six-month vacation and discovered that no wanted to hire them with obsolete job skills. Because they stopped learning after they got out of school, they couldn't change their circumstances and settled for less.

Re:Those 2% raises don't add up over time...

[Anonymous Coward]

I am in the same boat as your friends. My last day was a week ago. I was making 150k a year. In the area I live in I will be lucky if it is 80. Luckily I saw the writing on the wall and saved like mad and paid off anything that had debt associated to it. I now can move pretty much anywhere I want. Which is a plus. But if you need a win32, MFC, c++, T-SQL, with a bunch of linux stuff I am your guy.

Re:Those 2% raises don't add up over time...

[fluffernutter]

The thing is.. I'm not really clear on what IS a job skill that is in demand.. I could spend the next year learning everything about Java, but when my training is done if there are no Java jobs that are better than the job I had before then I have done myself a disservice. Plus people should be able to live to work not work to live. If I have to spend all my personal time learning things for the next job then there isn't much point being in technology at all.

Re:Those 2% raises don't add up over time...

[Anonymous Coward]

Ahh the wet behind the ears kiddies that cant do basic jobs thinking their Microsoft Cert is worth something...

How cute.

Re:Those 2% raises don't add up over time...

[__aaclcg7560]

If I have to spend all my personal time learning things for the next job then there isn't much point being in technology at all.

That's the decision my friends made and they're still working as drug store clerks 15 years later, throwing away a BS in Computer Science degree because investing in themselves and their future was too much work .

Re:Those 2% raises don't add up over time...

[jittles]

Plus people should be able to live to work not work to live. If I have to spend all my personal time learning things for the next job then there isn't much point being in technology at all.

This exactly. LinkedIn has been bugging me for about two months trying to get me to go for a third round of interviewing. They gave me this giant (it is a 2 page list individual topics) study guide and expect me to regurgitate information from it for a 5 hour interview. I already have a job and a great boss. Why would I want to spend my free time studying information that I can look up in 5 seconds just so you can decide whether or not you want to hire me? I have more important things I would rather do with all that time. I don't even want to sit through a 5 hour interview. I've been there and done that. They have one or two people interview you at a time and they always ask the same questions over and over again. What a great way to waste a day of vacation.

Re:Those 2% raises don't add up over time...

[__aaclcg7560]

Ahh the wet behind the ears kiddies that cant do basic jobs thinking their Microsoft Cert is worth something.

If you're referring to me, I'm 20+ years into my career and MS Cert was 15 years ago.

Re:Those 2% raises don't add up over time...

[David_Hart]

The thing is.. I'm not really clear on what IS a job skill that is in demand.. I could spend the next year learning everything about Java, but when my training is done if there are no Java jobs that are better than the job I had before then I have done myself a disservice. Plus people should be able to live to work not work to live. If I have to spend all my personal time learning things for the next job then there isn't much point being in technology at all.

My thought, on the IT infrastructure side, Cloud, WiFi, and IT project management...

No idea what's in demand on the programming side...

Re:Those 2% raises don't add up over time...

[__aaclcg7560]

My thought, on the IT infrastructure side, Cloud, WiFi, and IT project management.

Computer security is a good option for a veteran IT worker.

Re:Those 2% raises don't add up over time...

[__aaclcg7560]

LinkedIn has been bugging me for about two months trying to get me to go for a third round of interviewing.

LinkedIn is spamming you and you can't ignore it? Turn in your geek cred and don't let the door hit your ass on the way out. :P

Re:Those 2% raises don't add up over time...

[fluffernutter]

Well, IT project management isn't don't by technology people anywhere I have worked... and 'Cloud'... I'm not really sure how anyone gets advanced skills in 'Cloud'.. everything I have read on it seems to be set up for very low skilled people and there is a hard cap to the kind of pay you will get through that kind of work.

Re:Those 2% raises don't add up over time...

[fluffernutter]

There is a big difference between investing yourself and working your life away.

Re:Those 2% raises don't add up over time...

[QRDeNameland]

If I have to spend all my personal time learning things for the next job then there isn't much point being in technology at all.

Not to mention the fact...how many instances have you ever seen in your IT career where someone was hired on the basis of some technology s/he picked up in their own spare time? I can't say it never happens, but in 20 years in IT I've never seen it happen even once.

Yet the mantra that we all should be spending every last waking non-working hour chasing after every fad-of-the-week language/framework seems to be pervasive around here, even as it flies in the face of economic reality, not to mention basic human nature.

