Tesla Admits Defeat, Quietly Settles Model X Lawsuit Over Usability Problems (bgr.com)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from BGR: We can talk about how innovative Tesla is for days on end. Indeed, there's no disputing the fact that the company, in injecting a bit of Silicon Valley ingenuity into the tried and true auto design process, has completely turned the auto industry on its head. At the same time, Tesla helped kickstart the EV revolution, even causing traditional automakers like Porsche and BMW to start taking electric cars more seriously. But in Tesla's zeal to move extraordinarily quickly, problems have inevitably begun to creep in. Specifically, quality control issues still seem to be plaguing the Model X. According to a recent report, avowed Tesla fan named Barrett Lyon recently returned his Model X and filed a lawsuit against Tesla arguing that the Model X was "rushed" and released before it was ready for sale. Now comes word that Tesla has since quietly settled the lawsuit. "In Lyon's lawsuit," Fortune writes, "he claimed the cars doors opened and closed unpredictably, smashing into his wife and other cars, and that the Model X's Auto-Pilot feature posed a danger in the rain. He also shared a video that shows the car's self-parking feature failing to operate successfully." Tesla's response: "We are committed to providing an outstanding customer experience throughout ownership. As a principle, we are always willing to buy back a car in the rare event that a customer isn't completely happy. Today, the majority of Model X owners are loving their cars."

Comments

Shitty refund policy

[mewsenews]

Sounds like the guy had to file a lawsuit to attain or expedite a refund, which sucks.

Notice the weasel language from the rep: "we'd be happy to buy back any unsatisfactory vehicles", not refund. Have to wonder if that means they will only refund market value of a used car.

Re:Shitty refund policy

[LordKronos]

If you could return the car brand new in the shinkwrap, never used, then perhaps a refund might make sense. But cars suffer wear and tear. The guy could have driven over a series of speed bumps at 30-40 miles an hour, doing significant damage that maynot yet be evident under a typical inspection. Plus already having an owner on the title affects value, and possibly even the next owner's ability to finance it as new rather than used. I don't think it's reasonable to expect a full refund, but I agree that "buy buy" is probably pretty misleading for the vast majority of customer.

Also, the reason he had to file the lawsuit is that he probably did want a full refund, rather than the buy back which surely was in the contract he signed (we can't go understanding what we signed, now can we).

Also, interesting thing about the guy's auto-park-fail video. First, he never shows us what's inside the garage, so who know what might be obstructing the cars path. 2nd, you notice the car stops it's autopark the very second that his motion sensitive garage light turns on. That seems like a very interesting coincidence.

Re:Shitty refund policy

[stabiesoft]

Given the car had issues almost immediately, lemon law basically says full refund. A minuscule amount would be deducted for miles driven before the FIRST problem was reported. The guy had no ax to grind, he owned a roadster and an S. Tesla was just stupid not to deal with this when he first asked. But then they have had a couple of braindead PR moments.

Re:Shitty refund policy

[swb]

If you could return the car brand new in the shinkwrap, never used, then perhaps a refund might make sense.

And how exactly will you know the car has problems if you basically need to have it trailered to a climate controlled storage facility in order to get a refund?

The whole "depreciation once you drive it off the lot" mindset is kind of a self-perpetuating myth that seems to have nothing to do with the actual material value of a car. I've bought used cars with 20k miles on them that were indistinguishable from new cars cosmetically and in every way practically measurable without disassembly, in-depth chemical analysis or the use of a microscope and they were good for the next 110,000 miles (and going strong).

I think the depreciation off the lot concept is a real economic phenomenon -- I've seen $110,000 cars mechanically perfect and guaranteed bumper-to-bumper for 3 years with 5500 miles on the odometer selling for $55,000. Yet it seems un-economic that somehow nearly half the value of the new car is lost somehow. Just who is absorbing that? Even assuming a 20% markup on the new car, *someone* is walking away from $40,000 after two months? Who, exactly, is eating a $40,000 real loss on this?

My guess is that the depreciation concept is a financial gimmick that somebody (lenders, car dealers, car manufacturers, etc) is making money on by turning phantom material depreciation into tax deductions or some other non-real loss that becomes a financial gain.

Re:Shitty refund policy

[Shompol]

A car looses 25% off resale price as soon as it drives off the lot. I agree that this is a standard heavily influenced by the old industry that demanded a fat dealer markup, but with advent of private selling websites the industry has less and less say in setting resale prices. The real reasons are as follows:

• It is natural for people to want something shrink-wrapped from the factory
• Did the previous owner change oil? Did he redline the engine? Submerged the car in water?
• Is the car being sold before its time is up because something is wrong with it?

Buying a used car carries risk and people like being compensated for taking risk. If your friend/coworker is selling a car because of death/divorce/relocation then your risk would be lower yet still little incentive to pay above market price.

Re:Shitty refund policy

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps Tesla employees are subjected to the same reality distortion field Apple generates. There are no faults. We are always right. Customer is using it wrong. Hmm, that sounds like a creepy mantra employees have to recite each day.

Re:Shitty refund policy

[AmiMoJo]

Finance deals are responsible for some of it. The finance company can take a big hit on the value of the car after a couple of years because they made money on the loan. Their business relies on quickly selling the car and they aren't really interested in running a garage or making much effort to increase the vehicle's value, so they tend to go via auction at dealer prices and buyer-beware levels of risk.

Dealers are to an extent the same. If they have a year old demo car with a few thousand miles on it they just want to shift it quickly. The manufacturer warranty is still in place but people are wary because they worry it might have been thrashed or driven badly by customers. The dealer needs to get the new model in for demos so they sell the old one off cheap.

Tesla combat this to an extent by offering a guaranteed buy-back price that is way above market rate. It's annoying because I'd buy a used Model S if they depreciated like other similarly priced cars.

Re:Shitty refund policy

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually it'll be because if they agree to a refund they're admitting liability and setting precedent for other refunds. If it went to court, the same. An out of court settlement lets them give the refund without admitting any liability.

