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Tesla Owner In China Blames Autopilot For Crash (usatoday.com)
An anonymous reader quotes a report from USA Today: The owner of a Tesla Motors Model S sedan in China reportedly said his vehicle crashed into a car on the side of the road while the vehicle's Autopilot system was engaged, but the automaker said the driver was using the system improperly. Luo Zhen, 33, of Beijing told Reuters that his vehicle collided with a parked car on the left side of a highway, damaging both vehicles but injuring no one. He criticized Tesla sales people for allegedly describing the vehicle as "self-driving." "The impression they give everyone is that this is self-driving, this isn't assisted driving," he told Reuters. In the new case in China, Tesla said the Model S was "following closely behind the car in front of it when the lead car moved to the right to avoid hitting the parked car." "The driver of the Tesla, whose hands were not detected on the steering wheel, did not steer to avoid the parked car and instead scraped against its side," Tesla said Wednesday in a statement. "As clearly communicated to the driver in the vehicle, Autosteer is an assist feature that requires the driver to keep his hands on the steering wheel at all times, to always maintain control and responsibility for the vehicle, and to be prepared to take over at any time."
I never heard about people being that stupid when cruise control was introduced into the mainstream. Autopilot, as it stands, is a smarter form of cruise control (it basically helps you maintain the speed without your foot on the pedal but it's a bit fancier than a fixed speed)
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That really needs LIDAR.
We get it, Musk will blame the driver for not avoiding the collision, yeh yeh EULAs etc. But that doesn't fix the problem. That visual system does not work faultlessly, it is just diffing the two scenes to try to determine a 3D world view, and it clearly does not 'see' the world, it sees the deltas as the car moves. So they need to add LIDAR so it can see objects distances without trying to determine them with time deltas.
From my understanding of driving conditions in China, it would take a pretty miraculous AI to prevent accidents there. It seems as though these driving assists and self-driving cars are going to have to be region-specific.
the system even says to keep hand on wheel when you turn it on. its driver error when you dont. theirs a reason it can be overridden at anytime.
http://www.thecountrycaller.co...
I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
Tesla has opened Pandora's box. They will have to defend every one of these 'gray' situations, and this is only the beginning. Personally I feel if they release a heavy machine into the world, and some people have problems controlling it properly, then they owe some responsibility to ensure the public that those people have been trained and have been tested and certified for use of Autopilot. A page in the manual isn't enough. Give them pilot training for Autopilot.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
The have a sensor tha detects if hands are on the wheel.
They say auto pilot should always be used with hands on wheel.
Why don't they just disable it if you take you hands from the wheel?
This seems like exactly the sort of situation lane assist should handle. And if "auto pilot" was engaged, shouldn't it have prevented the driver from following too closely, as Musk is implying was the case?
#DeleteChrome
No matter how many times you warn them, teach them, educate them - drivers will ALWAYS assume these system are more capable than they are. Especially given the instinct to blame anyone but themselves. I've always had a hard time visualizing an intermediate step between fully automatic and fully manual driving; and it appears that's coming true.
Damn, I can't believe there are that many idiots out there that want to blame a computer for their lack of control over their vehicle.
Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
Car driver gets in accident. Blames anything and everything for the accident besides himself. And in other news, water is wet.
It seems we'll need to introduce licences for autopilot features. Until a driver can demonstrate they're not stupid, they are not licensed to sue it.
Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
Well Microsoft Kinnect comes to mind as a laser distance imagining system and that's not expensive. So I don't believe cost is an excuse, even if it was a $30,000 car they should be able to add LIDAR.
I have a Phantom 4 drone, it has two front facing 'collision avoidance' sensors, that do exactly the same trick TESLA does of visually diffing images and determining motion and distance from those. They mostly work, except when they don't.
Universal and universally buggy and universally hated
This is not a signature.
Just because someone can demonstrate ability to test, doesn't necessarily mean they are intelligent.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B - D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
You're driving it wrong.