Re:Those 2% raises don't add up over time...

[Anonymous Coward]

People say that, but look around, nobody is spending money on security. Job openings are slim compared to other IT positions.

Re:Those 2% raises don't add up over time...

[__aaclcg7560]

Not to mention the fact...how many instances have you ever seen in your IT career where someone was hired on the basis of some technology s/he picked up in their own spare time?

I've seen the opposite happen. An IT manager who worked for the company for 15 years threw a fit because a brand new Dell laptop didn't have a traditional 2.5" bay for a hard drive that needed replacement. We told him that it was a solid state drive on a card. He claimed it was wireless card and got mad when we pointed out the wireless card with connected antenna wires. The laptop sat in his office for six months before another manager arranged for a Dell tech to repair it under warranty. Because computer hardware had static for the last decade, he felt no need to stay current in his chosen field.

Yet the mantra that we all should be spending every last waking non-working hour chasing after every fad-of-the-week language/framework seems to be pervasive around here, even as it flies in the face of economic reality, not to mention basic human nature and behaved badly when exposed to new technology.

God forbid if you might enjoy technology as a hobby. I program in Python, design electronic circuits using "old school" DIP electronics, and build new computers to stay current in PC hardware. What has this got to do with my current job as a computer security technician? Not much.

Re:Those 2% raises don't add up over time...

[__aaclcg7560]

People say that, but look around, nobody is spending money on security. Job openings are slim compared to other IT positions.

According to Forbes, computer security was $75B in 2015 and expected to be $170B in 2020.

Worldwide spending on information security will reach $75 billion for 2015, an increase of 4.7â%â over 2014, according to the latest forecast from Gartner, Inc. The global cybersecurity market is expected to be worth $170 billion by 2020, according to Hemanshu âoeHemuâ Nigam, founder of security advisory firm SSP Blue, and an expert in online safety and privacy who has led security efforts at Microsoft and News Corporation. The cyber security market is estimated to grow at a compound annual growth rate (CAGR) of 9.8â% from 2015 to 2020, according to a report from Markets and Markets.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevemorgan/2015/12/20/cybersecurity%E2%80%8B-%E2%80%8Bmarket-reaches-75-billion-in-2015%E2%80%8B%E2%80%8B-%E2%80%8Bexpected-to-reach-170-billion-by-2020/

Re:Those 2% raises don't add up over time...

[__aaclcg7560]

There is a big difference between investing yourself and working your life away.

My employment contracts for the last 10+ years have prohibited me from working more than 40 hours a week. None of the Fortune 500 companies want to pay overtime anymore.

Re:Those 2% raises don't add up over time...

[0100010001010011]

Finally someone else that seems to 'get' it.

And I don't spend most of my free time keep up on skills. I spend work hours keeping up on skills. I automate the boring parts of my job, and then 'slack off' by learning something new.

My 'job' as is didn't exist 10 years ago and my job from 10 years ago is a folder of scripts. I *hate* working with these guys, the ones that insist on doing things the way they learned them when they graduated from college in 1980. Their skills are beyond rusty and the only reason they're still employed is because it's easier to do that than get replacements. And that only works to a point, then they decide to sweep in H1Bs and replace a bunch of dead weight.

Re:Those 2% raises don't add up over time...

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice to meet you. I was a construction framer. Not even a 'carpenter' A california platform framer. I started that career packing wood for other people. In my spare time I play guitar in a band.

Back in 2003, I wanted to stream live video and audio of my band with shoutcast/nsv

In 2007 the housing market crashed.

in 2015, I was hired as full time lead server developer for streaming technologies.

Full disclosure, I took fortran in the early 90's. That was the only computer class ever...

Re:Those 2% raises don't add up over time...

[Anonymous Coward]

You're looking into the wrong side of the cloud then. Forget the customer facing side and learn to setup the cloud, how to manage the hosts, and how to keep them running well.

Re:Those 2% raises don't add up over time...

[Anonymous Coward]

You cert may be a 15 year old slip of paper, but your skill set has continued to grow and evolve since then. I mean, sure you could still be crap on anything after windows 2k3 and exchange 5.5... but lets not act like that's a likely possibility. I'd bet your resume has the most recent server os in your flavor (RHEL, Windows, etc..) on it and you have some competency.

Re:Those 2% raises don't add up over time...

[jittles]

LinkedIn has been bugging me for about two months trying to get me to go for a third round of interviewing.