Re:Shitty refund policy

[Anonymous Coward]

Weasel language from the rep alright...the rep who is representing Elon Musk, the 21st century's most fantasy-indulging, pants-shittingly crazy "businessman" by far. Lots of big promises, lots of big ideas...big, world-changing ideas...and what do you get? A car that can't keep it's fucking doors shut, has a self-parking mechanism that is anything but... Oh yes, Tesla is "happy" to buy back one of those Model X lemons that all their other customers are so very satisfied with, as long as it shuts up the negative publicity in a big hurry. Meanwhile Musk is off smoking bath salts and playing with his toy rockets.

Re:Shitty refund policy

[swb]

I've seen the largest depreciation on luxury cars and I'd guess that this large delta makes depreciation losses into something of a business niche itself with some complex buy-sell-lease-sell arrangement that allows the the depreciation writeoff and a high lease expense to be taken as deductions by two separate companies owned by one person which works to negate the real loss.

Re:Shitty refund policy

[deadweight]

I was the third owner of a BMW. First owner paid about $50,000 and drove 24,000 miles in two years. He sold it for $25,000 to the second owner, who drove 28,000 miles in two more years and sold it for $15,000 to me. I drove it 8 more years and sold it for $1800 with 240,000 miles on the clock. I would have got more except the tranny was beat and it had to get towed away. So....looks like the first owner got boned hard - real hard!

Re:Shitty refund policy

[Coren22]

If something is loose on a car, it should get tightened. Did you perhaps mean lose?

Re: Shitty refund policy

[sonicmerlin]

Where'd you see a 110k car with 5000 miles selling for 50k??

Re: Shitty refund policy

[swb]

Poquet Auto in Golden Valley, MN. BMW 750Li.

Re:Shitty refund policy

[Grishnakh]

I think you're missing something pretty significant.

Depreciation on a car reflects the lower market value of a used car.

The reason your $110K car only sells for half the price after 3 years and a paltry 5500 miles is because if you're a rich person who can afford a $110K car, why on earth would you want to save 10% and get a used car? If you can afford a $110K car, you're not going to care much about saving $11K. This is why luxury cars depreciate so much faster than regular cars. $20K-30K cars don't depreciate so quickly, because it's much easier to find someone who's willing to buy it used just so they can save 20% or so off the new price.

The other factor in used car prices is financing rates. When you buy a new car these days, you can get really good financing deals, even down to 0% interest. Used cars do not have these deals; the interest rates are much higher. So if you can't afford to buy a car outright with cash (or just don't want to drain your savings that way), you can get a brand-new car for the same monthly payment and loan term as a used car. So why bother buying used?

Back to your comment about "walking away from $40,000": almost no one ever does this in reality. The depreciation reflects the true market value of the car, which is how much you can get someone to pay for it. If you go buy a $110K luxury car, you *will not* find someone willing to buy it from you after two months with only a small reduction in price. What gives you the idea that anyone would? The only way you'd unload that car is by dropping the price greatly, so that you can find some middle-class person willing to spend $60K or so on a formerly $110K car, because the people who can afford to buy it new aren't going to be interested. *That* is what the huge depreciation is reflecting.

So, no, depreciation is not a "financial gimmick".

Re:Shitty refund policy

[Anonymous Coward]

The reason is the problem described as The Market for Lemons.

The short summary is that it's information asymmetry between the buyer an seller. Imagine when a new car is manufactured you have a 50% chance to get a good car worth $100,000, and you have a 50% chance to get a bad car which is worth $50,000. Because nobody knows which cars are good then you would expect them to be worth $75,000 (the expected value). So people buy them at $75,000.

Now half the people are delighted to get good cars, but half the people are upset they have bad cars. They would love to sell their just bought cars for $75,000 minus a bit of depreciation to recoup their costs because they know they are lemons only worth $50,000. However the would-be buyer in the used car market knows that "only people with lemons would want to sell them, everybody else is happy with their good cars." So the used car market assumes all the cars are lemons, so are worth $50,000. Moreover because of this only lemons hit the used car market, as who would want to sell a good car for $50,000? It becomes self-fulfilling.

And so by driving the car off the lot, you lose $25,000 of depreciation value because you have just changed it from the new car market to the used car market.

Another example you may better understand is buying a CPU you want to overclock. Would you rather buy a brand new one, or would you rather buy a used one? Same basic idea.

(Incidentally, this is the kind of thing you learn in marketing... not that that will change the trope of Slashdot that marketing is about lying and swindling people...)

Re:Shitty refund policy

[Grishnakh]

A car looses 25% off resale price as soon as it drives off the lot. I agree that this is a standard heavily influenced by the old industry that demanded a fat dealer markup

I completely disagree, and I can prove it.

Go buy a brand-new car. Now, go resell that vehicle on Craigslist. No dealer involved. You're not going to get close to the brand-new price for that car.

Resale price is what someone is willing to pay for the car, that's it. Dealer trade-in prices are lower because they have to make a profit, but private-party sales really show the true value (given that the seller can't really offer a warranty unlike a good dealer, which is one reason why used cars from better dealers cost more).

The reason you're not going to find someone on Craiglist willing to spend 98% of the new-car price for your just-off-the-lot car is because they can just go to the dealer and buy a brand-new one themselves, get one in the color they want with the options they want, and get dealer financing for it. It has little to do with the condition of the car.

Re:Shitty refund policy

[chihowa]

An out of court settlement admits the same liability and sets the same precedent as just issuing a refund immediately (ie none) and carries none of the bad PR of settling in the public eye after being threatened with a court battle. Letting it get this far was a fuck up on Tesla's part.

Re:Shitty refund policy

[mt2mb4me]

Are you sure about this? I am pretty sure most settlements have a "no fault" clause and a "STFU" clause

Re:Shitty refund policy

[david_thornley]

Last time we bought a car, we basically signed up for a 5-year loan at a trivial interest rate. Paying the car off would have been the wrong thing to do financially, since the interest rate is much below what we get on investments. That loan has a certain value in itself, and you're not getting those terms in a private resale.

Re:Shitty refund policy

[Shompol]

This is exactly what I said, there was no need for drastic measures such as "completely disagree". However, used car dealers are still major player on the market and as such indirectly affect the prices set by private parties. For example, you cannot sell a car on Craigslist for more than asked by the dealer around the corner, because the dealer also provides a 2 month warranty, etc. As such the dealers indirectly steer the prices set on Craigslist.

