Microsoft Auto-Scheduling Windows 10 Updates (tomshardware.com)

Pikoro quotes this report from Tom's Hardware: Windows 10 has been with us for a little over eight months now, which means there are only about four months remaining to get a free upgrade from an older Windows operating system. As the clock counts down, Microsoft has begun to auto-schedule PCs to upgrade to Windows 10 with or without consent from end users.

Now, as we near the end of the free upgrade period, Microsoft's malware-like upgrade system is becoming even more intrusive by autoscheduling upgrades to Windows 10. I noticed that the Windows 10 upgrade reminder pop-up on a Windows 7 PC was no longer asking me to upgrade; instead, it's now informing me that it has already scheduled an update for May 17.
Meanwhile, the U.S. Marine Corps has discovered half their computers unexpectedly can't remotely upgrade to Windows 10, slowing their transition to what they expect to be a much more secure operating system.

Comments

fucktards

[Anonymous Coward]

...

Re:fucktards

[MobSwatter]

Agreed, I certainly hope they are prepared to purchase upgrades to the software on my system that has been determined by their upgrade utility to be not compatible with Windoze 10. Attorney is locked and loaded, simply awaiting countdown to launch to explain to Microsoft exactly who owns this computer.

Re: fucktards

[zaphirplane]

Random internet guy threatens multi billion dollar company, what happens next place you bet
100000000000000000000000000 to 1 follow thru
No odds for not following thru

Re:fucktards

[Darinbob]

If they're that desperate to get Windows 10 everywhere, why can't they just pay us?

Re:fucktards

[gsslay]

to be not compatible with Windoze 10

I think the problem may lie with your hilarious mispronunciation of the the OS system. Compatibility might be higher with Windows 10.

Re:fucktards

[cdrudge]

Why pay you when they'll just auto-upgrade you instead?

Re:fucktards

[MobSwatter]

Someone didn't read their license agreement. You're only renting the hardware while Windows is on it. Oh you wanted to use linux? Too bad we've forced hardware vendors to lock the boot loader chump.

Yeah right, and subletting processor ticks to the NSA via Microsoft because I wanted to run the most advanced Trojan horse available at the time and obviously Windoze 10 is a new and improved, over the top version of that. I guess its a keeping up the the Jones's type thing but some of my software that is used does not run under Windoze 10 so obviously a forced upgrade will produce compounding damages to me and those that I provide service to. But that's okay, I'll take a lump sum from Microsoft and go sit on a beach somewhere for stuff they prevent me from doing by forcing their upgrade and not have to work any day. It's like a second Christmas without having to take a bunch of cheap crap back to the mall.

Re:fucktards

[jez9999]

I installed GWX control panel, and I actually disabled the wuauserv service. It only gets enabled if/when I decide to check for updates and install, and I have a long list of "verboten" updates that will never get installed, not to mention I carefully check each new update available.

Worked so far. No dumbass Win10 nagging or background downloading.

"Auto-scheduling..."

[K. S. Kyosuke]

In that case, my laptop (for convenience, the only device of mine running Windows) is now auto-scheduled for a Linux installation this year...

Re:"Auto-scheduling..."

[Anonymous Coward]

So you decided to go for speed and security over invasion and lack of security?
Can't say I blame you.
I've helped lots of people load GRC's Never10, but Linux is even better.

Re:"Auto-scheduling..."

[K. S. Kyosuke]

Don't forget convenience. It turns out that building a lot of the things I need or want to run on Windows is a hellish experience. For example, Chez Scheme was recently open-sourced and it turns out that building it on Windows is a clusterfuck. Or rather a cluster-build - you need two machines (or at least a unixy VM with file sharing configured). I merely put up with Windows on the laptop because of the vendor's support and presumably the power management still works slightly better on Windows, but that's about it.

Re:"Auto-scheduling..."

[xeoron]

Two things to do: 1) Turn off auto-updates 2) Disable the upgrade with GRC's Never10

Re:"Auto-scheduling..."

[K. S. Kyosuke]

That won't fix the "my programming experience on Windows is shitty" problem, though.

Re:"Auto-scheduling..."

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

Also, it's worth pointing out, since the summary failed to do so, that all they've really done here appears to be classifying Windows 10 as a recommended update. That will mean anyone whose system is set to auto-install recommended updates will indeed get it. However, you can still cancel (or reschedule, if you prefer) when you get the prompt, and in any case if you don't have Windows Update set to auto-install things then this doesn't seem to make any difference to you.

In other words, the people who are going to get stung by this are the ones who have auto-updates on anyway. Since that's one of the major reasons not to move to Windows 10 if you're not happy to accept whatever Microsoft decides you should have, the people who feel that way probably won't have auto-install turned on for earlier Windows versions anyway and should be OK here.

Re:"Auto-scheduling..."

[jbmartin6]

Well stated. I saw this article and thought, haven't we heard that MS is "forcing" Windows 10 upgrades a dozen times already? You would think everyone would already be upgraded with all the forcing that has been going on. It is getting to be like the "ICQ is going to start charging" messages us old folks would get every couple of days.

Re:"Auto-scheduling..."

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

You would think everyone would already be upgraded with all the forcing that has been going on.

Indeed. To me, one of the most interesting things about Windows 10 is how unsuccessful Microsoft appears to have been at getting people to migrate, despite literally giving it away and actively trying to get users to switch. I've been told so often lately about how normal people don't mind the changes in UI or don't care about their privacy or should be installing all the forced updates anyway or whatever it is this week that only concerns geeks. If that's really the case, an awful lot of people seem to be actively avoiding the proposed update for no obvious reason.

Re:"Auto-scheduling..."

[FlyHelicopters]

A few thoughts:

1. People are afraid of change, good or bad.

2. People are comfortable with they have and don't see why they need "new".

3. MS probably pushed too hard on Windows 10 and should have rolled out some of the features over time, rather than at launch.

So some people are avoiding it for different reasons. Me? I had most machines on Windows 8.1 Update, but my personal computer was still on 7. Windows 10 finally got me to upgrade, I like it over 7 for many reasons.

Windows will never be perfect, but on balance 10 is superior to 7 all things considered, at least for most people.

Another point to consider... Staying on Windows 7 isn't really an option long term. Drivers slowly won't get updated for it, new hardware won't really be supported, etc.

For the next 2 years or so, Windows 7 remains a sort-of option for many people, but quickly won't as we approach 2020 when all public support ends.

In the age of the Internet, you simply have to stay up to date. If you're unconnected and run local programs only, then it isn't required, but those days are gone for most people.

Re:"Auto-scheduling..."

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

Your point about drivers is fair for new equipment, but doesn't matter if someone already has a working system and they aren't changing their hardware. And of course, it does cut both ways, as there have been various hardware-related problems with Windows 10 that don't affect earlier versions (and in some cases, the combination of those with the automatic updates has rendered Windows 10 systems literally unusable).

I'm not disputing that 10 also has some useful advantages over earlier versions, though in my case it's not even a possibility because of the privacy and security implications, and I think the day-to-day UI is significantly worse than what I already have with 7. I'm still waiting to see anything I'd call a killer feature; certainly the high-profile additions like Cortana, Edge and DirectX 12 aren't it.

As for always being up-to-date, in practice there's no guarantee that any software you buy will have security issues fixed, so relying on a single line of defence is never a very good strategy if you can avoid it. As I was just commenting in another post, the industry is interesting in that because at least the major software developers do tend to issue updates to fix glaring problems in their products post-sale, they seem to get cut a lot of slack for supplying a poor quality product in the first place. I suspect that before too long, given the increasing customer-hostile trends in the industry in terms of built-in obsolescence and forced update cycles (literally or just practically), there may be actual laws or other government regulation mandating certain minimum standards for support in digital products unless the industry gets its act together.

As for 2020, I'm honestly not worried about that at all. Windows 7 still has about 50% of the entire global market share for desktop/laptop OSes. Windows 10 is barely above Windows XP, and by the numbers it looks like most of its take-up has been Windows 8/8.1 users, not 7. I don't expect the current senior management team at Microsoft to survive in their posts for very much longer since by business standards the launch of Windows 10 has been very poorly received, and I expect the new management team to go back to more familiar territory and try to repair the damage that has been done to Microsoft's reputation before literally half their customers run out of support on Windows 7. Otherwise, if significant numbers of customers really do start switching to Apple laptops, mobile devices, or whatever other options appear within the next four years or so, Microsoft probably is finished as a serious player in the industry.

Re:"Auto-scheduling..."

[Ferocitus]

I switched to Linux about 6 weeks ago. I previously used Windows for about 20 years because most of the people who used my (ship hydrodynamics) software were Win users.
Apart from many other benefits, I'm finding I now don't have to twist, distort and otherwise shoehorn many simple programs to work with Windows.
I still have a Win7 machine but it never connects to the net. Hopefully Microsoft won't send one of their myrmidons around to force me to accept Win 10.

Re:"Auto-scheduling..."

[Darinbob]

Maybe more chairs need to be thrown for that to be fixed?

Re:"Auto-scheduling..."

[FlyHelicopters]

Your point about drivers is fair for new equipment, but doesn't matter if someone already has a working system and they aren't changing their hardware.

You're correct, if you keep your current system, it doesn't matter. But there is a practical limit to how long you can do that.

Even if you say, "never upgrade your software", unless you plan to leave the Internet, that stops being an option.

Take a 10 year old computer running Windows XP and try to access the internet. A lot of pages are now so complex as to make the experience painful. Yes, on a Core2Quad, it isn't so bad, but try an old Pentium D machine. It is brutal and nearly unusable.

Re:"Auto-scheduling..."

[FlyHelicopters]

I'm not disputing that 10 also has some useful advantages over earlier versions, though in my case it's not even a possibility because of the privacy and security implications, and I think the day-to-day UI is significantly worse than what I already have with 7. I'm still waiting to see anything I'd call a killer feature; certainly the high-profile additions like Cortana, Edge and DirectX 12 aren't it.

Two points here:

1. If the security and privacy issues of Windows 10 bother you, well, I think you're in a losing position. Not that I disagree with you from a belief viewpoint, I just think that those days are past. Unless of course you are one of those people who root your android phone, use private encryption, etc. But few people do and will never be a large part of the market.

In other words, avoiding Windows 10 doesn't actually solve the problem unless you take extreme measures in all of your digital life, and doing so will get harder, not easier, going forward. You can probably do it if you care enough, but don't confuse the edge of the market with the mainstream.

2. The fear over people leaving Windows when XP finally ended was there too, and it didn't happen. Instead once support finally ended, people did upgrade. In fact, I completely disagree over your viewpoint on Windows 10 being a poor launch, I don't think MS sees it that way at all. It was far superior to Windows 8 and Vista. People aren't going to start buying Apple Laptops, they cost too much. And frankly Linux isn't a serious option for the mainstream.

Windows 10 isn't "barely" above Windows XP in marketshare today, it is not even close. XP has finally dropped to the small single digits and it continues to lose support. Since MS is actually still supporting it for those who pay big bucks, it won't go to zero, but it is already the fringe. Windows 7 will continue for awhile, but MS will weed people off by not supporting anything past Skylake on it, making it not useful for new computers.

Side note: Regarding this comment:

Microsoft probably is finished as a serious player in the industry.

The problem is that viewpoint is from inside a bubble. What would replace MS on the desktop? There just isn't anything there. Macs cost WAY too much, and Linux isn't a reasonable choice. MS has, for all intents and purposes, a monopoly on the desktop.

Re:"Auto-scheduling..."

[Trax3001BBS]

In other words, the people who are going to get stung by this are the ones who have auto-updates on anyway. Since that's one of the major reasons not to move to Windows 10 if you're not happy to accept whatever Microsoft decides you should have, the people who feel that way probably won't have auto-install turned on for earlier Windows versions anyway and should be OK here.

Win10 on an Acer aspire switch 10 (keyboard detaches for tablet).
Only option is to set the update download time, when logging out the options are update and shutdown, update and something else, and sleep.

  I run a script that deletes the update files before shutting down (%windir%\softwaredistribution\download) problem solved.
The script I use is modified a bit from the one found here http://answers.microsoft.com/e...

I'm going to use Xeoron's advice above and go with GRC.com, Gibson has taken care of me for long time now (Shields up, DNS benchmark, and articles).

Oh ya, note: after I get a 3TB internal hard drive handled Linux KDE will be installed on my main system to dual with Windows 7.

Re:"Auto-scheduling..."

[antdude]

Auto scheduled by whom? Linus? :P

Re:"Auto-scheduling..."

[dbIII]

A thought you didn't have but I did because it's been rubbed in my face:

Development of commercial engineering and scientific software is slooooow.
It's going to be at least a couple of years until some of the stuff in my workplace actually runs on Win10 - mainly due to copy protection shit, but if it does not run it really doesn't matter what the roadblock is and users are stuck on the old platform.
I've already had to roll one machine back to Win7, fairly painless, but the user had to find some stuff to do for a morning that did not require their computer.

Staying on Windows 7 isn't really an option long term

I've got users on XP to run legacy software (they could use a VM but still on bare metal) and a win2k machine used rarely to run some VB abomination that requires two parallel port dongles so no VM for it.
For as long as there are compatability problems you'll see people on older versions of MS Windows whether they like the new version or not.

Re:"Auto-scheduling..."

[Killall -9 Bash]

I prefer Ultimate Outsider's GWX Control Panel.

Re:"Auto-scheduling..."

[Killall -9 Bash]

In other words, the people who are going to get stung by this are the ones who have auto-updates on anyway. Since that's one of the major reasons not to move to Windows 10 if you're not happy to accept whatever Microsoft decides you should have, the people who feel that way probably won't have auto-install turned on for earlier Windows versions anyway and should be OK here.

Except that in the real world, there's things like HIPAA and PCIDSS that consider not installing updates unacceptable. I use a security suite that will, by default, TURN ON automatic updates if there are off.

Re:"Auto-scheduling..."

[KlomDark]

What the hell is a Cheese Scheme? Some new marketing program from Kraft?

Re:"Auto-scheduling..."

[jez9999]

I have just the opposite problem. There are probably 4 major pieces of software stopping me switching to Linux for my main machine. In order of importance:
- Visual Studio
- IIS
- SQL Server
- MS Office

I can just about get away with replacing office with LibreOffice (although I'd have to use the horrible Outlook Web Access for email), and possibly replacing SQL Server with Postgres (though convincing my company that we should do that is next to impossible), but Linux has nothing like IIS. No decent GUI for a web server and the second something went wrong people would be saying "Why don't you have an event log? What's your IIS setup?" And of course Visual Studio. Just doesn't exist on Linux. As someone who mostly develops C#/.NET web applications, this is critical.

Re:"Auto-scheduling..."

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

In other words, avoiding Windows 10 doesn't actually solve the problem unless you take extreme measures in all of your digital life, and doing so will get harder, not easier, going forward. You can probably do it if you care enough, but don't confuse the edge of the market with the mainstream.

I don't think wanting privacy and security is nearly as rare as you're making out. Leaving aside personal preferences, numerous small businesses will be bound by contractual and/or regulatory rules that mean they have to handle various kinds of data securely. That may mean Windows 10 in its current form simply isn't an option for those businesses, as it's impossible to control or audit sensibly.

The fear over people leaving Windows when XP finally ended was there too, and it didn't happen. Instead once support finally ended, people did upgrade.

Except for all the people still running XP, you mean? Including numerous security-sensitive environments like banks and government departments?

I expect if we looked back at the stats, we'd find the majority moved on from Windows XP when Windows 7 arrived and didn't suck as hard as Vista did.

In fact, I completely disagree over your viewpoint on Windows 10 being a poor launch, I don't think MS sees it that way at all. It was far superior to Windows 8 and Vista.

I'm sure MS would like to portray Windows 10 as not being a poor launch, but it seems they've only recently achieved double-digit market share after nearly a year of literally giving it away, and to achieve even that result they've already actively alienated a significant part of their customer base in a variety of ways.

I'm not sure the Windows 10 launch being more successful than two of the biggest flops in recent IT history is a very convincing argument, BTW.

Windows 10 isn't "barely" above Windows XP in marketshare today, it is not even close. XP has finally dropped to the small single digits and it continues to lose support.

That depends on whose numbers you read, of course. Netmarketshare still has XP at over 10%, with 10 now up to around 15%. Even if you question the Netmarketshare stats (and I would agree there are reasons you might), another source I've seen cited a few times that puts XP much lower still agrees that 10 has only around one third of the market share of 7 and that 7 retains around half of the desktop/laptop market.

What would replace MS on the desktop?

Well, firstly, you're assuming that everyone needs to replace MS on the desktop. With the variety of devices available today, it's quite possible that a significant part of the market simply won't buy new PCs at all, preferring other types of device such as tablets for some applications.

The obvious answer for those who do want a more traditional PC set-up is Apple. You say they cost way too much, but plenty of businesses I work with routinely equip their staff with Apple laptops. The TCO isn't so very different, and with Windows 10 the TCO of Microsoft's platform doesn't look nearly as attractive as it used to.

Another possibility that is still niche today but could easily change by 2020 is using some variation of Linux. I don't buy the general "Linux on the desktop" hype any more than the next guy, but if you look at Android and even newer products like Valve's SteamOS you can see its strength as a foundation. With so much now running as web apps or on custom hardware anyway, it's not hard to imagine substantial parts of the market increasingly shifting to entirely non-Microsoft infrastructure.

Re:"Auto-scheduling..."

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

Except that in the real world, there's things like HIPAA and PCIDSS that consider not installing updates unacceptable.

Cite, please? I sometimes work in security sensitive environments, and I have never heard of such a black-and-white rule. In fact, mandating that updates be automatically installed seems like an incredibly bad idea, and I'm fairly sure no sysadmin I know would consider it good practice.

Re:"Auto-scheduling..."

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

Not necessarily. Microsoft's business is now focusing largely on cloud computing.

How's that working out for them?

(In case it's not clear, that was a rhetorical question.)

Re:"Auto-scheduling..."

[FlyHelicopters]

I don't think wanting privacy and security is nearly as rare as you're making out.

I think you have to define "rare", since we can end up talking past each other if we're not careful. :)

I think people care about it when asked, but it is item number 43 on their care list. Paying the bills, feeding the kids, getting to work on time, etc. are all far more important.