LinkedIn is spamming you and you can't ignore it? Turn in your geek cred and don't let the door hit your ass on the way out. :P

They aren't spamming me. I legitimately interviewed with them prior to knowing what their process was like.

Re:Those 2% raises don't add up over time...

[evilviper]

If I have to spend all my personal time learning things for the next job then there isn't much point being in technology at all.

Have you got something else that pays nearly as well lined-up? I can show you scores of people working minimum wage jobs who would kill to earn a good IT salary. Why do you think people burn themselves out? Because you could live for several years on what you earn in one, that is if you're any good at managing money. Work for 20 years and retire, if you want to see the benefits.

Re:Those 2% raises don't add up over time...

[edtice1559]

You're always better off having additional skills. Our industry is one of continuous learning. If you learn Java and it doesn't work out, learn C#. But you can be pretty sure there will be Java jobs out there. One thing we can all be sure is that the skills we have today won't qualify us to work at all in 10 years. Our skills just become obsolete too fast.

Re:Those 2% raises don't add up over time...

[fluffernutter]

At some point in the 20 years a person has to start a family if they want one. A job should not take parents away from raising a family properly. Also I question how you would support an entire family on 20 years of salary and still have anything left over for yourself. Even if it is possible I can guarantee you won't be enriching your kids' lives with extra-curricular activities or having any savings for post-secondary education.

Re:Those 2% raises don't add up over time...

[evilviper]

People raise families on minimum wage jobs all the time. Two decades of high wages puts you far ahead of nearly everyone around you. It only poses a problem if you're lousy at managing money, and can't stop yourself from spending like it's going to spoil.

Re:Those 2% raises don't add up over time...

[fluffernutter]

I do a lot of learning in my spare time. I taught myself iOS and Android development as well as web design over the last 10 years. This has been consistently hard on my family. I have not always been there to drive my kids around to where they need to go or do things around the house. My wife accepts it but she's usually not happy about it. Furthermore, when I apply for a job companies don't really seem to care what I do in my spare time even though I have participated in projects sufficiently large enough to put on my resume. If you work in a place that has projects using evolving technology and they seek out the knowledge in the employee base that they already have and you are in a position to put your hand up, I can see how learning on the side could work. My place of work doesn't do that, and other places of work seem to want to put me in exact same kind of position because HR people work on keywords and they don't know how everything is related. I'm lucky that I have had a fairly stable job for my career so far, but the writing is on the wall. Now I must consider where I find the time for possibly constant job searches (ie. consulting) on top of finding the time to keep myself educated.

I just look around at the effort I put into my career versus the effort my neighbors put into theirs and average out the pay per hour and it becomes clear that technology was the wrong choice.

Re:Those 2% raises don't add up over time...

[fluffernutter]

Right, but families on minimum wage do what they need to do. When my wife was a kid she couldn't participate in organized sports because her family couldn't afford it. Something like music lessons was completely out of the question. My kids are in these things and it will pay off for them big time. It would be awfully selfish of me to rob them of these things just so that I can retire early. And no I don't consider this a frivolous life choice, I consider this keeping the promise I made to be the best parent that I can be; because if you have kids that is what everyone should aspire to do.

Re:Those 2% raises don't add up over time...

[pnutjam]

That's because the companies don't trust their own workers. They lump all kind of things into security and a big chunk of it is consulting from people who aren't really IT.
IT security is not as good a career track as it looks like from the outside.

Re:Those 2% raises don't add up over time...

[edtice1559]

I sometimes think I made the wrong choice as well. Having to continuously update skills makes for a feeling of insecurity. What do your neighbors do where they aren't in this situation? The only job where I really see this being true is technology sales.

Re:Those 2% raises don't add up over time...

[Anonymous Coward]

I hate 'IT' contractors that think they are the shit. I hate dealing with punks who never had ownership with a company because they are so interested in the 2 year temp cycle. Mostly they never learn anything just enough to fake it as an 'IT' contractor. YMMV

Re:Those 2% raises don't add up over time...

[fluffernutter]

A lot of them work for local government. Some medical support positions, dental hygenists and the like.. An IT job with the government can be pretty flat promotion-wise but that might be better.

Re:Those 2% raises don't add up over time...

[__aaclcg7560]

IT security is not as good a career track as it looks like from the outside.

That's probably my problem then. I'm looking from the inside out. I'll be starting my third year in government IT as a computer security technician. I give thanks to Microsoft for my daily job security.

Re:Those 2% raises don't add up over time...