Re:Shitty refund policy

[Shompol]

I subconsciously stretched to o's to further stress the enormous loss of value :)

Re:Shitty refund policy

[Actually, I do RTFA]

He said there were failures in the car that went beyond it being undrivable, that it already damaged other cars. I would demand compensation for that, leasing a replacement new car for the amount of time it took the lawsuit to be resolved, legal fees, plus a punitive damage, all on top of a full refund for the car.

he reason he had to file the lawsuit is that he probably did want a full refund, rather than the buy back which surely was in the contract he signed (we can't go understanding what we signed, now can we).

There are many things you sign that are unenforceable. You cannot sign away customer protections, for a host of good reasons.

Now, you questioned if his case has merit. His suit might be BS, sure.

Re:Shitty refund policy

[Grishnakh]

Yep, that's exactly what I have, a 0.9% interest rate loan for 5 years. You can't buy a used car with that kind of rate.

Re:Shitty refund policy

[swb]

Since I posted my first post in this topic, I talked to someone I know in the car business and asked him, how, exactly, that car (BMW 750Li) could be sold in that condition for that asking price, and who was eating $40k on the deal, if anyone was really eating $40k.

His thought was that the car was bought deeply discounted to begin with -- list is $110k, but he said if the model in question is slow moving the dealer themselves will get an additional 10% from the ~18% margin they're working with, so the car probably initially sold for far less than list.

"But that still leaves you $30k in the hole.."

He said "I'm sure the new purchaser ate it." He went on to explain that the higher end luxury market is filled with people who turn over expensive luxury cars frequently, insisting on new cars and not caring about the loss on unloading them because they either just don't care or the purchase is funneled through their business and they can write off some of the depreciation, or it's an outright business expense (ie, car is leased for six months for some out of town muckety-muck they're trying to woo).

Re:Shitty refund policy

[ed1park]

I suppose you can liken it to taking a girls virginity. :)

Re:Shitty refund policy

[Anonymous Coward]

In any market economy, the value of something is determined by what people are willing to pay for it. People are willing to pay significantly more for a brand-new car than they will for a low-mileage car that has had a previous owner. The difference between the two amounts is the depreciation. The loss is absorbed by the person who buys new instead of used.

downside of "fail fast"?

[Anonymous Coward]

So this Valley Girls fail fast philosophy is not a plus if the company if you know, actually makes the mistake of producing something tangible?

Re:downside of "fail fast"?

[deadweight]

Yes - fail often fail fast is great for a HTML editor. For actual mechanical devices that cost more than $10 - not so much.

Re:downside of "fail fast"?

[cant_get_a_good_nick]

For mechanical devices that go 80 miles an hour on the expressway and can kill Star Trek actors because of bad transmission UI design, it's awful.

Re:downside of "fail fast"?

[Actually, I do RTFA]

For mechanical devices that go 80 miles an hour on the expressway and can kill Star Trek actors because of bad transmission UI design, it's awful.

In some cases, it's criminal.

(On the part of the engineer who signed off on followed plans, or the person who modified the plans).

Re: Come on Elon Musk cock smokers

[Anonymous Coward]

You must be the secret lover of the gentleman that filed the suit. Why else would you dismiss the responsibility of an individual who knowingly purchased an alpha product that isn't available to the general public.

As a principle? What about in practice?

[bobbied]

So "As a principle, we are always willing to buy back a car...[when]... a customer isn't completely happy"

So much for principle if in practice somebody had to sue you to make you do it..

Re:As a principle? What about in practice?

[LordKronos]

They are willing to buy back, which is different than the 100% refund he probably wanted.

Re:As a principle? What about in practice?

[Anonymous Coward]

In principle, principle and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.

Re: As a principle? What about in practice?

[Anonymous Coward]

FTFY: The 100% refund that lemon laws require.

Re:As a principle? What about in practice?

[Anonymous Coward]

That depends entirely on the contract now doesn't it. Some people are utter shits that are never happy. I'm reminded of the last who complained to my girlfriend's manger after she remade her coffie twice and then offered her a full refund without argument when the customer still wasn't happy. The fact is there are some incredibly special people out there and every every special flower you read about in the newspaper there will be hundreds of other dissatisfied customers who have there issues resolved without escalation.

Re:As a principle? What about in practice?

[Anonymous Coward]

So "As a principle, we are always willing to buy back a car...[when]... a customer isn't completely happy"

So much for principle if in practice somebody had to sue you to make you do it..

In practice, this is America, where lawsuits seem to be the first response to any disagreement.

Not saying anything specific about this individual case; just that I'm also not reading much into the story - it's a lawsuit, and it's been settled. Big deal. Call me when there's an actual story.

Re:As a principle? What about in practice?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not defending the guy 100%. But I am guessing a large chunk of people don't know or are misled about what a "buy back" is AND who gets to determine the value and how it is determined and how that is different from a "refund". I think if a company is going to use a buy back in marketing, it should be made clear what that means *without reading the fine print*.

When having a casual sales conversation with a hyped up company like Tesla and the guy says "And don't worry, if you ever have any problems or just don't like the car we will buy it back." A lot of people will (incorrectly) think that means they will get what they paid for it, not some other significantly lower value. Now that they have been sold, they sign all the papers without reading, especially with Tesla's image: "everyone is happy with Tesla's perfect customer service, they will take care of you".

How's that again?

[93 Escort Wagon]

... doors opened and closed unpredictably, smashing into his wife and other cars ...

The dude is married to a car?

I've heard of My Mother the Car , but this is a first.

Re:How's that again?

[Anonymous Coward]

... says the 93 Escort Wagon!

Re:How's that again?

[mcswell]

If a man without a woman is incomplete (as the Bible says), then I guess this guy decided to autocomplete.

Tesla

[Anonymous Coward]

And I was just getting worried that it's been nearly a day before we went on and on about Tesla and His Holy Lordship Musk

Tesla is still an exotic car company.