So people care, but not enough to change over it.

Leaving aside personal preferences, numerous small businesses will be bound by contractual and/or regulatory rules that mean they have to handle various kinds of data securely. That may mean Windows 10 in its current form simply isn't an option for those businesses, as it's impossible to control or audit sensibly.

While that sounds reasonable, those businesses are going to use it anyway, they have no other choice. My wife is a doctor, HIPPA laws apply to her. I've seen people make the case that Windows 10 doesn't comply with those privacy laws, but frankly lots of doctors use it so either they are all breaking the rules, or no one cares, or it isn't really out of compliance. Take your pick. :)

Except for all the people still running XP, you mean? Including numerous security-sensitive environments like banks and government departments?

Those are becoming more rare every day... Like I said, Windows XP will continue to be used in edge cases for various reasons, but keep in mind that 1980s and 1990s systems are also still being used in edge cases...

There is no need to upgrade an ATM from Windows XP if it has a secure connection to only one other computer and nothing but custom software is running on it, for example.

I expect if we looked back at the stats, we'd find the majority moved on from Windows XP when Windows 7 arrived and didn't suck as hard as Vista did.

Windows Vista did suck, but not for the obvious reasons... It wasn't that bad by the time SP2 came out and computers got better. Windows 7 is, in many ways, just Vista SP3.

Windows 10 biggest problem is that Windows 7 was so good. A lot of people don't currently see a reason to change. That will not hold forever of course, as new hardware comes out that really doesn't work right on Windows 7, as people buy new computers, the market will shift.

But as the free upgrade to Windows 10 has shown, most people are happy with whatever comes on their computer and don't want to change if they don't have to, because they just don't care that much and don't want to learn something new.

Re:"Auto-scheduling..."

[FlyHelicopters]

That depends on whose numbers you read, of course. Netmarketshare still has XP at over 10%, with 10 now up to around 15%. Even if you question the Netmarketshare stats (and I would agree there are reasons you might), another source I've seen cited a few times that puts XP much lower still agrees that 10 has only around one third of the market share of 7 and that 7 retains around half of the desktop/laptop market.

http://www.digitaltrends.com/c...

Keep in mind that you can measure marketshare in many ways, so the various sites don't have to be wrong and be different.

That one says Windows 10 hit 20% of the market after 8 months. That actually strikes me as good, considering that it is competing with Windows 7, which also was quite good.

Keep in mind that Windows 10 has 300 million users after 8 months. How many Apple Mac users are there total?

Before you say people are leaving Windows, look at the totals. Apple sold less than 5 million Macs in 2015, total. Windows 10 gained 300 million users in 8 months. Most companies would love to have Microsoft's "failure". :)

Well, firstly, you're assuming that everyone needs to replace MS on the desktop. With the variety of devices available today, it's quite possible that a significant part of the market simply won't buy new PCs at all, preferring other types of device such as tablets for some applications.

That has happened, to some extent, with tablets and smart phones, a market that MS clearly waited too long on. However that market has cooled off a lot in the past year as well, due to people finding that they don't need new versions of those devices either.

The obvious answer for those who do want a more traditional PC set-up is Apple. You say they cost way too much, but plenty of businesses I work with routinely equip their staff with Apple laptops. The TCO isn't so very different, and with Windows 10 the TCO of Microsoft's platform doesn't look nearly as attractive as it used to.

Except, they don't... see the above numbers...

In 2015, 238 million PCs were sold, less than 5 million of which were Macs. It isn't even close.

http://www.statisticbrain.com/...

Re:"Auto-scheduling..."

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

While that sounds reasonable, those businesses are going to use it anyway, they have no other choice. My wife is a doctor, HIPPA laws apply to her. I've seen people make the case that Windows 10 doesn't comply with those privacy laws, but frankly lots of doctors use it so either they are all breaking the rules, or no one cares, or it isn't really out of compliance. Take your pick. :)

I find that argument disturbing. I also work with sensitive data at times, though not in the US so the regulatory environment isn't exactly the same as HIPAA.

For us, it seems absolutely clear that a system that is known to phone home under a wide range of circumstances and which is known to be able to introduce arbitrary changes via automatic updates cannot possibly be in compliance with our regulatory and contractual data protection obligations and be guaranteed to remain so. Even if it were somehow in compliance today, the forced updates mean we can't possibly know whether it would remain so tomorrow.

There are plenty of alternatives, and plenty of us are using them. Any doctors who aren't should be educated and, if necessary, subject to regulatory action for non-compliance. The same goes for anyone who knowingly supplies such a system for use in an unsuitable environment, such as one handling confidential medical records. There's not even any room for ambiguity here. This one is about as clear-cut as any issue you'll ever see in IT.

Re:"Auto-scheduling..."

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

FYI, the secondary source you cited is actually based on the primary source I cited.

The 20% figure is a share of Windows PCs. It excludes Apple laptops, Linux workstations, mobile devices, etc.

I'm afraid you're also misreading the Apple figures somewhere. Mac sales are much lower than Windows PC sales, of course, but perhaps you confused quarterly figures with annual ones somewhere along the line?

As for overall share of the current installed base, the same primary source currently puts Mac at 8.9% of visits, against 11.6% for Windows 10. That doesn't seem implausible, given that many of the new Windows PCs sold in 2015 won't be running Windows 10. In short, Macs still only represent a modest proportion of total desktop/laptop sales compared to all versions of Windows, but certainly not an insignificant one.

Re:"Auto-scheduling..."

[Mr.CRC]

With Linux and a Linksys router (even without installing FOSS firmware) I need only harden a few critical points, and I have a very high (>99.9%) confidence that no one is reading my tax forms, etc.

With Windows in its present condition, I have absolutely no idea how to be certain that it isn't simply sending all my shit off to lala land.

Re:"Auto-scheduling..."

[Mr.CRC]

Funny how letting some corporation remotely do god knows what to your computer constitutes compliance with a consumer privacy law. We are so far gone.

Re:"Auto-scheduling..."

[rtb61]

M$ should simply have launched the paid for Windows SE versions and free Windows anal probe version at the same time and give people a choice but M$ are renown for not giving customers a choice and trying to force customers to do what M$ want them to do. It seems likely that their goal was to make you pay for the anal probe if they could get away with it but if they can't then Windows SE goes ahead instead of being cancelled. It seems they went to far though and have given Apple and Linux (via Android) to big an opportunity. Losephone is near dead (can't call it Win phone, that would be a lie, they are winning nothing with it). All rather arbitrary as the desktop is rapidly shrinking back to business and power users with notebooks for education (consumer markets big screen all in ones, tablets to control those big screens and smart phones - they are basically just consumers of content, so goes the smart phone choice, so goes that big screen all in one). That message, mostly subconscious, "M$ is watching you masturbate", is killing them.

Re:"Auto-scheduling..."

[FlyHelicopters]

I'm afraid you're also misreading the Apple figures somewhere. Mac sales are much lower than Windows PC sales, of course, but perhaps you confused quarterly figures with annual ones somewhere along the line?

Yep, you might be right...

The 4.8 million Mac sales was a quarterly figure...

Still, even at 20 million a year, it is less than 10% of PC sales. Not bad, given the price of the things, but it is never going to grow unless they change their business model. The damm things are stupid expensive.

My point was that you thought people would leave Windows for Mac. No, they won't, there is zero chance of that happening. A decent Macbook is over $1,000, you can buy a nice Windows laptop for $400. It just isn't even close. Lets not even get into the absurd situation of desktops with the Mac.

The whole damm thing is a Greek tragedy, because I DO think that Mac could be a real contender, if only they would let go of their existing nonsense. But they are making money while the PC companies aren't, so they probably shouldn't change. :)

Market share is vanity while profits are sanity! :)

Re:"Auto-scheduling..."

[FlyHelicopters]

Two points:

1. Microsoft doesn't remotely care about your tax forms. Mine are already in the cloud thanks to OneDrive, so they already have a copy.

2. The government already has them, so you aren't keeping some big secrets from them.

Re:"Auto-scheduling..."

[FlyHelicopters]

For us, it seems absolutely clear that a system that is known to phone home under a wide range of circumstances and which is known to be able to introduce arbitrary changes via automatic updates cannot possibly be in compliance with our regulatory and contractual data protection obligations and be guaranteed to remain so. Even if it were somehow in compliance today, the forced updates mean we can't possibly know whether it would remain so tomorrow.

You may be a prime candidate for Windows Enterprise Edition and run on the LTSB (Long Term Servicing Branch). You would then have 100% control over any and all updates.

Such a thing does require competent sysadmins however since you're often running out of current patch systems and need a security plan to compensate for that.

Re:"Auto-scheduling..."

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

All of that is true today, but remember this is Apple we're talking about. If they saw an opportunity to grow dramatically in the general desktop/laptop market, perhaps with a secondary "budget" brand, they have more than enough resources to make a play for it and 2020 is a long way away in computer years.

Re:"Auto-scheduling..."

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

Enterprise is only available to larger businesses. Smaller businesses or independent professionals, the kind of people who would have used Pro in Windows 7 or 8.x, have nowhere to go with 10.

Re:"Auto-scheduling..."

[FlyHelicopters]

True enough... Honestly... I don't think there is any doubt there is room for them to grow, the question is... "is there room to grow and maintain their profit margins?"

Don't misunderstand me... I recently purchased a Macbook Pro off eBay.

Don't laugh, it was a good deal... It is a late 2013 model with quad core i7, SSD, and Retina display for under $1,200. If they sold at that price new, they would fly off the shelves (a similar new model is over $2,200!)

Even at $1,500 they would be worth a look, but at over $2K? Nuts...

That being said, I bought it to get some more current Apple experience, it has been a few years since I've used a Mac and it is always wise to keep current on the business. I own a computer company so being aware of the other side is smart. My OS X experience is about 5 versions out of date now, time to get current. :)

---

For what it is worth, I don't think Apple has to price as cheap as HP/Dell/Acer do... but they are so far out of the ballpark and offer so few good options, they are killing their chances.

The new Mac Mini is a good example. No RAM upgrades? Dual core only? In 2016? What are they thinking? The $700 Mac Mini (the only one worth a serious look) has about $350 worth of hardware in it. If it was $499 I wouldn't mind it and could even recommend it. At $699? You've got to be kidding...

Likewise, the iMac 27" is nice, but $1,800? Drop the requirement for the 5k display, frankly most people are fine with 1080p, but a 1440p wouldn't be that expensive.

Make an iMac for $999 with a 27" 1440p monitor and you'd sell tons of them.

Likewise, where the heck is a real desktop computer? The lack of gaming also prevents Mac from really taking off. A proper tower computer is needed for that.

Re:"Auto-scheduling..."

[FlyHelicopters]

5 computers is a "large business"?

If you have 5 or more computers and they already come with Windows, you can upgrade them to Enterprise for a reasonable fee.

Sadly, MS doesn't make this easy, you have to pickup the phone and call them. :)

Re:"Auto-scheduling..."

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

I don't think there is any doubt there is room for them to grow, the question is... "is there room to grow and maintain their profit margins?"

It would be a different commercial strategy, for sure. That's why I think a secondary brand would be more likely than trying to push their premium Macbook products at a lower price point.

Re:"Auto-scheduling..."

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

There are millions of small family businesses, independent professionals, or even somewhat larger businesses that aren't IT-centric, that won't meet that threshold and/or won't have the time or IT staff to jump through all Microsoft's hoops, yet which still have similar requirements for security, data protection and stability. It's basically the entire (business) market for what used to be Pro.

Re:"Auto-scheduling..."

[jbmartin6]

Not killer features yet, but I really like what they are doing with the architecture underlying the Windows store apps. They made some nice strides towards a much cleaner install/uninstall process as well as containerizing/sandboxing user applications. In the other direction using Hyper-V and a VM to host core security processes is also pretty interesting. I also like the native support for desktop switching.

Re:"Auto-scheduling..."

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

I agree that having a simple, robust and secure way to install, update and uninstall applications would be a huge win for any of the major desktop OSes. We should have had that decades ago, and I don't think we'd have seen the industry move in quite the same direction in recent years if Windows had provided better mechanisms to manage installed software back then.

It would be great if any moves Microsoft is making in that direction now would be for full applications and not just the kind of toy apps we see on mobile app stores, and if they would support third party installation and not require jumping through hoops with some sort of Microsoft-controlled store. I'm not sure whether those will be the case, though.

Re:"Auto-scheduling..."

[Mr.CRC]

No, I'm not that worried about M$ per se. And yes, I assume that the .gov already backs up all my data.

The point is that when the OS is uncontrollably doing unknown things, then it is impossible for me to even estimate how well I am protected from the common computer crooks. Whether they be trying to attack me from the wire, or from inside M$, or by attacking M$, etc.

Don't even try to tell me that this is paranoia. My mother was already scammed by crooks who impersonated me after getting hold of the .gov's database of security clearances.

The more data and control of machines holding that data is out of the direct control of the owner, the worse off we will be.

Re:"Auto-scheduling..."

[Mr.CRC]

If you are astute you should know that Windows crash reports have been intercepted off the net and used to reveal vulnerabilities about particular machines.

A computer should do nothing without the explicit command or permission of the owner.

Re:"Auto-scheduling..."

[Mr.CRC]

If your tax forms are in the cloud without first being locally encrypted (by you, explicitly, not integrated into the service in a way that you can't be sure how it's really being done) then you are just plain nuts.

What a coincidence...

[Anonymous Coward]

I have scheduled a migration to Linux Mint on the exact same date!

Well, jolly.

Re: What a coincidence...

[thundercattt]

Same day I no longer dual boot. Debian 100% + virtualbox with 7 as needed. I actually attempted the "upgrade" under virtualbox from 7 to 10, it failed. Good thing I wasn't a Window's 7 user

Dear Microsoft

[U2xhc2hkb3QgU3Vja3M]

Allow Windows XP and Windows Vista users to upgrade to Windows 10 and you'll see a lot of updates.

Re:Dear Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

And a lot of complaints as those XP / Vista machines struggle to boot due to lack of drivers.

Re:Dear Microsoft

[K. S. Kyosuke]

But how would they make money on you? ;)

Re:Dear Microsoft

[U2xhc2hkb3QgU3Vja3M]

Online services, subscriptions and app store, of course!

Re:Dear Microsoft

[__aaclcg7560]

And a lot of complaints as those XP / Vista machines struggle to boot due to lack of drivers.

That would true for Windows XP-certified computers, but not for Windows Vista-certified computers. I rebuilt my computer nine years ago for Windows Vista. I had no problems upgrading to Windows 7/8/8.1/10. For older devices that don't have a Windows 10 driver, I manually install the Windows Vista driver to get them working again.

Re:Dear Microsoft

[BarbaraHudson]

The real question is whether computers running 7, 8, and 8.1 can be downgraded to XP in a dual-boot or virtual machine scenario with another OS that doesn't try to p0wn your computer.

Re:Dear Microsoft

[Desler]

Not really as XP has already dramatically dropped off in usage share. And Vista? It never had more than 15% usage share even at its peaked. It's share cratered quickly once 7 came out.

Re:Dear Microsoft

[FlyHelicopters]

And a lot of complaints as those XP / Vista machines struggle to boot due to lack of drivers.

Lord why?

Windows 10 installs on 10+ year old machines just fine without any complaint. It will even install on a mid-level Pentium 4 without complaint (32-bit version), abit at performance levels that aren't very useful.

Lots and lots of 2007-2009 machines have XP on them back when Vista sucked and people bought XP boxes instead.

Re:Dear Microsoft

[Bing Tsher E]

Virtual Box is still free from Oracle, and does an excellent job of running XP on a Windows 7 host.

Re:Dear Microsoft

[Hognoxious]

You sell at a loss and make it up on volume. Were you asleep all through the 90s?

Re:Dear Microsoft

[AchilleTalon]

Maybe that's what they plan to do. In the mean time, they just want to leverage the deadline date to push as much as they can people to upgrade. I believe they just want all previous versions of Windows to disappear as quickly as possible and erase the past.

Re:Dear Microsoft

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

I believe they just want all previous versions of Windows to disappear as quickly as possible and erase the past.

Well, they can hope, but given that the big announcements recently have been things like Windows 10 passing Windows XP in market share or Windows 7 dropping just below 50%, I don't think those previous versions are going anywhere any time soon.

Re: Dear Microsoft

[armanox]

No, Apple just decides that the machine is too old to upgrade. In there defense, outside of the G5, most machines got quite a few OS upgrades (the MBP 1,1 that shipped with OS X 10.4 went to 10.6, then the Core 2 era ones all go to at least Lion, some even still supported.

Re:Dear Microsoft

[hairyfeet]

Sorry bullshit alert. I have several win 7 boxes at the shop (including one I intend to keep as my netbox) and not a single one will work with Windows 10 unless you consider a PC without Internet access to be "working".

The Vista machines? I have found to be even worse, you have to remember that Nforce boards were REAL popular during the Vista/ early Win 7 boxes and the reasons why are obvious...really decent iGPUs, one vendor to provide everything, not bad on power usage, and guess what will never ever run on windows 10? If you said Nforce boards Ethernet? You sir win a cookie. BTW the same is true of many of the older Realtek and Via networking chips as well, they work just fine in Win 7/8.1 but even if you attempt to use compatibility mode in Win 10? You are never gonna get Internet again on that system.

I have attempted the "free upgrade" on I don't know how many systems (so the user could take advantage of the free upgrade later if they so chose) and I learned something important when it comes to windows 10...if the system didn't come with Windows 8? Yeah its a fucking crapshoot at best, and a VERY large chunk of Vista/7 era wireless and wired networking will never ever in a million fucking years work with that OS, you are just wasting your time.

Just one more reason windows 10 is a piss poor OS, I don't know how many times I have laughed about being able to use older drivers without issue on newer versions of Windows, but just like every other damned thing they have done since windows mist8ke they apparently fucked that shit up as well...sigh. Is it too late to get the Ballmernator back?

Re:Dear Microsoft

[anabolenkopen]

what a strugle why not buy a new computer?