[Rhys]

This.

My track to FIRE will be longer than 20 years, part by foolishness (working at an underpaid state job for too long right out of school) and part by caution (build up extra nest egg for safety because I don't trust said same state to actually provide the pension benefits they've promised... to my family, or my in-laws).

You can retire in 7 years if you're hardcore.

Re:Those 2% raises don't add up over time...

[evilviper]

I consider this keeping the promise I made to be the best parent that I can be

Interesting plan. Be a good parent by... working your ass off and never seeing your kids.

Re:Those 2% raises don't add up over time...

[__aaclcg7560]

I hate dealing with punks who never had ownership with a company because they are so interested in the 2 year temp cycle.

My last three jobs ended after nine months on average.

Re:Those 2% raises don't add up over time...

[edtice1559]

I think those jobs also pay half of what a Java programmer makes, no?

Re:Those 2% raises don't add up over time...

[Ann O'Nymous-Coward]

Since when is overtime paid to IT staff?

Re:Those 2% raises don't add up over time...

[fluffernutter]

Perhaps if you're in a major center. Around me it seems all technology jobs are around $60-70k.

Re:Those 2% raises don't add up over time...

[__aaclcg7560]

Since when is overtime paid to IT staff?

Based on my experience... before 2005./p

Specialization is dying

[Tablizer]

The future for US IT workers is to be a multi-hat jack-of-all-trades who handle all IT in a section or department of a company rather than in a "cubicle factory" doing specialized tasks.

The multi-hatters are not paid as well, but seem less likely to be offshored or outsourced because they know the company in and out. You are not just a number on a beat-counter spreadsheet; you are somebody who knows the personnel and management, and are a face to them.

Re:Specialization is dying

[Tablizer]

correction: "bean-counter".

Re:Specialization is dying

[__aaclcg7560]

The multi-hatters are not paid as well, but seem less likely to be offshored or outsourced because they know the company in and out.

If you want make money as a multi-hatter IT worker, you need to do contract work. I often make 40% more money than someone who spent 5+ years collecting 2% raises for being a loyal worker. The downside is that my jobs are often last anywhere from one day to one year. The upside is that I can't adapt to any corporate environment.

Re:Specialization is dying

[Tablizer]

I find that when one has a family, one typically wants stability in terms of working hours, commute time, and a predictable paycheck.

I'm not that great of a self-marketer, and one of the slumps kicked me pretty hard. I could get work out of state then, but that's hard on the family.

Re:Specialization is dying

[husker_man]

This. I was consulting with three separate companies back in 1997, pulling down a good deal of income with my activities. When my firstborn came along, I found myself not able to do the extended hours some of my clients needed anymore, and I decided to take full time employment with a company, trading my higher income (as a self-employed consultant) for more job security for my family. I'm also not as great a salesman of myself, and I found myself not enjoying having to go out and find new contracts (although I had plenty of referrals to keep me busy).

Re:Specialization is dying

[l0n3s0m3phr34k]

overall, you would have made more profit by selling off your kid to a wealthy yet-sterile couple and keeping your multiple jobs. Or at least that's how these corps seem to operate.

How long until businesses realize...

[Anonymous Coward]

That good work isn't cheap and cheap work isn't good, no matter what all these newly-minted MBA bean-counter idiots believe?

Re:How long until businesses realize...

[omnichad]

It's cheaper than the fines and payouts for data breaches. As long as you give lip service to checking the right checkboxes, you can get liability insurance coverage to cover all that subpar work. They don't care about it actually being good. Just good enough to not get arrested or lose money.

Get off the sinking ship

[Anonymous Coward]

You think the company will value you again? It's obvious they are moving on, do not care. It's a sinking ship. Get off.

Re:HIPPA

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit. EmblemHealth is responsible for implementing HIPPA. If they outsource abroad, then they need to make sure that the foreign company is compliant.

Save Jobs??

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know what EmblemHealth's spin is, but Jobs has been dead for several years now, I think it's a little late to save him.
This is /. we don't read summaries, right?

Thanks for toasting my anonymity...

[Anonymous Coward]

"...she said"

Anonymity

[mamono]

The summary says this person requested anonymity but it closed with "she said". Considering this is an IT department, wouldn't the fact that the interviewee is female help the company to narrow down this person?

Re:Anonymity

[Anonymous Coward]

The summary says this person requested anonymity but it closed with "she said". Considering this is an IT department, wouldn't the fact that the interviewee is female help the company to narrow down this person?