[LWATCDR]

Exotic cars are bought by enthusiasts and they forgive problems that your average Honda buyer will not. The Model X and 3 are now going into the hands of none enthusiasts and even Consumer Reports has taken away it's recommend from the Tesla.
Surprise, making cars is hard.

Re:Tesla is still an exotic car company.

[Anonymous Coward]

The Model X and 3 are now going into the hands of none enthusiasts

The 3, sure (excepting the "now" part on that), but I'm not sure anyone who'll drop a hundred grand - on one of the first batch of the first SUV from a manufacturer on its second mass-produced car model ever, no less - counts as a non-enthusiast.

Re: Tesla is still an exotic car company.

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is that Tesla is pushing itself as a "luxury car" company (like Mercedes or Porsche) when in reality you're correct in that they're an "enthusiast car" company more like Caterham or those other British niche marketers.
The disconnect between marketing and reality is the issue Tesla needs to fix.

Re: Tesla is still an exotic car company.

[fermion]

That your average Mercedes buyer will not forgive.

Anyone who owns a Honda ex-eats to make sacrifices for a cheap car.

Innovation does not excuse a crappy product. There is no way that a death trap seat is the result of innovation. It is the incompetence and arrogance of an inexperienced agent thinking they can make a car. Sort of like MS in security in the 1990's. Not being able to write software for doors in incompetence in embedded systems. Writing consumer embedded code is different from web server ode where it can be updated every day or rocket ship code where you have great control over the use case. There appears to be little engenuety here, just standard feature bloat.

In any case, as much hate dealers, this problem is a result of lack of reputable dealers. Like trying to solve a problem on a website, you have no ability to take someone that has a direct line to the manufacturer.

Re: Tesla is still an exotic car company.

[Anonymous Coward]

Thw disconnect is in the head of Musk and his fans: from tfs: "Indeed, there's no disputing the fact that ... the company has completely turned the auto industry on its head." Come on, that's not a fact, but a wild, groundless speculation.

Re:Tesla is still an exotic car company.

[hey!]

Well, I thought the door thing was overkill; as an engineer it struck me as a "neat" demo feature but a real potential PITA, and it turns out I was right.

Re:Tesla is still an exotic car company.

[ArchieBunker]

Tesla finding out that building a car from scratch isn't as easy as it sounds.

Re: Tesla is still an exotic car company.

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is that Tesla is pushing itself as a "luxury car"

Which they aren't.

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1086476_tesla-model-s-isnt-a-luxury-car-so-stop-comparing-it-to-them

Re: Tesla is still an exotic car company.

[Anonymous Coward]

You're righting hertz two reed. Police top.

Re:Tesla is still an exotic car company.

[Shompol]

Just watched the demo. How did he manage to hit his "wife and other cars" with those doors is beyond me. It opens slowly and goes mostly up. Sounds like a bullshit case and a smear campaign.

Re: Tesla is still an exotic car company.

[Carewolf]

The problem is that Tesla is pushing itself as a "luxury car"

Which they aren't.

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1086476_tesla-model-s-isnt-a-luxury-car-so-stop-comparing-it-to-them

They cost the same as luxury cars, and only traditional buyers of luxury cars can afford them. So the comparison is apt, even if Tesla's are crap compared to luxury cars.

Re: Tesla is still an exotic car company.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes they are. See for example this quote taken directly from Tesla's 2014 Annual Report, on page 5:

Model S positions it as a compelling alternative to other vehicles in the luxury and performance segments .

By saying other vehicles Tesla is very explicitly pushing the Model S in the "luxury segment", even though in reality the car doesn't measure up.

Re: Tesla is still an exotic car company.

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps it was speech-to-text? The internet must be accessible.

Re:Tesla is still an exotic car company.

[AmiMoJo]

The front driver's side door has an auto-open feature when you come near it holding the key. The rear doors can be opened remotely or via the console in the car. There are supposed to be sensors that stop them bumping into things, but a few people have said on the forums that they don't always work.

It's the same with summon. There are sensors on the car, but there are also videos on YouTube of it running over stuffed animals standing in for children. Of course you are supposed to be paying attention yourself when using summon. The problem is that Tesla tends to hype features up and send them out as software updates, and then people use them without really reading TFM.

Re:Tesla is still an exotic car company.

[mccalli]

Look how the demo is given next to another Model X. The Model X has a narrower top than the bottom, and it gives a fair amount of room at the top for this kind of things to happen - you can see the doors encroaching into the space above the widest point of the other car.

Now imagine if that other car wasn't a Model X. Perhaps it's an SUV, or a van. No such extra space at the top, nothing for those does to use. Result? Bang.

Re:Tesla is still an exotic car company.

[Anonymous Coward]

Exotic cars are bought by enthusiasts and they forgive problems that your average Honda buyer will not. The Model X and 3 are now going into the hands of none enthusiasts and even Consumer Reports has taken away it's recommend from the Tesla.
Surprise, making cars is hard.

This guy is (was?) an enthusiast. He already previously owned both a Tesla Roadster and a Model S.

Re: Tesla is still an exotic car company.

[LWATCDR]

You may be surprised just how much less reliable a Mercedes S class or BMW 7 series is than you average Honda is.

Re: Tesla is still an exotic car company.

[deadweight]

No I wouldn't. I have had 2 Mercedes, one BMW, one Porsche, and 2 VWs. "Owner Financed Development" was something I learned about the hard way. The modern 7 series and their ilk are cars you NEVER NEVER EVER want to own out of warranty.

Re:Tesla is still an exotic car company.

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, I thought the door thing was overkill; as an engineer it struck me as a "neat" demo feature but a real potential PITA, and it turns out I was right.

Tesla put out this video a while back about the Model X: "32 neat things about the Model X" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqJQFzkZsPI

I'm not an engineer but I am a product manager so I've been involved in designing products. This video made me cringe like nothing else. If you think the door was engineering overkill, just watch the video and see literally every 10 seconds another gimmick feature that's also engineering overkill. Every one of these gimmicks adds engineering cost and is a potential point of failure and maintenance and recalls that can be quite costly over the car's lifespan.