Re:Dear Microsoft

[squiggleslash]

FWIW, I can see how he would be right. Vista was horrifically inefficient, and required machines with much better specs than many Windows 7 PCs to run usefully. Chances are if you're still running Vista, you have a minimum of 4G or more of memory (probably much more), a decent CPU, and a half decent GPU, whereas Windows 7 is quite usable in 2G or less on a machine with an Atom and Intel Integrated graphics.

I am running Windows 10 on two machines at home, a former Windows 7 laptop with 2G, on which it stinks, and a former Windows 8.1 tablet with 1G, on which, surprisingly perhaps (better CPU?) it runs acceptably. I'm not sure what terrible configuration your other Windows 7 PCs have, but there's quite a good chance you'd have never gotten Vista to run on them either.

Re:Dear Microsoft

[Wdomburg]

OS X is free to run on hardware sold by the same company publishing OS X. Not quite the same thing.

Linux is free, but only because the cost of development and maintenance is spread among a large number of organizations (many of whom sell non-free versions). Not quite the same thing.

For better or worse Microsoft represents a different model. You don't get free upgrades like you do with Apple, but you are not tethered to a single vendor for your hardware. You don't get a completely free platform like Linux, but you get the benefits of an arguably more coherent desktop platform and better funded development of emerging features.

I ran Linux exclusively for twenty years before buying a Surface. I considered installing Linux on it, at least for dual boot, but the prospect of trying work through the myriad of issues with UEFI, HiDPI, multi-touch support on the trackpad, keyboard add/remove detection, power management, bluetooth support, digitizer support and so forth, I decided it just wasn't worth it. I now have a Linux VM under Hyper-V, and will probably not even use that much once the Linux subsystem for Windows goes GA.

Is it an ideal platform? No. But the investment they've made in a unified platform definitely shows. It actually does work well as both a tablet and a laptop, and the transition is pretty seamless. Apple may get there eventually, but they don't even have the hardware for OS X and the experience on iOS still lags significantly behind Windows (no pointer support, only tiled window management, limited app availability, etc). Linux probably won't get there without Wayland or possibly Mir, neither of which have made it into a mainline release yet, and both of which have been mostly chasing feature parity with X11 instead of developing new features.

Re: Dear Microsoft

[kilfarsnar]

Isn't that exactly what Apple does?

No, it's not. Apple at least can grandfather hardware. For example my old Macbook will not run an OS more recent than 10.6, because the hardware isn't up to it.

Re:Dear Microsoft

[__aaclcg7560]

what a strugle why not buy a new computer?

I'm not quite ready to do a complete rebuild. I did get a new motherboard to replace the existing nine-year-old motherboard, allowing me to upgrade to an eight-core processor and 64MB RAM in the near future. Maybe in another nine years I'll rebuild everything.

Re:Dear Microsoft

[__aaclcg7560]

FWIW, I can see how he would be right. Vista was horrifically inefficient, and required machines with much better specs than many Windows 7 PCs to run usefully. Chances are if you're still running Vista, you have a minimum of 4G or more of memory (probably much more), a decent CPU, and a half decent GPU, whereas Windows 7 is quite usable in 2G or less on a machine with an Atom and Intel Integrated graphics.

The system I built for Windows Vista was an AMD 3.1GHz dual-core processor, 4GB DDR2 RAM, Radeon 3850 video card, and an AMD 690-chipset motherboard. Processor got upgraded to an AMD quad-core 3.2GHz and the video cards replaced several times over the years. I just got an AMD 760-chipset motherboard, which will allow me to upgrade to an eight-core processor and 64GB DDR3 RAM.

Re:Dear Microsoft

[myowntrueself]

And a lot of complaints as those XP / Vista machines struggle to boot due to lack of drivers.

That would true for Windows XP-certified computers, but not for Windows Vista-certified computers. I rebuilt my computer nine years ago for Windows Vista. I had no problems upgrading to Windows 7/8/8.1/10. For older devices that don't have a Windows 10 driver, I manually install the Windows Vista driver to get them working again.

One quirk I've encountered is a laptop, which came with Windows 7 SP1. Last year I noticed it had a Windows 10 upgrade available, so I installed the upgrade and it was fine. Then there was a Windows 10 update and the laptop could no longer boot. I took it back to Windows 7 (from the factory reset partition) and it was fine, still had the Windows 10 upgrade available. The other week I took a backup and tried the Windows 10 upgrade again. It couldn't get through the upgrade, rebooted itself, Windows rolled it back to Windows 7.

The surprising thing about this is that it DID WORK! And then it stopped working...

The laptop is a Sony Vaio...

Re:Dear Microsoft

[myowntrueself]

The real question is whether computers running 7, 8, and 8.1 can be downgraded to XP in a dual-boot or virtual machine scenario with another OS that doesn't try to p0wn your computer.

All OS's p0wn your computer.

Re:Dear Microsoft

[__aaclcg7560]

Sorry bullshit alert.

Windows Vista was a resource hog. You want it to run well, you go beyond the minimum recommended spec. I started off with AMD 3.1GHz dual-core processor, 4GB DDR2 RAM, Radeon 3850 video card, and an AMD 690-chipset motherboard. Processor got upgraded to an AMD 3.2GHz quad-core and the video cards got replaced several times over the years. I just recent got an AMD 760-chipset motherboard to replace the nine-year-old motherboard, allowing me to upgrade to an eight-core processor and 64GB DDR3 memory in the near future. Here's the secret about Windows (or any other operating system): the more resources you throw at it, the better it works.

Re:Dear Microsoft

[__aaclcg7560]

The laptop is a Sony Vaio.

My inexpensive Dell laptop had no problem upgrading from Windows 7 to Windows 10. However, I did replace the 2GB RAM module with an 8GB RAM module.

Re:Dear Microsoft

[myowntrueself]

The laptop is a Sony Vaio.

My inexpensive Dell laptop had no problem upgrading from Windows 7 to Windows 10. However, I did replace the 2GB RAM module with an 8GB RAM module.

Yeah well it is almost like running Java; Q) How much RAM does this application need? A) How much can you physically install in the box?

Re:Dear Microsoft

[toddestan]

Windows 10 requires the NX bit, which rules out most of the Pentium 4 processors, and virtually all of the 32-bit ones. None of the Socket 478 P4's will work. The later LGA775 ones should work if they have EM64T. There may be 1 or 2 models with the NX-bit and no EM64T - I always get confused with the way Intel arbitrarily turns features on and off on their models.

Re:Dear Microsoft

[Mr.CRC]

WTF? WinXP ran great with no sense of being limited by HW with a 1.5GHz single core and 1-2GB RAM. Vista was an abomination. The solution to such a thing isn't more HW. It's install XP.

Re:Dear Microsoft

[__aaclcg7560]

Vista was an abomination. The solution to such a thing isn't more HW. It's install XP.

This is my gaming rig. The future of video games and hardware drivers was with Windows Vista and later operating systems. XP has grown long in the tooth.

Re:Dear Microsoft

[FlyHelicopters]

Windows 10 requires the NX bit

It says it does, but it can be bypassed... It isn't something that most people should do, such machines are hardly usable on Windows 10 anyway, but there is a way around it.

Re:Dear Microsoft

[hairyfeet]

I'm telling ya its the drivers. If it came with Win 8? It'll run fine, if it came with Win 7, even if the hardware is a monster? Its a crapshoot and will often run like shit.

Like everything else in Win 10 driver compatibility is half baked and buggy as fuck, but since its using 8.1 as the base those drivers work.

BTW FWIW the boxes I used? All WELL beyond the minimums, one C2D, the rest were all quads, and all had 4GB of RAM and at least decent iGPUs, 2 of which had Geforce 210s. All ran like shit, most would never connect to a network. All work fine on Win 7-8.1.

Is it time for a class-action lawsuit?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because it really seems like it is, to stop Microsoft from tampering with my computer system.

Time to sue

[AmiMoJo]

If this happens to me, I'm taking Microsoft to Small Claims Court. It's cheap, don't need a lawyer, and Microsoft has to come to my local court to defend themselves. All I need as evidence that it wasn't user error is a few print outs of the numerous news stories on the subject. Judgement is on balance of probability so that's more than adequate.

Re:Time to sue

[Anonymous Coward]

Make sure that you have the W10 hotfix set to "IGNORE" recorded first to illustrate that Microsoft re-enabled it against your wishes :)

Re:Time to sue

[arth1]

If this happens to me, I'm taking Microsoft to Small Claims Court. It's cheap, don't need a lawyer, and Microsoft has to come to my local court to defend themselves. All I need as evidence that it wasn't user error is a few print outs of the numerous news stories on the subject. Judgement is on balance of probability so that's more than adequate.

I'm pretty sure that the original EULA contains language that explicitly prevents you from going to small court where you are, but have to arbitrate any claims in a specific jurisdiction. Whether that shrink wrap clause is enforceable or not where you live is likely something that cannot be determined by a small court, and you'd likely have to file a full lawsuit in order for the small court to accept your petition.

Re:Time to sue

[Anonymous Coward]

In the EU (and other parts of the world - outside America) we cannot sign or click away our LEGAL RIGHTS.

Re:Time to sue

[AmiMoJo]

Fortunately, the law here doesn't allow such clauses. You can't give up your rights with a contract, let alone a dubious EULA.

Re:Time to sue

[pixelpusher220]

Indeed the EULA of WINDOWS 7 prevents you from going to small claims court.

The EULA if Windows 10 is irrelevant as you didn't agree to it.

Re:Time to sue

[Registered Coward v2]

That is an interesting approach; just be sure your jurisdiction doesn't allow them to move it from small claims or appeal and tie you up in years of expensive litigation.

Re:Time to sue

[Ken D]

Doesn't matter if you agreed to it or not.
Microsoft would need to appear in small claims court to assert its claim that you had agreed not to go to small claims court and make a motion to dismiss.

Re:Time to sue

[epyT-R]

but you can get thrown in prison (or pay a fine) for hurting someone's feewings ('hate' speech).

Every country has its idiotic laws.

Re:Time to sue

[Pulzar]

Fortunately, the law here doesn't allow such clauses. You can't give up your rights with a contract, let alone a dubious EULA.

Where is "here", and what rights exactly are we talking about? The right to sue in small court? I'm not sure that many countries explicitly name that as one of your rights.

Re:Time to sue

[AmiMoJo]

The UK. Everyone has the right to legal redress, including the Small Claims Court, and you can't give that up no matter what you sign.

This was the case in the UK before it joined the EU, but the EU has also adopted the principal so all EU countries are the same.

Re:Time to sue

[pixelpusher220]

It doesn't matter. The product you're suing over is not Win 7. It's Win 10, which since THEY installed it without your permission - the EULA simply can't be applied. The Win 7 EULA is left up to existing legal wrangling since you did in theory install (or buy it already installed) by choice.

The problem is not the Win 7 Install, it's the Win 10.

Re:Time to sue

[barc0001]

My dad had one of these this morning. Contrary to the /. pitchfork crowd's popular opinion you can still say no and opt out completely. All it took him was about 2 seconds to say no to it.

Re:Time to sue

[Calydor]

The kind of hate speech that gets you thrown in jail is trying to stir up a crowd to go lynch the nearest gay couple or similar.

You know, incitement to aggravated assault and such. Pretty sure that's illegal in America too.

Remember: Your freedom to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose.

Re:Time to sue

[armanox]

Depends on which dialog you are presented with - I've seen a couple different dialogs come up, and with focus stealing it's pretty easy to hit the "Enter" or "Space" keys without ever really seeing the dialog box.

Re:Time to sue

[bingoUV]

It is just an update to Win 7. Do people agree to the EULA of each and every update to Win 7 ?

Re:Time to sue

[AmiMoJo]

The problem is that it tries hard to mislead you. The window says "upgrade now or later", and clicking later schedules an upgrade for when you are asleep and unable to block it. The only way to say "no" is to click the close control on the Window, and all that doe it make you ask again.

Now it looks like they are just scheduling it to happen without even asking, with no easy way to abort.

Re:Time to sue

[myowntrueself]

Fortunately, the law here doesn't allow such clauses. You can't give up your rights with a contract, let alone a dubious EULA.

Yeah most places don't let you contract out of the law. Otherwise contract killings would, uh, make a killing!

Re: Time to sue

[epyT-R]

Adults don't get so upset over being called a name that they resort to violence or some other crazy action. How is 'denying the holocaust' so special? Sure, it's a dumb thing to say, but having laws against it says more about the societal infantilization than anything else.

Re:Time to sue

[Mr.CRC]

Bullshit. You can get thrown in jail just for calling Ergodan an asshole.

Re:Time to sue

[Coren22]

Don't you have to prove damage to actually get anything out of the action though? Did they damage your computer? How about the fact that you can downgrade quite easily? Also, all of these articles seem to have one thing in common, they are BS to get people up in arms. MS has never allowed Windows 10 to auto install with no user interaction, it is fud to say they have.

Re:Time to sue

[AmiMoJo]

You have to show financial loss. Time wasted can be charged at commercial rates. My rates are pretty high because my time is valuable and my skills are valuable.

Confirmed

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

Confirmed.

Yes, this happened to my instance of Win 7 on my laptop just a few days ago. I *never* gave permission for a Win 10 upgrade and *specifically* deselected the stealth updates....and fucking Microsoft went ahead and "upgraded" it to Win 10 anyway.

But it gets worse.

Upon booting I'm presented with a Login screen that insists on a password. This machine never had a password on it, but now it does and I have no idea what it is. I cannot get in to my own PC now. Apparently I need some sort of Windows Live account or some other password, but I honestly have no idea. I am locked out of that entire partition.

My files are there, but I can't get to them. I can't login and so I'm literally locked out of my own PC thanks to the Win 10 forced upgrade.

Fortunately, I installed Linux Mint on it a while ago, and so that's what Ill be using on it from now on I guess. I can boot into that partition at least.

Thanks Microsoft, you shit-eating pukebags.

Re:Confirmed

[arth1]

My files are there, but I can't get to them. I can't login and so I'm literally locked out of my own PC thanks to the Win 10 forced upgrade.

Fortunately, I installed Linux Mint on it a while ago, and so that's what Ill be using on it from now on I guess. I can boot into that partition at least.

And now you know the value of backups in general, and bare metal backups in particular.

With the price of a good sized NAS these days being around the cost of a dinner for two at a restaurant, I have sympathy for those that shit like this happened to, but none whatsoever for their not being able to revert.

Re:Confirmed

[BarbaraHudson]

Turn off ALL updates until July 30th. You can be sure that Microsoft considers you moving to 10 as "critical" - at least to them.

Re:Confirmed

[FlyHelicopters]

Upon booting I'm presented with a Login screen that insists on a password. This machine never had a password on it, but now it does and I have no idea what it is. I cannot get in to my own PC now.

Something is wrong with this story, because the above makes no sense.

More likely you have an infected computer or someone else played with it or you don't know what you're doing.

Windows 7/8 upgrades to 10 don't change or insert passwords.

Re:Confirmed

[Angeret]

This is not about having a backup regime though, is it? This is about an unwanted and forced update which has locked the owner of a computer out of his system. There's likely going to be a lot of people who don't have backups, especially those who believe the old MS hype that Windows can fix itself, etc, etc. I don't think you'd get much mileage telling them it's their own fault for not having backups.

Re:Confirmed

[David_Hart]

Try this:

http://www.chntpw.com/reset-fo...

Make sure to rename the files back to normal after you get back in to your system.

Re:Confirmed

[flyingfsck]

Well, if the Windows disk partition isn't encrypted, then you can mount it and read the data from Linux.

Re:Confirmed

[johanw]

Not yet. I bet when windows 7 gets out of support they label Windows 10 as a critical security update.

Re:Confirmed

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows 10 will be a critical update. They've already moved it from recommended to important.

Re:Confirmed

[pixelpusher220]

It's about an unwanted and forced update that can be fairly quickly remedied by reverting to a backup prior to the forced upgrade.

Re:Confirmed

[Razed By TV]

In my general paranoia of not upgrading software that isn't broken, I never upgraded from 8 to 8.1. Maybe I'm open to all sorts of attack vectors from malevolent parties, but I feel safer knowing that the party that can hide their malware the easiest (Microsoft) isn't getting their software automatically installed on my machine.
Of course, I never really thought it would come this.

There are a couple of software solutions that claim to disable the Windows 10 upgrade. I can't vouch for them, but maybe someone else can. They are:
GRC Never10 https://www.grc.com/never10.ht...
GWC Control Panel http://blog.ultimateoutsider.c...

Re:Confirmed

[rudy_wayne]

This is not about having a backup regime though, is it? This is about an unwanted and forced update which has locked the owner of a computer out of his system. .

No, it's actually about BOTH. Yes, Microsoft is evil and what they are doing should be illegal.

However, a very long time ago, when I knew very little about computers, it occurred to me that I should make a backup in case something went wrong. Nobody told me to do it, it just seemed like basic common sense. If you aren't able to revert back to a previously save backup, then you are too stupid to be using a computer.

Re:Confirmed

[arth1]

This is not about having a backup regime though, is it? This is about an unwanted and forced update which has locked the owner of a computer out of his system. There's likely going to be a lot of people who don't have backups, especially those who believe the old MS hype that Windows can fix itself, etc, etc. I don't think you'd get much mileage telling them it's their own fault for not having backups.

It's not their fault that the forced upgrade happened. That's all Microsoft's fault, and a crappy thing.

But the complaint about being locked out is due to not having taken any reasonable precautions, like a backup.

It's like complaining about getting an unwanted child when prophylactics were readily available and affordable.

Take some responsibility, people! Even if Microsoft are being dicks, that doesn't absolve you of not doing your own due diligence. Whether it's a forced Microsoft downgrade, a failed hard drive, a vulnerable browser plugin wiping your drive, a kid playing with your computer, or any other situation, having a backup is a very reasonable precaution. And if you don't have one, you deserve derision for that, just as Microsoft deserves scorn for making you find out the hard way.

Re:Confirmed

[e432776]

That is appalling. Have you contacted MS about this? The writing is on the wall that Microsoft wants to take computer control away from the user. In some ways we should have seen this coming- how many times have I read gripes about users not knowing what they are doing in terms of managing their systems? - but it seems that the cure may be as bad as the disease. Worse for those who did know what they were doing.