Not if there are no female employees in the IT department; like most IT departments.

Re: HIPPA

[Anonymous Coward]

And one suspects the penalty for being non-compliant is management bonuses.

Outsource == Manditory severance and...

[Anonymous Coward]

Not conditional on knowledge transfer. Knowledge transfer is done via consultancy service provided by current employees. Everything has a cost, and companies look at the long-term, but should feel the pain short-term...at least a little.

Might as well give up now

[damn_registrars]

Organized labor has no power in this country any more. They are even further handicapped by trying to face off with an industry that is so powerful it essentially owns the federal government. Sure, they can't be fired for organizing but the company can fire them for insubordination. Or as the description suggested the company could just fold and then reopen under a new name with the same business plan.

Sorry guys but your goose is cooked. You can't win this one.

Re:Might as well give up now

[fustakrakich]

Organized labor has no power in this country any more.... Sorry guys but your goose is cooked. You can't win this one.

Who are you? Doctor Bendova? If the "industry is so powerful it essentially owns the federal government", then it's only because you handed them the power with your vote. And you will do it again in November. So I hope you're not complaining.

Re:Might as well give up now

[damn_registrars]

Voting for someone else in the 2008 election would have brought the same conclusion for "health care reform", it just would have at most had someone else's name on it.

Re:Might as well give up now

[fustakrakich]

At least you could say you made the effort, but you didn't. Vote the democrats and republicans out and you might get different results. But you won't, and that still won't stop you from complaining. Your credibility is non existent. Not until you act credibly, with your vote. Until then, you are just another whiner.

Re:Might as well give up now

[damn_registrars]

Wow, you wrote one message where you advocated for voting for someone - rather than your usual advocacy of abstaining from voting entirely - and now you pretend to have some credibility? Too bad you are completely overlooking the fact that voting for a third person with no chance in a race is not an effective way to bring about anything. Go back to your non-voting strategy but keep it to yourself. Some of us live in the real world and face the restrictions it presents.

Re:Might as well give up now

[fustakrakich]

Wow, you wrote one message where you advocated for voting for someone - rather than your usual advocacy of abstaining from voting entirely

Always did. You just ignored it to sustain your lie, and your lie about alternate parties. So you, go back to your herd and stay safe.

Re:Might as well give up now

[damn_registrars]

I cannot stop you from lying if you feel you should. The fact of the matter however is that you have a lengthy comment history of advocating for non-voting. Whether or not you yourself vote is another matter but that only matters in that it would detail the depth of your hypocrisy.

Re:Might as well give up now

[fustakrakich]

:-) Riight.

The fact of the matter however is that you have a lengthy comment history of advocating for non-voting.

You have yet to show a single one. and contrarily, you've been posting how useless voting is throughout this here thread. Lying indeed you are! You make the republicans look like amateurs. Whatever, you're only trolling anyway. So you know, pffft...

Re:Might as well give up now

[omnichad]

completely overlooking the fact that voting for a third person with no chance in a race is not an effective way to bring about anything.

Tell that to the Federalists and the Whigs.

If Hillary and Trump are on the ballot, I foresee Sanders getting a 15-20% third-party vote (I don't see him dropping out after not getting a democratic nomination). No win. But after 4 years of Trump, people will get really desperate. Is Sanders better? That's not the really as important of a question to ask at this point. At least one of the current two parties are on their way out.

Re:Might as well give up now

[damn_registrars]

If Hillary and Trump are on the ballot, I foresee Sanders getting a 15-20% third-party vote (I don't see him dropping out after not getting a democratic nomination).

Sanders will endorse Hillary if she wins the nomination. Sanders supporters would very much prefer a President Sanders over a President Clinton but they are intelligent enough to recognize that a President Clinton would be vastly better for their interests than a President Trump; hence they will line up behind Hillary if she wins the nomination. I have not met in person a single Sanders supporter - and I have met many of them - who would not vote for Hillary if she wins. They understand the stakes.

At least one of the current two parties are on their way out.

The GOP was on its way to implosion. Now it is fracturing into strange new segments, it comes down to whether or not the party elders can get all the cats back in line in time; likely the answer is no.

Tragically, the democrats seem to be learning the wrong lesson from this. They should be making an identity for themselves as a legitimately left-leaning party. Instead over the past 20+ years they have leaned consistently further to the right. Not only is the current GOP too conservative for 1980 Ronald Reagan, the current democrats may be as well.