The reason Tesla did this though is because they sell an electric car, and the problem is when people buy products to feel satisfied they need some sort of direct experience with the product itself. An electric car is a cerebral experience; you can drive along turning wheels and pressing pedals and think how great it is you're not putting emissions into the air, but it's still the same driving experience as a gas car. Assuming Tesla did this on purpose and it wasn't just engineering gone wild over there, then the reason to put these in is to create a direct, physical experience that your consumer feels is futuristic, the future of cars. Yes they're all gimmicks and they're not differentiators, any car company can do this stuff, but the purpose is to make people directly experience the fact that they're now driving the future of cars.

This is also why every hybrid and EV out there looks like an ugly tub of a car; it's to differentiate the customer experience from "normal cars".

Re:Tesla is still an exotic car company.

[NetNed]

Yeah, you don't see the problems like these with other exotic cars, probably because those companies have been making cars for a LONG time. The process gets perfected over time and quality tends to increase for the most part. The media wants to put Tesla on a pedestal all the time and claim he is revolutionizing how cars are built, which anyone that knows better knows this is utter bullshit. Tesla has used talent from Detroit and elsewhere to accomplish what they couldn't on their own, but if you believe the media bullshit you'd think he and his company came up with every aspect of his cars.

Re:Tesla is still an exotic car company.

[Anonymous Coward]

No, the problem is that the summon feature is broken, and needs to be watched and babysat, and that defeats the value of the feature so it's not part of the hype and the user assumes the feature works in the first place and is surprised to learn it's hype.

Re: Tesla is still an exotic car company.

[quicks0rt]

You only need to see the stream of electric vehicle announcements other vehicle manufacturers have been making to realize that yes, Tesla has proven to the industry that there is a larger demand on electric vehicles than previously thought; that it is not merely a toy project, but a real threat going forward in coming decades. "Come on, that's not a fact, but a wild, groundless speculation." No, it's called reality my friend.

Re: Tesla is still an exotic car company.

[fermion]

Mechanically, a Honda might be more reliable. On the other hand, early Hondas rusted thought and their door latches were fragile. Safety wise, like seats that move and doors that open randomly, Mercedes is likely a better choice.

Re:Tesla is still an exotic car company.

[Shompol]

I have never seen anyone park THAT close to other cars, if only to save the rear view mirrors. Then there is an issue of opening regular doors -- the driver does need to get out. I can only imagine this being an issue if it was done on purpose.

Re: Tesla is still an exotic car company.

[deadweight]

True - a 1980s Honda is not very safe compared to a 1980s Mercedes. Now in 2016.....not so much.

Re:Come on Elon Musk cock smokers

[Anonymous Coward]

Man, jealous is an ugly shade of green today.

Come on

[Anonymous Coward]

He's totally gonna colonize Mars and stuff. Sure, airlocks will open, food won't dispense, but the species, this rock, exploration, etc etc etc

Re:Lemons

[Anonymous Coward]

Is that a bunch of articles about ONE lawsuit?

LOL.

Good thing you didn't pluralize 'car'.

Re:happy owner

[Anonymous Coward]

astroturf!

"Quietly" settling

[Anonymous Coward]

Has Tesla settled this lawsuit any more quietly than we would expect the most transparent and honest company?

Re:"Quietly" settling

[fluffernutter]

Honest companies don't let products this bad get to market.

Re: "Quietly" settling

[Anonymous Coward]

Uhhh what fucking planet are you from?

Re:"Quietly" settling

[Coren22]

So, I guess you never buy anything?

Quality Failure

[Jzanu]

Manufacturing quality isn't an accident, and failure of quality isn't an accident - it's a sign of short-sighted project development. Cars don't work like software projects so the typical slashdot geek has no concept for understanding this problem, and combined with popular support for "underdog" products many will try to sweep this under the rug. Reality is that this business model of pushing quality control onto the consumer is immoral because it puts those with the least power at the most risk. NHTSA and other groups in every country now needs to investigate everything regardless of the the media damage control.

Re:Quality Failure

[Narcocide]

Where were you with this argument when everyone is being a Windows10/Microsoft apologist?

Re:Quality Failure

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, Windows 10 was at least FREE for a year. Let's see how Microsoft does with it when you have to buy it? As for Tesla they charge a lot for their vehicles and when you do that people expect a lot in return for support. You can't just make fancy inspiring speeches about how great you are. Then not deliver on your product. Musk appears rather arrogant and a poor manager when it comes to Tesla. You don't make excuses or abuse customers who invested in your product.
You fix problems or face increasing negative views of your product.

OMG bad Tesla car!

[Anonymous Coward]

Such a travesty! If that's admitting defeat, what is the 1.4M cars Toyota recalled today?

Re: OMG bad Tesla car!

[Anonymous Coward]

Business as usual. Toyota makes and sells a lot of vehicles (like, millions vs. a few thousand teslas) with a significant profit, so that it can afford to budget money for the occasional minor issue that will slip through. Also, Toyota is likely to fix its process so that it won't happen again. In Musk's cottage factory, well... Comparing Tesla to Toyota is like comparing your local rocketry enthusiasts' club with NASA.

Cars don't work like software projects

[Anonymous Coward]

This in fact, is one of the biggest reasons why people hate computers. Software tends to be developed in the most unprofessional way that still gets it out of the door and it shows. Computers are difficult to use, crash all the time, leak your data (sometimes unintentionally), catch viruses and often don't prioritise the concerns of those most affected by them.

Reality Check

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed, there's no disputing the fact that the company, in injecting a bit of Silicon Valley ingenuity into the tried and true auto design process, has completely turned the auto industry on its head.

If that's true then why isn't Tesla among the world's largest automakers? There's no disputing the claim that Tesla has "completely turned the auto industry on its head" only if you mean that it hasn't.

Re:Lemons

[Anonymous Coward]

Only a complete moron would think that linking to a search engine result proves whatever point they're so ineptly trying to make.

dealer miles; test drive miles

[Archfeld]

I totally agree, especially in the light of the fact that a dealer can drive your 'new' car around for several hundred miles with no 'depreciation', but the instant the purchaser drives away the car is suddenly worth less ? If there was any real basis for that issue I'd demand a car with ZERO miles on it.