Re:Confirmed

[Anonymous Coward]

Once Windows 10 was installed on my computer, yes I opted for this.
It did ask me to enter my windows cloud (or what ever it is called) account detail and password, because it is the only way to get into your system.
They do not allow local passwords anymore, they only allow cloud passwords, you can have a pin code, that logs you into the cloud so you can get into your system.

In my case I had to create a windows cloud account on my OS X computer. Then I could use this cloud account to link to my local account on my Windows 10 machine so I could actually get into my system.

Re:Confirmed

[SlowMovingTarget]

Meh. I don't auto-install any updates on Windows. I require prompts.

Granted it is a major pain in the tuckus to find information about every single patch from non-Microsoft sources to be sure they're actually patches and not landing craft in camoflage. I also run GWX Control Panel, which has been a godsend for keeping Win10 off the machine (I was actually at the point where Win10 was trying to install itself and I hard-booted and did a system restore).

I'd have switched to Linux already if I weren't a Windows gamer.

Re:Confirmed

[Hamsterdan]

Depends on what you're using it for. The only reason my Media Center machine has a password is to enable media shares on it. It auto logins. The only things on it are recorded TV shows and movies, so no big deal if it gets stolen/p0wned.

Re:Confirmed

[Voyager529]

With the price of a good sized NAS these days being around the cost of a dinner for two at a restaurant

I went to a *nice* steakhouse on Valentine's day in New York City, and two 18-ounce boneless steaks, three sides, an appetizer, two glasses of red wine (mid-range), two cappuccinos, and dessert cost about $250.

A drive-free Netgear or Synology NAS costs about $220 on Newegg. 3TB hard disks are about $100 a pop on sale, so we'll assume a simple RAID-1 to start out on. Not exactly "good sized" by my standards personally (My NAS has 15TB raw), but we'll roll with it.

Where the hell are you going for dinner??

Re:Confirmed

[Hamsterdan]

1- No, the share still has a password.
2- They'll have to get through the firewall, IDS, VPN, you know the rest of the story...
3- It's not even on the same VLAN. (it's on BLUE, my LAN is on GREEN, and that machine is only accessible from authorized MACs/IPs). Yes, I have to authorize them one by one. (hint: the router is an appliance, not a dlink toy from Walmart). The only devices that are allowed to access that share are my phone, tablet and main computer, and only by VPN.

not all users are complete morons...

Re:Confirmed

[bigfinger76]

OP never stated that he/she didn't have a backup. In fact, it wasn't even mentioned, because backups are not the subject of TFA or OP's post. It's off-topic.

We get it. Backups are important. Enough with the self-righteous, smug lectures already.

Re:Confirmed

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

We don't install any updates on older Windows versions by default any more. The risk of business being disrupted or security/stability being compromised because of Microsoft now appears to outweigh the risk of those things happening because someone got through all our other precautions and successfully attacked the system.

Obviously we do still install some security updates, but only selectively once we've identified what they are really for, we've read up on them to make sure there's nothing sneaky being included as well, and we've confirmed that we would actually benefit from each specific update.

Re:Confirmed

[nadaou]

Why can't you access the Windows partitions from Mint?
As long as they aren't already in fstab they should appear as greyed out icons on the desktop. That's true for XFCE live usb booting with xubuntu anyway, mint should be similar.

Re:Confirmed

[inode_buddha]

You can get the same dinner in Buffalo for less than $100. As for a NAS, I never throw out old HDD's until they physically fail. An old 80 gig drive is plenty to backup /home

Re:Confirmed

[Kjella]

Something is wrong with this story, because the above makes no sense. More likely you have an infected computer or someone else played with it or you don't know what you're doing. Windows 7/8 upgrades to 10 don't change or insert passwords.

If I recall correctly there's a feature to log on automatically, so if Windows 10 reverts to asking for that password you set once long, long ago when you installed it that might be practically equivalent to being locked out.

Re:Confirmed

[blind biker]

I am sorry about that accident - preventing you from being able to access your own files like this... seems like some kind of malpractice on Microsoft's part. I wonder if they'll be sued for this?

As for me, I have disabled all updates on all my Win 7 computers. I've been following this policy since the first signs of Microsoft going rogue with Win 7 updates started to appear. In spite of all the ridicule and scorn, I have never regretted this practice.

Re:Confirmed

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

There are a couple of software solutions that claim to disable the Windows 10 upgrade. I can't vouch for them, but maybe someone else can. They are:

GRC Never10 https://www.grc.com/never10.ht...

GWC Control Panel http://blog.ultimateoutsider.c...

Thanks. It's too late for me but hopefully this will help someone else.

Re:Confirmed

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

I installed Mint on it a while ago so I can still get to everything. And that's the partition I'll be booting into from now on, no need or reason to ever try and boot the Windows partition again.

Re:Confirmed

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

Thank you, I may give this a try and see if it works. Thanks again, David!

Re:Confirmed

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

As for me, I have disabled all updates on all my Win 7 computers. I've been following this policy since the first signs of Microsoft going rogue with Win 7 updates started to appear. In spite of all the ridicule and scorn, I have never regretted this practice.

I did this on my desktop PC with GWX Control Panel but I neglected to do it on my laptop.

Clearly, I should have been less trusting of Microsoft. I mean, silly me- I thought I owned my PC.

Re:Confirmed

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

I have sympathy for those that shit like this happened to, but none whatsoever for their not being able to revert.

Oh, I have backups, but that's not really what this is about. Pay attention: this is about an absolutely unrequested update that locked my PC, and is now demanding a password that does not exist. Now do you understand? (I can type slower if that would help.)

Re:Confirmed

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

OP never stated that he/she didn't have a backup. In fact, it wasn't even mentioned, because backups are not the subject of TFA or OP's post. It's off-topic.

You are correct.

I do, in fact, have backups, but that's not the issue here, as you pointed out.

Re:Confirmed

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

Why can't you access the Windows partitions from Mint?

I can. I think I may have mentioned that in another post.

The real issue, though, is that this little switcharoo happened against my wishes. I absolutely did *not* want Microsoft to do this and I made sure not to allow any of the stealth upgrades. They managed to slide one in anyway.

Re:Confirmed

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

That is appalling. Have you contacted MS about this?

No, because I'm pretty certain that they don't give a shit. This was a deliberate move on their part, not an accidental upgrade. You don't accidentally upgrade your whole OS by mistake...this was planned and I'm not the only one this has happened to by far. Search for win 10 upgrade locked me out and you'll find plenty of people experiencing the same thing.

Re: Confirmed

[pixelpusher220]

You get the Win 10 prevention apps this won't be a problem. It's not like the upgrade happens exactly at boot time. Never 10 from Steve Gibson

Easy enough even my 70 yr old mother was able to run it successfully on her own :)

Re:Confirmed

[cfalcon]

Backing up data is reasonably simple, provided you have the cash to shell out for some kind of backup device, and the time and discipline to keep a reasonably recent backup. Of course, cash, time, and discipline are all limited resources- maybe those could have been better spent at some manner of industry, or merely used to benefit yourself in a more difficult to quantify way. But, no matter.

Backing up the state of a drive fully is a bit more odd, especially if you hope to do so in a way that restores well. You generally need something to write a boot sector, put everything in the correct places, etc. I bet if your drive were to go caput, you'd end up building a fresh system on a new drive, and then building up all the programs you need from online, and then restore your data from your backup. That's not anything like a backup, really, right? But many would do it, because it is easy.

Re:Confirmed

[KiloByte]

Around my place (podunk Poland) that food in a nice restaurant costs 10 times less. The hardware costs more (in absolute terms!). And Poland is a mid-range EU country, making it way above world's average. So GP's price comparison is pretty deeply flawed.

This doesn't excuse you from not having backups, though. If you're vulnerable to Windows 10 upgrades, you'd also suffer from crypto locker malware. And even the best OS won't save you from hardware disk failure. Or a fire.

Re: Confirmed

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

No, I work in an environment where security actually matters. The grown-ups do their homework and take measures that actually work, instead of trusting a third party that has been shown not to be reliable.

Re:Confirmed

[Calydor]

So what happens if your net connection is down? Do you suddenly not have a working computer anymore?

That's really awesome when most router setups are accessed from, y'know, a working computer ...

Re:Confirmed

[caseih]

Microsoft certainly wants you to use cloud login, but it's not required. Granted they don't make it easy, but during install there is link to click to tell it to use a local username and password only. And you can decouple your login from your cloud login as well after the fact.

http://www.networkworld.com/ar...

http://www.howtogeek.com/23054...

Re:Confirmed

[FlyHelicopters]

3) I have a pretty good idea what I'm doing.

The available evidence would indicate that to not be a true statement.

Actually, it did/does. I was a little skeptical myself at first, but I am now living proof that Microsoft does indeed do unrequested upgrades to Win 10.

Which means nothing, because you replied to something I did not say.

I said Windows 10 doesn't insert or change passwords, and it doesn't. You had a password from long ago if Windows 10 has one there. Or you set one up without knowing what you were doing.

There is no random password feature.

Re:Confirmed

[FlyHelicopters]

That strikes me as possible... but again, that is someone who doesn't know what they are doing and didn't bother to learn.

I know that might sound harsh, but I get sick of people who get popups, click on them, then ask me "what did that do?"

I ask, "well, what did it say?" and they reply, "I don't know, it was a bunch of words and it was in my way so I clicked on it to get rid of it".

I kid you not, hundreds and hundreds of times I've heard that.

Re:Confirmed

[thegarbz]

False false and false. You most definitely can have a PC without any connection to any cloud or any Microsoft account. Click the text in the bottom left of the screen which asked you for those details and select skip.

Don't do a half assed job of reading your screen and then very foul.

Re:Confirmed

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

You had a password from long ago if Windows 10 has one there. Or you set one up without knowing what you were doing.

No, and no.

Thanks for playing, better luck next time.

Re: Confirmed

[ShaunC]

You get the Win 10 prevention apps this won't be a problem.

Sure, and if you send me a hundred bucks, I won't burn down your house next month!

Re: Confirmed

[pixelpusher220]

it's free...

Re:Confirmed

[Darinbob]

Great, go and dump on everyone's grandmothers who phone up to ask what happened to their computers. It's one thing to complain to people who do IT help support all day long, but you really can't expect everyone in the world to drive to gran's every weekend to do another backup.

Re:Confirmed

[arth1]

Great, go and dump on everyone's grandmothers who phone up to ask what happened to their computers. It's one thing to complain to people who do IT help support all day long, but you really can't expect everyone in the world to drive to gran's every weekend to do another backup.

Which is why backups these days are automated.
Pretty much any consumer grade NAS comes with software for automating the process.
Setting it up is so easy that even a grandson can do it.

Re:Confirmed

[arth1]

I do, in fact, have backups, but that's not the issue here, as you pointed out.

It is, because you also said, and I quote:

I cannot get in to my own PC now. Apparently I need some sort of Windows Live account or some other password, but I honestly have no idea. I am locked out of that entire partition.

My files are there, but I can't get to them. I can't login and so I'm literally locked out of my own PC thanks to the Win 10 forced upgrade.

Fortunately, I installed Linux Mint on it a while ago, and so that's what Ill be using on it from now on I guess. I can boot into that partition at least.

That would not be the case if you had backups. The above is pretty much telling the world that you can't restore from a backup.

Re:Confirmed

[arth1]

Oh, I have backups, but that's not really what this is about. Pay attention: this is about an absolutely unrequested update that locked my PC, and is now demanding a password that does not exist. Now do you understand? (I can type slower if that would help.)

If you have a backup, you're not locked out from your PC without a way to get in, as you claimed. All you have to do is restore. Restore to a new disk, and you can even hook up your old disk externally to access whatever was made after the last backup.

That Microsoft is at fault for what they did is not in question here. I have ever disputed that, and even stated it pretty plainly. Learn to read. You and everyone else have my sympathy for that.
However, you get no sympathy for being locked out of your system, if you really are as you claimed. That's all on you for not following due diligence by having restoreable backups and a spare drive.

Re:Confirmed

[arth1]

Restoring from a backup doesn't do much good if it simply reinstalls Windows 10.

1: Restore from backup.
2: Disable Windows Update.
3: Install a program like GWX Control Panel or Never10 that prevents Windows 10 from being installed.
4: Re-enable Windows update.

or

1: Restore from backup
2: Switch Windows Update to not run automatically.
3: Run Windows Update manually when needed.

Or any of a number of other ways to avoid a reoccurrence. It's not exactly rocket science.

Re:Confirmed

[FlyHelicopters]

No, and no.

Thanks for playing, better luck next time.

Yes, and Yes.

See, I can do that too!

What in the world would Windows put in for a password if you never had one? Random text? The whole premise makes no sense.

I do this for a living, what you are claiming doesn't ring as true.

Re:Confirmed

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

That would not be the case if you had backups. The above is pretty much telling the world that you can't restore from a backup.

No, it's means exactly what I said, no more and no less. I am locked out of that partition and cannot get to the files on that partition. How you can interpret that to mean something completely different shows your complete lack of understanding and a poor grasp of meaning.

Having backups does not magically allow me to access that partition, no matter what your muddled thinking tells you. Let's recap:

"I am locked out of that entire partition." Tell me, how would having backups make that partition accessible?

"My files are there, but I can't get to them." Again, how would having backups allow me to get to the files on that partition?

Put down the bong and think before you type.

Re:Confirmed

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

If you have a backup, you're not locked out from your PC without a way to get in, as you claimed.

Having backups does not magically make that partition available. Perhaps you need to take a reading comprehension course.

Re:Confirmed

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

What in the world would Windows put in for a password if you never had one?

I have no idea. If I knew then I'd say so. Other people have made reference to the idea that I'd need to make some sort of Microsoft account on Live or other service to create one. I've no idea if that's true. It won't happen because I'm just going to keep booting into Mint and say goodbye to Windows on that laptop.

-

The whole premise makes no sense.

Nonetheless, it is true. Just because you can't bring yourself to believe it doesn't mean it isn't true. Maybe you need more experience with operating systems.

-

I do this for a living,

Then you must be starving to death.

Re:Confirmed

[FlyHelicopters]

I have no idea. If I knew then I'd say so.

You don't, I do... you don't know what you're doing, because what you're suggesting just isn't going to happen randomly...

You either did it, or you have an infected computer, there is no other reasonable answer.

Re:Confirmed

[armanox]

Once you have the command prompt (or powershell), couldn't you just modify the user account that you intend to use anyway?

Re:Confirmed

[deniable]

Is it asking for a password or is it asking for a Microsoft account? If it's the second hit the non-obvious "I don't have an email address" or similar and set up a local account. It's a different kind of MS BS but not to the level of ransom-ware.

Re:Confirmed

[bingoUV]

No, no one knows the value of backups due to *this* event.

Data on that partition can be accessed from the Linux Mint partition anyway, so there is no data loss.

Now, the problem of Microsoft doing things on the computer without the "owner's" permission - cannot be resolved with restoring from backup. And no backup of Microsoft itself can be restored to make them not shitty - because they have always been shitty.

So at best, you restore from backups and apply some workarounds for them to not do things without the "owner's" permission in this particular manner. But next time they do similarly bad things in another manner - and usage of the computer becomes a fight against the OS. Clearly not worth it in itself - so definitely not worth it *AND* a dinner for two.

Re:Confirmed

[bingoUV]

I said Windows 10 doesn't insert or change passwords, and it doesn't

Please show the source code.

Re:Confirmed

[wildstoo]

You're wrong. You absolutely can have local user accounts because that's how I'm running Windows 10 on my home PC.

During install, on the screen that says "Sign into your Microsoft account" you click "Create a new account", then on the following screen you click "Sign in without a Microsoft account".

Alternatively, just put random junk into the login boxes for the Microsoft account. Eventually it'll assume you're unable to sign into your Microsoft account and it'll display a button to "Create a local account".

Obviously MS don't really want you to do this, otherwise they wouldn't have buried the option like they did, but the option still exists.

Re:Confirmed

[dbIII]

there is no other reasonable answer

Microsoft "cloud" account - hotmail or similar. Consider how your password management is handled in Win10 and you'll get some ideas about this situation.

Re:Confirmed

[squiggleslash]

If this is just for home use, you don't need a commercial grade NAS, so presumably something like this would be fine: http://www.amazon.com/Cloud-Pe...

For that style of NAS, depending upon storage capacity, you're looking at anything from $125-200. Yes, the price rises significantly if you want a version that implements software RAID, but if you're just making backups...

Re:Confirmed

[omnichad]

System restore will revert the Windows 10 upgrade if it's been less than 30 days. You just have to get to the boot options. If you don't have Win10 install media to boot from, you just have to get it to fail to boot twice and it will come up automatically (pull the cord/battery during the middle of boot twice should do it). But it's easier downloading the Windows 10 media creation tool and running that on another computer to create a USB stick or DVD to boot from.

Windows 10 does not force you to set up a Microsoft account. If you didn't have one before, you may have had a password but set your computer not to require it at login. That's something you can check after you get back to 7.

Re:Confirmed

[EndlessNameless]

Are you trolling?

"I am locked out of that entire partition." Tell me, how would having backups make that partition accessible?

A backup utility will have bootable recovery media. You boot from that and start your restore. They support both blank CDs and USB thumb drives, but this is 100% dependent on what tool you use..

"My files are there, but I can't get to them." Again, how would having backups allow me to get to the files on that partition?

You restore your files from the backups. How is this even a question? Once you have the original OS with a known user/pass, you have access.

Put down the bong and think before you type.

That's a mean comment for someone not doing much thinking himself. You cannot be "locked out" of a partition unless it is encrypted. Even without backups, you have a variety of options.

You can simply put the drive in another machine and copy the files.

Or you can put a spare drive in this machine and reinstall Windows there, then the existing partitions will be available as D:, E:, or whatever the next available letter is.

Or you can use one of the many NT password reset discs to overwrite the local passwords.

Or you can boot from a portable Linux distro or WinPE disc and copy the files over the network.

Or you can take it to a local computer shop and pay them to recover the data if any of this is too complicated for you.

But the bottom line: you are not "locked out" of your data, and this problem is quite simple to resolve.

Re:Confirmed

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

there is no other reasonable answer

Microsoft "cloud" account - hotmail or similar. Consider how your password management is handled in Win10 and you'll get some ideas about this situation.