Re:Might as well give up now

[omnichad]

but they are intelligent enough to recognize that a President Clinton would be vastly better for their interests than a President Trump;

I don't know...he's picked up a lot of unique followers, some of whom would pick Trump over Clinton.

Sanders listed five demands that he would require of [Clinton] before he gave his official endorsement. Sanders' strict requirements include: a single-payer health care system, tougher regulation of the finance industry, a $15 per hour minimum wage, closing corporate tax loopholes, and a legitimate effort to address climate change. Let's break down where Clinton currently stands on these issues. Clinton has said that a single-payer health care system will never happen; she has received generous campaign donations from Wall Street; she would support a $12 hourly minimum wage rate. Clinton and Sanders have both proposed increasing taxes on the rich, and Clinton released a climate change plan in July 2015.

It's not exactly simple. He won't support her the way she is. He's completely committed to his issues with the corrupt ways of the Democratic party. And the Democratic party has not supported him much at all during the primaries. They've done nothing for him, so I wouldn't expect him to do much for them.

Re:HIPPA

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit. EmblemHealth is responsible for implementing HIPPA. If they outsource abroad, then they need to make sure that the foreign company is compliant.

It's HIPAA, you douchebag.

Re:HIPPA

[Anonymous Coward]

Citation needed. Your statement is absolutely untrue. Foreign nationals / corporations have
no obligation under US law. In other words, the following applies only to native-born Americans --

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/physician-resources/solutions-managing-your-practice/coding-billing-insurance/hipaahealth-insurance-portability-accountability-act/hipaa-violations-enforcement.page?

Indians are exempt. Ever try to sue an Indian? Yeah, you're going to travel to _that_ part of the
world - plane fare cost you more than any negligence the Indians have caused - plus you can't sue
an Indian in India - whattya nuts?

CAP === 'crystals'

H-1B is just a tool

[Anonymous Coward]

Posting anonymously cause I'm too lazy to login.

How is this an H-1B problem? Before you mark me flamebait or troll, please bother to read.

The company decided to cut costs and will do so. H-1B or not. They will outsource and off-shore to get things done cheaper.

Say hypothetically, there was no H-1B program. Cognizant or any other Indian company could legally bring remote staff for knowledge transfer and/or meetings on Business Visas (though not earn a wage) and offshore to India. How they bill for the time & effort is secondary.

OR they could fly critical staff to India and get the same knowledge transfer done!!

Rather than targeting H-1Bs (which, I agree needs more regulation or maybe reduction), Americans can refuse (or reduce) business with companies that decide to offshore jobs.. which sadly may be 90% of all companies (or greater).

H-1B remains a tool to enable offshoring, if not H-1B.. the suits will find another way.

Stockholms Syndrome (MOD THIS UP)

[Anonymous Coward]

1: Either Dice is astroturfing the article comments on slashdot or the entire IT community seems to be self-defeating. "They were all older anyway", really!? Are you so easily baited? We've all run into people working in IT who just simply do not belong in IT, and we all know what I'm talking about, and there's WAY TOO MANY of those people in our industry, and we've all drawn fire from them for their screw-ups. But, that's a symptom of a Labor shortage which outsourcing actions like this make worse because you don't get generations passing on the general know-how. It gets to the point management can't tell Good IT is VS Bad IT because they've just dealt with Bad for so long, my current job did that for the last 20 years. It's like the community has been badgered for so long by the Media Monopoly that they can't wrap their heads around how to fight or think critically when it comes to labor.

2: Companies in general, DO NOT WANT to EVER outsource IT. They only do it for two reasons, either their old department had gotten so out of date it became necessary and trivial, or they got into financial trouble. Doing it to save a few bucks for a managers back pocket is almost un-heard-of as far as I can tell. Is Emblem Health in financial trouble? Deeply so. Why? I can only speculate but we all know what I'm thinking given the recent healthcare legislation.

http://www.modernhealthcare.com/article/20150626/NEWS/150629904

3: There's LITERALLY no way to oust an IT group that decides to unionize because unlike other labor groups, IT folks have the ability to both disrupt operations and cost the organization dearly by simply walking out of the door. For health insurance, they are as necessary as your actuaries to developing the special sauce you sell. That is exactly what is going to happen here; they're going to try to take on the group piecemeal and the group is going to strike. IT is the only industry where managers routinely take advantage of specialized staff, and that needs to stop because it is a detriment to the industry. Paying someone salary and expecting them to work 80hr weeks for years on end is ignoring the real costs, and the real resolutions to those costs. Usually what happens is they grow and implode in a managers face.