Re:dealer miles; test drive miles

[swb]

I'm inclined to believe there's some real psychological value to a "new" car with very few miles on it, like maybe 5% of the cost of the car but I think that number has been declining over time as cars have become more reliable and durable.

If anything, cars with no diagnosable problems and something like 5-10,000 miles ought to be MORE valuable than a "new" car. They're still new from a wear and tear and lifespan perspective, but have been largely demonstrated to be free of faulty components and assembly and have more proven reliability than a car from the factory with 3/10 of a mile on the odometer.

Re:dealer miles; test drive miles

[Shompol]

Because the dealer does this to relocate your car, so you have to trust him like you would trust a valet. A private party reselling a car after only a year probably drove into a lake on it. If a significant share of buyers were sceptical of auto dealers then the dealers would never ever drive them, at the additional cost of having a truck shuttle new cars around.

Re:dealer miles; test drive miles

[someoneOtherThanMe]

but have been largely demonstrated to be free of faulty components and assembly and have more proven reliability than a car from the factory with 3/10 of a mile on the odometer.

As a buyer, you do not know that.

Also, as a used car buyer, you lose the ability to pick color, any extras, maybe even the engine is not the one you would have chosen yourself.

Re:dealer miles; test drive miles

[swb]

As a buyer, you do not know that.

Maybe not with a '79 Chevy you don't, but with any *modern* car you take it to a good mechanic and run an ECM diagnostic, compression test and look for any broken suspension components or evidence of repair and you'll know really well what kind of condition its in.

Plus with any late model car (1-2 years old) it still carries the bulk of the factory warranty and most dealer-sold cars are certified and carry an extension of the factory bumper to bumper warranty. Unless its a total lemon (unlikely in my experience), there's almost no mechanical risk if you do your homework.

Also, as a used car buyer, you lose the ability to pick color, any extras, maybe even the engine is not the one you would have chosen yourself.

Unless you're just buying the first one off the lot you find, of course you do. You either shop for the color and trim level/options you want or you go to the damn dealer and tell the used car manager what you want and they will find it for you. Here in Minneapolis we have a used only car dealership that does this. We emailed a salesman what specific Acura MDX we wanted and within two weeks it was on hand in the color and options we wanted. 1 year old, 12,000 miles on the clock and $8,000 less than a brand new model. Absolutely mint condition.

If you have a bee in your bonnet for some weird factory-ordered combination of features you can only find in a new car, you will be paying for that privilege in spades from a new dealer anyway. You will have little flexibility in price and will probably pay a premium for that. That's fine if you're buying a collectible car or what you need for your life to be complete, but otherwise there's little reason for that because all the options you would likely want already are built into most anyway. The maker already know what options people want and put them into standard trim levels. Even if some widget is missing, it's often cheaper to buy without it and find the factory part cheap on the internet and have it installed with a common trim level.

Re: dealer miles; test drive miles

[Anonymous Coward]

Except you don't have to buy it

Fallacies

[Princeofcups]

"there's no disputing"

Since when does Slashdot allow logical fallacies in the summaries?

Re:Fallacies

[Narcocide]

Now under their 3rd independent corporate ownership. I notice there are a lot bigger ads and a lot less trustworthy advertising partners too now.

Business 2016

[fluffernutter]

The new way of doing business... screw people over and hide behind the promise of technological innovation. Are we that desperate for new technology that we are willing to allow companies to break long held assumptions about not taking a customer's money if they are not satisfied?

Re:Lemons

[Anonymous Coward]

They reading the articles. Hint they are about more than one law suit.

http://www.autonews.com/article/20140716/RETAIL/140719878/tesla-settles-lemon-law-case-with-wisconsin-man-for-$126836
http://bgr.com/2016/05/27/tesla-model-x-lawsuit-lemon-problems-refund/

Re:Lemons

[Anonymous Coward]

http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/18j6qmge1s70ajpg/ku-bigpic.jpg
http://static.autoblog.nl/images/wp2015/tesla-trap-fail.jpg
https://transportevolved.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Transport-Evolved-Model-X-Unintended-Acceleration-2-700x525.jpg
http://www.macitynet.it/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Tesla-Crash.jpg

quality

[siamesevodka]

Think family truckster Clark!

Re:happy owner

[Shompol]

I noticed a few negative posts with outlandish claims against Tesla appearing within seconds after every Tesla-related post. If this is an astroturf then this is the first pro-tesla one that I have seen.

Is Tesla really viable?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think clearly Tesla is a revolutionary company that makes electric vehicles. But the questions keep coming up if they can sustain the company only making electric vehicles? Every other auto maker who makes a EV has another line of vehicles in the mainstream market for it's core profits. In other words those companies can afford to make a EV and not worry about failure so much. Tesla has painted itself into a box of success or fail and now has a track record of having to bail out Musk battery company and these production failures. This could cause some major delays in getting the model 3 into production.

Information asymmetry = depreciation

[sjbe]

I totally agree, especially in the light of the fact that a dealer can drive your 'new' car around for several hundred miles with no 'depreciation', but the instant the purchaser drives away the car is suddenly worth less ?

The biggest reason for this is the problem of information asymmetry. When the dealer sells you a "new" car, that carries certain warranties and guarantees of condition along with it. You can reasonably assume that the vehicle hasn't been used for drag racing and that even with a few tens of miles on it that it is for all practical purposes is as good as the factory can make it and you cannot find one in meaningfully better condition anywhere. The moment you drive it off the lot as a new owner all that information about how the car has been used is immediately lost. We have no idea how you as the new owner have treated the vehicle or how it has held up or what problems you might have experienced. A new buyer has no idea why you are selling it and even if you tell them they can't be sure you aren't lying. Ergo, the vehicle is worth less than before because of that information asymmetry.

Basically if you are selling a car with 1,000 miles on it, the buyer has to ask why you are selling it with so few miles. Is there something wrong with the car? The buyer can never be sure and so the buyer's willingness to pay will generally be less than it might be for a "new" vehicle.

Software development model doesn't work for cars

[zerofoo]

Release early and often simply does not work in the real world with physical goods that have warranties and other assorted legal obligations.