I've heard some references to this, so I may take a look at it, but for now booting into Mint seems to be working well.

As for 'FlyHelicopters', he's obviously unable to comprehend anything outside his direct experience, and so he dismisses it out of hand.

Re:Confirmed

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

Is it asking for a password or is it asking for a Microsoft account?

I'll have to take another look, I think it was asking for a full account login, i.e. a user account/email and a password.

Re: Confirmed

[Angeret]

Seems a few people aren't taking into account that whilst they might be at a level of computer savvy from average to corporate IT pro, many people aren't. Those people are the ones who will believe the bullshit they're sold by TV/newspaper advertising & brainless salesdroids talking about operating systems that are the best ever and self-repairing. Remember Apple's "It just works"? Play that across the board for all sorts of hardware.

For some it'll be - as you rightly state - "it just broke" and they'll be stuffed. They won't have known that the thing they've been doing home accounts/online retail therapy/video calls to the kids/grandkids is something that can fail anytime (and often just outside of support or warranty time). People around here think that *everyone* who so much as looks at a computer, be it desktop, laptop or tablet (or even a smartphone) should somehow understand that backups need to be made to an external device and also know how to set up said device and schedule those backups. Meanwhile, back in the real world...

Re:Confirmed

[Mr.CRC]

You sound traumatized. That's how it went down for me, in 1993 (!) with Win 3.1. Something awful happened, and I switched to Linux.

Re:Confirmed

[HelloKittyMeow]

Guess he's just not as connected as you are when it comes to getting a fancy dinner for a decent price. ;-)

Re:FUCKING LIARS EVERYWHERE

[Z00L00K]

You would be at least a bit more trusted if you didn't post as "Anonymous Coward".

And the number of reported cases of "auto-install" is too high to dismiss.

Nuked my local game store's POS software

[danielbeaver]

My local game store's Point Of Sale laptop started updating to Windows 10 on it's own in the middle of the work day. It was during an MTG release/tournament day, so he had tons of sales that he was frantically trying to keep track of in a makeshift ledger book. And then, of course, his POS software wasn't working once Windows 10 finished installing - it was an older software package, I'm not sure exactly which. He ended up buying a newer edition, and transferring is sales database to that, but only after staying up late trying to troubleshoot his old software. What did this Windows users gain from this experience? A lot of stress, missed sales, flat icons for his UI. Thanks, Microsoft.

Re:Nuked my local game store's POS software

[Anonymous Coward]

That's like blaming a guy for receiving a box of poop in the mail because he didn't tell the mailman once a week "Please do not mail poop to me."

Re:Nuked my local game store's POS software

[FlyHelicopters]

Let me guess...

Windows Home edition, everything on "automatic", and no ongoing maintenance was being done to keep it current outside of business hours.

Yes, MS should adjust how these things work, but the bulk of the responsibility there is with the game store owner, not MS.

Maintain your equipment, install updates on your schedule, and know what you're doing, or don't bitch about it doing it some other way.

Re: Nuked my local game store's POS software

[Anonymous Coward]

No you want to blame the victim because a bully beat the shit out of him because he didn't say he didn't want it quickly enough.

Re:Nuked my local game store's POS software

[maugle]

Can you imagine if this attitude was taken by any other company?

"Keurig agents have been sneaking into people's houses and replacing their Keurig coffeemakers with the new, fancy Keurig 10.0. However, the Keurig 10.0 is incompatible with all old 3rd party k-cups. To avoid being 'upgraded', you should leave a sign saying 'do not steal and replace' by your coffeemaker, but the Keurig agents will remove the sign sometimes so you need to make sure to keep replacing the sign if it disappears overnight. Reports have also surfaced of the Keurig agents occasionally ignoring the sign altogether, so some people recommend having someone in the house stay awake by the Keurig at all times to decline the upgrade."

"Tesla owners are facing a forced upgrade to the Tesla Model FU, which now runs on diesel. Tesla officials say that, to decline the upgrade, simply park your car facing towards Redmond when the upgrade agents come by to check. The upgrade agents can come by to check at any time, including when you're in the middle of driving."

I could go on, but do you get my point? People should not be required to be actively vigilant about keeping their equipment from suddenly having massive (and potentially ruinous) changes forced on them.

Re:Nuked my local game store's POS software

[rudy_wayne]

People have had years to drop Microsoft. They could start investigating alternatives today. If no alternatives exist for the software they need, they can find ways to code what they need or pay someone else to do so.

Right, because writing an alternative to Photoshop (or any other large complex application) is trivial and I can pay someone to do it in a few days.

Sorry but you are a complete moron.

Re:Nuked my local game store's POS software

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

Maintain your equipment, install updates on your schedule, and know what you're doing, or don't bitch about it doing it some other way.

Why should anyone have to do that? I guarantee there are aspects of your own life where you're not an expert and someone hostile who knows the system better than you could take advantage of that, because no-one is an expert at everything. That's part of the reason we have laws prohibiting things like unauthorised access to computers. It's also why we have laws that say if you hide some generic consent deep within your terms, you might find it's considered unfair and therefore unenforceable.

Re:Nuked my local game store's POS software

[Calydor]

Well, this thread of comments did start with a Point Of Sale system that no longer worked after getting the upgrade, so ... that, for one.

Re:Nuked my local game store's POS software

[dwywit]

I think it stems from not having actually used such software. "Photoshop? Bah, I use GIMP" creates an impression that GIMP is functionally equivalent in all cases.

Anyway - "pay someone else to do so" - yes, that's exactly what I did - I paid Adobe, they supplied me with software.

Re:Nuked my local game store's POS software

[FlyHelicopters]

Why should anyone have to do that?

Because that is how open personal computers work. With freedom comes responsibility.

One of those responsibilities is to maintain the computer properly.

If you don't want to learn, pay someone to do it who will be responsible if it breaks.

Re:Nuked my local game store's POS software

[FlyHelicopters]

No, because coffee machines and personal computers are nothing alike...

The real problem here is that people want to own computers, but don't want to take any responsibility for maintaining them or knowing how they work.

Or better yet, for even bothering to read what is on the screen.

Do you blame Ford for your car breaking down because you failed to maintain it? Or are you just an idiot who doesn't understand how a car works and that it needs to be maintained?

Now... YOU personally don't have to know how to fix the car, you can pay someone for that. But for some reason, people don't want to hire anyone to maintain their computer.

Don't want to do that? Don't own a computer.

Re:Nuked my local game store's POS software

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

And what else should everyone do? Pay a few hundred bucks to an accountant every few months in case they're breaking some new tax rule? Hire a lawyer to review every legal agreement they ever agree to?

The only reason there is any need to install updates on an otherwise working system is to mitigate defects in the original software. Software vendors have gotten off very lightly in recent years considering the poor quality of a lot of what they sell, and the only way that's even slightly justifiable under the usual laws about fitness for purpose and the like is because of the way updates are issued for things like security vulnerabilities.

I'll be happy to accept that it's the user's sole responsibility to maintain the system they paid for, just as soon as all the software developers involved accept the usual level of liability for defects and any consequential losses that vendors of almost any other commercial product would routinely face.

Re:Nuked my local game store's POS software

[Motherfucking Shit]

Let me guess...

Windows Home edition, everything on "automatic", and no ongoing maintenance was being done to keep it current outside of business hours.

It shouldn't matter.

Microsoft, and in turn most IT professionals, have spent the better part of 20 years encouraging everyone to keep Windows Update turned on. This is how you keep your system secure, guard against exploits and vulnerabilities, and receive bug fixes. It's generally a good thing. Never in all that time did enabling automatic updates, even "everything," run the risk of installing an entirely new fucking operating system without the user asking for it. There's no reason why a machine running any version of Windows, set to automatically install all categories of updates, should ever install an entirely new fucking operating system without the user asking for it. It's behavior that is entirely unexpected and contrary to how Windows Update has worked since its inception.

Microsoft has really gone beyond the pale with this one, as now people are routinely disabling Windows Update, refusing any update that prompts to install, etc. as they're afraid of a Windows 10 installation that they do not want sneaking in. This entire disaster of a product launch has moved security backwards.

Re:Nuked my local game store's POS software

[FlyHelicopters]

It shouldn't matter.

Well it does and if you ran a business, you'd understand that.

There is no excuse as a business owner to not understand the mission critical aspects of your company, or to have key employees who do.

Microsoft, and in turn most IT professionals, have spent the better part of 20 years encouraging everyone to keep Windows Update turned on.

For home users, yes... Business users need a bit more advice than just that...

If your systems are mission critical (and a POS checkout system fits that bill), then you need to have a bit more understand than "check automatic updates and hope for the best".

run the risk of installing an entirely new fucking operating system without the user asking for it. There's no reason why a machine running any version of Windows, set to automatically install all categories of updates, should ever install an entirely new fucking operating system without the user asking for it.

The user did ask for it, they asked for all recommended updates to be installed automatically.

Windows 10 is a recommended update to Windows 7 and 8.1.

Re:Nuked my local game store's POS software

[FlyHelicopters]

And what else should everyone do? Pay a few hundred bucks to an accountant every few months in case they're breaking some new tax rule?

If you're making enough money to stand out from the masses, then yes, you should.

Either that, or educate yourself on the tax laws.

Ignorance is not an excuse, the IRS has a rather dim view of that one.

Hire a lawyer to review every legal agreement they ever agree to?

If they are of serious dollar amounts, then yes. You wouldn't (or shouldn't) buy a house without a lawyer, for example. You shouldn't buy or sell a business without one, etc.

Re:Nuked my local game store's POS software

[FlyHelicopters]

The only reason there is any need to install updates on an otherwise working system is to mitigate defects in the original software. Software vendors have gotten off very lightly in recent years considering the poor quality of a lot of what they sell, and the only way that's even slightly justifiable under the usual laws about fitness for purpose and the like is because of the way updates are issued for things like security vulnerabilities.

What you want is not possible.

If by chance laws were passed to try and make it so, you'd see almost all future development stop. You'd see prices go way up, you'd see options fall, and you'd be stuck on old unsupported versions of things for a long time.

Re:Nuked my local game store's POS software

[Evtim]

What do we do if we get the trick "install now or install later" Win 10 upgrade considering that ALL UPGRADES ARE TURNED OFF since at least 1 year. I posted this few days ago and got down-modded [WTF?!?!] like I have no other business but to lie on /.

Where is my consumer stupidity here, mister, where is my fault?

Yes, thanks to /. discussions I knew that I need to close the window and not choose any of the two "options" but it was close and I am not sure many people will pay attention to it...

Yes, it happened no matter what M$ apologists are saying [this is the first time I use M$, not going for name calling usually but FUCK OFF]. I call this hacking and if I did have the power M$ will be sued into oblivion...but of course this is an utopia....it is so funny [in a sad way] that so many people here are talking about courts like...you know...like they would work...forgetting what some guys said once "give me the control over the currency and the courts and leave the rest to the plebs".

Re:Nuked my local game store's POS software

[FlyHelicopters]

Where is my consumer stupidity here, mister, where is my fault?

You set Windows to automatically install recommended Windows updates.

Windows 10 is a recommended Windows update to 7 or 8.1.

Re:Nuked my local game store's POS software

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

Perhaps we would see those things, but what I described is much closer to possible than a lot of the big software companies would like their customers to believe, and even just in economic terms the amount of time and money lost to unnecessarily bad software is huge. Of course, you can't fix that as long as you primarily hire inexperienced (aka cheap) developers, put managers who think the word "Agile" is a silver bullet in charge of those developers, provide those developers with tools that are popular rather than good, hire consultants who tell you TDD is the pinnacle of software design and quality processes, and other such nonsense that plagues the industry today. But as long as they can get away with doing this stuff in the name of profit even if they're then supplying sub-standard products to their customers, what incentive do they have to explore better options?

Re:Nuked my local game store's POS software

[bingoUV]

That is ok, some people are too unfortunate / stupid to be locked into bad software. Some of them do deserve some sympathy - e.g. someone hiding under a rock for last 25 years, and then emerging and using Photoshop for "a few days" can get hit by this issue for no fault of their own.

Re:Nuked my local game store's POS software

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

Perhaps you're right about those cases, but the equivalent for computing would be something like if you're commissioning the devices and networking equipment for a medium-sized business, you might want to get expert help if you're not an expert yourself. What we're talking about here appears to be a small business in a non-IT field that bought a PC and wants to use what they bought for the purpose they bought it for in a way that had previously been working, which is hardly unreasonable.

Re:Nuked my local game store's POS software

[david_thornley]

The real problem here is that people want to own computers, but don't want to take any responsibility for maintaining them or knowing how they work.

The real problem here is people who take any excuse they can to blame the victim. After all, that guy bought a computer, didn't change the defaults, didn't go out and do independent research on how to maintain a computer (ever looked at the instructions that come with the computer?), and didn't keep track of any nefarious thing Microsoft might think up, so it's his fault.

If my car breaks down, it's for a not-completely-predictable mechanical reason. It's never been because of someone's deliberate act (I wasn't trying to run into that thing, so it doesn't count as deliberate). I have an instruction book (the owner's manual) that tells me how to maintain the car, and I follow it, and it's been very reliable. Apparently, though, this level of care is not sufficient for a computer.

Re:Nuked my local game store's POS software

[FlyHelicopters]

Do you honestly think that Microsoft Windows is bug ridden and security flawed because Microsoft doesn't care or isn't willing to spend another hundred million to make it right?

I don't believe a program that complex written by humans and designed to run on a hundred million different configurations supporting a million different software programs going back 20 years can be made bug free.

It is beyond human ability to do that.

Re:Nuked my local game store's POS software

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

Is it possible to write software of that scale 100% bug free? I doubt it. Even if we could get the implementation close to perfect, I doubt we know how to produce an equally perfect spec for what the required behaviour is under such a wide range of conditions yet.

However, is it possible to write software of that scale with significantly better reliability than much of what ships today? Of course. Just writing most software in more robust languages than C or C++ and reserving those low-level tools for the systems programming tasks where their strengths are actually needed would be a good start.

The problem is that the industry continues to use substandard tools and processes, despite ample evidence of their weaknesses and better alternatives, in large part because of non-technical issues. There is insufficient commercial incentive to research and train developers in better ways of building software when there are already millions of developers you can hire to write code in existing languages and with existing processes, so as long as customers are willing to accept the unnecessarily poor quality that results, why would you change (from a business perspective)?

Re:Nuked my local game store's POS software

[FlyHelicopters]

You might be right, but is the answer honestly, "lets get the government involved?"

Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease. If you really want to get Microsoft (or anyone else) to change, better to do it with market forces.

Get Apple to change how they sell Mac OS for example, or to offer reasonable Mac computers.

I frankly think in 2016 that if Apple offered better computer options they could easily own 30% of the overall PC market. But they don't, so they don't.

But perhaps they would actually not make any more money doing it, or even less, given lower margins.

Re:Nuked my local game store's POS software

[FlyHelicopters]

Apparently, though, this level of care is not sufficient for a computer.

For a Windows computer, no... and this has been known for 20 years, it isn't new...

Your car example would be closer to perhaps an iPad than a desktop computer running Windows.

There is reason Microsoft went with all automatic updates, people were not maintaining their computers and when they had a problem, they blamed Microsoft. This is simply Microsoft attempting to compensate for stupid computer users who do not wish to educate themselves.

Re:Nuked my local game store's POS software

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

Well, when we're talking about "getting the government involved" here, I don't think we're talking about heavy regulation or things like mandatory registration for practitioners as we often see in disciplines like medicine, engineering or law.

All I'm suggesting is that the software industry should not be magically exempt from the same general legal standards as everyone else. If you sell something and it doesn't work properly, you should be required to do something reasonable about that, and you should be required to do it without attaching strings that the customer didn't originally sign up for.

Re:Nuked my local game store's POS software

[david_thornley]

It has been known for at least twenty years that people are people and will continue to be people, and that all the whining about how they should know what those of us in the field know is pointless. Calling someone stupid because he or she doesn't keep up with computer news is stupid and shows a thorough lack of empathy.

This is an attempt on Microsoft's part to dupe those people who aren't into computers like you and I are into updating their OS regardless of consequences. That's malware.

Re:Nuked my local game store's POS software

[FlyHelicopters]

It has been known for at least twenty years that people are people and will continue to be people, and that all the whining about how they should know what those of us in the field know is pointless.

The irony is that you're calling them stupid as well, but you're using the term "people will continue to be people" rather than say it outright...

In other words, people will continue to be stupid. :)

This is just MS helping people out who otherwise won't help themselves. The Internet needs better security, one way to get it is to drive forward Windows updates.

While we can disagree on their methods, the goal is a good one.

Re:Nuked my local game store's POS software

[FlyHelicopters]

All I'm suggesting is that the software industry should not be magically exempt from the same general legal standards as everyone else.

Are they? How much consumer stuff really works all that great?

Heck, a lot of clothes I buy no longer hold up the way the good old stuff used to. It is cheaper, which is nice, but it doesn't last as long either.

If you sell something and it doesn't work properly, you should be required to do something reasonable about that

Fair enough... like what?

Define "doesn't work properly" to a court of law. Then define who makes that decision and what shade of gray is used? What is the "reasonable thing about that"?

That is why it becomes heavy government regulation and you'd destroy the tech business, because of the above.

By some people's point of view, Windows has never worked properly. By others, it seems to work just fine. And what should MS do about that? For how long? Is MS required to fix bugs in Windows 3.1 in 2016?

---

Again, while I understand your point of view, I'm not sure that it is a workable one. I'm open to hearing specifics on how you think it might work, because honestly I don't see a way. But that doesn't mean there isn't one. :)

Re:Nuked my local game store's POS software

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

I think one very clear example is that software that communicates with the outside world but has a security vulnerability is defective. If that vulnerability isn't found before it ships, it's fair to expect the software developer to make commercially reasonable efforts to provide a fix within a reasonable timeframe for as long as the software is within a reasonably expected useful lifetime.

That's a lot of reasonables, and we have courts to figure out the details based on the specifics of a particular case. I'd expect more from a $100 mass market operating system than from a $2 mobile app with 100 total sales. I'd expect more still from a $X,000-per-seat professional software product that requires extensive contact just to buy it and then locks the customer's data into a proprietary format so the consequences of any bugs may be much worse.