If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
Well, they dont need to be intelligent. As long as they can demonstrate the ability to use autopilot correctly (even in simulated crashes), they can be allowed to use autopilot in tesla.
Steering wheel? You're holding it wrong.
Obviously (I hope), we can all see that these autopilot systems have corner cases up the wazoo
It won't be possible to have fully autonomous driver-less cars on a normal road infrastructure without first having perfected human-like AI which can adapt to completely new and unexpected situations.
"a device that steers a ship, aircraft, or spacecraft in place of a person" -- Merriam-Webster
Gee, how could anyone be confused about that?
We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
I think the point is that merely possessing the ability, and demonstrating it on isolated demand, does not mean they will necessarily USE IT consistently.
Keeping your hands on the wheel doesn't mean much. The manufacturers that require this may want us to think it is a proxy for paying attention, but it is not.
And they will expect it to clean their teeth, cook their foot, massage their feet and do their laundry.
So does that mean that Tesla will refuse to sell to people with one or zero hands?
PR Policy - Blame Customers
Temp Result - Delay Lawsuits
Real Result - No Sales
For those that say it needs to not exist until it's perfect, it's like any Beta software. Mostly good but still some kinks. Tesla wouldn't be able to reasonably find all the kinks without help, and you have to Opt-In (with $5000) to try the Beta. You might have a case blaming Autopilot if your Tesla crashed, driving itself, without you in it, but Tesla specifically permits that only on private property for liability. Otherwise it's an imperfect driving aid, though as Tesla points out, has had fewer fatal accidents per 100000 miles than the American average. Don't blame Autopilot because you valued watching DVDs over safe driving practices, like, not hitting semis.
For those that say it needs to not exist until it's perfect, it's like any Beta software. Mostly good but still some kinks. Tesla wouldn't be able to reasonably find all the kinks without help, and you have to Opt-In (with $5000) to try the Beta. You might have a case blaming Autopilot if your Tesla crashed, driving itself, without you in it, but Tesla specifically permits that only on private property for liability. Otherwise it's an imperfect driving aid, though as Tesla points out, has had fewer fatal accidents per 100000 miles than the American average. Don't blame Autopilot because you valued watching DVDs over safe driving practices, like, not hitting semis.
"Owner In China Blames Autopilot For Crash" ...Or even a clash. Brooddy Autopirot
What's the deal? This stopped being "news" after the first two.
All the stories are alike:
1. Driver engages "autopilot"
2. Driver takes hands off wheel / stops paying attention to the road.
3. Driver crashes; blames "autopilot" instead of own stupidity.
o rook, the car crashed by itself, i sweearrrr
figures
I am a dipshit and did not read the instructions that I should actually hold the steering wheel because the AI is assist only, not "be a wanker while I drive you to work"
People are either too stupid or deliberately abuse the feature to extort money from the company.
Humanity isn't ready for "assisted driving" because whenever something goes wrong, it's the system's fault.
When we have a car in which you can sleep until you arrive at your destination, we can call it "autopilot". Until then, just enable "adaptive cruise control" and be done with it.
Crivens! I kicked meself in me own heid!
Hello everyone please help me
So I have a problem with drivers complaining when this system is abused and the driver blames the feature. Yes I believe Tesla oversold this as an autopilot system but I also believe many owners wanted it to be true. I think we have a certain driver obsessed here with the technology and wanting to prove it works. Or maybe even taking for granted its error proof. Unfortunately the string of accidents has not deterred idiot Tesla drivers from recognizing it's short comings. Nor has it taught Tesla to rethink the technology, or stop blaming the driver for a obviously flawed system they are calling autopilot. Which even in a aircraft is not anymore than a sophisticated cruise control. This latest China incident clearly could have been avoided had the driver intervened and made a steering adjustment.
Looks like this "feature" and these idiot drivers will be the downfall of Tesla, maybe even future self-driving cars.