I salute the software industry for writing EULAs that absolve the manufacturers of any responsibility for defects - that was an amazing coup - and resulted in software products sucking terribly.

Applying these types of practices to stuff like cars is going to get these companies sued - as Tesla is now figuring out.

That said, I am not canceling my Model 3 reservation. I'm a tech guy and I'm willing to live with bugs to get something really interesting. Time will tell if the general public is willing to make such accommodations.

You can never be sure

[sjbe]

Maybe not with a '79 Chevy you don't, but with any *modern* car you take it to a good mechanic and run an ECM diagnostic, compression test and look for any broken suspension components or evidence of repair and you'll know really well what kind of condition its in.

Not necessarily true. It's not terribly hard to hide many mechanical problems. And many problems can be "repaired" without leaving a shred of evidence. And even the best mechanic may not find every problem with a vehicle. Sure, some things are obvious but many aren't. Intermittent electrical problems are something I've dealt with on a few VW vehicles I've had but no mechanic would be likely to run into them. I've sold several cars that I considered to be unreliable but you'd never know it even with a fairly detailed inspection.

Let me give you an example I saw about 15 years ago on how problems can be hid. A guy I used to work with had a car that had some cylinders that were making bad noise and showing signs of impending failure. He decided he needed some new wheels so what he did was to get a couple of quarts of motor honey which temporarily hid the problem. Then he drove it straight to the dealer, negotiated for a new vehicle, trade in his "runs great" car, and drove away with a new vehicle. Now the dealer examined the car but they didn't notice the problem and the dealer had their people inspect the vehicle, including mechanics. And I'm not surprised the problem got overlooked. Unless the dealer was willing to do a compression test and a few other tests as well, they wouldn't find the problem nor was there any hint that the vehicle was in bad condition.

Plus with any late model car (1-2 years old) it still carries the bulk of the factory warranty and most dealer-sold cars are certified and carry an extension of the factory bumper to bumper warranty. Unless its a total lemon (unlikely in my experience), there's almost no mechanical risk if you do your homework.

Typically these days the amount of depreciation is more dependent on the brand and model than anything else. Toyota's will depreciate less than Fords as a general proposition. Certain models of car will depreciate barely at all while others lose their value faster than a gallon of milk.

Re:You can never be sure

[swb]

I guess it depends on the mechanic you use.

When I bought my Volvo, I sought an independent Volvo-specific shop. The car was "Volvo Certified" which meant it had been gone over by their people and as a lease return under warranty from that same dealership, they also had the complete service history of the car (which they printed out for me). Since it was a lease and under warranty, the previous owner had zero incentive to hide defects and since it had an additional 4 years of warranty (2+2) there was little reason for the dealer to sell it with problems since they would be eating the problems.

That being said, my independent pre-inspection mechanic noted that the bumper fascia had been replaced -- he showed the parts label mismatches between the original labels throughout the car and the replacement part and where trim tab hardware was different vintage. Due the absence of any notable collision damage, their estimation was the front end got cosmetically dinged in a parking lot and the owner paid out of pocket for the bodywork vs. the insurance claim which would get tied back to the car's history and possibly affect lease return.

With a little bluster, I turned that into another $750 off my negotiated price since I could point out the alteration and beat them up over the "value" of their certified inspection.

At a certain point, though, modern cars have so many sensors that it's pretty hard for something to be seriously flawed without it throwing codes. A decent shop that can read vendor codes (my shop had the same factory diagnostics as the dealer) can identify even minor problems that aren't visible, and with a compression test and a good and detailed visual inspection for mechanical flaws it's really hard to hide a whole lot of serious problems. Maybe not impossible, but between that and the warranty you'd be hard pressed to have a lemon.

With a brand new car? It's anyone's guess until 10,000 miles. I've known two people recently with bought-new problem cars. One ended up suing the dealer and getting a complete refund and the other the dealer just admitted it was a problem car and gave them a replacement.

Re:You can never be sure

[Drethon]

Like the '08 impala with 15k miles I test drove a few years back at a used car dealer. It idled at 2k RPMs when most impalas were in the 500-750 range. I thanked them for the test drive and haven't gone back to that dealer since then.

Re:You can never be sure

[Anonymous Coward]

This isn't really true. There are a lot of things that are problems down the road that don't show up in newer vehicles. One of the most common is "not enough grease in the zerg fitting / bearing". Some of these are just nickel and diming the consumer (if the failure rate for a greased part is longer then the warranty life, then reduce grease at the factory until it is between one and two sigma of the warranty date), and some are general manufacturing errors.

The best way to avoid are:

-Never buy a car that is a new design. Cars that are about to be redesigned are the best because they have the most production learning built in and most purchasers are waiting for the new model (meaning you can get a good deal).

-If going used, know the previous owner. The actual previous owner--as in meet them. Never by a used car from a single male between16-36 (there's a reason why their insurance rates are high--and they invariably tinker with the car regardless of if they're racing, gang-banging, a farmer, an engineer, or CompSci. In the US it's nearly a God Given Right to tinker with your car and people are as passionate about it here as firearms and stances on immigration). Cars from old people can be great if they're not a litany of collision damage.

-Don't get add ons--the fewer accessories the fewer things that can fail. This goes double for things which don't have a backup, like power windows (power locks by contrast have a manual backup). Knowing how to drive a manual and getting one also fits in here since most manuals don't need oil coolers or internal pumps or other things to break. (While automatics don't have synchromesh dogs, they do in fact have [multiple, smaller] clutches and they do wear out eventually too!)

hard lessons

[Gravis Zero]

I think Telsa has learned some hard lessons from the Model X. They promised too many features without enough time and in the end resulted in an inferior product. They may be software bugs but when your software controls hardware, it has real consequences. I also hope they learned to not fight people trying to get a refund because there is no benefit in fighting it.

Can I sue hyundai when I slam the door on my hand?

[Shadow of Eternity]

Or is it just Tesla that gets held to a standard no other car manufacturer is held to.

Re: Come on Elon Musk cock smokers

[Anonymous Coward]

You must be the secret lover of the gentleman that filed the suit. Why else would you dismiss the responsibility of an individual who knowingly purchased an alpha product that isn't available to the general public.