Ultimately, if you're selling software that is running hundreds of millions of computers, making billions of dollars in revenues, but with the result that a security vulnerability in your product a few months after launch can cause huge amounts of damage as well, I think it's fair to expect you to provide an update that closes the hole, and to do so without imposing other unwanted changes on your customers at the same time. IMHO, with that level of profit and that level of influence comes a commensurate level of responsibility to put right your mistakes, and to do so without taking advantage of your customers in other ways.

Re:Nuked my local game store's POS software

[FlyHelicopters]

I think one very clear example is that software that communicates with the outside world but has a security vulnerability is defective. If that vulnerability isn't found before it ships, it's fair to expect the software developer to make commercially reasonable efforts to provide a fix within a reasonable timeframe for as long as the software is within a reasonably expected useful lifetime.

Ok, that sounds reasonable... but, doesn't MS already do this? What new action is expected?

What is the "expected useful lifetime" of Windows? 5 years? 10 years? Frankly I think MS provides updates longer than most companies do and for more past versions than most companies do.

What if MS came out tomorrow and said, "Windows 10 is now free forever to Windows 7 owners, but support for Windows 7 is ending, Windows 10 is your patch for security"?

I imagine if you wanted to get all legal about it, that would be a "reasonable solution" in the eyes of the law.

How far back does Apple provide support for OS X? Does MS do more?

Re:Nuked my local game store's POS software

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

Ok, that sounds reasonable... but, doesn't MS already do this? What new action is expected?

Well, things like not pushing out updates that dramatically change other aspects of the system using the exact same mechanism as those that fix defects would be a good start. There was an IE security update recently that also included GWX crap, and IMHO that is unacceptable.

What is the "expected useful lifetime" of Windows? 5 years? 10 years? Frankly I think MS provides updates longer than most companies do and for more past versions than most companies do.

Microsoft publishes support lifetimes for most of its major products. It has made an awful lot of money from those products, in part because customers got that level of stability.

Even without that, for something like system software that is supplied with a laptop and essential to its use, clearly the expected useful lifetime must be at least as long as the laptop itself lasts. Who is legally responsible if the software gets broken is a different question, but for sure it isn't the end customer who bought a computer and just wants to get what they paid for.

IMHO the law in my country is outdated in this area, since it effectively dumps the main responsibility on the final vendor who took the customer's money. However, it's the after-sale actions of other parties such as the OS developer that are really deciding the outcome in these cases, and it's also the failures of the software developers that lead to the defects we're talking about in the first place. It's about time we had proper recognition of the actual commercial and practical relationships between the different parties in law and consumers had the right to claim against software developers who don't meet reasonable standards and cause harm as a result.

What if MS came out tomorrow and said, "Windows 10 is now free forever to Windows 7 owners, but support for Windows 7 is ending, Windows 10 is your patch for security"?

No. Windows 10 is significantly different to Windows 7 in all kinds of ways. As we've been discussing, some of them are rather important. I think Microsoft has an obligation to fix the defects in Windows 7 without imposing other changes, and if they don't want to do that because it's more expensive to maintain multiple products or whatever other excuse, I think the law should compel them to do so for a reasonable period in the interests of protecting consumers.

How far back does Apple provide support for OS X? Does MS do more?

I don't know the details for Apple, but I do know that I take exactly the same position about their equipment and the software it's supplied with. In particular, I have on several occasions chosen not to buy Apple equipment because of the lack of acceptable long-term software support compared to Windows systems, and I have seen people return iPads that were screwed up after an iOS update and claim substantial refunds from the stores that sold them (and be given those refunds). Presumably if that started to happen more often or if larger-scale action by consumer protection organisations became a factor, those final vendors who are on the hook for the repair/replacement/refund under the law would start taking up the issue more strongly with their own suppliers and ultimately with Apple.

Re:Nuked my local game store's POS software

[FlyHelicopters]

There was an IE security update recently that also included GWX crap, and IMHO that is unacceptable.

While I actually agree with you on that, I also don't think the government is remotely able to make that decision. The cure would be worse than the disease.

Even without that, for something like system software that is supplied with a laptop and essential to its use, clearly the expected useful lifetime must be at least as long as the laptop itself lasts.

A laptop might well last 20+ years, do you think MS should have to support it that long?

Consider cars... generally car companies must provide support and be liable for defects for 10 to 15 years, depending on the state. Beyond that point, it's all on you.

http://www.clarkfountain.com/b...

And in fairness, this is probably reasonable... after all, if you own a 1984 Cadillac Eldorado, do you REALLY expect GM in 2016 to be responsible for that car?

How about a 1971 Ford Pinto?

Taken to the extreme, how about a 1908 Ford Model T?

That example might sound absurd, but in computer terms, Windows 95 is a lot closer to a Model T than to a F-150 of today. Windows XP might be that 1971 Ford Pinto and Windows 7 is rapidly approaching 15 years old in computer years.

Re:Nuked my local game store's POS software

[FlyHelicopters]

Who is legally responsible if the software gets broken is a different question, but for sure it isn't the end customer who bought a computer and just wants to get what they paid for.

Consider that the customer DID get what they paid for...

Windows generally works just fine out of the box on the computer it was pre-installed on.

Putting aside defect cases where the computer is faulty (and that is a different area of law), future support and updates can never be guaranteed.

Part of the challenge is the Internet. How many patches and updates did DOS 5.0 get? Windows 3.0? Windows 95?

Yes, a few here and there, but not much... Sure, there was DOS 4.01 and DOS 6.2, and of course Windows 3.11... but those were minor, one off updates.

Today Windows is getting updated every week, it is a very different world than 20 years ago. The irony is that your new "requirement" would effectively lock Microsoft into place as the OS of choice forever, since it would become nearly impossible for anyone else to step in.

Also, what happens to Linux, since it clearly would never withstand that test. Yet there are companies that make a living supporting it. Put them to the same test and most of them would clearly fail.

I think what you haven't considered is that you're trying to hold Microsoft to a standard that you don't want to hold anyone else to, and that simply isn't right.

Re:Nuked my local game store's POS software

[FlyHelicopters]

No. Windows 10 is significantly different to Windows 7 in all kinds of ways.

You think so, but that isn't what I said... What I said is that I suspect that a court of law might consider it reasonable.

One thing that Microsoft might do under such a new set of rules is to say "Windows is supported for 10 years on any computer it is pre-installed on, so long as you're running the then current version of Windows, which will be provided for free".

I suspect a whole lot of people will think that sounds quite reasonable and people like you would have little success in convincing the mass market that they are wrong.

I think Microsoft has an obligation to fix the defects in Windows 7 without imposing other changes, and if they don't want to do that because it's more expensive to maintain multiple products or whatever other excuse, I think the law should compel them to do so for a reasonable period in the interests of protecting consumers.

I understand, and it sounds wonderful to say... my point was that you can say that, but making it happen is another thing completely...

There are many shades of gray between "perfect" and "nothing". Feet put to the fire, MS may comply as much as they have to, and nothing more. Perhaps Windows will now only get 2 years of mainstream support and 10 years of "bug fixes", thus requiring you to upgrade far more often than today.

Windows 7 came out when Nehalem was current, yet it is fully supported all the way up to Haswell, with limited Skylake support. Would you be happier if they provide bug fixes for Windows free from the things you don't like, in return for it only working on Sandy Bridge or older, and Ivy Bridge would have required Windows 8? Or perhaps Windows 7.1 would have supported Ivy Bridge, for a $29 "upgrade fee".

That is the cure being worse than the disease. :)

Re:Nuked my local game store's POS software

[FlyHelicopters]

I don't know the details for Apple

Let me help you out... :)

On average, you get between 3 and 4 years of support for each version of OS X.

http://www.computerworld.com/a...

The security clock is ticking down for Apple's OS X Mountain Lion, which will probably be retired from support this fall before the Cupertino, Calif. company releases El Capitan.

Mountain Lion, also known as OS X 10.8, debuted in July 2012, and was the last Mac operating system to come with a price tag: The now-unreasonable $19.99.

Re:Nuked my local game store's POS software

[david_thornley]

I'm not calling them stupid. I'm calling them human, and saying that the classification of people in general as stupid is stupid. Software people are about as bad as libertarians or communists, in that they propose things that just won't work with Homo Sapiens as it exists, and blame people for screwing it up.

One reason Steve Jobs was so successful is that he knew what people would actually find useful. The walled garden is an excellent way to keep people in general out of botnets and the like.

If MS really wanted to clean up the Internet, they'd do their best to brick everyone's computer in a way that only decent system administration would avoid. Would you still defend them in that case, because they had a good goal?

Re:Nuked my local game store's POS software

[FlyHelicopters]

I'm not calling them stupid.

Yes, you are... you just don't want to admit it...

(or perhaps you aren't aware of it, but you are)

Re:Nuked my local game store's POS software

[david_thornley]

I'm saying that people lack specialized knowledge in all sorts of areas. I have no clue how to run a farm, for example. You're the one saying that people lacking specialized knowledge in a particular field are stupid. If you want to call everyone stupid, including you and me, I suppose you can do that.

Re:Nuked my local game store's POS software

[FlyHelicopters]

I have no clue how to run a farm, for example.

Fair enough, then you'd be pretty stupid to try then, wouldn't you?

If people don't know how to use a computer, perhaps they should learn.

What you, and others, are saying is that ignorance is an excuse.

Now for home use, for casual use, perhaps it doesn't matter. If you grow tomatoes in your back yard and they die, will you starve? No, not likely. So that's ok that you tried and messed it up.

Now expand that to 500 acres of tomatoes, would you try that without knowing what you're doing? No, that would be stupid.

If someone is using a computer for business, to make money, and their store/shop/office depends on that computer, then you have an obligation to know how it works and what it takes to make sure it works.

The retail store using a Windows laptop for a point-of-sale terminal without knowing how to use it properly is at fault, not Microsoft. The tools exist to have prevented what happened, the store owner simply choose not to use them and paid the price.

Thankfully in this case, it wasn't a major price, but perhaps lesson learned.

Wrong info shown

[ITRambo]

Windows 10 was released almost ten months ago, not eight. Fortunately that leaves just under two and one half months, not four, until the anniversary update after which strong arm upgrade tactics should stop.

Re:Wrong info shown

[Megane]

after which strong arm upgrade tactics should stop.

Microsoft finds a way.

Re:Wrong info shown

[sir-gold]

I think this article was actually written 2 months ago

Re:Wrong info shown

[johanw]

Optimist, and you believe they will stop? They have already said that people using tols for disabled can still upgrade for free. They'll just label every setting as sush a tool and continue to push.

Re:Wrong info shown

[Opportunist]

I'm actually pretty sure the messages will stop. They'll simply install it and not even ask you anymore.

Who do you think you are, the owner of your computer? Please.

Re:Wrong info shown

[Pikoro]

Sorry, I used excel to figure out the dates.

"Malware-like upgrade system"

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

"...Microsoft's malware-like upgrade system..."

This isn't "malware-like", this IS malware.

Win 10 takes control of your PC from you, collects all sorts of data on you and from you and sends it back to who god where. You cannot stop it and it can "upgrade" or alter itself at will whenever it wants without your permission (and sometimes explicitly against your permission).

If that isn't "malware", I don't know the meaning of the word.

Re:FUCKING LIARS EVERYWHERE

[Anonymous Coward]

I know my way around Windows, and I declined every Windows 10 upgrade prompt, only to wake up one morning sitting at the Windows 10 registration screen. This shit *does* happen, but for whatever reason, doesn't seem to affect every installation equally.

My father has a very similar Lenovo desktop to mine, but he *never* received the GWX component via. Windows Update for some reason.

Expectations?

[fahrbot-bot]

Meanwhile the U.S. Marine Corps has discovered half their computers unexpectedly can't remotely upgrade to Windows 10, slowing their transition to what they expect to be a much more secure operating system.

Why would they expect it to be *more* secure - 'cause 10 is higher than 7 and 8? If it's any different, it's less secure and will be broken when used on the secure network, detached from the world and can't, for example, use the location data for Cortana / Bing searches, etc... (disabling location disables Cortana, from what I read).

Re: Expectations?

[hackwrench]

Actually I find it unlikely that the military wants Cortana.

Re:Expectations?

[Zibodiz]

The security improvements that I've personally encountered aren't actually changes to Windows, it's the fact that 'best practices' are enforced in Windows 10. Which, if you're administering military computers, you should have been doing anyway.

FWIW, Cortana is worthless anyway. Nothing works. 99% of the things you ask her just open Edge and search for whatever you said, word-for-word, even when it's something like "What will the weather be like tomorrow?"
All it does it save you from having to type the search query. The only other thing it will do consistently is launch applications ("Hey Cortana, Open Firefox.") Everything else is a Bing search. It never responds verbally.
So yeah, having her turned off really is no loss, especially if you want the ability to search the web without your co-workers being forced to listen to what you're looking for.

Re:Expectations?

[FlyHelicopters]

If it's any different, it's less secure and will be broken when used on the secure network, detached from the world and can't, for example, use the location data for Cortana / Bing searches, etc... (disabling location disables Cortana, from what I read).

The Marines are using the DoD version of Windows 10, most of that stuff is actually disabled..

Re:Expectations?

[Desler]

detached from the world and can't, for example, use the location data for Cortana / Bing searches, etc... (disabling location disables Cortana, from what I read)

Right, because that's a highly used feature on secured networks. NOT.

Re:Expectations?

[fahrbot-bot]

If it's any different, it's less secure and will be broken when used on the secure network, detached from the world and can't, for example, use the location data for Cortana / Bing searches, etc... (disabling location disables Cortana, from what I read).

The Marines are using the DoD version of Windows 10, most of that stuff is actually disabled..

Okay. How do the rest of us get *that* version - you know, the secure one with all the crap and spyware disabled.

Re:Expectations?

[fahrbot-bot]

detached from the world and can't, for example, use the location data for Cortana / Bing searches, etc... (disabling location disables Cortana, from what I read)

Right, because that's a highly used feature on secured networks. NOT.

You're correct, but they were just examples off the top of my head. I'm sure there are a lot of other Win10 "features" that won't work on a segregated network.

Re:Expectations?

[FlyHelicopters]

:) the irony is that if MS simply sold that version for $100 I'll bet a number of people would buy it.

Offer the current version for $19 or the super secure and locked down version for $100. Just make it the Enterprise LTSB version, I imagine someone wants it. :)

Re:Expectations?

[dcollins]

Head of IT at my college last week: "Windows 10 is more secure, because prior Windows versions were always based on what came before, but Windows 10 has been totally rewritten from scratch."

Re:Expectations?

[chipschap]

it's the fact that 'best practices' are enforced in Windows 10.

Care to say what "best practices" are in Windows 10?

Re:Expectations?

[KiloByte]

All it does it save you from having to type the search query.

You mean, you managed to have it understand what you say? Tell me how! I've never managed to get a single sentence through unmangled despite hours of trying, and neither did any of my friends. It's a deja vu with IBM ViaVoice 15 years ago when we had like half of dormitory gawk and try.

Re:Expectations?

[fahrbot-bot]

Head of IT at my college last week: "Windows 10 is more secure, because prior Windows versions were always based on what came before, but Windows 10 has been totally rewritten from scratch."

Sorry the head of IT at your college is a moron. Win 10 wasn't "rewritten from scratch". It's also based on prior version of Windows - duh. Switch to another school.

Re:Expectations?

[Zibodiz]

Actually, I've been moderately impressed at the voice recognition quality; it's on par with Dragon. Then again, I have a very clear, well enunciated PNW accent; that may have something to do with it. Background noise also matters a lot; if your laptop has the mic anywhere near the fan, it won't work for anything.

Re:Expectations?

[Zibodiz]

Care to say what "best practices" are in Windows 10?

The first thing that comes to mind is that it's nigh impossible to have a Window 10 account without a password. This is basic network security stuff, but a lot of Windows 7 home users still don't have passwords set.
Another is that it's a great deal of work to run without an anti-malware/virus/firewall/whatever. If you don't set one up, they do without asking. If you genuninely want to run without, it's a royal pain.
Another thing that I ran into this past week is that 'modern' apps don't work if UAC is completely disabled. Essentially, the computer annoys you into re-enabling UAC, because you can't use basic things like the calculator, or the new 'Mail' app they've forced on everyone.* UAC is of course a basic security feature, but lots of techs disable it, because some remote desktop applications (join.me, I think? I can't recall for sure) can't allow the remote tech to see the UAC prompts, which of course wreaks havok on their workflow.
I'm sure there are probably other examples as well, but those are the first that come to mind. I know it's also significantly harder to crack a user account password in Windows 10, if they're using an MS account instead of local.

*Mail has replaced Windows Live Mail. They're still allowing people to use Windows Live Mail, and you can install it in 10 just fine, but Exchange email servers and all the MS-hosted email services (outlook.com, hotmail, etc) will stop working with it soon. I'm sure I'll be switching some folks to Thunderbird soon.

Re:Expectations?

[myowntrueself]

Meanwhile the U.S. Marine Corps has discovered half their computers unexpectedly can't remotely upgrade to Windows 10, slowing their transition to what they expect to be a much more secure operating system.

Why would they expect it to be *more* secure - 'cause 10 is higher than 7 and 8?

Just wait until Windows 11 comes out! The Spinal Tap OS!

Re:Expectations?

[chipschap]

A very interesting reply, thank you.

Re:Expectations?

[Voyager529]

disabling location disables Cortana, from what I read

Oh, I wish. That tramp is the T-1000 of software.

Disabled every single option shown to me during installation. Cortana.exe still running.
Went into the Win10 settings and disabled as many privacy-relevant options and data transmission processes as I could find. Cortana.exe still running.
Disabled the Windows Search and Indexing Service services. Cortana.exe still running.
Ran O&O ShutUp 10, disabled everything. Cortana.exe still running.

Ultimately, I had to right click the process, go to the file location, take ownership of the folder, and set 'deny all' permissions for system and trustedinstaller. She's finally dead for the moment, but I'm all but certain I'll be doing this dance again during the next round of Windows patches.

It happened to my parents...