4: Mark my words, this company is going to get bought out by someone else anyway. So if you work there and are reading this, strike like hell, have your fun, then get use the time you have bought to get the hell out of dodge.

Need to know the history

[Trachman]

Readers need to know the history of EmblemHealth. EmblemHealth receives serious money from the New York City. All of it is to subsidize low income health care plans insurance.

Their decision to outsource will, eventually, increase the number of low income people, in absolute terms, in relative terms or both. IT people will need to either move out, or accept lower pay, or be unpaid.

EmblemHealth is formally non-profit organization, yet they handle their profitability issues just as bad as for profit organization. This is another ding to those who say that "profit" needs to be removed from the healthcare.

As such, this is another evidence that once the bureaucracy is assigned to fix the problem, you can guarantee that the problem will never be fixed.

Labor group not as powerful as they think

[davidwr]

They can't transition [to Cognizant] without the information that we have.

So, are the workers saying that if all of themwere in the same plane at the same time and it crashed and killed everyone, EmblemHealth would go out of business?

If so, then yes, they do have a huge amount of leverage.

Otherwise, their leverage is limited to the damage of the "you all died at the same time" scenario above.

Yes, I'm assuming the workers wouldn't stoop so low as to actually sabotage things to hurt the company WORSE than if they were to suddenly die, quit, or otherwise become "permanently unavailable."

Temp workers at other companies

[Anonymous Coward]

Suppose company X needed temporary help with an IT project. X might hire some EmblemHealth (EH) IT workers to help with the project. X would get temporary skilled workers, and the EH workers would get a temporary job, while they searched for a new permanent job.

If enough companies (including EH's competitors) did this, and if the EH workers left EH before they completely trained their replacements, then the early loss of current IT workers could hurt EmblemHealth.

How is this news?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes nobody likes to lose their job, but the company is doing what makes economic sense...

Wrong about "banned for life"

[Zontar_Thing_From_Ve]

A long time? No banned from federal service for life.

Incorrect. They may have been banned from becoming controllers again, but they were most definitely not banned from federal service for life. How do I know? I'm old enough to have worked in federal service IT with a fired former ATC. This would have been in the late 1980s. He had no problems getting a government clearance to do IT work as a federal employee at a US military base, but he could never be an ATC again. He didn't talk much about it except I do remember that he still thought he did the right thing in going on strike, which was an opinion I did not share.

Re:Wrong about "banned for life"

[Anonymous Coward]

Guess you'd have to be an ATC to get his point, huh?

Emblem Health is horrible

[speedlaw]

I'm not at all surprised to see this. Not too long ago, there was a health insurer called GHO+HMI. They were reasonably priced and accepted in most health care locations. They went private, and the NY Dept of Insurance allowed it. In the filings, they claimed competition and market forces would allow them to maintain services and keep rates low. Today, they spend a lot of money on advertising Medicare plans. I had them for two years under an ACA plan...a total waste of money. "oh, we don't accept Emblem from the Exchange" was the refrain in every doc's office. They fought me on every claim, mis processed, and in one instance, refused to help me at least get the negotiated rates for services. They are screwing their IT staff ? Say it ain't so. I heartily wish the senior executives of Emblem Health, their children, and families, the most painful of disease, bone cancers, and dysfunctional major organs with no matching transplant donors. I sincerely hope for a few hospital infections and an incompetent intern at a crucial moment. They screwed a working nonprofit health insurance provider and literally there is NO bad thing they don't deserve.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:Might as well TRY now

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes it's possible to fix.
What side would slashdot posters take if these workers unionized?
Would it be the typical "bash your peers" unprofessional style?
Or would there be a concerted effort to actually stand behind their decision because it could be you next?

Cognizant is scum

[Anonymous Coward]

Cognizant's senior executives company probaby suck Indian and American politician dick as they replace qualified American workers! Why aren't these scum in jail, along with the American CEOs who abuse the system. It's sickening!