No, that's not Elon Musks response. Elon Musks response would be something like this:
"Let's wait for the blackbox data of that car to come in and then tear this guys story to pieces in a very calm and professional manner like we do with most of these incidents".
There you go, FTFY.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
Sterling Archer: I thought you put it on autopilot!
Rip Riley: It just maintains course and altitude! It doesn't know how to find THE ONLY AIRSTRIP WITHIN A THOUSAND MILES SO IT CAN LAND ITSELF WHEN IT NEEDS GAS!
Sterling Archer: Then I, uh... misunderstood the concept.
Seriously, though, the problem for Tesla isn't just that people will misuse the system. The problem is, even when the system isn't at fault, and the driver knows it wasn't at fault, there will still be a subset of people who will try to lie and blame the system in order to weasel out of fines/criminal charges/general responsibility, because it's new enough, controversial enough, and makes for a sufficiently good sound bite that some media outlet will start screaming bloody murder about it being Tesla's fault, and other media outlets will pick it up and run with it without any form of fact checking.
C'mon, it's a guy behind the wheel. His wife obviously wasn't in the car, so who else is there to blame? Himself??? Get real.
"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
That's clearly a case of yellow journalism.
Some arrogant asshat sells a car and claims it drives itself and then it crashes while in self driving mode and its not their fault? Who do these clowns think they are? Your turn loose a product obviously not ready for market into the population and expect all of us be targets of these things while you debug them? Seriously these asshat should be sued out of existence for being A) so arrogant B) so stupid C) so indifferent to human life. There are product liability laws for a reason. I don't care how GROOOVY you think your widget is. If you build a car that supposedly drives itself it damn well better fucking work!
What the hell is "Assisted Steering" and why name the feature "Autosteer" when it does NOT in fact, automatically steer the car out of danger?
Granted the driver bears the bulk of the responsibility for being a dumb ass, but the car companies are getting out of hand with this stuff too...
This whole thing, to me, points at a Licensing issue.
Currently, you need a driving licence to drive a car, but cars are now so diverse that just having a standard license is no longer adequate as it doesn't prepare people to use more advanced cars.
Even pilots need certification when changing between different planes, e.g. from Boeing to Airbus because they are so different.
The only reason things haven't been worse is that the people that can afford the fancy cars tend to be richer and smarter and can figure out things themselves, but as these cars filter down to the regular idiots that barely passed their tests (Assuming they survive that long; I've noticed modern cars seem to have less longevity than older ones)
Just the same way there are multiple levels of license for e.g. HGVs and such, I think we're at the point where it is worth looking at these things for cars too. I've long been a proponent that, on getting your driving license, you should not be able to just go out and drive e.g. a Veyron, which (if you had the money, for the insurance more than the car), you could do on the current system. Cars should be graded and have different licenses for each IMHO just as you do with nearly every other vehicle (Even motorcycles have this FFS!).
Tesla Says: ... ..."
... anything ... that involves glancing somewhere not on the road in front of them, and involves moving one or both hands from the wheel?
"
"As clearly communicated to the driver in the vehicle, Autosteer is an assist feature that requires the driver to keep his hands on the steering wheel at all times, to always maintain control and responsibility for the vehicle, and to be prepared to take over at any time."
Now, I hesitate to say this out loud, as this is a Nerd website, but this instruction is beyond silly. There is zero chance any human with a working brain is going to adhere to this instruction, and although I understand how it comes to be, it's a testament to a lack of even basic comprehension of a User Interface that is so unfortunately common amongst the nerdy citizens of the world.
Let's imagine this instruction in use. I'm driving my so-equipped vehicle:
Situation: Nothing unusual happening. Both hands on the wheel, Mind and Body attentive to the road. Alert and ready at any moment to take over from the auto driver. Car driving itself.
Repeat every second of a 20 minute commute for a thousand days. Or three days.