[Krokus]

I got a phone call from my dad the other day. Apparently, he was on his computer playing a game when the computer suddenly killed his game, went to a black screen and then informed him that Windows was going to reboot to install Windows 10. Since this wasn't a problem I could deal with remotely, I told him to just let it go ahead and install it. He doesn't seem to mind Windows 10 but my mother, who hates change, despises it.

This seems like a really stupid idea on Microsoft's part. I mean, what about developers? What if an auto-upgrade to Windows 10 breaks some of the older development tools they're relying on for the project they're in the middle of developing? What if drivers start crashing? What happened to letting people wait for the bug dust to settle before feeling safe enough to upgrade to a new OS?

And while I'm sure someone would say "well, it's their own fault for using older tools", bear in mind that not all development projects are targeted at current hardware and some development tools are proprietary to the companies who own said hardware, leaving no alternatives.

Re:It happened to my parents...

[mhkohne]

And while I'm sure someone would say "well, it's their own fault for using older tools", bear in mind that not all development projects are targeted at current hardware and some development tools are proprietary to the companies who own said hardware, leaving no alternatives.

You don't even need funny hardware to get into this realm - if you've got regulatory hassles, changing tools may be an EXTREMELY expensive proposition (try several months of re-testing expensive). There's a LOT of us out here who can't change tools on a whim - even if the tools are free, the work in documentation alone might consume man-months of time.

Re:It happened to my parents...

[Howitzer86]

It's a real shame too. Windows 10 is a good operating system. If they just let people make their own decisions, (and perhaps gave us total privacy control) we wouldn't be so paranoid about their intentions. I've had it installed on my work laptop, and I've put it on my gen-1 Surface Pro. It works great. But I'm holding off on installing it on my main (home and work) PCs because I use them so much and don't want a surprise interrupting my projects.

The bulk of the reason I feel that way is because I can't completely trust Microsoft. It's as if their leadership needs a fundamental lesson in social interaction. You can't just go around and force people to do what you want them to do. Even if they technically can, even if other companies are doing it (ex: Apple iTunes deleting stuff), they're taking a big risk doing so that will hurt them later.

Re:It happened to my parents...

[FlyHelicopters]

I mean, what about developers? What if an auto-upgrade to Windows 10 breaks some of the older development tools they're relying on for the project they're in the middle of developing?

What about them? Any developer stupid enough to not be maintaining his/her computer deserves this.

First, you wouldn't be running (or shouldn't be) the Home version of Windows.

Second, you shouldn't have everything set to auto-install, you should be paying attention to system maintenance.

Finally, if you have specific tool sets that you know you depend on for older tools, then you should have updates off anyway and do them manually in a tested environment.

Re:It happened to my parents...

[omnichad]

What if drivers start crashing?

I had a computer on my bench last night that, after upgrading to Windows 10, merely touching the trackpad caused a bluescreen from the trackpad driver. An ordinary user can't even figure out how to do a driver update from there. And that's on top of the wireless auto-config service being somehow disabled.

Re:It happened to my parents...

[Mr.CRC]

Sadly some of the arrogant attitude of "we know best how you should use your computer" has even seeped into the GNU/Linux/KDE|Gnome world.

Re:FUCKING LIARS EVERYWHERE

[sumdumass]

I'm not posting AC but you still do no know who I am. I find nothing disagreeable with his statement and certainly posting Anonymous Coward doesn't automagically invalidate anything being said. I just built two windows 10 workstations to test comparability with some specific software and put libre office on one of them. A higher up making a lot more money than I decided he needed an office suite and did the same. Turns out he cannot be assed to look at the domain name and went to some site that looked like a child created it with the .in or some extension like that instead of .org. He put icons on his desktop for the applications but installed a crapton of spyware in the process and one of them actually popped up a message saying microsoft support, clink on the link to resolve this application issue. It then gave him a phone number to call which he did and they wanted a credit card. He will not admit to giving a credit card number but I found out when he asked my why I liked libre office when it doesn't run right and wants you to pay more than the site license of MS office we had.

Of course this same moron had some say in the two programs I am trying to find a work around for because they do not work the same from windows 7 to windows 10 and there seems to be no easy way to pull data to another program. To be fair, it was a legacy ordeal patched into win7 from XP. But in my experience, this is not unusual for the types of people who seem to get paid the most in IT. They are better bullshitters than techs and it puts used car salesmen in good standing in some cases.

Re:Windows?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm more interested to know how the article writer and the 'editor' both managed to somehow think that there are four months between May 15th and July 29th.

Re:Whining about a free upgrade? Really?

[honestmonkey]

Hey, here are some free bullets! I wanted to get them to you as fast as I could, and was sure you'd want them so I didn't ask permission first, so I fired them from my gun at you. No need to thank me!

As they have autoupdated my neighbours win 8

[Anonymous Coward]

to win 10 without his permission are they liable for the cost of paying some one to revert it back to win 8 and resinatall all his specialist software as he is registered blind. The licensed version of his software he paid doesnt work without a paid upgrade to the win 10 version.

I belive this is criminal damage,

Re:Windows?

[BarbaraHudson]

Because is seems like this crap has been going on forever, driving people to booze and cheap drugs? :-)

Re:Whining about a free upgrade? Really?

[BarbaraHudson]

It's not a matter of entitlement. It's a matter of choice. I don't want to see ads on my login screen.

Re:Whining about a free upgrade? Really?

[mark-t]

"upgrade" generally implies improvement. When a so-called upgrade not only cannot offer improvement, but will actually make things *worse* for a person, the term is not an accurate one. One finds, in fact, that the *ONLY* way that one can say that Windows 10 does not actually make things any worse is to be simply dismissive of people's feelings and suggest that the issues they might complain about with the differences between versions shouldn't be so important to them in the first place.

Turn off "GWX"

[DigitalSorceress]

For folks who aren't terribly computer savvy (So.. theoretically not Slashdot)

Go get "Never 10" freeware from GRC... it uses the officially Microsoft sanctioned means of permanently disabling the whole "Get Windows 10" stuff

https://www.grc.com/never10.ht...

This is a good option for "mom support"

For those willing to muck about in the registry:

Open Regedit, navigate to the following key.

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\WindowsUpdate

Important: If that key doesn't exist, you'll need to create it.

Create a DWORD value called DisableOSUpgrade and set it to 1

There's also a good quick and dirty:
http://www.windowsmechanic.com...

Re:Turn off "GWX"

[rudy_wayne]

For folks who aren't terribly computer savvy (So.. theoretically not Slashdot)

Go get "Never 10" freeware from GRC... it uses the officially Microsoft sanctioned means of permanently disabling the whole "Get Windows 10" stuff

Until Microsoft pushes out a "critical" update and bundles in something that also changes or disables the "officially Microsoft sanctioned" setting.

Re:Turn off "GWX"

[msk]

My mother switched to a Mac.

Re:Turn off "GWX"

[cant_get_a_good_nick]

My mother in law is incredibly tech phobic. Ironic since she had to use them daily, but whatever.

We got her a mac laptop, Mac Air IIRC. When iv'e updated her laptop to the newst OS Rev (and we've gone through 4 major releases) she's bitcvhed about..... the wallpaper changing.

That's it. The wallpaper.

No solid OS in XP, then the hell that i dealt with in Vista (where Microsoft de-contented base OS versions so I couldn't put it in english so i debugged it in Chinese), then Vista, then 8 where they forced a tablet UI half ass glued to a desktop UI, then 8.1 where they backed off then over to 10 with a new update model.

Granted, maybe there are a lot of oddball things she didn't bring up, but I can't assume that. All i can assume is that she's pretty good with MacOS.

Don't want Windows 10?

[NormAtHome]

GWX control panel http://ultimateoutsider.com/do... it'll remove the Windows 10 upgrade app and prevent an automatic upgrade.

Re:Don't want Windows 10?

[StormReaver]

When my customers tell me they don't want Windows 10, I download and install this to fix the problem. They universally thank me.

Re:Don't want Windows 10?

[NormAtHome]

Your comment is really not relevant to this discussion.

Re:As they have autoupdated my neighbours win 8

[Khyber]

It's called CFAA.

Tell your friend to file in court.

to avoid it, at least for now.

[Opportunist]

At least 'til MS catches on, this effectively thwarts their attempts to infect your machine:

MS tries to create a folder named "$windows.~BT" where it downloads files needed for the infection. If a file by that name exists, it is not possible for them to create a folder by that name.

Re:to avoid it, at least for now.

[Mr.CRC]

Very clever. Too bad you have to resort to such trickery though.

Re:This is really funny

[Opportunist]

You want to bet that there will again be people who will deny that this is real?

Re: Whining about a free upgrade? Really?

[Z00L00K]

The catch is that you don't have to pay for it but you will be in the local newspaper in ads for meds against genital herpes.

Re:FUCKING LIARS EVERYWHERE

[Anonymous Coward]

I know my way around Windows, and I declined every Windows 10 upgrade prompt, only to wake up one morning sitting at the Windows 10 registration screen. This shit *does* happen, but for whatever reason, doesn't seem to affect every installation equally.

Based on my recent experience trying to do a clean install of Windows 10, it's extremely buggy, far beyond any previous version. It's almost as if the installer contains a random number generator that generates a different problem with each installation. Same computer, same installation media, different problem each time.

Thats why autoupdates have been off for 6 months

[bobjr94]

I disabled autoupdates about 6 months ago on all our work computers and my own computers at home. So far it has worked great, no nagging windows 10 notifications. Just manually check updates now and then and make sure to only download real ones and none related to windows 10.

Re:Microsoft is like a pushy street beggar

[Opportunist]

It's like one of those assholes that "wipe" your windshield. The comparison is pretty much apt, considering that the asshole fucks up your car by smearing shit all over it, and if you dare to send him away he'll probably damage your car.

The best way to stop it

[tom229]

I have two machines in my house running Windows. On one of them I had to spend the time fiddling with registry keys to get the Windows 10 crap to go away, but on the other I didn't. The difference: it's not "genuine". It actually is licensed for a copy of Windows 7, but due to Microsoft's previous idiocy of shipping downgrades from 8 without the product key, the key was lost on this machine after a rebuild so it can never get genuine. I'm sure I could buy an HP OEM or some other nonsense, but I actually have a better functioning computer without resolving the licensing problem! Thanks Microsoft!

More secure operating system?

[khz6955]

"Meanwhile, the U.S. Marine Corps has discovered half their computers unexpectedly can't remotely upgrade to Windows 10, slowing their transition to what they expect to be a much more secure operating system".

Windows and security don't go in the same sentence.

Re:More secure operating system?

[werewolf1031]

...unless it's an OR argument.

Re:Are you sure?

[Z00L00K]

Not sure where you live, but it was a long time ago Win 10 was on the optional list - if it ever was.

Re: Whining about a free upgrade? Really?

[Opportunist]

And in the next incarnation of this, MS augments its position from your homeopathetic doc to your woo-influenced parent who decides what's good for you whether this kills you or not, without even bothering to ask you in your sleep.

Silly men

[Archtech]

"Meanwhile, the U.S. Marine Corps has discovered half their computers unexpectedly can't remotely upgrade to Windows 10, slowing their transition to what they expect to be a much more secure operating system".

Is that what they expect? Hahahahahahahaha! Do they have any idea what the word "secure" means?

http://techrights.org/2015/06/...

Why do we keep calling it an upgrade?

[jenningsthecat]

From everything I've heard about Windows 10, (excluding various noises from MS shills), it's not an upgrade by any sensible meaning of the term. It's time the members of the tech community who know what Win 10 is really about, started calling it a downgrade. Then the term might, just possibly, come into widespread use, hurting Microsoft at least a little at a time when they deserve every last bit of comeuppance and blowback that can be heaped upon them.

Re:Why do we keep calling it an upgrade?

[KiloByte]

These days, the mainstream use of this word means "numerically higher"/"newer", not "better". cf: GTK3, Gnome 3, systemd. Sweeping changes that degrade usability are in no way limited to Microsoft.

Hasn't Happened At Work

[Greyfox]

I hunted down and killed GWX at work on several machines my group administers and this hasn't happened on any of those machines so far. If I missed any, I suppose we'll find out if our crap is compatible with Windows 10 (I'm not holding my breath) or if we have to accelerate our plans to move our test platform to Linux in the coming months.

I decided to see how long I could stay booted over to Xbuntu at home and haven't booted to Windows in several months. I suppose I'll be pissed off if I get a hankerin' to play Skyrim, but a surprising number of my steam games run great on Linux. It's a refreshing turn of events from back in the day when the only way to run commercial games on Linux was to buy Lokisoft titles. I went out of my way to buy several of their games before they went out of business. All my install media got lost a couple moves ago. I still miss Tribes 2. It was getting pretty old booting to Windows for games and back to Linux for real work (video processing, programming, etc) so I'm happy to be 100% Linux at home again.

Re:FUCKING LIARS EVERYWHERE

[peragrin]

So far the only preventive way to block windows 10 is install something even more hideous that is incompatible with windows 10.

Synmatec endpoint protection at work was blocking windows 10 updates. the version installed at work(15 I believe) was incompatible with windows 10 and treated the auto installs as viruses, that stopped the update.

Now I went around the desktops at work and force uninstalled Symatic endpoint to allow windows 10 to install, but only because we don't use them as desktops. We RDP into the server. So all windows 10 has to do for us on 95% of the desktop is run RDP. Even with that we get random issues with windows 10, using it's file sharing for updates during work hours to hog the bandwidth.

Re:As they have autoupdated my neighbours win 8

[TheGratefulNet]

It's called CFAA.

I tried calling them, but they said its at least 2 hours before they could get here.

Re:Microsoft is like a pushy street beggar

[Z00L00K]

Create a file in the root named "$WINDOWS.~BT".

That would cause some headache for the installer since it can't create a directory with that name to download Win7 into.

Of course - Microsoft may make a workaround for that too sooner or later.

Re:This is really funny

[Z00L00K]

No, it's not funny.

It may mean that they have tricked users to do it, like clicking "later" means in this case to not ask again but wait until you leave the computer alone and then push in the upgrade.

Not different from what malware does.

Re:Windows?

[epyT-R]

You have a point, but since most nerds either have or have to admin windows machines, it's still a valid subject. News of the latest fucking by microsoft is par for the course here and has been since the beginning. This also applies to other vendors.

WHERE IS OUR ***CHOICE*** ???????

[kheldan]

We own the computers they're making unilateral decisions for, what the actual fuck happened to our choice as the owners of the hardware they're forcing their software on??????

This is positively CRIMINAL and has to be STOPPED. WHERE ARE THE CRIMINAL AND/OR CIVIL CHARGES AGAINST MICROSOFT????

Re:WHERE IS OUR ***CHOICE*** ???????

[drinkypoo]

This is positively CRIMINAL and has to be STOPPED. WHERE ARE THE CRIMINAL AND/OR CIVIL CHARGES AGAINST MICROSOFT????

Go make some.

Oh look, it is the lameness filter. How pathetic.

Re:FUCKING LIARS EVERYWHERE

[Whorelander]

Extremely buggy? That sucks. I don't know what's going on with your comp(s), but I've installed Windows 10 on 3 PCs here and upgraded a friend's dual-core AMD(APU) based notebook recently. Every single PC runs better now. Windows 10 has been a rock solid OS.

The notebook( 4 gigs of Ram ) under Widows 7 was always low on resources and had high CPU usage. Now with Win 10, it 's completely usable.

Back-ups aren't always enough

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

I have several pieces of expensive professional software that required activation installed on my work Windows 7 box. As we discovered after a sudden drive failure on the previous machine, all the back-ups in the world won't help you in that situation, and presumably it would be the same if you suddenly lost access due to the unexpected Windows 10 update and imaginary password issue described here.

This is, of course, a very good argument against accepting that sort of software activation in the first place. Sadly, in some professional markets, you literally won't have a choice if you want/need to use any of the top level software products.

Re:Back-ups aren't always enough

[pixelpusher220]

Uh, if you restore the full backup, the machine is identical to what it was. There won't be any activation issue since you're not reinstalling the software.

You may be thinking of file backups. This is talking about full system image backup so you could reformat your drive and still recover back to a working state with everything as it was. If you have mission critical software that you can't reinstall easily, you need this level of backup.

Re:Back-ups aren't always enough

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

Disk image back-ups still won't help if you actually have to replace the machine, which was the situation we were in. They're also totally impractical for frequently updated off-site storage in most cases, so file-based and database snapshot back-ups are still better for some things.

In some cases, I would agree that disk image back-ups are useful, but I'm betting that approximately 100% of people being caught out by a non-compulsory but heavily suggested Windows update wouldn't even know what one was or where to find software to perform one. I therefore think having a dig at someone who doesn't know those things and then finds their Windows 7 laptop suddenly changed to Windows 10 against their wishes, as some of your are doing, is unjustified.

Re:Back-ups aren't always enough

[pixelpusher220]

"Impractical"

Indeed they are. As is a forced upgrade to an OS that doesn't meet your needs.

Backups aren't going to be painless, just less painful than the alternative.

Frequently updated offsite storage isn't related to a system backup anyway. offsite storage is generally about saving 'data'. System Backups are about preserving the installed software and OS. You don't have to do them daily or even weekly. Bi-weekly or monthly is more than enough.

Re:Back-ups aren't always enough

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

So now you think it's reasonable for a typical PC user to run not just normal data back-ups, but also a full system image, every couple of weeks? You were defending the indefensible before, but this is just silly.

Pushing out an unsolicited fundamental change to the system is 100% on Microsoft, as surely as a burglar stealing from a home the owner forgot to lock is on the burglar and raping a pretty girl who went out for the night in a short skirt is on the rapist. These things are totally unacceptable behaviour and are never the victim's fault, regardless of whether there was anything the victim could have changed that might have led to a different outcome.

Re:Back-ups aren't always enough

[pixelpusher220]

I'm in full agreement this is ridiculous by Microsoft.

your argument stemmed from a professional situation with software you couldn't reinstall easily. You damned well should be doing system backups if it's mission critical. If your data is frequently backed up, then by all means do system backups less frequently as your risk comfort level dictates.

Now you're changing to the average user. No they don't need to do this often. They also aren't likely backing up their data either so more frequent would be the better bet to just have 1 step involved. Most users could likely get away with just doing 1 system backup. Something to allow them to roll it back.