Make everything on your own

[gabriellalustar]

IT employees will be useless soon! You hit the nail on the head with your issue! Because I know this excellent review of website builders http://www.templatemonster.com... where you can find the necessary information for you. All the best CMS tools are listed in that post. Using the CMS you will implement your dream site absolutely free of charge and, in my view, it is an important advantage! The most important is the correct use of your opportunities. To my mind – any issue has a solution, but you must make every effort in order to transform your intentions into reality. You have all chances for development of your idea! I wish good luck you! =)

I work for Cognizant

[newnowknowhow]

I've been reading /. for a long time, but just created an account now to comment here. I really don't have anything valuable to add. I just wanted to say that I'm sorry that this is happening. Hope with the elections close, you will be able to force your lawmakers to take a stand to protect your jobs. 200 employees protesting won't make any change. Even if you are not an employee or customer of EmblemHealth, you should stand in solidarity with them, because if it's their jobs today, it will be yours tomorrow. It is time American companies put people before profits. IMO, H1-B visa regulations might not prove to be as effective as you think (I'm only guessing). Currently I work (for Cognizant) from offshore for a large US insurance group. My project team consists of about 40% Americans working from US and 60% us from Cognizant. Most of us Cognizant employees work from offshore and don't have H1-B visas. There just need to be 1 or 2 people having visas in the US for us to co-ordinate the work. So I'm not sure a solution solely based on reducing the number of H1-B visas is going to work.

Finally, IT workers who have real brains

[Anonymous Coward]

Finally, IT workers who have real brains....I work in IT. I think most of my coworkers must be morons for not wanting to form IT unions.
It's good to see some people starting to see the value in old time American values like teamwork and patriotism.

Presidents like to talk about American values while they make pan-global trade deals that undercut our nation from abroad and
from within. Wake up Americans, our country is ceasing to exist. Kudos to these folks for organizing to stop illegal, unpatriotic
actions by their employer.

Once again, "IT employees" - what do they do!?

[Anonymous Coward]

I want to know what these "IT employees" who are getting fired actually do, but the articles never say. How valuable are they to a company?

The only way to solve the problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Is to form mobs where these action happen, take the people responsible, and string them up by the neck. Sooner or later they'll figure out American workers aren't going to put up with this shit anymore.

Free Market anti-globalization Racism

[Anonymous Coward]

Reduce your salaries, or let cheaper workers take your job? Cheaper workers will go up, and then money will get out of the equation at some point.

Re:Might as well TRY now

[damn_registrars]

What side would slashdot posters take if these workers unionized?

You must be new here. Slashdot has been overrun by conservatives for a long, long time. Any union would be roundly bashed by the loudest voices here, regardless of industry. You could have a union formed by independent gun, ammo, and US flag salespeople and slashdot readers would trip over each other telling us how these people were terrible unpatriotic terrorists who should be run out of the country - or up the nearest pole - sooner than possible.

However the thoughts of slashdot posters is irrelevant. These IT workers won't succeed in unionizing, or at least not in doing so and keeping their jobs. Sure, firing people for organizing a union is illegal but it is extremely difficult to prove and these workers are going against the industry that already owns the federal government. They'd have a better chance of growing wings and flying to Mars.

When's the vote?

[whitroth]

I mean, I understand that there's something called Section 7 rights, that *does* allow "professionals" to organize a union.

And if you think one person can wield the documentation hammer, and not be escorted out the door, and the rest made to pick up for them, you're a sucker.

They *do* have the right answer. And, if they do organize, then they've got a stronger case for unfair labor practices.... and a union to help with lawyers and court costs.

                    mark

Tax Company Revenues,

[NewYork]

1. Tax Company Revenues, Not Profits;
2. Regulate Market Capitalization of Corporations;

Coren22 = King of FAIL, lol! Proof?

[Anonymous Coward]

secretary at MalwareBytes took a look at his source code and said it looked all good - by Coren22

My code's verified by Mr. S. Burn of Malwarebytes

"I've seen the code and yes it is safe." FROM http://forum.hosts-file.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4290

NOT a secretary!

I don't give it away to be stolen or misused like GOOGLE CHROME http://it.slashdot.org/story/15/10/20/1254225/efast-malware-hijacks-browser-with-chrome-clone

won't demonstrate security of his product be exposing the source - by Coren22 (1625475)

57 antiviruses show different https://www.virustotal.com/en/file/e01211ca36aa02e923f20adee0a3c4f5d5187dc65bdf1c997b3da3c2b0745425/analysis/1433430542/

MalwareBytes' employee hosts & recommends it -> http://hosts-file.net/?s=Download

* EAT YOUR WORDS Coren22

APK

P.S.=> See subject - & remember a lesson Google had w/ Chrome above (even gov't.'s not opening all their code & same reason https://slashdot.org/submission/5780853/dhs-walks-back-comments-on-feds-open-source-policy )