Wait, what the fuck? Are you actually comparing a $100k automobile with alpha software? I knew Steam Greenlight and Early Access were going to damage the games industry, but I had no idea it would also damage the automobile industry as well. If the X is an "alpha" quality automobile, what the fuck is it doing on the road? Does the NHTSA know about this? Should I run away from the model X if I see one, before it possibly explodes into a huge fireball, or it tries to autopark over my children as it menaciningly swings its doors open and closed? What terror lies within the "alpha" quality code of a semi-autonomous vehicle?!?

Turned the automotive industry on it's head

[Anonymous Coward]

"Indeed, there's no disputing the fact that the company, in injecting a bit of Silicon Valley ingenuity into the tried and true auto design process, has completely turned the auto industry on its head."

What? How does this make sense? 98% of cars on the road are still made in Mexico or Japan or the US or China, shiiped via car carriers to their destination, bought at a dealership, and filled up at gas stations. The supply chain remains the same, the procurement methods are the same, the costs are the same, the financing is the same... what in the industry has turned over?

The auto industry is not completely turned on it's head, that's a bunch of baloney. It's made more car makers experiment with electric cars sure, they even outsell Tesla by significant margins with EVs; Tesla's sales are actually mid-tier relative to the Volt. But EVs still make up a tiny, tiny percentage of the cars sold in the US and even tinier when you factor in globally.

There's still no real electrical infrastructure, I still can't drive an EV up and down the West Coast without several major stops to recharge adding significant time to my drive, there's no wide scale adoption to replace all the gas station infrastructure, and oil company stocks are going down due to the glut of supply from fracking, not EVs.

Stop buying into Tesla's branding BS and look at the real world.

Re:Lemons

[Anonymous Coward]

Gawker assets? Yeah I am passing on that link
Autoblog.nl oh my lets get nes from a blog and consider it gospel.
transportevolved and macitynet.it? Yes both well known reputable sources.

The question I have is why did you link us four pictures with no explanation of what happened? For all we know those four drivers were idiots.

Anyone notice the light in the video?

[Muntzsky]

Watch the video linked in the summary and the moment before the car stops, a light comes on in the garage. This light probably messes with the cameras/sensors. Not making any excuses for Tesla, just making an observation.

Lemon Laws

[Anonymous Coward]

Car makers buy back defective cars all the time. Happened to my friend's Honda Accord just a couple years ago. Not a big deal.

speaking as a dual lexus household

[Anonymous Coward]

our tentative plan is to replace wife's 07 es w/a 3 when they're available but this definitely gives pause. ev should have a huge natural reliability advantage over ic but toyota's been at this a LONG time & lexus has set an awfully high bar for quality & longevity. I suspect if achieving this w/ev were easy they, mercedes, etc would have done it a long time ago...

Re:Lemons

[Coren22]

All the pictures are of people getting into accidents, except the last one which was an example of an actual issue with a sensor dead spot found by an idiot that doesn't know which side of the road to park on or how not to engage the autopark feature when parking. Hint, the trailer was hit in the front where the 5th wheel pin is, which means the car is parked backwards.

Oh, but we could!

[Anonymous Coward]

Deny that, and we do! Innovation has to be more than theory, and Tesla has been pretty spotty about delivering actual, fully-functional alpha level products. The sad trend in the valley to release betas that companies know aren't fully baked as functionial products is just the tip of the iceberg of unethical practices, too. It's all in name of profit, not innovation or real utility. I would actually say Tesla are a shining example of how the tech sector is losing its way (and accepting government/tax payer money to fund themselves is just crass).

How many are we talking about?

[Anonymous Coward]

So one guy is having all kinds of problems and decided he didn't want the car. If it was that bad, why haven't there been more articles or posts from people complaining like this guy? I've looked and have not found much. I'd like to give the guy the benefit of the doubt, but something doesn't add up here.

Re:Lemons

[Anonymous Coward]

How much does Musk pay you to suck his dick, shill?

My mother, the car?

[abmw]

Well, it does say in the article, "smashing into his wife and other cars", Maybe it also smashed into a certain Ford Model A made famous in the 1950's and 60's....Mother???

Don't buy. Rent

[ForMeToPoopOn]

I always drive leased cars, using 3 or 4 years contracts. I now drive a Toyota, leased by Toyota Financial, I always check it for regular maintenance at the same dealership that leased it to me. If there's a problem with the car, it's Toyota's problem...

New VS used

[phorm]

" I've bought used cars with 20k miles on them that were indistinguishable from new cars cosmetically and in every way practically measurable without disassembly"

You answered your own question in the last part. Yes, a car with 20,000 miles might look new, and be functionally intact. Realistically, you don't know what's happened since it left the lot. It's actually not all that hard to replace certain parts of a car to hide damage from a vehicular accident, but that accident could leave other issues that will cause you pain later down the road, whether it's a core frame component with damage that slows grows over time, or a dent/crease that was well filled and painted but later starts to rust out.

I'm not generally huge on new VS used, but at least with new I have a fairly good assurance that I'm getting a vehicle which is accident-free and hasn't had some form of "tinkering" from stock.

Used Model X's cost more than new

[Anonymous Coward]

A quick search for used Tesla X's shows that they are selling for more than list. The guy probably could have turned a profit on it.

Re:Lemons

[Anonymous Coward]

Lemons every fucking one is a lemon. Again only morons buy piece of shit electric cars. Thankfully natural selection will take their idiocy out of the gene pool.

Re:Can I sue hyundai when I slam the door on my ha

[Actually, I do RTFA]

When Hyundai installs auto-door slammers, and then their hand detection unit fails to notice your hand in the way, of course you'll sue.

Re:Can I sue hyundai when I slam the door on my ha

[Anonymous Coward]

no, but you could sue Hyundai if their car had a system that automatically slammed the door on your hand
but it's true, Tesla gets held so a standard so much lower than any other car manufacturer that it's almost criminal.

Re:Lemons

[Coren22]

Uh huh, and you will be driving nothing in 20 years since you refuse to drive electrics.

Also, there is a pretty decent definition of Lemon, and you have abused it without reason.