Then again, having just 1 backup is itself only slightly better than no backups.

Re:Back-ups aren't always enough

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

I was just giving an example, and it could just as well apply to various nasty copy-protection schemes that games have shipped with over the years. As far as I can see, nothing the OP mentioned about their situation implied it was work-related, so I still think the reply by arth1 about not being able to revert was out of line.

Re:Back-ups aren't always enough

[arth1]

Backups aren't going to be painless, just less painful than the alternative.

True. The initial set-up for backup can be a chore, as it also should include swapping out a drive and do a restore to verify that it actually works. A backup that hasn't been tested for restore cannot be trusted.
Apart from that, it's pretty much set-and-forget, with a few minutes of initial setup. Most system backup programs are user friendly and guide you through the process.

Frequently updated offsite storage isn't related to a system backup anyway. offsite storage is generally about saving 'data'.

Huh? I take remote system backups of all my systems, with daily incrementals. It runs seamlessly, and I don't even have to think about it being there.
And yes, I can do bare metal restores.

Re:Back-ups aren't always enough

[dbIII]

Disk image back-ups still won't help if you actually have to replace the machine, which was the situation we were in

With linux and all the rest you just get the new machine to pretend to be the old via MAC address or various other things. Vendors are almost always happy with the situation but you can always ask permission if you think they will not be - however the ones I've spoken to demand a yearly fee for their software so it may be different with one-off stuff with the insane idea that it "belongs to the machine" and not the purchaser.

Re:Back-ups aren't always enough

[Mr.CRC]

Some of the high end software looks at drives, not just MACs to ID a machine.

Re:Back-ups aren't always enough

[Mr.CRC]

Imagine what they'd be saying if their FOSS GPU drivers got replaced by an automatic update to proprietary, or some shit like that. The sky would be red with fire.

Re:Back-ups aren't always enough

[Mr.CRC]

He's right though, that even with extremely rigorous backups and archives of data, that will only save your data. But you can be down for hours, days, or worse if the OS vendor breaks your heavily copy protected set of several $5000-$25000 applications. It's remarkable that lawsuits aren't flying already over this shit.

Re: Back-ups aren't always enough

[pixelpusher220]

Your assertion that only data is saved is I correct. A system image is just that, a direct copy of the system at a point in time. From your other reply, if you're dealing with multi thousand dollar installs not doing ( or paying someone) to do these backups is pure negligence.

Re: Back-ups aren't always enough

[Mr.CRC]

What do you do if after reinstalling the system image, the malware OS just goes ahead and upgrades itself again? There's no way out of this without re-installing an OS that serves the needs of the owner, rather than the vendor.

Re: Back-ups aren't always enough

[pixelpusher220]

hence why you have 2 or more system images. if something is mission critical, you really should have that so that you can roll back to a known good state and stop the upgrade before it starts.

Or

[drinkypoo]

There is also GWX Control Panel.

Re:Or

[gustygolf]

Yeah, but you might want to see what GRC has to say about that:

The GWX Control Panel (an early popular solution at 2.4 megabytes) was a useful first step. But it was wrong in too many ways. Its design and operation seemed ill suited to the simple task of preventing upgrades to Windows 10. It was confusing and offered an array of actions, options and status reports, when all anyone really wanted was simply for Windows to not upgrade itself and to leave us alone. Instead, the GWX Control Panel makes itself the center of attention. It needs to be "installed", is resident and persistent afterward, and it pops up all the time to tell us what a great job it's doing... which is exactly the kind of nonsense most people are fed up with in this era where "your attention" is what commercial interests all want to obtain more of. But more than anything, none of that was necessary . . .

Never10 seems a lot less obnoxious than that control panel. I chose the manual registry route myself though.

Re:Or

[jez9999]

I'm more than happy to keep GWX control panel in monitor mode in case MS somehow sneak their Win10 shit back on my system. So quite the opposite actually.

Re:Or

[drinkypoo]

I'm more than happy to keep GWX control panel in monitor mode in case MS somehow sneak their Win10 shit back on my system. So quite the opposite actually.

Yeah, that was my take on it. Eternal vigilance is a job best handled by a daemon.

Disabeling windows update is the best alternative

[CptLoRes]

I just disabled the windows update service on all my windows machines. Win10 is not an alternative for either of them, and I just will not risk it. It is a sad day when I feel safer with windows update completely turned off.

Unconfirmed

[jbmartin6]

I suppose the theory is they are randomly forcing upgrades to a small minority of users? Meanwhile forty-some percent of desktops are still running Windows 7, including the thousands I work with. None of which have force upgraded despite all the claims that MS was forcing upgrades over the last year.

Re:Unconfirmed

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

Meanwhile forty-some percent of desktops are still running Windows 7, including the thousands I work with.

I don't know for certain, but I've heard that business/enterprise users are not seeing the forced upgrade. I sure did, although I am but a lowly Windows 7 Home Premium user.

None of which have force upgraded despite all the claims that MS was forcing upgrades over the last year.

If it didn't happen to you personally then it must not really be happening.

Perhaps I just mistook my regular old, familiar Windows 7 screen for the new Win 10 login screen, and somehow forgot the new unknown login password that it is requesting. Oh, wait, no I didn't.

Re:Unconfirmed

[jbmartin6]

Sure, and since it happened to you it must be an external agency forcing it to happen and not your own mistake. I've got a dozen non-enterprise WIN 7 PCs like moms' that have never been forced to upgrade. i.e. Your anecdote doesn't confirm the notion that MS is forcing people to upgrade despite declining the upgrade. Perhaps this is what happened to you, in which case let's discuss why MS might be forcing a small percentage of machines to upgrade.

Re:Unconfirmed

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

I've got a dozen non-enterprise WIN 7 PCs like moms' that have never been forced to upgrade.

Obviously since it hasn't happened to you, it must not be happening.

-

Perhaps this is what happened to you, in which case let's discuss why MS might be forcing a small percentage of machines to upgrade.

Al I can tell you is what happened: my PC upgraded itself to Win 10 without my permission and without my requesting it to do so.

Feel free to doubt as much as you like, but this is in fact what happened.

Perhaps it's only a "small percentage of machines". I don't know. And I don't care. One machine (mine) was enough.

Re:Unconfirmed

[omnichad]

The latest tactic I've seen is a window that asks "Do you want to upgrade now or upgrade later?" And if you click either button, you get the upgrade. You have to close the box, otherwise you're agreeing to the upgrade at some point.

Re:Unconfirmed

[david_thornley]

I'm seeing Bugs Bunny asking the question of Daffy Duck (or perhaps Elmer).

Re: Unconfirmed

[omnichad]

I posted that quote on a thread to describe Microsoft not too long ago.

Re:FUCKING LIARS EVERYWHERE

[Man On Pink Corner]

Dude, all it would have taken is a simple "Don't remind me again" check box on the GWX popup.

That's all it would ever have taken to avoid all of the flaming and hatred and resentment and anger and FUD.

That's all they needed to do.

But they didn't do it.

Microsoft is simply reaping what they sowed when they (apparently) outsourced the GWX notifier to a third-rate Russian malware factory.

May 17th

[PPH]

A good day to turn your PC off and read a good book or something.

Upgrades...

[bmo]

It looks like I changed my wife's computer to a Linux install with KDE as the desktop just in time. She's been using 7, hates 8 and 8.1, and read about the idiocy with 10 and insists that's not for her.

She is an ordinary user, one who doesn't understand much about what goes on inside a computer /at all/, but I have been teaching her. Nota bene, she requested the change, so it's not like I foisted it upon her one day.

I expected some confusion/"this kinda sucks" stuff.

No problems. None. The only thing I get asked is "how do I do x."

And if she needs specific Windows stuff, I'll throw a VM on it. I have everything from WinFLP here to 7 to stick on it. And the instant any shenanigans from Redmond show up, the VM gets rolled back.

I swear, the only people I've seen have problems with Linux are so-called "windows power users" who know only which dead chicken to wave at Windows to get it to obey.

--
BMO

Same here

[NotSoHeavyD3]

It's been my experience as well that it's extremely buggy. My first clean install various things like the start menu, edge, and calculator didn't work on my main account. I did a format and clean install and now my main account the store doesn't work and neither does the app to add new users. Yes I tried that sfc /scannow and dism apps to fix it which didn't work. The weird part was that other accounts were fine and apparently the main advice if this happens is to create a new account and maybe it'll work for awhile. I can't wait to see what screws up if I do a 3rd clean install. (Yes I'm being sarcastic.)

Nunquam Fidelis

[rbrander]

...if I've got my Latin right. I can think of a lot worse people to betray than the US Marines.

Now, calm down; I don't mean betrayal as in letting the Ironborn into Winterfell, I mean as in "Just Go Microsoft for all your software and everything will work together and incidentally, our OS won't sabotage our own applications, your experience with others may vary." And so mighty Lotus 123 and WordPerfect were cast into the lake of red ink; those who switched away from them incurred painful costs. Large bureaucratic IT departments weren't certain that MS could or would sabotage Lotus and WordPerfect, but MS stuff was about as good, so why take a chance? ...and then they got exactly the same quality of software, arguably poorer, than if they'd stayed in a multi-vendor environment, and then the wonderful Windows OS hit a high point at the start of the 21st century and has been decaying in cost/benefit ratio ever since. The people who switched got nothing for it but exploited, and now this.

Sorry, old rant of course. It was just funny to read about how the military were milked like docile cows. When you're being presented with only one "rational" move after another, as carefully arranged for you, most military planners can spot an enemy manipulating them, not a friend helping them. At that point in military engagements, you have to NOT do the "rational" thing as it simply leads down a garden path to your execution. You have to kick over the card table, and take a risk...because the "low risk" option is really just a show to take you to the kill zone.

The military industrial complex is big enough to give Microsoft orders. They could have kept their heterogeneous environment and hinted that any trouble getting applications to work with it would result in them simply spending a billion in government money to create MilWin or some such.

Microsoft could have been brought to heel. But nope, the mighty Marines instead bent over and took it like men.

Honestly this to me is more like

[NotSoHeavyD3]

Complaining that it's a guys fault that he got a girl pregnant because he wasn't wearing a condom but what actually happened was a girl snuck in his room and had sex with him while he was unconscious and she got pregnant. (Because hey you know he should wear a condom while he sleeps you know, just in case.)

Re:Honestly this to me is more like

[arth1]

Complaining that it's a guys fault that he got a girl pregnant because he wasn't wearing a condom but what actually happened was a girl snuck in his room and had sex with him while he was unconscious and she got pregnant. (Because hey you know he should wear a condom while he sleeps you know, just in case.)

No, in this case you've been going steady with the whore of Babylon.
For months, at least, and probably years. You know you cannot trust her.
There's no excuse for not getting your tubes tied, and wearing a rubber.

win7

[jason777]

As a .net developer, I like windows 7. I didnt like the 8 or 10 interface. At home, I still use 7. This auto-upgrade nonsense will absolutely make me switch to Linux as my desktop again.

I'm starting to get the feeling...

[GrahamCox]

I'm starting to get the feeling, or at least a slight suspicion anyway, that Windows isn't a very good quality operating system. Anyone else noticed that?

Re:Windows?

[Z80a]

You can't stack evil like that.
There are several different forms of evil, and microsoft is being quite innovative here.

Re:FUCKING LIARS EVERYWHERE

[SlowMovingTarget]

Microsoft has made careful and deliberate strategic decisions about Windows 10.

"Look at Google, and Facebook... They're making a killing on all of that personal data and ad targeting info. We need to get in on that. Hmm... We control most of the home PCs, what if we just funnel that info back to our data centers. We make Windows an OS-as-a-Service, then no one can complain about all the telemetry we collect. We get the audio, the webcam, and every keystroke. That's even better than Facebook or Google can do."

"Man! What a jackpot! Let's do it! We have to make sure as many people as possible are running this new version. We can call it a free upgrade, people will sign up for anything if it's free. How can we get it on everyone's machine?..."

* All eyes turn toward Windows Update *

"Right."

----

This isn't an "oops, that was a bug", this is "you're going to take this 'upgrade' and like it you filthy little revenue stream."

Re:FUCKING LIARS EVERYWHERE

[arth1]

And the number of reported cases of "auto-install" is too high to dismiss.

And yet it is way too low to ascribe to a conscious effort by Microsoft. Then we would have seen it happen to millions of PCs, not dozens.

It may may be possible that there's a design flaw that affects a low number of users, like for instance a pop-up requester that steals focus and disappears automatically if a user hits "y" or return, and they never noticed it while typing, looking elsewhere. But the numbers seem too low even for that.

What Microsoft does to try to trick users into changing to Windows Panopticon Edition is despicable, no doubt about that. But with the low number of reported instances, and none documented/repeatable, I fail to buy into it actually happening automatically without users accepting it in some way, even if it is wasn't a conscious choice.

Re:Windows?

[deniable]

Copied, sorry researched from an article written in March or April.

Performance Problem

[ytene]

I'm guessing that Microsoft debated that internally and the fact that this hasn't happened is more than accidental oversight.

If I had to suggest a reason that XP/Vista systems were not forcibly upgraded to 8/10, then it would be that the hardware/performance/memory requirements of 10 are sufficiently beyond those of XP/Vista that there is a very high probability of the update causing major problems.

Microsoft are "riding the buffet" here. They know by now that what they're doing is hugely unpopular with technically savvy people wishing to stay with i.e. W7. What they don't want is a huge slab of negative publicity and early-evening-news leaders claiming, "Microsoft's forced update just broke my PC!"

Background noise is something they can cope with, but even MS would balk at that amount of negative publicity...

Re:Performance Problem

[EndlessNameless]

If I had to suggest a reason that XP/Vista systems were not forcibly upgraded to 8/10, then it would be that the hardware/performance/memory requirements of 10 are sufficiently beyond those of XP/Vista that there is a very high probability of the update causing major problems.

No, it is most likely driver issues. Windows 7 and 8 both run fine with 2-4 GB for basic use.

There were major changes to the video, audio, and networking stacks from XP to Vista. There were further changes from Vista to present, with most of the security and stability changes between Vista and 7.

As a result, there is probably a lot of hardware from the XP and Vista era that requires a driver update to function in 7/8/10. And most of that hardware is old enough to be unsupported by the manufacturer at this point.

What they don't want is a huge slab of negative publicity and early-evening-news leaders claiming, "Microsoft's forced update just broke my PC!"

Exactly.

They have done an excellent job of keeping the RAM requirements steady for over a decade in spite of numerous security and functional improvements. But they cannot address every device driver in the world.

Not happening to me.

[Plus1Entropy]

No really.. I've never received a prompt to upgrade Windows 10. I looked at Windows Update and I'm up-to-date, there are optional updates but none of them mention Windows10.

I feel left out. :(

If it works on a phone the old XP box should too

[dbIII]

Take a 10 year old computer running Windows XP and try to access the internet

Seamonkey works very well on those and has not abandoned 32bit WinXP like Firefox has.
Remember that a lot of those machines still have superior cpu power to a mid range smartphone so if the web site does not render well then something is seriously wrong - either an ancient version of Internet Explorer, other software not up to the task, or an incredibly badly designed website

Meanwhile I can't even get it

[brunes69]

Meanwhile, people with a PC perfectly capable of running Windows 10, but do not have Windows 7 or 8 (1 year older laptop running Vista) have no legal way to get it for free at all, because Microsoft won't release a non upgrade installer for us.

Can't actually be "malware-like", by def.

[sabbede]

If the intent of the software isn't malicious, it can't be malware-like in any meaningful way. There's nothing malware does that legitimate software doesn't, it just does them maliciously. For example, Chrome automatically logged me in to Slashdot. It did so by recording my login and sending it to an external server. One of the worst things malware can do, and yet nobody complains about "malware-like password managers".

Re:As they have autoupdated my neighbours win 8

[Khyber]

Smarter than your anonymous cowardly ass, who can't be bothered to read plain fucking English laws.

Nothing unexpected about the USMC

[RogueWarrior65]

Military computers are usually severely restricted on what they can do while connected to the internet if they are allowed to connect at all. Try having a Skype conference call with even a civilian contractor. "They don't let us do that," is the usual response.

Re:FUCKING LIARS EVERYWHERE

[myowntrueself]

I know my way around Windows, and I declined every Windows 10 upgrade prompt, only to wake up one morning sitting at the Windows 10 registration screen. This shit *does* happen, but for whatever reason, doesn't seem to affect every installation equally.

Based on my recent experience trying to do a clean install of Windows 10, it's extremely buggy, far beyond any previous version. It's almost as if the installer contains a random number generator that generates a different problem with each installation. Same computer, same installation media, different problem each time.

Thats the reverse of my experience. Windows 10 has been very consistent and on most of the computers I've installed it on its been better than anything else. On the one computer it won't install on its pretty consistent.

Neat how things changed.

[jnaujok]

Amazingly, when I posted this two weeks ago, I was marked down to -5 flamebait. "Microsoft doesn't upgrade you without your permission!"

M$ Monopoly Trial

[Mr.CRC]

WTF, did it just egg them on? This is worse than any other shit they did. Maybe it happened too early.

Re:If it works on a phone the old XP box should to

[FlyHelicopters]

Mobile web sites have been created to solve two problems.

1. Limited space on phones

2. Limited processing power on phones

Try browsing Yahoo's Sports page on a Pentium 4 and tell me how well that works.

Re:If it works on a phone the old XP box should to

[dbIII]

It's 2016 - low end mobile phones work with normal websites now.

Try browsing Yahoo's Sports page on a Pentium 4 and tell me how well that works

Use seamonkey or a recent firefox instead of IE abandonware.

Re:If it works on a phone the old XP box should to

[FlyHelicopters]

It doesn't matter what you use, if you want to see the whole page, it will take short of forever to render...

Now if you're using something that strips stuff from the site, maybe... but in Google Chrome or Microsoft Edge, it is largely unusable...

Try working on that attention span

[dbIII]

Above:

so if the web site does not render well then something is seriously wrong - either an ancient version of Internet Explorer, other software not up to the task, or an incredibly badly designed website

Long sentence I know, but if you make it to the end it addresses your issue. We used to give kids "Moby Dick" to read so that they could cope with more than short bullet points but I'm not sure where things stand now.