Now, what human, in possession of the faculties required to actually have a paying job and a drivers' license, is not going to become bored with this scenario, and at some point do something
And, after testing the waters, so to speak, and not dying in a fiery crash, won't do it again, only for a bit longer and perhaps with hands much further from said wheel and eyes much removed from the road ahead?
There cannot be a "half-way" system, such as that installed in the Tesla S, that drives, but does not drive, the car. It simply won't work in the manner the instructions say it should work.
Cruise control is so far from true autopilot that it's perfectly clear you're still driving the car. But add lane keeping and some people, some of the time, will treat the car as if it were self-driving. Telling them that they still have to drive the car won't make much difference.
Clearly we have the technological capability to create self-driving cars that are safer than the vast majority of drivers on the road. But for whatever reasons -- retail cost or risk management -- manufacturers aren't quite ready to jump in all the way. Introducing self-driving functions piecemeal is bound to create a transition period in which users misuse those functions. Because that's what users do: they use things the way they can, not the way you tell them to.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Lots of accidents come down to just bad timing. Something like a two lane road for example with no shoulder (think Kentucky driving), obstruction of some kind happens (turtle, squirrel, bike, falling tree, mechanical fail, ice, other driver sneezes....whatever). Maybe there's a pot hole and one car "gets loose in the corner". Suddenly, there's no clear path for the vehicle without hitting something, and there's simply not enough room for two cars running at speed, and no time to brake/accelerate. What then? Auto-pilot turns control over to a driver watching a movie at the last second? Or maybe you just say -- well.....it was a no win.....would have happened anyway.
Humans suck at driving, but some of them can anticipate a problem or traffic pattern before it happens and no accident happens. I'm not sure you're ever going to be able to solve this one without building enclosed "tubes" for roads with a predictable traffic management system. Trains seem to pile into each other, even go head on from time to time -- and that happens with a control grid.
Autopilot sounds more sexy vs Drive Assist, which is what it is. Having said that, the user manual the onboard dash do display ample warnings about keeping hands on the steering wheel at all times.
We can build the best and smartest cars, but will never be able to compensate for the amazing ingenuity of stupid people to do stupid stuff.
This blame game will continue, its easy to blame the car and its driving a assist system. A challenge all car manufacturers will have to face going forward.
Meanwhile, over a thousand people per day are dying in traffic accidents worldwide. SDCs likely could prevent most of those. You want that progress held up because, what, 3 people have died in a few weeks? Get some sense of perspective.
Yes. Get it through your thick fucking head.
Dear Tesla Owner engaged in the operation of a motor vehicle without hands on the steering wheel:
The accident is 100% your fault.
Please surrender your driver's license as you are not worthy of exercising its privileges.
Next time you want to blame the car because you took your hands off the controls think back to how tough driver's education courses were the first time... and reach into your Tesla-affording-pockets to pay the other guy's damage bill.
In the future try to keep your hands on the controls (or surrender your driver's license and sit in the passenger seat) and keep the blame to yourself when you're the driver.
Ehud
The problem is that on the Tesla it's marketed as "car will drive while human is ready to override". But that doesn't work, people will be distracted and not actually ready to take over.
Really, it should be "human is driving and car will in some cases help avoid an accident". The latter isn't as sexy as the former, however, even though it more accurately matches up with human nature. In this case it's basically like a smarter version of cruise-control/ABS.
We already require licenses for cars, and your argument would apply there as well.
Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
Ask your car manufacturer which the driver is supposed to do:
1. Wait to see if the autopilot will react to a situation, and if it doesn't, then (belatedly) react yourself. (Which is probably too late.)
2. Keep alert and react as fast as you can, yourself, not presuming to trust the autopilot. (In which case, why enable the annoying thing? It's more of a hindrance.)
BTW, regarding this particular situation, if the car in front of you is blocking your view of a stopped vehicle, and suddenly swerves to avoid it at the last moment, then I figure autopilots and humans will be equally ineffective.